Latest / 775 Alive / Ep016: Lithium Loop Liberation (with guest Caleb Cage)

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Ep016: Lithium Loop Liberation (with guest Caleb Cage) · 775 Alive

• 0:00
  Crystal: Today we have our first guest. Scott: Yeah. Looking forward to it?
• 0:00
  Crystal: Today we have our first guest. Scott: Crystal: Yes. He's probably one of the coolest people in Nevada. He's served like three governors. I can't wait to talk to him.
• 0:08
  Crystal: Today we have our first guest. Scott: Scott: Yeah. He's been great. I've years since we met on Nevada Humanities. So, it'll be a good discussion.
• 0:12
  Crystal: Today we have our first guest. Scott: Crystal: Humble brag. [rolls eyes][intro music]
• 0:27
  Scott: Welcome to 775 Alive, a podcast looking at world, national, state, and local issues from the perspective of rural Nevada. I'm Scott Gavorsky.
• 0:31
  Scott: Crystal: And I'm Crystal Newton.
• 0:35
  Scott: And we're excited today. We're actually going to have our first guest here joining us. We want to revisit some of the stuff we did in an earlier episode on mining, particularly the lithium loop. So joining us today is Caleb Cage. A bit of the disclosure. I worked with Caleb a bit years ago, sitting on the board of Nevada Humanities is where I first met him. But Caleb's going to be joining us to talk about the lithium loop concept. He's the owner and . . . or founder and owner of the Arc Dome Strategies and also sort of the executive director of Nevada Battery Coalition which is promoting lithium. Welcome.
• 1:07
  Scott: Caleb: Thanks, Scott and Crystal.
• 1:13
  Crystal: I love that you're here because everyone has heard about the lithium mining in Nevada and nobody really gets to meet the people that are forging the pathway for this industry to take root. You've worked with three Nevada governors implementing different types of things and under Lombardo, you're forging the pathway for this lithium industry to really flourish. So excited to talk to you. I don't know how much you want to share about yourself because you're one of those really awesome, humble people, but you have an extensive history. It's really impressive. What would you like to start with on the lithium mine? What are you excited about in this for Nevada with this industry?
• 1:42
  Crystal: Caleb: Well, what I'm excited about for this industry in Nevada is our opportunity to really continue diversifying the economy in the state of Nevada. Nevada does really, really well at the resort space, the international and national travel space and bringing people and companies to Nevada for major events and public events. That's been something we've excelled at for a long time. We've excelled for a long time in the mining space as well, and logistics and in some other areas too. This is one of the first times in . . . in, to my knowledge where the state has an opportunity to really lead in an emergence--emergent technology and emergent field and and really meet national and global needs from across the supply chain. Right? It's mining but it's also processing, it's also manufacturing. It's also putting the end pieces together into the final product and it's recycling. So, that excites me the most. Crystal: And yeah, I think this is the first time we're really taking the mining industry down to the next step in the supply chain. I mean, so far as I can tell, like we mine gold, but then we ship it out of the state as a raw material. We're actually keeping this material within our borders and making something an end product to sell to consumers. That that really is like a new space for the mining industry.
• 3:10
  Scott: And when we talk about, I mean Governor Lombardo of course is phrasing this in terms of the lithium loop. Can you just explain that concept a little bit more? What are the all the components we're going to be looking at as this lithium loop comes on online?
• 3:20
  Scott: Caleb: Yeah, we were very excited when in 2022 Governor Lombardo included closing the lithium loop as one of his priorities in his State of the State address. And of course, Governor Lombardo has been an incredible leader in encouraging this industry in our state, and we're . . . we're really excited to see his leadership and to see how it's developing. The lithium loop itself is a concept of a closed supply chain, right? So, you have all of the components of the supply chain in Nevada. You have from upstream which is, uh, critical minerals exploration and extraction which is mining uh mechan--or excuse me, chemical engineering and processing that takes place to turn it into battery grade lithium and then component manufacturing, putting those components like into battery packs and then putting those battery packs into vehicles are, are the the upstream and middlestream portions and even part of the downstream portion. And the last part and the part that really makes this not just a closed loop but a closed ecosystem is at the end we have lithium recycling here in the state of Nevada as well. A couple of points on that. The more lithium that's recycled from the end product, the end of life or after second life or whatever the battery storage winds up being, the more lithium that's recycled, the less needs to be pulled out of the ground in the long run. Redwood Materials likes to refer to as the largest lithium mine in America is in your sock drawer. So it's the phones that you're no longer using. It's the lithium batteries for your watch or all of the different things that we're increasingly using these for can be recycled at a very high rate and returned back to the process. The other part of this--two more points and then I'll stop. But the other part of this is that makes this a closed supply chain is Nevada is the only state in the nation that has all seven steps of the lithium supply chain in it right now. And so we're really in an incredible position going forward because every part of the country or most parts of the country are really interested in getting into this space because they see the energy transition as being an important part of our future, a global future but also the United States future. And Nevada has all industries in each one of those seven spaces. We have the only operating lithium mine in the country, two more in the works and then companies midstream and downstream from there as well. Um so uh yeah, I think I'll leave it there. Thank you. I think that's a really important piece to understand.
• 5:58
  Scott: Crystal: I mean, it's so great above our weight in the lithium industry within our country, but I also love that the more lithium we produce here under our environmental standards means the less lithium that is being produced in less than good environmental standards in other parts of the world. So, I love that we're reducing our reliance on those dirtier practices and also kind of shoring up our national security because we really can't depend on an entire supply chain being imported. It really leaves us in a, in a dangerous position. So, I love that it's great for our economy, but I also love that it's great for our overall national security that this is taking place and taking root and so fast. I mean, the Big Beautiful Bill got passed. There's tariffs being implemented. Do you feel like you're getting enough support at all levels of government for this industry to really flourish?
• 6:48
  Scott: Caleb: That's a great question and I think, I think all levels of government. So the individual companies work with the local governments when they when they come in they'll do development agreements or they'll do you know the zoning work or whatever they need to do within the local government. And a lot of times that comes with agreements between the company and the, and the jurisdiction to provide support to public services. You know, you both know Nevada has some small counties and some small counties with some very limited infrastructure. And so to bring in a mining operation or a manufacturing operation is going to put more people on the roads, put more people in schools, probably put more people, ,you know, in need of of social services and things like that. And so these companies do that through development agreements and work really collaboratively with the local governments in order to make sure the needs are met, that the county can accommodate the growth, but also that the county benefits from the growth as well. And we've seen just some really incredible relationships flourish throughout the state, especially in Nevada's really small counties like Esmeralda County with, you know, under a thousand people in the county, 750 people for the 2020 Census. That's a small county. And so, so finding ways where it can be a win-win between the industry and the county, to move forward and develop that, has been really important to the industry and that's across the industry from the state. You know, I'll go back to the governor, State of the State for 2022 again, and you just couldn't have more support from the governor who wants to make this such a critical part of Nevada's economy going forward. Not just lithium, but critical minerals in general, in the energy space. And the governor has just been incredible to work with and so we've been enjoying and appreciating that. And then at the federal level, you know, we had an administration change and so we had a focus change. But I will say the Lithium America's project you know, received the largest federal loan for a natural resources project in the nation's history, over $2 billion. Ioneer received about a nine almost a billion dollar loan for a natural resources development project and we're just constantly seeing our members with new announcements about federal grants or partnerships or investments that they're receiving as well. The federal delegation has been really engaged on this industry's behalf and we're particularly grateful to them as well.
• 9:37
  Scott: question. And I do have some some questions about the environmental impact, but we can hold off a second because I think there's something very interesting here. Uh, one of the things we've been talking about in terms of economics is of course, Caleb, you know one of my big beefs is that these myths about rural America and particularly rural Nevada, right? That we're somehow dying, we don't have young people, blah blah blah. But part of that is also the idea that our economies are artificially narrow, that it's just gold and therefore, you know, as soon as gold mining or in this case lithium mining disappears, it's going to drop off. The population is just going to drop off. So there's no sense in, you know, putting money from the state level into the infrastructure of someplace that might be a ghost town in 15 years. My question is when we're talking about this lithium loop, of course the rural counties are going to be, continue to be the source of primarily extraction but then the lithium is going to be taken to Reno . . .
• 10:37
  Crystal: Sparks Scott: Sparks, USA Parkway there, to just the mining is this going to open up some more opportunities out here in the rurals and really help us diversify our economies?
• 10:50
  Crystal: Caleb: That's a really important question and I will say just two, two . . . two cases that I think tell a really good story. So you, you . . . Crystal, you referred to the development going on in Sparks and USA Parkway and the Tri-Center out there and obviously there's a huge emphasis on the development that's been out there and every time I go out there, there's new buildings going up. It's pretty much . . .
• 11:13
  Crystal: Crystal: Every time. I'm on of those nerds that goes out of my way to like how much more have they built and they just every time I'm like you know [gasp] Caleb: And, and Redwood Materials just opened up Redwood Energy out there which is a fascinating project. Be happy to tell you a little bit more about what I know about it. Anyway, but it's in this space. You've got Tesla, Panasonic, American Battery Technology Company, Redwood, all of these companies that are in that supply chain that are in the Tri Center. They also have facilities in Reno-Sparks. Obviously, there's a, you know, remote workforce and the ability to work with the workforces in the more populated areas I think is really good. But the two newest mines that are underway in the state of Nevada, the Lithium Americas project, which I know you're very familiar with in Humboldt County, and the Ioneer project in Esmeralda County. Those are the next two that are in the pipeline for construction and those two both have facilities that are on-site. The pilot plant for the processing of the lithium to come out of Lithium Americas is in Sparks right now. But that's the pilot plant, right? That's the proof of concept that says this is how we're going to get battery grade material from the ore we pull out of the earth.
• 12:32
  Crystal: The actual processing facilities are going to be in these communities which is going to bring . . . it's going to bring jobs. These are highly technical jobs, skilled labor. They're they're all kinds of different jobs that are going to be associated with those, with those facilities. Now, I don't know what what the workforce is are going to be required from each one off the top of my head. But both of those are building those processing facilities on-site. And that's particularly important for Esmeralda. For some of our viewers who aren't familiar. Esmeralda County, not only about 750 people by the last census, I mean, it is it is tiny.
• 13:06
  Crystal: But up until the last 2 or 3 years, this was a county that didn't have a gas station, doesn't have a grocery store even yet, right? So, we have a major Nevada county that's really missing a lot of basic stuff. And part of it is been the fact that there's been no stable industry there, right? So, this is . . . I'm sort of excited about hearing where this is going to fit in and some of that processing capability being actually located out here in the rurals.
• 13:28
  Crystal: Crystal: Well, this podcast was primarily created because we wanted to be able to communicate with urban populations about the importance of rurals. To your point, Scott, there's kind of an attitude in the state legislature that we're too small of a population to really matter and we should pass legislation for the majority of people who live in urban areas. But this developing lithium pipeline is really justifying the rurals' existence. You really cannot have these mining operations in urban city centers. And so if we want to have this flourishing new industry, we do need to support the rural population. And that's the thing . . . . like there's so many things to be excited about, but when it comes to actually saving people and you don't want to have utopic ideas, like it's not going to be magical. legislature changes its mind and starts going out of its way to protect the rural area, what it really needs is real cards in the game, like real playing cards. And to me, and I don't mean to diminish what you're doing or the industry, but I'm like, these are real cards that'll keep us flourishing and keep us supported within the state. So, there's so many different levels of how cool this industry is, and I'm so grateful you're out there building it.
• 14:45
  Crystal: Caleb: I think that's a really I love rural Nevada. I know we've talked about that before. My wife's from from Lander County and and we spend a lot of time, I spend a lot of time out on the road. Take my kids with me as much as I can because I think this is an incredible place and there's so many neat things to do even in areas where, you know, most people are just driving through, right? Or maybe especially in areas where people are just driving through. During the last legislative session, I had the . . . really it was an honor to work on a piece of legislation for rural school districts. And I was representing White Pine County that would have, that would create additional bonding capacity essentially for the state for the construction of these schools. And I know you know this, but White Pine County has got schools that were built before World War I. And you go out there and see it and it's what they do. They make they make such good use of what they have, but how can you rely on a heating system that's 103 years old or a plumbing system that's 103 years old? You can't rely on that for educating these kids. And I will say the legislature . . . the legislature pushed that through and we're extremely grateful to Assembly Member Mosca and Finance Chair Marilyn Dondero Loop who really saw that through. And of course all the . . . both parties that supported it and the governor that signed it. But that was the kind of thing that we needed to do which was to educate people on the conditions that these rural students and rural families were facing. And I think that that's the real value of a podcast like yours, which is really shining a light on these issues and educating people about, you know, what is rural Nevada? If I live in Vegas and never drive or if I live in Reno and never drive, you know, north of the North Valleys or south of, south of Mount Rose Highway or, you know, east and west, then I don't know how much beauty and life and vigor there is in the state going on. So I would agree with your comment that this is going to give the local communities more leverage to advocate for their needs going forward.
• 16:54
  Crystal: Scott: And this education question is interesting because there's . . . I think there's another sort of dimension to this is that you know we're talking about this in rurals. We're talking about these facilities in Reno. How do you get buy in from some place like southern Nevada, from Las Vegas that might not see this as, as sort of central to where they're going forward? Although I would argue Vegas right now, I think what we're seeing is the effects of a different type of narrow economy, right, in the the hit they've taken to tourism recently. But more importantly, that's where a lot of political power is increasingly centralized. What's the advantage
• 17:34
  to some place like Las Vegas for this? Caleb: Yeah. So, we fight this battle all the time and and and there are a couple of reasons why we fight this battle. I say fight this battle, but you know, mostly in jest. It's a huge emphasis of of mine as I'm going on shows like yours or traveling the state is saying, you know, right now the organizations that are getting a lot of the attention because they're the newest emerging things are happening in, in Northern Nevada, right? This is where a lot of the mining growth happens and the industrial growth since 2014 has happened in the space in Northern Nevada. We have a number of members of our organization that are headquartered or operational in southern Nevada. Southern Nevada is very interested in expanding in this space. And we talked to their economic development folks regularly. We talked to, we did a . . . we did a meeting with Mayor-- Commissioner Kirkpatrick back in January of 2025 of this year to talk about some of the storage needs and what, what you know solar energy storage through batteries would look like for their land use planning and those sorts of things. They're very interested in expanding this. And there's already substantial growth in the industry down there. I was, I was just reading two or three days ago about a company called Ultion in down in Las Vegas that is, that has been moving very quietly and very systematically towards developing their battery manufacturing and they're, they're . . . they're benefiting from that through capitalization and investment. There's a company called Lithion which is down in Henderson. A company called Entek which produces a membrane which is a part of the components separates the anode and the cathode in these batteries and others that are already down there. And there's huge interest from the industry . . . or from, excuse me, from local government and business leaders in order to continue to bring this because this is advanced manufacturing. This is, this is everything their economy would like to support. Right. this is how their workforce development efforts can grow and how their
• 19:42
  economic developments can grow. Crystal: Yeah, I think everyone does kind of think that Vegas is just entertainment and it's . . . and the numbers do show that. But I did spend a year working in Vegas and when we were talking about that question of like what was Clark County's involvement, I had two thoughts and North Las Vegas is surprisingly full of laboratories and inventors and different types of things go on. It's very quiet. No one really talks about it. It's not like it's a secret, but there is an incredible amount of inventors that are trying to put forth new pieces of technology in North Las Vegas. But almost more importantly, what I found out is there's an incredibly amount of well-connected people in Clark County that are really good at getting investment.
• 20:20
  economic developments can grow. Crystal: Scott: Right. So what might wind up happening is you get investment pipeline coming out of Clark County investing into say Washoe and Storey and Churchill and where ever else this is going.
• 20:30
  economic developments can grow. Crystal: Scott: Yeah, I was thinking more . . . I know Pahrump has become an interesting center for a lot of green energy recycling, right? There's been efforts to put solar panel recycling industry down there in Pahrump. Is there interest on that aspect of the uh of the supply chain because that's something I can really see the infrastructure that already exists in in Vegas and Pahrump there.
• 20:55
  economic developments can grow. Crystal: Crystal: The storage from the storage would be a lithium battery, right?
• 21:00
  economic developments can grow. Crystal: Caleb: Yeah. The storage from those panels, from the solar arrays that are either being built or are built in Nevada would be large lithium batteries that that store a huge amount of energy. So that when, when the, you know, the system is not generating energy it can store that and then so it can more strategically be . . . uh, injected for lack of a better word--into the supply for the state. As far as, you know, we've had some members who have gone into the solar panel recycling and there's a lot of metals in those solar panels that could be reused and and, and developed and waste that can be diverted from the landfill by doing that, which I think we all think is important. And so we have had those conversations. Our focus has been on really the the lithium portion of it. I think green energy writ large is a hugely important subject, especially as we anticipate AI, Bitcoin and all of these things that are major parts of our lives to . . . to draw more energy than . . . you know, projected to in the future draw more energy than we can currently produce.
• 22:13
  economic developments can grow. Crystal: Crystal: Yeah. And it's such a big monumental task when you bring something new online to educate the public. And I mean, it takes everybody kind of talking about it for people to get used to something new. And I was really impressed with Governor Lombardo hosting a lithium summit last year in Lake Tahoe that kind of educated the Who's Who and the movers in the market, like hey this is taking off. This is all the educ . . . this is all the information you need. Here's the resources. He's really preparing this industry and I think in couple weeks, a few weeks in Vegas. It's going to be in Vegas this year in September?
• 22:55
  economic developments can grow. Crystal: Scott: Right.
• 23:00
  economic developments can grow. Crystal: County, which is again saturating the market with, you know, resources and information. So, not only has he made way for this industry to happen, he's giving it all the best chances to flourish. And I really appreciate . . . and I know your team's been a part of those summits. So, thank you for doing that.
• 23:17
  economic developments can grow. Crystal: Caleb: No, I think we have . . . we really benefit from having the governor's leadership in this space. And . . . and it's, it's really remarkable to see how that, that leadership matters the people he can get on the phone or the way he can message just makes it better for the whole state. Crystal: Yeah. I mean, you have the governor call you as a major executive and say, "Hey, come down to my summit." That's much different than, you know, the staffer calling them. So . . .
• 23:45
  economic developments can grow. Crystal: Scott: Yeah.
• 23:50
  economic developments can grow. Crystal: calls to make this work. So, kudos to him.
• 23:50
  economic developments can grow. Crystal: Scott: Yeah. And on the education side, because I think this is something we've seen. So, we've talked a lot about Thacker Pass. Of course, you're right in the middle of it between . . .
• 23:59
  economic developments can grow. Crystal: Crystal: Yeah.
• 24:05
  economic developments can grow. Crystal: But we've got some, some potential lithium, large lithium operations coming online in Elko County. And there's already been some push back because the BLM has started their initial sort of comment stage. Uh, and you know, I was posting it through my social media. So, you know, get a bigger group of people to comment on this. And some of the push back on that is real concerns that they have, valid or not, but the real concerns they have about the environmental impact of lithium mining, right? Now, correct me if I'm wrong, this is lithium carbonate.
• 24:39
  So this is solid lithium extraction, right? Caleb: Yeah. I'd have to know more about the specific mine, but yes, the new mines typically coming on, are, are are in your play.
• 24:45
  So this is solid lithium extraction, right? Caleb: Scott: Right. And you know, one of the things I think that's been going on is there's been a lot of assumption that this is going to look like some of the nastier aspects of mining that you've pointed out to. We're just going to see desolate landscapes. And of course, the gold mining up here has been fighting against that, that image for years. Crystal: I mean, I'm against the way China does it.
• 25:13
  Scott: Oh, yeah.
• 25:13
  Scott: Crystal: Observation of Nevada mines has been spectacular. And I have built water systems. So, I'm like, this looks pretty solid to me. And I just, you know, I caution people to question their sources on who's really upset about these mines coming in and really look at the facts, because there's a lot of money out there involved in just trying to disrupt something. My personal observation, I'm really impressed with their containment systems. I don't think we've had too many issues. And state of Nevada makes you put up, is it a bond? There's a major cleanup bond you have to put up before you even put one shovel in the ground. So, they're prepared in every way possibly can be. I just want to be clear on that. I don't complain about Nevada.
• 26:00
  Scott: Go ahead, Caleb.
• 26:00
  Scott: Caleb: I was just going to say I with . . . that the, that companies and global governments around the globe are trying to face right now. And that is as the more of our lives become dependent on batteries, right . . . I'm using a battery in my laptop and my phone and my watch right now, I'll go get in my car that's a hybrid with an EV battery in it after this and as our lives become more reliant on that for home storage, for grid storage, for all of those things, we have to have the materials. And I think Crystal, to your point, the question is exactly right. Do we want these minerals being pulled from places where there's not rigid or strong environmental controls or human . . .
• 26:51
  Scott: human rights roles and all of these things with the government? Or do we want it in the United States, where investors, mining operators, companies that are supporting the supply chain, all of those recognize the United States to be the gold . . . excuse me, the gold standard in environmental protection, human rights protection, and those sorts of things. So while, while we want to make sure that these things are done responsibly . . . and I, and every one of my members would say the same thing, while we want to make sure this is done responsibly, this is being done the most responsibly. It's being done anywhere in the world is in the United States. And, and that's a major factor that, that, you know, I think about when I think about this industry and its potential for Nevada and for the nation and national security is . . .
• 27:43
  Scott: You know, we, we could outsource this. We've seen the problems with outsourcing all of our industry recently. We could outsource this or we could do it here where we know it's going to be done right and, you know equitably and safely.
• 27:53
  Scott: Scott: So I think that's a, that's a good point. Speaking of that summit, you want to . . . you want to give a pitch for it for anybody that might be interested in joining you?
• 28:05
  Scott: Caleb: Yeah, absolutely. Sorry. Go ahead, Crystal.
• 28:10
  Scott: there. Okay.
• 28:10
  Scott: Caleb: So, this is the second annual. critical minerals summit here in the state of Nevada. The first one was in Lake Tahoe last year, as you know. This year is September 18th and 19th in Las Vegas. It's at the the UFC arena, which is kind of exciting. I've never been there before. And it's going to be everybody from scientists and engineers who talk about what's going on from an innovation front to the companies that are already here and state agency leads who will be key parts of bringing this industry to fruition here in the state or further bringing the industry to fruition in the state. Two days in Las Vegas at the UFC hosted by the governor. That's enough to get me there. And I think it's, you know, for people who are excited in this you can, you can certainly . . .
• 29:05
  Scott: I don't have the link at my fingertips, but you can already buy your tickets and look online and . . . and get more information.
• 29:09
  Scott: Scott: Yeah, we'll go ahead and add that, uh add that to us.
• 29:15
  Scott: the IP that could potentially come out of this state as well because we're building out the most comprehensive supply chain. We have a lot of inventors in in Clark County and in Washoe County and actually in rurals too. I'm surprised at how many people are able to build just about anything. But, you know, if we can be first to the most efficient extraction technologies, then those are patented and licensed out around the world, we could be a leader in a whole another way and have a whole another stream of income from that, just the IP alone. So, I'm . . . I'm so glad we're hitting this hard and we're going to be the first and the best as always.
• 29:47
  Scott: Scott: Yeah. Well, thank you for joining us, Caleb. It's been a pleasure. So. . .
• 29:53
  Scott: Caleb: Thank you both for the opportunity. I really appreciate it. It's good to see you both.
• 29:58
  Scott: Scott: So, we'll see you around the 775. And if anybody wants some more information or we can put you in contact with Caleb there at Arc Dome Strategies, we'll have a link up on our website. You can always also send us a question at info@775alive.com. Until then, I'm Scott Gavorsky.
• 30:14
  Scott: Crystal: And I'm Crystal Newton.
• 30:24
  Scott: [music]