Latest / The You Project / #2204 Eat Your Ice-Cream - Dr. Zeke Emanuel

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#2204 Eat Your Ice-Cream - Dr. Zeke Emanuel · The You Project

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: I'll get a team. It's harps. Of course, it is
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: a to you project. Now today I have on the
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: show someone who's a big deal. He's a big deal,
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: he said before we started, he said, make sure you
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: let the audience know I'm a big deal, which I
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: thought a bit chess beatery, you know, a little bit
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: self promoting bit. All right, No, I'm making that. Of course,
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: I'm making that up. I knew very little about doctor
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: Zeke Emmanuel until a day ago. I'm going to be honest.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: We're on different sides of the world. He's busy. I'm busy,
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: You're all busy, but he is. Nonetheless, he is a
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: big deal. He's very smart, he's very accomplished. He's a
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: brilliant science communicator. I've listened to a lot of him
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: over the last twenty four hours and has a capacity
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: to explain complicated things in an uncomplicated way, which is
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: good because I'm not that smart. So I love that.
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  Speaker 1: Doctor Zeke Hi, welcome to the show.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you, and thank you for the nice introduction.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: Well you're pretty good. You're pretty good.
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: What's good?
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: I laughed, No, you're good, not me, you're good. It's
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: very easy to introduce you. Now, I'm just going to
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: do a snapshot. I hate this, but if I get
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: something wrong, let me know. Doctor Zeke Emmanuel is one
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  Speaker 1: of the world's best known physician philosophers. We're going to
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: go into that. What does that mean? He's on collogist, bioethicist,
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  Speaker 1: health policy expert professor at University of Pennsylvania. Sits at
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  Speaker 1: the intersection of medicine, ethics, policy, public policy, and healthcare reform.
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  Speaker 1: Medical training from Harvard no less, of course, PhD and
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: political philosophy from Harvard. He's MD from there as well,
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  Speaker 1: and master's in biochemistry from University of Oxford, of course,
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  Speaker 1: and BA in chemistry from is it Armist College? Is
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: that how I pronounced that? Amates Amist College? All right,
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: so you're highly underqualified, you're pretty ineptin, you don't know much,
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: but I couldn't get anyone else. So welcome to the show, doc.
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  Speaker 1: And firstly, where are you? And what time is it?
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  Speaker 2: I'm in Washington, DC and it's about five point thirty
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: in the afternoon.
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: What's the weather like over there? What's the top today
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: over there?
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  Speaker 2: I think it tapped out at eighty seven degrees. The
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: problem is Washington DC has this combination of heat and
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: humidity so that when it gets eighties you begin to
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: feel like you're melting into the pavement. Yeah, yeah, we
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: get that.
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  Speaker 1: I'm in Melbourne, the bottom of Australia, and summer over
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: here is crazy, like over one hundred regularly, one hundred
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  Speaker 1: fahrenheit regularly, But right now it's a it's a chilly
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: like thirty degrees thirty fahrenheit or maybe forty fahrenheit for
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  Speaker 1: US's colt because we're kind of a you know, a
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  Speaker 1: land of sweeping planes and bloody beaches and all of
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: that stuff. But it does get very cold at times.
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  Speaker 2: So I thought, you've had the most dangerous animals in
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: the world.
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: Oh we do.
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  Speaker 2: Oh yeah.
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  Speaker 1: If you want to die, there's a great you know,
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  Speaker 1: there's a myriad of ways you can die over here
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  Speaker 1: by nature, death by nature, and most of them have
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  Speaker 1: got a multitude of legs, although we do have some
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  Speaker 1: amazing snakes that it can kill you in no time,
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  Speaker 1: and spiders and also let's not forget great white sharks.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, if you're ending, if you're heading towards
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  Speaker 1: the end of your life and you think, I don't
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  Speaker 1: want a boring death. Come over here, just get in nature,
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: don't prepare yourself in any way, and it will just
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: be a matter of hours.
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  Speaker 2: Here we go. They have been stung three times in
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  Speaker 2: the night by a scorpion, and.
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  Speaker 1: So I thought that I thought that was Is that
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  Speaker 1: not terminal? Or does it depend on depending on your
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  Speaker 1: body weight and the scorpion?
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  Speaker 2: Very good, very smart. It does depend upon how big
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: you are, but it did have bigger facts, including effects
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: on my vision, which was the scariest thing. How long
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  Speaker 2: did that last? About twelve hours? It helps take up
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: I was taking out of the Grand Canyon, and that
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  Speaker 2: actually cleared the venom.
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  Speaker 1: So I'm going to start with I've watched a lot
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  Speaker 1: of interviews and people often just go down there, Oh,
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  Speaker 1: tell us about We're going to talk about the book.
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  Speaker 1: Of course. The new book is called Eat Your Ice Cream.
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  Speaker 1: Of course it is, which is not really what it sounds.
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  Speaker 1: It kind of is, but it kind of isn't. Just
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  Speaker 1: a lot of really common sense wisdom and insight and
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  Speaker 1: guidance which in the mayhem of confusion of what not
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  Speaker 1: to eat, how to live, how to be healthy. It's
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  Speaker 1: good to have something that's a bit clear and a
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  Speaker 1: bit practical, which I liked. But a lot of Os,
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: a lot of Australians won't know that you've got two
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: brothers who are also big deals. Can you just give us,
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: just because I'm coming back to something, can you give
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: us a snapshot of your two brothers.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. So I'm the oldest and I'm the academic. My
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: middle brother is a politician. He was worked for Bill
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: Clinton as his chief political advisor as well as his counselor.
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  Speaker 2: He then was congressman from Illinois, then was Obama's chief
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  Speaker 2: of staff, then was Mayor of Chicago and ambassador to Japan.
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  Speaker 2: And my youngest brother was a Hollywood super agent, maybe
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  Speaker 2: the most not maybe he was the most powerful agent
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  Speaker 2: in Hollywood. And now he runs a lot of entertainment business,
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  Speaker 2: including the UFC that you may have seen at the
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  Speaker 2: White House.
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: Yes, we well, not all of my fans because about
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: fans followers, I should say listeners whom her fans, sorry,
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: are about seventy percent or so ladies. So but yeah,
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  Speaker 1: he's so so that brother's ari Emmanuel. Now, was what
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: was that show?
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  Speaker 2: I know?
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  Speaker 1: It went crazy? Entourage? Right, So I've never seen an episode,
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  Speaker 1: which is very That makes two of us. Yeah, very
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  Speaker 1: poor amount of.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, but anyway that that character was that Aria. The
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  Speaker 1: character in the show was based on your brother, which
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: is hilarious. But anyway, all right, enough about them, it's
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: not about them, it's about you. But I would say
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: the with a festive gatherings was there was there a
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  Speaker 1: lot of heated debate when when you get those three
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  Speaker 1: egos at the table or was it.
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: We're three egos, which is why I live in Washington,
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: raalmlerds in Chicago, and are lives in la are in
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: completely different fields, so that actually counts for a lot.
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  Speaker 2: But we're Yes, we all have strong opinions and we
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  Speaker 2: disagree all the time. But you know, that's the way
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  Speaker 2: it is.
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  Speaker 1: All right, let's talk about health and wellness and all
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: of those things. So I will start off. We'll start
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  Speaker 1: off with your books. So the book is called very
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: Simply Eat Your ice Cream, which is not particularly about
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: eating ice cream but a bit. But it's really kind
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: of I think it's more kind of a statement about
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: let's not complicate things, let's not reinvent the wheel. Let's
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  Speaker 1: like biologies, biology, physiologies, physiology, humans are pretty much the same.
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  Speaker 1: But we're doing some dumb shit to our bodies. So
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  Speaker 1: let's maybe not do that. Give us the kind of
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  Speaker 1: the driver the reason.
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  Speaker 2: And wellness and health and longevity are not about self denial.
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  Speaker 2: There you know you're going to have to do them
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  Speaker 2: for years and decades. Yes, better down well, enjoy them
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  Speaker 2: and do the things that you know you will help
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  Speaker 2: you live longer and healthier that you enjoy. So then
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  Speaker 2: one of them is ice cream.
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  Speaker 1: I'm sure, for sure, for sure what is the ice suffer?
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  Speaker 1: Because I've got a bit of anyway, lack those intolerance,
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  Speaker 1: but I love I was a morbidly obese kid. Doc,
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  Speaker 1: I pretty much lived on ice cream. Yeah, not a
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  Speaker 1: great idea. Uh when when the doc says ate your
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  Speaker 1: ice cream? I ate all the ice cream, which is
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  Speaker 1: probably not well, definitely not recommended. But what what? Why
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  Speaker 1: do you think we complicate things or why do we like?
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  Speaker 2: Why are we.
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  Speaker 1: So constantly reinventing the wheel or analyzing the same thing
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  Speaker 1: from a different way. It seems like we've got more
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  Speaker 1: edutainment I call it edutainment online and more kind of
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  Speaker 1: pseudo bullshitty information, some real research, some not real research.
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  Speaker 1: But we don't seem to be getting better, if better
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  Speaker 1: is health like physical, mental, emotional health. There doesn't seem
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  Speaker 1: to be an improvement, if anything, the opposite.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, So there are two issues here. One is why
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  Speaker 2: at this moment in history, societies seem to be obsessed
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  Speaker 2: about wellness and health. We could talk about that. I
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  Speaker 2: think there's a lot of good history where we repeat
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  Speaker 2: things that have happened. The other is about why we're
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  Speaker 2: prone to believing nonsense and stuff that sort of fed
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  Speaker 2: to us. And that I think is you know, P. T.
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  Speaker 2: Barnum got it right about you know, people being gullible,
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  Speaker 2: wanting quick fixes, and at this point in time, listening
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  Speaker 2: to influencers who have no education because they feel like
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  Speaker 2: they're authentic. And also, we have a lot of people
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: with a lot of money who are just throwing it
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  Speaker 2: around because they don't have anything better to do and
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  Speaker 2: they can't imagine, you know, contributing to people who aren't
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  Speaker 2: so privileged. So I think both of those are true.
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  Speaker 2: You know, if you look at history, and I don't
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  Speaker 2: have a degree in history, I never took a course
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  Speaker 2: in college and history, but I read a lot about it.
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  Speaker 2: The current moment is very much like the eighteen eighties
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  Speaker 2: to nineteen fourteenth World War One. At that time, you
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  Speaker 2: had industrialization, sort of mechanization factories. You had immigration, You
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: had a lot of migration inside countries from rural to
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  Speaker 2: urban areas. You had a lot of income inequality. You
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: had a lot of small wars. You might think of
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: the Boer War, you might think of the Franco German War,
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: you could think of the Spanish American War. A lot
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: of little small wars going on Before World War One.
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  Speaker 2: You also had this worry about health because of pollution
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  Speaker 2: in cities, tainted food and things like that. And there
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  Speaker 2: was this big wellness movement at that time. There was
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: people wanting to eat pure things. That's actually when cereal
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: was invented, you might believe, ironically, ironically ironically, there was
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: all these spas in Germany, bo and Bodom. In America
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: we have Saratoga Springs and many others. And there was
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: this anti vax movement at that time. It was against
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: smallpox vaccines. But I think what was going on then
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: and what's going on now is the world seemed topsy turfy,
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  Speaker 2: the world seemed out of control, couldn't actually influence politics
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: or economics, and so you begin turning to something you
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  Speaker 2: think you can control what is wellness, what goes into
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  Speaker 2: your body, the exercise you do, the vaccines you take.
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: And I think we have the same thing. We've got AI.
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: We've got these small wars like Ukraine and Iran. We've
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  Speaker 2: got people worried about the food system, and we're in
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: the midst of a big food born illness outbreak here
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: in the United States. And so I think people are
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  Speaker 2: trying to take control. They're trying to make the world
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  Speaker 2: more sensible to them. And that's why we're focused on wellness.
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  Speaker 2: Why we're focused on crazy stuff like supplements, peptides, etc.
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  Speaker 2: That has to do with we want quick fixes. We
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  Speaker 2: want you know, we have this philosophy today that if
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: something is good max, it just go to the limit.
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: A lot of it must be better, which is totally,
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  Speaker 2: as you point out, not biologically sound. That is anti
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: the way the body and nature work. So you know,
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: we're under a delusion as usual.
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: We more obsessed with lifespan than ever. It seems like,
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  Speaker 1: you know, there's anti aging and all of the you know,
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: the multitude of gurus and scientists in inverted well they
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: are scientists, but yeah, there seems to be an obsession
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  Speaker 1: with living as long as you can, and health also
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: is a focus, of course, But in Australia, and I
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  Speaker 1: assume in America, like we are living longer, but we're
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  Speaker 1: not living better. Like, yes, right now, my dad's in care.
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  Speaker 1: He's eighty seven, you know, God bless him. I love him,
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  Speaker 1: but he's not there anymore. You know, he's cognitively shut
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  Speaker 1: up the shop and and you know I love him.
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: I don't want him to die, of course, but you
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  Speaker 1: just look at that and it's so conflicting because it's
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: his quality of life and all of those things is
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: just non existent now. So yeah, living longer at any
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: cost I kind of don't see the point.
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  Speaker 2: So, first of all, this the obsessionly with living longer,
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: is not new. There's Greek mythology where it's true, and
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: it turns out you can go again, go back about
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: one hundred years. There's a nineteen o nine Saint Louis
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: Post Dispatch newspaper got the big headline. Researcher says science
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: will allow us to live to one hundred and fifty
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: years nineteen oh nine. You know, it's nothing new under
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: the sun. We have been trying to live a long
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: time and we have the same sort of hucksters out there. Oh,
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: we're going to rejuvenate your heart, rejuvenate your brain. I
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: think actually what you just mentioned is part of the
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: motivation for my book. I know what hell is. I
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: have spent a long time working as a I'm an oncologist.
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: I don't know that you mentioned that, and I've spent
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: a lot of time figuring out or thinking through and
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: writing about what constitutes or good death. I know what
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: hell is. Hell is. My body's working fine. You know,
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: I got a great heart. The kidneys are functioning, livers functioning,
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: but the brain isn't. And I'm demented. That is the
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: worst possible existence I can imagine. And I've told my wife,
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: my kids, everyone knows. I don't want to live like that.
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: I've even published articles about that. I don't want to
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: live like that. That is horrible I've gotten. I get
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: no meaning out of it, and the world gets no
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: meaning out of it. So I don't want to be
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: that way. And I think the people who are selling
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: We're going to Live to one hundred and fifty, they
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: haven't met ninety year olds or centenarians, because if you
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: meet them, you know, yes, some of them are. There
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: are a few exceptions who are still absolutely fantastic at
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: ninety there are still moving around great, They're doing yoga,
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: they're exercising, They're sharpest can be. They're so rare you
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: can count them on two hands. Most people in that
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: age group are. You know, they can't. They don't have
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: a lot of energy, They take a lot of n apps,
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: they're debilitated, they might not be cognitively intact at all. Yeah,
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: there are some exceptions I would note, and I mentioned
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: this in the book. Ben Franklin was one of those exceptions.
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: He was amazingly brilliant, but he kept it up for
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: late in his life, at seventy nine. You know, lots
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: of people know Ben Franklin byfocals. He's the guy who
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: invented bifocals. Turned out, Ben Franklin did that at the
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: age of seventy nine. And he was at the Constitutional
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: Convention at the age of eighty one, and everyone reports
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: he was sharpest can be. Yes, he had kidney stones,
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: Yes he had gout, but mentally he was as sharp
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: as anyone in the room. He's different, He's different than
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: the rest of us. Most of us aren't going to
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: be like that, and we have to recognize it and
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: we have to plan for it. There are things we
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: can do to prevent or delay the cognitive decline, and
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: we should do them. Unfortunately, most people aren't doing them. Yes,
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: one of the primary things you can actually do for
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: yourself is get four vaccines that reduce your risk of
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: cognitive impairment. The shingles vaccine, the new macacco vaccine, your
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: yearly flu vaccine, and the Diphtheria Pertussa's tetanus vaccine DPT.
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: Those four vaccines are shown to actually reduce your risk
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: of cognitive impairment. I don't know how many of your
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: listeners have gotten all for but I'm betting not very many.
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: Including the host of the show.
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: That's so go get those vaccines.
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, COVID's had an interesting psychological and sociological impact on
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: the minds and behaviors of everyone. And it wouldn't even
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: I mean people, And I'm not being complementary or critical here,
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: but people even hate the idea of any vaccine now,
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: irrespective of what it's for, just because of that. I
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: totally ag I guess that's understandable. So you wrote a
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: very interesting essay and I hate bringing it up, but
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: it's the first time for my audience. And I in
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: twenty fourteen called why I Hope to Die at seventy five.
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: You've probably spoken about it too much, But what was
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: the motivation for that essay or article? Have you changed
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: your thinking it in any way in the last twelve
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: years and did you expect the bloody hysteria that was
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: off the back of it.
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: So I wrote that article under durat. I was just
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: finishing a book and a dear friend of mine who's
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: an editor, was an editor at The Atlantic magazine, said,
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: we're doing a piece. We've got a big piece on aging,
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: and oh, it's what it's going to do to society.
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: You have a particular unit about my philosophy of life.
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: You have a particular philosophy. You've got to write that
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: for this. I said, listen, I'm just finishing this book.
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: I don't have time. No, no, you got to write it.
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: So that essay was written in three days, and I
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: think it's one of my best and it summarizes my philosophy,
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: which I just told you. I know what hell is
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: and I want to avoid that hell. I want to
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: avoid a situation where I am going to be cognitively impaired.
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: So here's some data that your listeners need to know.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: You're fifty sixty seventy very low risk of Alzheimer's. In
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: cognitive impairment, it really shoots up, and it shoots up
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: at age seventy such that at age seventy five, such
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: that at age seventy five, something like ten percent of
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: people have Alzheimer's and another fifteen percent of people have
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: a recognizable cognitive impairment. By eighty just five years later,
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: fifteen percent of people have Alzheimer's and twenty five percent
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: of people have recognizable cognitive impairment. And it just goes
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: up from there. We're going to be in that group
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: that's forty percent of people at ay, we're going to
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: you know, some of us are going to be you know,
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: Ben Franklin, most of us are going to be normal.
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: And normal is on that curve. I don't want to
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: be on that curve. And that's what that paper argued.
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: And I was very clear about it. And as I said,
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: I'm very clear. What's interesting to me is a lot
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: of people, when I present it that way, agree, People
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: who don't agree, they just you know, if you ask
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: them you want a long time, or you want to
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: have high quality of life. Everyone says high quality of life.
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: I said, okay, so confront this fact. And then they
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: haven't thought about it, and they've tried to avoid thinking
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: about the future and what they'll be like at eighty
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: eighty five or ninety. Now. I may be lucky. I
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: have parents. My father's dead now, but he died at
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: ninety two, and he was cognitively intact. At ninety two,
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: he got a brain tumor, didn't do anything about it
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: and died peacefully ten days later. My mom's ninety two.
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: She's pretty sharp, although she's beginning to lose it a
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: little bit, so, you know, but that's so that's what
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: was driving me. Have I changed. I've changed a little bit.
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: And the little bit of change was prompted by COVID,
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: because you know, there's a situation where your risk of
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: dying is pretty height in the seventies, but two shots
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: can substantially reduce your risk of dying. I mean, especially
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: if you're cognitively intact and maintain yourself. So that's the
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: kind of change that I've adopted. But the general philosophy
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: of I don't want to be you know, physically fit
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: and mentally not present, is still present? Is still my philosophy?
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think one of the one of the challenges
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: for the average whatever that means. But you know, like
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: our average listener, mister or missus, whoever. You know, We've
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: got people who are you know, academics, We've got people
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: who are manual laborers. We've got lawyers, We've got mums
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: and dads. We've got a big cross section of humanity
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: who listen. And it seems like for some people, the
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: conversations around all the different variables of health, you know, sleep, exercise, movement, recovery, nutrition,
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: you know, all the kind of social components booze drugs,
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: it's getting more complicated for the average person, Like there's more,
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: there's more inbound often conflicting data to bloody sift through,
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: and it's like, hey, I'm a you know, I'm a care.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: I don't want to go and read all these nothing
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: God bless cares, thanks for looking after my dad. I
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: don't want to go and read all these academic journals.
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: I don't even understand the language. It's like, so is
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: that part of the motivation for the book is to
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: turn down the craziness on the overwhelm of information.
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: Ah.
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: Part of it is to say, look, there's a lot
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: of nonsense out there. Most of this is common sense.
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: You already know it. I'm just going to give you
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: what it is and give you some of the data
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: behind it, and then you can ignore the nonsense and
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: the bs out there. That is one of the major
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: reasons for writing the book. So you know, I constantly
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: get asked questions like alcohol, what do you think about alcohol?
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: And I begin the book that way with a conversation
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: that was pretty is pretty common. Still, there are lots
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: of areas alcohol is one of them where the data
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: seemed to go back and forth. Another one, my wife
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: was just mentioning this morning, caffeine. You know, it's caffeine
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: good for you, caffeine not good for you? Should you
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: have caffeine? Not have caffeine? So I wanted to cut
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: through a lot of that. The other major motivation for
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: it is to emphasize Look, if you talk to anyone
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: around wellness, and you talk to your doctor about wellness
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: or health, they'll say, all right, you got to eat well,
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: you got to exercise, you got to sleep, and they
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: won't mention social interactions. As a matter of fact, if
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: you pull at least American doctors about what's really important
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: for wellness and health, social interaction doesn't make the top five.
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: And I wanted to emphasize social interaction being the most
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: important thing you can do for your health, wellness and happiness.
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: And yes, of course eating well, exercising, sleep or important,
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: but so having your friends, spending time with your friends,
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: engaging with them super important. And it's not just important
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: psychologically for whatever you know, it's all part of the mind. No,
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: it's part of the body. It really affects your bodies.
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: It affects your brain neurons, it affects your stress access,
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: so your hypothaleness down to your pineal, your pineal your
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: pituitary gland to your adrenals, and the secretion of stress
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: hormones like cortisol. Yes, all affected by social interactions. And
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: then there are genes that are affected by our sol
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: or lack of social interactions. We are, as Aristotle social animal,
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: and if we don't interact with people, we're not as happy.
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: Interacting with people actually makes us happy, decreases our stress.
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: So that's a passage I want out there.
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: It's so funny because like we're doing something, whether or
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: not it's taking a pill, eating a certain food, moving
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: our body, having better quality sleep, interacting with someone, lying
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: on the floor with the dog that we love that
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: loves us. Right, all of these things impact our physiology
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: and function in real time. And you think, I did
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: a corporate gig the other day and we were talking
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: about I was talking to the room about you know,
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: the things that you're talking about right now, all the
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: different things that impact our function and physiology. And you know,
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: it's like when you're with someone that you love and
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: loves you, now, your heart rates lower, your blood pressure
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: is lower, your body's producing happy hormones, your parasympathetic nervous
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: systems kicked in, or maybe you're excited, you're the other way. Anyway,
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: Like just being in the proximity of someone that you
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: love has a real physical consequence, just like taking a
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: pill does, just like having a great sleep does. It's like,
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: all we're trying to do is change out biochemistry for
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: the better. All we're doing is trying to improve you know,
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: what's happening in our body, which is a myriad of variables,
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: and people don't realize, Oh, me being in a perhaps
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: a loving relationship or me you know, spending time with
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: my kids or my parents that I love, or my
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: dog that I love or whatever it is. This is
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: literally a health treatment.
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and again I think people don't realize. I mean,
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: if you've ever fallen in love, you know who, that
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: experience changes you, right, you feel different. You're like zoomen
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: So you know that social interaction makes a difference to
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: your physiology and not just to your psychology. But we
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: kind of forget that or ignore that or don't pay
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: attention how important that is. But if you meet a
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: lonely person, right, they're almost always suppressed, They're almost always
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: lack energy, etcetera. You know, living with a partner, sharing
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: your life, you know, having experiences with that person, you know,
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: that's it makes it life enjoyable, It makes it yourself,
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: just gives you so much more power and energy. That's
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: what it's about.
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: I think. Even like when when I talk to you,
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: what are you now sixty eight?
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: Doc? Yes, boy, you've done your homework.
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so your your energy is twenty eight right, and
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: your Brian you know, is great. Your communication, well it
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: is your communications great, you know you But the thing
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: is which I think you and I have maybe in
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: common is that I love what I do. Right So,
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: and I know this is cliche, but my work doesn't
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: feel like work, Like right now I'm working and I'm
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: meeting I know you aren't like this, but like one
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: of the greatest minds in the world, one of the
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: greatest you know, thinkers in the health space. And I'm like,
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: this is bullshit. This is how is this a job?
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: This is not a job. This is a gift, Like
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: I get the opportunity. I'm not making a sacrifice. This
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: is amazing. I was talking to the guy who started Netflix,
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: Mark Randolph, and in the middle I had this moment.
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: You know, he's a billionaire. I'm like, how is the
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: fat kid from Terragon where I grew up MOEI like,
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: how's that fat kid doing this?
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: And even like right now, I think when considering how
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: much time we work, when our work doesn't feel like work,
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: and our work gives us energy not takes it away, Now,
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: all of a sudden, you've got a differ relationship with
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: something that, for a lot of people is seen more
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: as a problem, a problem, something to be enjewed, than
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: any kind of positive right.
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's exactly So that was exactly the philosophy
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: I brought to this book, which is you're going to
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: be doing this wellness stuff right for forty years, you
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: better damn well enjoy it. You better find it enriching. Now.
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: I don't know about you, but you know when I
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: go out bicycle riding, it really rejuvenates me. You know,
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: I'm with my wife, We're able to talk. You know,
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: I'm sweating, I'm pounding away. I'm in nature. I can see,
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: you know, all sorts of tree. Sometimes there's deer, sometimes
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: there's fox, other animals. What could be better? And you know,
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: come back like thrilled And I think those that's what
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: we have to strive for. You know, you make a
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: great meal and people enjoy it. Is wonderful. You have
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: great conversations, you open up to new perspectives. It's wonderful.
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: I've got maybe one or two questions and we're going
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: to wind up and thank you so much for your time. So,
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: you know, I've been very boots on the ground for
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: a lot of years. I set up with the first
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: personal training center in Australia along with a friend. We
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: wrote the first course and I've worked with teams and
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: athletes and as an excise scientist and you know, the
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: general public. And the one thing that everybody has in
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: common when they come to me is they want to
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: change something. They want something to be different, you know.
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: So there's decision making, there's action taking, there's adapting, there's
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: you know, and you're trying to maintain this this kind
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: of focus. But another truth is that in twenty twenty
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: six people love if not are addicted to instant gratification
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: and comfort and certainty and predictability, you know. So this
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: is the this is one of the challenges because everyone
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: wants to undo fifteen years of crap that they've done
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: to their body by next Wednesday. And you go, listen, Champ,
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: that's a nice idea, but it's not doable. And the
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: idea that it might take me a year of thinking, doing, choosing, eating,
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: moving better, It might take me a year to get
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: in a place where I am really quite healthy and
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: functional now from where I am at the minute. And
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: which is is that why people keep reaching for the
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: pill and the powder and the potion.
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: I think you're right, and I and you know, one
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: of the points I make in the book is, you know,
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: willpower is easily fatigued. We have lots of data on that,
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: and I present some of the very interesting data from
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: nurses and doctors who have to wash their hands and
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: how you know after the more they have to do
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: it then will themselves to do it, the less likely
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: they are to do it. And to rejuvenate the willpower
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: takes days off. You have to be off for days.
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: What we need to do what you have. You're going
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: to have to get willpower to start the journey. But
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: you want to make the activity part of your habit,
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: structure it into your life, and enjoy that structure while
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: you're going forward. And I think so that it's not
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: willpower it anymore. You feel empty if you're actually not
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: doing it. The other thing I emphasize is because willpower
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: can fatigue, you can't do everything to get to a
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: better healthier state, right. You can't simultaneously diet and exercise
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: and sleep and go out and make friends and do
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: all the other things. Ben Franklin again was brilliant about this.
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: You have to do one thing for four to six
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: weeks and then make it a habit, and then you
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: can move on to the next thing. You know, he
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: is a young man had thirteen virtues that he was
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: trying to get frugality and you know, generosity and humility
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: and all sorts of things, and he said he would
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: focus on one at a time. And I think that's
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: a very important lesson, right, these ideas of I'm going
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: to do seventy five hours of everything and then you know,
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: I'm going to change my life. No, you won't. You'll
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: just be frustrated and you'll give it all up. That's
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: why we give up New Year's resolutions so rapidly. On
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: the other hand, if you say, look, I want to,
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: you know, eat better, So I'm going to focus on
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: eating better, you know. I recommend to people, like some
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: of my research assistants who are not have not had
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: great dietary habits. I said, listen, they are twenty one
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: meals in a week, make a meal one meal one
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: week each week, a new healthy thing one one meal
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: each week, and by the end of a year, you've
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: got fifty new recipes that you can make that are
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: all healthy. Then you can throw a dinner party, you know,
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: And that's the way you have to do it. Figure
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: it out or The other thing I highly recommend is
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: doing wellness activities where you're doing multiple things at once.
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: So you go hiking with a friends, so you've got
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: social interaction, good conversation, and physical activity. Or my favorite
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: is throw a dinner party. You cook good food, you
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: have friends over, you have good conversation, and afterwards you
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: go out for a walk. You got them all. You
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: know that is nobody to do it, and I think
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: you know you're one hundred percent. It's just there isn't
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: a magic bullet here, and the areas we think there's
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: a magic bullet. Sleeping pills, for example, don't work. You know,
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: the American Academy of Sleep Medicine, throw all that stuff out.
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: It doesn't really work. And so we have to understand
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: there's no quick fix. As you point out, you're going
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: to have to exercise for six weeks, make it a
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: habit and fit it into your schedule and get the
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: joy out of it. Yeah.
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: So often the things that we need to do are
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: not the things that we want to do. Like what's
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: going to work for my body? It doesn't work for
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: my mind, Thank you very much. I understand what you're saying.
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: Doc, but not initially, but you know, over time. Look,
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: I started out doing yoga. It was strenuous, it was hard.
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: I wasn't very good at it. Now, if I wake
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: up and I don't do twenty minutes of yoga, I
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: feel bad. I don't feel as invigorated as I do
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: when I do the yoga. So it's become part of
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: my body and part of my routine activity, and I
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: get a lot of pleasure in doing it.
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's been so good to meet you. Can you
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: give people as sixty second synopsis of the book, just
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: so we know what we're going to be looking at
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: when we bought.
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So I go through the six fundamental wellness behaviors.
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: The first thing is the chapter is entitled Don't be
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: a Schmuck, which means take excessive risks and don't do
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: stupid things.
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: So one, I think your dad used to say that
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: to you, didn't he all the time?
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: All the time when we did we were dumb kids.
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: He would hit us on the spack of the head
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: and say, don't be a smuck. You know, don't climb
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: Mount Everest. Right, the mortality rate and climbing Mount Everest
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: is one in one hundred for all comers, and if
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: you're like me, over fifty nine. It's one in twenty five.
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: Dumb move. Not taking your vaccines. Another dumb move. Not
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: doing your cancer screenings another dumb move. Second chapter is
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: social engagement. You should interact with people, your friends and family.
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: You should make sure you're connecting with them your You
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: should also have casual what we're called weak social interactions,
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: where you just talk to people, the barista at your
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: coffee shop. You know, your uber driver, someone you just
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: happen to be sitting next to on a train, plane bus.
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: Someone may be at the beach, your towel is next
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: to them and you start talking about, you know, the
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: nice waves down there in Australia. You should, you know,
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: stay mentally sharp. I've given you, you know, four vaccines
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: that you need to take, among other things. Engage in
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: all the other wellness activities actually keeps your mind sharp too.
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: And then there's eating well, you know, stop with the sodas,
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: stop with the ultra process, junk food, Eat fermented food,
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: whether it's yogurt or kimchi, or cottage cheese or sauer kraut,
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: and more. Fiber. One of the things that most of
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: us in Western countries don't get enough of. Fiber fruits vegetables.
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: Start your morning with berries and yogurt, and your day
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: with your dinner with a sala. You get most of
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: the fiber you need. Then there's physical activity. Three kinds
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: of physical activity. Aerobic activity, get your heart pumping your heart,
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: your breathing rate up. Do that for about one hundred
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: and fifty to three hundred minutes a week. You'll be great. Second,
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: strength training. When you get to fifties or sixties, you
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: begin to lose muscle mass about ten percent every decade.
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: You got to strength train. Now, if you're swim you
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: get both aerobic activity and strength training in one activity. Right,
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: Not everything is so good. And the last one is
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: you need to maintain flexibility and balance so you can
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: move around, get up off the ground, and that you
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: do through yoga. And the last thing is sleep. Unlike
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: all the other wellness activities and behaviors, you can't will
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: yourself to sleep. The more you will yourself to sleep,
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: the less likely you are to sleep. You can only
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: make the bedroom a conducive dark, cool oak tape over
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: the lights on TVs or monitors or whatever it is.
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: Not have caffeine or alcohol for eight hours before you
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: go to sleep. You know, don't use the monitor for
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: an hour before sleep. I like to end the day
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: by reading a real live book with paper, because I've
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: heard of those. And your eyes begin to drop, you
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: know your time to go to sleep. So those are
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: the six rules. Don't be a schmock, make and keep
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: your friends, stay mentally sharp, eat well, exercise and get
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: enough sleep every day.
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: Hi, Doc, it's beIN a pleasure for me anyway, and
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: listeners will love you. Thanks for taking the time, uh
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: and thanks for making your Australian podcast debut. We'll say
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: goodbye off air, but once again, everyone ate your ice
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: cream is then I'm of the duke the book Doctor
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: Zekel and he's famous brothers. Check him out. It's quite
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: an interesting little deep dive I did anyway. But for
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: the minute we'll stop recording and you and I will
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: say goodbye.
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: But thanks again, Doc, Thank you, it's been a pleasure.
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: And when I come to Australia, I'll look you up
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: in Melbourne.
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: That is definitely happening.
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: We'll have dinner. Great, love it, love it.