Latest / The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast / Observer vs. Participant | Understanding the Enneagram Type Five with Kristen Yeh

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Observer vs. Participant | Understanding the Enneagram Type Five with Kristen Yeh · The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so fives experience their inner resources as limited.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_02: So people and emotions and expectations feel costly.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_02: So it's the shift from protecting our energy at all costs to trusting that God is gonna give us what we need in that moment.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_02: Real leadership is more than that knowledge at a distance.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_02: Your team needs your presence.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: I think the hero moment for a five is when you move from the sidelines and start playing the game.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_02: But you don't have to be the loudest person or the quickest to have really strong influence on your team.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think the find moves toward a guide when we stop using that knowledge to protect ourselves or to prove something, and we use it in service of somebody else's breath.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_02: There's so much that this journey of victim, will, and hero died can teach us about ourselves, but also about the Lord and about how faithful he is to give us what we need.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast, the Enneagram for real life.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: Here is where you'll find conversations where faith meets story and strategy for lasting transformation.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Amy Wicks, here to help you find wisdom and wholehearted rhythms for moments that matter most.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: Whether you're learning your type or deepening your spiritual formation, these conversations will remind you that the Enneagram shines a light, but Christ is the transformation.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: We're continuing the Enneagram 5 month.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: We've had two beautiful conversations and two more yet to unfold.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: Today, Kristen Yay is back on the podcast with us.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: She has been a guest before.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: She is also our go-to Enneagram 5 expert because, as we've talked about, Enneagram 5s are not only hard to find, but they also take a little convincing to come onto a podcast.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: So it's true.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's true.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: So we're so grateful, Kristen, to have you today and also give a little bit more insight to something that we haven't expanded on this year so far.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: And that is how the Enneagram applies in working with teams, whether nonprofit business organizations, for-profit, small teams, large teams.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: You've been doing that.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: I've been doing that work as well.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: So we're gonna just dive in and help people apply this to beyond their four doors, if you will, or beyond their four walls.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: Sounds great.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: When we talk about victim, villain, hero, bide, it sounds unique.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: It sounds a little poetic, but we're really talking about the different roles that we've played in life or others have played in our life.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's part of the story work that we do in the whole hearted framework.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: I did four, actually five episodes on this whole topic back in February.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'll link to those shows so you can listen if you're unfamiliar with the structure.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: So invite us, Kristen, to that moment when withdrawal becomes the story for the Enneagram five.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: Where do you see fives getting stuck in this role?
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: And what does that maybe look like?
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: Or internally and externally.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so fives experience their inner resources as limited.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_02: So people and emotions and expectations feel costly.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_02: And so we're weighing the energy that we think something is going to take against the benefit that we think we're going to receive.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: And if a five grows up in an environment that may have felt overwhelming or intrusive or emotionally demanding, they start to believe that those interactions are expensive.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_02: And that doesn't mean that something dramatic happened.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_02: It just might mean that they didn't have much privacy or quiet or really that time to process and think.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe they didn't have very much control over how much access other people had to them.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_02: And so we create that space for ourselves.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_02: We withdraw um either physically or we can be in a group of people and withdraw emotionally.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_02: So we take on a role of being an observer in our lives more than being a participant in our lives and we're controlling our feelings or what we're allowing other people to see the access that they're allowed to have to us.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_02: I did this as a kid in the schoolroom that we had in our basement.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um really had we did we had a blackboard, we had a teacher desk, and we had a student desk that my mom had found at a garage sale.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_02: And so I spent hours down there teaching my class, creating assignments, grading papers.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that was where I went to play.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_02: And looking back, you know, I can see that that was the space that I used to process, to think, to recharge and withdraw.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_02: And so looking back, I can see it.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't see it then.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_02: It was just something that I did.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I love that, Kristen.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: I can see your little girl self there and how fitting because I know you and I have worked together for a long time, many years now.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: Goodness, 21, 22.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: We've talked about this desire and this love of coaching one-on-one.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: And that has been a primary thing that you've done in coaching women through everyday life and into their encore career, really challenging situations.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: And this year, you've spent a lot of time in the front of the room, teaching to larger groups, presenting.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's so fun, that and beautiful full circle where you kind of did this as a young girl, not that you haven't done other teaching situations, but here you are now in this stage in this season of life using the Enneagram in this way.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: Have fun.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's it really is.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I see Gunn's hand in it because he took that dream that I had to be a teacher, and now I'm using it in something that doesn't look traditional, but I'm still teaching and I it's I'm finding so much joy in it.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that the groups and organizations are finding massive benefit.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to give some context specifically around this victim role.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: Again, withdrawal is becoming the story.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: So, how does this show up in business and leadership contexts?
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: And what does that look like for someone in that situation to be working through or to even just be aware that it's showing up and presenting itself?
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, that withdrawal tendency follows us to work.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't just stay in our personal lives.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_02: So it looks like becoming knowledgeable and capable expert, somebody that's that people can rely upon.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: And we lead without letting people get too close.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_02: So that could look like avoiding casual office conversations, you know, just putting our heads down and working, telling ourselves that those conversations might be inefficient or unnecessary.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_02: But really, that's where trust and connection are built.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um it can look like disengaging during meetings or not giving our team our full self.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_02: That victim energy says, everyone needs something from me, but I know how to do it.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's just easier to do it myself.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and so that story becomes focused on what people or what we think people are taking from us without realizing that we are part of that problem.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we could be withholding information, we could be emotionally distant, or we can really be failing to lead and develop other people.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's when we get stuck in in that story and we really confuse being needed for what we know with who we are.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_02: Because in a way, being the expert feels safe, but we do it because we feel like it earns us a place at the table, but we can remain a little bit distant while we do that.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_02: We might have the right answer, we might be able to solve a very complex problem, we might be able to see connections, and that's where we start to put a value without really revealing who we are.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_02: And real leadership is more than that knowledge at a distance.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_02: Your team needs your presence.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: The victim narrative comes in when that distance that feels like protection is really keeping your team from trusting you and feel being led by you.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_02: And so what once did serve you and was helpful is now really holding you back from what you need.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's really good.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think as we talk about that next character, it's important to denote here because sometimes I forget, oh yeah, my friend listing may have not listened to these before or the series that we do about Victim Villain Hero Guide, because it's very important to know that there is a difference between being a victim of at other people's harm or control or their maladaptive behavior, because we've all been victims.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: We've been hurt, misused.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: There have been situations, but what we have agency over is whether or not we're going to stay in that victim mentality.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: And that is really what you're addressing here is living into the lies, the narratives that are unhelpful and keep us stuck instead of just going, well, my natural tendency is withdrawing, but I don't have to stay there.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: And this is the important moment, that roadless traveled moment where we get to decide this fork in the road.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: Do we, are we going to continue to live into the victim mentality narrative and inadvertently become the villain?
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: Or are we going to choose something differently?
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: So, first, eventually that protection and withdrawing becomes isolation.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: So, what does it look like for the five to live into the villain role?
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: And we don't love this.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: We don't love this about us, but it does happen.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so being aware and awake to it, to these blind spots, this is an important moment for us to discern.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I can tell you that it's not pretty, you know, it's not something that we learn to look at or acknowledge.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, but it happens when that withdrawal hardens.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_02: And what we think that we're using to protect ourselves is actually hurting people around us.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_02: If we're hoarding our time or our energy, our attention or our knowledge, those loved ones around us can feel shut out.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_02: And internally, we care very deeply.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_02: But if we're not communicating that to those around us, or if we're not allowing them access to our true selves, then to them it just feels like indifference.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_02: And so that you're a villain and you're not meaning to be, but you're hurting inadvertently those around you.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um and so, you know, sometimes fives can use their knowledge and their expertise as a shield.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_02: We can become the expert and we have that in front of us, and then we can do that without risking vulnerability.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um but then we can also use that expertise as a sword.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_02: We can use what we know to maybe dismiss people, to correct them, or to make them feel less capable.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: None of that is helpful to those around us.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: What we experience as self-protection, those around us can feel as at home or it can feel like our absence.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_02: So that villain turn really happens when those walls that we built around us to feel like we're not gonna be consumed, others from knowing us, and they keep others from feeling loved by us.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, that is really good.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: I even like your turn of phrase, consumed, that fear of being consumed.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of times the phrase catastrophic depletion feels so big.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: And what does that really mean?
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: But I think consumed puts it in layman's terms and very relatable.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: I also think based on what you're saying, it doesn't take much imagination to go, oh, this is what villain would look like in the workplace.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: Have any scenarios or situations to maybe help my five is listening to be, oh, okay, maybe I need to steer away from that.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, in in leadership, it could look like taking lots of time to carefully craft an email when you could have just taken a few steps and had a conversation.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so email.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: That email feels like you have control over your words and you're not risking an unpredictable response.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: But really, it would have been better to communicate something in person.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um it could look like not engaging in check-ins or difficult conversations or really being co-active with encouraging your team or taking time to build trust.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we could think that our time that we're spending on strategy or problem solving is the best use of our time, but we're not tending to the people who are on our team.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_02: We can avoid, we can avoid speaking until something feels like we have it right, you know, and then that just hurts those around us when we're keeping things to ourselves.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, leaders can think like they're offering their best work and protecting their time, but to your team, it could feel like you're distant or disengaged or unavailable.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_02: And again, that in the workplace, it's not that you don't care about your team.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_02: You care a lot about your team, but you're not giving them your presence.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_02: And so eventually they might stop coming to you.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_02: Not because they don't need that leadership from you, they do, but because they've learned not to expect your availability.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's that's where the villain shows up in the workplace.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's good.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: I love that you're highlighting these simple, sneaky moments because all of it sounds a little bit benign.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: There's nothing malicious, there's no malintent, there's not a team, you know, moment.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's all coming from a self-protecting place and presuming that other people want as much space as you would typically want.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not the case.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: I love turning the story to the hero moment and this opportunity that we have when we, I believe it comes from when we name the moments that we have been a victim.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: We seek out healing, giving the Lord our brokenhearted pieces and him mending and healing and us showing up and saying yes to the work of spiritual formation and choosing to dismantle the victim mentality, the lies that feed it, and apologizing, repenting for the ways that we've been a villain.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: Again, usually without the intent, but still moments that maybe we need to own.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: So we have this hero moment.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: We're rising up, we're stepping in.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: I love the thought of this, especially in lineup, leaders and those in the workplace and what it looks like when fives are having their hero moment and the ribble effect of positive impact that it can have.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's great that you highlighted once we turn from villain to hero, it's not a full stop, it's a journey.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_02: And we're continually having to go back and see ways that we, you know, are playing the victim or being the villain.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not a one turn, but it is that hero energy for the five is when they choose to stay, when they choose to stay physically, when they choose to stay emotionally or relationally, when the every instinct inside of them wants to retreat.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's really recognizing that a feeling of discomfort or depletion doesn't mean that we need to withdraw.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_02: So we stay in a conversation long work.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_02: We share an emotion before it's really fully understood or organized in our minds, and we move toward a relationship rather than waiting for somebody to come to us.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that growth means when we recognize that when preparation and really researching are no longer serving us.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's really asking for help, for support.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's recognizing we don't have unlimited resources, and that sometimes others need to meet needs that we thought that we could meet by ourselves.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's this shift from protecting our energy at all costs to trusting that God is gonna give us what we need in that moment, and we can receive from him every step of the way.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, Kristen, you said that so well.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's really easy for a five to assume that the hero moment means expanded capacity or yes, sometimes more supernatural energy, but also I think how you frame it's simply saying, hey, I do have needs and I need support, I need help, I need community to fulfill this obligation.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: I can't do it myself, no matter how much Russ I get, or expanded capacity, because the reality that is true for all of us.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: We need one another so desperately.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: We weren't meant to work in isolation or without the support and help of others.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's just not as beautiful.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: And every situation is so complex and needs the unique perspective that everyone offers or the unique gifting.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: So this is really good.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'd love to hear for you or what you've seen, those hero moments and just working with teams lately.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: I know you've had a lot of beautiful experiences where people are having the aha moments.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: You're not necessarily doing as deep as some of the spiritual story work with teams, but yeah, a lot of the hero moment comes from recognition or going, oh, that's why I do this or that, and this person's different.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd love to hear some of the things you've observed and witnessed.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, I think those hero moments aren't dramatic, but they're a series of moments, right?
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: Both personally and professionally.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: And it's when when we can own that the way that we're wired adds value to relationships or to leadership teams.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: So I mean, personally, um, in my professional life, I I bodies are not flashy, you know, and we don't talk much during meetings.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, but I was comparing my contribution to those who spoke loudly or quickly or had a commanded presence in the room.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: And my leadership didn't look like theirs.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: And so I underestimated what I brought to the table.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_02: And so the hero moments are was realizing what was actually.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Happening while I was quietly listening.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_02: And this is what I'm helping other people to see too, for you know, the fives on their team, that while I'm quietly listening, I'm collecting pieces of the conversation and organizing them into a cohesive narrative, seeing patterns that other people might be missing.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: And then when I embrave and ask the question, it helps people to connect ideas that they didn't before or see things from a new angle or a new perspective.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think for fines, the hero moment is just knowing that your contribution is not going to look like everyone else's.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_02: And that's a good thing.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: Trust your natural God-given lawyering and use it to offer your team a perspective that they might not be able to see without you.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_02: So you know, it feels really risky at first and exposing.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: You know, to speak up.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_02: But you don't have to be the loudest person or the quickest to have really strong influence on your team.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_02: Just offer that perspective instead of keeping it inside.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_02: And it's fun.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_02: I love speaking in word pictures.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's, I think the hero moment for five is when you move from the sidelines and start playing the game.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's it's riskier and it's more exposing, and you can get hurt during the game.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: But the rewards are worth it time and time again because you get genuine connection, you get deeper relationships, and you're you have the the joy of giving and receiving care that you didn't have before.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: So it's such a fuller life than being on the sidelines.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_02: You know, absolutely the whole time.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's good, Kristen.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: And it reminds me, and I haven't brought it up yet this month again, but last month we did some summer detours, if you will, some mini road trips into different lanes.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the conversations we had was about the new bug, The Other Bennett Sister, because it is also a mini-series.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: And the main character is the Enneagram Five, which is not typical.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: The heroine is not, or the main character.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so what you just outlined in some of that growth narrative and that that hero moment is when we connect with others, when we open ourselves up, take the risk, make our emotions available.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: As a five, that's a really big deal.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it's the other types where that is easy.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: Do not brush aside those big moments and understand if you are given that from someone whose lens is this personality, that you're being offered something really, really beautiful.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: So take note of it.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a gift when we choose to offer it.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, last but not least for this conversation, the role of the guide.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: And like you said, this whole hearted journey is a journey.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: There is never a moment of arrival.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: There's not this, it's not the pearly gates until we're with Jesus face to face.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like just hear me in this.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: So oftentimes behind the scenes, we're as coaches, we're talking about this whole hearted journey.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: And even though we've taken the gift and the blessing of being guides by the side, we're not done with our own story.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: Even though we're helping guide others through theirs, we're still revisiting ours.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: We still have moments of being a victim of a villain and we have to have a hero moment.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: But this guide, while it's not a point of arrival, it is a moment where we have done the work in certain aspects of our story.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe in this facet of life or this arena, God has uniquely anointed and designed us for a purpose to be able to guide people through things.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: So the guide does hold wisdom because they've lived this journey and they've come on the other side.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: So give us some insight for an Enneagram 5 guide, which I'll sign up for all day long because five's my line of growth.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: So fives, show me, tell me.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think the mind moves toward a guide when we stop using that knowledge to protect ourselves or to prove something, and we use it in service of somebody else's growth.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, when we're noticing those patterns and those connections and seeing things beneath the surface, giving those gifts to those around us is really when we're moving into the guide role.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_02: And insight without our presence feels clinical and detached.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_02: So it that's good.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_02: We can't be a guy and be on the sidelines or be detached.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: It's really when we're creating a space for others to see themselves clearly.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_02: And for me, as a coach, one-on-one or you know, in a leadership setting, it's resisting the impulse to solve the problem, right?
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_02: So it's maybe staying with that leader in their confusion, asking curious questions and giving bond time to discover what they know, but really haven't yet been able to name.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: Because, as we know, that's where the transformation happens when they're able to see it themselves and put words to a pattern that has been happening.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_02: So the Enneagram is such a great resource because it allows us as you know, leaders and guides to understand patterns beneath the surface.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_02: And it and we can help leaders become more curious about themselves, but also about the people on their team that they're leading.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_02: I can ask questions like, why does that situation feel so threatening?
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_02: You know, let's dig into that a little bit.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_02: Or what is that story that you're telling yourself about this?
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_02: Or helping them see, are there things that your team is experiencing from you that you might not be noticing?
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_02: And so there's that work with an individual leader, but then when we can bring the team together and I can work with the entire team, I can bring those individual insights into the relationships and the dynamics that are actually taking place inside of that room.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's so fun to help a team to build that shared language and have vocabulary with one another to understand their differences and their unique giftings and abilities and the things that each of them bring to that team to help them to communicate more clearly and really to approach tension with curiosity instead of judgment.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_02: So it's it's such a joy to work with a team and to see those light bulbs go off, to recognize the unique aspects of what people are contributing that maybe we weren't even realizing how important that was.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and to give people a voice, maybe that that need it, or to help people just understand the value of all the gives on personalities that you have as part of your team.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things that I love about fives who've done the work or who are in that guide role, or maybe even one of the telltale ways you know they are really at the guide level is what you just demonstrated.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's just not facts anymore.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's just not knowledge.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: It is lived experience, embodied wisdom.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: And there's so much richness to that to offer the world.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: So this is really good.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: I want to make sure I get to a couple of community questions around that come in typically for related to Enneagram 5, but specifically also for business and leadership.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: But first, we talked about some of the narratives or the lies that we might believe that keep us stuck.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: The vision here again is our starting point doesn't have to be our stick point.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: Just because we are maybe paying attention and we're a little bit more aware we're living into a victim mentality, or we have been a victim or a villain, even, or we want to get beyond our hero moment.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: What are some of the false scripts and maybe even the answer, the voice of love, God's love, that satisfies or gives a true answer, truth to those false scripts?
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'll give a couple that that I have uh believed.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_02: You know, one is I'll engage once I know enough or feel comfortable.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_02: And the truth is that I am enough.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_02: God says that, and my identity is in him.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_02: And so, because of that, I can bravely take the first step.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_02: Another is I don't have enough energy to give, and if I engage, I'll run out.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_02: But the truth that I'm learning is I don't have to manufacture or afford that.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_02: You know, God's gonna provide everything I need in that moment.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I think expanding my view of what that provision looks like, because sometimes it's energy, sometimes he provides the energy, sometimes he provides the space to rest, sometimes he provides help, sometimes he allows me to be cared for by somebody else, and all of that is his provision.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_02: And the last one is it's safer not to be vulnerable or let other people see the real me.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_02: And the truth is that genuine connection reclines that vulnerability, and people benefit when I allow them to see the real me, not what I offer, but who I really am.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_02: And the joy is that I benefit from that too.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_02: You know, being known carries risk, but it allows me to experience love and connection and care that I was trying to find while keeping myself safely hidden.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_02: But you can't experience it when you're behind those walls, it doesn't happen that way.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_02: That's not the way that God designed us.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_02: He designed us, as you said, to be in a community.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, well, so beautiful.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'm imagining any five friend listening is writing down some of those voices of love for sure to combat.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: We are typically deciphering as we're going through each month, what makes this unique to me?
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: What is it about my type?
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: What is an overlay?
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: What is an introvert versus extrovert?
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: So all of those different curiosities and questions are playing into the self-awareness question of am I really for today?
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: Is am I really an Indian grim five?
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: Or am I an introvert or just someone who prefers to be alone?
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: All of those things.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's an honest question to ask.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I wonder what you would have for us to just on that journey of figuring it out.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that's a great question.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: Introverts uh recharge by being alone.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_02: And any gun type can be an introvert.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_02: So the the five lens comes in where you're really fearing that you don't have enough inner resources to give.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you could ask yourself the question: do I feel like I never quite have enough?
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_02: Even when I've had plenty of time alone.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_02: That could be helpful.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_02: The fives also struggle with avarice or greedily hoarding our space and our alone time.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_02: Such an intense phrase.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_02: It could be just allowing yourself to notice whether you feel threatened when somebody you feel like somebody is taking more than your internal budget allows.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_02: And then this is a tough one, but in relationships, just asking the honest question: are you weighing connection against an internal cost calculator running in the background?
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, finds love very deeply.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_02: And unfortunately, sometimes that love can be rationed.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_02: So it's getting honest and just asking yourself those hub questions that can help you discern whether or not you have another beautiful phrase, or even a word rationed.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think rationing is probably at the forefront of a fives mind for so many elements of life.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: Good word, beautifully said.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, with this idea of you having a lot of time spent bits on the ground with teams for business and leadership development specifically, how would you be a guide by the side of this moment?
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: Four of five.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: Someone's asking, I recognize the five pattern myself, I overprepare, but I undercommunicate, and I'm realizing the team is feeling disconnected.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: Where would they begin?
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: Where do they start in this journey?
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, I think naming that pattern is the first step.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_02: So just really getting honest about uh what you're seeing and recognizing that your team doesn't need more perfectly prepared information.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_02: What they need is more access to you.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_02: So I would just encourage people to start small.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe it's choosing one person on your team and allowing them to see a little bit of your uncertainty.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_02: What might sound like, you know, I'm thinking this through, but I wanted to bring you into the process.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_02: And then invite somebody else in before you have all the answers.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_02: Or maybe it's challenging yourself to speak up this week in a meeting before you have a response perfectly crafted.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_02: You can offer something while it's forming and say, well, I haven't fully connected all the pieces yet, but here's what I'm noticing.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_02: Those just little things in office interactions start small and just start to recognize the value in time spent with other people in relationship.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_02: Share something small from your life and then ask a curious question and stay long enough to hear the answer.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_02: Your team needs your presence.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's not that you need to transform into this very talkative or emotionally expressive person, it's just practicing giving people a little more access to you than maybe what has previously felt comfortable.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_02: And it can be easier the more that you do it.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I would flip the tables as well.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: If you are on a team with a five or your leader is a five, maybe they don't have language for it yet, but you've noticed that pattern play out, the withdrawing, over praying, over planning.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: I would say to go in with a posture of curiosity, match their questions, their curiosity, the wonder, match um some of their pace and space while also continuing to invite them to share, continuing to invite them to participate, their presence, their knowledge, their wisdom to the table.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: I have learned with the fives, and I I finally get thinked sometimes with fives, like, thank you for continuing to ask me because my first inclination is no, but it doesn't mean I don't want to.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, don't give up on the fives.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: Just keep asking.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: And eventually we'll give it to you.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my goodness.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: I have loved everything about this conversation.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: There's been so much richness here, Kristen.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_00: There's also a lot we didn't necessarily cover in all this beautiful time that we had.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm just curious, any last minute wisdom that you want to give us here before we wrap up and close?
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I would say, you know, just to continue to stay and to notice.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_02: I think there's a lot of growth in offering more of yourself, you know, than what you think you can or should or have in the past.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_02: And really entering into a prayerful conversation with the Lord, giving that fear of depletion to him and just asking him to give you what you need in the moment.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_02: There's so much that this journey of victim villain hero died can teach us about ourselves, but also about the Lord and about how faithful he is to give us what we need throughout our journey.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: Beautifully said, Kristen, you've given us so much here.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_00: And while only an Enneagram 5 who's done the work and who's shown up for others, guided others, you've given us almost like a map of the Enneagram 5 inner world and the territory.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for giving specific wisdom to the fives, but also other quiet leaders who I know are listening in this community.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: I think you've addressed so many elements of this really well.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: So thanks for giving of your time and energy.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: And just want to put a little plug in there for a friend who's listening, and maybe they'd like to invite Kristen to your team.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's a 90-minute workshop, or maybe it's a several day with lots of one-on-one sessions offered to it as well.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: Kristen has done all of that.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I know she's gotten glowing and raving reviews with her time to spent in those organizations.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: And it's really for great, beautiful fruits.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: So, Kristen, thank you for contributing that on the wholehearted team and for showing up today.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for the opportunity.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's been a joy to talk today.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for joining me for the Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: If this conversation spoke to you, please share it with a friend.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: You can also visit simply wholehearted.com to take the free Enneagram quiz and also get your personalized podcast playlist specific for your Enneagram type.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: And remember, friend, your starting point doesn't have to be your stuff point.