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You Are Either A Risk Or An Investment with Bill Seaman · Automation Ladies

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to Automation Ladies.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_02: The only podcast we know of where girls talk about industrial automation.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you to Inductive Automation for sponsoring this episode.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_02: This is Nikki today.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_02: I actually have a guest today that when Ali saw it on the recording, she's like, uh, Nikki, can you do this one?
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know that I want to talk to an HR person.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_02: And like, oh, oh, don't worry.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: I actually invited this HR person to come on because he's the first HR person that I've ever had a conversation with where I was like, whoa, I want to talk to him some more.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you're welcome.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: So today's guest is Bill Seaman from Philomatic.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: We met at the uh PMMI um road show in Wichita, Kansas, some weeks ago.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_02: I think it was the week before OT's Gata Con.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_02: And uh like, you know, at events, I love to socialize and sometimes I end up just talking to, you know, random people.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: And Bill is one of those people that we ended up having to drink at the bar and probably talking about for an hour or whatever.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I was very quick to then offer him a uh guest slot on the podcast because I thought, hey, I want I would love more of this conversation, but um, I had to go to the bathroom.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know enough about myself to know that when I say hey, I'll be right back.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: And then I walk through a crowd of people, I will probably never be back.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_04: Um we had to make sure to socialize with other because I think we were excluding some people because we were talking so much.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: And and that is kind of the point of networking events.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_02: You're supposed to network with more than one person.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_02: So part of why I love having this show is it gives me the opportunity to have more conversations with people that I want to talk to and get to know.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I thought our audience would probably love to get to know Bill as well.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and yeah, it was a it was a very interesting and unique thing for me to to talk to somebody kind of in that people management function that I connected with so well.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: So Bill works for Philomatic, who is uh a machine builder um from OEM that is part of PMMI.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I guess that is all the introduction that I'm gonna give him.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: And Bill, thank you so much for finally coming onto the show and doing this recording with me.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_04: Absolutely.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you for having me.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_04: Uh and it's not the first time even recently I've heard like, you know, why am I talking to an HR guy?
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_04: Uh I was actually doing an audit the other day uh with someone from a customer, and about three hours into the audit, he looks at me, he goes, Are you really HR?
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_04: He goes, Why do you know this stuff?
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_04: Uh like he goes, we usually avoid HR like to plague.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, Well, it's probably because a little bit of my background, you know, I started in recruitment.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_04: He goes, enough said.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_04: He's like, you know, I'm like, yeah, I got paid for years to talk to really smart people and learn all this cool stuff.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and you have to learn to really understand information quickly and digest it and hopefully sound credible.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_04: Uh and it was funny, he's like, Yeah, because you're not typical HR, but uh I'm not.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_04: So my background is uh a little bit.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_04: I started, of course, in talent acquisition recruitment uh 20 some years ago, um, but specifically working with uh a staff agency doing hardware engineering and manufacturing.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_04: So it was a lot of technicians, engineers, you know, really across all industry, but really focused a lot on the manufacturing in that sector, uh, but all levels uh doing that.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_04: And I did that for a number of years.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and then of course, you know, like a lot of people want to try something different and flip around.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_04: So I moved into media.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_04: I worked at the local Baltimore Sun and you know, and then moved into education testing and more technology roles.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_04: So kind of, you know, migrated through the career and found that in recruitment, uh specifically, you get laid off a lot.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_04: So I've been with a lot of companies uh over the years.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and prior to joining here at Philomatic, I was actually with Dra Ghost, which is a cybersecurity company, which was really interesting to come in because they do OT cyber.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, wow, I started my career, you know, uh helping, you know, hiring people to build and design and you know, work on all this equipment, and now I'm protecting it.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_04: And then uh, of course, uh unfortunately I got laid off uh there and uh ended up joining Filmatic about two and a half years ago.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_04: I came in initially to just do some contract recruitment work for them.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_04: They had, you know, uh a number of people retiring, pretty typical within, you know, manufacturing where you have employees there for 20, 30, 40 years, and suddenly they're retiring out.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_04: And uh realize, oh my God, we need to find some other people.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_04: So I came in to uh help them with that for a few months and had the opportunity to join full-time.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_04: Uh and then I took over HR uh because I was like, I'm sick of being laid off, so I need to get out of the recruitment and kind of uh jump in and be do some more with them.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_04: So really enjoyed my time here.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_04: But that's kind of what brought me full circle into uh into this world.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_04: And it's neat because it ties so many of the elements of my background together from where I started off into the cyber, into the technology.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_04: So really kind of full gambit uh exposed me to a lot over the years.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's really cool.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of um I have a few different points, like observations that I'll I'll bring up, but because of my ADHD, I'll start with one and then I'll forget about all the other ones.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_04: Mine too.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I was about to say it seems like you know, kind of trying everything on the buffet is is one of our personality traits.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_02: And that's pretty cool that you've been able to kind of utilize those similar skills, but in different types of industries.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm sure I learned a lot from each one.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but that's interesting that you say like recruiters get laid off a lot or in recruiting, because you're really only recruiting when you're growing as a company, like actively recruiting a lot or to you need like a lot of people for that.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_02: And then if a company ever can starts contracting, they're gonna need to lay off people and they're not gonna need to recruit new ones.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_02: So I had never thought about that before.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_02: But then, like a natural selection, the recruiter that recruits new people getting laid off is kind of ironic, but at the same time, like makes a lot of sense.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and often we don't even end up in the layoff phase because you don't even have to go flat or start declining.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_04: As soon as they stop accelerating, you know, it's kind of like, oh, we're going into this mode.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_04: It you know, comes down.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_04: So over the years, I've never made it more than five years anywhere, which is terrible to say.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, but it's just the nature of the beast.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, I am so sick of moving around so constantly.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_04: So I wanted to make sure I pivoted my career into something hopefully going to be more uh I can stay for longer term and you know, really make a bigger impact of it and do something different.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_02: You say that five years or less sounds terrible.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_02: I've never been I've never been there longer than five years, except for my except for my internship.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_02: I like interned in the same place from middle school through college.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_02: So that's the longest since I've ever had.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I did think I was gonna work there.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but the company they wasn't big enough to really support like what where I was going.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_04: Um it blew my mind because we had so many people here were the decades.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, it was like suddenly 30 and 40 years.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_04: We had in October, we had someone retire after 49 and another one after 42.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_04: So when I joined, I was like, wow, this is just different to spend your whole career really with one place.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it was like timing for me.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_02: I like I graduated college in 2008 and everybody was getting laid off everywhere.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_02: And so I I was like, Oh, this whole like find a good company and just stay there like isn't a thing anymore.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because I just was seeing a lot of people that had been somewhere a long time and it seemed like they were the ones having more trouble getting a new job than people that had like different types of skills or had tried different things.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_02: So what do you what do you think?
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um do you have any advice for people that like have been laid off maybe for the first time?
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_02: And it seems like probably like the scariest, most awful thing that can happen to some people.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it really is because it takes you off guard on that.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_04: And you're right, um, you know, it it can be a blessing and a curse to have that longevity at one place.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_04: Um, you know, so employers often love it.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_04: I know the owners here, they always want to see, you know, that longevity, they want to repeat it, which which can be, you know, which is great.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_04: You show the dedication.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_04: But on the flip side, the problem is, I think is you have to make sure how you talk about it.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_04: Because if someone's only been to one place, you know, are they gonna be adaptable?
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_04: Are they gonna be flexible?
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_04: Are they going to apply it here, you know, into this environment, only know one way to do it.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_04: So I think it's really important on someone who's only been to one place.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_04: When you go, you still want to be absolutely confident in whatever topic you're talking about, but leave room for openness to say to kind of explain why.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_04: Well, we did it here this way, this is the way we approached it.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_04: But you want to be confident, but leave a little bit of wiggle room because they might, you know, do it a different way.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_04: And to be, and you want to show that you're open to it, because that can be the biggest challenge is often that openness, or are they so set in their ways that they're not going to be flexible?
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_04: So those are kind of some of the first, I think, objections that you often kind of put out there.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_04: I want to overcome and see is that flexibility, that adaptability to make sure that they could fit in.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and and what are they doing to continually learn?
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_04: I think is the other thing.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_04: So if you've been to one place, I think it depends on how you tell the story.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_04: But if you've been in a series of different roles and taken on different things, that that's fantastic.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_04: You can really kind of tout that of I learned here, I moved here, took this opportunity to shows that you know you're really a team player and learn a lot.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_04: Or if you're really just in one area, you know, where was the growth?
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_04: And you want to be able to be able to tell that story of kind of where was the growth, where was the additional value, you know, um, on there, even if you're just in the same, you know, almost discipline or area, uh, how did it differ, you know?
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_04: And I look at it from like our engineer standpoint.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_04: One of the things I did was level them up, right?
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_04: And to to make sure we had steps and growth.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_04: And it was a really interesting conversation because it was like, what is the difference between, you know, a mechanical engineer and I have four levels mechanical, mechanical design, senior, and principal.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_04: And so I wanted to show these steps.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_04: But in reality, whether you're an engineer or a principal, when you get the job, what they're gonna do is have to design the machine from A to Z, uh, you know, kind of throughout.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_04: You know, so how do you kind of quantify that?
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_04: And so that was interesting to sit down and have a lot of conversations with the managers because it's the same skills being used, the same tools being used, but really the difference is the application of those.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_04: You know, as just the engineer, you may have a lot more oversight, someone kind of checking everything to go through.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_04: You hit that design, you're gonna be a little more autonomous.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_04: But the leap is really when you hit the senior, you're gonna be autonomous, but then I expect you to work with vendors.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_04: I expect you to know selections, to know the market.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_04: You know, you're bringing a lot more just depth and breadth of the experience and exposures that you can lead on, not to just run more efficiently, but it's bringing more value into it.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_04: And then, you know, hopefully you mentoring people as well.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_04: And then as a principal, I expect you to be like the SME.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_04: That's equivalent to like a leadership role, just someone who doesn't want to go into people management, but really to be able to, you know, step in, understand all the gambits of it, and um, you know, and the I'd say the ancillary things go, not just the job, but how does it affect the others and you know, taking it two steps beyond the view?
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's really interesting.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, since I've never been um an actual engineer, the the technical roles and things like that I don't know too much about.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I have a friend that he's he's looking at kind of a career track that is going to be like a technical fellow, right?
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's one where you're not in people management, but a way to kind of um and so I was that's an interesting point to me because I've kind of thought that like oh, I'm not really a people manager, like I want to be an individual contributor because I feel like I I think I felt like there was something maybe wrong with not doing the work and just telling other people what to do.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I think I just wasn't maybe confident enough in myself and how I do things.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, or I I don't know, or maybe it was just like age or my experience, but I've just now I'd say in the last year started to become more comfortable with the fact that I probably should be managing more people rather than just doing everything myself.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the other thing is just like naturally running into limits of how much I can accomplish as a single person.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I have a lot more uh ideas ideas and things that I could do if I had more ability to do them.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_02: And that's I think that's the role of a manager to some degree.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_04: And you have to be able to step back and go, you know, I would do it 100% this way, but you know, you got to give people the autonomy uh to do that.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_04: And you have to let go of the control a little bit, and that is hard, especially right now.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_04: You know, you want things a certain way to do it, and as an individual contributor, like I control all the all the pieces of it.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_04: So uh, you know, it's definitely a different skill set.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_04: And I think finally I'm seeing more and more companies start to recognize that because it it used to be, you know, kind of that growth.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_04: It's like, well, I don't want to be a manager, well, I'm stuck here.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_04: I have to take that track.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_04: And companies made and companies make the mistake all the time.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_04: They take their most seasoned person and say, You're the most senior, we're gonna make you a manager.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_04: They're not good with people.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_04: It just destroys stuff.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_04: It is a separate skill set that needs to be matured and developed and grown and supported.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, people don't come into it, but it's almost like we throw you into the manager hat and we say, go manage people, and we don't give you the tools or the support to do it.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and it just doesn't do much good for anyone there.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so I'm seeing a lot more trends where recognize that, and I'm having those conversations internally.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_04: Where do you want to grow to?
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_04: What is your skill on that?
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_04: And you know, you can grow just as equal and get compensated just as much in an individual contributor role.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, but we have to understand what that value is that you're gonna bring to it and where's your comfort level?
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_04: Because it some people you're just not a people person.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_04: Uh I get it.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_04: Uh so you know, and it makes my job harder when we stick those people in there because then everyone quits and now I gotta hire a whole new team.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: So you feel like a lot of companies in our space, um, and and I guess when I say our space, like uh well, being an equipment manufacturer and stuff, like do you do you have any peers that you talk to that are in similar functions as you at these other companies?
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_02: Because I know like PMMI facilitates some of those types of conversations, um, like the max member sharing groups, uh, which is something that I've just started to experience.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_02: I've been to a sales one.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um do they have ones for HR and have you joined that?
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like, do you know what's going on in in your, I don't know, your competitors or your friends' companies when it comes to this kind of stuff?
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_04: Not as much as I'd like to to be candid on it.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I I want to get more involved in the PMI that Max uh, you know, those groups on it.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_04: I just hadn't had the time.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_04: But locally I have been doing stuff with uh the Maryland uh extension.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_04: It's MEP.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_04: I forget what the things are, but it's uh so with our local MEP, uh they put on a series of things I've gone through over the last few years quite a bit.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_04: And they do one that's geared towards HR and then one geared towards, you know, technology and what's happening in the industry strictly for manufacturing.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_04: So locally I've been getting involved in going to those, which have been uh definitely helpful on just seeing, you know, others are facing the same thing.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, just give me some insights into those.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_02: Because my general feeling is that, and this is just like from people I talk to in the industry and and whatever, that like a lot of our manufacturing companies are having these challenges, like yeah, doing things kind of the old way, right?
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_02: They're advertising positions that are very rigid and their requirements.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I've seen some oopsies where they'll be like referring to the candidate as he, for instance.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_02: And so, like, I don't know if you expect to think that a woman can't do the job, or you just don't realize that how you phrase it is totally going to turn women off from like applying for the job.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, or this whole like, yeah, you're our best person, so let's just promote you to manager, like those sorts of old school ways of hiring, recruiting, retention, like they don't seem to be working very well.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't know if that's just like a uh an artifact that I'm still hearing and seeing, or if that's kind of still the majority of companies in our space.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_04: I I see, I think you're seeing it shifting because you do have a lot of old school they they're just stuck in their ways onto it.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_04: And and you hit something I think important when it comes to like job descriptions.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_04: It's that, you know, uh discrimination that happens uh in biases uh from the advertisement.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_04: So it's something because I spent my career in talent acquisition, I preach constantly to folks.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_04: It's like when you write, especially the requirement section, right?
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_04: Understand what is actually required because you will see stuff like I need a degree.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_04: It's both uh I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_04: You can't have a degree.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_04: Well, you know, they just but they require the degree, and in reality, it's not required, but uh they're not they don't understand that you can't do that.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_04: So automatically, and you then they list these requirements in nice to haves or must-haves and nice to haves.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_04: And I always encourage people get rid of the nice to haves.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, sometimes I have my mind just you know, got to play the game uh and put something up people want, but I I hate that because what you tends to happen is um, you know, and it goes by, you know, uh gender and sex, I think, and race, but like white males will apply to anything.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, they hit 20% of it, they're gonna apply.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, 50%, they're gonna apply.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_04: But you start hitting like women and minorities tend not to apply until they feel they've hit 80% of the qualifications.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_04: Well, companies will have those qualifications so high that aren't realistic because in reality, you know, if I find someone that has lust, but they're a good fit, they're smart, they're driven, uh, you know, there's always wiggle room on what you can do and bring the right person in.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_04: And they make that mistake constantly.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_04: And it's not even purposeful in so many ways, but they're having an adverse impact on the market by just putting too many qualifications there.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_04: So I was encouraged, it's like, let's dumb it down a little bit to the point of what does it take to do the job, right?
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_04: And you know, let's I go after this kind of performance profile, which is the Lou Adler method.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_04: It's like, I don't want a job description that's gonna be due to these responsibilities, boring.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, tell me what you're gonna do, you know, paint a picture of it on the requirements.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_04: You know, I want to kind of what are you gonna actually do day to day?
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_04: Let's be real on that.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_04: And then same thing with requirements.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_04: What are the absolute things that you gotta have in order to be to do this?
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_04: And let's focus on those because there's certain things that you know automatically will take people out where it's it's drives me nuts because you know it can be a skill easily learned.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_04: Um, you know, I remember one time I got rejected from a job because it was I didn't have a specific app contracting system, right?
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_04: That I had worked with in ATS.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_04: Um I'm really good with those systems.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_04: Usually any company I've been in, within a day or two, I have it down.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_04: Within a week, I'm usually teaching others to do it because they're all structured the same.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_04: It's insert here.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_04: Look at it, workflows.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_04: I get it.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_04: Uh I got declined for that.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_04: And I see companies making that type of mistake all the time.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_04: It's like, just somebody can learn that really quick.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_04: You know, let's focus on the stuff that takes longer.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, so yeah, there's just a lot of I think ignorance in that.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_04: Um, some of the old school uh mentality to to do that that I think hits the market uh negatively.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_02: This made me think, like, as a salesperson too, because like I know CRM systems, there's a bajillion of them out there in whether it's a Salesforce or Hubspot or ACT, which I started with in like 2005.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, they're all they're flavors of the same thing.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um I've used an in-house when.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_02: So how how is like the specific experience with that?
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_02: Unless I'm like a system administrator for that software only, that makes it sense to be that specific.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_04: Um I think that ties into almost what I was saying earlier about you have to be able to explain that I know my function and I'm willing to apply it in different ways, right?
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, from the skills when you're laid off.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_04: Because like when I go in there and say I don't have that, I have to just take a moment to explain.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_04: I've worked with like 10 different ones.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_04: I've walked into everyone blind on it.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_04: But here's what here's my method, my approach to where I can pick it up quickly.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_04: Because you have to, you know, you you have to walk away to instill confidence that they can be confident in you, right?
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_04: And that's really the it's risk mitigation, you know, through the whole interview process.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_04: Like, you know, uh, everyone is either a risk or an investment.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_04: You're gonna fall into one category.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_04: Companies want to make an investment, they don't want to take a risk.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_04: So your job as a candidate is to always kind of paint the picture of why am I the investment?
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_04: Whether it's because I can learn stuff pretty quickly, I'm capable of doing this, I can apply it.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_04: But throughout, no matter what it is about positioning yourself as that investment on every step.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's a great point.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_02: And and a great point for some of our listeners that are like, let's say earlier on in their careers, um, because you really are at that point where you should be learning stuff all the time.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: You can learn quickly.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, another thing I'll say, like, and you you've had you've done a lot of hiring on the uh engineering side, but would you say the same thing kind of applies to like let's say you've worked with Rockwell PLCs your entire career?
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um like just go and learn one more thing on the side, and then then you can say, like, hey, here's my method for learning new ideas.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Like if I can transfer my skills from this vendor to that vendor if I've given the opportunity.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: I just need you know, this is this XYZ that I do.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: Do you do you think that like I guess um I'm trying to formulate my question here without saying too much.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_02: I we've got to be a little bit more than a lot of people.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: Go for it.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_04: I think I know where you're going, so I'm gonna cut.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_04: I'm gonna I'm reading your mind.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_04: Um well, I just had actually before I came on here, I had a phone interview with a field service technician.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_04: And it was really interesting because our field service technicians are also building the machine.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_04: So about 70% of the time, they're building a machine from the ground up, but then when we deploy it and ship it, they're going out there doing the installation, the commissioning, and then they may go on service calls.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_04: So the same type of skills are applied differently.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_04: Whether you're field service, you're troubleshooting, testing, repairing.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and then of course, whether building from the ground up, you know, using schematics.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_04: So it's always interesting when you have to have people who come from an industrial maintenance background, right?
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_04: So they have those skills in troubleshooting, but are they comfortable coming in and building?
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_04: How do they learn kind of and apply those skills?
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_04: So usually if it's a little bit of a tangent background, I try to understand that.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_04: And so the gentleman I was talking to, it was he did a really, really good job at, you know, uh of dropping in some other things to really show me how he learned, you know, where he started in one area and H V A C, I think, and became a sheet melt, and then did some CNC machining before it became industrial.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_04: So we had this kind of mixed background.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but then he throws out, which I thought was great.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_04: Um, he's like, yeah, I'm a big car enthusiast.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_04: You know, one of the things I do is, you know, I love to build race cars.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_04: My dad and I, you know, we'll we'll buy a car, build it from scratch to go through.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_04: And in our world, it's like the mechanic has been always really a good, trainable, uh, you know, type of person coming from that background.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_04: So, but what that showed me was he loves to learn.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_04: He's he's not lazy on there.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_04: He always wants to keep busy and always trying to take on new challenges.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_04: So in explaining that, it was like he was able to kind of pull in and demonstrate to me through just general conversation and sharing that's like this person likes to learn and they take on, they take the initiative to do it.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_04: And that has been a big trend.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_04: I saw a ton in cyber and a lot in the other areas where you know when you need training, you need development, I think this goes to a key thing.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_04: The worst thing you can say is, I can do anything if you train me.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_04: No, I don't want you because you just put the onus on me.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_04: It's my responsibility to teach you on that.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_04: In theory, we know it is, but that's not the right mentality.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_04: It's like I want someone who wants to learn.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_04: So when you find those enthusiasts who just are generally curious, they get involved in these different things, go to different networking events, go build the cars on the weekend of it, but they're constantly challenging themselves, learning new things, they're taking that initiative.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_04: So it it demonstrates, again, a whole nother skill set and approach to it.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that's important, especially when you're going to something new, to show that willingness to learn.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_04: Not just, hey, I'd love to learn new stuff.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_04: Everyone says that, but to be able to demonstrate on some of the things you do, maybe in your outside world, of how you pick up different information.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_04: You know, with cyber folks, we're always talking about who do you follow?
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_04: What do you do?
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_04: Where do you get your updates and information?
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_04: You know, I want to know that they're out there, you know, really understanding the latest that's happening out there on the side.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_04: And they're at home building labs and building test environments and running three different servers.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_04: Like, okay, that's the type of person that really is going to be a standout.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I love that.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_02: We try to like we get a lot of people that come to OT Skatacon, my conference, which we discussed a little bit before we started uh recording, because so you coming from the cybersecurity world, there is a conference that sounds really similar that is OT cybersecurity focused.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, it used to be called HughesekCon because it was like the Houston security, whatever cybersecurity conference.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um now it's OT Zekcon, I think.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_02: And it's very similar to OT Seticon.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but standing for security.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and going to or being a volunteer at events where your work does not require you to do so, um, or maybe even doesn't support you to do so.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: Would you say that in general that's a green flag for employers when you look at somebody?
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like, are they investing in themselves by doing stuff that they don't have to, but gives them you know extra, I guess, networking and knowledge?
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I think position it.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_04: So you have to have some caution on that.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_04: And it's about how you position it to do.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_04: Is it is it like affiliated with the field in the area and direction that you're going in?
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_04: Does it support continued learning in that environment?
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_04: If it does, absolutely.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_04: But if it's a 180 from what you're doing, it will turn into a red flag very, very quickly because suddenly I'm gonna be like, oh my God, you know, why, you know, you're doing all this uh, you know, electrical stuff, and now you just or say mechanical engineering, and now you're just taking a computer programming course.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_04: Um my that's a red flag.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_04: It's not gonna help you be the better mechanical engineer.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_04: And so I'm gonna be worried about do you even want to do this?
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_04: Are you trying, where's your focus?
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_04: Are you gonna be dead?
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_04: So you want to make sure that it does directly, or you can kind of tie it to how it makes you better at your profession, or how your current profession is taking you in the direction you want to go ultimately.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_04: So you have to keep that North Star and show how it ties together.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_04: Um, because then I mean you're gonna be an investment.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_04: If it doesn't tie together, you're a risk.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_02: No, that makes sense.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: Especially if you're being hired for a mechanical engineering role and then it looks like you're kind of I've actually had this problem where I've had people want to people that I know and love that are you're friends of mine that want to apply for a job with my company and they ask me to recommend them or whatever.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I know in my heart of hearts that you really don't want to do this position for very long.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: And yes, you may want to work with me, or yes, you may want to work for my company, but ultimately, like, I don't I don't want to recommend or hire somebody for a position where I know that in your heart of hearts, like you want a different opportunity or you want to move into another type of position, then I think we're doing everybody a disservice by saying that you actually want to do this job, right?
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_02: And and my what I'm talking about is in my particular position, like we've had two different sales openings um in the last two years.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_02: And and I'm like, I just like me, like I'm no longer a a territory salesperson because I didn't want to do that anymore.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_02: And so it would be a disservice to anybody for me to say, like, yes, I'll take that job.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um because I need a paycheck, or it's like a foot in the door.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_02: But at the same time, like if I know that you're gonna want to move into something else as soon as the opportunity presents itself, then like let's be honest with ourselves here.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_04: Um, absolutely.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: And if you do a computer programmer, then like you know, yeah, I guess leave that off your resume until you really are ready to make the option.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_04: Well, and I think you know, it goes to the whole interview process.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_04: I always treat it as a game because you know, uh, the weirdest thing when you go into an interview oftentimes is they just start grilling you with questions and you have no context, right?
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so I structure mine differently.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_04: I thought load them with context because I want to give them all the answers basically, and then let's see how they do.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_04: Can they connect the dots there?
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but often, you know, most people don't do that.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_04: So uh as you as the candidate, I think it's important to try to extract early on as much information as you can on what they're going, where where they're going, what directions to go in, because that may be advantageous than to kind of communicate and be all over the place, or just be, I want to go here and jump around because I may need that.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_04: And so the person I talked to earlier today, what really excited me about his potential, he had done all these disparate things, and I'm thinking, I do have some retirements coming up here.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_04: I have, you know, we're gonna do a low restriction.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_04: I need this skill and this skill.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_04: And wow, I I may be able to use this person in some different ways or have different opportunities I could present it to them for growth, right?
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_04: So now I can keep them longer turn and keep them interested.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, but I do have that, but in other times I won't.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_04: So, you know, you got to be able to understand the more you engage on that information up front, uh, what's the environment like?
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_04: You know, tell me the biggest challenges.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I always try to front load that um with that.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_04: And so I use a trick with the interview.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_04: It's like I front load so much information, they're like, tell me about yourself.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_04: I'm gonna give the whole data dump in about like three minutes, but then I'm gonna do a quick pivot to be like, that's why I'm excited to be here today.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_04: And I was curious about, and I rapid fire two or three questions at them because human nature is when you ask a question, they're gonna answer.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_04: And especially if I just spun their head with a whole bunch of data and I answered a lot of questions I knew they were gonna ask.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_04: So I front-loaded that, gave the answers, asked the question, and now I put them on their heels and now they're starting to answer mine.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_04: And now I turned it from an interview to almost a consulting session.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_04: I started getting more insights into the environment, the challenge that they're having, what they're trying to accomplish.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_04: And then that allows me to then pick my stories or situations and then uh how I want to answer and respond that's gonna be most appropriate.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_04: Um, instead of kind of going in there dark.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_02: That is really cool.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_02: I've always thought of myself, one of the reasons I didn't want to become a people manager is because I was like, oh, I'm terrible at hiring.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_02: Because whenever I've hired people, um, I tend to like everybody.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I do like I look for the potential in everyone, and I kind of like but it hasn't always served me well.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um and so I'm like, I don't really know how.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I realize too, it's like it's just a whole skill set that I've never exercised or learned.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_02: And again, kind of silly to like be like, oh, you're good at this, so now become a manager and I may be good at this, but that doesn't mean I'm good at identifying other people that would also be good at it.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um now I'm thinking about like, okay, as as I grow and become more of a manager, like I've done um more interviews and stuff, but that's honestly like it's also a skill that I could purposefully try to get better at.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_02: I can learn from people like you, I can look up different things to do, talk to the people that are senior to me that have done a lot of of hiring, right?
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um what other red flags can you tell us about anything right off the bat that you can think of that like people should be aware of?
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_02: Either either if they're the ones doing the hiring, um, or just yeah, if you're presenting yourself for a job, like how can you avoid uh maybe you shouldn't avoid like honestly, like I feel like interviews when done right, I think with when when the intention is right on both sides, they should be an interview on both sides.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_02: Like, don't take a job.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_04: It should be 100%.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_04: When you know, red flags for either side is when you're not getting the answers.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_04: I always call you know the whole process is like a giant dating game, right?
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_04: And if you go into a relationship open and honest, even if it ends, you can end on a good note.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_04: You know, we can we can separate amicably when you go into it with honesty.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_04: When you go into it with a little mis, you know, miss uh cons you know, misleading and uh you know a little bit of lack of honesty, usually the breakup is bad at that point.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_04: Someone hates someone, right?
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_04: Because they feel like they were, you know, misled.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_04: And so it's really important on both sides to go into it with really, yes, I need the technical skills, but I also need that cultural fit.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I wish I and I try to shoot for when I coach candidates on and managers is call it the employment tripod.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_04: There's three legs to a tripod.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_04: They all have to be equal to be stable.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_04: They're not equal, it's gonna fall over and wobble.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_04: And to me, that is three things.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_04: Number one, first leg is you gotta like what you do.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_04: Can I get up every day and do this work?
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_04: You know, do I enjoy the function or whatever I'm doing?
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_04: That is key.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_04: Um, number two, do I like where I do it?
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_04: And that's a lot.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_04: That's your company, that's your culture, that's your team.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_04: That's a sandbox.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_04: Do I want to play in the sandbox with you people all day?
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_04: And then third is compensation.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_04: It doesn't have to be the highest.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, we all want the most money, but am I paid fairly for my contribution?
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_04: When you can equalize those three things out, you have a winner.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_04: Those are the times in, you know, I can't say I found it all the time in my career, but I've had two or three instances that it was like that perfect storm that I would get calls from recruiters and headhunters, like, I got an opportunity.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_04: I'd be like, you can't pay me enough to leave.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_04: Hell no, I'm not gonna consider it.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_04: Don't even want to have a conversation because I love what I'm doing so much.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_04: That's ideally, you know, what you want to try to do.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_04: If you can match those three things up, you're stable.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_04: Uh two, you lose one of them, it's wobbly, and then when a recruiter calls, they're gone.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_04: That's how you lose people.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_04: So I think you as a candidate have to understand what your three pillars are and what do those mean to you.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_04: And, you know, and as a manager, it's your job to really uh look at that too and try to find that balance.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_04: Um, because you have to, you've got to have that right balance on a team and team dynamics.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_04: There's a lot behind it.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_04: But you know, a healthy functioning team is gonna work together, communicate well.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_04: You can't have everyone with the same profile and background.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_04: It's just not gonna work.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_04: You're not gonna get diversity of thoughts, you're not gonna get change.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_04: I can't have a bunch of type A personality, you're gonna be fighting each other all day, right?
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_04: Naturally, groups form and people play different roles.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_04: And I think it's important as a manager, you understand the dynamics of your group.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_04: And that's kind of a subset of the decision, too.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_04: Who's gonna who's gonna fit into that group well?
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so they bounce stuff off each other and they really perform well.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_02: That's a really good point.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like I wrote I wrote an article about diversity like 10 years, 10, 20, I don't know, long time, long enough time ago that I don't remember exactly how long it was.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_02: But I heard a really cool talk at like one of the Google Tech talks about like one of the technical reasons why diversity is so important on teams for innovations, for instance.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because like it's been scientifically proven that when you have a bunch of people that have similar backgrounds or similar ways of thinking, like you end up kind of with a lot of very similar solutions to say that.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you do.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_02: You know, can you tell us a little bit of from your standpoint, like how important it is to put together teams that do have some of that diversity, even though it can sometimes mean communication challenges or like there's a little bit more, maybe up front it seems like harder or more work to have diverse teams because not everybody thinks the same way.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, no, and it absolutely can be harder, uh, I think sometimes for different environments to do it.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_04: But I think it is critically important to do it and be intentional about it, you know.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and I always try to, you know, to make sure I do that, you know, when I bring in a team, you gotta have some balance of that.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_04: And I think it's really focusing on, you know, as you're interviewing people, focusing on, you know, specific sectors.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_04: So I think one of the things is because people, you know, are afraid of what they don't know in the unknown and will often reject it.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_04: So what I try to do is when I have others involved into an interview, like even team members and peers uh who may be vocal, is I don't want them to go in and just interview them, the person give me feedback.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_04: Because oftentimes, like, I want you to meet with them with no direction.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_04: And it's a terrible candidate experience because they're basically repeating the same 30-minute story over and over and over to every new person.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_04: And so all the employer is getting is like an inch deep and not much there.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_04: So what I try to do is steer to say, Hey, you're gonna focus on this area.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_04: I want you to dig deep here.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_04: You dig deep here, you dig deep here.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_04: So it does help overcome some of those objections subtly because what it is is I may override their opinion.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_04: They might say, okay, they're really good here.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_04: I didn't like this, I and have you focus on that.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_04: And so if I then override and I hire someone who they rejected, they're gonna get buy-in more because it's like, I appreciate and respect what you did, but here's where I think we can overcome it in here.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_04: But they don't have the full picture.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_04: Only the manager has kind of that full picture.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that is helpful because if you set that stage better, they're not coming into an environment where it might be, you know, feel kind of hostile or objective uh to it's like I didn't I didn't want this person on.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_04: It's you know, you can mitigate some of that, um, you know, I think through that interview process.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_04: But often it's just it's definitely intentional uh for that.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_04: Um I always wanted to, you know, everyone approaches stuff differently.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so you know, one of the things I had done here too is I I did this, Scott, about a year ago, and I forget what the numbers were, but I was just curious because naturally, you know, I do all my interviews, initial interviews, uh, even though we have video, I don't do video.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_04: I do everything over the phone and only through the air because I've been doing it a long time.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_04: You know, I can hear the subtleties much better, plus the video distracts me.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_04: And I talk with my hands and move around.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_04: So I so that way you kind of have a blindness almost going into it uh from a lot of sectors on it, where I don't see a person until they walk in the first time and I've already had conversations.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_04: To me, that's a helpful practice as well.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_04: So you don't have that kind of initial bias there.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, that's I once yeah, and then I took a pulse and I was like, wow, because we added a whole lot of females.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_04: This is you're in manufacturing, it's a male-dominated area so much here.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_04: And it was, you know, we had a it's very, very male, very white male when I joined.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_04: And also I pulsed it like 12, 18 months later.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, okay, we've added, you know, a great percentage.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_04: We had a lot more females, a lot more minorities.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_04: You know, I introduced a visa program here, which we had never done before.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_04: And so often, you know, it's an untapped market, especially for smaller businesses, because they don't understand it.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_04: They're scared of the unknown.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_04: So, like, oh my God, I can't do a sponsorship.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_04: This is terrible.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_04: This is hard.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_04: It's not, you know, uh, I have a law firm I've been dealing with for like almost 15 years at three different companies.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_04: They try they come with me.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so I brought it up.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_04: I was like, hey, have you guys ever done this?
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_04: Like, oh no, that's expensive.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_04: That's this.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, it's not really.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_04: I, you know, I spent a lot of years in technology, so I understood the program very, very well and and got the good relationship.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_04: So once I was able to explain to the business how it's a good investment, uh, you know, and if you do sponsor it, it does tie oftentimes, you know, uh people want to stay longer as well because they're they're staying in the US is tied to that, it can automatically be a great benefit uh to the company, to the people to help drive some of the diversity.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_04: But oftentimes, because of the unknown, they shut that vehicle off.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: Here's a quick message from our sponsor, Inductive Automation.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: Every path, every project, every goal, every solution begins with an it.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: What is it?
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_00: It is your breakthrough moment.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: It is when you build a foundation for innovation.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: It is your best idea that will solve unique challenges and revolutionize a process.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: It is when you integrate new technologies that will transform entire industries.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_00: If you have a vision for where it should end, then we know where it should begin.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: It starts with ignition.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you to Inductive Automation for sponsoring automation, ladies.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_01: Let's go back to the episode.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I actually remember this is some one of the things that we talked about in Wichita because I uh had a friend, uh a girl that I or a woman that I met at IMTS that we ended up trying to help with the visa stuff because she was here uh on OPT, which is like I guess where people go they come to the US for a master's degree or something and they have a certain amount of time in which they're not.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_04: F1 student visa OPT, you get about three years, two and a half years, yeah.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_04: With no sponsorship, you can work.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_02: But then at some point you do need somebody to sponsor you.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_02: And it it was one of those things, it's like she would, you know, people would seem to want to hire her, but then the the the hurdle was, oh, we don't know what that is, or we we're not willing to do that.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I think a big part of it is like just yeah, if they've never done it before, I think the assumption is just that it's really hard, it's really expensive, it's complicated, they don't know how to handle it.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um so that's a really good point.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I love to to hear your recommendation that you know what, you just need a a a good law firm.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it doesn't have to be that expensive.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, like you said, there are a lot of benefits to it that really outweigh the the upfront uh effort of having to do that.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_04: And I mean there is some risk, especially that OPT uh F1.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_04: You know, one of the risks is you have to enter into a lottery.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_04: But, you know, again, if you know how it goes, you know when to go.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_04: So if I get someone right out of school immediately, you know, not a year or two after, then I know I'm gonna get two to three chances into the lottery because the lottery enters every March.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_04: So it enters in March, they draw it in like May, and then it goes active in October.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_04: But every March is the lottery.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_04: And they may change the rules, but um, I submitted two people this year into the lottery.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_04: One of them got it, one didn't.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_04: So one, I got the visa, it went in effective October one.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_04: The other one, I'm gonna enter into I have another chance at the lottery this year.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_04: So there is a risk that from an employer standpoint that I could submit him two to three times and not get the lottery, and then we're both stuck because he can't work in the US anymore.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_04: I can't employ anymore.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_04: We, you know, we can't move forward on it.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_04: That is a a real risk.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_04: However, you know, typically how it's done when you have masters, they change it, you get extra, you know, uh kind of spots into it.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_04: Um, you know.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_04: It becomes not as problematic.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_04: And when you do a visa transfer, that's not even an issue.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_04: So you mitigate the risk when you are someone already has it and you're just transferring it.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_04: But that initial process can be very good.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_04: You know, you have them for a couple of years, you don't have to sponsor, but you do risk if they don't get that lottery.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, a lot of pros and cons there.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_02: How did you I guess because yeah, in the technology world, this is a very, very, very common practice.
• 44:27
  unknown: Right.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_02: More so in the general tech world.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_02: I've also spoken to a lawyer that she does a lot of work with uh industrial automation people.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_02: And she said that in particular, like this is a skill set that is very much needed in the US.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it depends on what country you're coming from.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but like for instance, Latin American countries, if you have a demonstrated expertise in industrial automation, it can she was like, we do these visas all day, like they're very easy to get if you can demonstrate that this is your skill set.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because it is such an in-demand profession, and we don't have enough people in the US that are very absolutely.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_04: Especially if you're coming from, like say Mexico or Canada, it's under US MCA on that.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_04: Very, very easy crossing the border, I551 stamp, just employment letters.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_04: There's actually no sponsorship required.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, very cool.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_02: What are um do you have any hiring um or workforce challenges that you know you feel like you pull your hair out over sometimes?
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_04: Um I do, and this is one I I I swear I'm trying to always solve for.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_04: Um, especially if you say when I'm hiring engineers, you know, it's interesting because we're a niche OEM, you know, up here in Baltimore.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and so we do custom liquid filling and packaging machinery that will design, you know, the whole thing and build it.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_04: And so what I find is other competitors in this space, a lot of them are kind of similar to us.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_04: So that, you know, under 200 employees, small, you know, family owner, mom, pop, you know, uh company in their area, and they have workforces similar to here where they're here for decades and forever.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_04: So, you know, but a lot of the job does need to be done on site.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_04: So trying to find people with a skill set, especially from a design standpoint, who can take like a blank page or take a design and build an A to Z all aspects of it.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_04: Because in much larger firms, people focus on a subset, subassembly, you know, and someone's doing a piece of the puzzle.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_04: Here we're kind of doing the whole puzzle.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_04: So it's hard to find people who's got that whole picture.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_04: Um, or, you know, which what do you know well?
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_04: And then I have to get faith that you can learn the other, hopefully in a timely manner.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_04: That's probably one of my biggest challenges is, you know, uh, and it's always a conversation.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and at times it can be different.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_04: But when they say institutional knowledge, I need someone from an industry, it does drive me a little baddie sometimes because there are roles that it's absolutely helpful for.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_04: And I do get it.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_04: If I'm if I need a senior like mechanical engineer, I I'm getting a while in the packs.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_04: I don't have the luxury to have a long ramp up time, so I may need that.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_04: But when they start talking about industry experience for roles that are outside, say like my role or in finance or accounting, or my it's like we're ops.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_04: I call those the insert here roles.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_04: You know, my job is actually the same.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_04: It doesn't matter.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_04: You drop me inside or you drop me, you know.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_04: The difference is is, you know, there's some, but I can still do the same function completely.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_04: It industry is not dependent on to be able to do that.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but that that is a challenge, I find.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_04: Um, the other thing is uh field service, I have to say, finding that right balance, especially when you're in a small group.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_04: And I talked about this earlier.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_04: The biggest challenge we have is our field service guys also build.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_04: So, you know, you're looking for this skill set.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_04: You got people willing to travel, you know, 30% of the time, but then that's the work they love.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_04: Are they willing to do the work here in-house and want to do that and enjoy doing that?
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_04: So that's always the tough, the tough balance of finding those those right skill sets.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_04: Uh and if they don't have it, that drive and passion.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, someone who just wants to learn is gonna take it upon themselves because again, in smaller places, you know, we don't have these big robust training.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_04: A lot of it's on the job, working with others.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_04: You have to, you know, and I think it's important to know the size company you're going to, and because there is some basic expectations that you know happen, if you're in a smaller one, you're gonna have to wear many hats.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_04: You gotta be willing to jump in and to do other things.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_04: Much larger companies, it's gonna be more narrowly focused.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think there's some personality types that lends themselves better to bigger companies versus smaller ones, like people like me.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like I need to be constantly like learning different things and having a big impact.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_02: And so I I think I would I would do have a hard time.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_04: Big companies drive me nuts.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas some people really like they they thrive better in that like very defined expectations.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_02: It's not my job, it's not my department, you know, kind of situation.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I know with Allie also, and you don't know her, but um, she's one of the co-hosts of the show, she's a learned chemical engineer that became a controls engineer, and she can design and build, like design, specify, and build a uh like a control panel for any kind of process uh from start to finish.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_02: And she learned that through a series of different jobs where she did kind of different parts of the job, and she saw the next one and was like, oh, that's my next challenge.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_02: I need to learn how to do this part.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then she became skilled enough to to do the whole process.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then I've had I've talked to people that were looking for similar people to her, and they're like, where can I find these people that know how to do all of this?
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, well, there isn't there isn't really like a formula for where you find these people.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's people that have been smart enough andor crazy enough to go from like one job to the next and adding and learning and building all these skills to where you're gonna get to this, like, oh, I have this whole package now that I have that I've been able to do.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and one of the things that she always says is like if you're early enough in your career, if you can take those jobs where you travel, where you get to learn like on the job, you get to yeah, some of it's like very trial by fire.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_02: So you also have to have a threshold for a little bit of stress, right?
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_02: But if you go out and do those field service things, and then I to me it's like it's the perfect type of job where you don't have to do the same thing all the time, but it is very different depending on kind of personalities, right?
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_02: Would you say so?
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_02: You mentioned the the three pillars of the school, and I love that and pay being one of them.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think we as an industry pay well enough to actually attract the right amount of people to come work for us?
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_02: Is that an industry problem or is it just like individual companies?
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_04: Um I think more well, it's a combination.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_04: So there's two things of it.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_04: So uh a little bit of industry when it comes to you know certain sectors, you know, I came from software, it pays more.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_04: It just does, right?
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_04: Uh on there in certain sectors.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_04: So uh, but the pay is is still, I think, very good and competitive.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_04: But what I found interesting was um we talked about longevity, especially in a lot of manufacturing environments, right?
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_04: You have uh these people been decades.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, what they don't always do well is address compensation and fairness in the market, uh, because you'll find salary compression, right?
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_04: So one of the things I always do is I do internal and external equity.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_04: You know, whenever I hire anyone, I'm pulling rates, I'm making sure I benchmark and I talk to folks, I have pretty good pulse of the market.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_04: But then I also look at internal equity.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_04: What are they walking into the table with, right, compared to others on the team?
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_04: How many total years?
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_04: What skills and stuff they're bringing.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_04: And make sure we have some internal equity there because often what I found is you know, my finance lady, she yells at me all the time, she's like, Bill's blowing the budget, he's engineers making way more than they did before.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_04: You're right, they did.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_04: Because guess what?
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_04: I found some salary compression.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_04: It wasn't purposeful on there, but when you have people here decades and they get their two, three, whatever percent each year, it doesn't necessarily keep up with the outside market.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_04: So suddenly, you know, uh you find you bring someone in and you're paying them more, and it's like this just doesn't feel right, you know, we shouldn't do that.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_04: And it's where they get into trouble.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_04: So uh, you know, trying to make sure you keep up with the market, um, you know, you have you you benchmark it, keep the communication open.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_04: But uh I think they do pay, but it is the company, it's not widespread, I'd say always, but I think there's sometimes factors uh to it where companies are gonna have to just figure it out uh to do that because you can't be competitive uh, you know, if you're not.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_04: And then if you're not competitive, you're not going to attract the people.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_04: So uh, you know, I always tell folks like we're we're a 50-person company, okay?
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_04: We're not, you know, we have Northrop Grumman down the street, we have all the defense contractors, we're sitting here in Baltimore, all these huge companies around.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_04: I'm not them.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_04: I can't pay exactly what they pay.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_04: I can pay well.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_04: And so I always benchmark the 50th percent tile.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_04: But hopefully, what I can offer is those other two legs of the stool that can really equalize that, you know, it's that ability to do interesting and different stuff all the time, to get involved in a lot more uh of that, you know.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_04: So hopefully, and then with the environment and benefits, you know, trying to trying to create that of what it looks like to work here to do that, to make it, you know, again, more stable, more competitive on that.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_04: Because there's sometimes I can't I know I can't compete on pay against those, but I can be fair, I can be, you know, at least in in a competitive range, and I can offer other things that will really hopefully create a good experience.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_02: I toured one of our um distributor facilities, HH Barnum in Michigan, uh way earlier this year.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I was really surprised.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because I've uh you know worked with a number of distributors and they don't always seem to be the most forward modern thinking.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it it it very much depends.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um but this is exactly this is an employee-owned but also kind of p-d-backed company.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I was really surprised to find on their campus like they had a whole wall of pictures of dogs.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_02: So every year they bring in a pet photographer, and everybody can bring their dogs and like have their pet take photo taken.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, they can bring their pets into work and they have like a dog yard outside one of the buildings, and they have an on-site gym, and just like all these amenities that I kind of thought of as like big tech company amenities, and like, oh, we don't do this in our industry, people should never expect this.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I was like, man, and like natural light in the offices, just like modern kitchens and nice things.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, this is like really surprising.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_02: And then I talked to a lot of people that work there and like people just love it and they've been there for a long time.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, Oh, I'm really, really pleasantly surprised to see a company that gets like the value of the peripheral benefits, like the whole pattern, not just the pay.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_02: Because you spend a lot of your time at work and with the people that you work with, and then you know, in those in that environment.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and shoot my mom just had to, she's on her second like medical leave from her job because of having to work in uh in a building with mold.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, that's one of those things is like she would love to be at work, but she's literally allergic to her workplace, which is a hospital, by the way.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like really, really awful.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um but uh I I just I haven't come across like too many companies, I feel like in our space that really get that.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_02: Are there any particular like outside or or not outside, but non-compensation benefits that you feel like are either really trendy right now or just something that you know is is in demand that can kind of offset some of those?
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like if if a company that is listening to this is like, hey, we don't have the ability to pay top dollar in the market.
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but maybe we could make some other things part of our culture that would be attractive to people.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, what are your top things that you think people care about at work that are so sometimes the flexibility?
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_04: So first I think you have to think is um often there's kind of been this whiplash about the work from home, right?
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_04: Uh in our hybrid environments.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_04: It's like we're for it, we're against it, you know, to to do this and that.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_04: I think if you can offer some flexibility on that, you should, right?
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and and give some choice.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_04: It may not be every job can't do it, but if you have roles that can do it and you're capable of it, do it.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_04: Um 100%.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_04: Why?
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_04: You know, you have professionals there, trust them.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, you know, it says more about you as an employer when you don't trust them.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_04: So I think that one thing that we do is uh flexibility on kind of start time.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_04: You know, um we we're a single shift Monday through Friday type of operation here, but we have folks that come in as early as 6 a.m.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_04: So um, but by four o'clock, it's like a ghost town option.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_04: So, you know, I don't come in that early, but anytime from six to say 8:30 is a start time.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_04: Expectation is an eight and a half hour day, eight hours, half hour lunch.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_04: Do you want to take an hour?
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_04: Do nine hours.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_04: But we offer that flexibility and we just say, just let us know, you know, we'll work with you on what do you want your schedule to be?
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_04: Just stick with it with consistency.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_04: Because, you know, obviously we worry if you're here every day at eight, you know, by 8:30 or not, I don't want to be calling you, hey, are you okay?
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_04: Everything all right, right?
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_04: Communication.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but by offering that flexibility, to me it's fantastic.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_04: I have a you know, sixth grader homies involved in you know, karate and baseball, and I love to go to all the practices and stuff.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_04: So I come in at seven, I'm out the door using by four.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_04: I can make it to every one of those things uh to do that.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_04: So, and I think also flexibility of work-life balance on, you know, my kid has something and leave early today, I can make it up another day.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_04: Give and take, it's gotta come from both sides.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, one of the unique things we don't do, but I had a friend uh, her company she did, which I loved, is they did like a wellness allotment.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_04: And they did it on a quarterly basis, right?
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_04: It wasn't a huge amount, but it was like, you know, maybe$100 or$200.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_04: But what they did was kind of loose controls.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_04: It was for health and wellness.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_04: Do something that makes you happy and something that brings you relaxation.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_04: So if you want to do a gym membership, if you want to do something else, they would approve it.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_04: One of the things she did, she loved to cook.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_04: She went out and bought herself a mixer, right?
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_04: And the company expenses it.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_04: But I think be flexible on things like that.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_04: To you know, don't prescribe that I'm gonna give you gym membership on it.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_04: I'll give you, you know, if you can allocate some funds, X amount, but be a little bit loose on how they can use it and to do it and let them create that.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_04: So if it's something to bring them happiness, to bring them joy, to bring relaxation, let them kind of come up with what that is to them.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_04: Uh and I think that could be helpful.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_02: If you want to hire smart, capable people that you want to trust with making decisions, why wouldn't you let them also like trust them to work out how their lives work best with within the constraints that you have?
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_02: When it doesn't cost you.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_02: And and yeah, the start-time thing is like people have different commutes.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_02: Some people are gonna be stuck in traffic for two hours if they leave at a certain time.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_02: And then I would also say I learned this at a conference maybe last year, but they were talking about like how in different stages of people's careers, different things matter.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_02: So when you have young kids, being able to go to your kids' baseball game is super important.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_02: When you when your kids are out of the house and graduated out of college, like maybe yeah, you you want to take a cooking class.
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_02: Like these things change.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_02: People are not a monolith, and no, if you keep manage to keep people long enough, they're different phases of life.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_02: What matters to them will also change.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um that's a really good point.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_02: I wish that we had more time, but we are I know, I know.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_04: I looked at the clock.
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_04: I was like, okay, you have another meeting and now but definitely we got to catch up finally.
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_04: It's fantastic to talk with you.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_02: And thank you for sharing all of these great nuggets with our audience.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I feel like there's just so much more to cover potentially.
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_02: So I feel like now you are our HR friend, Bill.
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so everybody, a director of people operations perspective.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_02: I love that title, actually.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um because human resources just sounds a little funky.
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I gave it to myself when I took over the role.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_04: I changed the title because I was like, yeah, I didn't like that either.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_04: So I was like, I have access to the system and I can go overwrite it and recreate my title.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, here.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_02: Then again, another thing, unless you're at a publicly traded company where the title, like engineer two or principal, like actually matters, and and you know, the the salary band and all that kind of stuff, like then why do you really care what the title is?
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_02: Empower people to do the the their best work, right?
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_02: With whatever title suits the them at the time or the position.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_04: I'm here to support people.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_04: That's what I'm here for.
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_02: So our last question, Bill.
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_02: If people want to connect with you, maybe they want to come work for your company.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_02: If you're in Maryland, you guys should definitely and any of this ring a bell with you today, or you happen to have these unicorn skills as a machine builder, engineer, field technician, any of those things, you should probably be following Philomatic and Bill for that matter.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_02: But do you want to give us um any other places people should be following, connecting with you or your company, or anything you guys have coming up that we should be aware of, or any job openings that you want to highlight?
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I'm gonna say uh I definitely uh we have some openings.
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_04: I'd say check out our website at uh it's www.philomatic.com.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_04: Uh so F-I-L-A-M-A-T-I-C.
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_04: Uh Philomatic.
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_04: Um, you know, LinkedIn absolutely connects me on LinkedIn.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_04: That's probably where I am the most.
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_04: Um, you know, and if you want to share my email add you're happy to be my Philomatic one.
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_04: I am terrible.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_04: I'll tell people you can connect me on LinkedIn.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_04: I'll have the best thing.
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_04: I I'll accept it, but email me absolutely.
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_04: I get I have 13,000 contacts on LinkedIn, so I cannot keep up with my messages ever.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_04: Not even a question.
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_02: And the LinkedIn inbox is funny.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes I see messages from like three years ago.
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, I swear I didn't see this email.
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_04: No, connect to me through there, but then email me directly.
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:02:25
  SPEAKER_02: And it is um, you know, also if you're a candidate uh for anything, always be proactive.
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um I've I've started to realize that I used to be this way.
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like, even in sales, I'd be like, oh, I don't want to bother people, or I'm waiting for them to get back to me.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, no, when people are busy, like just bug the shit out of them until they tell you to leave home.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_04: Um and I'm always open to conversations.
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_02: Unless you're just one of those people that's like, here, here's my resume, give me a job.
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_02: Like, make sure it's a fit, make sure you're bringing some value.
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_02: I I tell this to my audience all the time.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_02: Everyone wants to help you if you want to help yourself and you're willing to demonstrate that.
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_04: You nailed it right there.
• 1:03:01
  SPEAKER_04: Because I will tell you, I end up on obscure calls all the time, and I'll jump on and do and talk to folks simply because they knew how to ask.
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_04: That's it.
• 1:03:10
  SPEAKER_04: Because, you know, they asked correctly, they wanted some help, they wanted some insight.
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_04: You know, I'm definitely willing to give on there, but when they come at it, kind of harsh, forget it, you're not gonna get the time.
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_04: But ask well, use your resources, have those conversations, even proactively, you know, because you never know.
• 1:03:27
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, it's one thing I learned long, long ago is never say never because I've said that for oh, we don't have that, we don't hire that, we don't need that.
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_04: And then like two days later, someone left, and I'm like, oh my god, I need it.
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_04: So uh have the conversation, you never know where it could go.
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_02: Love it.
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_02: So people will be able to find um your email on, I'm sure your website, but also uh we guys we have a profile for every guest on automationladies.io.
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_02: So you can find Bill there, you can find his links where to connect with him.
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_02: And hope you enjoyed this conversation because I did.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much, Bill, and I hope you have a great rest of the video.
• 1:04:01
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you for having me.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_04: You too.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_04: Take care.
• 1:04:04
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for listening to AutomationLadies.
• 1:04:06
  SPEAKER_02: If you like our content and you want to stay in touch, please connect with us on LinkedIn, follow the show page, subscribe to our YouTube channel, and you can send us a message or a copy on our website, automationladies.io.
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_02: We look forward to getting to know you.