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What If Confidence Isn’t the Problem?Why So Many Women Feel Invisible 여성 리더에게 배우는 ‘자신감 장착’ 방법 · Take1.5 Podcast: Stories from the Messy In-between

0:00
Especially being an entrepreneurship, when you're
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first starting out, you don't have a stable income, right?
0:04
It's up and down. It's like a roller coaster.
0:06
If you're so lonely because your friends and family don't
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understand what you're doing and you feel like you're the only
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one forging this path, not realizing there's so many other
0:15
entrepreneurs out there who feel the same way.
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Today my guest is Sheena Yap Chen.
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She is a best selling author and she's passionate about
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empowering Asian American women. But tell me more about what you
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do. Yeah, so I am a keynote speaker,
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Wall Street Journal best selling author on confidence and
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visibility. And for me, that's really
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important. I realized if I wasn't visible,
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I wouldn't be here today. If I didn't go out and show up
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and speak up and write books and be in the media, I wouldn't be
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here today talking to you. You know, especially growing up
0:57
in Toronto, Canada. I moved from the Philippines to
1:00
Toronto in 1989 and all my work really started from there
1:06
because I never saw anybody in the media that looked like
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myself. So it's always a shame of my own
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culture. Wanted to have blonde hair and
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blue eyes, wanted to change my name to sound more Western.
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And it wasn't until my 20s where I really embraced my Asian
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culture. And so that's why I decided to
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start my podcast. The Child's self-confidence,
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Write books, speak on stages because it's so important,
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right? Sometimes it just takes one
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woman out there to show up and speak up for everybody else, and
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it becomes a domino effect. But then I also read a story on
1:40
X about a woman in Afghanistan who has a job, right?
1:45
And currently under the Taliban rule, women aren't allowed to
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have jobs. Women aren't allowed to have an
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education. And so her going to a job is
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actually a life or death situation, right?
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I know that sounds insane, but this is the reality some women
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are facing right now. I know sometimes being in North
2:03
America we don't see things all all over the world, but knowing
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that, knowing that she's risking her life to work a job to
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provide for her family, makes me realize I need to step up as
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well, even if it's scary. Yeah, one voice does make a
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difference. It it really does.
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And I think sometimes as women we feel like our story doesn't
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matter, that there's someone out there who's already doing it,
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but really there's not enough. Especially I live in Toronto,
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which is one of the most multicultural cities in the
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world, right? When I see there's not that much
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diversity shown represented in media that I get frustrated,
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right? And so sometimes I have to
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realize like, it's not going to change if you don't go up there,
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right? If I keep complaining and not
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doing anything about it, I become the hypocrite.
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Yeah, it takes courage to be the only person out there.
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For sure, yeah. My background is in a nonprofit.
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Sometimes that would be the only Asian face in the room, thinking
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I know there are more people out there, where are they?
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Yeah, and, and I totally get that sometimes I'm the only one,
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right. And, you know, Asian culture,
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we're not told. We're not taught to show our
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faces, you know, especially Asian women.
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We're taught to do as you're told, stay in the background,
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never make any noise, never share anything that you're going
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through. Just work hard, put your head
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down and never make any trouble. And unfortunately, that doesn't
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work in the real world. You know, especially in a
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corporate setting, working hard doesn't get you anywhere.
3:36
Yes, you have to work hard, but you have to work smart at the
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same time, right? No one is going to, no one is
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going to notice your hard work. Sometimes you're only seen as a
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hard worker versus being seen as leadership material.
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So we have to learn to work smart and hard at the same time
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so that we can get the, the promotions, the leadership
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positions. And so one thing we're not
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taught in Asian culture is learning to network, right?
4:02
Learning to, you know, just have conversations with your boss or
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your coworkers, get to know one another because those
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relationships do matter, right? Getting to know someone, they
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get to know who you are, what your personalities, what your
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style is, and it helps you create conversations, right and
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create solutions for for your work.
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I know sometimes as women, we're so afraid just to even put our
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hand up because we're afraid that the ideas that we have in
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our head might be a bad idea. And there's no such thing as a
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bad idea. My guy could so relate.
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I've spoken to so many women who've told me that they wanted
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to raise their hand up, they want to share their idea, but
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they were too afraid. And then the person beside them
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said the same exact thing and got praised for it.
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So to anyone listening to this, just put your hand up.
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There's no such thing as a stupid idea.
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Just share it, right? Because you never know what kind
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of outcome will come your way, right?
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I'm a big believer of asking questions, sharing ideas,
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putting yourself out there. And, and it's hard.
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I get it. I still second guess owes what
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I'm putting out. Does it make sense?
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Will people like it? Will they think I'm nuts?
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But I always go back to why I do the things that I do.
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Having a big purpose. It's not just about me.
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It's about all the other, you know, women out there who feel
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like they're too afraid to share their story.
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Yeah. Hey Sheena, I'm curious though,
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what got you here? I know you say you're you moved
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to Toronto from Philippines and how old were you?
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I was 7. 7 As a young child, how was that experience like?
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I'm in America, so maybe a little different.
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I mean, yeah, Toronto is very multicultural, but at the same
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time, you know, that wasn't represented in media.
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So like I mentioned before, I never saw anybody in the media
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that looked like me. The first TV show that I watched
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that was like an all Asian cast was American Girl with Margaret
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Cho. And Oh yeah, movie that I saw
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with an all female Asian cast was the Joy Luck Club.
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And I remember watching that and I was like, Oh my God, like
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there's someone, there's a movie out there that represents me.
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And that was a big deal back then because Joy Luck Club came
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out and then like 25 years later was like Crazy Rich Asians.
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So in between, there wasn't really a lot of movies or movie
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shows that highlighted Asian culture in North America.
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So for me, it was a big deal. And now we're starting to see
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more of it, which I love. It's still a slow process, but
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it's still a lot better than it was 25 years ago.
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So I always felt ashamed of my own culture.
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I didn't want to be Asian. I hated being Asian growing up
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because I wanted to have blonde hair and blue eyes because of
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all I ever saw. All of us.
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So many of us. Yeah.
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So especially girls, yeah, so many of us go through that,
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especially being Asian, we don't think we're pretty enough
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because we don't have the blonde hair and blue eyes.
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You know, we have dark brown hair, small eyes, flat nose.
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And so we feel like that we think that that's not beautiful
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when really it is. It's beautiful, right?
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Everyone is beautiful in their own skin.
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So also trying to assimilate to Western culture while tying into
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your Asian roots, right. That was also a battle, right?
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I remember going back to the Philippines, visiting my
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relatives. And, you know, being in North
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America, we have the freedom to share our opinions.
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Not, not that I'm saying other countries don't have that
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freedom, but you know, we can share an opinion and have a
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conversation, right? We're not going to fight about
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it. But I remember going back home
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and, you know, I just shared my opinion to like my uncles and
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they were like, how dare you speak out of line?
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How could you talk back to us? Like, you know, what, what we
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see in America or, or in North America versus Asia are two
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totally different things. So also learning that was hard,
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you know, and also just being in a conservative Chinese family,
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you know, there's just, there's only one way of doing things.
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You can't do this, you can't do that.
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And so trying to navigate that, trying to afford your own path
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while being tied to a conservative Chinese family was
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like a huge battle. But I, I also understood that I
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needed to do what I needed to do in order to live life to the
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fullest, to have no regrets and not have these repressed
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feelings built up. And then going through like this
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mental health challenge that, you know, most people don't work
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through the traumas, right? Especially in Asian culture,
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traumas not something we talk about, right?
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It's something we hide under the rug or hide in the closet.
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I mean the main reason why I wrote my first book, the Tau of
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self-confidence was because we need to fix our trauma.
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We need to heal from it. We need to be aware that trauma
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happens and also realize that it's not only our trauma but our
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parents trauma grandparents, they say it goes down 4
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generations deep. I think being Asian, it goes way
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deeper, but this is an important topic that we need to talk
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about, we need to address, we need to be made aware of, find
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solutions so we can move forward as our best self.
9:03
Right. What do you think is the most
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common trauma that Asian community families experience?
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I I mean, of course we understand everybody's
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different, every family's different, but there must be
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that common thread in our community that we face.
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Yeah, I think they'll need to be perfect.
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You know, sometimes we see all these picture perfect photos on
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Instagram, Facebook, thinking these, you know, people have the
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perfect life and not realize behind closed doors or so many
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things happening. I think we're we're so good at
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putting up a front. You know, we have to be strong.
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We can't be weak, we can't cry. You can't ask for help.
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You have to do everything yourself.
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And then also the model minority myth doesn't help as well
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because, you know, it's taught that, you know, Asians are
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successful. We don't need any help when
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that's far from the truth. Yes, there's Asians out there
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who are successful, but there's also Asians out there who are
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suffering, who aren't as successful, who need help.
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And so I think this need to be perfect, needs to be like
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abolish needs to be gone because it doesn't help anybody.
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We're trying to attain for something that doesn't, that
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doesn't exist. I, you know, we look at a, a
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photo of a beautiful model and a cover of a magazine and we
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think, Oh my goodness, she's perfect.
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But people don't realize the amount of makeup they put on,
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the hair, the amount of lighting, the heavy editing, you
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know, editing their hips, editing their face.
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We can edit our face in real life, you know, with just
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editing tools. So we have to, we have to learn
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to like differentiate the reality versus like what you see
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in the media. People crave relatability,
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people crave authenticity. People are drawn to people that
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they can relate to. And so This is why we need more
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people out there, especially being an entrepreneurship.
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Like it's not easy, right? Yes, you get to be your own
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boss. Yes, you get to work your own
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hours, but you could be working 24 hours in a day.
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When you're first starting out, you don't have a stable income,
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right? It's up and down.
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It's like a roller coaster. And then sometimes you feel like
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you're so lonely because your friends and family don't
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understand what you're doing. And you feel like you're the
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only one forging this path, not realizing there's so many other
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entrepreneurs out there who feel the same way.
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And I think it's important to talk about this because not a
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lot of people talk about this. Not a lot of people share the
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real transparency of entrepreneurship.
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It's a it's great, don't get me wrong, but at the same time, it
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can also bring you down. And so that's why working on
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your mindset is so important. Surrounding yourself with the
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right people is important. Listening to podcasts like this,
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reading books that can help you have the tools and resources to
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help you pick you back up when times are tough.
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Because life isn't linear. It's a roller coaster.
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It's up and down, it's upside down, it's sideways.
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It can be a hot mess, but it can also be beautiful at the same
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time. I think it's important to have a
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community. You know, it's interesting.
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I mean, I have friends who are Asian Americans still dealing
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with the separation of male and female and what is expected of
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them versus what is expected of the boys in the family.
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Navigating that. I don't know, what would you
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call it, the conflict? How do you navigate that?
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It wasn't easy. It took a it took a lot of
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unlearning and unlearning some of the things that are that our
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culture tells us to do that doesn't really serve us.
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You know, there's certain traditions that we do that we
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never question. It doesn't make sense sometimes.
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And then when you ask your elders, they're like, just do it
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because it's tradition. But sometimes we really have to
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question it. Will it hurt us or will it help
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us? In the my latest book, Bridging
12:52
the Confidence Gap, I share different traditions from
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different cultures that really hurt women.
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Talking about periods is a taboo.
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And it's like you're shunned from society when it's like part
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of a women's anatomy, right? Like you bleed at least once a
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month. Like that's part of what being a
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woman is, right? Why is it such a taboo?
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You know, in Africa, genital mutilation is still very, very
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prevalent, right? You look at Asia, you know,
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there's still child marriages that still happen.
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And we have to question these things, right?
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So we have to learn, first of all, we have to unlearn these
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traditions that that hurt us. And then we have to learn new
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things. So it's not going to be easy.
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It's going to be messy. It's going to be ugly.
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But in order to move forward, we have to unpack the things that
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don't serve us, bring in, bring in new perspectives to help us
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move forward, and then find the tools and resources to help us
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keep moving forward as we go. Because you can't do everything
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on your own. And when you try to do
13:50
everything on your own, you have blind spots.
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And they're blind spots for a reason because you can't see it.
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And that's why having a second and third pair of eyes is
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important. So especially when it comes to
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the role of men and women, I think all cultures, you know,
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men are praised more than women in most cultures.
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And we have to learn to change a narrative.
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And it's not going to be easy, right?
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Especially for women. There's so many labels that's
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been put on us, and we have to learn to push through just in
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spite of that. Sometimes progress looks like
14:24
one step forward, 5 steps back. I think that's a clear
14:27
indication of like the World Economic Forum mentioning when
14:30
gender parity would be achieved. I mean, the pandemic lockdown
14:34
set women back at least four or five generations.
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But it doesn't mean it's over, right?
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It means we have to continue the work and imagine if each and
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every one of us did our part, what we can achieve, right?
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And there's been studies where if we have more women in
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leadership, more women in corporate, more women in, in
14:52
those seats, it it helps everybody.
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It's a win win situation for everybody, right?
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The country, you know, our country will prosper.
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GDP goes up. We have more money for creating
15:03
better infrastructure, creating, you know, better lives for for
15:06
the people. So if we continue to just show
15:11
up, speak up and empower others to do the same, it can be a a
15:17
domino effect for the real change that we want to see.
15:19
So yeah. How do you change the narrative
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though? Well, for instance, in the
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family. Yeah, I think it's important to
15:29
take really small steps, right. I believe it's a small,
15:32
actionable daily steps that yield the big results.
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You know, a lot of people think we need to go from zero to 100
15:39
to change your confidence and that doesn't really help us.
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In fact, it brings our confidence down a lot more.
15:45
So just taking one step at a time, right?
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Like if you wanted to start a business, but you still have a
15:50
job, you can do both, right? Slowly start it.
15:53
And then when you have enough money to replace your, your full
15:57
time income, then you, you go out and, and venture out as a
16:01
full entrepreneur. If you wanted to write a book,
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you know, if, if, if you think writing a whole book is
16:09
daunting, start with one page a day.
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Whatever it is, just start small and build up on it as you go.
16:16
I always tell people, Rome wasn't built in a day, right?
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So you can't expect the same for yourself.
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And for some people, it takes up to 10,000 hours to practice
16:26
their craft. So and especially in Asian
16:29
culture, we love the compare game, right?
16:31
We love to compare a chapter 1 to someones chapter 20.
16:34
And so we have to realize that they've been through it.
16:37
They've been through the heartache, the disappointments,
16:40
the struggles to get to where they are today.
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And so you can't, you can't compare yourself to that person,
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right? You're just starting.
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It's OK. You're going to start messy,
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you're going to make mistakes. It's not going to be perfect.
16:54
It's going to be a roller coaster, but it'll all be worth
16:57
it in the end. I love it.
17:01
Don't compare your chapter 1 to somebody's chapter 20.
17:04
Yeah. I think the biggest conflict
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that Asian American families experience is the comparison
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game and also saying it's OK. That is so hard to say, isn't
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it? Yeah, I think also just learning
17:25
to say no to things that don't start.
17:27
Especially for Asian women, it's important to set boundaries.
17:31
You know, I know as women, we're natural born caretakers.
17:34
So we always want to say yes to appease the other people, but
17:39
it's people pleasing is not good, right?
17:41
We always think we just need, we need to people please to feel
17:45
worthy to feel some a person of value.
17:48
But it's also really important to set those boundaries because
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if we don't set those boundaries, we're going to get
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into situations that we don't want to be in, right?
17:57
And yes, not everybody's going to like it.
17:59
You know, I think that's another thing, right?
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We feel like everybody needs to like us.
18:03
Not everyone's going to like us. No matter what, yeah.
18:06
No matter what, you can't please everybody, and if you do, it's
18:09
exhausting. And so we just need to show up
18:13
as ourself and the right people will come to us.
18:15
Yeah, I did an episode on the boundary setting boundaries.
18:19
Check it out. You know, I love the the word
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unlearned because we have to unlearn so many things, so many
18:28
things, right? What is one thing that you had
18:31
to unlearn? You know, with your upbringing,
18:33
you're ethically Chinese Canadian.
18:36
Yeah, I'm Korean American. So what was one thing that you
18:41
had to unlearn? I think that needs to be
18:43
perfect, right? You know, we've been taught to
18:47
be the perfect daughter, wife, sister, whatever.
18:49
And that's, it's really exhausting.
18:52
That and also how I view failure right in school, failure seen as
18:57
something bad. In the Philippines, I failed
18:59
kindergarten for coloring outside the lines of a photo.
19:02
So that really affected me because.
19:04
You failed kindergarten. I failed.
19:06
I know I failed kindergarten for coloring outside the lines of a
19:10
photo. No way.
19:11
Oh my gosh, yes. OK, they gave me the same photo
19:15
to color again and I just couldn't color within the lines.
19:18
I colored outside the lines. And so because of that, I failed
19:22
kindergarten. I moved to another school, redo
19:25
kindergarten all over again. And I real, I didn't realize
19:29
that that moment also led me to not valuing myself because I
19:33
felt like everything I touch, I felt like an instant failure.
19:37
And so when I did the work that I had to do in order to move
19:40
forward, I realized I did not fail.
19:44
I was just meant to color outside the lines.
19:46
I was always meant to do something unconventional.
19:49
And if I had that in the beginning, I just imagine, like,
19:54
I just imagine how much further I could have been.
19:56
But that's OK. We're all in this.
19:58
We're all in this journey for a reason.
20:00
Things happen for a reason. That's another thing I realized
20:03
that whatever situation with it we're in, it's either a blessing
20:07
or a lesson, right? I had to reframe it the way I
20:11
think, right? To think.
20:13
This had to happen because I'm going to learn something.
20:15
Something will come out of it and it just makes it easier to
20:20
deal with, right? To say OK I get it.
20:22
Yeah, I've got their perspective.
20:24
There's going to be a lesson out of this.
20:26
Something else will happen. And so, yeah, I, I had to do a
20:30
lot of unlearning, of course, a lot of unlearning even like
20:34
making a decision for myself, overcoming fear, the people
20:37
pleasing, the self doubt. Like, you know, being age 1, we
20:41
go through like there's so many things that we're like dealing
20:44
with that we don't talk about, that it's so necessary to talk
20:47
about. And I know it's not only Asian
20:49
women who deal with it, women from other cultures deal with it
20:52
as well, just because we come from different cultures, we have
20:54
different skin tones, we still go through similar things.
20:57
So, yeah, yeah. So many of that, right?
21:01
Yeah, yeah. Speaking up is 1 big one for me
21:05
too. Yeah, I mean, we're not taught
21:08
to speak up, right? Like I mentioned, we're taught
21:10
to stay in the background, never make any noise.
21:12
And so if we speak up, people think we're fighting somebody
21:17
or, you know, it's. Being disrespectful, yeah.
21:20
When really, no, we're just for once speaking up, sharing our
21:23
views, sharing our stories. And it's so important to speak
21:27
up, especially in this day and age.
21:29
You know, now we have the, the, the technology to do it, right?
21:34
Like we have the Internet where we can share our stories
21:37
worldwide. We have AI now that can help us
21:42
even translate what we speak about to other countries and
21:46
empower those people. Scary for some people to embrace
21:50
AI, but I believe it's important to embrace it, especially for
21:53
women because now there's now there's a huge gap between men
21:57
and women utilizing AI. And if we don't utilize it,
22:01
we're going to fall behind again.
22:02
My daughter, she is in her early 30s and she actually said
22:08
something to me a few years ago, actually when she first started
22:11
after college working in finance.
22:14
I was so surprised by her statement which was I am afraid
22:21
to speak up when my supervisor is a man older and has a loud
22:28
voice. I don't know like if I'm
22:31
supposed to speak or not speak. I was completely taken back
22:35
because she's very proactive, outspoken, all American girl.
22:42
Is this something common? Yeah, it's more common than you
22:46
realize. We're afraid to speak up,
22:47
especially if you're being, if you're the only woman in the
22:50
room. It can be, it can be daunting.
22:52
I even me sometimes when I go to events and I'm like the only
22:56
woman, like, and it's all these men.
22:58
It's like, Oh my goodness. Like, you know, this is a little
23:00
bit daunting but, and a little bit uncomfortable.
23:03
But, you know, I, I, I push myself to be in those spaces so
23:07
we can be seen, so we can create that visibility, so we can
23:11
change the narrative. And the fact that you said you
23:14
have a daughter in your early 30s is just like, I'm thinking,
23:18
did you have her when she was like, when you were like young,
23:20
'cause you look very kill. I have a granddaughter too.
23:27
She's. Always one you're like you look,
23:29
you're like the youngest looking grandma so.
23:32
Oh, thank you. So, yeah, a lot of women deal
23:34
with this and not just Asian women, mostly women of color, of
23:38
course, feeling like they can't speak up because they're afraid.
23:42
They're it's daunting. It's it's a new environment.
23:44
They're not used to it. So, so sometimes when it's
23:49
uncomfortable, that's a time where we need to stretch.
23:52
It's. Taking us to a next level.
23:54
So, you know, utilizing it for something good versus something
23:58
bad. You know, even imposter
24:00
syndrome, right? We have all these thoughts in
24:02
our heads. Am I good enough?
24:03
There's someone better out there.
24:04
Why would they choose me? But you take that and you
24:07
realize that this is part of growth.
24:09
You're going to go through these thoughts and it's important to
24:12
take it to the next level. Yeah, I think the biggest
24:16
surprising factor for me was, yes, I experienced it, but my
24:21
daughter who is completely American, wow.
24:25
And talk about the imposter syndrome.
24:27
My goodness, I have been experiencing that every single
24:31
day as I'm doing this. Podcast Hey, when I got
24:35
approached to write a book for Wiley, I had major imposter
24:39
syndrome. You know, they asked me if I
24:41
wanted to write a book about leadership and I'm like, I don't
24:44
even know if I'm the poster child for leadership.
24:47
Like, I don't even know what leadership looks like.
24:50
I don't know if I'm that person. Like I almost said no to not
24:53
writing that book because I just didn't think I was that person.
24:58
And I'm really glad that I had the right support system to
25:01
encourage me to say, no, you need to write that book.
25:04
And I was like, OK, I'll, I'll write it.
25:05
I'll figure it out. You know, I had less than three
25:08
months to write the first book. Yeah.
25:11
Yeah. And then when that came out, you
25:15
know, it hit the Wall Street Journal best selling list.
25:17
And then I got. And then they asked me if I
25:19
wanted to write the second book, which I have now, bridging the
25:21
confidence gap. And so imagine if I didn't and
25:25
if I said no, what would have happened, right?
25:28
And if I said no too, I would be the biggest hypocrite in the
25:31
world. Because here I am talking about
25:33
representation, the need to be in spaces, the need to show up.
25:37
And then I'm not showing up. I mean, what's the point in me
25:40
preaching it if I'm not doing it?
25:42
And it's the action is a lot harder than I can talk about
25:46
confidence all day, but the action is a lot harder, like 10
25:50
times harder. But I have to remind myself why
25:53
I do what I do because I want to show others what is possible.
25:57
I want to show others that we can break barriers, we can make
26:02
history, we can change the course as we keep showing up.
26:07
Being fearless is not about not having fears.
26:10
Being fearless is doing it in spite of it.
26:13
Right. I remember hearing that Bono
26:16
still gets scared every time he performs on stage, but he
26:19
utilizes that fear to give the best performance ever.
26:23
Every time I have to go on stage to speak, whether it's in person
26:26
or virtual, I get so much anxiety.
26:29
Like the anxiety level goes like way up because I'm like, I hope
26:33
people like what I'm talking about.
26:35
I hope that makes sense. I hope I don't make any
26:36
mistakes, but it's also a sign that I just want to give the
26:40
best, best talk ever to help, to help people realize that, you
26:45
know, they can do it. They have the shift in their
26:47
head. They start seeing things from a
26:48
different perspective. So yeah, we all get scared.
26:54
Everybody, myself included. There's still things that I'm
26:57
still working through. Let's talk a little bit about
26:59
your new book. Yeah, yeah.
27:01
Can you share? Yeah.
27:03
So bridging the confidence gap is really about the, the
27:08
disconnect between how capable you are versus how capable you
27:12
believe you are. So that belief, right,
27:16
Especially as women, we don't believe we're capable.
27:20
You know, we think where there's someone better out there you're
27:22
not good at. Like the imposter syndrome comes
27:24
in, you know, if a man and a woman were to apply for the same
27:28
promotion, you know, the man would be about 30 to 50% ready
27:31
and he's just going to go for it, while the woman is 100 and
27:36
10110% ready. But still, something holds her
27:39
back and it's how she sees herself.
27:42
And so it's really important to bridge that so that we can go
27:47
out there, take action and create the changes that we want
27:49
to see. And once, once a woman is
27:52
empowered to do that, like she becomes unstoppable.
27:55
So yes, we talk on topics such as imposter syndrome, how we
27:58
overcome it, the the biases women go through, right?
28:03
All those biases, you know, contribute to how we perceive
28:07
ourselves, how we see ourselves. The importance of self promotion
28:11
because, you know, for women, it's been seen as tacky and not
28:15
ladylike, but I believe self promotion is empowering and
28:19
that's how we build leadership skills.
28:21
And then just the benefits of having more women in leadership,
28:25
whether it's entrepreneurship, corporate government, we need
28:28
more of those women out there to showcase that even more women
28:33
billionaires out there, right? You know, it's, it's slowly
28:37
going up there, but if you compare it to men, we're still
28:41
like a small fraction. So right.
28:45
So, so of course, we still have a lot of work to do.
28:47
It really starts with that belief in ourselves.
28:49
And you know, girls start having self-confidence issues as young
28:53
as six years old, six years old, right?
28:55
While men, they've been practicing confidence all their
28:58
life, like even in dating, right, if a guy went to a club,
29:03
his his main goal is to get one number from a girl, just one
29:07
number. And if he has to go through 100
29:09
nose to get the one number, he's willing to do it.
29:13
If we did that, Oh my gosh, we would be a hot mess, right?
29:15
The first rejection, we'd be crying, eating ice cream and
29:19
then thinking we're the worst person in the world.
29:22
And so it's important to embrace rejection, to embrace failure,
29:26
to embrace all these things. And then this book is kind of
29:29
like a guide to help you kind of see things from a just different
29:33
perspective. What happens when we don't, when
29:35
we have that disconnect and how we can move?
29:37
Forward. Where do you start?
29:40
I mean, you just start where you you start, right?
29:43
And we're all different. We're all going to start our
29:44
journey differently, some early, some late.
29:47
But I think it's also important to encourage girls to be
29:50
confident. I wish they taught that in
29:52
school. Not that math and science is
29:54
important, but confidence and self love, that's just as
29:57
important and is so needed in the real world.
30:00
You know, we want to equip the younger generation with the
30:02
actual skills to be successful. It's important to have the
30:08
skills to succeed. Resilience, confidence, learning
30:12
to push through our fears, self love, gratitude, persistence,
30:17
right? Those are much needed skills in
30:19
the real world. And even now, there's been a
30:21
report by like the World Economic Forum that soft skills
30:25
is needed now more than ever in 2025 and beyond, with the rise
30:29
of AI, there's going to be a lot of things that we can kind of
30:32
kind of utilize AI to do, right? The technical stuff, you know,
30:35
we don't need to do that. We don't need to figure out how
30:38
to code, how to create an app. We have AI that gives us the
30:43
power to do that. So now we have to focus on those
30:45
skills, confidence, leadership, emotional intelligence,
30:48
resilience. And I think it's important to
30:51
start that at a very young age so that people can so that the
30:56
younger generation can, can thrive, right?
30:59
They need to see failure is not bad.
31:01
Failure is part of the process. Rejection is part of the
31:04
process. Confidence comes with everything
31:08
we do. And so practicing that at a
31:10
young age. We need human skills.
31:14
Yes. Let me ask you this, what is
31:20
confidence #1 How do you define confidence?
31:24
And what is the difference between confidence,
31:27
self-confidence and self esteem? Yeah.
31:31
I mean, I think I always get that.
31:33
I mean, self-confidence is really knowing that you're
31:36
capable. It's just that knowing that,
31:38
knowing the inner, knowing that you, you're capable to get it
31:40
done, even if you don't know how or what, even if you don't have
31:46
a pathway to do that, you just know you're capable, right?
31:51
I've seen. People figure it started.
31:53
With nothing and create an empire, right?
31:55
Because they knew what they were capable of.
31:58
When it comes to self esteem, it's kind of like valuing
32:03
yourself right? How you see yourself, if you
32:05
don't see yourself as someone worthy, you're not going to go
32:07
out there and do it. And so that's why it's
32:10
important. I know it sounds cheesy to
32:12
believe in yourself, but that self believe can go a long way
32:15
if you're not going to take action if you don't think you're
32:17
the person to do it. What is 1 chapter that you
32:21
recommended everybody reads in your book?
32:24
Self promotion. I think we need to change the
32:26
way we see self promotion, especially for women.
32:30
I've spoken to a lot of women who hate to promote themselves,
32:33
who hate to put themselves out there.
32:35
I get it. I don't like to promote myself
32:37
either like. Especially for Asian women,
32:40
right? I'd rather hide and just watch
32:42
Korean dramas all day on Netflix.
32:43
But I understand this is not just about me, it's for every
32:46
other woman out there. I mean I've spoken to like 8
32:50
figure CEOs who back then didn't even tell people they were the
32:53
CEO of their own. Can you believe that?
32:57
And so This is why for me, self promotion is so important,
33:00
right? You want to be visible.
33:02
You want to put yourself out there.
33:03
Yeah, you got to promote yourself.
33:05
You have a business, you have to promote yourself.
33:07
It has to start with yourself. And, and there's different ways
33:10
that I share that you can promote yourself and still feel
33:13
good and really like put yourself out there.
33:16
So, so that I think is the, the chapter that most people should
33:22
read because it's important. You know, this is not, it's not
33:25
tacky, it's a leader. It's, it teaches you how to be a
33:28
leader. It teaches you how to be in in
33:31
the forefront, to advocate for yourself, to break barriers,
33:34
change history. I mean, let's look at the Barbie
33:37
movie, right? Summer of 2023.
33:40
You can go out anywhere without seeing the color pink.
33:43
They had so many collaborations, you know, Xbox theme, Barbie,
33:49
Barbie theme, Xbox, Airbnb's, luggage, you name it.
33:53
And because they had excessive like marketing, like really like
33:57
you just saw them everywhere. That led to the first billion
34:01
dollar movie that was solely directed by a woman.
34:05
And that is huge because for so long Hollywood kept thinking
34:09
that women aren't bankable. Yet here's a movie about a doll
34:13
that made over a billion dollars.
34:14
So that's why for me, self promotion is so important.
34:19
You know, that's really interesting because for, I guess
34:23
it's for every woman, but especially for Asian women, we
34:29
going back to how we were brought up, we are taught to not
34:32
to speak up, be quiet, you know, don't talk back.
34:37
So for us, that's such a huge issue.
34:41
I think for men too, because we're taught to be humble, be
34:44
humble. Yeah, right.
34:46
So it's, it does take a lot of unlearning and relearning new
34:50
things and seeing things from a different perspective,
34:53
especially in our community. We want to be seen, but we're
34:56
afraid to put ourselves out there.
34:57
Like don't be afraid to put yourself out there, right.
34:59
You look at like BTS, like, like look at, look at how much
35:04
visibility has helped them, right.
35:06
One of the probably the biggest. I think it's safe to say they're
35:10
the biggest band in the world when it comes to visibility and
35:13
impact. Like they literally have fans
35:16
from all over the world. Yeah, topping charts in
35:18
countries you never thought would ever, like you never
35:22
thought would ever happen. Like, you know, Chile and like
35:25
Kenya. And I'm like thinking what is
35:27
going on? They got like, armies all over
35:29
the world, and they don't. You know, when they first
35:32
started, they couldn't even speak English properly, right?
35:35
But if they weren't visible, no one would know who they are,
35:39
right? Black, pink, same thing, you
35:41
know, because they were so visible, you know, they break
35:44
records, sold out concerts, their videos rack up millions
35:49
and millions of views. And This is why it's important
35:52
to show up, to speak up, to be visible, to put ourselves out
35:55
there, because it changes the way we're seeing how we're, it
36:00
changes the way that you know, it.
36:01
It it it takes away the negative stereotypes that we still go
36:06
through today. Give me one tip.
36:08
If I were I was in the office as an Asian American woman, How can
36:13
I promote myself without being tacky?
36:16
I mean it or. Maybe I need to be, I don't
36:18
know. I think it's important to do
36:19
your research, right, You know, also give people a reason why
36:24
you are that person, right? Maybe you found something in
36:27
your company that maybe help cut costs or increase revenue or ask
36:33
your Co workers to kind of vouch for you, right.
36:36
I remember when I had, I remember when I had my first,
36:39
when I had a my not my first when I had a salary review.
36:43
My my boss was like, OK, you're going to, you're going to get
36:47
you're, you're in your salary is going to go from 50 to 54,000.
36:51
And I was like asking my boss, can I, can you actually add one
36:55
more thousand to that, You know? And the reason I told him was
36:58
because in Chinese culture, anything that ends in a #4 is a
37:03
bad omen. So he laughed at it.
37:06
He thought it sounded ridiculous.
37:08
But at the same time, he also gave me the raise, right?
37:11
Because for me, that was a valid reason.
37:15
And so some, sometimes, you know, sometimes it's important
37:18
to do your your research so, you know, if you really want that
37:23
promotion or to be seen, give them a reason to right, You
37:28
know, do your research, like I mentioned, figure out how you
37:32
can make the company better or things like that.
37:34
So, yeah, you have to be an advocate for yourself.
37:40
And yet sometimes you got to be shameless.
37:41
So. So yeah.
37:45
Thick face. That's what Koreans say.
37:46
You gotta have a thick face. You know, speaking a lot
37:50
reviews. I was asking for a promotion and
37:53
good doing my reviews and my boss at the time told me
37:56
something very, very valuable. She said keep log of all the
38:00
accomplishments and the inputs that I put into my job and like
38:05
make a case for myself instead of just saying, oh, I think I
38:08
need the I deserve the promotion.
38:11
I have to give bring the reason why and that really stuck with
38:14
me throughout all these years because we work very hard, but
38:20
we have to work smarter, not harder, right?
38:24
So that's one lesson that I learned as a child growing up in
38:28
Toronto in the within the very traditional Chinese family.
38:34
I think you and I could relate many, many things.
38:38
What was that like? I mean, yes, we, I guess we had
38:42
a mix of both, right? I was also taught to, you know,
38:45
success was working a job, a nine to five job and retire when
38:49
you're 60. And there's nothing wrong with
38:51
that. But I knew it wasn't for me.
38:53
I knew I was meant to do something more.
38:54
So of course, when I decided to quit my job and forge my own
38:58
path, my parents was not about it.
39:01
You know, they were like, why would you leave something
39:03
successful? You know, why would you leave
39:04
something stable? And that's what we've been
39:06
taught to do, right? Have stability, have something
39:09
recurring and and you know, it's sometimes it's good and
39:15
sometimes it's bad because it doesn't teach us what happens
39:18
when things blow up, right? Like the pandemic was a clear
39:23
invitation that anything can happen.
39:26
Like literally anything can happen.
39:28
Like you could be going to work one day and then the next day
39:31
the whole world closed down. And so we also need to prepare
39:35
ourselves for things like that to happen, right?
39:37
When, when things just happen in an instant, how do we pivot
39:40
ourselves? How do we figure things out as
39:42
we go? Embracing uncertainty is really
39:45
important, right? Because uncertainty can be a
39:48
really great thing. We've been taught that
39:50
uncertainty is bad, but uncertainty can be great.
39:53
It can. It can open so many doors for us
39:56
when we see it from a different perspective.
39:58
Yeah, that's right. That's so critical to embrace
40:00
the uncertainty that is such a. Huge fearful statement though I
40:06
think our parents generation, they were all about the survival
40:12
in the new country and building up their immigrant lives.
40:16
So uncertainty some out-of-the-box is so scary for
40:21
them. So us and learning is such a
40:25
huge challenge I believe. For sure.
40:29
So last question, what is one thing that you learned about
40:33
yourself through recording this podcast?
40:37
I think for me it's just learning that no matter what
40:40
happens, even if we're going through something, we will be
40:44
all right because we have the confidence to do it.
40:47
We are capable. And there's days where I'm like,
40:49
oh, I don't know if this is the right path or I don't know if
40:52
this is something I can sustain. And then I have to like kind of
40:55
like slap myself and realize you can do this, you'll be fine.
40:59
You've been through worse. So learning to reassure myself
41:02
was is something I've never done before back in the day.
41:05
And so I just have to tell myself, you know, you've been
41:07
through so much. You can, you can do it.
41:10
You can figure this out. And so.
41:12
Is that what you tell yourself when you are going through
41:14
stuff? Oh yeah, all the time, yeah.
41:17
You can do this, yeah. What do you tell yourself right
41:21
before you go on the stage when the right before the mic turns
41:24
on? More just like it's now or
41:28
never, let's do it. Let's.
41:30
Go. Yeah, pretty much.
41:33
So excited that I got to meet you and talk to you.
41:36
Save your blossom being on the podcast.
41:39
Thank you. Bye, bye for the next season.
41:43
Thank you.