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SMNTY Classics: Fictional Women Around the World - Sally · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: I'm welcome to stuff I'll Never Told You, a productive
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: I heeart for you, and yes, it is just me
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: today bringing back a classic. As we are rapidly approaching Halloween,
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: I'm still behind. I have so many horror movies to watch,
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: including this one. So today we're bringing back an episode
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: about the character Sally from Nightmare before Christmas, and I'm
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: really excited to watch it. I always try to do
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: that one closer to Halloween because it kind of gets
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: me into the this is the end of Halloween and
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: now we're approaching all of these other holidays at the
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: end of the year. But as always, listeners, we would
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: love to hear from you about any movie that are
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: classics for you, traditions for you, whatever costumes you might
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: be dressing up in, or pumpkins that you've carved, and
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: just you know, how are you doing. We would love
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: to hear from you, but please enjoy this classic episode. Hey,
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stefan Never
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: Told You production of iHeartRadio. And welcome to another sub
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: sub sub sub segment fictional women around the World.
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: How do ween?
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: In addition who, Yes, today we are talking about Sally
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: the ragdoll from the nineteen ninety three film Another Anniversary,
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: which we keep running into, hey, which is the stop
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: motion animated film The Nightmare Before Christmas First Voice by
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: Catherine O'Hara. I just watched this movie the other day
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: when I.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: Was a kid.
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: It scared me so bad. I don't think I watched
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: it again until after.
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: The first time I ever watched it, I think was
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: last year. Oh really, because I don't care for animations.
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: I don't care for Tim was his face, Tim Burton,
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: I said it.
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: So I've never watched any of his outside of like
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: the old school old school, so definitely watched Beetlejuice and
• 2:29
  Speaker 3: definitely watched Edward Scissors Hands. I think that's it though, Yeah,
• 2:37
  Speaker 3: although he does have some surprising movies that I.
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: Didn't realize was his.
• 2:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, so maybe I have and I didn't realize it.
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: So like, I'm not a big Johnny Depp fan, so
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: m hmm, definitely not gonna watch that. But I finally
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: watched this last year, which, by the way, I just
• 2:53
  Speaker 3: saw recent TikTok saying that the children are named after
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: their deaths.
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that made me really sad. It's a dark film
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. I mean when I was
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: a kid, I was like, oh.
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: My god, yeah, I was like, oh, well, okay, okay,
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: uh huh.
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: Well, I watched it the other day and I was
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: just thinking about this because I was like, I see
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: this character come up so many times, definitely in like
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: goth spaces, when I was going to hot topic in
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: high school.
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: Sally. I have some pajamas actually that I got from
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: Hot Topic.
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: Yes, and this film and this character did really resonate
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: with a lot of people. There has been a lot
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: of debate and disagreement about whether her character is a
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: good or bad role model.
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: We'll talk about that at the end.
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: As side of the film, she has been featured in comics, books,
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: and video games, including the Kingdom Heart series, which I loved.
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: Sally's song, the song she sings in it that it
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: is called Sally's Song, has been covered at numerous times,
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: including by Evanescence frontwoman Amy Lee, which I forgot until
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: I was researching this. There's also a line about it
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: in the Blink one eighty two songs I Miss You,
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: which I was very.
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: Good at on my karaoke game that I had on PlayStation.
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: Halsey will alternate with Catherine O'Hara as Sally in an
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: upcoming live production of The Nightmare for Christmas at the
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: Hollywood bol Apparently they've been doing this for many years.
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: Any listeners have been let us know Billie Eilish saying
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: their role a couple of years ago.
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: The costume was.
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: Allegedly inspired by Selena Kyle Catwoman from Batman Returns, which
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: is another holiday movie that we did. You can see
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: our episode on it. But yeah, let's talk about this character.
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: When we first meet Sally, who is a patchwork rag
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: doll made of found fabrics, Her dresses made of found fabrics,
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: and she is stuffed with dead leaves, living in Halloween
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: Town in the film, she longs for independence. Her creator,
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: controlling mad scientists, doctor Finkelstein, definitely a reference to Doctor Frankenstein,
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: keeps her locked up in his tower, though she has
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: tried to escape several times. After the Halloween party, she
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: manages to get away from him by undoing the threat
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: on her arm, and she dismembers her arm. She does
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: this a lot, but due to her nature, she is
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: able to put herself back together. She secretly follows Pumpkin
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: King Jack skelling ten and her crush up to the
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: moonlit Spiral Hill and hears him sing about how he
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: isn't happy with Halloween anymore. He's bored, basically. Sally returns
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: to the doctor for her arm and wants it's reattached.
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: She tricks and poisons the doctors so she can go
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: to the town meeting that Jack is called, where he
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: gushes about his experiences in Christmas Town. A little unsettled,
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: Sally heads back to the tower, where the scientist locks
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: her up, but Sally escapes by jumping out a window
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: with the basket of food and drink, and in doing
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: so scatters her body parts in the fall, but she
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: easily reattaches them. She gives the basket to Jack, but
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: flees out of shyness. While plucking the pedals Forget Me Not,
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: she sees a vision of a Christmas tree bursting into flames.
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: She goes to warn Jack, but he dismisses her concerns.
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: Desperate to put an end to Jack's plan to take
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: up a Christmas on Christmas Eve, Sally whips up a
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: batch of fog making potion so that she will be
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: unable to take off in his sleigh.
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: However, Jack's dog Zero foils.
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: Her plan when he illuminates his nose red nose and
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: lights the way. Once Jack is gone, Sally overhears how
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: terrible his Christmas is being received, like the military is
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: talking about shooting him out of the sky, and decides
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: to rescue Santa Claus, who's being held prisoner by town
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: villain Oogie Boogie. Sally formulates a plan which involves distracting
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: a gee with a flash of her unbeknownst to him,
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: dismembered sexy leg as. She almost succeeds in fringing Santa,
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: but has captured herself. Jack, realizing what he's done, returns
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: to Hallween Town and fights Ugie Freese, Sali, and Santa Claus,
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: just in time for him Santa Claus to save Christmas,
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: but not before Santa issues a stern warning that she
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: had listen to Sally because she's the only one with any.
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: Sense around here.
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: Jack is on the verge of revealing his feelings for Sally,
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: but they are interrupted because they have to have that
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: scene in every movie. But eventually they both make their
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: way to the Spiral Hill and reveal their feelings for
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: each other, hugging and kissing or is it because We're
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: not gonna go in depth on this because I haven't
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: read these things. But in the comics and books they
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: get married and maybe have kids, like four kids.
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: I know this is a comic.
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, comics and book. I think I was after the fact,
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: but yeah, she becomes the Pumpkin Queen, and she was
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: the one, the only one who never gets fooled by Oki,
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: but gets kidnapped a lot.
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: She rescues Zero. I'm not sure, listeners, let us know
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: it came out.
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: The book The Pumpkin Queen came out, I think last year.
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: This is pretty recent, but there is some stuff I
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: wanted to talk about with this character because I have
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: been watching.
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: I'm behind on my Halloween.
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: Movies because I've been so busy, but that means I've
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: been like watching when I have the chance a ton
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: of them at once, and I think that overload of
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: Halloween slash horror movies brought.
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: Me back to that point.
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: Lauren and I did a whole episode on it before
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: you came on as host, Samantha, why didn't you believe her?
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: It shows up in like every horror movie. I swear
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: to God, there is a woman who is like, this
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: is bad, we shouldn't do this, and they're all like, brah,
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: it's under control.
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: I know what I'm doing. And it was very present
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: in this movie.
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: And it's interesting because this is her like crush her,
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: her love, but she's also not.
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: Really chill was going on with this plan. She just
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: she tries to fail it a lot.
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: We're gonna talk about that more in a suckut. Another
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: thing I found with the whole article about recognizing abuse,
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: and it was using this movie as an example, and
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: it was saying, like, you know, the doctor's controlling behavior
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: is verbal abuse. Oh yeah, it's very disturbing, like ownership
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: and entitlement. So here are some quotes from him. You
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: want me to starve an old man like me who
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: hardly has strength as it is me to whom you
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: own your very life, like very much manipulative, like say
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: I will die without you.
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: You have to stay. Here's another one. You're mine, you know,
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: I made you with my own hands. And then later when.
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: He's like dissatisfied with Sally, he makes a new version
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: of Sally that he says will be an improvement.
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: He puts like half his brain in her, I think,
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: And then.
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: There's like examples of physical abuse like locking her up,
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: striving her down, and holding things important to her so
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: she has to come back, like her arm.
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: There's no support in the town.
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: Like he's definitely not meant to be seen in a
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: good light. But it's very disturbing for sure, And that
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: brings us to the next point that she is fined
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: a lot through her relationships to men in her life.
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: She is like a damsel in distress. I guess because
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: she was the smart one. She was the one that
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: was like, this is bad, this is wrong. I've got
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: a need to fix it. I'll do it myself, but
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: still ultimately did need Jack to rescue her. That whole
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: idea of meant to be, which I believe is what
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: my pajamas say. They became like a really romantic couple,
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: like especially for goth emo kids, Like it was like,
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: oh Jack and Sally.
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: Which is why I said that.
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: Are and I have actually some different points about that,
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: some different quotes of people who disagree. So here's one
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: from Romper. The whole thing plays out like a narcissist wedge,
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: the story of a man who, in spite of a
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: great folly, gets to retain his status as compelling and
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: beloved genius, winding up with the quiet, mousey girl who
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: underplays her own ingenuity to worship him. Looking at it
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: from Sally's point of view, it's basically vicarious wish fulfillment
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: for every quiet girl who ever loved the lead singer
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: in a band. I will say I found this article
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: had like a lot of interesting points, but a lot
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: of them.
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: Sometimes you read.
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: An article that's like, let's talk about sexism and a thing,
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: and it feels like the articles kind of being sexist,
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: and this had a few examples of that. I'm not
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: saying that was the case. There were just a few
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: where I was like, wait a minute.
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: Wait.
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: They also tried to make the point that Sally's a stalker,
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: which I think is a fair point, but also I
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: don't know, she's just kind of like wandering around.
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah, she discovered that he's doing something bad.
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: It's like, oh, maybe I need to keep an eye
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: on this. Yeah.
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And she was very shy and like not don't
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: get be wrong if I don't know if the genders
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: had been reversed, but to me it felt less stockream
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: more like she's trying to build up the courage, and
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: then Jack is singing this song and she's like, oh no,
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: that's a bad IDEA.
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: Wait a minute, maybe I need to stop this.
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: Yes, and here's a quote from Marvelous Geeks Media. Unlike
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: everyone else, she refrains from showering Jack with constant praise
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: and adulation. Being in love doesn't meet ignoring the object
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: of your affections. Faults are staying quiet when they're about
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: to make a huge mistake. Sally is the only one
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: who tries to dissuade Jack from taking over for Christmas,
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: imploring that he give up on his plan to no avail.
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: And in this they point out some quotes from Sally's
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: song A Lot of People Did That, where she's kind
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: of like, I wish I could just go.
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: Along with him, but I can't. It's wrong, doesn't work
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: for me.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: Jack Skellington is that guy who did a single study
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: abroad semester in Christmas down and thinks he knows everything,
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: the one who assumes that because he's really really good
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: at one thing, he must be equally good at anything
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: else he wants to do. Everyone else is so for
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: up Jack's bony ass that they're either enamored with everything
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: he says and does or too intimidated to say otherwise. Still,
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: it's Sally, the person who actually loves him the most,
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: who has enough respect for him and her own intelligence
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: to tell him the truth. That was a very funny
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: a lot of funny quotes from that article, which is
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: the Marvelous Geeks one. Here's a quote from Bussel Sally
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: even gets her own song, but the subtext that said
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: song is I don't see any of this working out,
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: including my feelings for that ridiculous man over there. That
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: very much goes against the classic dough white hope of
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: snow White or Cindrella. They were making the point that
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: she's technically a Disney princess because Disney helps the nightmare
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: before Christmas?
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: Is she is she consider that?
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean just technically a lot of people like
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: to fight about it, but she's in the Disney realm
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: of what would.
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: Be leading ladies.
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: Mm hmmm, Okay, often princess.
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: Not that Sally is void of positivity or doe eyes,
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: but she's very heavily married to realism and not waiting
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: for her prince or king to save the day. I
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: mean that guy is actually causing all this trouble place.
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: So yeah, she has a crush, but she doesn't passively
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: stand by and dwell on it. Instead, she pushes herself
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: to act for a better cause, making a valiant effort
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: to rescue Santa cause. And then I thought this was
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: really interesting. This is a quote I got from screenwriter
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: of the movie, Caroline Thompson, but I got it via
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: Din of Geek. If she were writing the character now,
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: Thompson said to al Horner, she would give Sally even
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: more of her own self.
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: Was it ending?
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: In particular? She feels she let the character down somewhat.
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: I felt like that's where I kind of threw her
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: under the bus. That's a less than character, where she
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: was sort of a meshed and enslaved in her adoration
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: of Jack. I wouldn't have used those words at the time,
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: but in retrospect, I think that's what I was feeling.
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: Huh.
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So I thought that was interesting from the screenwriter. Yeah,
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: I would say it's definitely that the end always kind
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: of feels like, oh, they're kissing now.
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: To me, I mean, it's kind of the whole level
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: of like you can't just leave it be. They have
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: to be like the man has to somehow Trump. I
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: kind of felt that the same way about completely different genre,
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: but the newer version of Mad Max, Like it could
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: have just been left alone, but you still needed that
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: dude to be the one that rescues and sacrifice himself
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: right right.
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: And it's still like, as most people rightfully pointed out,
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: it's still Jack's story. She's not the center of this story.
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: And while she does have plenty of moments, we're like, okay, cool, Yeah,
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: I like that. I like that she's still ultimately kind
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: of there to prop him up right and play a
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: role in his story. So a lot of people have
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: written a lot about this character, as you might be
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: able to too.
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I didn't know it was the thirtieth anniversary.
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: We always do this.
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: I know a lot of movie My friend and I
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: we were watching Hokus Focus, and I was like, a
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: lot of movies came out in nineteen ninety three, and
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: we went on this whole rabbit hole of like, oh this.
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: One too, this one too. So a lot of anniversaries
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: this year.
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, I would love to hear from listeners
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: if you have any thoughts about this. I had to
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: go find my pajamas see what they say on that.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: You can email us with thoughts our suggestions for this
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: segments at Stephania Moms Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcasts, or
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: on Instagram and TikTok at Stuff We've.
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: Never Told You.
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: You can find us on Tea Public where we have merchandise,
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: and we have a book you can find at stuff
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: you Should Read books dot com. Thanks as always to
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: our super producer Christina, executive producer Maya, and your contributor Joey.
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: Thank you and thanks to you for listening Stuff I
• 16:32
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