Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #596 Jason Flom with Terrel Barros

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#596 Jason Flom with Terrel Barros · Wrongful Conviction

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: When we last brought you Terrell Barrows' story, there had
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: been a major breakthrough. After spending 11 years in prison
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: for a murder he's always maintained he didn't commit, Terrell's
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: conviction was vacated in 2023, and he was released on
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: bail into the waiting arms of his mother. But the
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: state of Rhode Island appealed that decision. Now, we finally
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: have some very good news. In July of this year,
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: the Rhode Island Supreme Court affirmed the decision that overturned
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: Terrell's convictions. At the center of the case was powerful
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: new evidence. The cousin of Stephen Bodden, the man Terrell
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: has always said was the actual shooter, testified that Bodden
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: confessed to her on multiple occasions. On the night of
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: the shooting, Bodden himself had told police, it's me, it's
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: all me, it's all mine, end quote. The lower court
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: bound the new witness credible and concluded that her testimony
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: could have, and let's face it, probably would have changed
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: the verdict. the Rhode Island Supreme Court agreed that this powerful,
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: newly discovered evidence justified overturning Terrell's conviction, and they upheld
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: the ruling, granting him post-conviction relief. So the case now
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: goes back to Superior Court, and the state has to
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: decide whether it's going to try Terrell again. So, the
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: fight isn't completely over. But after more than a decade
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: behind bars, as well as years spent fighting to prove
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: what he has said from the very beginning— one of
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: the biggest obstacles standing between Terrell and his freedom has
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: finally fallen. Now, here is Terrell's story.
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flom. Today, we're
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: going to be discussing the really troubling case of Terrell Barrows,
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: who was wrongfully convicted of a shooting in which one
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: person was killed and another was badly injured. And with
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: us today, we have a student at Georgetown who's been
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: doing incredible work investigating his case under the leadership of
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: my friend, Professor Mark Howard. So Nirjana Hendy, welcome to
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: the show.
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: Thank you, Jason.
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: The Georgetown class that Nurjana is a student in is
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: taught by Mark Howard and a name that you'll recognize
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: from being on our show more than once, Marty Tankliff.
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: And of course, this class was directly responsible for the
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: exoneration of Valentino Dixon. If you haven't heard his episode,
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: please go back and listen to it.
• 2:31
  Speaker 4: It's extraordinary.
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: We hope to be hearing from Terrell Barrows very soon.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: Of course, in this COVID time that we're in, it's
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: very hard to get to the phones in prison, but
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: we will be discussing his case and hopefully hearing from
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: him as the podcast progresses. So let's go back to 2012.
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: Back in August of 2012, Terrell.
• 2:53
  Speaker 5: Barrows and a group of friends headed out to Monet
• 3:00
  Speaker 5: Lounge in Providence, Rhode Island. While they're in the club,
• 3:04
  Speaker 5: there's some sort of verbal altercation between Terrell's group and
• 3:08
  Speaker 5: a couple of members of another group, including the two
• 3:11
  Speaker 5: that got shot. One was Rokeem Henley, who got shot
• 3:14
  Speaker 5: in the leg and who I spoke with a couple
• 3:16
  Speaker 5: of times over the past few months. And then Jamal Cruz,
• 3:19
  Speaker 5: who ended up dying that night. But Terrell wasn't a
• 3:22
  Speaker 5: part of that verbal altercation. It was Stefan Bodden who was.
• 3:26
  Speaker 5: And so a name was called, someone's hat got tapped
• 3:29
  Speaker 5: off their head, and then no one really stays.
• 3:31
  Speaker 3: There's not a physical altercation at all.
• 3:34
  Speaker 5: Later on in the night, Stefan Bodden asked Terrell, he goes, hey,
• 3:38
  Speaker 5: let me get the tactical, get your car keys. So
• 3:40
  Speaker 5: as he's heading over, there is another car that is
• 3:45
  Speaker 5: parked bumper to bumper with Terrell's car. And it just
• 3:49
  Speaker 5: happens to be the car of Jamal Crews, Stefan thought
• 3:54
  Speaker 5: that Jamal and Rokeem were coming to cause problems when
• 3:58
  Speaker 5: in reality they were just walking to their car. Stefan
• 4:01
  Speaker 5: grabs the gun and, you know, witnesses say he told
• 4:05
  Speaker 5: them don't come any closer. And at this point, Terrell
• 4:09
  Speaker 5: starts heading over to his car with his group of friends.
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: Terrell is about.
• 4:13
  Speaker 5: 10 to 15 feet away from Stefan Bowden and Jamal Cruz,
• 4:17
  Speaker 5: which is where all eyewitnesses place him as well. And
• 4:20
  Speaker 5: he's actually walking to get to the other side of
• 4:22
  Speaker 5: his car to hop in the driver's seat because he
• 4:25
  Speaker 5: knows that there's trouble about to happen. He doesn't want
• 4:27
  Speaker 5: to be a part of it. He hears two gunshots.
• 4:30
  Speaker 5: He jumps into the driver's seat and almost immediately, Stefan
• 4:34
  Speaker 5: jumps into the passenger seat and the cops are there
• 4:36
  Speaker 5: to arrest them.
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: And there's more to this, too, because when Stefan jumped
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: into the passenger seat, he had sort of a moment
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: of self-awareness, right, where he started apologizing to Terrell for
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: sort of involving him in this.
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 4:52
  Speaker 5: You know, at this point, the arresting officers are on
• 4:55
  Speaker 5: either side and the gun is still with Stefan Baden.
• 5:00
  Speaker 5: He is caught concealing the gun in the passenger side door.
• 5:04
  Speaker 5: And Stefan actually confesses on the scene. He said, it's me.
• 5:08
  Speaker 5: It's all me. It's all mine. Yet they are both arrested.
• 5:12
  Speaker 5: taken to a paddy wagon, and then there's a show-up
• 5:15
  Speaker 5: that is done. Now, I spoke with a couple of
• 5:18
  Speaker 5: jury members who told me this is what caused us
• 5:21
  Speaker 5: to believe Terrell is guilty. So, in the show-ups, they
• 5:26
  Speaker 5: bring Stefan over to Jamal, who is in critical condition
• 5:29
  Speaker 5: on the floor, extremely intoxicated, and they say, is this
• 5:34
  Speaker 5: the man that shot you? And Jamal looks away. Apparently,
• 5:38
  Speaker 5: when they bring over Terrell... Detective Matrasi says Jamal nods.
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: That's what they say he did. It doesn't matter if
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: he nodded or not. He was in no position to
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: make any identification of anyone, and we still don't know
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: if he did. It's not like he stuck his finger
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: out and went, yeah, that's the guy who shot me,
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: and he's out, right? That's not what happened.
• 5:58
  Speaker 5: They actually did not even do a show-up identification with
• 6:01
  Speaker 5: the other guy, Rokeem Henley, who was shot, and he
• 6:05
  Speaker 5: was not in critical condition.
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: They also didn't bother to swab the hands of either
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: Terrell or Stefan, right? That would be so critical to
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: figuring out who did or did not commit this horrible crime.
• 6:18
  Speaker 5: And Jason, I think it was clear to arresting officers.
• 6:21
  Speaker 5: This had to have been Stefan. It was in his hand.
• 6:23
  Speaker 5: He confesses. That's probably why they didn't even swab their hands.
• 6:28
  Speaker 5: And then, you know, somehow the story gets twisted. And
• 6:32
  Speaker 5: it's now in Terrell because of what they call a
• 6:34
  Speaker 5: dying declaration. Terrell always says, he goes, there were two
• 6:38
  Speaker 5: lives lost that night.
• 6:40
  Speaker 6: Mine.
• 6:41
  Speaker 5: And Jamal Cruz. And I feel bad because Jamal Cruz
• 6:44
  Speaker 5: didn't get justice.
• 6:46
  Speaker 7: This is a free call from an inmate at Maximum
• 6:53
  Speaker 7: Security Facility. Thank you for using Securus. You may start
• 6:58
  Speaker 7: the conversation now.
• 7:00
  Speaker 6: Hello.
• 7:01
  Speaker 4: Hey, Terrell.
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: Thanks for calling in. I know we have limited time,
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: so let's get right to it. Can you take us
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: back to the awful night of this crime and give
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: us your perspective having lived through this nightmare yourself?
• 7:16
  Speaker 6: Well, back at that night, the two dudes approached, and
• 7:19
  Speaker 6: they were talking to Stephan about something. The problem wasn't
• 7:23
  Speaker 6: with me. So we went outside in front of the club.
• 7:26
  Speaker 6: Stephan wanted my keys to go get his cigarettes. So
• 7:29
  Speaker 6: when we go to the car, the two dudes are approaching.
• 7:31
  Speaker 6: So I see them two dudes. I'm like, oh, man,
• 7:34
  Speaker 6: here we go. So I turned around to go to
• 7:36
  Speaker 6: the driver's side of the car. Then I hear shots.
• 7:39
  Speaker 6: So I just run into my car. As soon as
• 7:41
  Speaker 6: I run into my car, the cop is like, honest.
• 7:44
  Speaker 6: He had the gun on me. You know, put your
• 7:46
  Speaker 6: hands on the steering wheel. So I put my hands
• 7:47
  Speaker 6: on the steering wheel, and he keeps on saying it.
• 7:50
  Speaker 6: But he's talking to Stefan. So he puts his hands
• 7:53
  Speaker 6: on the steering wheel, and he's like, yo, I'm sorry,
• 7:55
  Speaker 6: I'm sorry, I love you, I love you. The police
• 7:57
  Speaker 6: officer's talking, and he's like, oh, yo, the passenger's got
• 8:00
  Speaker 6: the gun. So as soon as he opens up the door...
• 8:04
  Speaker 6: Stefan says, it's me, it's all me, it's all mine.
• 8:06
  Speaker 6: He's like, it's you? He's like, yeah, it's me. So
• 8:10
  Speaker 6: when he took him out, he's already handcuffed him. The
• 8:11
  Speaker 6: other cop that had the gun on us, he comes,
• 8:14
  Speaker 6: he slaps the cuffs on the wrist, my wrist, and
• 8:16
  Speaker 6: slams me on the floor. Brings me back to the
• 8:19
  Speaker 6: paddy wagon. There was a guy that was shot. I
• 8:21
  Speaker 6: didn't know no one was shot. I could see blood.
• 8:25
  Speaker 6: This dude was hurt. So this dude was shot in
• 8:27
  Speaker 6: the chest. And this dude was like doing a show
• 8:30
  Speaker 6: up with this guy shot in the chest. Asking him,
• 8:32
  Speaker 6: this him, this him, this him. The guy just looked
• 8:35
  Speaker 6: at me and put his head down. He didn't say nothing.
• 8:37
  Speaker 6: He didn't do nothing. He didn't say nothing. He just
• 8:40
  Speaker 6: put his head down. So then they had put me
• 8:42
  Speaker 6: back in the paddy wagon. They bring me back to
• 8:45
  Speaker 6: the station. When they bring me back to the station,
• 8:47
  Speaker 6: you know, they do the mugshot, the fingerprints, whatever. They
• 8:50
  Speaker 6: brought me to a room with two detectives. I asked
• 8:52
  Speaker 6: for my lawyer. Detective Angelo Avant was the lead detective.
• 8:56
  Speaker 6: He was the one that questioned me the first time
• 8:58
  Speaker 6: and the first night. So he's like, oh, you know,
• 9:00
  Speaker 6: he wants a cigarette. You want a cigarette? I'm like, no.
• 9:02
  Speaker 6: He's like, you want water? I'm like, no. And he
• 9:04
  Speaker 6: kept on trying to talk to me. And I'm like,
• 9:07
  Speaker 6: I want my lawyer. I want my lawyer. I want
• 9:08
  Speaker 6: my lawyer. So he leaves the room, and he comes back,
• 9:12
  Speaker 6: and he brings back the holding cell. So one of
• 9:16
  Speaker 6: the times, I'm like, yo, I'm banging on the door.
• 9:18
  Speaker 6: A cop comes. He's like, oh, what you banging on
• 9:19
  Speaker 6: the door? I'm like, I want my phone call. He's like,
• 9:22
  Speaker 6: phone call? I'm like, yeah. He's like, are you getting
• 9:25
  Speaker 6: plenty of phone calls? We are going. I'm like, where
• 9:26
  Speaker 6: am I going? He's like, we're going to jail. Huh,
• 9:31
  Speaker 6: what the hell? They bring me in the bus. They
• 9:33
  Speaker 6: transport me there. And I find out Monday, the arraignment,
• 9:37
  Speaker 6: that I'm getting charged with murder. I go up into
• 9:39
  Speaker 6: the courtroom. I had to split up. Stephan was on
• 9:42
  Speaker 6: the left side, I was on the right side. So
• 9:44
  Speaker 6: they reached Stephan in his charges. Stephan Bolton possessed him
• 9:47
  Speaker 6: with a firearm. And that was that. It was a
• 9:50
  Speaker 6: Terrell Barrows first-degree murder. I'm like, they charging me with murder?
• 9:55
  Speaker 6: I promise you on everything I love, I did not
• 9:57
  Speaker 6: do it. He had I don't understand it either because
• 9:52
  Speaker 6: it should have been over right then and there. The
• 9:55
  Speaker 6: caller has hung up.
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: You're listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen to this
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: and all the Lava for Good podcasts one week early
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: and ad free by subscribing to Lava for Good Plus
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: on Apple Podcasts. I have never and may never again
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: hear of a case in which the actual shooter skates
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: on the charges after confessing on the scene, right? I mean,
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: at that point, this should be a very short podcast.
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: That should be the end of it. I mean, this
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: would be funny, except it's so freaking serious, right? And
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: this is the system that we all rely on day
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: in and day out. I'd like to believe that we
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: have people who are doing the job that they're paid
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: to do. In this case, it's absolutely true. It failed society.
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: It failed the victim. It failed Terrell. And that's what
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: we're here to talk about. And then it gets weirder
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: because then you start with the the eyewitness. The only
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: eyewitness is a guy named Gregory Zorabedian. And he initially
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: claims he didn't see the shooting and then changed his
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: testimony six days before the trial to say he saw
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: Terrell do it. We have a document signed by the
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: assistant attorney general promising not to charge him for perjury
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: should he alter his testimony. That's maybe just a little
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: bit of a red flag there. Now, get this, okay?
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: This Gregory Zorabedian guy had Well, let's just call it
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: an extensive criminal history, but that might not even be
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: doing it justice. So his rap sheet went back 30 years.
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: It included convictions, not arrests, convictions for living off the
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: earnings of a prostitute, grand larceny, DUI causing death, cocaine possession, burglary, theft, escape.
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: And that's just the beginning. So do we think that
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: after doing all these other things he's done, he might
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: be willing to lie in exchange for a deal? I
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: would say that's a pretty good likelihood. And then let's
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: get to Detective Charles Matrasio. Do you want to take
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: that one, Eugena?
• 12:26
  Speaker 5: He was actually the one who claims that he saw
• 12:30
  Speaker 5: Jamal Cruz nod. When they brought over Terrell, I asked Terrell,
• 12:34
  Speaker 5: I said, yo, were you watching Jamal?
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: He said, yeah, I was watching him. I said, did
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: he not?
• 12:38
  Speaker 5: He said, no, he didn't do anything. So whether he
• 12:39
  Speaker 5: did or did not is another story. But again, Jamal
• 12:42
  Speaker 5: Cruz was under the influence of alcohol. He had a
• 12:45
  Speaker 5: BAC of 0.162, which seems like a lot until we
• 12:48
  Speaker 5: look at Rakeem, who had an actually higher BAC as well.
• 12:52
  Speaker 5: And then both Stefan and Terrell were wearing white t-shirts
• 12:56
  Speaker 5: and darker pants. Out of the group that Terrell was in,
• 12:59
  Speaker 5: he was not the only one with two long black braids.
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: He just wasn't. It was a style.
• 13:05
  Speaker 5: If you look at the pictures of his friend group,
• 13:07
  Speaker 5: he's not the only one with two long black braids.
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: And so.
• 13:10
  Speaker 5: Out of a group of people wearing white shirts, dark pants,
• 13:15
  Speaker 5: two long black braids, you're dying on the floor. And
• 13:17
  Speaker 5: Detective Matrasi says, yeah, he nodded when we brought over Terrell.
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: I mean, how unreal could that be?
• 13:22
  Speaker 5: And so now we're moving into GSR testing.
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: GSR stands for gunshot residue.
• 13:29
  Speaker 5: Yep. And there are three particles of gunshot residue that
• 13:32
  Speaker 5: they test for.
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: When they're looking at clothing.
• 13:35
  Speaker 5: So when Stefan and Terrell were initially arrested, Stefan was
• 13:41
  Speaker 5: pulled out of the car and he was slammed against
• 13:43
  Speaker 5: the side of the car. When Terrell was arrested, he
• 13:47
  Speaker 5: was pulled out of the car and slammed to the ground.
• 13:49
  Speaker 5: So he actually had some dirt on his white shirt
• 13:52
  Speaker 5: in a specific area. What they initially tested was the
• 13:55
  Speaker 5: chest area of both Terrell and and of Stefan, because
• 14:00
  Speaker 5: the theory is if someone is a shooter and they
• 14:04
  Speaker 5: hold the gun straight ahead, that the gunshot residue will
• 14:07
  Speaker 5: recoil and hit them in the chest area.
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: So they talk about Stefan, they go, well, we found
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: lead on Stefan.
• 14:13
  Speaker 5: And they say, well, you also found lead on Terrell.
• 14:16
  Speaker 5: So Terrell whispers to his attorney, ask if they happened
• 14:20
  Speaker 5: to find the lead where my shirt was dirty.
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: They said, yes.
• 14:24
  Speaker 5: So it makes sense that that's the only place on
• 14:26
  Speaker 5: his clothing where they found lead. So this is all
• 14:29
  Speaker 5: the information they had in terms of GSR at trial,
• 14:32
  Speaker 5: but there is more GSR evidence to come, which is
• 14:36
  Speaker 5: part of what we are motioning for with the new
• 14:39
  Speaker 5: hearing coming up.
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: Well, we're on initials, right? We'll go from GSR to DNA.
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: And the DNA report excluded Terrell from having held the gun.
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: So let's touch for a second on the DNA expert
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: for the state, who we know was, well, I mean, most, unfortunately,
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: quote unquote, experts are pro-prosecution. In fact, the whole system
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: is pro-prosecution. Over 80% of judges are former prosecutors. So
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: Throughout the process, there's a tilt towards prosecution, and the
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: experts that you're seeing may not be objective at all.
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: And this is one of those cases where I think
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: that there's a strong argument to that effect. So, Nurjana,
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: can you talk about that?
• 15:19
  Speaker 5: Yeah, Cara Lupino gave extremely pro-prosecution testimony. And the way
• 15:24
  Speaker 5: that she had presented it, the attorney would ask a question,
• 15:27
  Speaker 5: the prosecutor. She would respond and say, yes, and Terrell
• 15:30
  Speaker 5: was included. And then you all of a sudden get
• 15:32
  Speaker 5: to the very, very, very end. And they really quickly
• 15:35
  Speaker 5: sneak in a couple of lines of Terrell was excluded
• 15:38
  Speaker 5: and Stefan Bodden's DNA could not be excluded. So when
• 15:43
  Speaker 5: I'm talking to the juror, she goes, I don't even
• 15:46
  Speaker 5: really remember him being excluded.
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: It was so confusing. There were a lot of numbers
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: thrown out.
• 15:52
  Speaker 5: Terrell seemed to be included in almost every mixture that
• 15:55
  Speaker 5: they're talking about. It's absolutely insane. And if I was
• 15:59
  Speaker 5: in the jury, I would have thought the same thing.
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: The state's witness essentially muddied the waters of what was
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: a pretty cut-and-dried DNA report that excluded Terrell from having
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: ever held the gun. But then there's Rokeem Henley, the
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: other guy who got shot that night. His testimony... along
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: with the ballistic evidence known at the time of trial,
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: make it an actual impossibility that Terrell could have been
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: the shooter.
• 16:26
  Speaker 5: He does testify, and when I asked him the same
• 16:29
  Speaker 5: question when I met with him, he said the only
• 16:32
  Speaker 5: person standing close to Jamal Cruz was Stephen Bodden. So
• 16:36
  Speaker 5: I said, here's the discrepancy. Did you see who shot you?
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: He said no. I said, okay, well, ballistic evidence.
• 16:47
  Speaker 5: proves that the shot was made from near contact to
• 16:52
  Speaker 5: 18 inches away. And you are telling me that the
• 16:56
  Speaker 5: only person standing near contact to 18 inches away from
• 16:59
  Speaker 5: Jamal Cruz was Stefan Bodden. He said yes, but I
• 17:03
  Speaker 5: didn't see him shoot the gun. It's kind of a
• 17:05
  Speaker 5: confusing testimony. You don't see Stefan do it, but you
• 17:10
  Speaker 5: also claim you did not see Terrell outside. You don't
• 17:13
  Speaker 5: know who Terrell is. The only time he saw Terrell
• 17:16
  Speaker 5: was at trial. So if Rokeem had never seen Terrell
• 17:20
  Speaker 5: and the shot was made from near contact to 18
• 17:23
  Speaker 5: inches away, it is impossible that Terrell was the shooter.
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: Nevertheless, the incentivized witness, the muddy DNA report, and of course,
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: the testimony of Detective Matrasia were too much to overcome.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: And Terrell was sentenced to two life sentences plus 30 years.
• 17:42
  Speaker 7: This is a free call from Terrell, an inmate at
• 17:48
  Speaker 7: Maximum Security Facility. Thank you for using Securus. You may
• 17:52
  Speaker 7: start the conversation now.
• 17:56
  Speaker 6: Hello?
• 17:57
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: The investigators in your case, Terrell, it was Detective Matrascia
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: and Detective Angelo, right?
• 18:03
  Speaker 6: Yeah. Detective Angelo was the leader of the case. Matrascia
• 18:09
  Speaker 6: was the one that lied about Jamal saying it was
• 18:12
  Speaker 6: me at the show up. So what I was told
• 18:14
  Speaker 6: was this from a lot of lawyers, and they all
• 18:16
  Speaker 6: gave me the same answer. Y'all are in this situation.
• 18:20
  Speaker 6: They pin this on you. It's because you asked for
• 18:23
  Speaker 6: your lawyer. I asked for my lawyer. That's my right.
• 18:26
  Speaker 6: They said, yeah, but you didn't tell them what they
• 18:28
  Speaker 6: wanted to hear, and they threw it on you. Jamal
• 18:32
  Speaker 6: ain't here. So you can put any words in that
• 18:35
  Speaker 6: man's mouth you want because you can't put him on
• 18:38
  Speaker 6: the stand and cross-examine him. So what the cops do,
• 18:41
  Speaker 6: they go on the stand and they think, no, they
• 18:45
  Speaker 6: know they know that the jury look at them as superheroes.
• 18:49
  Speaker 6: The jury don't think that the cops are going to
• 18:50
  Speaker 6: go on the stand and lie. And that's what they did.
• 18:55
  Speaker 6: And Jamal ain't here. Now, this was before this even
• 18:58
  Speaker 6: going on with George Floyd. This was in like 2012, 2013.
• 19:03
  Speaker 6: So around that time, that climate was like, oh, no,
• 19:07
  Speaker 6: the police ain't going to lie on this kid.
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: Terrell, you've gone through this insane nightmare. Everything that could
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: go wrong has gone wrong so far. But then comes
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: the moment where the jury goes out and they come
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: back in. Did you think that they were going to
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: find you innocent? Tell us about that moment.
• 19:25
  Speaker 6: They bring me down to the elevator to the courtroom.
• 19:27
  Speaker 6: And you can just feel, like, the tension in the courtroom.
• 19:31
  Speaker 6: And the jury come in. Their faces are funny. They
• 19:36
  Speaker 6: said I was guilty. And then everybody, just my family,
• 19:40
  Speaker 6: everybody was just like, no, he's innocent. Like, they just
• 19:43
  Speaker 6: went crazy. I'm just sitting there, like, in shock. I'm
• 19:47
  Speaker 6: in shock. Like, everybody's standing up. I'm the only one
• 19:49
  Speaker 6: sitting down. And what got me out of the trance
• 19:52
  Speaker 6: is I seen Detective Angelo Pavone laughing. So I said, yo,
• 20:00
  Speaker 6: what you think this is, funny? He just looked at me.
• 20:03
  Speaker 6: And I looked at Jamal's family. And I turned around
• 20:06
  Speaker 6: to him. I said, I didn't do this to your son.
• 20:09
  Speaker 6: I promise you, I promise you, I did not do
• 20:11
  Speaker 6: this to your son. I did not do this. They
• 20:13
  Speaker 6: didn't get justice for your son. They're lying to you.
• 20:16
  Speaker 6: And they're just looking at me, like, in a shock.
• 20:20
  Speaker 6: Everyone's going crazy. So during that commotion, I seen the prosecutor, like,
• 20:24
  Speaker 6: hug the brother, like they were in the Super Bowl,
• 20:26
  Speaker 6: smacking his back, like, yeah, yeah, we got him. And
• 20:28
  Speaker 6: I'm just looking at him like, you're lying to this family. Like,
• 20:31
  Speaker 6: this is a big lie. Like, you just found an
• 20:34
  Speaker 6: innocent kid guilty for a crime you didn't do. They
• 20:38
  Speaker 6: just wanted the conviction. I know they know I didn't
• 20:40
  Speaker 6: do it because the prosecutor, you know, when you see
• 20:44
  Speaker 6: bogus charges, but you still go forward with it because
• 20:47
  Speaker 6: you want a conviction. They don't care if you're innocent.
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they're thinking about their future, their aspirations, the way
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: they can be successful. They know that's by having a
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: good conviction rate by and large, but it's like it's
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: some sort of sick scoreboard. And There are decent prosecutors
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: out there. There are some really good ones, too. But
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: the ones that are willing to ignore evidence of innocence
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: and prosecute clearly bogus cases like yours just to get
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: another notch on their belt, just to move up the ladder,
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: they're a disgrace. And they're actually a menace to public safety.
• 21:22
  Speaker 6: They use our backs as a stepping stone to the top.
• 21:25
  Speaker 6: They ruin our family to make their family better. Yeah,
• 21:29
  Speaker 6: they just look at it as a money sign.
• 21:32
  Speaker 4: And as if.
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: This case couldn't get worse or weirder, Stefan Baden put
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: out a song. I guess he was trying to rid
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: himself of the guilt of skating on the murder rap.
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: And allowing his friend to rot in prison, right?
• 22:00
  Speaker 5: He wrote this song called Letter to Terrell. It's really
• 22:04
  Speaker 5: more of a guilt trip. Saying things like, we should
• 22:07
  Speaker 5: have never went out to the club that night. It's
• 22:09
  Speaker 5: painful that you're in that cell. It's painful on my mother.
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: How is he out and Terrell's in prison?
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: Stephen Bodden is now dead.
• 22:24
  Speaker 5: He was shot in a car shooting in 2017.
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: It's too much.
• 22:30
  Speaker 4: I mean, the.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: Good news is he's the only good news here, I guess,
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: is that he's got a fantastic team now. We've got
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: some momentum. Can you talk about that new evidence? Talk
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: about his new lawyer and what lays ahead?
• 22:44
  Speaker 5: The original theory was if you hold a gun straight
• 22:48
  Speaker 5: out in front of you, the GSR or gunshot residue
• 22:51
  Speaker 5: will fly back and hit the chest area, as I
• 22:55
  Speaker 5: mentioned before.
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: However, Bob Kando.
• 22:59
  Speaker 5: Terrell's newer attorney, went ahead and looked at the trajectory
• 23:04
  Speaker 5: of the bullets and he had a couple of questions
• 23:07
  Speaker 5: about where the shot was actually made from. How is
• 23:09
  Speaker 5: it possible that Rakeem didn't see the shooter? How is
• 23:12
  Speaker 5: it possible that if Jamal gave a dying declaration that
• 23:15
  Speaker 5: he gave it to the wrong person? And how is
• 23:17
  Speaker 5: it possible that if Stefan's the real shooter, we find
• 23:21
  Speaker 5: only lead on him?
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: Where are the other particles of GSR?
• 23:25
  Speaker 5: So Bob Kando goes ahead and puts in a request
• 23:29
  Speaker 5: for other areas of Bodden's clothing to be analyzed, including
• 23:34
  Speaker 5: his crotch and belt area. Lo and behold, they come
• 23:39
  Speaker 5: back with more particles of GSR, which ends up being
• 23:42
  Speaker 5: huge news. putting together trajectory of the bullets, putting together GSR,
• 23:47
  Speaker 5: Stefan Baden actually took the shots from right next to
• 23:51
  Speaker 5: his belt. He actually did not hold the gun straight ahead.
• 23:54
  Speaker 5: So if that were to happen, someone who's extremely intoxicated
• 23:57
  Speaker 5: wouldn't be able to see the gun.
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: And when I actually ended up speaking.
• 23:59
  Speaker 5: To Rakim later, I said, well, you know, the new
• 24:02
  Speaker 5: evidence really says that the gun was next to him.
• 24:04
  Speaker 5: He responds, he goes, oh, that might explain it. So
• 24:08
  Speaker 5: the that might explain why Rokeem didn't see that Stefan
• 24:13
  Speaker 5: shot him.
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: So that's very exciting.
• 24:15
  Speaker 5: And with this new evidence, with the new affidavit that
• 24:18
  Speaker 5: we have written, new eyewitnesses who are coming forward, family
• 24:22
  Speaker 5: members of Stefan Bodden who are coming forward and saying,
• 24:26
  Speaker 5: I know Stefan did it.
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: He told me multiple times. We are taking all of this.
• 24:31
  Speaker 5: And Bob is pushing for a hearing in September with
• 24:34
  Speaker 5: a motion for a new trial. And we're hoping that
• 24:37
  Speaker 5: we can get Terrell home very soon.
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: And that leads to what happens now and what can
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: people do?
• 24:44
  Speaker 5: A mini documentary came out about Terrell Barrows.
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: Please check it out. The title of it is on YouTube.
• 24:50
  Speaker 5: It's called Making an Exoneree 2020-The Story of Terrell Barrows.
• 24:56
  Speaker 5: And in that, you'll really see everything that we outlined
• 24:58
  Speaker 5: throughout this entire podcast, as well as getting to hear
• 25:02
  Speaker 5: from people who heard from Stefan himself that he did it.
• 25:06
  Speaker 5: And then there's also a Change.org petition that sends a
• 25:09
  Speaker 5: letter to the governor who has been pretty vocal about,
• 25:13
  Speaker 5: you know, the BLM movement and everything that's happening right now.
• 25:15
  Speaker 5: So we're hoping that she'll also hop onto this. Change.org
• 25:20
  Speaker 5: slash Free Terrell Barrows. So it's Change.org slash Free Terrell Barrows.
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: Our wonderful producers have put the link in the podcast
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: description below. So you can just scroll down on whatever
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: platform you're listening to. Please share it on social media.
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: Tell people, listen to the episode, watch the video content
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: that's out there. We can win this. So now this
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: is the part where I get to thank our guests
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: in this case, Nourjana Hendy. Thank you for being here.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: And of course, Terrell Barros. We're here for you. We're
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: going to fight for you. And thank you as well
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: for sharing. your thoughts with us. Now I'm going to
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: turn off my microphone, kick back in my chair and
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: let Norjana Handy share her final thoughts in the segment
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: we call Closing Arguments.
• 26:14
  Speaker 5: Terrell is an amazing man. I could go on and
• 26:17
  Speaker 5: on about who he is as a person, the character
• 26:20
  Speaker 5: that he has and the change that he will make
• 26:23
  Speaker 5: when he is brought home. And It has been such
• 26:28
  Speaker 5: an honor to be in his life, to be in
• 26:30
  Speaker 5: his mother's life, to be in his attorney's life. And
• 26:32
  Speaker 5: I'm hoping that we can prove Terrell's innocence and bring
• 26:36
  Speaker 5: him home to his mom, to his family, and to
• 26:40
  Speaker 5: society where he belongs and where I am 1000% sure
• 26:44
  Speaker 5: that he is going to make a difference. this is
• 26:47
  Speaker 5: not the end and it's definitely not the beginning. This,
• 26:51
  Speaker 5: you know, story with Terrell has happened many times in
• 26:54
  Speaker 5: the past and unfortunately will continue to happen unless people
• 26:58
  Speaker 5: like me, like you, Jason, come together and bring Terrell home.
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: And now over to you, Terrell. Again, thank you for
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: being here and thank you for your courage and your spirit.
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: Hang in there. We're all out here rooting for you
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: and more importantly, fighting for you. So now, Over to
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: you for closing arguments.
• 27:19
  Speaker 6: I just want to thank everybody for listening. And I
• 27:23
  Speaker 6: want to start off by thanking Jason for giving me
• 27:26
  Speaker 6: this platform to explain my situation. We need people like Jason,
• 27:31
  Speaker 6: Mark Howard, Marty Tankwood, the Georgetown students, Najana, Leo, Caroline.
• 27:38
  Speaker 6: They are fighting so hard for me. My attorney, Robert Kando,
• 27:44
  Speaker 6: I just want to thank him for being there for
• 27:46
  Speaker 6: me and really fighting for me because he knows I'm
• 27:49
  Speaker 6: really innocent, you know? I also got to thank the
• 27:52
  Speaker 6: two main women in my life, my mother and Anne-Lisha.
• 27:56
  Speaker 6: If it wasn't for Anne-Lisha reaching out to Mark, I
• 27:59
  Speaker 6: would have none of this right now, this interview, the documentary,
• 28:03
  Speaker 6: the petition, none of this would be going on right
• 28:05
  Speaker 6: now if this wasn't for her. I want to thank
• 28:08
  Speaker 6: my mother for always being there for me. Her strength
• 28:12
  Speaker 6: is where I get it from. But right here, I'm innocent.
• 28:16
  Speaker 6: And she told me to fight, fight, fight until I
• 28:18
  Speaker 6: get my freedom. I got a post-conviction hearing coming up.
• 28:23
  Speaker 6: And I'm fighting for a new trial. And I'm fighting
• 28:25
  Speaker 6: for freedom. I need your help. I just need as
• 28:28
  Speaker 6: much people to sign this petition.
• 28:31
  Speaker 7: You have one minute left.
• 28:33
  Speaker 6: And spread the word. We need allies. There's a lot
• 28:37
  Speaker 6: of us in here. that are voiceless. And I am
• 28:43
  Speaker 6: blessed to have the family I have, to have this
• 28:47
  Speaker 6: voice to speak, because it's given me a platform to
• 28:51
  Speaker 6: speak for the voiceless in this prison. I feel like
• 28:56
  Speaker 6: people are putting in my life for a reason. I
• 28:59
  Speaker 6: know that I'm going to get out of jail, and
• 29:00
  Speaker 6: I've got to fight on if I want to kill
• 29:02
  Speaker 6: people who are innocent in prison, because it has to stop.
• 29:09
  Speaker 6: These cops need to be held accountable. They're not just
• 29:13
  Speaker 6: killing us in the streets. They're killing us in these courts.
• 29:16
  Speaker 6: And there's no consequences when they do it. They need
• 29:22
  Speaker 6: to be accomplished. Too many people in the prison system
• 29:24
  Speaker 6: with their lives took in for something they didn't do.
• 29:28
  Speaker 6: It has to stop.
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: Don't forget. to give us a fantastic review wherever you
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: get your podcasts.
• 29:43
  Speaker 6: It really helps.
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project, and
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: to InnocenceProject.org to learn how to donate and get involved.
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: Kevin Wardus. The music in the show is by three-time
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: Oscar-nominated composer.
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: Jay Ralph.
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: Jason Flom is a production of Lava for Good Podcast
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: in association with Signal Company No. 1.