Latest / Financial Planner Life Podcast / Building Client Trust with Divorce Financial Specialist Nikki Pipping

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Building Client Trust with Divorce Financial Specialist Nikki Pipping · Financial Planner Life Podcast

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, and welcome to the Financial Planner Life Podcast, where we talk to professionals at varying stages in their career about what it's like working in the wonderful world of financial planning and financial advice.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: This podcast is proudly sponsored by Recruit UK, a recruitment consultancy specifically focused on the financial services.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: They have a niche specialism, recruiting within the financial planning industry.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: So check out their website for the latest job opportunities, hints and tips, and blog articles.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: Hello everyone, it's Elena back for a super exciting episode on the Financial Planner Live podcast.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_02: And this week I am joined by Nikki Pipping, Financial Advisor, Collective Financial Planning.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_02: Within this episode, we talk about how you can use your personal experiences to add value and help other people, the importance of soft skills and building strong, trusted relationships, and why progressive, forward-thinking financial planning firms need to look at the age profile and gender profiles of their financial advisors.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: Nikki Pipping, financial planner for collective financial planning.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I was looking through the vouched for top-rated advisors the other day and in the top 20 in 2021, vouched for top-rated financial advisors as well.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: So congratulations on that.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, yeah, thanks very much.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: How are you doing today, Nikki?
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: Well, really good, thank you.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, really busy.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: Good, busy, that's exactly what we like to hear.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: So I thought we'd start off, if you don't mind, by just introducing yourself, letting the audience know a little bit about what you do.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: Super, yeah.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: So my name's Nikki, as you said, and I'm a financial planner and based in Milton Keynes.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I live with my two teenage sons.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: Well, one actually, one's at uni, you're not coming back for a couple of weeks.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I've been in the industry for coming up seven, eight years now, trained as a financial advisor, having come through as a paraplanner.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I know all the admin and the analysis kind of things, which I think gives me really good grounding.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I now work as a fully qualified financial planner as part of our practice, and I specialise in helping women who have come through divorce and need a bit of help getting back on their feet financially.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so I'd say your LinkedIn bio reads, and I help divorcees take back control of their financial futures.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_02: So obviously, you know, from the onset, when you find yourself on LinkedIn, you're now sort of personal, branded and marketed as someone that specialises in sort of divorcees and helping them plan their financial futures.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_02: Do you mind explaining a little bit about your personal circumstances and how it sort of got to that point?
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it seems a little bit weird, doesn't it?
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's a weird thing to sort of um focus on.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: But um obviously as a financial advisor, you can work with anyone from all walks of life.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: But I personally went through my own divorce um and that was finalised last May.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: And even with all my own financial experience, um, I found the process exhausting and challenging and at sometimes just completely overwhelming.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I felt lonely throughout the whole process actually.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: And whilst everybody's used to finding a solicitor, um, they don't necessarily engage somebody to help them with their finances.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: So if I found it difficult, I just thought, my goodness, how do other people find their way through this system?
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I just felt that if I could help other women in any way, share my experiences, share my um you know, my tips of getting through it, then that would be a good thing.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: That you know, that's literally what happened.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I seem to have magnetised other women.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't something I initially went out and looked for, but um, having had the experience, as divorcees come through the practice door, they they come to me, because I'm the one that can sort of pass the tissues and be the shoulder to cry on and help from personal experience, you know, not just with the actual physical financial advice, but also, oh, there's some forms that need filling in, or oh, don't forget you've got to get that bit of paper done.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's more hand-holding than your professional advice.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: As you just said yourself, you know, this is an experience that you also went through personally, you know, you went through a divorce, and you as a financial planner, you know, found it difficult to navigate around that space, and you've got all the knowledge and all the training and all the backup behind you.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: So you can only imagine what other women that are going through the same sort of experience without that knowledge behind them, the situations that they find themselves in.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_02: So, what sort of issues may divorcee women face that is like very specific to their situation?
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I think um once you've come out the other side of the divorce, you're just kind of you're on your knees, you're exhausted, as I say, the process is traumatic.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: And then you then find yourself in a world like you're your future was mapped out before there were two of you, and you had this life plan, possibly mostly people do eventually.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then you your world has just split, you you reach this fork in your life's plan, and you you end off on this tangent that you never planned for.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: So before you'd maybe plan to see out your days growing old with this person, you've got two pensions, you've got two state pensions, you've got your house, and everything's ticking along.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's never enough money for months, but at least you've got a plan, and there's two of you.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: And all of a sudden, like I say, you've gone down this other tangent and you've got through this divorce, and then you're faced with, oh, hang on a second.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I've now only got one lot of pension statements coming through, and I've got this whole mortgage all on my own shoulders.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: And then the realization hits that I'm only gonna get one state pension, but I've still got to finance my life, and there's just me.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think that it doesn't hit straight away, but actually, if you do engage someone like myself, maybe to help out help sort out the pension sharing order, then that's certainly something I'm gonna raise fairly on in the process.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just sorting out pension sharing order, it's facing that financial future.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and we're facing it head on, not hiding from it, because you can't if you just ignore it, or you're never gonna, you know, you're gonna find yourself working till 75.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: Let's face that head on, let's put things in place, let's um, yeah, let's put some hand in place.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: I can imagine for lots of women, and you touched on this before, you uh touched on this previously, you know, you act like a bit of a shoulder to cry on, you know, you're there to hand the tissues, it's the the emotional side of things as well.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I can imagine that you know, when you're a divorcee woman and you've come out of all of this, it is is really overwhelming, you know, on the finance side and the personal side as well.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and to add, yeah, to add to that, quite often, especially maybe slightly older women, the the way the relationships often worked, you know, in the past has been that the man's handled all of the finances.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: So you've got that that element as well.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: So you come out the other side, yeah, you're emotional, you're exhausted, and now bills keep coming through the door, or post comes through the door, or pension statements you've never seen before because somebody else handled it for you, and now you're on your own, and who's going to help you do that?
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and a lot of paperwork that comes through from financial companies was so regulated, there's a lot of information that needs to be in that paperwork, but it it's baffling to a lot of people.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just yeah, it's just being being another another pair of eyes, another, you know, a person to be a soundboard, to just just to help, just to help and guide, really, because I think it can be terrifying.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: The emotional side of things is you know just as important as the actual providing the financial planning advice.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_02: Do you find lots of women then that have come out of this, you know, divorce?
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_02: It is actually the first time that they themselves have gone for financial advice.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe previously, as you said, their partners have done all the finances or they've actually gone to a financial planner but with a partner, so they've not fully done everything themselves.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_02: Do you find that this is potentially for some of these people, you know, the first time they've really sat down and looked at financial planning themselves?
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, 100%.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, it's not everybody, but for a lot of people, it is their first experience of financial planning, and it's it's terrifying.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: And they don't even really realise what we do and what and what we need to do.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: So they'll have a document from the court that says you're awarded a portion of your ex-husband's pension, and then they go, What do I do with that?
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: What does that mean?
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and then they've got to find it, then they've got to find a financial advisor, which actually um in itself can be quite scary because how do they find one?
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: And and they don't know what that's going to mean.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: So you and I touched on this before on a on a previous call.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's about breaking down those those barriers, about becoming more approachable.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, I think people's image in their head is of um a very jargon-filled, quite a close-knit community.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: They're made to maybe, you know, the power is imbalance, maybe they're made to feel stupid.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: They don't want to feel stupid and ask silly questions, and and maybe that's worse for women.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: I I tend to find that that's worse for women.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: I know I felt like that when I was looking for lawyers.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't want them to look down on me, but I've got all these silly questions.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it's finding someone that you can have a personal relationship with that you don't mind opening up and saying, I don't really understand what this bit of paper means.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: What does that mean?
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: And and that that's what's important for me.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: What I'm trying to achieve with with my clients is a relationship, one where I'm approachable, I'm empathetic, and we spend time with me just listening and just we compare notes in a way, you know.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: What did that happen to you?
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: And and this happened, and and uh and and then we look at the finances because it's about building a relationship with someone so that you trust them enough to even begin to understand the world of finance.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's what that's how I feel, yeah.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_02: Do you feel like going then obviously it's an experience that you've you've gone through yourself, and now sort of moving forward, you've ended up, as you just said, when you didn't even necessarily mean to end up specializing in divorcee women, but the way that it's manifested is is is that is how it's panned out.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think that is due to the fact that obviously you have been through this experience yourself, you having gone through a similar experience to other people allows them to open up and feel more comfortable?
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think so.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's the same when I was looking for lawyers, you know.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I I went for various meetings with various different lawyers, but the lady I went with was someone who had been there who could say, Yeah, I've done this, I've been there.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: Because you you're looking for someone you can connect with, for someone who can give you first hand experience.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: And if I hadn't have been through that process myself, I wouldn't necessarily know the pitfalls, I wouldn't know which forms need to be filled in, or at what process you apply for this, or press that button, or or whatever.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: So at least having been through it, I might not know all the answers because everybody's process is slightly different and everyone's situation is different, but I certainly now can talk from a point of experience, and I've got the connections of other people that I can say, well, actually that didn't happen to me, but I know this lady that it did, and you know that's that's really important, and I think that's what people are looking for, isn't it?
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but anything in life, anything in life, I think.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_02: You want someone that you you can build rapport with, and I know we spoke about this previously, but financial planning, and it's it's just it's such a barrier for women generally to access financial planning, whether you're you're a divorcee woman, whether you're a young woman, whether you're a woman that's you know just starting to look at their finances or starting to think about their pension and stuff like that.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_02: It is viewed as such an archaic industry.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_02: You you view it as men in pinstripe suits that are going to try and sell you things and sort of coat it in technical jargon.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_02: So I really appreciate that it's all about building those trusted relationships.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_02: It's not just nowadays about selling you something, it's all about actually building a really strong foundation to go along with it.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_02: And we spoke about this previously, you know, financial planning, then therefore being a good financial advisor is not just all about your technical knowledge or your product knowledge.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, that becomes such a good is a big part of it, but the soft skills are really crucial.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm sure you and in in your position and the people that you deal with, the soft skill side of things is just as important as having that really strong technical knowledge and knowing everything about sort of financial planning behind that.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I almost feel like that's more important, yeah.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: Because yeah, I do.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: Because in order for in order for someone to trust you with their finances, and let's be honest, you know, when we're doing a fact farm, when we're when we're building information for a client in order to come up with a recommendation, we literally need to know everything, you know.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: So that that person has to feel comfortable with with you as a person in order to be able to open up and share that information because it is everything.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and if you're not comfortable with that person that you're talking to, you're gonna hold back or or you're gonna be nervous about giving that information.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I totally get it, especially for people that are my age or older, you know, will remember the pension scandals, you know, and all the history that financial services has gone through.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I've I I wouldn't have joined financial services in in that era.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: It it was a it was an odd era, and it's it's just been cleaned up so much.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: The FCA is so strict that I I feel like we found as an industry we're finding our moral compass, and that that is a strong part of who I am.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: I've got a really strong moral compass.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: I want to do what's right for people, I want to make a difference to their lives, and and now everything's more transparent, and it is we put the heart, you know, the heart of everything we do is is our client, and we make a commitment to see them once a year, minimum, once a year we see them, and that's 100% right.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: Why was that never the case?
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, how can you have sold somebody in the olden days?
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: You'd have been sold a pension, wouldn't you?
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: You've been sold a pension at 22.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: You might never have sat down with a financial advisor again until you hit retirement at 65, 66, 68, whatever it is now.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: How many things change in your life and then it's ridiculous.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know, who you were at 22 and what you were prepared to put your money into at 22 will not be the same as what you wanted at 50 or 60 or 30.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, life just changes.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, I came into the industry when it was changing and when it was more about relationships, it's about going on that journey with that client.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: So for some people, you know, I've got clients who are 18, that's a long journey, they're gonna outlive me.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and for others, they look they're closer, you know, they're closer to the end of their journey.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you know, for the divorcees, we're sort of generally in the middle and they're my age-ish, so we're working hand in hand, and that's what I'm aiming for.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'm aiming to be their partner, to hold their hand for this into the next phase of their life, and from that point forward, and for them to feel like they've got somebody they can trust, that they can turn to then for all those little questions that come up when their husbands might have dealt with that in the past, or there's this letter that's come through, or you know, I'm taking my pension, I've got these forms, what do I fill in?
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, might be an NHS nurse, and you get you get a stack of paperwork to fill in.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, and you just need somebody to to sit and hold your hand and do that with.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's what I'm aiming for is that you know, using using the empathy, being there, being accountable, and being a partner, moving moving forwards.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: And that's really critical.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, really critical.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, as I I do agree, I think the the soft and it's whereas we just touched on then, financial planning is no longer, and holistic financial planning, especially, is no longer all about sales or just generally about assets under management.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's about planning for your children to go to university, when are you going to buy your first house, sort of planning for your dream holidays?
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_02: It's everything all-encompassing.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_02: So I fully appreciate you know why you've got to sit there and build those strong relationships with these individuals.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_02: And obviously, for someone like yourself, when you've gone through the divorce, working with divorcee women, it's you can build those really strong, trusted relationships built on empathy because you fully understand or appreciate at least, if you don't fully understand what the other individual is going um going through.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: No, everyone's different.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, loads of people generally are, especially within financial planning and also working with Recruit UK alongside being in the Financial Planner Live podcast, lots of people are always really hungry to chase those high net worth clients.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: And we spoke about this before.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, there's nothing wrong with going after those high net worth individuals, but someone like yourself has proven that you can really sort of take advantage and monopolize as such on your experiences to help other people.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_02: Would you recommend that other people do this or have a think about how they can really add value to their clients?
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, adding value is really is critical.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if you were to um go onto LinkedIn or Google financial advisors, there I mean there's not that many of us.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's something like 25,000.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: Don't know if you know the figures, but it's not it's not massive.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: There's not enough financial advisors for for people in the in the country.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: But if you just search for financial advisors, it's a bit like if you search for, I don't know, driving instructor, you just get a list of names.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: How do you how do you pick one of those?
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: How do you narrow that down to the person that you are going to trust to look after your money or you're gonna trust your 17-year-old child to learn to drive or whatever it might be?
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: So finding something that you're good at or that you're specialized in or that you're interested in, or you feel you can help, helps that client find you, you know.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I took advice on this from some cleverer people than me who were the ones that said, you know, you need to find a niche, and I'd found it, I just haven't really vocalized it, if you like.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, they're right, because now when somebody's looking for a financial advisor who because they've got a pension share reward or they're going through divorce, you know, I'm gonna pop up.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't pop up if somebody is looking to save for a holiday necessarily, but somebody else might, or and I don't do mortgages, so I'm not gonna pop up if they're looking for mortgages.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: But this is my passion, this is my mission, this is this is what um drives me.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: So that's great.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: We're marrying the two needs, aren't we, or the two types of people, if you like.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess it's not only helping the client, well, it's not only helping me, but it's helping the client, and I and I guess that's what I'm trying to say.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: So if if any other financial advisor has a passion, or they can at least identify what it is they're doing, or they're identify the clients they want to help, that's helping that client find them too.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: So you're you have you're cutting down the time that it takes for that person to find the person they want to work with.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's maybe it, isn't it?
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_02: 100%.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I fully understand, you know, you type in financial advisors, Bristol, where we're based, you will literally get a list.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_02: And if you're looking for financial planning, how do you actually know who is gonna work best with you or who you're gonna sit down with and be able to build that relationship and who's gonna build that empathy?
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, you touched on that the relationship building side of things is just important, and you really want to be adding value.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I guess that's where for yourself, being able to sit there, as you touched on with someone with a box of tissues, being able to let them actually have someone to a shoulder to cry on.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe they've not even spoken to someone else themselves that is divorced or has gone through that whole experience.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_02: So I can imagine that emotional side of things is literally just as important as the the financial planning process side, and that for an individual like divorcee women, they are looking for someone that they really can open up to and open on all levels.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_02: And there's nothing saying that there's not that the place for the male financial advisor in this sphere, but you're not going to get that same relationship as a divorcee woman if you go to the generic what is 75% of financial advisors that is sort of male and over the age of 50.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: Potentially not.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: No, potentially not.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think uh intrinsically women and men approach things differently.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and we we do tend to connect as women on a more emotional level.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, even if we let's just say we all go down the pub, generally, I'm being stereotypical here, but generally the men are not going to be talking about their emotions, are they?
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: They're gonna be talking about football or what's gone on in the world, you know, what's gone on at work or whatever.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like when I was married, I'd my husband might have gone to the pub and I'd come back and say, Oh, has so-and-so had their baby yet?
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: Or is has this person done this?
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: And he'll go, Oh, I didn't know they were pregnant.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: They would not have talked about all of that.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas women, that's the first thing we're gonna talk about, isn't it?
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna talk about what's going on in their lives, how they're feeling about X, Y, Z, their mum's ed, or the kids, I don't know, had trouble at school.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna know all that, we're gonna know all that nitty-gritty, and that's what connects us as women.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: We're quite we're gonna we but that just I guess that's biology, isn't it?
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: So, and I think for me, even without niching down and and moving into this particular field, even before that, when I first started and I tried to work out how I was gonna be and finding my way in the world as an advisor, I quickly learned that for me it's about the relationships, it's about allowing enough time so that you can have a cup of tea, you can have a chat, you get to know as people and as women.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: And if you've if you don't have that part of the experience for a woman client, I think they're not gonna engage with you, they're not gonna feel comfortable enough to open up about their finances and their world and their dreams because we need that emotional connection first.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense?
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, fully, no, and I I fully I completely agree.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I do think, you know, we we said touch on this previously that if I was gonna go, for example, I'm 22, you know, if I'm my dad's a financial advisor, so dad gets uh the the pleasure of dealing with me.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, I'd go for someone that related with with my issues, someone that understands, someone that I felt like I could be open with and maybe say things that are slightly more silly or you know, sound a bit you know, stupid in your head, but you don't mind opening up because you really.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Trust and engage with that person.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like what you've just touched on then about how women generally, you know, you get us all into the pub, we all want to talk about our feelings.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I was funny you said about voice, I was like, the first thing they want to talk about is football, and we are being, you know, stereotypical.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, I do think the characteristics of um many females and what are stereotypically female characteristics in regards to the empathy, the being good listeners, being slightly more intuitive, are really good characteristics for a financial planner.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_02: Do you not agree?
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think so.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think they're essential.
• 22:37
  unknown: Yeah.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: If I'm really honest, I think they're essential because if you're not listening, you're not hearing what is important to that person.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, you can sort out a pension, you can sort out an ICE, but why are they doing those things?
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: What's important to them?
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: What's the goal that they're trying to get to?
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you it's about dreaming, it's about envisaging that future, it's about is that for their children, is that for them going to uni, like you said, or or is it their retirement?
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: Is it planning a legacy?
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: There's always a why behind all of these things.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, if you're trying to explain to somebody that they need to start saving a little bit more into their pension, if you if you haven't worked out why they're doing it, or they haven't told you why they're doing it, they're just going to see that as another cost on a monthly basis coming out of their pot of money, which is always stretched.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: But if the if you know, if if they're thinking, right, well, I want to be able to retire early because I want to be able to spend time with my grandchildren, or I want to travel, we've always promised we're going to do this trip, and then you can envisage that and you understand their why, right.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: Well, if we up our contributions to X, we can shave this many years off.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: You can get on that trip or whatever.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: Right, okay, now you've got buy-in, now you're all connected to and you're all focused on those goals.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: Otherwise, it's just it's a pension, it's boring, it's black and white, it's just one of those things I've got to do.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then you don't pay in, and then you're going to miss that goal, and you're not going to achieve the dreams that you've worked so hard for, all because nobody really broke it down or helped you envisage that and and plan for it.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: So it's critical, critical to think, to hear, to listen and to hear what people are saying.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and without those skills, I I just think you're missing, you're missing what's important to do.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_02: So, do you think like for for people that may what and women that are watching this, may that be that they're in sort of back office roles at the moment, or whether that may be that they're not even currently in the industry and are interested in financial planning?
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think if you've got that skill set, you are, as we just touched on, you can hear and listen, you're empathetic.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think you know those are the kind of people that we need to be transitioning into the industry?
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, definitely, definitely.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: And when I think females are massively underrepresented in financial services.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know the figures, you probably know more when you're you're recruiting them.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: But I know certainly when I joined a few years back, I'd go to a conference.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: There's not very many, not very many ladies in the room, not very many women in the room, it's mainly men.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it is changing, and actually, when I see, we obviously haven't had face-to-face conferences for the last while, but uh the last ones that I'd have gone to, there were a lot younger people coming through, which is great.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot more training going on, a lot more recruitment within the industry to bring graduates in, which is great, because then you're getting people who are younger, who are passionate, who are interested in it.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: But to get more women in board, I think if you think you know 50% of the population is female, 50% is male.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: And if what we're seeing is that females want to interact with a female financial advisor, then by definition we need more female financial advisors, don't we?
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: Otherwise, they're not there to serve the needs of that clientele.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: And and like and we need younger people as well, because like you say, if you're 22, I mean you might not necessarily want an advisor who's 22, you might want somebody with a bit of a bit more experience, I don't know.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: But you certainly, I imagine, would want somebody who's who's not 70.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: You're going to want somebody who remembers, at least remembers what it's like to be young, who maybe has a benefit of a few more years ahead of you than go, oh yeah, I know what it was like when I was saving for a house and I had to make these sacrifices, and this is how I did it, or whatever.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: But you want people that that are like you.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: We we interact with people who are like us.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's who we connect with.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, we need younger people, we need better diversity in the industry.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's a given, I think.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's coming.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's coming.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_02: I completely agree.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_02: I think it is female financial advisors are outnumbered by their male counterparts at 10 to 1.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: So no way.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_02: It's quite an astounding figure.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_02: So things are obviously still getting a lot better in the industry.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_02: But I completely agree, you know, as we've just touched on, your whole market is based now on divorcee women, people that have gone through that experience, people that you relate to.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_02: And the the world is changing in the sense that women are holding more wealth generally, in terms of like there's more a higher percentage of women millionaires.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_02: Generally, you know, the whole gender paradigms are changing in regards to women taking control of their finances a lot earlier, especially like the new generation coming up, you know, definitely myself and my friends.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_02: There's such an emphasis for us to look after our finances and not place it on partners or anything to look after.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_02: How on earth can you unlock that market if you don't have the female financial planner representation that can connect with it?
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: So, do you feel like there should be more emphasis on firms to look at not just the gender profiles that we're talking about here, but as we just touched on, the age profiles of their financial planners?
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think it's coming.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: I know our network um have developed a good academy to train, you know, graduates um to bring on younger people.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we haven't really touched on this side, but if you think if the pot if the age of financial planners in general is much older, they're all retiring.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: We need a we've got succession planning issues here as well.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: What do we do with all the clients that those guys are looking after?
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: Because they're not all going to be the same age.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: So it's about planning, which we should be good at, but planning also, you know, for younger people to come into the practice so that then you've got that continuity for the clients.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I do always say to my clients, you know, what I'll ask, I always say if you've got any other questions, obviously, but one question, not all of them ask, is well, what happens if I fall under a bus or you know, I I die, or obviously if I'm older than them, what happens when I retire or or I die before them?
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: And it is all about succession planning, isn't it?
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: And making sure you've got young blood coming through.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's something we're really good at collective financial planning.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, my boss is brilliant, and we've we've I'm I'm definitely not the youngest.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: There are several people younger than me in the practice, and we've got new graduates on the team.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: He's always looking to bring on young blood, new ideas, and we'll mentor those those guys through the power planners onto onto becoming advisors so that they've got those skills, technical skills and analytical skills, as well as the people skills.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: And open work are really good at training, training those through the diploma and out the other side.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really important.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure all the other networks are doing something similar because yeah, you need the skills and you need that training and the opportunity, you need a firm that's willing to help you do that, don't you?
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_02: It sounds like collective financial planning really um uh shining the beacon forward because, especially as working on the recruitment side of things, I deal with lots of candidates that are really, you know, just because they're a younger age profile, you know, they've been power planners for a couple of years, they've got really good technical knowledge, they've got their level four.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of them are even creeping up onto chartered status, and they've so they're literally battering down the door, trying to find a trainee, financial plan, and opportunity, or a wealth management firm that will look at them, you know, under the age of 30.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_02: They find it really, really difficult.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_02: And the the feedback they often get is well, you know, we can't put you in front of our clients, or our clients aren't going to be receptive to someone of that age.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_02: So, do you think that's a bit of a counterproductive thought?
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I do, I do, because that's very short-sighted because actually people your age need financial advice, the same as people my age.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: And if you haven't got people in your practice that are younger that can empathise with younger people, I mean I get it, I guess somebody who's 70, 75 might find it a little bit difficult.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: But I I've got clients all the way up to age 80, 88, 89.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I can still empathize with them.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: I had my my parents aren't with me anymore, but obviously I had elderly parents, and you've just got to find a way to empathize with with the people on their journeys, haven't you?
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, no, I I I'm baffled as to why the opportunities aren't there unless we just there's just not enough financial planning firms in general.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there aren't enough advisors in the country.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe it's you know, maybe it is just there's just not enough opportunities there anyway for anybody.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's not a question of us all setting up on our own, new practices, new businesses springing up, don't you?
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but I think, you know, and you just touched on then like success succession planning and the whole question, well, what's gonna happen if I fall under a bus tomorrow or the worst, think about it.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_02: But I also think, you know, from my perspective, it's something really comforting about being able to work with a financial advisor who you know could potentially be there to work with your children or maybe your grandchildren.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_02: And then do trust and build this amazing relationship with this person because they become, you know, you can help people with their finances, their financial plan in future.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's such an important and crucial element.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_02: Money's one of the most important things to sort of everyone.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's really comforting and nice knowing that I can build an excellent relationship with someone, and then I can then pass that relationship on to my children, and I know they're gonna be really look well looked after, and their finances are gonna be really well looked after, the same way that I found a financial advisor that really looks after me.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: And that that's already happened for me because I'm already looking after the children of some of some of my clients, you know, young children, you know, like 18, 19, but um and also, you know, have had older clients and you know, now I'm looking after and the other way, because I've got clients who are my age and I'm now looking after their parents over their parents.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, and that's a simple, I guess at least if you've built a solid relationship with your client and they trust you, if they're willing to refer you either to friends or their children or parents or members of the family, you've done a tricky job there, haven't you?
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: Because for you to personally recommend someone else, reflect on your integrity.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: So if I refer somebody to an accountant and that accountant's rubbish, that's going to fall back on me, isn't it?
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: So if somebody's willing to recommend me to someone else, that means they've they've trust me, which is a huge responsibility, but a huge honour as well.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, and that's that does happen to us.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: Our business is built on referrals, so um, yeah, that that does happen, but it's important, I think it's important for the clients to, like you say, to know that we will be there.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: So when we we always hope for the best but plan for the worst.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: So we spend a lot of time looking at protection and will writing and and all of those financial planning basics, but they're there in place so that if the worst happens to that client, their children, their dependents, or the people that they love are looked after.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: And for them to know that that's there and that yes, they'll inherit their pension or yes, we've sorted out their will.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: But not only that, we're there to hold their hands and help them through that process as well.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: They know that they can pick up the phone and say, Oh gosh, mum's sadly passed away, what do I do with the pension?
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: Great, you can look after it, super.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's that's what it's all about, isn't it?
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's about creating a relationship and building trust for the whole family.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and as we just said, that the hot this whole conversation really is centered around that importance of those building those relationships and how using your own personal experiences and firms being proactive in having lots of different people that have gone through different experiences and are of different genders or ethnicities as well, and age profiles to really connect with all clients.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, from a firm's point of view, it's gonna make you more profitable, isn't it?
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_02: Because you're it's gonna allow you to unlock more markets than you probably would if you had five financial advisors that are all you know white British male over the age of 60.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, definitely.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you increase your reach that way.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, again, we're quite we're quite ethnic ethnically broad, which must uh which must help.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: Because some sectors of the community will only speak to you know their own culture, I guess, you know, and cultures are different, different cultures treat money differently.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: As the typical white British person, we're pretty rubbish at saving generally.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then there's other areas that really believe in houses, you know, that's they're not interested in pensions, they just want houses, but then fine, we can sort out biotelect mortgages, we can sort out that kind of stuff.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, it's about having the right people in place to meet the needs of all those different clients and matching the personalities so that you're putting the right person in place for that relationship.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_02: 100%.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_02: And those strong relationships then sort of boil down from the fact that you have someone that you can relate to, as we've touched on, you know, you've got someone that you can build that trust with and understands what you're going through to some degree or another.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_02: And we opened up, or I opened up the podcast by showing sort of what your LinkedIn bio reads.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, when you type in a financial planner and and you you get them all up, you're trying to find someone that you relate with and you specialise with.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_02: So from the onset, when you land onto your LinkedIn profile, you can see that that is what you specialise in.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_02: And we spoke about that you have been using LinkedIn a lot more proactively recently.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_02: But what was the reason for this?
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_02: There's so many different reasons why people use LinkedIn, but what made you sort of start honing in on it?
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_02: That was a really kind way of saying you're really rubbish at people.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_02: No, not at all.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_02: You've just been so cropping up on my feed all the time at the moment.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_02: So you're obviously doing something very well now more than anything else.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I would I was non-existent about eight months ago.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I hid from LinkedIn for many, many, many months, too frightened of it, wasn't it wasn't my bag.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I um over Christmas decided I really needed to do something because you know, COVID had hit and there's no networking events and all of that kind of stuff.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought that, you know, seize the opportunities or whatever.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I chose LinkedIn because it's professional, um, and then sought professional help from people who know their stuff because you don't know what you don't know, and I don't know about social media, so I found the people that do, and um, I jumped on primarily my main goal, really, if I'm honest, was to find other professional connections because as I was working with um divorcees, I'll get, oh, well, do you know a solicitor?
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: Or actually, I need to sort my will out.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: So, do you know a will writer, or I've got other clients who may be business owners, or do you know an accountant because of mine's just retired, or whatever.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: So it's about building a wider circle of professional connections.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: And whilst I have some locally, um I wanted in a similar way to what we were just saying, I wanted to have a wider network of those people so that I could match the personality of that accountant or wheel writer with the client because that all of my clients are different, and what works for you know a high-earning businessman might not work for a stay-at-home working, a stay-at-home mum who's got a little side hustle sort of thing.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I wanted to expand my connections.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's where I came on.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: At that point, it was not about me and my profile, it was just about reaching out and finding connections, and it just it mushroomed from there, really.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: Once I found the right help to set up my profile properly, and uh found a group of like-minded sort of um, I can't think of the word, savvy professional women, maybe.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, then yeah, I've got a really great tribe of women, and I've um we share really good ideas, and and then I've slowly become a little bit braver and then jumped on.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not quite as scared.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_01: My first sort of posts were type the post, press, send, run away and hide.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_01: And now I'm like, oh, I'll do it anyway.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so you come up on my feed a lot more.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of nose thinking, well, that's how we got in contact.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_02: I was seeing your posts on my LinkedIn in regards to sort of your specialisms, and I was thinking how unique and interesting that was.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_02: So, do you think, and this is the power of LinkedIn, does it allow you, you feel like to add value to other people the same way that you can take value from it?
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and like I say, I think at the beginning that's not really what I was thinking about, but what I realised was you know, in a way, this is sort of a mission of empowering women to take control of their finances.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_01: I know I'm aiming for divorcees, but it's not just divorcees, it come to me.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_01: And it's about breaking down barriers, breaking down conceptions that people have, misconceptions really, about financial services, and and being able to put information out there.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I've got zillions of ideas, I haven't had time to do, but even basic things about people don't know what age they can retire at.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_01: Even if you can put simple bits of information out there, it it helps somebody to start to plan, doesn't it?
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I've done little polls and I've done bits of information, and I've got um like uh five steps to help you start thinking about retirement, or seven steps to sort out your money after divorce, those kind of stuff.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: And if I can get bits of information out there for people, which means actually if they're too frightened to contact anybody, they've at least got a start, haven't they?
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they've got a bit of information they can make a start with, um, then that's that's a good thing.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm still starting on the financial education there, aren't I?
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'm getting a bit of understanding as well as breaking down those barriers because now they can see that I'm a real person and I'm I'm not sat in an office somewhere just behind a computer, you know.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'm person and I've got two kids and my life's crazy, like everybody else is and also you know, they can see I'm a woman and and uh and maybe that's what they're looking for.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it's it's all about visibility and yeah, breaking down barriers, creating that trust in a in a in a slow-growing kind of way, you know, get them to know me, get them to like me.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_02: Visibility breaking down barriers, yeah.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_02: I I really like those two words, a sort of description of it.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_02: From like, I guess you didn't mean for it to mushroom into this, but it has.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_02: Has it helped more?
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_02: And this you just touch on visibility and breaking down barriers.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_02: Has it allowed you think more women to contact you?
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_02: Have you seen an increase of women contacting you um via LinkedIn, sort of wanting your your advice?
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, definitely, definitely.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_01: I've I've made I've had connections with people that I would never have met without doing this because before I was, you know, locally based, and um we don't need to be with the power of of all this digital connection now, thanks to COVID in a way.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I've met people in Yorkshire and Devon and I don't know, Southampton and where's that place?
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: Suffolk, you know, all over the place.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't really matter where I am.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's much nicer to be able to sit down with a cup of tea and a slice of cake, but it's not always possible.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_01: And at least if we can meet over, you know, do a virtual cupper, they've been brilliant at just there's no pressure, just come along, see, see if I can help, and and and we'll take it from there.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, definitely I've reached people I wouldn't have reached before.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, not everybody's become clients, but I feel like at least I've helped somebody along a step a step along their journey.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: And it might be that I've signposted them to a divorce coach or to go back to their employer and ask a question or whatever it might be.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_01: But that's just as important, isn't it?
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_01: Because they haven't wasted money or my time and I've not wasted theirs, and that's that's just as important.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: You're filtering, yeah, filtering out what could be potentially loads of non-starters, but I've helped those people to go to the right places, and you never know.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes that might be enough for them, or they might go, Great, well, you couldn't actually help me, but I've got this friend and they're going through this, and could you help them?
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_01: So definitely.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_02: That's excellent.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_02: And it's all that's the and LinkedIn is such a powerful tool, you can add so much value.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I think I've had discussions with other people on the podcast about this, but it's all about you know giving and receiving, and it's an excellent platform for that.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I'd like to thank you, Nikki, for spending the time to speak to me this afternoon as part of the Financial Planner podcast.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's been an absolute pleasure to hear about your experiences and you discuss how financial planners can sort of work, build on their experience to build those really trusted relationships, have discussions about why the relationship building side is just important, if not even more, than the knowledge side of things and you know the ever going conversation of how we can and why it's important to have gender diversity, age diversity, and ethnic diversity within the industry.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you very much for joining me this afternoon, Nicolas.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Elena.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's been great.