Latest / Coaches Rising / 277 - Jeremy D. Johnson: Integral Futuring

Transcript

277 - Jeremy D. Johnson: Integral Futuring · Coaches Rising

• 0:00
  [UNKNOWN]: Thank you for watching.
• 0:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: welcome back this is the coaches rising podcast and I'm delighted to be joined again today by Jeremy Johnson who I've learned a lot from I really recommend his book seeing through the world and we're going to be exploring today how integral futureing can help us navigate the temporal complexity of the polychrysis of the metacrisis and restore a living relationship
• 0:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: to our future.
• 0:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: So some of the topics we're going to unpack today, the temporal nature of this metacrisis we find ourselves in, how we can restore our relationship to the future and tend to latent futures.
• 1:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we'll talk about the practice of weaving time amongst many other things.
• 1:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: So Jeremy is an author, as I mentioned, he wrote, seeing through the world, which is a great book,
• 1:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: He is the Managing Editor of Integral Leadership Review.
• 1:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: A podcaster, his mutations podcast, is excellent.
• 1:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: And he currently serves as the president for the International Gene Gebser Society.
• 1:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: So with all that being said, let's dive in.
• 1:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: Here's the podcast with Jeremy Johnson.
• 1:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: Jeremy, it's delightful to be with you again.
• 1:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: I've been really anticipating this conversation.
• 1:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: I've really appreciate it coming across your work.
• 1:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: And yes, I'm excited to share again like how you're thinking and your practices kind of
• 1:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: unfolded since we last spoke.
• 1:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know when that was actually four years ago, wasn't it?
• 1:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, something like that.
• 1:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: Three years, maybe three and a half it.
• 1:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: I've been in my own kind of weird time dilation.
• 2:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: We were just talking about it becoming a parent and moving and living in the mountains of Vermont.
• 2:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I feel like I'm in a different timeline myself.
• 2:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: So three and a half years probably great to be with you, Jill, picking right back up or we left off.
• 2:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, beautiful.
• 2:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: I thought about beginning by just inviting you to share it.
• 2:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: I really recommend people check out your recent podcasts as well, really, really good.
• 2:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: But there's just kind of start to talk about in-school futureing, and I know you have a program on that out coming out, and to talk about what that is, and why,
• 2:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: why it's important and the relationship, particularly why time, you know, is something you write about a lot, why that's an important element in all of this.
• 2:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, let's kind of paint the picture of like where we're at and this point in history really and what the invitation is.
• 3:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
• 3:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so it's an integral featuring that you know this book that I've been working on fragments of an integral future.
• 3:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, it's been kind of a long process.
• 3:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, last time we spoke, I was still kind of in the thick of it.
• 3:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: And this past year.
• 3:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I've really been sort of developing the final piece of the book, which is this concept of integral featuring and as you know, it draws a lot from the work of Jean Gapser and his work on ever president origin.
• 3:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: And after one of these sort of interesting, as folks may be familiar with already, maybe not, history of consciousness figures, right, he has sort of an interesting unique emphasis on time in his thinking on how our contemporary crisis, we call it the polychrysis or the metacrysis,
• 3:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: that one of the threads that ends up being a throughline is our relationship with time.
• 3:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: And for Gepster, he saw our relationship with time or you could call it our consciousness of time was undergoing this sort of dissolution and metamorphosis in the 20th century in the 19th century.
• 4:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of,
• 4:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: underlying theme of modernity is a sort of wrestling with the nature of time.
• 4:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: And Gets are not the only thinker to speak about this.
• 4:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think Berksson is another one who Gets are borrow some of that language from, you know, where he describes this sort of mechanical recalls spatialized time, clock time, is a sort of time that sort of becoming
• 4:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: I guess you could describe it as imploding under its own weight, right?
• 4:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's unleashing forces into the world that it actually can't master with the same kind of thinking.
• 4:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a kind of an intensity of time that's revving been the 20th century, and of course, becoming even more of a crisis in the 21st.
• 4:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: So for me, time, temporality, ends up being the sort of
• 4:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what a good, maybe a cipher is a good word for it, right?
• 4:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a sort of endless ciphering of our contemporary crisis with time, whether we're speaking about the climate crisis and the temporality of the climate crisis, which sort of entangles the past and the future and the present, it makes the present kind of
• 5:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: and laid in with the sense of both the growing, maybe guilt, folks who are like aware of the climate crisis and the sort of history of it, uses a fossil fuels.
• 5:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a drawing up of the past, right?
• 5:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: And literally in the sense of fossil fuels being the ancient dead of Gaia.
• 5:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: right ancient living beings which have become now fuel for the machines, but then also the sense that we're affecting the future and that the future is very present and transparent, right, the future.
• 5:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: kind of, a lot of climate scientists are talking about it as climate collapse, but there's words for it now in a sort of colloquial sense, right?
• 5:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: People call it Solostalgia.
• 6:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: This morning the future, or morning the present, that's that's receding, right?
• 6:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a present that's being lost in the process of being lost, and there is a kind of anticipatory morning towards that present as it's being lost
• 6:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: So we're already, there's a kind of climate melancholia, right?
• 6:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: Which is a temporal feeling is a structure of feeling and it has to do a time, both past and future.
• 6:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: So we're dealing with time, whether we're looking at it with the climate crisis, or we're looking at it more with technology and runaway forces that, you know,
• 6:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: the latest might be of artificial intelligence to the conditions of being a person moving through the modern world trying to survive.
• 6:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a capitalist temporality sense where we're always expected to be producing an online and transforming anything that we're doing from hobbies to whatever into something that's engaging the world.
• 7:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a kind of
• 7:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: intensity of time, that's not really a human friendly time that we're dealing with.
• 7:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm talking about negatives to kind of arrive at integral futureing, because for me, you know, the future often shows up, this is my understanding.
• 7:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: I draw it from like William Irwin Thompson, but very much is also in gaps or the future often shows up.
• 7:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: the sort of latent transformation that's kind of being worked through shows up in a negative sense as a kind of unconscious force that's sort of breaking into or breaking through or showing up as negative conditions in the present and integral featuring for me a sort of drawing up.
• 7:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: becoming cognizant of those conditions, becoming aware of them, becoming present with them enough so that they don't necessarily have to be negative or have to be destructive.
• 7:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Time can be something very transformative rather than just the time crisis.
• 7:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, morality is the nature of the climate crisis, the temporality, and the sense of entanglement with past and future can perhaps become, you know, the means of our transformation, perhaps redemption in a sense.
• 8:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: So anyway, an integral featuring has to do with this.
• 8:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: Becoming aware of the temporal nature of this crisis, really kind of leaning into it and asking, you know, what of this can become transformative, you know, how can we begin to work with this a bit more consciously, how can we begin to begin to?
• 8:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: gauge this in a transformative sense or in the sense of cultural metamorphosis, right?
• 8:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: And well, Gepsard didn't talk about integral featuring he certainly talked about the sense that not only the past being present and these sort of social conditions and histories, but also in sort of a metaphysical sense.
• 8:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: but the future's also present.
• 8:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: The future shapes us, right?
• 8:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: So there's a sense that and it's not a single linear future.
• 8:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a sense that the future is present in a virtual way and it kind of multiplicity.
• 8:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: And yes, there's a lot of negative futures that are hanging heavily, you know, maybe around our next and heavily in our hearts.
• 9:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: But there's also the sense that, you know, once you begin to really engage with that and look at the trouble, like stay with the trouble as her way says, the future can also become, you know, other futures become present.
• 9:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's other possibilities that open up and disclose themselves to us.
• 9:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so the last element here for integral featuring, for me anyway, is beginning to,
• 9:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: live such in the present and finding ways to be able to engage with that as a sort of personal practice as a social practice.
• 9:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: The threads of different, say, more integrative futures, more transformative futures in the present in our social conditions.
• 9:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, they're not just negative symptoms.
• 9:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: They are also sort of transformative elements that are in our present.
• 9:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: that we can kind of really begin to lean into and pick up on and make a part of our lives.
• 9:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: So for me, integral featuring is living the future and the present.
• 9:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: in the sense of becoming cognizant of how climate collapse is very, very present, sort of shining through time, a Shreka Horvacha, a creation philosopher described it as an apocalyptic x-ray, right?
• 10:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: So there's a sense that it's mutagenic, right?
• 10:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's sort of like, we're aware of the sort of imminent thing that we're kind of veering towards
• 10:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: So even though it's negative, it's forming our relationship with the future.
• 10:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: So if we're mutants, then let us begin to use these powers for something a bit more.
• 10:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: Opening, right?
• 10:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: Can the future become open again, rather than just foreclosed in a sort of negative story of catastrophe?
• 10:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: Hopefully that'll make sense.
• 10:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's beautiful.
• 10:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's, it's
• 10:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: I really love what you're sharing because I think, you know, I relate to this in my own life and many people I know where, you know, I'm sure everyone listening can really relate to this sense of, um, you know, the shift that occurred, where, um, it used to feel like,
• 11:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: things were just going to keep getting better and better, you know, from a kind of certain worldview, but that doesn't seem the case anymore, you know, like you've just really clearly articulated and, you know, there's kind of maybe a pessimism that can come in, maybe even a poch elliptic feeling.
• 11:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: But then the
• 11:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: But that feels very potent because for me, it's like, well, do I just then kind of hunker down and contract and kind of get down, you know, or,
• 11:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: Does it evoke some new way of being some different kind of response inside of me?
• 11:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: And, and in a sense, like, what does it invite me to examine that I have privileged in my life and valued?
• 12:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: And what might now be being evoked inside of me, a new, an orientation to a new,
• 12:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: do new modes of perception.
• 12:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: Let me just, and I'm saying a lot here, but it's like I wanna contextualize this in the field of like coaching work and you know, we've talked a lot about this self-improvement paradigm that we are, you know, it's been one of the modes in coaching and then there's being,
• 12:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I kind of, this unfolding paradigm emerging, which is based rooted in presence, less oriented to improving oneself into some imagined future, but actually living in the present meeting what's here fully.
• 12:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that as we do so, our experience and faults and new life comes in.
• 13:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: of October, it kind of feels like what you're pointing to with integral futureing.
• 13:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: So could you say a little bit more about
• 13:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: you know, contrasting, you know, this kind of integral, this fragments of an integral future, and the different modes that's inviting us into with, you know, the kind of perspective or modern mind, which, you know, is kind of our near, in a lineage.
• 13:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, beautifully stated.
• 13:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's there's so much there, Joel and what you just shared.
• 13:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: But to kind of tackle that first.
• 13:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think you're you're also speaking to the kind of cultural change and sort of bigger picture change, which I think is is quite radical and maybe understated by a lot of folk aging in this work about social transformation, which is, you know, in the negative sense, maybe.
• 14:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: what we're losing and the radical change in the 20th century folks like Bephoborardi and Mark Fisher talk about this and of course other thinkers talk about this as well.
• 14:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: But the faith in the future, right, our relationship with the with the perspective, future, a linear future, which has often been associated with progress or improvement.
• 14:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: or more utopian or advancing and maturing in some way or complexifying.
• 14:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: The future always meant something more greater.
• 14:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: That relationship with the future is what has fundamentally changed, I think, in just the past, significantly, at least in the past 20, 25 years, our relationship with the future are faith in that kind of future, that mythology of time and progress is really kind of dissolved.
• 14:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: too, the sense of mourning, or composting maternity, right?
• 15:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's sort of proclamations of the end of maternity in this sense, right?
• 15:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: Because maternity has relied upon this interesting relationship with time, a more linear time.
• 15:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: I like Yom Chohan's description of it.
• 15:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: He calls it Revolutionary
• 15:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: a useful way of talking about it because it names the energy of it and the possibility linear time time as progress, which really kind of ramped up in the late 18th century in the sense of, you know, we had the industrial revolution occurring right along the social revolutions that were occurring in, say, the United States or France, right?
• 15:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: There was an overthrowing of the old order of the old regime, right, and a moving into a sense
• 15:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: reshaping the world, directing the world towards a better future.
• 15:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: But the problem with that, any have written about and talked about, is the future as progress was claimed in exchange for the past, right?
• 16:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: There was a rejecting of the past.
• 16:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: And for gaps, of course, in and books and in other thinkers, we can't reject the past.
• 16:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: The past has ever present.
• 16:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: The past has alive.
• 16:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: History has not only unfinished business, but it always has a kind of entangled relationship with the present.
• 16:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: If we're doing more of a kind of magic mythic approach, we could say, you know,
• 16:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: just sort of ancestral relationship in the present with us in the present, right?
• 16:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: So the past is important.
• 16:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: So what happens when we begin to overthrow this past?
• 16:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, the kind of temporality that modernity has relied on has pretty much remained abstract time, you know, clock time in that sense, right?
• 16:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it rejects this task of integrating the past and bringing it into relationship with the new.
• 16:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: We only want the new for the sake of the new.
• 16:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's the problem, right?
• 16:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: necessarily for the sake of the future, but as a rupture against the past and the present alike, it doesn't want to be present, it wants to get ahead, it wants to move forward, it wants to even escape time and space.
• 17:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's this wonderful line from a 19th century in Cyclopedia, where the author of this passage in the Encyclopedia is talking about progress and he associates it with
• 17:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, basically the triumph, the triumphant seam engine or triumphant engine wagon or something along those lines.
• 17:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: And he describes it as sort of moving so quickly, moving history forward, so fast that it will eventually escape space and time.
• 17:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a sort of transcendental quality to this, right?
• 17:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: So there's this rupture against both past and present that majority, linear time really emphasizes.
• 17:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: a relationship between past and futhing, that's actually important, and vital, right?
• 18:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: And subject to these many complex interweavings and folds and interrelationships, because it elevates absence, right, abstraction over presence, it can have a relationship with time in this truer sense.
• 18:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: And this is where I borrow, like Shakespeare's line of time out of joint, right?
• 18:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think modern time is very much a time out of joint, a time of rupture.
• 18:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: And therefore, it's a time out of relation, right?
• 18:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: Injury of featuring, or integral time, as maybe Gepster would describe, is a call to enter back into relationship with time and the present, and to do a much more difficult work, which is not just severing the past for the sake of the new, but to bring the new and the past into relation, right,
• 18:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: a heterogenous composite, not a homogenous one, a mixing and an intermit, folds and folds and becomes the future, right?
• 19:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think I'll talk about that a lot throughout my book and for the upcoming course on, on integral featuring that when we're talking about featuring in this sense is a very different relationship with time.
• 19:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's not the same kind of modern relationship with
• 19:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: the future, the future as progress.
• 19:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's not a faith in the future, but it is a regarding of the future.
• 19:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a relation with the future, and acting for the sake of, because we're in relation with coming with the people who are to
• 19:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: be living in the next generations, those who will have lived.
• 19:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a much more concretizing drawing into the present kind of relationship, a recognition that we have to be presence to be in a generative relationship with the future.
• 19:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: We can't simply be running ahead to escape the past or to sever the past.
• 20:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: for not present, then we don't actually have a future, and we don't have a past either.
• 20:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think we've kind of ended up there because of, you know, again, past 200 years, culminating in this crisis where the present has sort of evaporated or shrunk to this little pinpoint moment, right?
• 20:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: This little pointless now, right?
• 20:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: Which is not really Gepsers ever present, right?
• 20:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: Is this sort of digital now that collapses
• 20:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: and asked us to be kind of in this relentless and frenetic instant moment, right, replaced by the next and by the next and by the next.
• 20:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think Mark Fisher describes it as a frenzied rush, right?
• 20:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: But as a frenzied rush to nowhere, there's a sense of stasis in it.
• 20:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think that this is because of this fundamental relationship with time that maternity has been attempting to unleash upon the world and master,
• 21:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: to come back around and just wrap up, right, a relationship with the past and the future has more to do with this integral futureing, a relational time, which helps us tens the 10 to the wounds of history and it opens up the future again.
• 21:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: Sorry, Joel, that was a lot, but that's the kind of core nugget of what I'm working with in the book.
• 21:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 21:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: Nice.
• 21:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: As I hear you speak about it, you know, as you contrast the two, it's like
• 21:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: the rupture from time or this pin point of time, this sense of disconnection from the present moment and from our past and our future.
• 21:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like I get a sense of, and the abstraction, the abstraction from the present moment,
• 21:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: I get a sense of how that can limit our perception.
• 22:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: It can limit our connectedness, our interconnectedness, our ability to collaborate, to create what we perceive, what we value, and I'm just wondering for you, what do you think becomes possible?
• 22:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: When we shift out of that into, you know, this place where we bring the past and the present into a composite in, in presence, what do you think comes online when we start to do that?
• 22:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: Excellent question.
• 22:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, in some ways, A.A.
• 22:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: I have more hesitation about what that is in terms of content, that the way I ended the manuscript was to at least kind of give some examples that I sense.
• 23:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: are a part of that future, or a part of that possible future.
• 23:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: But one of the lines that I really love from the Zapatista is their vision for a planetary future, a planetary community, and they describe it as a world in which many worlds fit.
• 23:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a sense of pluralism there, but there's also a sense of the whole.
• 23:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I think part of our work right now in sort of tending to these latent futures
• 23:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: is maybe poetically summarized by Anna Singh's, maybe infamous or famous line of a, making a life in the ruins in this poetic description of what we're doing here.
• 23:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, with integral featuring, there's an element where we're both taking in the future as the ending of a certain way of thinking a certain world of view.
• 23:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: And working with what that world view is least behind, right?
• 24:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: or running rampant today, but also the possibilities that those fragments hold debris and ruins for new life, to rework the elements that are in the present, the elements that are showing up amidst catastrophe and rework them in such a way that they find new life.
• 24:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: They find new possibilities by bringing things into different relationship.
• 24:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I think that's really the work, you know, the, the new relationship with time and the future has a kind of, I'm borrowing a literary genre from here, um, let me have read about it and the chapters I sent you, but Solvage Punk is the term and it sort of comes after,
• 24:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think it became, it came out before solar punk and it sort of after cyber punk and whatever, there's, there's elements of both in salvage punk, but I really like the term because it's very ecological, right?
• 25:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's, it's really being with
• 25:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: contents of the present, the elements and agencies, the fragments, you know, the, the rubble in the ruin of modernity and saying like, okay, well, even here, there's life, you know, life and agencies are seeking connection and seeking relation.
• 25:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: So for the integral futurist, perhaps we could call them, I think their function is very much like if we take it from biology, the construction, there are a constructor or steward of ecological niches, right?
• 25:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: Each construction going on, where the role is really to bring things into new relation, bring different elements into new relation with each other.
• 25:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: In such a way that those relationships become, you know,
• 25:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: the mending of the wounds of modernity or the possibility for different modernities to flourish, different ways of approaching science and perhaps in a way that sort of more local-based or more planetary or more animist, you know, whoa.
• 26:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: hybridizations we can imagine, that's the work we need to be tending to now.
• 26:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: We have to be like niche constructors or moving from from from the ecological maybe to the more cultural, right, the artist, you know, who's always kind of bringing things into novel relation and recognizing or perceiving the world in an aesthetic sense.
• 26:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, what elements and colors and forms and sounds can be made and remade and brought together in such a way that's something truly new, you know, in the sense of, you know, maybe, and a kind of ineffable way, where becoming, right, the sort of creative process itself feels present.
• 26:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a kind of spirituality, I think, with contemporary art.
• 26:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: that has retained an element, you know, in the secular world of the spiritual, right, of almost the religious imagination, that the creation of the new.
• 27:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: So we have to also become a bit like artists, William Aron Thompson described it as the brick allure.
• 27:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: Right, similar idea, right, of bringing different elements into relationship and seeing patterns and music amidst the noise of the present.
• 27:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: And we have a lot of noise in our present right now.
• 27:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's an understatement.
• 27:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's difficult work.
• 27:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: We have to have the sensitivity of the artist as integral featuring as a practice.
• 27:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: We have to hone that sensitivity because there's a lot of noise today.
• 27:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: So a lot of this is sort of attuning
• 27:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: And these conditions in bringing these elements, agencies, movements, you know, social organizations, works of art, right, and co-hearing a kind of interrelationship between them.
• 27:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe one last metaphor, you know, we can move from the ecological to the artistic and now maybe to the animistic, right, is the medicine bundle, right, I think.
• 28:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: Ursula K. Liguin has a great description of the medicine bundle that carries your bag and her short little essay.
• 28:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: theory of fiction where she describes or reinvisions the novel, not as a kind of linear process where you move through a plot in a linear sense, but as a kind of bundle of interrelationships that are in tension with each other, that are in synergy with each other and everything in between, but it's the kind of whole bundling itself, right?
• 28:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: The whole complex bundling itself that describes the novel,
• 28:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: bringing things into transformative relationship in such a way that the reader is transformed perhaps and that the thing itself has a life of its own, right?
• 28:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: So all of these things I think have to do with this sort of ecological way of thinking, bringing things into relation, working with interrelationships and tensions and opposites,
• 28:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: working with noise so as to attune to the music, you know, that's that's amidst that noise.
• 29:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then maybe, you know, the last element too is, is, you know, working with, uh,
• 29:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: the ruins, right, making a life and transforming catastrophe into possibility.
• 29:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: And there's a lot of ways we can do that, I think, both personally and socially.
• 29:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: And there's a lot of ways that we can say, well, okay, how do we imagine this sort of turning towards the integral future or integral mutation?
• 29:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: What does it look like to have a civilization or a culture that has a different
• 29:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: And those are other themes, but that kind of guess, I guess, sort of down other rabbit holes, a long interaction, right, about, okay, well, what are some of the themes and where the thread's going and, you know, how do we live more concretely and in the present.
• 29:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: But it's a messy process.
• 29:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's more about the process itself, rather than kind of landing in some new reality.
• 30:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're already in that reality here, right?
• 30:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: If we can't do it here, we can't do it anywhere, if that makes sense.
• 30:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and it was funny because just you brought that up at the end, but I was just sat with the sense of, um,
• 30:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, that we need to experiment and, you know, maybe step outside of our, the pressure for things to immediately make sense or to immediately have a use to them.
• 30:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, to be in that kind of, that kind of artistic sensibility or that ecological,
• 30:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: kind of arena where, you know, there's an it's organic and it's messy and, you know, things emerge through these connections, you've articulated that they're unexpected, you know, and but there's a certain frequency to them, you know, and I think that's what I would love to
• 31:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it's a beautiful imitation you're making, are there, and you're already probably naming some of them, you know, artists out there, or, you know, maybe I don't know if it's like ecological thinkers, or
• 31:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: But people out there who you feel you are learning from or you see, they are kind of experimenting in this way.
• 31:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: And there's a certain transmission through their work.
• 31:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's a say briefly with that.
• 31:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, there are so many folks that I think are, again, in the sense of the title of the fragments of this integral future, featuring, in so many of our overlapping communities, integral folks, metamodern folks,
• 32:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: I really appreciate Nora Bateson's work with warm data labs and just her writing and insights on this.
• 32:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think she's very much articulating.
• 32:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of resonance with what I'm talking about and what I've been writing about and what I see in her work.
• 32:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I think it's it's
• 32:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: common in a certain sense, in which is wonderful.
• 32:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a sense that there's a strong, my serial web that's growing and the earth is becoming very ficcund.
• 32:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: And a lot of this stuff is still very much sort of underneath the surface of culture.
• 32:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's this over culture.
• 32:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then I think there's a lot of folks doing the work on the ground.
• 32:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's different directions.
• 32:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: I talk about it in the closing chapter of the book, but
• 32:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's just sort of thematically, you know, this, for me anyway, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the new relationship with time is being comfortable with reversal and not seeing reversal as regression, right, moving and the unfolding of the past and the present and weaving it all together in in novel ways, you know, this, this has to do with, you know, a general sense for many in the West, but I think outside of, um,
• 33:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: the Western context to everybody who's had to deal with globalization and colonization and modernization, which is sort of a shared challenge now for better or worse.
• 33:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: But the wrestling with our sense of belonging with the earth, with traditions, with histories and ancestors, there's an uprootedness
• 33:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: which is both the poison and the gift right that I think at a personal level, many, many people are working with and you know, this sort of move back towards reclaiming or re-envisioning tradition, right, trying at the same time.
• 33:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think, you know, there's a lot of deep futureing work happening there.
• 34:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe I can bring up like this apatista.
• 34:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: As another example, because I see in their articulations of their political project, where they're mixing, you know, coming from a deep indigeneity, a rootedness with place, a deep sense of indigenous temporality in the sense of rhythmicity and, let's say,
• 34:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: a temporality of place.
• 34:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's very much there, but they're also weaving in elements of modernity, you know, the sort of more radical and emancipatory aspirations of the modern project.
• 34:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: And they're weaving in this, as they're even talking about in their own way, a new relationship with the future, which they see, you know, the modern's really kind of failing to do, the modern relationship with time failing to do.
• 34:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, I think there's a lot of interesting work happening there where this kind of zigzag movement, right, where the future becomes an element of the past and traditions are reimagined or roots are kind of reenvisioned and transformed.
• 35:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: That sort of a general cultural sense that I think might apply to many different projects and contexts and communities.
• 35:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: on the work of Daniel Lopatin or O'Neill Tricks Point, O'Pien, who maybe not every individual would appreciate the kind of electronic music aesthetically, but just cut out the necessary.
• 35:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, Daniel Lopatin or O'Neill Tricks Point never, O'Pien, by sure hand.
• 35:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: I go right about him at length because his own kind of thinking about his artistic process is very much kind of what I'm describing here, right, this sort of exploding the
• 36:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: and elements of the present, seeking, you know, seeing the debris in the ruin, like commercials from the 1990s and nostalgia, right?
• 36:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: This yearning for the past, which is an intensely cultural phenomenon in the past decade, past 15 years or so, he's working with this kind of yearning for the past, working and sifting through the debris,
• 36:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: And putting them together in such a way that the future begins, there's a featuring sound that kind of opens up in his creative expression that I feel is very much there.
• 36:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I see him kind of doing this interesting zigzag, right?
• 36:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're again, the future has has to do with the past.
• 36:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, you know, again, to kind of touch back on, um, this not just as a participant, my own Mexican heritage, uh, I talk about this in, in the writing and maybe I've mentioned it before, but
• 37:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: Part of the creation myth for the Aztecs is that the gods before they created the first people they had to go down into the underworld where they gathered up the bones of the ancestors who were already there somehow and brought them back up to the surface and use those bones to create the first people.
• 37:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: So there's this idea of going down or reversal or going to the roots, right, drawing up an ever present past, right?
• 37:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: that past to transform it, to transform the bones of the ancestors into the bodies of the future, bodies of people, right?
• 37:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: So there's a sense of this movement of reversal is sort of the nature of transformation.
• 37:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: So we have to become comfortable with perceiving time, elements of time.
• 38:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm using artistic elements here.
• 38:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: Let's just say sampling, you know, audio tracks from the past and
• 38:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: And mixing them with the present and in that mixture and into mixture, the future starts to sort of leak through a shine through, in a way.
• 38:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: So that's the kind of the signature I'm looking I look for anyway in artistic expression and an opian is one example, right, I think there's
• 38:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: many different kind of little micro examples happening all over the place and some some great writing kind of getting into that sort of that the work of nostalgia artists right that are doing more than nostalgia
• 38:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: doing something much more interesting where they're bringing the pass back.
• 38:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: But in doing so, they're not just looking backward.
• 38:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're working with time in a different way.
• 38:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: They have a different fundamentally different relationship with time, which is sort of taking root in us.
• 38:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's a bit hard.
• 38:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: we're already mutants again in that sense, right?
• 39:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: That digital artists are playing with time as if it was a kind of medium that was plastic and malleable, right?
• 39:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're ecological in the sense of weaving different elements of past and presence.
• 39:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: That mixing, again, the future starts to show up.
• 39:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: Do you think one could do that?
• 39:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because there's a really great examples and of people taking things from culture and bringing it into the present.
• 39:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: And wondering whether individually that process might also be taking place on some level,
• 39:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I think of Cynthia Bergeau, and I might be actually kind of getting into the weeds here, but it's kind of, and I forgot on the phrase that she uses now, actually, when she talks about an imaginal perception, there's a kind of like,
• 40:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: kind of perception of how events all fit together from the past and the future.
• 40:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm just wondering, you know, in our own lives, if we might kind of tune into, I've been thinking about my past and certain events recently.
• 40:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's almost as if they break forth memories, break forth into my awareness,
• 40:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they connect me to the sense of who I'm becoming, as if there's unlocking some sense of being called into the future.
• 40:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: So there's a kind of spherical, not a linear process.
• 40:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: It has an alchemical feel to it.
• 40:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: And an kind of felt sense of,
• 41:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: um, luminosity or revelation to it, a freshness, kind of breaking through.
• 41:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: Um, so I'm just kind of speaking now, actually, this is just coming to me through our conversation, but there's a kind of, um, it's funny enough, um, almost, almost like an artistry to it, um, like I found myself,
• 41:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: becoming interested in almost like a kind of cross-paradomatic cross-disciplinary sensibility whereby many different aesthetic
• 41:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: elements suddenly take on new meaning and become fuel for continuing evolution.
• 41:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have this many sense, but yeah, you're speaking music to my ears here, beautifully spoken, Joel.
• 42:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think in the most personal of ways, this is a practice that we can implement in our most intimate inner work, right?
• 42:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think maybe one example, I could share as well, right?
• 42:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was doing some journaling work and I go back and forth between analog and digital, but the nice thing about for me anyway, for the analog work, right, is that I cracked open
• 42:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: a notebook that I had started three years ago or so, and it was just something about the sinker knee of the timing, the subject matter that was present in this notebook on the sort of the last few pages I had been working on it and it left it.
• 42:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: uh, was very much kind of present in that day, uh, just sort of by happenstance, um, I had been mulling it over again.
• 42:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, and I had the sort of very interesting moment of, of feeling myself kind of folds time, right, that the past really coming forward, um, into the present.
• 43:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: In a way where, you know, it felt not just like, um, coincidence, um, and maybe not just synchronicity either, but but a sense of living relationship, right?
• 43:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, there was a relation here.
• 43:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: And this is why I go to images of the rhizome and the root you mentioned in the Aburjou.
• 43:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think she calls it a marginal time.
• 43:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's that sense of interrelationship, right?
• 43:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: A true living interrelationship and a personal way with our own memory and history.
• 43:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: particularly important or significant moments or even ones that don't seem significant until later on right and then we kind of see we have a sense of being through and making those connections and you know later on years ahead you know years forward we look back and we start to kind of
• 43:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: see how these threads were interweaving as if they're again like a root system going to growing underneath us and only coming to the surface later in a sense of latency.
• 44:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think for us, you know, there's a personal sense that time is a sort of integrative or transparent interrelationship, right?
• 44:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's living connections between
• 44:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: past and future for our own sort of personal growth and transformation and also for our own kind of maybe to bring in more of a Jungian sense.
• 44:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's this sort of circumnavigating of the self, right?
• 44:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: As we turn and return to particular themes that show up in our life, right?
• 44:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: And we start to see the relationship between these moments is something that's significant and we benefit from this work of making those connections.
• 44:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, there's a shining through of the
• 44:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: sort of emerges or appears between these particular moments of insight on a experience that give us a wider glimpse of what it means to be a self right, to be a person, right, perhaps a glimpse of the soul.
• 45:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm thinking like of course of like Proust's right and his interest in memory.
• 45:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: Gets are also really loved Proust and then it speaks very highly of his work, right, where he's not just about
• 45:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: We've been talking about here like there's a sense of working with the past to become the future, right?
• 45:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: The proofs worked with memory and that became his sort of means for achieving this open relational time.
• 45:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of interesting lines that gaps or quotes from from proofs, you know, talking about
• 45:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: how he describes it, that life is always forging and gathering itself into these thicker and denser webs of interconnection, right?
• 45:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: That his work is sort of maybe an extension of that, right?
• 45:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: His work on nostalgia or memory, right?
• 45:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: Proust's satellite, a very sensorial experience that sort of explodes into the present, a memory from his childhood sort of erupting into the present.
• 46:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's the kind of work I think that we can we can do at a personal level right so journaling I think is a great way to do that, but I think even just sort of affirming this right as a you know time as as a relational time hat.
• 46:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: relational quality where those living interrelationships can be worked with and reworked with and are meant to be, you know, they're not just sort of static and you're not just kind of finding a scaffolding underneath the surface of your consciousness.
• 46:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, helping us transform, right, our relationship with that history, transforming that history itself because it's still here, it's still alive with us, right?
• 47:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: So there, yeah, there's a sense of, um, a creative relationship with time, whether it's past or future.
• 47:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's very much something that we can do in our own lives as a sort of practice of integral featuring.
• 47:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: could you say something about weird time as well?
• 47:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because that's interesting that like I found myself saying to someone recently and this funny because I went to art school and this is where I heard this phrase.
• 47:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: It was this guy and he said when the going gets weird, the weird get going and it just
• 47:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: always stayed with me.
• 47:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, yeah, that is, that's how I feel, and you know, it wasn't, he wasn't like talking about silly, you know, like being goofy or silly, although that could be part of being weird, I guess, but it was like, you know, that when things kind of break,
• 48:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: things kind of alter and disrupt, you know, it kind of evokes a certain mode of being which can kind of
• 48:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: a line with that can kind of tap into it and there's a generative potential rather than being kind of weirded out and like trying to get back to some sanitized place.
• 48:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I just, I don't know, when you, I hadn't read by where you talked about what weird time was to you.
• 48:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it might mean something very different to what I'm pointing to.
• 48:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: weirding as a term has been really kind of taking off maybe in no small part to my friends over at the the weird studies podcast to have Martell and Phil Ford.
• 48:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: But a weird time for me, I refer to it in my writing at least as maybe some of the best work contemporary examples other than the climate crisis, which continues to be weird.
• 49:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: In the sense that there's a subversion of expectations, there's a disruption of normative patterns, right?
• 49:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, what temperature spring is going to be, how much rain we're going to receive in one season or another, that there's there's a subversion in that set, well that's kind of getting disrupted.
• 49:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then of course there's this,
• 49:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, shared sense of, again, that the past and the future kind of leaning heavily into into the present, Andrea's mom's line that's, you know, that now more than ever we're inhabiting a kind of temporal structure of feeling where everything's being drawn into the whole of time, right?
• 49:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that the air is heavy with time.
• 49:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, there's all
• 49:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: weird stuff, but another element might be like the recent pandemic during lockdown and everything else.
• 50:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: I found a lot of people describing a kind of weird time where the structure of productivity is completely upended and not only are we're focusing at home, but there was also the sense of blurring of clock time, right?
• 50:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think there was a guardian article where
• 50:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: clock time anymore.
• 50:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: We live in a time soup, right, for the days, the blur and folks began to sort of notice plants growing in their window cells or lunar cycles, right, because everyone was sort of stuck and forced to slow down a little bit.
• 50:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: So there's this weirding of clock time that I think it continues to be multiple facets, you know.
• 50:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: either a daily occurrence or an annual occurrence where that structure predictable abstract structure of time and our scale continues to be subverted.
• 50:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I think there's a power in this T-right.
• 51:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a, as you're saying, there's a transformative element in this, in the sense that,
• 51:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: a quality to subversion or disruption or weirding where we hesitate for a moment.
• 51:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: And in that moment of hesitation, the world is able to reveal itself to us a new, right, aspect of the world reveals itself a different aspect of objects or phenomena reveal themselves to us with a new face.
• 51:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: And we need that occasionally, this is sort of
• 51:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: living through the world.
• 51:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: The new can only really show up when we don't force the world to be as high-dicker describes, ready at hand for us as a tool, like turning on a light switch, right?
• 51:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: When something doesn't behave as it predictably should, when clock time doesn't tick,
• 51:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: and mechanically, as we were expecting it to, they're in lies, the possibility for the future, right?
• 52:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're in lies, the opening of time, because now the new is present.
• 52:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: Now something can become, right?
• 52:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: And-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and-and
• 52:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: everything has kind of cleared the way for a different relationship, a different kind of possibility to be present.
• 52:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: So hesitation, for me, you know, again, Debarra from Berkson is this very much a kind of becoming present with the world.
• 52:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: That gaps are called, it presents sheading, right?
• 52:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: The present really kind of becoming conscious, right?
• 52:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: The only thing we can really do that is to really see the world.
• 52:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: And a truly creative sense, which is the world is full of possibility and contingency, but it's also full of metamorphosis, right?
• 52:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's really in these moments where our expectations are rationalizations, our sort of cultural
• 52:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: overcoding of the world is disrupted.
• 52:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think civilization wide, we're kind of undergoing that right now, where Gaia is not as no longer, behaving according to expectations, and nor are control, right?
• 53:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: So maybe that speaks to what you're talking about with weirding, right?
• 53:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: Weirding and hesitation, I think the kind of go hand in hand here, where
• 53:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're, yeah, the, the, the, the, I would call it gaps or calls at the planum, right, but there's a sense of overflow of meeting and possible in the present and the forms in the present, including ourselves reveals itself for maybe a fleeting moment, but in that moment, you know, that changes us forever, that that transform my transform an entire culture, let alone an individual, it, it brings forth possibility.
• 53:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: Do you, I mean in a sense like this conversation as an invitation, I think, into a certain mode of being, and I'm thinking of, again, how I mentioned, you know, that kind of unfolding presence-based approaches in coaching and transformational work, which
• 54:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: you know, step away from like this notion of improvement and success.
• 54:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I think they're more in this realm of unfoldment.
• 54:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, bye, bye.
• 54:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: letting go of our somewhat more egoic need to control where things go and spatialize, you know, in the way you've described earlier, spatialize our development as if we can corralate, you know, it kind of down some kind of like a track that we've predetermined.
• 54:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: And instead, you know, there's
• 54:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: kind of opening with as presence to this moment to how life wants to unfold through us, you know, and it's a kind of felt sense as a vibrational quality and a liveness that we tune into and it's, you know, sometimes unexpected and unbidden and, you know, to kind of, it's actually about
• 55:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: So this is a practice I've found to be very, I don't know, life-giving and enjoyable.
• 55:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, connects to when I was making art and when I was DJing, there's a similar sensibility.
• 55:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: Are there, you know, practices, you've actually mentioned journaling and there's, you know, if you've alluded to many artists and practices and a sense, but I'm just wondering if there,
• 55:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: others that you think are a waste to open into this.
• 55:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, to what wants to come through.
• 56:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: Gosh, yeah, I think I'm thinking of individual who, we both know, a springcheng's work is great in this sense, right?
• 56:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: The along a similar alliance, right?
• 56:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: Doing this work of working with the tensions.
• 56:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: the irresolvable tensions, I think this is a work that all of us can wrestle with in different ways.
• 56:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: But those tensions of the secular world, the sense of growth and improvement and development, not being a linear process, right, that sometimes, again, to sort of reiterate going to
• 56:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: Ursula K. Lagoon refers to in one of her essay, Porcupine from the, the Krination, where Porcupine kind of moves backwards and forwards.
• 57:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: They, they step back to look forward into a crevice to kind of move towards the future.
• 57:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: So there's a sense of negotiating the many layers of, of self, right?
• 57:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: The self of tradition and the self of,
• 57:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: traditional roots with the south of modernity.
• 57:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: And if our expectation is that we're kind of a predictable, stable trajectory for our becoming, I think that that definitely needs to be subverted.
• 57:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: We need different
• 57:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is something spring and I have a conversation with about recently, right?
• 57:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: We need sort of a different image of what it means to become, you know, to be a human being, I think, is always sort of walking this path of this zigzag and the spiral, right?
• 57:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: Or return and return to element, who we were before.
• 58:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: which in some sense might, you know, the future might look like bringing those elements forward and reenliving them from new perspectives and regenerating them or reengaging them in new ways.
• 58:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't necessarily mean marching ahead, right?
• 58:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: It might also mean kind of growing down, right, or bringing the roots up to offer new explorations or new fruit, right?
• 58:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: um, becoming as a weaving of past and present, right?
• 58:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think I'm kind of coming back around to that same sort of theme, right?
• 58:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, that, um, when we talk about development or adult development or personal development, I think our modelings can sometimes obscure the actual dynamic process that the shape of time is something much more complex and interrelated.
• 59:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: the time, right?
• 59:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: But to me, that this sort of brings forward this sort of necessary project of, you know, for those who are doing this kind of work, can we have different models, right?
• 59:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, maybe it's not sufficient to say the map is not the territory in that sense, but to transform the map, right?
• 59:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: So that the map is is faithful, right?
• 59:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's to the phenomena, that it that it that it saves the appearances, right?
• 59:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: Of of ourselves in the world, and
• 59:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: reflects those shapes of time, right, those, it's between past and future and our own becoming.
• 59:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, so I think, you know, again, in our own kind of personal interrogation here, right, the sense that the way we move through time and it doesn't necessarily mean we have to throw away, you know,
• 59:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: the possibility of, you know, I want to transform.
• 59:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: I want to heal.
• 59:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: I want to, you know, there's a sense of becoming something greater.
• 59:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a sense of transcendence or the transcendental that's not necessarily something.
• 1:00:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: But our relationship with it might need to be more process oriented and open-ended and the maps and the models themselves might need to reflect that as well.
• 1:00:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: I keep coming back to this apatista because the ended up kind of unexpectedly kind of shining through it, my research at the end of the book and they have this one more.
• 1:00:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: excellent kind of example for them is like how do we know what is this future featuring look like?
• 1:00:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I think this applies sort of personally for us in terms of development and personal development, right?
• 1:00:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know we go towards planetary futures not by an advanced forward but simply by walking, right?
• 1:00:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: And they use the example of walking
• 1:00:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: Because they say, you know, the path doesn't follow a straight or predetermined line when you're walking in relationship with place, you know, over a particular topology or mountain or river, you know, alongside a river.
• 1:00:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's winding, right, like walking right the path is never going to follow the linear, but it's going to move with the landscape, right, it's going to go backwards and forwards or up and down, right, and it's made out of many kind of questions and doubts and.
• 1:01:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, each of those kind of inquiries have to show up with each step, right?
• 1:01:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's not laid out before us, but it does arise with us moving through the process, right?
• 1:01:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's something we're in relationship with, again, the future, even as a sort of an if it's an anticipatory desire for transformation, it's something we have to be in process and in real, and it's found through communicating with that process in dialogue, right?
• 1:01:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: Remaining in the sort of ecological middle with it, so we don't know what it's going to
• 1:01:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: but we can compose with it.
• 1:01:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: We can compose the shape of it as we move through it, right, and with it.
• 1:01:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I suppose maybe that's my emerging answer to this question and like how do we kind of reenvision these models?
• 1:01:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think we need more process-oriented ways of thinking about our own
• 1:02:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: of anticipatory desire, right, this sense of moving towards what we may become.
• 1:02:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: But it's a becoming with, right, and we have to kind of walk it step by step in this deeper, undulating process.
• 1:02:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: Hopefully that makes sense.
• 1:02:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's like, for me, the sense of desire,
• 1:02:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: and longing I have that I can project on a future and that's fine but it's a place to live from almost like it's this sensibility and as I hear you speak it's like I hear again I just
• 1:02:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: And in my own life, there's often this sense of, oh my, you know, I've incurred in inverted commas, my coaching, my development, personal development work, should always trend towards more clarity, more knowing, you know, being clear on the path, taking the next step, knowing exactly where I'm going, getting more, becoming more, becoming better,
• 1:03:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: and actually how when you look back, that you just see how non-linear
• 1:03:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: the whole process is and there's a big mystery to it and how, you know, the things come forth and bid in and unexpectedly and sometimes rapidly and other times not and that's beautiful.
• 1:03:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I hear when you talk about this apatista, that's what I'm that I'm kind of tuning into.
• 1:03:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't know if there's anything else you want to name in our conversation, Jeremy, that we haven't spoken about, as we come towards the end of our time.
• 1:04:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I'd love to also invite you to share where people can find out more about what you're up to.
• 1:04:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, is there anything that feels important to speak into that we haven't named yet?
• 1:04:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, thanks, Joel, I always enjoy our conversations and that this one is no different.
• 1:04:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate the kind of deepening into the questions together, right?
• 1:04:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: I feel a sense of walking with you in these inquiries.
• 1:04:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I suppose the only other element here for me
• 1:04:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: emphasize here as you're just describing, you know, I think the line along this up a teased description of this is the process itself is what gives the path its direction.
• 1:04:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
• 1:04:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: So there's a sense of really kind of being present with our own becoming as process that we learn what shape, you know, actually is emerging there.
• 1:05:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's not predetermined.
• 1:05:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: as you're describing it is sort of a is a calling in to a sort of deeper becoming with, right, to find out what that future particularly might be.
• 1:05:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: And while at the same time, you know, being quite encouraging and
• 1:05:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: inviting to to feel into that sense of anticipatory desire, this desire to become to transform.
• 1:05:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: That is also the future, you know, living in the present.
• 1:05:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: That is also living the future in the present in that sense, to work with that desire within process, to learn it shape, to learn
• 1:05:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, just does that.
• 1:05:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then, you know, I think for folks who want to connect, you know, I have a course coming up very short sort of weekend, three-part-er, where it's drawing a lot from from the latter half of the manuscript on integral future.
• 1:06:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's called integral futureing reclaiming time.
• 1:06:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: in the radical present and folks can probably just find that going to meet stop blog or my sub-stack and of course the latest podcast kind of goes into it a little bit as well.
• 1:06:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: So that's coming up on December 5th.
• 1:06:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: It was three days and we're kind of having a like a two-part or each day where there's a sort of an opening.
• 1:06:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: presentation discussion and then a closing presentation, we sort of repeat that for three days, a little weekend intensive.
• 1:06:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then, you know, I guess stay tuned for the manuscript itself.
• 1:06:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to be publishing excerpts from it on
• 1:06:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm hoping to have the book out in the new year, early new year, maybe February or so.
• 1:06:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll see if all goes well, it should be available hopefully in the new year, maybe January, February for pre-sale.
• 1:07:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, those are good places to plug in.
• 1:07:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for letting me share that a little bit.
• 1:07:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: Beautiful.
• 1:07:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for joining me again Jeremy and yeah, just look forward to seeing the book come out and thank you just for yeah, just love being in dialogue with you.
• 1:07:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: So thanks Likewise Joel.
• 1:07:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, thanks for this wonderful conversation
• 1:07:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: Until next time, wherever that, whenever that is, I'm never presently.
• 1:07:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: Here we are.
• 1:07:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're at the end of the podcast.
• 1:07:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: Just a heads up again.
• 1:07:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: If you're not on our mailing list and you want to stay in the loop about other things we create, then head to coaches rising.com.
• 1:07:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: Put your name in the sign up box there.
• 1:07:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: You'll also find some of our other offerings online trainings for coaches there.
• 1:07:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: And just want to end by wishing you well.
• 1:07:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I'll see you again next time.