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Memes, Mother and Dissecting Pop Culture with Evan Ross Katz · QUESTION EVERYTHING

0:04
Speaker 1: Big things happen when you're pretty, pretty bold, pretty clever,
0:08
Speaker 1: pretty strong. I'm Danielle Robe, and each week my guests
0:12
Speaker 1: and I have conversations that put a new spin on
0:15
Speaker 1: pretty This is pretty smart. This summer has felt like
0:21
Speaker 1: a feast for a lot of pop culture superfans, I know,
0:24
Speaker 1: prior to the start of a Hollywood strike that is
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Speaker 1: upending the industry. The past couple of months have felt
0:29
Speaker 1: like a big celebration for fandoms. From Taylor Swift and
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Speaker 1: Beyonce's massive tours welcome to the renaissances, which are predicted
0:40
Speaker 1: to generate billions of dollars in revenue, to the phenomenon
0:44
Speaker 1: that is the Barbie movie.
0:46
Speaker 2: Hi Barbie, Hi, Barbie, Hi Barbie, Hi Barbie, Hi, Barby,
0:50
Speaker 2: Hi Barbie.
0:51
Speaker 1: I think the really fun part about fandom is the
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Speaker 1: community aspect. It's so thrilling to be experiencing something really
0:58
Speaker 1: meaningful at the same time as other people who feel
1:01
Speaker 1: the exact same way. But there's a flip side to
1:04
Speaker 1: that too, and the Internet and social media has completely
1:08
Speaker 1: revolutionized the world of fandoms, the world of celebrity, and
1:12
Speaker 1: of course pop culture. Today's guest, Evan Ross Katz knows
1:20
Speaker 1: this better than anybody. Evan is a writer, podcast host,
1:24
Speaker 1: and cultural commentator whose work you've seen in New York magazines,
1:28
Speaker 1: The Cut, GQ, British Vogue, and his Instagram page, which
1:33
Speaker 1: is home to viral memes about everything from and just
1:36
Speaker 1: Like That, the Bear, and so much more. He was
1:40
Speaker 1: named one of Fast companies Most Creative People in Business
1:43
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty one, and he was called the most
1:46
Speaker 1: valuable hype man in the history of television by White
1:50
Speaker 1: Lotus creator Mike White. Today, we're talking about the intersection
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Speaker 1: of pop culture and internet culture and what it really
1:58
Speaker 1: means to be a critic in the digital era.
2:01
Speaker 2: It's so interesting to me, fascinating, especially now, because a
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Speaker 2: viral tweet that's hating on something can get just as
2:10
Speaker 2: much traction as the New York Times Review, maybe more,
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Speaker 2: maybe more.
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Speaker 1: Plus his formula for going viral.
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Speaker 2: Things ping or they don't ping, and I don't try
2:19
Speaker 2: and spend a lot of time delving into why is
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Speaker 2: it pinging? And I think that's just my sensibility of
2:24
Speaker 2: like forward, forward, forward, which is like it's pinging, we
2:27
Speaker 2: got to talk about it. Go.
2:29
Speaker 1: Evan also dishes on his famous friends and my celebs
2:33
Speaker 1: are just like us. They love a little harmless gossip.
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Speaker 2: You know who loves to gossip. And I'm feel comfortable
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Speaker 2: saying this because they are open about it.
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Speaker 1: So let's get into it with the professional pop culture
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Speaker 1: hype man, Evan ross Katz. Welcome to Pretty Smart.
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Speaker 2: Thank you.
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Speaker 1: So, Evan, your bio classifies you as a Sarah Michelle
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Speaker 1: Geller historian, and you actually wrote a book about Buffy
2:56
Speaker 1: the Vampire Slayers. So as I was thinking about I thought, Okay,
3:00
Speaker 1: this signals a few things to me, and I want
3:02
Speaker 1: you to tell me if they resonate you're a genre bender,
3:06
Speaker 1: I'll take it. You appreciate strong, complex female characters, Yes, absolutely.
3:11
Speaker 1: You like witty and clever dialogue, Mandy, and you enjoy
3:15
Speaker 1: being a part of something like a larger group.
3:18
Speaker 2: Yeah. I love a fan community of any kind, and
3:22
Speaker 2: I like starting or being a part of conversations within fandoms.
3:26
Speaker 1: What started the Buffy obsession?
3:29
Speaker 2: So I was done an all my children fan growing up,
3:32
Speaker 2: but my best friend's mom used to always be watching
3:34
Speaker 2: all my children when we would come home from school.
3:36
Speaker 2: She'd have them on the VHSS tapes at the time,
3:39
Speaker 2: and that's when I first saw Sarah Michelle Geller, and
3:43
Speaker 2: for those that remember, she played this character named Kendall
3:45
Speaker 2: Hart and all my children. She was like kind of
3:47
Speaker 2: like the prototypically bad girl, and that really vibed from
3:51
Speaker 2: me when I was younger. And I remember when she
3:53
Speaker 2: got cast on Buffy. I had seen the Buffy movie
3:55
Speaker 2: from nineteen ninety two and I was like, Oh, it's
3:56
Speaker 2: this actress I love, and this like ip I'm familiar with.
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Speaker 2: So I was watching Maffie very early. I mean it
4:02
Speaker 2: was way too young to be watching it, I think,
4:04
Speaker 2: to your point, I mean there was something about that strong,
4:07
Speaker 2: complex female lead that really vibe for me. And then
4:09
Speaker 2: also there's something very queer coded about the character of
4:13
Speaker 2: Buffy that pinged for me. Again before I knew that
4:16
Speaker 2: I was a part of the gay community. I recognize
4:20
Speaker 2: this sort of like otherness that she felt and having
4:22
Speaker 2: to conceal her slayer identity that pined for me in
4:26
Speaker 2: some way. And so I think that was like the
4:28
Speaker 2: thing early on where I was like, hmmm, I see her.
4:31
Speaker 1: So I think people that love pop culture like we do,
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Speaker 1: there's like something that happens when you're a kid, the
4:39
Speaker 1: things that you're drawn to don't really make sense to you.
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Speaker 1: You're drawn to them, and then later you unpack them
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Speaker 1: and you realize so like you realize that you've been
4:47
Speaker 1: the same person since you were five.
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Speaker 2: Yes, it's creepy. It's creepy.
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Speaker 1: What was it about pop culture that you just loved? Because, like,
4:55
Speaker 1: I'll give you an example. I would watch TV and
4:58
Speaker 1: my dad was a dentist and my mom sold mortgages
5:01
Speaker 1: and they were like professionals, and I would watch TV
5:04
Speaker 1: and they'd be like, you are wasting your brain? What
5:06
Speaker 1: are you doing? And then later I grew up and
5:09
Speaker 1: they'd be like, I'm really sorry, you were just doing research.
5:13
Speaker 1: Did you have a similar experience.
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Speaker 2: Absolutely, I feel like it's just like I had these
5:17
Speaker 2: early memories. And I've heard this from so many other
5:19
Speaker 2: people too. That's the thing we learned in adulthood. It's
5:21
Speaker 2: like these things that we thought were so singularly our
5:23
Speaker 2: experienced for pop culture themes, it's very universal. But it's
5:26
Speaker 2: like I just remember like the closer I could be
5:28
Speaker 2: to the TV, the better, Like I remember thinking that
5:31
Speaker 2: like if again, like nose pressed up against the screen,
5:34
Speaker 2: thinking like if I get close enough, maybe the glass
5:37
Speaker 2: will go away. And I'll be there. That was always
5:40
Speaker 2: my like my mode of thinking. But I just I
5:42
Speaker 2: love the escapism of it. I grew up in a
5:44
Speaker 2: town that's like eight miles south of Pittsburgh, so very
5:46
Speaker 2: suburbia and very sort of simple for lack of a
5:50
Speaker 2: better word, and the places that I would find in
5:52
Speaker 2: pop culture were complex, and I just liked all of
5:56
Speaker 2: these worlds that I could step into and again, even
5:58
Speaker 2: before I recognize is the complexity of like what that
6:01
Speaker 2: was for me, It was just like even like thinking
6:04
Speaker 2: about like the color palettes, right, like we're so different
6:07
Speaker 2: than like what I was seeing outside of my door. Yeah,
6:10
Speaker 2: I was drawn to that. I was drawn to the language.
6:12
Speaker 2: I was drawn to the music and this idyllic place
6:15
Speaker 2: called Hollywood, which I didn't know anything about, but I
6:18
Speaker 2: knew it was like majestics.
6:20
Speaker 1: I feel so validated hearing you say that I watched
6:24
Speaker 1: like Xeno Warrior Princess, I watched Saved by the Bell,
6:27
Speaker 1: I watched a ton of black comedies. And I think
6:31
Speaker 1: I grew up in such a homogeneous area that I
6:34
Speaker 1: was so curious and hungry for any sort of like diversity,
6:41
Speaker 1: any anything that wasn't my life. Every day. It's sort
6:46
Speaker 1: of an escapism, I guess.
6:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, and also just you know, expanding your world,
6:51
Speaker 2: because especially for people that come from small towns, you
6:54
Speaker 2: have this idea that like this is like there's a
6:56
Speaker 2: long period of time where I just thought that was
6:58
Speaker 2: the world my town was that there was, and when
7:01
Speaker 2: you discover these shows with these diverse casts, you start
7:04
Speaker 2: to realize the world is bigger than my concept of it.
7:07
Speaker 2: And then you find a filmmaker that you really love
7:09
Speaker 2: and you learn about their world, and then they'll be like, well,
7:11
Speaker 2: I'm a fan of this this autor yeah, their world.
7:14
Speaker 2: So it's just a matter. It's like your world continues
7:17
Speaker 2: to be blown up and expanded, and it's something that
7:19
Speaker 2: media can offer that, especially for people that aren't in
7:22
Speaker 2: these big metropolitan areas, it can be like their first
7:25
Speaker 2: gateway to an understanding of a bigger world.
7:28
Speaker 1: Very much so Well said, do you remember your first
7:30
Speaker 1: celebrity crush?
7:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, probably Jonathan Taylor Thomas. And it's funny that I
7:36
Speaker 2: didn't know it was a crush. It's just that my
7:38
Speaker 2: brother actually recently told me, he was like, do you
7:40
Speaker 2: remember that you had a Jonathan Taylor Thomas poster up?
7:43
Speaker 2: In your room and I'm like, I didn't remember that,
7:46
Speaker 2: but that that tracked Jonathan Taylor, Thomas, Devin Sawa and
7:49
Speaker 2: Little Giants, any of like the the nineties flavors of
7:52
Speaker 2: the week. I was, yeah, my tastes were not complex.
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Speaker 1: You know your title is pop Culture Digital consult Yes,
8:01
Speaker 1: I had never heard that before. Was that self proclaimed?
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Speaker 2: No, that is it's like I feel like in this
8:08
Speaker 2: industry and this isn't a bad thing, but I've sort
8:10
Speaker 2: of because I don't do one thing. Yeah, there's always
8:13
Speaker 2: been that effort to sort of like like even when
8:15
Speaker 2: you were like, can you send your bio over? And
8:17
Speaker 2: then I was like, I don't. It's hard for me
8:19
Speaker 2: to write a bio because then I'm like forced to
8:22
Speaker 2: describe what it is that I do, and I'm much
8:24
Speaker 2: more of a doer than an analyzer when it comes
8:26
Speaker 2: to myself. Yeah, like that sort of encapsulated a bunch
8:29
Speaker 2: of terms and I was like, maybe this is like
8:31
Speaker 2: a soup that like comprises what I do.
8:34
Speaker 1: When I told a few of my friends that I
8:35
Speaker 1: was interviewing you, they love you. They were so excited,
8:38
Speaker 1: but they were like, you have to ask him about
8:40
Speaker 1: the pivot. He's the master of the pivot. Oh wow,
8:42
Speaker 1: I didn't know what they meant by that. Do you know?
8:45
Speaker 2: I'm curious. I feel i'd love you know this thing
8:47
Speaker 2: I'm a master of.
8:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, they said that you have because you started in
8:51
Speaker 1: pr No.
8:52
Speaker 2: I started as a writer. I've done a little bit
8:54
Speaker 2: of everything, and I kind of still do a little
8:56
Speaker 2: bit of everything. And I do a lot of things
8:57
Speaker 2: that people don't even know about behind the scenes. What
9:00
Speaker 2: Like I do a lot of strategizing or post writing
9:04
Speaker 2: or post coming up with for celebrities in particular that
9:08
Speaker 2: it's like I would never be on my resume and
9:10
Speaker 2: would never be known. I kind of am sort of
9:12
Speaker 2: like nimble, and it's like I kind of when I'm
9:15
Speaker 2: called upon, I sort of activate.
9:18
Speaker 1: And do these celebrities find you via your page or
9:21
Speaker 1: how does it work?
9:21
Speaker 2: They would be friends that will be like, Hey, I
9:26
Speaker 2: just did this magazine cover and I think I should
9:28
Speaker 2: post about it on social Do you have any idea
9:31
Speaker 2: or if like I've had instances where like a celebrity
9:33
Speaker 2: is gonna make like a big announcement about something that's
9:36
Speaker 2: very personal to them, and they might send me the
9:38
Speaker 2: post and be like, can you gut check this and
9:41
Speaker 2: is this resonating for you? And and we should we
9:44
Speaker 2: keep this part in And then also like you have
9:46
Speaker 2: to make sure things are like full proof in the
9:48
Speaker 2: sense of like if this piece of the video is
9:51
Speaker 2: taken out of context, that be reframed, and so just
9:54
Speaker 2: sort of like a you know, coming at it from
9:57
Speaker 2: all angles to make sure that they're protected.
9:58
Speaker 1: You're like a celebrities safeguard on social media.
10:01
Speaker 2: I try to be that's really cool. Yeah, huh.
10:05
Speaker 1: Which fandom do you think is the most emphatic, not
10:09
Speaker 1: with a show a person.
10:10
Speaker 2: Oh, with a person. Yeah, the Beehives the easiest example,
10:13
Speaker 2: but I think the Navy is like the most protected.
10:18
Speaker 2: I think the Navy has like the more than Taylor Swift's. See,
10:22
Speaker 2: this is the thing about fa It's hard to like
10:24
Speaker 2: have like a zoomed out view of fandoms because it's really,
10:27
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, your proximity to it.
10:30
Speaker 2: But it's like the Navy, in my experience, has a
10:33
Speaker 2: lot of joy in Rihanna and feels the desire to
10:36
Speaker 2: like share her in a way that I find a
10:38
Speaker 2: lot of other fan standems to be protective. I think.
10:42
Speaker 2: So that's just one notion the analysis of standems to
10:46
Speaker 2: me is like the great like article that has not
10:48
Speaker 2: yet been written. Yes, like a real deep dive into it,
10:52
Speaker 2: because we tend to focus on like a singular standem
10:54
Speaker 2: as it relates to that celebrity in their standem. But
10:57
Speaker 2: I'm interested in like conversations around and also like how
11:00
Speaker 2: do you develop a standum, when do you go from
11:03
Speaker 2: having fans to stands?
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Speaker 1: It's all very fascinating and who decides It's all very confusing.
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Speaker 2: Well, and sometimes the fandoms will name themselves, but then
11:11
Speaker 2: the artists will say, like, well, wait a minute, I don't,
11:14
Speaker 2: I don't. Let's let's rethink this. Let's come up with
11:16
Speaker 2: a better name. Because I know that like Ava Max
11:19
Speaker 2: stands call themselves max Andistas. But if I if I
11:22
Speaker 2: remember correctly, like she doesn't love that that designation. So
11:26
Speaker 2: it's very fascinating. I'm really interested in that space between
11:30
Speaker 2: fan and Stan. What do you think the difference is
11:33
Speaker 2: the only things in this world I stand are Sarah,
11:36
Speaker 2: Michelle Geller and Jennifer Coolidge.
11:40
Speaker 1: Is my favorite standem. I love people that love Jennifer
11:44
Speaker 1: COOLi yes.
11:45
Speaker 2: But a very like So that's a very simple stand
11:48
Speaker 2: them in that like we're we all come together because
11:51
Speaker 2: we love this human being. There's not a complexity, whereas
11:54
Speaker 2: like with Rihanna, Taylor, Beyonce, there's there's all of these
11:58
Speaker 2: things to analyze, there's concerts to go to, there's merch.
12:00
Speaker 2: With Jennifer, it's like it's a more singular like she
12:04
Speaker 2: gives a performance every once in a while and.
12:06
Speaker 1: We fing love it, right, Or she'll do an interview
12:09
Speaker 1: that makes us giggle.
12:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we're like this is amazing, and there's not
12:11
Speaker 2: like we're not analyzing it. We're just like we love it.
12:14
Speaker 1: That's true.
12:14
Speaker 2: It is more flat, like it's like, okay, well, what's
12:18
Speaker 2: your favorite song on the album? Well, which album is
12:19
Speaker 2: your favorite? Which look from this tour is your favorite? Well?
12:22
Speaker 2: Which tour is your favorite? With Jennifer, it's like this interview,
12:25
Speaker 2: we love.
12:25
Speaker 1: It, and the fans interact with each other, whereas maybe
12:28
Speaker 1: Jennifer coolish fans are more just commenting.
12:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we're just like sligh.
12:32
Speaker 1: Okay. So I feel like people in pr are incredible
12:39
Speaker 1: writers when they're good at it, because you have to
12:42
Speaker 1: be so smooth to ask for something in a tactful, loving,
12:47
Speaker 1: warm way. Yes, you were in pr Yes, do you
12:52
Speaker 1: have any tips? A lot of people that watch or
12:54
Speaker 1: listen to pretty Smart are self starters. Do you have
12:59
Speaker 1: any tips for them in terms of email writing, either
13:02
Speaker 1: when you're cold emailing or you have to ask for something.
13:04
Speaker 2: Yes, Okay, So I'm a big proponent of subject lines.
13:08
Speaker 2: Like one piece of advice I always give to writers,
13:10
Speaker 2: which I think it can be applicable to people in
13:12
Speaker 2: PR is when I'm making a pitch to someone about something,
13:17
Speaker 2: my subject lines in all caps, pitch colon, and then
13:20
Speaker 2: my headline, and I want to come up with the
13:22
Speaker 2: headline that I think is the graviest but also sort
13:25
Speaker 2: of gives a sense of both what the story is
13:27
Speaker 2: going to be about, but my pov on it. And
13:29
Speaker 2: then I'm also just a big fan of like the edit, right,
13:32
Speaker 2: So I like really being diplomatic about like here's my idea,
13:37
Speaker 2: here's why I think that you should care, and here's
13:40
Speaker 2: why it will work for you, your brand, your company,
13:42
Speaker 2: et cetera. And then it's really easy as a writer
13:45
Speaker 2: or just as like a person putting an email together,
13:48
Speaker 2: to like overstate your point because you want to be
13:51
Speaker 2: really clear and you and oftentimes I think intrinsically we think, well,
13:55
Speaker 2: how do we be clear? We say it again and
13:57
Speaker 2: again and again. But for the sake of an email,
13:59
Speaker 2: I think you in your original draft you might do that,
14:02
Speaker 2: but I think you wipe it clean and just one
14:04
Speaker 2: sentence or two sentences that lays it all out, I
14:07
Speaker 2: think is far more effective than two paragraphs where you
14:10
Speaker 2: get into the minutia. The minutia comes in step two.
14:13
Speaker 2: So I think in email writing or in life edit,
14:17
Speaker 2: it's all about the edit.
14:19
Speaker 1: That is fantastic advice, because you're right, if there's interest,
14:22
Speaker 1: then you report.
14:23
Speaker 2: I guess you don't have to say yeah.
14:25
Speaker 1: It's kind of like a first date. Yeah, absolutely right,
14:28
Speaker 1: like you don't give it all.
14:30
Speaker 2: And to that comparison to the first date, I think
14:33
Speaker 2: that it's like not worth getting butt hurt when you
14:35
Speaker 2: don't get a response or you get a no, because
14:38
Speaker 2: sometimes you go on a first date with a person
14:40
Speaker 2: and the vibe just isn't there. And it's not that
14:43
Speaker 2: you did anything wrong, you know what I mean, Sometimes
14:45
Speaker 2: there's not a vibe. And so I think of it
14:46
Speaker 2: the same way with an email, where it's like if
14:48
Speaker 2: at first you don't succeed, as Leah said, test yourself
14:51
Speaker 2: off try again. It's like that's sort of the attitude
14:54
Speaker 2: where you have to just go forward rather than ask yourself, well,
14:57
Speaker 2: did I do something wrong? Don't forget that one onto
15:02
Speaker 2: the next.
15:03
Speaker 1: You've written for so many major outlets, most recently I
15:06
Speaker 1: think I've seen pieces in the Cut, but it's Vogue, Alert, GQ, Playboy.
15:11
Speaker 1: What assignment do you feel most proud of.
15:14
Speaker 2: Oh, that's interesting, I'm really really proud. I wrote the
15:18
Speaker 2: cover story for New York Magazine for Euphoria season two,
15:22
Speaker 2: in which I interviewed the six leading ladies, and that
15:25
Speaker 2: was like fun because it's really hard to do one interview,
15:28
Speaker 2: as you know, but like six interviews and then putting
15:32
Speaker 2: them together is sort of like a puzzle, and that's
15:35
Speaker 2: like my favorite part of the process. But I had
15:37
Speaker 2: these like six one hour interviews, and then I also
15:41
Speaker 2: had to like contextualize Euphoria and the show, what had
15:45
Speaker 2: happened in season one, what was to come in season two,
15:47
Speaker 2: the cultural moment that is Euphoria, and then put all
15:50
Speaker 2: these interviews in. So that that part I'm really proud of,
15:54
Speaker 2: because it's like it's this big jigsaw puzzle and you're
15:56
Speaker 2: trying to figure out which pieces go and like, for instance,
15:59
Speaker 2: with Zendeya, you have twenty usable quotes, so then you're like, okay,
16:03
Speaker 2: well what are the three best quotes? But like, but
16:06
Speaker 2: this fourth one is really great in the context of
16:09
Speaker 2: the point I'm trying to make, I like that.
16:12
Speaker 1: Who do you call when you're going between a few
16:15
Speaker 1: quotes or you don't quite know?
16:16
Speaker 2: That's interesting? But just friends of mine, no one in
16:19
Speaker 2: the industry, or ask my mom, right because also my
16:21
Speaker 2: mom's great, because like she doesn't watch a lot of
16:23
Speaker 2: this stuff. So it's like, are you understanding the point
16:25
Speaker 2: I'm trying to make, Like, you know, you're not ultimately
16:28
Speaker 2: writing for other writers, You're writing for as many people
16:32
Speaker 2: to read and then hopefully gain an understanding of the subject.
16:35
Speaker 1: Is your mom funny? Is that why you're funny?
16:37
Speaker 2: No, my mom is decidedly or no, sorry, necessarily my
16:39
Speaker 2: mom is distinctly not funny.
16:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, does she know that?
16:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, she knows that.
16:43
Speaker 1: Who's funny?
16:44
Speaker 2: I wouldn't say there was anyone funny in the house.
16:46
Speaker 2: I honestly think it was pop culture that like made
16:49
Speaker 2: me funny. Really, I'm not saying that I'm funny because
16:52
Speaker 2: I don't know.
16:52
Speaker 1: I'm saying you're funny.
16:53
Speaker 2: Thank you, But no, I think it was just I
16:55
Speaker 2: think it was the things that I witnessed. But I
16:57
Speaker 2: also I'm like a big proponent of like I think
16:59
Speaker 2: there's like a funny lens that a lot of us
17:03
Speaker 2: possess and can tap into you where it's like you
17:05
Speaker 2: can look at any situation. It can even be like
17:08
Speaker 2: a funeral, right, and you can choose to find the
17:11
Speaker 2: funny in it. And I feel like funny to me
17:15
Speaker 2: is a matter of how you look at something. Something
17:18
Speaker 2: isn't inherently always funny, it's the perspective on it, and
17:22
Speaker 2: so I always try and find the funny or mind
17:25
Speaker 2: the funny within something.
17:26
Speaker 1: You mind it really well. I think it's interesting that
17:29
Speaker 1: you say a lot of people have a funny lens,
17:32
Speaker 1: because I'm always amazed by how funny people are online,
17:35
Speaker 1: like the comment session on Instagram, that's my favorite.
17:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's crazy.
17:38
Speaker 1: But when you're actually creating content the way you do
17:41
Speaker 1: with memes, and your memes have just gained so much
17:44
Speaker 1: popularity they do almost every time you put one out,
17:48
Speaker 1: not everyone has that lens. It's very rare. Actually, you
17:52
Speaker 1: said people are obsessed with the process of it, how
17:54
Speaker 1: do you put it together? How do you think about it?
17:56
Speaker 2: So like now I sort of have to like watch
17:58
Speaker 2: something for enjoyment versus is like watching it for like
18:01
Speaker 2: content ideation. But like you know, I'm just always conscious
18:04
Speaker 2: of like how something looks on screen, the words that
18:08
Speaker 2: they're saying, how it might look out of context. Is
18:11
Speaker 2: this the kind of quote that taken out of context
18:12
Speaker 2: has like reshare value? But for me, it's just a
18:15
Speaker 2: matter of like always trying to think of like what
18:17
Speaker 2: people react to and then also like being very reactive
18:20
Speaker 2: to people. So like yesterday, for instance, I posted what
18:23
Speaker 2: I thought was my ten favorite guest stars from Sex
18:25
Speaker 2: and the City, and the comment section blew up with
18:28
Speaker 2: you forgot this person, You forgot this person, You forgot
18:30
Speaker 2: that person. So rather than be like butt her and
18:32
Speaker 2: be like oh no, I'm like, okay, great, we got
18:34
Speaker 2: to do around two. So it's like just always sort
18:36
Speaker 2: of saying, like doing the thing, seeing how people respond
18:39
Speaker 2: to it, and then rather than look back, move forward
18:41
Speaker 2: and be like, oh, this is a great idea for
18:43
Speaker 2: another post.
18:44
Speaker 1: Okay, So you did a really personal piece that I
18:48
Speaker 1: loved for the Cut about Ali Wong, and it was
18:51
Speaker 1: when she got divorced and sort of what would be
18:54
Speaker 1: the right word, just like reignited parts of her life. Yeah, right, yeah,
18:59
Speaker 1: and I love yeah, I felt that way. I think
19:03
Speaker 1: a profile like that requires so much trust. She could
19:05
Speaker 1: have gone to a lot of people, and she came
19:08
Speaker 1: to you and she trusted you with that story. I'm
19:11
Speaker 1: wondering how that comes about for you.
19:15
Speaker 2: I love a squash. I think it's so interesting. So
19:18
Speaker 2: when you go into a profile like that or like,
19:20
Speaker 2: I'll give you no, Like I have a profile that's
19:22
Speaker 2: coming out soon with Michael Patrick King ahead of Venge,
19:25
Speaker 2: just like that, And there's similar situations where like, there's
19:27
Speaker 2: a big thing to talk to them about that people
19:30
Speaker 2: are curious about. My thing is let's talk about it briefly.
19:36
Speaker 2: Let me make sure it's something that you want to
19:39
Speaker 2: speak to, but let's not make it the focus, because
19:43
Speaker 2: it's more than likely not the focus of their lives.
19:46
Speaker 2: So I was really purposeful with any question you ask
19:49
Speaker 2: as a journalist, you're trying to think through your ideal
19:52
Speaker 2: version of their response. Right, So, like with Michael, for instance,
19:55
Speaker 2: talking about Kim coming back on just like that, what
19:57
Speaker 2: am I hoping that he will say? Right, He's not
20:00
Speaker 2: going to give me the details of what happens in
20:01
Speaker 2: the scene, so all I'm going to get is his reaction. Like,
20:05
Speaker 2: there's one thing I'm like, very big on when it
20:07
Speaker 2: comes to celebrity journalism in twenty twenty three, it's protection,
20:12
Speaker 2: protection for who, protection for them because of we live
20:16
Speaker 2: in a society for better or for worse, and I
20:18
Speaker 2: am so guilty of this, So I'm not I place
20:20
Speaker 2: no judgment on it. But we live in a contextless
20:23
Speaker 2: world right where a celebrity says something and a chunk
20:26
Speaker 2: of what they said is extracted and taken out. A
20:29
Speaker 2: great example of this, Drew Barry Moore recently had to
20:32
Speaker 2: respond because she gave an interview for Vulture and the
20:36
Speaker 2: interview was taken out of context and made it seem
20:38
Speaker 2: as though she said something that she did not say,
20:41
Speaker 2: and she felt the need to respond to that. I
20:43
Speaker 2: like to circumvent those responses, or in my mind, I'm
20:46
Speaker 2: always thinking through could something if I say it? Because
20:50
Speaker 2: sometimes a celebrity will say something and they're well intended
20:53
Speaker 2: in what they're saying, but my meme brain, that same
20:56
Speaker 2: part of my brain is like, what will this look
20:59
Speaker 2: like out of context? And I feel it incumbent upon
21:03
Speaker 2: celebrity journalists in twenty twenty three as much as they can.
21:07
Speaker 2: Sometimes you're dealing with like someone where they're saying something
21:10
Speaker 2: a little out there and you're kind of like, this
21:13
Speaker 2: out there quote, this is them, and I'm in My
21:16
Speaker 2: job is to reveal, right, So it's.
21:19
Speaker 1: About not misportraying some missportraying or misrepresentative.
21:22
Speaker 2: Yeah.
21:23
Speaker 1: I think you lead with kindness, not just yourself, but
21:26
Speaker 1: in your work, the way that you write, the idea
21:30
Speaker 1: of protecting the person that you're writing about or portraying.
21:34
Speaker 1: I do that here, Yeah, and I get a lot
21:38
Speaker 1: of backlash from not like the people listening at all,
21:42
Speaker 1: but from like behind the scenes stuff, because they're like,
21:46
Speaker 1: ask the question, get the divorce infoget, and I'm like,
21:50
Speaker 1: that's just not who I am. Yeah, and it's not
21:52
Speaker 1: what I'm interested in, be honest.
21:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel so similarly. Yeah. It's also it's seldom
21:58
Speaker 2: going to be as like fulfilling as the person telling
22:00
Speaker 2: you to do that thinks it's going to be, because
22:03
Speaker 2: in this same age, if people can tell their own stories,
22:06
Speaker 2: they don't necessarily need news outlets the way they once did.
22:10
Speaker 2: But like at the end, of the day, like especially
22:12
Speaker 2: not speaking about anyone in particular, but like when it
22:14
Speaker 2: comes to like a divorce and everything, like we all
22:17
Speaker 2: know why divorces happen. It's like seldom that complicated unless
22:21
Speaker 2: it really plays out publicly as some have in recent memory,
22:24
Speaker 2: and those have been spicy and juicy and what have you.
22:27
Speaker 2: But in general, like when X person gets divorced from
22:29
Speaker 2: X person, my immediate response is not like, tell me more.
22:33
Speaker 2: My response is sort of like, oh, divorce is tough.
22:36
Speaker 2: I know what that's like. Give that person space. I
22:38
Speaker 2: understand it's celebrity news culture, so there's obviously going to
22:42
Speaker 2: be amplified interest. It's a balance, right, But like I
22:45
Speaker 2: sort of lead with does this person do I get
22:47
Speaker 2: the sense this person wants to speak about their divorce.
22:50
Speaker 2: I sort of let that and to me not that
22:53
Speaker 2: that's energy based or like you sit down with the person,
22:56
Speaker 2: you get the sense of how open book are there
22:59
Speaker 2: going to be? And I have to say, like I
23:01
Speaker 2: do not expect any person who's being interviewed to come
23:07
Speaker 2: and just fold all their cards. It's an interesting line
23:10
Speaker 2: of work that comes with celebrity, where there's like that
23:13
Speaker 2: expectation often that they have to reveal some parts themselves
23:17
Speaker 2: because they are in the public eye. I don't prescribe
23:20
Speaker 2: to the idea that people have to reveal anything about themselves.
23:24
Speaker 2: I understand there's going to be interest in that, but
23:26
Speaker 2: like when it comes to like Khuso and so is dating,
23:29
Speaker 2: sleeping with what have you, if they bring it up,
23:32
Speaker 2: I'll go with it, sure, my god, But I don't
23:34
Speaker 2: think that my line of interests or my line of
23:36
Speaker 2: question is not really gotcha journalism.
23:40
Speaker 1: When do you feel out of your depth? Because to me,
23:42
Speaker 1: you seem like you have found such a foothold in
23:45
Speaker 1: what you're doing.
23:46
Speaker 2: So I'm a big proponent of like, if I don't
23:48
Speaker 2: know about it, I try not to speak about it.
23:51
Speaker 2: It can be very easy in like the pop culture space,
23:55
Speaker 2: because there's always something to latch onto and always something
23:59
Speaker 2: going on to feel like you want to weigh in
24:01
Speaker 2: on everything. And I try and be like really particular
24:04
Speaker 2: about like what my lane is and what I feel
24:07
Speaker 2: comfortable speaking to you when it comes to something like
24:09
Speaker 2: Sex and the City. I've known the show for twenty
24:11
Speaker 2: five years. I know a lot of these people. I
24:14
Speaker 2: feel like I have an encyclopedic knowledge of it. I
24:16
Speaker 2: feel that's a lane I feel really comfortable in. Sometimes
24:19
Speaker 2: when it's something that I don't know about, I just
24:22
Speaker 2: I'm a consumer at heart, Like I really I like
24:25
Speaker 2: to read other people's things. And then also just like
24:28
Speaker 2: I don't innately have the desire to be the loudest
24:31
Speaker 2: person in the room. So if I don't know about something,
24:34
Speaker 2: but something's really percolating, my instinct is like, oh, I'd
24:37
Speaker 2: love to read more about this, Like when the Succession
24:40
Speaker 2: if finale happened, Like that's a show, Like I just
24:42
Speaker 2: want to hear, read, consume all the different takes. I
24:46
Speaker 2: don't have a strong opinion about Succession in the way
24:49
Speaker 2: I do Sex and the City, but I'm interested in it.
24:53
Speaker 2: But I don't think that like I need to be
24:54
Speaker 2: a thought leader when it comes to Succession. I just
24:57
Speaker 2: am a consumer.
24:58
Speaker 1: I think that you're personal brand and your voice is
25:02
Speaker 1: so distinct, and that, to me, tell me if I'm wrong,
25:06
Speaker 1: comes with years of determining what isn't your voice, what
25:11
Speaker 1: isn't your Yeah, that's so true.
25:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, because it's interesting, like when you message me and
25:15
Speaker 2: we're mentioning in the kindness thing, it's so funny because
25:18
Speaker 2: I used to be like someone that would like go
25:20
Speaker 2: on Instagram and like I was a call out person.
25:23
Speaker 2: You know, yeah, I want to come out. I just
25:27
Speaker 2: like when I saw people doing problematic things, I was
25:29
Speaker 2: like very quick to be like so and so said
25:32
Speaker 2: this thing. Everyone like, you know, get in the comments
25:35
Speaker 2: and let's let's pop off together. And I have a
25:38
Speaker 2: very different mindset now where if someone were to say
25:41
Speaker 2: something that like didn't align with my value, if someone
25:43
Speaker 2: that I don't feel any type of way about says
25:46
Speaker 2: something that doesn't align with my values, I don't feel
25:49
Speaker 2: the need to sort of like get in the mud
25:51
Speaker 2: with them necessarily. It feel like we live in a culture,
25:54
Speaker 2: especially online, where there's so much vitriol and negativity kind
25:59
Speaker 2: of gains traction very easily on the Internet. I don't
26:01
Speaker 2: feel the need to contribute to it. And it's and
26:03
Speaker 2: I have to remind myself of this often, Like we're
26:06
Speaker 2: about to go into like season two event just like that,
26:09
Speaker 2: and like I'm gonna have moments wor I'm gonna be like, oh, wow,
26:12
Speaker 2: they made that choice. I'm gonna bite my tongue, you know,
26:16
Speaker 2: just because it's like I don't feel to contribute to
26:20
Speaker 2: the negativity, especially especially when it comes to art, like
26:24
Speaker 2: like knowing how many people worked on these things, how
26:27
Speaker 2: much pride and joy people having things. Yeah, my whole
26:30
Speaker 2: thing is it's like if people are it's like people
26:33
Speaker 2: should watch the thing, people should consume the thing and
26:37
Speaker 2: then determine they don't like it, versus seeing someone like
26:40
Speaker 2: me hating on it and then being like, I'm not
26:43
Speaker 2: gonna give this a try because Evan Rosskatz didn't like it.
26:46
Speaker 2: I don't ever want to be someone that that's my
26:49
Speaker 2: value out to society.
26:50
Speaker 1: So actually this was my next question. You are a
26:53
Speaker 1: cultural critic, so without tearing down people and art, how
26:58
Speaker 1: do you think of a great critique.
27:01
Speaker 2: It's fascinating. I'm like, I'm so into criticism, like as
27:04
Speaker 2: like the idea of I'm interested in people that are
27:08
Speaker 2: criticized talking about what they think makes good criticism. It's
27:11
Speaker 2: so interesting to me. Fascinating, especially now because a viral
27:16
Speaker 2: tweet that's hating on something can get just as much
27:20
Speaker 2: traction as the New York Times review, maybe more, maybe more.
27:24
Speaker 2: And also through a couple of viral tweets, are we
27:28
Speaker 2: allowed to swear through a couple of viral tweets shitting
27:30
Speaker 2: on something? The cultural conversation around the thing can completely
27:35
Speaker 2: be centered recentered, rather based off of that, Like there's
27:38
Speaker 2: so much like we're so reactive that criticism inherently, I
27:42
Speaker 2: think is less valuable in twenty twenty three in a
27:45
Speaker 2: way that I think can be somewhat concerning. But there's
27:48
Speaker 2: something interesting because criticism is inherently undemocratic, and it's interesting
27:54
Speaker 2: because like we want to invite more voices into the
27:57
Speaker 2: conversation around how we critique things. And like, I think
28:00
Speaker 2: Sex and the City is like a great example of like,
28:03
Speaker 2: there are so many ways we can look back at
28:04
Speaker 2: the show and view it through the prism of like
28:07
Speaker 2: this is the ways in which the show fell short,
28:10
Speaker 2: or we can go back at it and look at
28:11
Speaker 2: it and be like this is a relic of this
28:12
Speaker 2: time and a great and it's like and both of
28:15
Speaker 2: those criticisms are valid and like are worth talking about.
28:19
Speaker 2: So to your question, like what makes good criticism, Yeah,
28:23
Speaker 2: I think there has to be a willingness to grapple
28:26
Speaker 2: with whatever your innate opinion is about it. There has
28:29
Speaker 2: to be the willingness to grapple with the other side
28:31
Speaker 2: of that. So if you hate something, give me tell
28:34
Speaker 2: me the five things you hated about it, Tell me
28:36
Speaker 2: three things you loved about it. It's like there has
28:38
Speaker 2: to be that willingness to like say, it's the.
28:41
Speaker 1: Mark of a good debate. Yeah, your account is such
28:45
Speaker 1: a beautiful place for complex women in pop culture, and
28:50
Speaker 1: I think that's really rare. In my mind, media covers
28:55
Speaker 1: women in a really tough way, even when they don't
28:58
Speaker 1: mean to. I think there's just bias that people don't
29:02
Speaker 1: even recognize. Why are you so connected to complex women?
29:07
Speaker 2: It's fy that you call them complex women, because my
29:09
Speaker 2: immediate response that is like, I don't think of them
29:11
Speaker 2: as complex. I think of them as just Yeah, I
29:14
Speaker 2: don't even think of them as women. It's just what
29:16
Speaker 2: I'm drawn to. It's more that, like I'm uninterested in
29:20
Speaker 2: people that lack complexity or characters rather, but also characters
29:24
Speaker 2: people kind of go hand in hand. It's what I'm
29:27
Speaker 2: drawn to. It's like I remember when they first announced
29:29
Speaker 2: HAS and then I saw the trailer and it was like,
29:31
Speaker 2: Jeane Smart's gonna be playing this like comedian who's like
29:35
Speaker 2: her career is sort of falling off, and I was like,
29:37
Speaker 2: oh my god, Like I was like in when I
29:39
Speaker 2: saw that.
29:40
Speaker 1: For anybody watching or listening. That's like kind of a
29:43
Speaker 1: Joan Rivers.
29:43
Speaker 2: Esque Yes, yes, yes, yes yes. When Kate Winslet was
29:46
Speaker 2: announced in Marrabi's town and I was like, oh my god,
29:48
Speaker 2: Kate Winslet's gonna be doing a Philadelphia accent, I'm in like,
29:52
Speaker 2: there's just like there. When these are the women that
29:55
Speaker 2: excite me, when I see them on red carpets, I'm excited.
29:58
Speaker 2: I mean, when I saw Margot Martindale on the red
30:00
Speaker 2: carpet of Cocaine Bear, I'm like, oh my god, and
30:03
Speaker 2: she's just in slacks and a black top and I'm
30:06
Speaker 2: just like fashion icon. I don't know. It's again, it's
30:08
Speaker 2: like things ping or they don't ping, and I don't
30:11
Speaker 2: try and spend a lot of time delving into why
30:14
Speaker 2: is it pinging? And I think that's just my sensibility
30:17
Speaker 2: of like forward, forward, forward, which is like it's pinging,
30:20
Speaker 2: we got to talk about it.
30:21
Speaker 1: Go if you're obsessed with the conversation.
30:24
Speaker 2: But I'm also like, if it green lights in my
30:27
Speaker 2: head and I think, I'm like, let's bring it forward
30:30
Speaker 2: to the community and are we interested? Do we care?
30:33
Speaker 2: And if there wasn't much conversation, thank God, I have
30:36
Speaker 2: created a paradigm in which other people in my circle
30:39
Speaker 2: also can look at Margot Martindale on the red carpet
30:42
Speaker 2: of Cocaine Bear and be snapping their fingers. There's a
30:45
Speaker 2: whole conglomerate of people that would say, who is this,
30:49
Speaker 2: what is this? Where is this? Great? But for me
30:52
Speaker 2: in my world, Margot Martindale on the carpet of Cocaine Bear,
30:56
Speaker 2: that's breaking news.
30:57
Speaker 1: Yeah, amazing. Like Okay, celeb Internet friends, Ariana Grande, Andy Cohen,
31:05
Speaker 1: Lisa Rinna, can you characterize what is happening in your dms?
31:09
Speaker 2: A lot of voice memos?
31:11
Speaker 1: I heard that's a thing with celebrities now, Yeah, because
31:14
Speaker 1: they don't want to have anything in writing.
31:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that kind of brilliant. It is brilliant.
31:19
Speaker 2: But I would say the majority of the thing that
31:20
Speaker 2: goes down in the DMS with celebrities would be and
31:23
Speaker 2: this is not across the board, but celebrities often are
31:26
Speaker 2: just like us. They love to gossip. I like gossip,
31:30
Speaker 2: I always have, but I don't need gossip to be
31:33
Speaker 2: the thing that like that helps booy bolster me in
31:37
Speaker 2: any sense. So, like I'm happiest going back and forth
31:40
Speaker 2: with an Internet stranger about that has some proximity to
31:44
Speaker 2: the person or something. You love to gossip, And I'm
31:47
Speaker 2: feel comfortable saying this because they are open about it,
31:50
Speaker 2: Like Molly Shannon. Molly Shannon like loves to gossip and
31:53
Speaker 2: like that's We're a perfect marriage. Like I love to gossip.
31:55
Speaker 1: That's amazing.
31:56
Speaker 2: Yeah, But so it's just what it's I would say
31:58
Speaker 2: in general, it's a lot of gossip and not necessarily
32:00
Speaker 2: anything like so juicy, but that's my thing. I love
32:03
Speaker 2: a voice memo because I can convey a fuller version
32:06
Speaker 2: of myself in voice memo through my tone. Oh. I
32:10
Speaker 2: remember during end, just like that season one, like just
32:13
Speaker 2: chatting about Chads and the DMS.
32:15
Speaker 1: A lot everyone wanted to chat ever wanted.
32:17
Speaker 2: To chat about it. But like a lot of people
32:19
Speaker 2: too that would never like aren't gonna like publicly say
32:22
Speaker 2: anything about Chay, but like want to just talk Chay.
32:27
Speaker 1: Random ones like they just like have this instinct to
32:30
Speaker 1: talk about something, and so they chat with you, and
32:32
Speaker 1: You're like, whoa so and so just like yes.
32:36
Speaker 2: But I'm not so surprised by it anymore, not because
32:38
Speaker 2: of like who I am, but like I understand the
32:41
Speaker 2: desire to get in on the conversation because often not
32:44
Speaker 2: always so Like celebrities are fans too of things that
32:48
Speaker 2: are watching things and consuming them. I mean you see
32:50
Speaker 2: a lot of celebrities talking about succession or white Lotus,
32:52
Speaker 2: but like they're watching a lot of the same stuff.
32:55
Speaker 2: And so whether it be like Housewives or drag Race
32:57
Speaker 2: or what have you. And so you know one of
32:59
Speaker 2: those celebrities as you mentioned, for instance, it's like we
33:01
Speaker 2: go back and forth after every episode of drag Race
33:04
Speaker 2: and we, you know, just give our notes about how
33:06
Speaker 2: we thought so and so did, just because it's fun
33:08
Speaker 2: to have someone to talk about the thing, the thing
33:11
Speaker 2: that you you truly love. It's fun to just go
33:13
Speaker 2: back and forth about that.
33:15
Speaker 1: You're making me think. So every year on my New
33:17
Speaker 1: Year's resolutions list or goals, I put stop gossiping. Hmmm,
33:23
Speaker 1: because I don't like when negative things come out of
33:25
Speaker 1: my mouth. It makes me feel bad. Interesting, but you're
33:27
Speaker 1: making me think maybe there's a kind okay way to gossip.
33:31
Speaker 2: Well, no, because it's I say some unkind things. I
33:34
Speaker 2: think it's a matter of where they're being said. Because
33:37
Speaker 2: here's the thing I'm not like advocating saying negative things
33:41
Speaker 2: about people. But there's an arguments we made about the
33:44
Speaker 2: fact that, like, listen, these thoughts just state in our heads.
33:46
Speaker 2: Sometimes we have judgments this person looks like shit in
33:49
Speaker 2: that thing, Like these are thoughts that occur to us.
33:52
Speaker 2: For me, it's more a matter of Okay, if I
33:54
Speaker 2: have the thought, maybe I share it with three or
33:57
Speaker 2: four of my closest friends. I'm not going to go
33:59
Speaker 2: on instant and be like this person this red carpet,
34:02
Speaker 2: my god. But I do want to be able to
34:05
Speaker 2: chuge it a few people and be like, can we
34:07
Speaker 2: talk about how bad so and so looks in this outfit?
34:10
Speaker 2: They thought this was a serve. This was not a serve.
34:14
Speaker 2: I think that it's I don't want to use the
34:15
Speaker 2: word healthier, unhealthy, becaus who's to say, But like, it's
34:18
Speaker 2: gratifying for me in the group chat sometimes to roast
34:22
Speaker 2: someone and I'm not saying we're like eviscerating them, And
34:25
Speaker 2: again it's not it's sometimes it's just fun in the group,
34:29
Speaker 2: in the safety of the group chat. And to deny that,
34:32
Speaker 2: I feel like it's not to be real and I
34:34
Speaker 2: gotta be real. Like, yes, I think it's a matter
34:36
Speaker 2: of Wow. Inherently I understand like gossip bad. Inherently, Yes,
34:41
Speaker 2: aligned I think there's a time and a.
34:43
Speaker 1: Place Sometimes it's okay to spill the tea. It just
34:46
Speaker 1: depends on who you're drinking it with.
34:48
Speaker 2: Absolutely not. Sometimes I think.
34:50
Speaker 1: Often, Oh, have you ever been blocked by someone?
34:55
Speaker 2: Yes? Well, I have like a whole like I'm dag
34:58
Speaker 2: to know who I am, a history. It's it's like
35:00
Speaker 2: with Kim Control. So I was blocked by Kim Control
35:03
Speaker 2: for a few years. Right, I'd rather not say because
35:08
Speaker 2: I'd rather because honestly, if I say, it's so much
35:11
Speaker 2: less funny than to like, yeah, the mystery of it.
35:14
Speaker 1: Chris Brown blocks me. I have no idea, never met him.
35:18
Speaker 2: Interesting. Yeah, I have some stylists that I've been blocked
35:22
Speaker 2: by because again in my mean girl era, Yeah, they
35:25
Speaker 2: probably felt a certain way, which they're totally entitled to.
35:27
Speaker 2: Kim was the most famous. But I got unblocked in
35:30
Speaker 2: twenty sixteen or was it twenty eighteen anyway, I got
35:33
Speaker 2: unblocked at some point, and yeah, that was that was
35:37
Speaker 2: huge because you can imagine, yea locked my damage, it hurts.
35:39
Speaker 2: That's the only major one. I have a couple that
35:43
Speaker 2: I get left on red often, so I'm like, Okay, yeah,
35:46
Speaker 2: I'm not hurt by it.
35:48
Speaker 1: When Channing Tatum started like being into your whole profile,
35:51
Speaker 1: I was like, this is the best ever love Channing.
35:54
Speaker 2: That so Channing loves a VOICEMAIMI if you want to
35:57
Speaker 2: hear not to plug. But on the season on the
36:00
Speaker 2: newest episode of my podcast, shut Up Evan, there's a
36:02
Speaker 2: little cameo from Channing. There is Yeah, he calls in
36:06
Speaker 2: because I had James Marsden on and there's a story that.
36:10
Speaker 1: Gets uh and he calls in. Can you show everybody
36:14
Speaker 1: you're because this is shut Up Evan, But we're not
36:17
Speaker 1: telling you to shut up.
36:17
Speaker 2: Today hopefully not.
36:19
Speaker 1: No, No, I would never more Team Okay. Which show
36:24
Speaker 1: right now do you look to and think they're really
36:27
Speaker 1: doing something to push the culture well forward?
36:30
Speaker 2: My answer would be Survivor. As a huge Survivor fan,
36:32
Speaker 2: and I say there was a CBS mandate that was
36:36
Speaker 2: put forward during COVID because there's just been a lot
36:39
Speaker 2: of antiquated casting on Survivor and ways in which marginalized
36:43
Speaker 2: communities that have been on Survivor their stories have not
36:47
Speaker 2: been told with nuance or depth, and so now Survivor's
36:51
Speaker 2: casting fifty percent POC within all of their cast. This
36:54
Speaker 2: is for Survivor and for Big Brother, and as a result,
36:57
Speaker 2: Survivor has just become such a better show. So that
37:01
Speaker 2: would be an example of a show that I think
37:03
Speaker 2: is now. For instance, there was so often where Survivor
37:06
Speaker 2: would have one LGBTQ plus cast member, and now I
37:10
Speaker 2: think at season forty four there was something like five
37:12
Speaker 2: or six. And so you get to have queer people
37:14
Speaker 2: in conversation with other queer people talking about their different
37:18
Speaker 2: experiences of growing up queer. That nuance is something that
37:23
Speaker 2: I think is really exciting to see survising.
37:25
Speaker 1: I agree. Okay, pop culture predictions, Yeah, we have to
37:30
Speaker 1: go kind of fast with these. Can you crown the
37:32
Speaker 1: future mother of the Internet?
37:35
Speaker 2: Huh? The future mother of the Internet?
37:38
Speaker 1: Does mother have to be a little quirky?
37:40
Speaker 2: So the hard thing with Mother. I feel this way
37:42
Speaker 2: about Mother, and I feel this way about Baby Girl.
37:44
Speaker 2: You kind of know it when you see it. It's
37:46
Speaker 2: kind of like camp, which is that like anytime someone
37:49
Speaker 2: defines camp, I'm always like, ooh, you kind of just
37:52
Speaker 2: know when you see it. A future Mother would be
37:54
Speaker 2: l Fanning, Oh Ell Fanning in twenty years I see mother. However,
37:58
Speaker 2: I want to say, you don't have to be a
38:00
Speaker 2: certain age to be mother, but it's hard as a
38:02
Speaker 2: young person to be mother to possess those capabilities. But
38:06
Speaker 2: mother is sort of just like sometimes like you see it.
38:10
Speaker 2: I'm interested to see a when we're going to have
38:13
Speaker 2: our first male mother.
38:16
Speaker 1: Do we kind of have that with Pedro?
38:19
Speaker 2: No, because he's daddy well, but also like daddy is
38:21
Speaker 2: very different because like Daddy, I think is more inherently sexualized,
38:24
Speaker 2: whereas like mother is like we worship you. Like there's
38:28
Speaker 2: a differentiation. Okay, I'm interested in, like if we can
38:31
Speaker 2: bolster father discourse because again we have father and daddy. Again,
38:35
Speaker 2: Daddy's more sexualized father Ryan Cox of Succession. But here's
38:41
Speaker 2: the question, is Brian Cox of Succession mother?
38:45
Speaker 3: I don't know.
38:46
Speaker 1: I would argue interesting, I would argue, do you think
38:49
Speaker 1: AI could change pop culture?
38:51
Speaker 2: I think it can. I hope it doesn't me too.
38:55
Speaker 1: When I use chat GPT now it's helpful, but it
38:58
Speaker 1: takes the humanness out of it everything.
39:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that what excites people about pop culture
39:04
Speaker 2: is the humanity of it. So I mean, obviously I
39:07
Speaker 2: think AI can do a lot more than we're even
39:09
Speaker 2: aware of at the moment. But I think I'm grasping
39:11
Speaker 2: to the fact that the pop culture relies on idiosyncrasies
39:16
Speaker 2: and that's something that AI will be incapable of doing.
39:19
Speaker 2: But like, cut to five years from now, when this
39:21
Speaker 2: interview is like you and I are replaced by robots.
39:23
Speaker 1: So okay, you've said, I'm often reminded how much celebrities
39:26
Speaker 1: are people in all of the ways that make us people.
39:29
Speaker 1: Is there a celebri that's really humbled themselves in front
39:31
Speaker 1: of you?
39:32
Speaker 2: I'm really fascinated by, like we were talking about this
39:34
Speaker 2: off camera briefly, like this idea of like before the
39:37
Speaker 2: interview when they're being quote unquote themselves and then how
39:40
Speaker 2: they turn on for the interview. I'm sort of interested
39:43
Speaker 2: in the performance of celebrity that celebrities often feel compelled
39:48
Speaker 2: to be and the space between that. There are some
39:51
Speaker 2: celebrities where I feel like the person I see on
39:53
Speaker 2: screen and the person I see offscreen are completely the same,
39:56
Speaker 2: and then sometimes there's like a gulf between. But I
39:59
Speaker 2: have to say, like this is so specific, but like,
40:02
Speaker 2: so Jennifer cool It just did her variety actors on
40:05
Speaker 2: Actors with Jeremy Alan White, and there's a smile that
40:09
Speaker 2: Jennifer does actually at several points in the interview, And
40:12
Speaker 2: when I watched that, I was like, oh my god,
40:14
Speaker 2: that's Jennifer, that's Jennifer. Yes, it's like, that's a smile
40:19
Speaker 2: that's not for the camera, it's her finding him funny.
40:23
Speaker 2: And so like when I when I get to see
40:25
Speaker 2: those moments, I always really love those. But at the
40:27
Speaker 2: same time, I am one of those people where like
40:29
Speaker 2: I don't think we are owed realness when it comes
40:32
Speaker 2: to famous people. They do not owe us that. So
40:35
Speaker 2: I can appreciate the performance of celebrity because I understand
40:39
Speaker 2: the fact that, like something that Hunter Shaffer said to
40:41
Speaker 2: me during the u Fouri interview, which I always think about,
40:44
Speaker 2: is like she said, I'm just I'm not interested in
40:45
Speaker 2: being perceived. And I was like, how funny that you're
40:48
Speaker 2: in a line of work where like people are over
40:52
Speaker 2: eager at perceiving you and like understanding you and like
40:56
Speaker 2: prescribing who you are. And I think that that attitude
41:01
Speaker 2: from Hunter is very popular among celebrities. A lack of
41:04
Speaker 2: interest in being perceived and this sort of like dichotomy
41:08
Speaker 2: of existing in an industry where like perception is so.
41:10
Speaker 1: Much reality reality. Tell me about NEPO babies real quick,
41:15
Speaker 1: because then we have a rapid.
41:16
Speaker 2: Fire Neo babies. I love them or of them. Yeah,
41:20
Speaker 2: I think it's like one of those things where like
41:22
Speaker 2: it's long existed, you know what, not to make this comparison,
41:24
Speaker 2: but I'm going to The NEPO baby conversation reminds me
41:27
Speaker 2: of the conversation happening around Pride right now or drag
41:30
Speaker 2: queens right now, and like these things that have long
41:32
Speaker 2: existed that are super uncontroversial suddenly became talking points and
41:36
Speaker 2: everyone like feels like this is such a conversation that
41:40
Speaker 2: needs to be mine. And I'm like, NEPO babies, we
41:43
Speaker 2: we love like this, drag queens, They've existed for so long.
41:49
Speaker 2: None of these things are harming anyone. Let them be.
41:52
Speaker 1: I have a game for you. I don't know how
41:54
Speaker 1: this is gonna land. Okay, it's called Well and the
41:59
Speaker 1: cat togory is Evan Ross Cats. Okay, you're ordered at
42:03
Speaker 1: cats is Delhi?
42:04
Speaker 2: Okay? What am I getting? I'm getting corn beef. I
42:08
Speaker 2: don't like mayonnaise on horn beef because it's just so
42:11
Speaker 2: good there corn, beef rye pickles done?
42:14
Speaker 1: Your favorite hush oooh mustard too?
42:16
Speaker 2: Yeah?
42:16
Speaker 1: Your favorite actor to watch in Cats the movie Jennifrodson.
42:20
Speaker 1: Can you purr like a cat?
42:22
Speaker 2: No?
42:23
Speaker 1: Biggest pop culture catastrophe of twenty twenty three?
42:28
Speaker 2: Choosing my words, I'm gonna save the Olivia Wild Jason
42:34
Speaker 2: sudikis divorce a catastrophe?
42:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree. I'm glad you just said it. What
42:41
Speaker 1: is your pop culture catnip right now?
42:43
Speaker 2: Oh? Gosh, my pop culture catnip. He's an actor named
42:46
Speaker 2: Manu Rios. He's a Spanish actor. He's on the Netflix
42:50
Speaker 2: show Elite where he goes I follow.
42:53
Speaker 1: Whose career would you like to see catapult in twenty
42:55
Speaker 1: twenty four?
42:56
Speaker 2: Oh, that's interesting. Barbie Ferira from Euphoria is someone but
43:00
Speaker 2: I think like deserves She's definitely on my mind. And
43:03
Speaker 2: then Quinta Brunson I would just love to see like
43:05
Speaker 2: her expanded universe. I think her prowess as like a
43:08
Speaker 2: writer is so incredible and like obviously she's doing her
43:11
Speaker 2: thing on Abbot Elementary. I'm excited to like just see
43:14
Speaker 2: more Quinta Brunson projects, who.
43:16
Speaker 1: Is a person or a platform who catalyzed your career.
43:20
Speaker 2: I owe a lot to Andy Cohen in many ways,
43:23
Speaker 2: but like in terms of the blueprint for me is
43:25
Speaker 2: Barbara Walters. If you're interested in this, like what you
43:28
Speaker 2: and I do, it's like you've got to go back
43:29
Speaker 2: and read Audition. I feel like so often when you
43:32
Speaker 2: ask a famous person how they got where they got,
43:34
Speaker 2: they're like or like they go from being like I
43:37
Speaker 2: was doing nothing and then suddenly I'm blah blah, and
43:39
Speaker 2: you're always like, wait a minute, what's the in between?
43:42
Speaker 2: I feel like Audition is such a great book at
43:44
Speaker 2: like walking you through the process of becoming the thing,
43:50
Speaker 2: and people are really bad at talking process.
43:52
Speaker 1: Often well, a lot of it's painful. They want to
43:56
Speaker 1: skip over it. That part sucked.
43:57
Speaker 2: Give me the pain, Give me the pain. Yeah.
44:00
Speaker 1: Which beloved Hollywood woman should be on the Louis Vuitton
44:03
Speaker 1: catwalk in Paris, Oh, the.
44:05
Speaker 2: Louis Vuitton Catwalk, Well, Zendeia would be the obvious choice
44:08
Speaker 2: of the new the new face and body of Louis Vutan.
44:11
Speaker 2: Who do I want to see? Well, I always go older.
44:13
Speaker 1: I'm just I love that choice. Legs, Legs, Legs. Which
44:18
Speaker 1: artist catalog would you like to own.
44:21
Speaker 2: Oh this is interesting. Which artist Kit I would have
44:23
Speaker 2: liked to own.
44:25
Speaker 1: That concludes are Evan Ross Kat's game?
44:30
Speaker 2: I love it, See it's funny. I'm either like really
44:32
Speaker 2: good on the fly or like, I'm like it's like
44:35
Speaker 2: one of the other. Never the in between.
44:36
Speaker 1: It was really good.
44:37
Speaker 2: But that's me. I'm like, I'm extreme.
44:39
Speaker 1: Okay, rapid fires about you? A word or phrase you
44:41
Speaker 1: wish would be retired from Internet culture?
44:44
Speaker 2: Shook because I have converted shook to shaking.
44:48
Speaker 1: I want shook it to be gone?
44:50
Speaker 2: Okay? Agree? Worse it was never in my nomenclature. But agree.
44:53
Speaker 1: A celebrity you would love to get high with?
44:55
Speaker 2: Oh wow, a celebrity I love? Sarahuska Parker.
44:59
Speaker 1: A book that changed your life? Something you think everyone
45:01
Speaker 1: should read beside audition?
45:02
Speaker 2: I Am not Myself these Days by Josh Kilmer Purcell.
45:05
Speaker 1: The smartest decision you've ever made?
45:07
Speaker 2: Taking breaks from social media often?
45:09
Speaker 1: Okay, I do a pretty smart question?
45:14
Speaker 2: Is it the smartest decision I ever made? Who's to say?
45:16
Speaker 1: Who's to say?
45:16
Speaker 2: Yeah? Moving to New York?
45:18
Speaker 1: Okay?
45:20
Speaker 2: Do I read it?
45:21
Speaker 1: Please?
45:23
Speaker 2: What do you need help with most? Right now? I
45:26
Speaker 2: need help planning my wedding.
45:28
Speaker 1: I'm not good at that, but if anybody out there is, yeah, help, okay.
45:33
Speaker 1: Your substack is so fantastic. If people are new to it,
45:37
Speaker 1: what is one article that you would send them to
45:40
Speaker 1: to check out first?
45:41
Speaker 2: I would say to check out my breakdown of the end,
45:44
Speaker 2: just like that trailer, and any of my sort of
45:47
Speaker 2: coverage events, just like that. I will be doing podcast recaps, friend,
45:51
Speaker 2: just like that. I will. It'll be very present with substack.
45:54
Speaker 2: I would say, that's sort of my my interest at
45:57
Speaker 2: the moment, if you can't tell, is very like that focused.
46:00
Speaker 2: So anything on the substack pertaining to that, and it
46:02
Speaker 2: will be an ongoing conversation. I'll have Michael Patrick King
46:06
Speaker 2: coming on Shut Up Evans soon. I have a profile
46:08
Speaker 2: of Michael coming out in British Vogue. There's going to.
46:13
Speaker 1: How she give you? Not even just Vogue Vogue I.
46:16
Speaker 2: Read for British show. I know that, but I would say, yeah, anything,
46:22
Speaker 2: I'm just like that related, just because it's my It's
46:25
Speaker 2: all I can think about.
46:26
Speaker 1: Fantastic. I want to thank the people that make the
46:34
Speaker 1: show possible, Colleen O'Neill, Jill Salama, Carrie O'Keefe and Phil
46:38
Speaker 1: Speed tech. Okay, you know what time it is. Today's
46:42
Speaker 1: a good day. To have a good day.
46:44
Speaker 3: I'll see you next week.
47:00
Speaker 2: No,