Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Zone 7: The Art of Listening, Detective Mike Alcazar on Hostage Negotiation

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Zone 7: The Art of Listening, Detective Mike Alcazar on Hostage Negotiation · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Y'all. Welcome to Zone seven. Tonight, I am talking to
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: somebody who I have admired for a long long time.
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: Michael Alcazar. Let me tell y'all something. Thirty plus years
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: of service with the NYPD Detective Squad, Harlem, Major Case
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: Organized crime detective, second grade hostage negotiator Brooklyn North, worked
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: vice undercover and has been an adjunct professor at John
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: j for fourteen years. So I mean, you know, little
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: bit of street credibility, as they say. But Michael, welcome, Welcome,
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Zone seven.
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: Good morning.
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: You have had several interviews here lately, and some of
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: your statements about Nanccy three has jumped out at me.
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: And I am certain because of your you know, hostays,
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: negotiating training, and expert call outs, this case must have
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: spoken to you a little different. Because she's eighty four,
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: her daughter's high profile. This case was real different, real quick.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: To me. Tell me what your thoughts were when you
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: immediately heard about it.
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: When I first heard it, I did think it was
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: a kidnapping gone bed, And like my good friend Joe
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: Jackalone says, when you respond to scenes like that, you
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: have to treat it like you should treat like missing
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: people like almost immediately like a homicide, so you can
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: preserve all the evidence, you know, process the crime scene.
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: As I listened to the reporting about it, I started
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: thinking that I did throw this idea, and I got
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: beat up a little bit of about it that I
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: thought it was perhaps a burglary gone bed, And then
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: when I saw the video, I just thought that just
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: confirmed to me that this is probably a not well
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: planned out abduction. I still think it's probably like some
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: kind of crime that happened first and then something went wrong.
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: I don't know if Nancy fought back, she recognized somebody,
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: and these abductors panicked and had to take action.
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: And you know, Michael, for me, you know, I adore
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: Joe jackline. But whether it's you or Joe or anybody
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: else that I heard, every single one of us was
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: saying the same thing. Never see anything like it. This
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: is so odd, This is so strange. The placement of
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: the firearm doesn't make sense, the full backpack doesn't make sense.
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: The way he manipulates the flowers is one of the
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: strangest things I've ever seen. I don't understand why he
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: didn't just bust the camera and especially if he have
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: been their days prior, why that wasn't already taken care of.
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: It's just strange. And there's been a lot of people
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: that I know are some of the best detectives that
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: I've ever worked with, that are saying this same mantra,
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: never seen anything like it, strange, odd, peculiar, whatever words
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: they come up with, we're all saying the same thing.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: And when I get to something that's like that, I
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: tend to say, Okay, I've got to accept that. So
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: if we never seen it, there's an element we're missing
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: that we're not understanding. And what I came up with is,
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: I think he's a twenty four. I think he is
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: quite possibly not mentally okay, he's not well. There's something
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: so awful about him. The way he's dressed again, the
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: way he's carrying the weapon, the mouth, flashlight, the flowers,
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: it's just so strange. And if I can't make it
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: make sense, it ain't supposed to. So that's what I
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: have accepted, and I think that's why they have not
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: been able to connect him to her. I think that's
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: why the million dollars is still sitting there, because he
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: doesn't have friends like that he isn't talking to people
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: like that. I believe he probably has a manifesto, but
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: he's kept it quiet. So just jump in a little
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: bit about when you worked hostage situations, whether or not
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: there's a ransom immediately, whether or not there's a note,
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: whether or not there's a phone call. When you start
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: putting together the victimology, what do you look at before
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: you start really concentrating on the perpetrator.
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: Well, very often when we respond to a hostage job
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: now in the NYPD respond to pretty much everything where
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: there is a person barricaded or if they're holding someone hostage.
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: It could be a prisoner and a correctional facility, It
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: could be a domestic, it could be a lone person
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: and a Very often when we get to the scene,
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: we don't get to do the victimology immediately because we're
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: responding right away. You get the call, you're in the
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: area you're going, and we work in teams, so they
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: could be up to five, maybe more negotiators on the scene.
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: You have the negotiator at the door, and then you
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: have the coach right next to him, and then the
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: other people are basically doing the information you just said,
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: gathering any information we can get about the person, like
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: if we're doing somebody behind the door, which is often
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: what I've responded to, hundreds of behind the door situations
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: where there's somebody barricaded or holding somebody hostage, and I
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: rely heavily on my team because, like if I'm at
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: the door talking, I'm relying on my partner, who's coaching me,
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: who's whispering information to me that he's gathering from my
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: other teammates, who's you know, doing the victimology, doing the
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: information on the purp arrests, history, triggers, domestic incidents, anything
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: that we should avoid, and maybe you know so it
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: won't make it a worse situation. We want to basically
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: calm the person down, lower the adrenaline. So it's a
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: team effort. But you're right, we heavily rely on doing
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: a background check. Ideally, you know, when we do, let's
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: say we're doing an interrogation, you have that time to
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: do the victimology, do to the background history and the park,
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: and you prepare well ahead of time for that. But
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: with a hostage job, you kind of have to do
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: it on the fly, and that's where you rely heavily
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: on your team to give you that information that you can,
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: you know, have this conversation with this person holding somebody osage.
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: And you know the team aspect. I think a lot
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: of times people don't understand just how important that is.
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: I mean, you rely on those folks not just for
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: the information, but also say hey, Michael, you're doing great,
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: You're doing really good. You need some water, you know.
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: I think people maybe don't understand just how an adiboy
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: kind of touch on the shoulder, pat on the back
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: that can get you another hour and a half. Like
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: if I just hear somebody say you're doing great, stay
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: with it, you know what I mean, that just kind
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: of helps you get through the next hour, hour and
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: a half, two hours, five hours, whatever it might be.
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: Because you're sitting in a situation where you know what,
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: You've got a man behind the door, but you don't
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: know is this an organized crime? Is it random? Is
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: it stalking? Is it domestic? Like you're having to run
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: through the gamut as you're trying to reach this person,
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: connect with this person and potentially save their life and
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: the hostage.
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, you rely on your training, you rely on your experience,
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: and you're right, you could be talking for an hour
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: or two hours, and you're just doing your best right
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: to lower the adrenaline, to calm down the individuals involved
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: so they don't panic. And sometimes you just run out
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: of words and and you're right when your team is
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: supporting you, and maybe they're writing you a note on
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: a sticky that we just found out about this, this
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: is something you should touch on. It's almost like doing
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: the news with when you're reading like a teleprompter. It
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: is giving you good information that you can work with U.
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: But at the same time, you're doing it live. And
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: it's got to sound like you really care about this person, right,
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: you gotta be. You gott to sound empathetic, that you're
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: you really want a peaceful resolution, you don't want to
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: escalate it, right, you're empathetic. H And all this time
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: you're developing raports. So it's not an exact science, but
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: it's definitely a complicated one. And like you said, I
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: rely heavily on my team and my my supervisors.
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about some real world stuff. Nobody can
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: hardly make you as mad as family. There's history there.
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: They know how to push your buttons. They know things
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: in the past that you're not proud of that. If
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: they bring it up, it's going to be embarrassing or whatever.
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: So if you've got somebody barricaded, you may not need
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: their mama showing up. You may not need their brother
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: or sister showing up, or their wife. So you rely
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: on that team next to you, but also the team
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: outside because here you are. Let's say you're in Harlem
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: and the windows are open because it's hot as fire
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: in August, and you've got somebody barricaded, and then mama's
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: out on the street hollering. You know, You've got to
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: make sure that this person is not going to be
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: agitated more than they already are in a situation. So
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: you've got to figure out when does mama get to tell?
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: When does mama need to be taken down the street?
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: Oh for sure. Yeah, you have to identify those triggers
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: within this individual. Very often, when we have domestics, it's
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: not always a good idea to bring the wife over
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: because or the husband over for that matter, because that
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: might be the reason that we're in this situation right now.
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: I've had I've had situations where I've dealt with a
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: hostage situation where actually friends were very helpful, but they
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: would introduce that the person behind the door would introduce that.
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: But then we have to vet that also because very often,
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: you know, sometimes like we had one situation where this
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: gentleman wasn't a friend. Situation, this gentleman wanted to give
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: me like his jewelry and he wanted me just to
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: give it to his daughter. And and you know, for negotiators,
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: you know, sometimes when people are giving away they're valuables,
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: that's almost like they're saying goodbye, and in fact I
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: might be them saying goodbye and it could lead to
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: something violent. So I often, you know, I just try
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: to talk calmly with them and tell them that they
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: can when this is resolved, and it will be resolved,
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: you can you can give that to your daughter yourself,
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: you know, So that it is a double edged sorry, right,
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: So you have to, like you said, you have to
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: be able to identify what what might aggravate or calm
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: down this person. So again that's where you really rely
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: on the history, any kind of information you can get.
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: You don't want to say anything that will just trigger them,
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: you know, and you do that a lot just by
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: talking to them. And there's a lot of listening. It's
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: a lot of active listening, and that's what makes a
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: good negotiator. You know, I'm I'm Filipino, so I don't
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: talk too much to begin with, I'm very quiet. I'm
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: a really good listener, So I think that comes into play.
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: That's why you and Joe Jack alone could be friends
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: because he talks.
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, if you've seen our podcast, I must just bounce
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: off with. Joe takes the lead and I just add
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: a little bit of color and that works.
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: Well.
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: You always need some kind of a partnership like that.
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: Oh sure, No, the podcast is outstanding, but so is
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: your partnership. You can tell there's trust there, there's respect there,
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: there's genuine friendship, and that makes the difference because you know,
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: whether it's a homicide case that you just called, or
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: an active a hostage situation. I mean, Michael, we're watching
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: the clock. We know in this business. You know that
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: first three hours of a hostage situation, the first five
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: of a missing person, the first forty eight of a homicide. Like,
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: we know, there's a clock. So you know, I think
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: it's important for you to kind of maybe tell us
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: a little bit about when you get the call. As
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: a host negotiator. It's probably forty five minutes to your
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: set up, so you're losing just about an hour before
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: you can get to work.
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah. First responding people are officers are probably
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: the patrol officers, right, and then they ascertain that this
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: is a hostage and we got to notify people. So
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: first they'll notify their boss, the sergeant lieutenant. Then the
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: lieutenant will notify emergency services right our e s U uh,
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: and then maybe they'll know that it is opposed to
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: but we're like always the last to know. They then
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: they notify hostage negotiation team. Now it's now, it's part
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: of the protocol for a while there, you know, e SU.
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: It's always had this kind of like friction between us
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: and and e SU. They ISU likes to boom the door.
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: And I get it if it's a dangerous situation and
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: and you know you have to act quickly one hundred percent,
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: get your ESU, get your swat in there. But ESU
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: dreads it when negotiated a show up because we will
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: talk for you will stay there forever. And I can't
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: tell you how many times I hate to say this,
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: but how many times we've negotiated for hours and then
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: you know, a little bit impatient officer and ESU kind
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: of ruins it because and now our ISU goes to
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: the same training, but in this particular situation, an ESU
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: officer kind of like, we're talking for hours and then
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: we took a break. The person behind the door needed
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: a break, so okay, we'll take a break. I need
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: to break and the ESU guy just decides to bang
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: on the door. He bangs on the door. He goes,
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: come on, you're gonna let us in, and just ruins everything.
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: And the guy behind the door goes, you just want
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: to hurt me, don't you. You just want to kill me, right,
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: that's what you want to do. You want to kill me,
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: And it just now just sets us back further. So yeah,
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: you have to be super patient. You know.
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: Do you remember the show He'll Straight Blues. Yeah, of course, yes,
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: they had the greatest episode that explains exactly what you're
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: talking about, where you know Swatt was to get in there.
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: Let's ran the door, let's you know, throw in some gas,
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: let's drag him out of there, or shoot him through
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: the window. We've got a clear shot either way you
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: want to do it. But let's end this thing right now.
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: And then, of course the Houston negotiator was like, no,
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: I just need a few more hours, and they're like hours,
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: You've got the whole street blocked down, the Mayor's you know,
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: burning down our necks about it. We you know, the
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: six o'clock news is showing up. We look weak, we
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: look ridiculous, you know. And it was just a great
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: display of just the polar opposites of how people want
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: to respond in these situations. But if you can get
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: the right negotiator in there, then lives are going to
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: be saved. That's all there is to it.
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you know, it's it's definitely an interesting dynamic.
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: And over the years you develop a relationship with of
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: course emergency services because they've seen you on the scene.
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: You've seen them on the scene. They're slapping on that
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: ballistic I saw on you. That was before they actually
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: issued us one. We would get e SU to give
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: us their heavy you know, vest because we didn't have
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: it at the time if it called for it. But yeah,
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: you know, it's like seeing family after a while, Like
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: you said, you know, policing is family. You spend more
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: time with officers and detectives than you actually do with
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: your your real family. So you have to have like
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: that relationship that you really care for each other and
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: you and you rely on their expertise and everything to
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: come to a peaceful resolution awfully.
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: Well, you know the training that is involved me and
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: my ex partner Leslie Bailey and I say eggs only
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: because she retired, but we went through the training when
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: we worked for the Fulton County Sheriff's Department, and even
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: though we knew these scenarios were not they were not real.
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: Nobody was actually going to get harmed. You know, you
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: still when you're halfway through it, it feels real and
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: you kind of take on this. I don't know. For me,
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: I didn't want to make a mistake. I didn't want
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: anybody to be hurt, you know. Well, one thing they
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: did on our final testing was they pulled our sheriff,
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: which at the time was Jackie Barrett and the other
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: folks in the class, all the chiefs of police, and
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: as we're going through the stages of how we're setting
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: up how we're going to speak to the people, all
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: of a sudden, our actual sheriff was in our headphones.
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: Michael that it was so intimidating, and even though I
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: knew this wasn't real. I mean, I wasn't going to
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: mess up. I wasn't going to say something to her
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: incorrectly hopefully, but you just, I don't know, it changed,
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: and I just had almost this visceral reaction of oh no,
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: like Jackie is in my ear, Like that shouldn't be.
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: We don't hang out like that. We're not girlfriends. If
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: I see her, it's sheriff. How are you, ma'am? You
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: know what can I do? Yes, ma'am? No, ma'am. That's it.
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: So it was a great shock value for the training
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: because it puts you in that okay, we're not playing
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: anymore kind of environment, which I thought was great. But
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: when you take your training and I loved what you
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: said about rely on your training, that could not be
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: just more solved stated and could not be more accurate.
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: But tell us about one of your call outs where
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: you were either surprised or shocked or thrown off guard,
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: where something happened and you had to immediately go back
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: to that training. Because let me tell y'all something. I
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: want to say this, and I think people get it,
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: but it's just like when you're teaching somebody to drive,
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: you can't possibly give them every scenario they're going to face.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: You just can't. Something's going to happen that you've never experienced.
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: This's going to be just theirs. Well, this is going
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: to be the same thing. If we tried to give
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: every single possible scenario, we wouldn't be able to do it,
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: because there's always going to be something. You think you've
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: got the scene under control, and then you realize this
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: person has a pet tiger, Like, what the heck? Like,
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: nobody's going to prepare for a tiger, Michael, But come on,
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: number one, it's New York City. I know for a
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: fact it's happened. So just give us something where we
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: can just hear you kind of walk us through that. Yes,
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: I had this training and this is what happened.
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: Well, the training is it's extensive. We are trained by
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: psychologists and I was trained by the great Jack Cambri.
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: I don't know if you ever had a conversation with
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: Jackie was my lieutenant hostage. He's legendary. He's he's pretty
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: much known everywhere as the hostage negotiator. Lieutenant. It was
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: my honor. Let me just go back before how it
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: became a negotiator. I like to explain that. So it
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: wasn't like it was something I ever put in for.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: I wasn't like looking for it. I was just doing,
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: you know, working in the night Watch, which is the
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: detective squad for the overnight. So just doing you know,
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: basic basic grunt work in the squad. And there was
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: a shortage and that's how I got the opportunity. There
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: was a shortage of negotiators on the overnights because all
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: the negotiators normally work day tours and four to twelves.
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: So that's when I got the opportunity. My Sergeant Vinni
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: goth god rest Assul asked me if I wanted to
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: join the team because we're on the midnights, and I said, sure, absolutely,
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: And it's a process you put in for it, and
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: it doesn't happen overnight. You still have to be interviewed
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: by Lieutenant Jack Camber. I want to say it's probably
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: one of one of the assignments where nepotism and favoritism
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: doesn't really play because this is an assignment that's very
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: sensitive and you have to be a good fit for
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: this team. So when I finally got my interview with Jack.
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: It was like an hour interview and I don't know
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: if you went through the same thing, but they make
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: you recall events in your life where you had to
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: deal with a lot of trauma. In fact, that's part
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: of the training too. You had to when you're doing
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: the training, you have to get in front of the
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: class and it's about thirty potential negotiators. Then you have
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: to talk about something that was traumatic in your life
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: and how you dealt with it and what helped. I'm
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: telling you it was like a like it was almost
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: like a talk show where people were getting up there
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: and you know, getting very emotional and upset because they're
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: talking about things that happened to them that change their
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: lives and why they want to be a negotiator. And
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: I think most of the negotiators for them, it is
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: a calling. When you get into this assignment. It's not
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: because you know it's on your checklist. It's something you
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: want to do because of something that happened in your
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: past that maybe somebody helped you, or that you overcame
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: something with the help of somebody and now you want
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: to return that favor. Yeah, just it's a really good training.
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: We do the training like every year. I haven't gone
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: back since I've been retired. My own partner, Greg Evanni,
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: is inviting me to go back next year. I haven't
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: gone back because I now I live in Pennsylvania, so
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: it's not so convenient. But okay, So again, most of
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: the jobs I responded to were people behind the door.
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: I mean there's some good ones and some funny ones,
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: like the one I was talking about where the ESU
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: guys was banging the door. That situation was a man
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: with a gun and we weren't sure if he had
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: a hostage. Right. So he's in his apartment in Brooklyn,
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: and the call was that he had somebody in there
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: and he had a gun and he wanted to either
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: commit suicide. I think he was suicidal. So that was challenging.
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: So when I first got called for that, talking about
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: not responding right away, they notified me. I was in Manhattan.
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: I was teaching in college and I get this call
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: that Mike, we have this job in Brooklyn. Can you respond?
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: And I told him I can't. I'm into Manhattan, I'm
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: not on the clock, I'm teaching a three hour class
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: and I can't respond. Right away. And that's the beauty
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: of it, right we have about one hundred negotiators on
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: the roster, so they go to the next person. So
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: I finished that class, three hour class in Manhattan. I
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: get on the train and I call up just to
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: check because I worked in Brooklyn at the time, and
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: they told me that the job is still going and
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: it was right outside the subway, so I walked right
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: over there. So they've been negotiating for about three and
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: a half four hours and then I jump in with
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: my team. Technology comes into play. We were you at
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: I mean, this was oh my god. This was probably
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: before probably like about twenty fifteen. I think we had
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: drone technology already, and I remember ESU was using They
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: had snipers in the building across the way to see
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: what weekend ascertain and we did figure out that this
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: guy was by himself unless the person was in another room,
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: and then we were using drone tech to just kind
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: of like dive in to keep an eye on him,
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: which was very helpful. Drones are amazing, Yeah, because especially
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: in the high rise in Brooklyn. Yeah, it was. It
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: was definitely good to help us assess what exactly, you know,
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: what exactly is going on, you know, unless you climb
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: the fire escape and look in to see what's going on,
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: which is probably not the safest thing. That might you know,
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: make the situation worse. This drone tech was amazing. So
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: what we had was this guy what we thought, we
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: thought he had gone, So now we thought maybe we
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: had a a suicide of potential side. So I was
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: at the door for several hours and then I would
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: switch off again. That's nice thing about a team. If
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: you get tired to take a break, you let the
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: guy know. You know, I'm gonna put my partner on.
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: It's a really good person. I just I just need
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: to do some other work. And they're kind of understanding
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: because you developed this rapport. And I think the guy
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: even said, I get it, Mike, you're tired. You know.
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: I didn't say I was tired, but he said it.
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: So somebody else jumped in, and you know, we just
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: negotiated with this guy. The only thing that ruined it
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: again was su banging on the door because he was
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: His concern was that that, you know, because of everything
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: that's happening currently in policing during that climate, a lot
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: of people being shot and killed by the police, this
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: guy's concerned that we were gonna just shoot him and
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: kill him, and we tried to do our best to
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: reassure him that that's not what was going to happen.
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: But he was really concerned about that. But when we
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: hit that speed bump with ESU banging at the door,
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: and now we have to I had to get back
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: on the door and talk to him again. That's when
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: we found out that he had a friend that that's
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: willing to talk to him, and he mentioned him before
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: and that's what helped resolved it. To make a long
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: story short, this guy, his buddy was really helpful. He
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: was at the door with us. You know, we didn't
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: leave him alone. We had to gear him up, you know,
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: because you know, we suspected this guy had a gun,
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: and he did a really good job helping us resolve it.
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: So that's a situation where a friend or a family
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: member can actually diffuse a situation, probably better than us,
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: because now at this point, this guy had distress for
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: us because of what happened with ESU banging on the door.
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: Have you ever had a situation where you were shocked
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: by something that occurred that you did not know During
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: the suspectology or victimology.
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: No, I think about it. Nothing nothing really surprise me.
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: I was never thrown off again. The bulk of my
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: jobs were, you know, responding to things behind the door,
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: and you know, because we have such a good team
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: and good supervision that all the information was readily available
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: for us. Nothing, nothing really threw me off. I mean,
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: I mean, I mean, it's funny. It's funny how people
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: that are barricaded and we deal with a lot of
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: emotion to disturb people too, and we responded at as
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: a hostage possible hostage job. And it's funny how they
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: who they feel comfortable talking to, whether it's if it's
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: behind the door, if they like talking to you because
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: of your voice, if they like talking to you because
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: you're a woman. We've had a lot of successful negotiations
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: where a female negotiator was a little bit more soothing
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: the the person behind the door felt more comfortable talking
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: to them. I remember a job that my friend Greg
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: Evanni talked to They were therefore like, oh my god,
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: and it had to be like over the weekend, and
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: it finally took a female negotiator on the phone with
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: him and he finally you know, agreed to come out,
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: and I give her credit. I think it was this
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: detective that helped resolve this. I mean, I mean it
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: could have been that Greg broke him down, you know,
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: because hours and hours go by, but I feel like
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: her just swapping the different personalities and voices I think
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: helps a lot a different perspective. Maybe the person behind
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: the door it reminds him of somebody they know that
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: that was probably a positive packed on their life. I
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: remember going to a barricaded one where the she was
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: a victim. She was barricaded, she was a emotionally disturbed,
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: and once we got in, she did she was really
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: not talking to anybody, but she identified me. She goes,
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: she goes, well, I want to talk to him. And
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: it was because I looked like somebody that she worked with,
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: that she was familiar with. And that's when I saw
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: Egeant just said, Okay, Mike, I guess you get You'll
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: talk to her. And just like that, just a little
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: small things like that. How people feel comfortable by your appearance,
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: could be your sex, could be your voice. It's tricky,
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: it's complicated, and I don't know if I'm just rambling
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: on because I'm just thinking of it.
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: No, you're doing great, because I think there's so much
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: And this is what happens. All of a sudden, your
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: mind starts going to all these different cases. And you
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: know you mentioned something else really important, and you know
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: you're talking about the support of the team, but you
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: also mentioned your family. And I'll tell you having that
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: family support the family understanding that you know, you're called
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: out all kinds of days and nights and holidays because
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: you know, I mentioned my old partner, Leslie. You know,
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: she got home after a twelve hour shift one time
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: and her husband, Jack was like, well, my stomach thinks
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: my throat's been cut, you know, meaning he's hungry. And
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: so she was like she just had that. You know,
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: sometimes you can take things better than other days, and
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: this is the day she just couldn't take it. And
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: she's like, you know, Jack, you're retired, you're a retired firefighter.
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: You were here all day. You could have made dinner,
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: you could actually have dinner. Wait, no, me know when
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: I've been out all this time. So she's just given
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: it to him and she says, you know what, I'm
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: going to wait on dinner. Let's just see what you know,
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: you prepare well. He turns to her and he goes,
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: I thought you were hoth just to go share. You're
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: not making me feel comfortable. You're not trying to connect
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: with me, he said. And I know for a fact
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: you're supposed to offer me a pizza, So you know,
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: I think that's funny.
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: You just made me remind I can't tell you how
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: many hostage jobs I resolved by just offering him like
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: a sandwich from a double dega. Yes, we had one job.
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: This guy had a machete. He was he was in
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: the apartment with his family. He first resigning police officers,
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: you know, he he he came out with this machete
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: and ran back in. That's when they called us. So
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: we're at the door talking to this guy. It's early morning,
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: so I'm sure he didn't have breakfast yet. And we
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: resolved it by just telling him, listen, you know you're
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: not going to jail. We know you have a you know,
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: a mental history. We just want to get you checked out.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: What else can we do for you? And he asked
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: for a sandwich at this favorable dagga around the corner.
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: That's what we did. We got them in some kind
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: of an egg and cheese sandwich at the bodego. He
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: got them and he came right out. And sometimes it's
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: as simple as that.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: Amen. But you know that's a basic need. People need
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: to have something to eat, they need shelter, they need
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: to feel protected, they need to make sure or let
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: me say it this way, let me go back. Sorry,
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: three two one, But those basic needs. Something to eat,
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: something to drink. I mean, you will feel better. It
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: sounds crazy, but it's true. It works on a six
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: month old, it's going to work on a sixty year old. Well, look,
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: before we conclude this evening, which I could talk to
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: you all night long, why don't you tell us how
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: you made detective? How did that come about?
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: So in the NYPD, to make detective, you have to
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: do eighteen months of investigative work. And I made detective
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: in in Vice. But it wasn't so easy because I
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: didn't have any phone calls, I didn't have any hooks,
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: I didn't have anybody that can get me into this
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: investigative unit. What I did have was that I was Filipino,
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: and when I went for my interview, the sergeant liked
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: the way I look because he thought I'd be a
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: good under cover because I don't look like a police officer.
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: So I did my first stint in vice. It was
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: a temporary six month assignment in Queens. I did really well,
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: but you know, some people have bigger phone calls, so
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: I had none. So in six months I went back
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: to patrol. Back to patrol, no meal, but I have
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: I have six months under my belt of investigative time.
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: The goal is to get that eighteen So I went
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: back to patrol in the seventh seven precinct in Brooklyn
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: and came another opportunity to put in for another like
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: after a year, for another six month temporary, and I
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: did so I put in for that. Still no phone call,
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: and as I'm doing my work, it was during the
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: time when nine to eleven happened. So I was an
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: undercover temporary assignment in Brooklyn this time not Queens, and
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: nine to eleven happened. And during that time there was
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: no movement in the department. Every assignment froze. You're not
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: being transferred because we're dealing with this. So my six
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: month time there turned into finally eighteenth. Actually I stayed
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: there for five years, but I earned my eighteen months
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: because of that. Tragedy. I got promoted to detective because again,
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: there was no movement. If it wasn't for that horrific
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: event that happened to our city, I think I would
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: have been back on control and I'd probably be like
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: a mounted cop, which is another assignment I was actually
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: vying for. So you know, everything happens for a reason,
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: and I think, you know, I did five years and
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: vice isn't undercover, and it became like probably one of
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: my best assignments I did in the NYPD.
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: Michael, how did Vice play a role post not eleven?
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: You were just gathering intel, You were just meeting with
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: anybody that you could in the underworld.
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: No, during that time when it first happened, we were
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: basically just uniform presence. We were just we were assigned
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: to Ground zero for weeks when it first happened, So
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: we went there, you know, like everyone thought at the time,
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: we thought it was you know, that day, we thought
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: it was a rescue effort. Very soon we found out
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: it was basically just a recovery effort because everybody perish.
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: So we were there just securing the perimeter. I don't
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: I was still a police officer. I wasn't promoted yet
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: to a detective, so we would just secure the perimeter.
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: And you know, none of us had proper EQUIPM and
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: we didn't have proper ppees. We were just there wearing
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: whatever paper masks that EMS gave us. So that's another story.
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: Uh.
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: We we were sent to the dump, the Staten Island
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: Dump to sift through. We did that. We sift through
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: the evidence that they recovered from from from the World
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: Trade signer they transferred over to the Staten Island Dump
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: and we we detected we're not lad, people were not criminalists,
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: and we're sifting through the dirt to find any kind
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: of evidence that we could put and it was very strange,
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: kind of disorganized, you know, basically we were just doing
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: the best that we could.
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: Uh.
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: Talking about processing a large crime scene, right, so it
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: was a lot of evidence that we were recovering and
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: and whatever we found we would just put on the
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: in the tents and then of course the people assigned
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: to it would go through it. And uh, that was
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: that was very sad. Actually, I remember shifting through the
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: dirt and finding like a Christmas ornament that I'm sure
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: this person bought for that Christmas and they probably never
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: you know, got to they never got to use it, sure,
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: assuming they perish. So yeah, that was that was very traumatic.
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: You don't realize how much work police officers do, and
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: you know, we do all these things and there's really
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: no really no psychological debriefing, right what we see, what
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: we experience. You don't bring it home. If your loved
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: ones are not law enforcement, you can't. You know, you
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: can't share that with him because it's why you know,
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: you don't want to see it and you don't want
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: to share it with them. So, like you said, the
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: only family you can talk to is other detectives, other
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: police officers who experience the same thing.
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: Well, you earned that shield, and I just can't thank
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: you enough for your service. I mean, you're talking about
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: thirty plus years and now one to eleven was just
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: one of those traumatic events. But we thank you so much.
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: Oh thanks for having me on, Cheryl.
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: I'm going to end Zone seven the way I always
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: do with a quote. Successful negotiation is not about getting
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: to yes. It's about mastering no and understanding what the
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: path to agreement is. Chris Voss, former FBI hostage negotiator.
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: I'm Cheryl McCollum and this is Zone seven,