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Feminist Movie Friday: The Star Wars Sequels · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:05
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Smitha and welcome to Steph.
0:07
Speaker 1: I never told your protection. I heart Radio, Samantha. As
0:19
Speaker 1: as movie theaters are slowly opening, I have some friends
0:23
Speaker 1: that went to the movies last week. Oh my gosh,
0:28
Speaker 1: do you have any memorable theater experiences? So I am
0:35
Speaker 1: not a movie goer, like I don't love it. And
0:38
Speaker 1: the only reason I would actually go to a movie
0:41
Speaker 1: is I feel like for action movies because to me,
0:46
Speaker 1: that's the intense. The intensity of that is the biggest
0:51
Speaker 1: draw where you get to see like the booms and
0:53
Speaker 1: the you know, yeah you heard me, I said the booms.
0:57
Speaker 1: I feel like the ones that I remember best are
1:00
Speaker 1: the ones that I went to like late night. So
1:03
Speaker 1: one of them would be a Harry Potter movie, enjoying
1:06
Speaker 1: that I remember, I know exactly where I was sitting.
1:08
Speaker 1: And then one of them would be the Twilight movie
1:12
Speaker 1: and there was a lot of love to that. And
1:13
Speaker 1: then the last one I think is you and I
1:16
Speaker 1: and a couple of friends going to see Spider Verse.
1:19
Speaker 1: Yeah that was good. That was super Bowl. Yeah. So
1:27
Speaker 1: I love going to the movies, and part of that
1:30
Speaker 1: is my dad was a huge movie goer and that
1:33
Speaker 1: was like our special family thing and um and living
1:37
Speaker 1: in small town, that was one of the few we
1:39
Speaker 1: still had to drive thirty minutes to movie theater. But
1:42
Speaker 1: it was something we did as a family, and I
1:44
Speaker 1: am a huge nerd, so I dressed up and went
1:48
Speaker 1: to movies at midnight. I did most of the Harry
1:51
Speaker 1: Potter movies and some Star Wars movies. I've been to
1:55
Speaker 1: some premiers that was really cool. But yeah, I have
1:59
Speaker 1: a lot of I've had a lot of fun times
2:01
Speaker 1: at movie theaters and I have missed it. I also
2:03
Speaker 1: enjoy going to the movies by myself in the middle
2:05
Speaker 1: of the day, right. Actually, that's probably my preference because
2:09
Speaker 1: to me, unless it's like a's something like that, you
2:11
Speaker 1: want to talk to each other, be like really excited
2:13
Speaker 1: about I just want to sit in silence and watch
2:16
Speaker 1: the movie. Like I think it's the worst place for
2:18
Speaker 1: a date because I'm like, you don't get to know
2:19
Speaker 1: each other. Yes, that is true. I I think I
2:25
Speaker 1: told the story before. But when I was in college,
2:28
Speaker 1: my roommate and I had a standing date on Friday
2:30
Speaker 1: where we would go to La Paria and then we
2:33
Speaker 1: would go see whatever movie, no matter if, like we
2:36
Speaker 1: thought it was gonna be good or bad at Atlantic
2:38
Speaker 1: Station because we had a student discount tickets for three dollars,
2:41
Speaker 1: so it's like, well, what's the loss. Yeah, I we'll
2:43
Speaker 1: go see Resident Evil Afterlife. Sure we will. And it
2:47
Speaker 1: was so fun. I loved it so much. But I
2:51
Speaker 1: have some fun memories with the movies we're talking today,
2:53
Speaker 1: which for this feminist movie Friday, we are wrapping up
2:57
Speaker 1: or look at Star Wars with these Star Wars sequel holes,
3:01
Speaker 1: and there are going to be some spoilers if you
3:04
Speaker 1: have not seen them all, although we did accidentally spoil
3:07
Speaker 1: it in a Monday many a couple of months back,
3:09
Speaker 1: so sorry about that. And yes, we promised that the
3:12
Speaker 1: Star Wars movie talk is coming to an end for
3:14
Speaker 1: now because we still want to get Holly from stuff
3:17
Speaker 1: you miss in history class. To talk about Rogue one.
3:19
Speaker 1: They are definitely Star Wars characters women characters that I
3:23
Speaker 1: am looking at discussing for fictional women around the world.
3:27
Speaker 1: So never fear if that's something you're worried about, although
3:31
Speaker 1: I doubt anyone is worried about it. I was gonna say,
3:34
Speaker 1: there's no way we're done like that. That's very like
3:38
Speaker 1: open the air. There's no such thing as done when
3:40
Speaker 1: it comes to Star Wars in Annie's world. So they
3:44
Speaker 1: will absolutely be more Star Wars, just not specifically about
3:48
Speaker 1: the movie. We're gonna take about the movies, the trilogies, Yes,
3:53
Speaker 1: for now, for now, And we did watch the Ewok
3:56
Speaker 1: special and I am in love with Teak and I
3:59
Speaker 1: love him. I'm very happy. I'm very happy that t
4:04
Speaker 1: and you connected on such a deep level. Still mad
4:06
Speaker 1: at the movie though, if if you have to SNEA plus,
4:09
Speaker 1: they're on the vintage section of the Star Wars content
4:12
Speaker 1: now so you can, you too, can watch Wilford Brimley
4:17
Speaker 1: in a very strange Star Wars movie. I still hold
4:23
Speaker 1: to the fact that is better than the holiday specials.
4:26
Speaker 1: You haven't seen all the holiday specials, so I saw enough.
4:29
Speaker 1: You did not see the good part of it. Anyway. Anyway,
4:33
Speaker 1: one day when we're turning and talking about the Holidays
4:35
Speaker 1: special b Arthur discussion. Finally, Yes, and as we said
4:38
Speaker 1: in our previous Star Wars Feminist movie episodes, these are
4:41
Speaker 1: a bit different than what we normally do, and that
4:43
Speaker 1: we're covering three movies virtually. I was going to talk
4:47
Speaker 1: about Rogue one and Solo too, but I was like, start,
4:49
Speaker 1: we're just doing the sequel trilogy, and we're focusing primarily
4:52
Speaker 1: on the women and them either in front or behind
4:54
Speaker 1: the scenes. And you can see the episode Bridget and
4:56
Speaker 1: I did on the feminism of Star Wars called the
4:58
Speaker 1: Filmpio Strikes by Uck for more discussion on these movies specifically,
5:04
Speaker 1: and on toys customing, toxic fandom and toxic masculinity and
5:09
Speaker 1: man's playing, so much discussion of man's playing and more.
5:12
Speaker 1: We recently re ran that as a classic, so definitely
5:15
Speaker 1: check it out right, Yes, But I the reason I
5:18
Speaker 1: asked that question is because when the sequel trilogy came out,
5:23
Speaker 1: just like the prequel trilogy, there was so, so, so
5:26
Speaker 1: so much excitement and at the time, you know it
5:29
Speaker 1: was announced like J. J. Abrams is gonna do it,
5:31
Speaker 1: and it's gonna be so cool and sleek. And I
5:35
Speaker 1: when The Fourth Awakens, the first one came out, I
5:37
Speaker 1: was in Canada with my parents and I was determined
5:43
Speaker 1: that we had to get tickets and see it, but
5:46
Speaker 1: we I wasn't sure where we were going to be,
5:48
Speaker 1: so it's sort of a last minute thing and it
5:50
Speaker 1: was this enormous theater. We ended up seeing it in
5:53
Speaker 1: it's freezing, and we had to sit in the very
5:55
Speaker 1: front room and I just I just remember staring up
6:00
Speaker 1: at it and and everyone was so excited and dressed up,
6:04
Speaker 1: and we'd snuck in like chocolate from a local chocolate teer.
6:08
Speaker 1: And it was a lovely, lovely time. Yes, And then
6:14
Speaker 1: I saw The Last Jedi. The next one. I remember
6:17
Speaker 1: that because I holiday party or office holiday party was
6:20
Speaker 1: the night came out and like no one showed up
6:22
Speaker 1: because we're all nerds and we were all watching The
6:25
Speaker 1: Last Jedi. And then the most recent one, Rise of Skywalker,
6:29
Speaker 1: was one of the last movies I saw in theaters
6:31
Speaker 1: before the pandemic shut everything down. And uh, I think
6:35
Speaker 1: I've told this story before. I had a lovely time.
6:38
Speaker 1: I don't think it's a good movie, but I had
6:40
Speaker 1: a lot of fun. Was it a re release because
6:43
Speaker 1: it was already it had been out several days nineteen, No,
6:46
Speaker 1: it came out in twenty nineteen and twenty nineteen, and
6:49
Speaker 1: then the pandemic came out. Yeah, he med twin nineteen. Seriously,
6:56
Speaker 1: remember this The Knives Out I did with Caroline from
6:59
Speaker 1: Stuff whatever told you, un lady, Like, we saw Knives
7:01
Speaker 1: Out and the Rise of Skywalker together. Wow, because I
7:06
Speaker 1: wasn't a part of that world. It felt like it
7:08
Speaker 1: was like, yeah, it's been out forever, right, it isn't
7:10
Speaker 1: at two thousand and sixteen. Nope. Okay, yeah, okay, yeah,
7:16
Speaker 1: let's get into the plot. Oh yeah, so yeah, we're
7:19
Speaker 1: talking about the sequels. Obviously, the Force Awakens, which came
7:22
Speaker 1: out in two thousand fifteen. Yeah, I'm way off, yell.
7:24
Speaker 1: The Last Jedi came out in two thousands seventeen, and
7:27
Speaker 1: The Rise of Skywalker came out in two thousand nineteen.
7:31
Speaker 1: I don't know how all of that bladed together to me,
7:33
Speaker 1: I guess because seemed like five years in the making
7:36
Speaker 1: that maybe everything just seemed so gapped out. So here's
7:41
Speaker 1: a plot in a nutshell. A new evil empire called
7:44
Speaker 1: the First Order has risen and there's a resistance led
7:47
Speaker 1: by General Leo or Ghana, who is finding them along
7:51
Speaker 1: with Pilot Po, Demon X, Dormtrooper Finn, and Forced Sensitive Ray,
7:56
Speaker 1: eventually leading to a massive confrontation at the First Order
8:00
Speaker 1: and the Resistance forces, and a confrontation between Ray and
8:03
Speaker 1: all the Jedi and Darth Sidious Emperor Palpatine all the
8:07
Speaker 1: Sith You also have the Scott Walker family drama with
8:10
Speaker 1: Kylo Rin Ben Solo, who has fallen through the Dark
8:13
Speaker 1: Side and fights with the First Order. The Forces of
8:16
Speaker 1: Good are victorious and Ray claims that last name of
8:19
Speaker 1: Skywalker Ape and Solo comes back to the light side. Yea,
8:23
Speaker 1: all the cameos are There are two d two c
8:26
Speaker 1: threp O, Chewbacca, Lando, Han, Luke, and Land. All three
8:31
Speaker 1: of them die throughout these movies, so there you go,
8:35
Speaker 1: one dies in each of them. And yeah, if the
8:37
Speaker 1: plot sounds familiar. That was one of the biggest criticisms
8:40
Speaker 1: of these films is that there was so much fan
8:43
Speaker 1: service going on. They were just trying really hard to
8:47
Speaker 1: please the fans, so they essentially did the exact same thing.
8:51
Speaker 1: There's a death star which is called star Killer Base.
8:53
Speaker 1: There's a droid caring Plans that starts off everything. There's
8:56
Speaker 1: a nineteen year old four sensitive on a desert planet.
9:00
Speaker 1: Especially like the the first and third one, very similar
9:06
Speaker 1: to the first and third of the original trilogy. And
9:10
Speaker 1: that is the trouble of nostalgia, which we've talked about
9:12
Speaker 1: before and again. These are meant to be kids movies,
9:16
Speaker 1: Hopefully adults will enjoy them. As well. But if a
9:19
Speaker 1: lot of adults go in and they're like, this better
9:21
Speaker 1: not ruined what I loved about my childhood and it's
9:24
Speaker 1: not the exact same thing, and they get really mad,
9:25
Speaker 1: which was kind of ridiculous. And yes, just like the prequels,
9:29
Speaker 1: there was so much anticipation about these movies, particularly the
9:33
Speaker 1: first one, The Force Awakens, and there was so much
9:36
Speaker 1: backlash from mainly toxic dudes about s j w's ruining
9:40
Speaker 1: Star Wars, like the level of women being harassed off
9:42
Speaker 1: social media toxicity. The Last Jed I Am particular, really
9:47
Speaker 1: really really made these dudes mad, and some claim that
9:50
Speaker 1: the backlash to that film is part of the reason
9:52
Speaker 1: the last film in this trilogy feels like it dismisses
9:56
Speaker 1: everything that happened in the previous film, especially around Raise heritage,
10:01
Speaker 1: and there's commentary about that in the Last Jedi, like
10:05
Speaker 1: Kyler Rence says, let the past ie kill it if
10:07
Speaker 1: you have to um, and then it churned around like
10:11
Speaker 1: Raised Parents went from being a nobody in the Last
10:13
Speaker 1: Jedi to give the characters space to grow, like you
10:17
Speaker 1: don't have to be related to Skywalker family to have
10:21
Speaker 1: a story or the Force to democratizing the force to
10:25
Speaker 1: basically switching that whole narative up and as disgust in
10:29
Speaker 1: the Fampire strikes Back episode down with Disney's treatment of
10:33
Speaker 1: franchises and its fan boys raised an army of bots
10:36
Speaker 1: to tank the Last Jedies Rotten Tomato score. And they
10:39
Speaker 1: said it was because introducing more females characters into the
10:42
Speaker 1: franchises movement, it's franchise universe. They didn't like that making
10:46
Speaker 1: one of the male characters quote a victim of the
10:48
Speaker 1: anti man splanning movement, and that two of the male
10:52
Speaker 1: characters might quote turn gay. Some called the new trilogy
10:56
Speaker 1: feminist propaganda, and yeah, go listen to that episode. We
11:01
Speaker 1: just reran it to talk hearing more about this because
11:03
Speaker 1: they're the quotes, the quotes from these angry fan boys.
11:06
Speaker 1: We had so many. They're so shocking and like wow,
11:09
Speaker 1: wow dudes. And yeah, there's so much backlash that there
11:15
Speaker 1: are a million rumors that they're going to redo the sequels.
11:19
Speaker 1: I said, I see some every day, like the New ones.
11:22
Speaker 1: But still they made a lot of money, which is
11:24
Speaker 1: always what cracks me up, is like, but you hated
11:26
Speaker 1: them a lot, but they sure to make a lot, right,
11:30
Speaker 1: and you still have a conspiracy theory that you think
11:33
Speaker 1: this is going to come back as better than it
11:35
Speaker 1: was originally received. Right, Oh yeah, yea yeah. I think
11:41
Speaker 1: that give it some time and space and people are
11:44
Speaker 1: going to mellow out, because I always get the example. Um,
11:47
Speaker 1: when The Empire Strikes Back came out, which is now
11:50
Speaker 1: pretty widely regarded as the best st Hours movie, people
11:53
Speaker 1: didn't like it. They didn't like it was sad, they
11:55
Speaker 1: thought it was dark. It doesn't really have an ending necessarily,
11:59
Speaker 1: so people were happy with it. But now it's well
12:03
Speaker 1: beloved and one of the yes. So let's move on
12:07
Speaker 1: to the character. So we're gonna talk about Ray. So
12:09
Speaker 1: when we first meet Ray, she's a nineteen year old
12:12
Speaker 1: scavenger living lonely life on the desert planet of Jacko.
12:16
Speaker 1: Though she has clearly had a tough and isolated existence,
12:20
Speaker 1: she's still friendly, cheerful, hopeful, and has a strong moral
12:23
Speaker 1: compass and desires to help people. She's a good mechanic, independent,
12:28
Speaker 1: strong willed, and a creative and talented scavenger. And now
12:31
Speaker 1: so she was able to strike out on her own,
12:34
Speaker 1: so she lives on meager portions usually has always has.
12:38
Speaker 1: Her parents left her on Jacko in a traumatic experience
12:41
Speaker 1: as a child, and she's waiting for them to return,
12:43
Speaker 1: despite being an excellent pilot, wanting more than jack who
12:46
Speaker 1: has to offer so yes. With that changes, she eventually
12:49
Speaker 1: meets Joyed, b B eight and Finn and they are
12:52
Speaker 1: forced to flee Jacko on the Bolognian Falcon, where they
12:54
Speaker 1: reconnect with Han Solo to and eventually Leah, who takes
12:57
Speaker 1: Ray under her wing. Ray discovers she is for Sensitive
13:00
Speaker 1: and journeys to find Luke Skywalker, who has been missing
13:03
Speaker 1: ever since his nephew been Ben Solo slaughtered all of
13:06
Speaker 1: Luke's Padawans and felt to the dark to become Kylo Wren.
13:10
Speaker 1: Ray convinces a really reticent and grumpy Luke to train her,
13:14
Speaker 1: and Luke fears her raw power. She forms a forced
13:17
Speaker 1: diet with Kylo Wren, which is basically Star Wars talk
13:20
Speaker 1: for a fancy bond where you can connect and communicate
13:22
Speaker 1: across bass distances or it's called soulmates in the Force,
13:27
Speaker 1: which doesn't necessarily have to be romantic. The creators when
13:29
Speaker 1: I have their way to point out and she attempts
13:31
Speaker 1: to sway him and bring him back to the light.
13:33
Speaker 1: Eventually Ray succeeds, just as we learned that Ray is
13:36
Speaker 1: actually Emperor Palpatine's granddaughter, who might also be her uncle
13:40
Speaker 1: or grandmother. Cloning has complicated you all, and she has
13:43
Speaker 1: a legacy of the Sith, which are evil Jedi living
13:47
Speaker 1: inside of her. I just realized some people might really
13:50
Speaker 1: argue with me about the evil Jedi. Think, oh, well,
13:53
Speaker 1: that's all. That's a conversation for different days. They're Dark
13:55
Speaker 1: Side users, and she begins to believe that she is
13:59
Speaker 1: innately fall Ray fights back the call of the dark Side,
14:03
Speaker 1: and with the help of all of the Jedi living
14:05
Speaker 1: inside of her, she's able to defeat Palpatine and all
14:09
Speaker 1: of the Sith living inside of him. With Luke and
14:11
Speaker 1: Lane's blessing, she claims the name of Skywalker and continues
14:14
Speaker 1: the teachings of the Jedi, including with Finn, who it's
14:20
Speaker 1: poor sensitive and they never explained that in the movie
14:22
Speaker 1: and later they were like obviously, but in the new
14:26
Speaker 1: Lego Holiday special that part of the plot is Ray
14:29
Speaker 1: trying to tick O how to train Finn in the
14:31
Speaker 1: ways of the Force. Yes, so much Skywalker tragedy. They
14:37
Speaker 1: make this so sad. I mean, they don't exist anymore,
14:41
Speaker 1: So don't bring me down even further. I'm just saying
14:44
Speaker 1: that they've been wiped out. Okay. So, ray has appeared
14:47
Speaker 1: in comics, specials, TV shows, and video games. It is
14:51
Speaker 1: rumored she's going to be in season three of The Mandalorian.
14:54
Speaker 1: While there was backlash against her, overall, she was pretty
14:57
Speaker 1: well received and Daisy Ridley's portral of her one her
15:00
Speaker 1: several awards. So there's that she has a big deal
15:02
Speaker 1: of a character in a lot of ways. She was
15:04
Speaker 1: a woman and the main character of a massive franchise
15:07
Speaker 1: who wasn't sexualized. Her costuming was sensible and functional. No
15:11
Speaker 1: metal bikinis here. She's competent, powerful, smart, and still Simon
15:15
Speaker 1: in all the same The writers and creators of Raye J. J.
15:18
Speaker 1: Abrams Lawrence cast them from the original trilogy and Michael
15:21
Speaker 1: aren't so all dudes here. I wanted to create the
15:26
Speaker 1: new generations. Luke Skywalker quote un group, which is why
15:30
Speaker 1: he's barely in the first film, not at all until
15:33
Speaker 1: the end. They didn't want him to overshadow her introduction,
15:36
Speaker 1: so it's kind of nice to let her form her
15:38
Speaker 1: character and let people get to know her. They always
15:40
Speaker 1: intended for her to be the central character of all
15:42
Speaker 1: of these films and really spoke about the soft girl
15:45
Speaker 1: power impact she believed the character would have, but that
15:49
Speaker 1: she would resonate with everyone, which is true, and some
15:52
Speaker 1: even labeled this character as a new feminist icon, which
15:55
Speaker 1: I know. They definitely used her in all of the
15:58
Speaker 1: Disney toy and Disney Land and World commercials like they
16:03
Speaker 1: definitely lead in to that, oh for sure. And I
16:06
Speaker 1: do love seeing young girls in Ray costumes. It warms
16:09
Speaker 1: my heart. Yeah. Despite being essential character, though she was
16:13
Speaker 1: frequently left out of Star Wars toy sets. A Monopoly
16:16
Speaker 1: version of The Force Awakens didn't have a Ray figurine
16:18
Speaker 1: a Young Girls let her. Complaining about this went viral.
16:21
Speaker 1: Toymakers said they underestimated demand and or that they were
16:24
Speaker 1: trying to keep how important she was a secret, so
16:27
Speaker 1: they didn't include her. Again, She's all supposed to be
16:29
Speaker 1: the main character, so I'm kind of like, I don't
16:32
Speaker 1: get that. J. J. Abrams said about this, I will
16:37
Speaker 1: say that it seems preposterous and wrong that the main
16:39
Speaker 1: character of the movie is not well represented and what
16:41
Speaker 1: is clearly a huge piece of the Star Wars world
16:43
Speaker 1: in terms of merchandizing. And you can see our past
16:46
Speaker 1: episodes on the power of toys and the lack of
16:48
Speaker 1: female action figures. But that's something else that in some
16:51
Speaker 1: ways negatively impacted these movies. Samantha had to listen to
16:55
Speaker 1: me complain about this. Uh, creative decisions made around toys
16:58
Speaker 1: and merchandizing. Uh, there are some scenes where it is
17:01
Speaker 1: so obvious that they did it for toys at least
17:03
Speaker 1: to be like yeah, yeah, for a better worse. The
17:07
Speaker 1: Star Wars merchandise set the standard for virchandizing the Star
17:11
Speaker 1: Wars franchise did. And that I mean similarly like I
17:15
Speaker 1: love Return of the Jedi, but that was a complain
17:16
Speaker 1: about Return of the jedis you introduced these walks to
17:19
Speaker 1: sell some toys, and then you made a bunch of
17:21
Speaker 1: specials about the Hawks ceiling really hard into the walks.
17:26
Speaker 1: So we did want to talk about some of the
17:28
Speaker 1: specific criticisms people have about the character of Ray. But
17:31
Speaker 1: first we're going to pause for a quick break for
17:33
Speaker 1: word from our sponsor, every back, Thank you sponsor. Yeah.
17:50
Speaker 1: So let's talk about some of the main criticisms. And
17:52
Speaker 1: there's plenty people had about Ray, and reminder, it's cool
17:55
Speaker 1: to not like something and to critique writing. But a
17:58
Speaker 1: lot of what we're talking about here is the sexiest bs. Yes. Yes,
18:04
Speaker 1: So one of the biggest ones that I hear a
18:05
Speaker 1: lot is that basically she was too good too fast,
18:09
Speaker 1: or that she is a merry Sue. Essentially, that she
18:12
Speaker 1: got she got really good, way too quickly. She was
18:15
Speaker 1: able to resist Kylo Ren's brain probe, she impressed, slashed
18:18
Speaker 1: her past Han Solo's expectations. She bested and injured Kyler
18:22
Speaker 1: In in a lightsaber battle without any training. I maintained,
18:25
Speaker 1: why aren't we asking if Kylo Reren is just bad?
18:28
Speaker 1: Why aren't we asking if Kyler Wren it's just bad?
18:31
Speaker 1: When we have these questions if Ray was a white dude,
18:34
Speaker 1: I'm not so sure we would. But okay, do you
18:37
Speaker 1: know what a Mary Sue is? Man not? There's oh yeah, okay.
18:44
Speaker 1: Well this actually did start as a fan fiction term,
18:47
Speaker 1: but it got accepted into mainstream media. And it's a
18:52
Speaker 1: fictional character who is perfect in every way, usually an
18:57
Speaker 1: idealized wish fulfillment of the author. So I feel like
19:02
Speaker 1: we must have talked about this sum in the fan
19:03
Speaker 1: fiction episode, But I don't think there's anything wrong with
19:07
Speaker 1: writing a Mary Sue. I don't think it's great writing,
19:10
Speaker 1: but I think it is a natural state of being
19:13
Speaker 1: a young girl where you want to write a story
19:15
Speaker 1: and in that story, you're perfect and everyone loves you
19:19
Speaker 1: and wants to be around you. I mean, it just
19:23
Speaker 1: makes sense to me. But that's also how male writers
19:26
Speaker 1: write girls like elusive but perfect, right, sexy but not
19:30
Speaker 1: too sexy, all of those things. Yeah. Yes, And daisically
19:35
Speaker 1: really has actually spoken out about this when people have
19:38
Speaker 1: asked about the Mary Sue saying, and she said, there's
19:40
Speaker 1: no such thing, as Ryan Craig basically pointing out the
19:43
Speaker 1: term is inherently a sexist and that plenty of male
19:46
Speaker 1: characters in this franchise fit fat criteria. I will say,
19:51
Speaker 1: there is a Gary stew Are, there's a there's another
19:55
Speaker 1: term for it, but there's so few and far between,
19:58
Speaker 1: and you don't hear that critics as a maid to
20:00
Speaker 1: actors or that represent characters. That's like a real need
20:03
Speaker 1: fanation thing, right. That term hasn't made it out into mainstream,
20:08
Speaker 1: and I think part of this problem is the increased
20:10
Speaker 1: budget and special effects available for these movies. Mark Hamill
20:14
Speaker 1: wanted Luke Skywalker to be way more badass and return
20:17
Speaker 1: the Jedi. But George Lucas was like, that isn't what
20:19
Speaker 1: this is about. But also we don't have the money
20:21
Speaker 1: or technology, and people still well seeing that movie for
20:25
Speaker 1: the first time in theaters had a similar complaint that
20:28
Speaker 1: Luke went from someone who really got their ask kicked
20:30
Speaker 1: and the Empire strikes back and then with suddenly a
20:32
Speaker 1: Jedi knight who took down like Jaba's whole thing. Also,
20:36
Speaker 1: I get that you like Luke fanboys, I really do,
20:39
Speaker 1: you have no I do, but it is it is
20:41
Speaker 1: possible that someone was more but natural than him, or
20:44
Speaker 1: better at picking things up more quickly than him. It's possible, um.
20:50
Speaker 1: And also Luke was an inspiration to her and two
20:53
Speaker 1: people all over the galaxy. That was one of the
20:54
Speaker 1: main messages of the sequel trilogy of like the Last
20:58
Speaker 1: Jedi in particular, and that's Luke didn't really have that
21:03
Speaker 1: he didn't have that example, and she did. And if
21:06
Speaker 1: you've read any of the extended Universe stuff, Luke did
21:09
Speaker 1: become almost god like moth Giddea and the Mandalorian was
21:12
Speaker 1: ready to take his own life rather than face Luke Skywalker.
21:16
Speaker 1: So I basically what I'm saying, I call it forced creep.
21:22
Speaker 1: It just kind of happens where if you have the
21:26
Speaker 1: technology and like, wouldn't this look real cool? I think
21:29
Speaker 1: that it's gonna It's bound to happen. And I've talked
21:32
Speaker 1: about how I didn't really like what happened in Luke storyline,
21:36
Speaker 1: and these a bunch of people didn't, including Mark Hamill
21:38
Speaker 1: the not my Luke Skywalker thing um, because I didn't
21:42
Speaker 1: like because it was sad and messages with my sinemon
21:43
Speaker 1: roal sensibilities and doesn't feel very Luke Skywalker to me.
21:47
Speaker 1: But he lost all his pad once his nephew did
21:49
Speaker 1: it in part because Luke failed. He's the last that again,
21:53
Speaker 1: it made for me watching the recent Mandal Warrian finale
21:56
Speaker 1: really hard, but I mean it makes sense that would
21:59
Speaker 1: really mess you up. And I don't own the fandom,
22:02
Speaker 1: and I think this was a realistic and interesting portrayal.
22:05
Speaker 1: So kt be matter hurt and have criticisms. It's not
22:08
Speaker 1: okay to lash out about it and be hateful or
22:11
Speaker 1: racist or sexist any stuff like that. That's just not cool,
22:16
Speaker 1: not cool um. And then there's a lot of toxic
22:20
Speaker 1: masculinity going on in these purposeful I think of critique
22:25
Speaker 1: like Kyler Wrin and his tantrums. Also, he sucks, that's
22:28
Speaker 1: my that's my opinion, but that's what I think. He's
22:31
Speaker 1: no good as a or a Jedi. But anyway, there
22:35
Speaker 1: is this comparison of the Kyler Ren in general hucks,
22:38
Speaker 1: who are like the two leaders of the first Order,
22:41
Speaker 1: and they're being like big babies and emotional and incompetent
22:45
Speaker 1: and like kind of caddy against each other. Uh. And
22:48
Speaker 1: then you compare that to the like competent, collected leadership
22:52
Speaker 1: of Leiah and Holdo, of like these two women getting
22:54
Speaker 1: stuff done. Some reviews described the last Jedi as women
22:58
Speaker 1: mostly being right and man most Yeah. Yeah. But also
23:08
Speaker 1: there is another area people critique a lot, and that
23:12
Speaker 1: is romance, right, and they ca've handled that way better
23:15
Speaker 1: with raised romance. I'm very confused throughout I keep yelling
23:18
Speaker 1: wired at these people together, Wait, what is happening here?
23:20
Speaker 1: Who are they trying to put together? A lot of
23:22
Speaker 1: it seems somewhat existent and racist, but hey whatever. And
23:25
Speaker 1: the first one it seems that Ray and Finn are
23:27
Speaker 1: going to get together, and the second it's Ray and
23:29
Speaker 1: Kylo Wren, while Finn and Rose now seems to be
23:31
Speaker 1: a thing. And then the third is Kylor Rent and
23:34
Speaker 1: Finn and sort of a triangle. And there's been a
23:36
Speaker 1: lot of behind the scene speculation about why this was
23:39
Speaker 1: that Disney exams. We're worried about the backlash again of
23:42
Speaker 1: an interracial couple if they went the Ray Finn route,
23:45
Speaker 1: because white women should not be with black people apparently.
23:48
Speaker 1: But you know, they're gonna put all the minorities together,
23:50
Speaker 1: because that makes sense, col Um. At the same time,
23:53
Speaker 1: Finn and Poe we're at one time supposed to get together.
23:57
Speaker 1: Both actors expressed their willingness and disappointment that the storyline
24:00
Speaker 1: didn't pin out, and again, yeah, that makes sense because
24:04
Speaker 1: of the fears from higher ups about backlash once again, Um,
24:07
Speaker 1: And there's a cut between two women at the end
24:09
Speaker 1: of the lastestallment. But it feels like more like tokenism
24:12
Speaker 1: to be like, see we're cool, look at us. Extremely
24:19
Speaker 1: brief too. It's like yeah, so fast. Yeah. And also
24:24
Speaker 1: Kylo Red and Slash pen Sola was related to Ray. Yes,
24:28
Speaker 1: it's weird. They're continuing updating Cannon around that, so I
24:31
Speaker 1: guess now they aren't I don't know. It's pretty bessy
24:34
Speaker 1: and their relationship has touches of an abusive wood. But
24:37
Speaker 1: I have now learned no One Palpatine, which was my
24:42
Speaker 1: big question after the Rise of Skywalker, his son and
24:47
Speaker 1: snow cor Strand cast which I suspect is what is
24:49
Speaker 1: up with the Imperials wanting Greggy slash baby Oodes blood
24:52
Speaker 1: in the Mandalorian. But unless I'm wrong, Palpatine forced impregnated
24:56
Speaker 1: Chami Skywalker, who gave birthday Anakin Skywalker, so related, I
25:03
Speaker 1: would think so, I would think so. But hey, but
25:06
Speaker 1: all right, let's let's talk about some of other female
25:08
Speaker 1: characters really quickly, starting with Rose, and we probably will
25:13
Speaker 1: come back and cover these women more in depth, especially
25:15
Speaker 1: if you listeners right into it. Let us know if
25:16
Speaker 1: that's something you would like. But yes, Rose Tycho was
25:20
Speaker 1: played by Kelly Marie Tran, the first one of color
25:23
Speaker 1: to play a leading role in Star Wars films, and
25:25
Speaker 1: in she became the first Asian American woman to appear
25:28
Speaker 1: on the cover of Vanity Fair for her role as
25:31
Speaker 1: the character. Rose was introduced in Rhan Johnson's film The
25:34
Speaker 1: Last Jedi as a loyal resistance officer, a mechanic whose
25:38
Speaker 1: sisters sacrifice hangs over her to most of us anyway,
25:41
Speaker 1: she she wasn't a book prior to this, and she's
25:43
Speaker 1: the protagonist of several comics and appears in TV shows
25:46
Speaker 1: and video games, but most of us were introduced to
25:48
Speaker 1: Rose in this movie. She and her sister had joined
25:51
Speaker 1: the Resistance after watching their homeworld be decimated by the
25:53
Speaker 1: First Order. She's hopeful, determined, creative, open, clever, and loyal.
25:58
Speaker 1: She can see both a bigger picture. In the end
25:59
Speaker 1: of it was making it up. She's instrumental and saving
26:02
Speaker 1: the Resistance and last Jedi. She also serves as sort
26:05
Speaker 1: of an every fan, a fan getting pulled into the action,
26:08
Speaker 1: like when she meets Finn and she's like, are you
26:10
Speaker 1: Finn deefin uh? Sort of a fan stand in yeah
26:14
Speaker 1: she uh. She does climb the ranks and plays a
26:16
Speaker 1: pivotal role in the Rise of Skywalker, and it mostly
26:19
Speaker 1: takes place off screen, leading to speculate that her role
26:23
Speaker 1: had been majorly reduced due to racist and sexist backlash,
26:27
Speaker 1: including her weight, which is stupid. Despite the fact that
26:31
Speaker 1: she was critically very well received. She everybody was so excited.
26:35
Speaker 1: I remember that was the one thing I knew about it,
26:37
Speaker 1: and I was excited. I was like cool. Tran was
26:39
Speaker 1: just about to give up acting when she got this
26:42
Speaker 1: role and struggled with the isolation of filming due to confidentiality.
26:46
Speaker 1: She bonded with the actor John Boyega over it, and
26:49
Speaker 1: she did a lot of work and a lot of
26:50
Speaker 1: training and tapped into her family's experience with the Vietnam War,
26:53
Speaker 1: so she put a lot of effort into it. She did.
26:56
Speaker 1: Tran underwent therapy to deal with all of this online.
26:59
Speaker 1: Her askment it when angry fanboys edited her fan page
27:02
Speaker 1: to include vulgaran racent comments, it made national headlines. Nicole
27:06
Speaker 1: Carlos over at Salon Route. I kept help, but wonder
27:09
Speaker 1: if trans character aligned with the misogynistic and racist stereotype
27:12
Speaker 1: of Asian women as submissive and seductive. With the trolls
27:15
Speaker 1: have still come out of note, some fans and celebrities
27:18
Speaker 1: really came out in support of her, which was beautiful
27:20
Speaker 1: to see and face of all this ugliness, and one
27:23
Speaker 1: study suggested that the attacks on her were perpetrated by
27:26
Speaker 1: Russian bots. Tran wrote an essay about the whole thing
27:30
Speaker 1: for The New York Times called Kelly Marine Tran, I
27:33
Speaker 1: won't be marginalized by online harassment, She wrote. Their words
27:37
Speaker 1: reinforced a narrative I had heard my whole life that
27:39
Speaker 1: I was other, that I didn't belong, that I wasn't
27:41
Speaker 1: good enough, and simply because I wasn't like them, And
27:44
Speaker 1: that feeling, I realized now was and is a shame,
27:47
Speaker 1: A shame for things that made me different, a shame
27:49
Speaker 1: for the culture from which I came from. When she
27:52
Speaker 1: appeared on a panel and Star Wars celebration in tween nineteen,
27:55
Speaker 1: she got a standing ovation and people chanting her name,
27:57
Speaker 1: and she visibly teared up over it. Over at The Independent,
28:01
Speaker 1: Clarice Lowfrey wrote that trans reception was not only heartening,
28:05
Speaker 1: it was a moment of pure relief for so many
28:07
Speaker 1: fans of the franchise, worried that the well had finally
28:09
Speaker 1: been poisoned beyond repair. J. J. Abrams said, co I
28:13
Speaker 1: was grateful to Ryan Johnson for a lot of things
28:15
Speaker 1: he did in episode eight, The Last Jedi, and the
28:18
Speaker 1: greatest for me was casting Kelly Marie. Yeah, but she
28:22
Speaker 1: was barely in the Rise of Scott Walker. She was
28:25
Speaker 1: definitely replaced by a hobbit um. She was in it
28:29
Speaker 1: for less than two minutes, absent from merchandizing posters trailers,
28:33
Speaker 1: prompting the hashtag wears Rose to trend and later hashtag
28:37
Speaker 1: Rose Tico deserved better and hashtag justice for Rose. Credics
28:41
Speaker 1: were out spoken about the admission to labeling as one
28:43
Speaker 1: of the major she's of the film, saying it was
28:45
Speaker 1: hard to feel like the trolls hadn't one. Absolutely they won,
28:48
Speaker 1: like they absolutely cut her out. Whatever the reason may
28:52
Speaker 1: have been, they could have done better, for sure, Yeah, definitely.
28:56
Speaker 1: And then there's Mas. She's played by Lapidio Yango. A
29:00
Speaker 1: wise and scrappy pirate, queen and collector and also a
29:03
Speaker 1: force sensitive A little force sensitive. She attempts to guide
29:06
Speaker 1: Ray to accept the force and provides aid to the resistance.
29:10
Speaker 1: Niango's performance was captured through motion capture. Han Solo describes
29:16
Speaker 1: her as a quote acquired taste. She is centuries old
29:19
Speaker 1: and a lover of the arts. Then there's Holdo, played
29:22
Speaker 1: by a Laura Dern Vice Admiral Emlin Holdo. She appears
29:25
Speaker 1: in the Last Jedi and his second in the chain
29:27
Speaker 1: of command behind Leia, taking control when Leiah is sidelined
29:31
Speaker 1: and oh my gosh fanboys and not like her either.
29:33
Speaker 1: One of the things they hated about that movie was
29:35
Speaker 1: how flashy pilot Po was called out for essentially man's planting,
29:39
Speaker 1: And this is a character you're supposed to like. But
29:41
Speaker 1: that's the point. Not everyone who does sexist things is
29:43
Speaker 1: a horrible person. Not everyone who man's plants totally sex
29:46
Speaker 1: Sometimes good guys do it too, and they need to
29:48
Speaker 1: realize what they're doing, and Po grows and learns as
29:51
Speaker 1: a character from this whole thing. There were also a
29:54
Speaker 1: lot of criticisms around her feminine appearance, including from Poe,
29:57
Speaker 1: her hair, her clothes, her jewelry. Basically that any woman
30:00
Speaker 1: could be a leader dressed like that and could be
30:03
Speaker 1: respected dress like that, that was impossible. She sacrificed herself
30:08
Speaker 1: to save the Resistance with the wholda maneuver which some
30:11
Speaker 1: fans say broke the Star Wars universe. I went down
30:13
Speaker 1: that rabbit hole, and I was like, no one is
30:15
Speaker 1: going to be interested in hearing my thoughts on this,
30:17
Speaker 1: but I'll tell you that it is a controversy. She's
30:20
Speaker 1: this eccentric, clever, dedicated, calm competent. She appears in several comics.
30:25
Speaker 1: If you want more backstory on her. So one of
30:27
Speaker 1: the main criticisms of her character is that she's painted
30:30
Speaker 1: as the main antagonist in this film, only for it
30:33
Speaker 1: to be a reversal as she becomes the hero at
30:36
Speaker 1: the end. But because of how they painted it, it
30:38
Speaker 1: didn't work, especially if you're rooting for a Poe. And however,
30:42
Speaker 1: Poe himself used a phrase need to know, which was
30:45
Speaker 1: essentially what he was really pissed about with Holdo that
30:48
Speaker 1: and she wouldn't praise him. In fact, she criticized them. Yeah,
30:52
Speaker 1: so he was really mad because he give us like
30:53
Speaker 1: demanding answers and she was like, you know, it's need
30:55
Speaker 1: to know. Then later he's like, that's the exact same thing, right.
31:00
Speaker 1: And a part of this is I think you're still
31:01
Speaker 1: meant to side with Poe, or at least connect with them.
31:03
Speaker 1: And it's a flip of the traditional storyline of ignoring
31:06
Speaker 1: orders from your superior with the added layer of a
31:09
Speaker 1: female leader and a male subordinate. Poe ignored orders from
31:12
Speaker 1: Leah as well, and a bunch of people died because
31:14
Speaker 1: of it. Holda and Leah's friendship is one of my
31:16
Speaker 1: favorite parts of that movie, though they are a longtime friends,
31:19
Speaker 1: Leah said about her after she died, Protecting the light
31:22
Speaker 1: was more important to her than looking like a hero.
31:24
Speaker 1: And speaking of Leiah, I know we've talked about her
31:26
Speaker 1: a million times before, but I think the key point
31:29
Speaker 1: about her character are one of them is that she stayed.
31:33
Speaker 1: Han left, Luke left, but Leah kept up the fight
31:35
Speaker 1: and mentored the next generation. Leiah takes over raised training
31:39
Speaker 1: after Luke's death, still hopeful and determined to strong and
31:42
Speaker 1: wise despite so much tragedy. Again, so much tragedy, so much. Yes,
31:49
Speaker 1: we do have a little bit more for your listeners,
31:51
Speaker 1: but first we have one more cup break forward from
31:53
Speaker 1: her sponsor. Every back, Thank you sponsor. So we did
32:09
Speaker 1: want to touch on Kathleen Kennedy, who is a huge
32:12
Speaker 1: controversial flashpoint in the world of Star Wars. Kennedy is
32:16
Speaker 1: a big time producer. Her first movie was Et the
32:18
Speaker 1: Actual Terrestrial. The sixty plus films she's worked on have
32:21
Speaker 1: wrecked upwards of eleven billion dollars, earned more than eight
32:24
Speaker 1: OSCAR nominations, and with seven point five billion dollars in
32:27
Speaker 1: box office re seats, she is in third place as
32:31
Speaker 1: when it comes to producing, behind allmen Kevin Figy, and
32:34
Speaker 1: Steven Spielberg. When she first got started out, she caught
32:36
Speaker 1: the attention of Steven Spielberg and worked on several of
32:39
Speaker 1: his projects. Just look for producer credits in popular movies.
32:43
Speaker 1: I guarantee you've seen her name before you've seen something
32:45
Speaker 1: she has done. Right. So, in the early ninety nineties,
32:48
Speaker 1: she and her husband, Frank of Marshall founded the Kennedy
32:51
Speaker 1: Marshall Company, and she's received lots and lots of awards.
32:55
Speaker 1: In two thousand twelve, but she left the Kennedy Marshall
32:58
Speaker 1: Company to become a co chair of Lucasfilm Limited, next
33:02
Speaker 1: to George Lucas, and she moved up to president when
33:05
Speaker 1: Disney bought Lucasfilm out in chosen by Lucas himself, and
33:11
Speaker 1: her contract is currently set to end in October one.
33:14
Speaker 1: Which have you seen the rumor that George Lucas is
33:16
Speaker 1: saying he's coming back? Yes? Always, always, I don't know
33:21
Speaker 1: what's true and what's false anymore. Okay, So every time
33:24
Speaker 1: something goes wrong in quotes in Star Wars or is
33:28
Speaker 1: not to the liking angry fans, she is almost always
33:31
Speaker 1: bringed right or wrong. You've probably seen her name trending
33:34
Speaker 1: out on Twitter in response to some perceived Star Wars issue,
33:37
Speaker 1: especially with the sequel trilogy. UM. I mean, I guess
33:40
Speaker 1: a part of that makes sense because she is the president,
33:41
Speaker 1: but I really think she draws a lot more igher
33:45
Speaker 1: and a lot more like personal attacks than perhaps a
33:48
Speaker 1: male figure would. UM. So many headlines about how she's
33:52
Speaker 1: going to get forced out of Star Wars. You may
33:54
Speaker 1: have seen this recently when Dave Filoni was promoted at
33:57
Speaker 1: Lucasfilm and he does a bunch of the like Mandalorian
33:59
Speaker 1: and stuff like that. I definitely want to return to
34:02
Speaker 1: this for a future episode. I just wanted to mention
34:04
Speaker 1: it because I swear at least once a week I
34:06
Speaker 1: see that she's trending and people about at her about
34:09
Speaker 1: something related Star Wars, and they're like, she's gonna get
34:11
Speaker 1: replaced by this person. We will see, yes, and one
34:21
Speaker 1: day we're definitely going to return two Star Wars characters
34:23
Speaker 1: like Rogue One's Ginner, so perhaps with Holly fry Um,
34:27
Speaker 1: Kira from Solo, all the women in the shows. But
34:31
Speaker 1: for now, that is what we have to say about
34:35
Speaker 1: the Star Wars sequels. Please send any of your thoughts
34:40
Speaker 1: are suggestions about what movies we should do next are
34:43
Speaker 1: a way we keep a list. I swear it's not
34:45
Speaker 1: all Star Wars all the time. You can emails at
34:49
Speaker 1: Stuff Media, mom Stuff at I Hurt me dot com.
34:51
Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast
34:53
Speaker 1: or on Instagram. And Stuff I've Never Told You Thanks,
34:55
Speaker 1: It's always to our super producer Christie you know, thank you,
34:58
Speaker 1: and thanks to you for listening Stuff I Never Told
35:00
Speaker 1: You production to I Heart Radio. For more podcast from
35:02
Speaker 1: my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast,
35:05
Speaker 1: or Revery listen to favorite shows h