Latest / Wake Up with Miya / Episode 202. JFK, the CIA, and Deep Cover with Robert "Tosh" Plumlee & Ralph Pezzullo

Transcript

Episode 202. JFK, the CIA, and Deep Cover with Robert "Tosh" Plumlee & Ralph Pezzullo · Wake Up with Miya

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: He hung out in certain areas and guys would come
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: up to him and give them what they called the bump,
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: And a bump was like, follow me. Let's go sit
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: in the library, or let's go sit in the park,
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: and I'm going to give you some information. And you're
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: going to go to a particular local airport and find
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: a particular airplane with this tail number, and in that airplane,
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: it's going to be a flight plane, and you're going
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: to fly to Ohio or whatever it is, and you're
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: going to pick up arms there that was stolen from
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: a National Guard armory and you're going to fly them
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: to this spot in Cuba, or you're going to fly
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: them wherever you So a pilot, a cutout pilot like Tosh.
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: He doesn't know what the mission is. He doesn't know
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: who ordered the mission. He doesn't know what the mission
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: is part of. He's just told, you know, take go
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: on this flight. He doesn't even know the identity of
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: the person who told him about the mission.
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: More than sixty years after the assassination of President John F. Kennedy,
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: it remains one of the most debated and investigated events
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: in American history. Countless books have been written thousands of
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: government documents have been released, and yet many people still
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: believe there are unanswered questions surrounding what happened on November
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: twenty second, nineteen sixty three. In today's interview, I'm joined
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: by Robert Tosh, Plumley and best selling author Rob Pazzullo
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: to discuss their new book, Deep Covered Shallow Graves. Tosh
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: shares his first hand account of working as a contract
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: pilot in covert operation and why he says he was
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: sent to Dallas as part of an abort mission on
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: the day President Kennedy was assassinated. It certainly was a
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: fascinating conversation that continues as one of America's longest runner debates.
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: And of course, during the last ten minutes of this interview,
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: we had an unexpected power outage here in Hawaii. We
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: even joked that this was one more conspiracy on top
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: of everything else, trying to get him to be quiet
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: and not talk about this topic. So I had to
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: switch over to my phone's hotspot where we could finish
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: this conversation. So you'll notice a change in the audio
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: and video quality, and that would be the reason why.
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: Thank you for your understanding of that. Now before we
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: get started. If you enjoy these conversations, please follow this show, subscribe,
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: and hit the notification bell so you guys never miss
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: any future episodes. And if you're listening on Apple Podcasts,
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: I really would appreciate it if you could please leave
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: a positive review. It really does help support this show
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: and helps others to discover these amazing conversations and guests
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: that I have here on this show. And don't forget, guys,
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: don't forget that we also have a extended and deeper
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: conversation available on the plus side, either on Patreon or YouTube. Okay, guys,
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: let's get into today's conversation. Enjoy the show. Aloha Robert
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: and aloha Toash. Thank you both so much for taking
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: the time to join me today. I'm really looking forward
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: to our conversation and diving deep into deep cover Shallow
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: Groves your book. I'm really excited to talk about that.
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: So welcome to the show.
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here.
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: Thank you, n We break Yes well, Tosh. For listeners
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: who may not be familiar with you, could you tell
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: us a little bit about yourself and what led you
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: into this world of covert operations.
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: Okay, well Ralph knows more about me than I do.
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: So anyway, my co writerer here, well, I run away
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: from home. I was just dunal delink. I wouldn't go
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: to school, run away from home. When I was fourteen,
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: forts the birth certificate, joined the Texas forty ninth Army
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: Division in Dallas, Texas.
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: Ended up.
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: Learned how to drive a Sherman tank at fifteen, then
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: I went to Fort Bliss. We went into the regular Army,
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: used my National Guard identification to get into the regular
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: Army and was stationed at Fort Bliss, Texas. Went to
• 4:33
  Speaker 3: basic training there and I was fifteen sixteen. That was
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: in nineteen fifty three, fifty four, nineteen fifty two, I
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: was fourteen and then that's when I joined the National Guard.
• 4:46
  Speaker 3: And then at fifteen sixteen I went and still underage
• 4:50
  Speaker 3: and went into the regular Army and was stationed at
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: Fort Bliss. So at that point we had an encident
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: at Fort Bliss where a drill instructor was playing a
• 5:04
  Speaker 3: game and he took a hand grenade. We met another
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: guy were throwing hand granades at a little white post
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: about forty yards away, and the drill instructor he takes
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: the grenade, pulls a pin and throws it into the
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: bunker where Leroy and I were throwing these hand grenades.
• 5:21
  Speaker 3: I saw him laughing. For some reason, I grabbed a
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: grenade instead of throwing it down range, I threw it
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: back at the drill instructor's feet. It exploded and white
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: smoke went all over him, and the rest of the
• 5:35
  Speaker 3: drill instructor started laughing. He took me out of the
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: bunker and took me to the commanding officer and said
• 5:41
  Speaker 3: I tried to kill him. And the commanding officer wanted
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: to know why I didn't throw the grenade down range,
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: and I told the commanding officer, I said, well, I
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: wasn't gonna give him a chance to throw another grenade
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: and kill Leroy. And I Leroy was a black guy,
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: and he was my friend, and I was known by
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: the squad as the inn lover. Ojayers was nineteen fifty four,
• 6:02
  Speaker 3: So at the time I was standing in front of
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: the commanding officer, there was four guys standing in the background,
• 6:11
  Speaker 3: two CID guys Criminal Investigation Attachment and two other guys
• 6:16
  Speaker 3: that I didn't know, and they were CIA, and my
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: first literal contact that I had with the CIA was
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: at that moment this one guy come up and he said,
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: we like you because you got moxie. And I hit
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: him because I thought he was saying that I had
• 6:34
  Speaker 3: been going over to warriads and caught some kind of
• 6:37
  Speaker 3: disease playing with the girls over there, and I had moxie.
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: So he was a CIA guy, and that's what basically
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: lid into my contact with CIA, where I was eventually
• 6:50
  Speaker 3: assigned to a special unit that was patterned after the
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: Dirty Dozen of World War Two? Am I telling this
• 6:58
  Speaker 3: story right, Ralph?
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: You got it right?
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: And so during the Operation paper Clip, they brought this
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: program back from Germany where the Germans had trained young
• 7:09
  Speaker 3: kids twelve, thirteen, fourteen years old in the last days
• 7:12
  Speaker 3: of the war to fight. So we used that same
• 7:16
  Speaker 3: program at a test unit in Fort West, Texas in
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: nineteen fifty four. It was called an OEMC Operation Military
• 7:24
  Speaker 3: Covert recont Training Command, and I was in Dollgate and
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: that was the beginning of my association with Special Ops.
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: Might remind you this was before actually Green Beret, before
• 7:39
  Speaker 3: Special Ops was really formed. It was known as the
• 7:42
  Speaker 3: Rangers at that point in time. And so anyway, I'll
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: back off now let my co author tell the rest
• 7:49
  Speaker 3: of the story.
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: Well, Ralph, you've written extensively on history and crime and intelligence.
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: Tell us a little bit about yourself and what led
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: you to work with Tosh on deep Cover and Shallow Grief.
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: Well. Yeah, I've written a lot of books. I'm very
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: interested in clandestine operations, so I've written with a lot
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: of former CIA operations officers. Tosh is an exception because
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: Tosh was a CIA cutout. So in Tash's case, there's
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: no official record that he ever worked for the CIA,
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: so he did not get a paycheck from the CIA.
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: He was deep cover, and by deep cover, he worked
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: for cutout companies and was paid by cutout companies like
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: Riddle Airlines, Eastern Airlines of other airline companies, so he
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: always had a check, but they kept them at airport
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: at certain locations so that he was on call if
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: they needed him for a covert operation. So I met
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: Toash through an actor friend of a mutual friend of
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: ours named Lou Lou Hurtham, and Lou is a big
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: jfk assassination, a fictionado, and he said, you've got to
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: meet Tosh. Tosh flew in a board team to Dallas
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: on November twenty second, twenty second, nineteen sixty three. So
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: Tash and I met. He appeared on my podcast Heroes
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: Behind Headlines several times, and he talked about he had
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: been trying to write a book for for a long
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: time and would I be interested in working with him?
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: And we agreed And the book is a deep cover
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: Shallow Grave. And his experience is very unique in several
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: ways because he was a lifetime sort of undercover operative,
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: deep undercover, and these are people that are that are
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: rarely ever talk to the public about what they did.
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: Might add on this too. I've testified three times this
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Senate Intelligence Committee, Senator Gary Hart.
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: And so it's on official records and it's classified top secret,
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: committee sensitive, is that right, Ralph?
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: So there is a paper trail there, there are, but
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: it is it is not easy to find because the
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: whole idea of these operations that they're is that they're
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: deniable and that so it is impossible to track a
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: person like Tosh to an official operation. Right.
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: The first operation I was involved with was the Cuban Project,
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: and that was running guns to fade l Caestro before
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: he took power in Cuba. That was a nineteen fifty six,
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: nineteen fifty seven, fifty eight and fifty nine. In fact,
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: there's a picture of me riding into Santa Clara, Cuba
• 11:04
  Speaker 3: on January the first, nineteen fifty nine, and Castro took
• 11:07
  Speaker 3: over power of Cuban. Battista was kicked out a Cuba,
• 11:13
  Speaker 3: so to speak, and that's in the book Deep Cover
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: Salar Graves. And that caused a little bit of a
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: stink with the federal government because I had corporal stripes.
• 11:25
  Speaker 3: I wore the top part of my fatigues while I
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: was on that tank, and they want to know why
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: CIA Operative was riding on a sermon tank into Cuba
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: on that day. And this is also background in the
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: book Deep Cover Salar Grades with documentation.
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: Am I right, Ralph? Yes you are? And writing on
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: top of that tank was also che Gavada. So there
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: are pictures of tash in Fidel Castro and Raoul Castro's
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: camps back in nineteen fifty seven.
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: Serio Sergio, my good friend who was in Dallas with me,
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: was the tank driver and the tank that I was on,
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: by coincidence, was one of the tanks that I learned
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: how to drive with the Texas forty ninth Armored Division
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: in Dallas, Texas in nineteen fifty two. How that tank
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: got there is another question, because in those days you
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: couldn't fly that kind of a tank in an airplane.
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: That had to come in on a boat, on the ship.
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: So there's another story here, right Ralph, absolutely, yes, yes, Well.
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: Tasha, at what point did you decide that now was
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: funny the right time to tell your story?
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: Well, all my friends were I'm the last of the
• 12:45
  Speaker 3: Mohegans so to speak. I'm eighty eight years old, but
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: my name I was I didn't actually come forward purposely.
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: In nineteen seventy six, the Church Committee Senator Schwiker and
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: Congressman Tom Downing got ahold of some flight plans from
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: the Cuban Project and JM Wave operations and a good
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: friend of mine, Tonio Vinciana, with Alpha sixty six. At
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: that point in time, the Church Committee was trying to
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: be formed or being formed, and my name popped up
• 13:18
  Speaker 3: in a flight plan and that led that opened the door.
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: In seventy six, so with Senator Schweiker and Congressman Tom
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: Downing got me in touch. Prior to the farmation. That
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: was in nineteen seventy five seventy six of the Church Committee.
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: At that point in time, I released a couple of
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: classified names. One of them was Gilbert Mark and mister
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: Big and Jay Howard. Later sixty two years later those
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: names were confirmed with George jo Nidas and Joe Nightis
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: was working with the JM Wave operation. I was working
• 13:53
  Speaker 3: with the JM operation and Antonio Vinciana was operating OUTPHA
• 13:59
  Speaker 3: sixty six and I was I had of friends on
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: the ridership wrecks. We was done hitting run Drun's in
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: the Cuba. That was the beginning of my career with
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: the CIA. It's in the book and it's documented rough.
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: When Tash first shared his story with you, what was
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: your initial reaction, what convinced you that his story was
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: worth investigating and documenting?
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: It was just an absolutely, I mean, he's almost like
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: a Zeleg the Woody Allen character, a person who shows
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: up and witnesses key moments in history, you know, and
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: and so that absolutely fascinated me as well as his
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: life because it's all of a piece, right. So he
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: was he came from his parents divorced when he was young.
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: He came from a family with a strong patriotic background,
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: so he was attracted to helping the United States. And
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: it was a he was born right after World War
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: Two when patriotism was extremely high, and so young men
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: like Tosh were recruited for these sort of sensitive undercover operations.
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: And they were the kind of people who would ask
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: no questions, They would just do what they were told
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: because they believed in the United States. And and and
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: that's what he did his his entire career until he
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: saw things that were that were so disturbing to him
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: that he reported them to particular Senate committees and that
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: and that goes back to uh And I'm talking in
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: particular about the assassination of President Kennedy that he witnessed
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: and he taught and he told people about. And the
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: other major event that he was involved in was Iran Contra,
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: when the United States was exchanging drugs for arms for
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: the Nicaraguan contrast. And Tosh had been recruited as a
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: pilot in that operation. And when he saw what was
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: going on that we were we were flying in and
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: he was one of the pilots involved tons of cocaine
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: into US cities on American into American Army bases and
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: air force bases. He called this out and very bravely
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: went to Senate investigators and spilled the.
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: Story that was in nineteen eighty two the Senator Gary
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: Hart on that operation because we were in violashed into
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: the Bowling Amendment, and some of my Pollock friends were
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: getting arrested by DEA for flying cocaine on a sanctioned
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: operation into the United States in order to fund the
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: IRN contram and that's how they raised the money to
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: buy the weapons, and so it became an operation is
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: Gun South, Drugs North, and the drugs that we brought
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: back in see one thirties were loaded into Homestead Air
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: Force Base and other places like El Toro Marine Air
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: Station and a different marine different military bases throughout the country.
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: And I testified the Senator Carrious Committee about that in
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: closed door session, and testimony is still today classified Top
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: secret Committee sensitive, and we are tempting to try to
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: get those documents released, and we're running up against the
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: stone wall.
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: Well, I want to hear about your Kennedy Aboard team story.
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: So can you walk us through what you remember about
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: November twenty second, nineteen sixty three from the time you
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: arrived in Dallas.
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: Well, it's in the book Deep Cover Shallow Graves. It
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: doesn't matter what all went on. Like I told Ralph,
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: and we could do ten thousand pages on a book
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: about ops. JFK was just one of many, many ops.
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: But ten thousand.
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: Pages and you do three pages on JFK and the
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: only interest would be JFK. So how I got involved
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: with JFK was started out. There was a lot of
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: rumors going around in those years, in sixty two sixty
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: three about Kennedy, and it wasn't all about the Bay
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: of Pigs. It was even before then. But there was
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: a marine, i mean an army private by the name
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: of Eugene B. Denkin. He was a cryptologist over in Europe,
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: and he uncovered some information that the CIA was recruiting
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: assassins in a foreign country to do a job in Texas.
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: That was the French Foreign Legion, so they were recruiting.
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: So anyway, this information was intercepted or sent back to
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: the Pentagon. The Pentagon immediately contacted the CIA. The CIA
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: sent a team to support a team that was since
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: dispatched out of the Pentagon dispatched the Dallas to stop
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: the Kennedy assassination. Now they used the term of board.
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: I never liked that term of board because that means
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: that we went in to stop something we started. So
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: the reason that we were formed, I was just a pilot.
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: So the Pentagon formed a team and I was a
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: pilot to flew that team in. That was my operational status.
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: That information came from Senate from Eugene B. Dinkin on
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: recruiting an assassination attempt against the sitting president of the
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: United States? Am I telling this right, Ralph? That's right?
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah? And some of that. He flew in a
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: group that included Mafia members. Johnny Roselli was one of
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: the people on the team anti Castro Cubans, and also
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: members of the CIA, including E. Howard Hunt and they
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: were all The flights started out in West Palm Beach,
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: they stopped in New Orleans, then they stopped in Houston,
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: Texas to pick up different members of the team, and
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: they landed in Dallas the morning before the assassination. The
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: morning of the assassination, we.
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: Had some bad weather and was running way behind and
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: everything was just going crazy. So that led to the collapse.
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: But anyway, I didn't make it rup there.
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: But yeah, no. And one of the members of the
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: team was Sergio, who was somebody Cuban who Tash had
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: met initially in Fidel Castro's camp in the mountains of Cuba. Now,
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: like a lot of followers of Castro, he had turned
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: against Castro because when Castro came into power, many of
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: his followers thought he was going to bring in a
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: democratic government, and when he started becoming a dictator and
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: eliminating members of his group that were not aligned with him,
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: they turned against him. So Sergio, at that point in
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: nineteen sixty three, was working for the CIA, and he
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: knew Tash from you know, they had been friends since
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: nineteen fifty seven when they met in the mountains of Cuba.
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: So Sergio told Taj, he goes, I'm going to meet
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: the president, going to see the president and Daily Plaza.
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: Would you like to come along? And Tosh said sure, yeah,
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: why not, I'm not going to just I don't want
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: to just wait at the airport. And that's what that's
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: what brought him to Daily Plaza. During the drive to
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: Daily Plaza, Sergio told him what the operation was, that
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: he was part of an aboard team and they were
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: going to have different teams placed around the plaza to
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: try to interrupt the shooting. Of the different assassination teams
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: that were that were deployed in the plaza. They went
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: to the South Knoll opposite the Grassy Knoll, and they
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: were stationed there. Do you want to continue toash?
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: No, go ahead, You're doing a good bookay.
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: And so they climbed over the railroad tracks. There was
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: a parking lot and there was some cars parked in
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: that lot. They looked at the cars to see if
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: they found anything suspicious, which they didn't, and then they
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: climbed over and there were there was an embankment, a
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: group of trees, and then there was an embankment that
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: led directly into daily plaza. Seeing nothing suspicious, they went
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: down that. They went down the embankment and they looked
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: around the plaza and Tosh says, when he looked around
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: the plaza, it was like a spook convention. There were
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: all kinds of Cuban and you know, anti Cuban, anti
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: Castro Cubans. There were CIA officers and standing in the
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: doorway he saw Lee Harvey. Oswald so Lee Harvey. They
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: were all waiting for the limousine to enter Daily Plaza.
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: And as the limousine entered it, it drove in front
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: of the Book Depository building, and then it took a
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: sharp left onto Elm Street and it started coming down
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: Elm Street. And by making this this this very awkward
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: sharp turn, it sort of exposed it and and the
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: limousine had to had to slow down. As it came
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: down Elm Street, shots rang out. And that's when Tash
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: and Sergio were standing on the south level and they
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: heard bullets and felt bullets zip over their heads. So
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: they immediately looked behind them because they obviously the shots
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: came from behind them, and they saw on the lip
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: of the parking lot there was a there was a
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: car park there that they hadn't seen before, and standing
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: behind the beside the car were two gentlemen, and one
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: of them appeared to be holding a rifle. Yes, in
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: the boat and that moment and and and there's there's
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: there's a photograph to corroborate this. So at the moment
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: that President Kennedy was shot, a photographer from up I
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: named Frank Concilietti was taking a picture of a couple.
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: That's a famous photo of a couple on the grassy knoll,
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: trying to protect lying on the knoll, lying on the grass,
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: protecting their children, because they were worried about about the shots,
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: because it wasn't just one shot. There were a number
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: of shots that rang out. In the background of that photograph,
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: you can see the car that's part on the lip
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: of the parking lot in the south on the south knoll,
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: and you can see a man standing beside it. One
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: of them is holding a rifle and the other one
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: is just standing beside it, sort of like the driver.
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: So if if anyone has the book Deep Cover Celebrats,
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: they can turn the page one fifty nine and that
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: photograph is there. And by the way, that photograph was
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: centers of FBI Crime Lab where they certify that that
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: was a person holding an object. They didn't say what
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: the object was. But if anybody's got the book, they
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: can go to page one forty nine. I'm looking at
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: it right now, uh, and in the book whatever, and
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: they can see that that photograph that was kept secret
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: from the Warrant Commission. All this stuff was kept secret.
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: My testimony was kept secret. There's another story there, won't
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: get into it. But so anyway, these pictures of Cancalo
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: photograph his on page one nine and UH and the negatives,
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: So that was the confirmation was confirmed off negatives, not
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: off the photo photograph. So anyway, yeah, well deep cover.
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: So it's very very significant. Right at that moment, Sergio
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: said to Tash, we better get that we screwed up.
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: We better get the hell out of here, because they
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: realized that, you know, they they were exposed right as
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: as as undercover operatives standing in the light of fire,
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: they would they would probably get picked up as suspects.
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: So they took off. They got back in their car
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: and they drove back to the airport. They got back
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: on a plane and they flew back to UH. They
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: stopped in Houston again and they flew flew back to
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: Miami that day. That afternoon, there was supposed to be
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: a meeting to kind of go over the what happened
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: of debriefing. Before Tosh could appear at the debriefing, Before
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: he could even get there, he was arrested and he
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: was taken back to West Palm Beach waiting. There was
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: a detective from from Denver and he said, I have
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: a I have a warrant for your arrest on a
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: charge of passing a bad check, and Tosh was like,
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: you know, what the hell are you talking about. Anyway,
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: he was flown back to Denver and he was put
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: in a Denver County jail as he awaited a sentence,
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: awaited facing a judge in the In the he was
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: put in in a cell with a convicted murderer, and
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: that convicted murderer said, after they were talking for a
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: day or two, that convicted murderer turned to Tosh and said,
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: you know, I was put in this cell to kill you.
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: That was that was my job. We became good friends.
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: Said I like you because you've got these interesting stories
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: and you're a charming guy, and so I'm not going
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: to kill you.
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: Anyway, he was sent back, his appeal was denied. He
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: was sent back to Canyon City, where he later committed
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: suicide in jail in nineteen seventy one. It was a
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: good question. There's another story behind. Did he really commit
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: suicide or was he taken out because he didn't complete
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: his mission? So that's another part of this story. This
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: story has tentacles, just like an octopus that's got to
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: eight arms out there, So we could go off until
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: a thousand of them, right, Ralph, that's right.
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: So Tash is eventually brought before a judge named Finsterwald,
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: and fincer Wald con says that sentences Tash to an
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: unspecified sentence in a juvenile detention center and told to
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: grow up down to charge against them. So he's put
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: in a juvenile hall with like sixteen and eighteen year olds.
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: He's now twenty six year old, with no with no
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: open ended sentence and no check, no check presented, any,
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: no checks presented, so the charge was.
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: Not ignored.
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: So the whole thing was just absolutely drummed up just
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: to get him out of circulation. Well while he was
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: in jail, while he was in this juvenile detention center,
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: he starts getting visited by the FBI. This is now
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: early nineteen sixty four, and he draws a map for
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: the FBI of where he and Sergio were standing when
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: the shots went off in Daily Plaza and where the
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: where the shots came from, and where they they he
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: estimated the other shooting teams were located, and this was all.
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: This is all was all, was all heavily classified and
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: has never seen the light of day, even though Tash
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: has been referred as referred to it, since it has
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: not changed and he has drawn other maps to replicate
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: the one he drew in nineteen sixty four.
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: Now the testimony. Other words, they told me shut my mouth,
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: all kinds of threats in earlier, earlier days, I was
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: going to write a book titled The Black Knights of Cuba.
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: We don't have time to get into all this, but
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: there's a lot more behind this story, breadcrumbs as I
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: call it, that leads up to some very interesting stuff
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: which is in the book. The cover Cellar Graves. So
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: if we're going to promote the book, was the object
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: of this was to point the way where to go. Now,
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: at the time all this was going on, the Warren
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: Commission was convening, and I was worn by the FBI
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: to keep my mouth shut. I was doing classified information.
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: And if I continued to talk, and I was in
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: jail at that point and where and uh law not Loasahatchie,
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: but in Bena visa that if I continued to talk
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: about this, they were going to file a fact charge
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: on a false accusation against the federal government. I told
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: them to go ahead and file their fact charges because
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: they would have to reduce or present all the documentation
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: that they had on me, all the files in order
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: for my defense. That's called full disclosure. As a result
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: of that, this is all documented, by the way, so
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: that's in the book. Uh and the documents are photographed
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: in the book. And uh so that was a standoff
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: between me, the FBI, and the Warrant Commission and also
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: Senator John Kerry, Senator Uh uh, very hard. And I'm
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: getting a little off track here, Ralph.
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: So yeah, so fast forward. So eventually Tash is let
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: out of juvenile detention center. He moves to the Denver
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: area and he decides, I've had enough of clandestine operations.
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: I'm going to start a construction business, which he does.
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: First it's a plumbing business, and then it's successful and
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: he opens a larger construction business. He's building homes. He's remarried,
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: he's trying to put all of this stuff behind him.
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: He's not really talking about Kennedy or Daily Plaza or
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: any of that. And so in the early seventies, the
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: CIA comes knocking again and they want him to fly,
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: they want him to start. They pretend that they have
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: an undercover operation that's starting to trying to penetrate the
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: drug flights that are coming into the United States from
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: Columbia which were just starting. Go ahead, let me interrupt
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: right here. What started that was I had a successful business.
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: I had forty one employees, I had nineteen back holes,
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: and I was doing construction work, building homes in Denver, Colorado.
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: Even built a home for John Elway with Denver Broncos.
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: I had a successful business going out of the Clear Blue.
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: My crew come in one day and said, Hey, we
• 33:26
  Speaker 3: can't get into the office. I said, why because it's sealed.
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: The FBI had or the IRS had put a seal
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: and locked a seal on my company door. And they
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: claimed that I owed them fifty five thousand dollars because
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: I didn't declare my income. What they had done. They
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: had went back over five years of my previous income
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: when I worked for the CIA, and they estimated what
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: I owed them, and they wanted to know why I
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: didn't file. I had filed I would expose the operation.
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: As a result of that, my business went bankrupt, UH
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: and I needed money, and I made contact with Senator
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: Barry Goldwater staff in Phoenix, Arizona with Tri State Drug
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: Test Force, and they said they needed pilots, and I said,
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: you got one, and I went to Phoenix, Arizona started
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: flying drugs on a sanctioned operation for the CIA. I
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: didn't mean to interrupt you there route.
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: No no, no, no, Well what was the what?
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: What?
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: What? Was initially an undercover operation to find out who
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: these pilots were and who what the drug routes were
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: that they were flying into the Southwest United States? Turned
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: out to be a CIA operation.
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: Well, we were, we were designed to underco infiltrate uh,
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: cartel routes. So I worked as an undercover pilot for
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: the cartels. And that's another long story here, but anyway,
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: so I flew C one thirties, UH in C forty
• 35:11
  Speaker 3: six and DC three's and well, our job was to
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: penetrate the cartel logistical routes as an undercover pilot, UH
• 35:22
  Speaker 3: and logged at for the DEA. And UH that's what
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: I did, and UH there's documentations substantiate that. And so
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: that's how I recovered from what happened in Denver when
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: IRIS shut me down. So I went to work for
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: the government for the Tri State Drug Task Force in Phoenix, Arizona.
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: Governor Bruce Babbitt was head of that trust state and
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: I worked as an undercover operative. My contact there was
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: Phoenix Organized Crime Detail and I worked out some people
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: with Berry good Water staff. Anyway, I didn't mean the
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: ramway here, but that was to me, that's very important.
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: That's how I re engaged. I looked at it from
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: the stampoint. I needed the money I was. I had
• 36:11
  Speaker 3: five dollars and eighty six cents in my pocket and
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: I was in debt two hundred and sixty seven thousand
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: dollars with payroll, and I couldn't pay my crew and
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: the back holes that I had that I was using
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: to do work for Denver, Colorado and Lakewood, Colorado, they
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: were all confiscated by the IRS and locked out. That's
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: a true story, and that can be verified. And it's
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: still very sensitive to me as I probably can tell
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: the way I'm telling the story. So, but that was
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: the beginning. I thought that was very important to bring
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: up RAF.
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: I didn't mean to interrupted, yeah, yeah, sure, no, no, no, Well,
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: that is really the motivation for how they got in
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: back to fly I had and they also and they
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: initially told them he was flying undercover to discover these
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: drug rout that also Bores was actually a operation where
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: they were working with the cartel and they were flying
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: drugs into the country and using that to generate money
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: for other undercover operations, which turned into which which turned
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: into be turned into supporting the contras who were fighting
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: the Sandinistas in Nicaragua against the law of the country,
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: so that the sent the House had passed the bull
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: In Amendment that was passed in nineteen eighty three, I believe,
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: and so it was illegal to raise money to arm
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: the Nicaragua Contras. So they were doing it under cover,
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: using the using drugs that were being flown up from
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: from Colombia by pilots like taj and exchanging that those
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: those those that cocaine for weapons which then went to
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: the Contrasts to supply the contrast in Nicaragua.
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: And they got to.
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: Add this as a footnote on on the story here
• 38:01
  Speaker 3: at the time, in nineteen eighty two, I'm in touch
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: with Senator Gary Hart, and I am taking these maps
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: and I'm detailing those maps flight plans, fuel receipts, and
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: lodging deals. And in nineteen eighty two I'm giving that
• 38:17
  Speaker 3: to Bill Holding, his security advisor, and the Senator Gary
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: Hart is logging all this and he turned it over
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and they did not
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: do anything about it. They refused to investigate. This is
• 38:31
  Speaker 3: in a letter from Senator Gary Hart which is in
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: the book Deep Cover Cell of Grades Point being in
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: nineteen eighty two, we were running a documented event of
• 38:43
  Speaker 3: US running cocaine into this country under a sanctioned Reagan
• 38:47
  Speaker 3: White House operation which was documented. And also in nineteen ninety,
• 38:55
  Speaker 3: San Diego Reader Neil Matthews copied those maps documents and
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: did an article Iran drugs for Uncle Sam. And that's
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: in April nineteen ninety San Diego Reader article, also documented
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: by Senator Gary Hart, who sent the information to the
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: Senate Foreign Relations Committee and the Senate Intelligence Committee, and
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: they refused to look at it. They refused to investigate.
• 39:25
  Speaker 3: So from nineteen eighty two to nineteen eighty six, when
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: Haustin Push bailed out of the plane and the C
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: one thirty was shot down, that killed good two good
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: friends of mine, Buss Sawyer and Bill Cooper. That started
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: the Iran country and that was in nineteen eighty five.
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: They had had a record of that since nineteen eighty two.
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: The Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Reagan administration, and the Senate
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: Intelligence Committee had documentation maps, planes, photographs, flight logs, and
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: fuel receipts.
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: And in Tosh, so in time, I first went to them,
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: first went to the Senate Subcommittee, which was run by
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: Senator Hart in nineteen eighty two, I believe it was
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: Senator Hart. They told him, keep flying those flights and
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: document everything. Bring us the maps, bring us the roots,
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: bring us all the information. So Tosh did what he told,
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: what he was told, and he provided them with everything,
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: and some of that information is still available and it
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: was reprinted in the book. But then again, you know,
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: he gave them all the information and he continued to
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: fly these flights at you know, considerable danger to himself,
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: but they did nothing with the information. And when the.
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: Motivation for me doing that was to protect my butt
• 40:50
  Speaker 3: because there was friends of mine going to jail. Pul
• 40:53
  Speaker 3: of friends were being arrested and they were involved in
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: a sanctioned operation that was conducted at that time by
• 40:58
  Speaker 3: the regular administration, a White House. So I saw this happening.
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: That's the reason I went to Heart. And that's the
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: reason in eighty two when we were found out the
• 41:07
  Speaker 3: Bowling Amendment. We were in violation of the Bowling Amendment
• 41:10
  Speaker 3: because we were flying guns to the Nicaraguan Contra a
• 41:13
  Speaker 3: secret base sign of Leana Costa Rica, which was known
• 41:16
  Speaker 3: as Point West by Oliver North, who headed up the
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: Program Enterprise at that point in time. So when I
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: started talking about this, they threatened me with releasing top
• 41:27
  Speaker 3: secret classified information, which I was, but I was doing
• 41:30
  Speaker 3: it to protect myself because my friends and two of
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: them had just been killed in the plane crash of
• 41:37
  Speaker 3: the nineteen eighty five, which launched in the beginning of
• 41:40
  Speaker 3: the Iran Contra. Now the reason I'm rattling here is
• 41:43
  Speaker 3: this is all documented. People say, Oh, well, he's got
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: a hill of a store here, blah blah blah blah. Okay,
• 41:49
  Speaker 3: go buy the damn book and read it, you know,
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: and then follow the breadcrumbs that Ralph and I have
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: been so gracious to give you, and you can document
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: every damn thing we're talking about. Am I getting out
• 42:01
  Speaker 3: of base here at Ralph? No, not at all, as
• 42:04
  Speaker 3: you as you can tell. So you asked me in
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: the beginning, you know, why were you so intrigued by
• 42:11
  Speaker 3: Tasha's story? And I think you know now, I mean
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: He's led quite a life and he has, let you know,
• 42:18
  Speaker 3: he has operated behind the scenes and you know, so
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: he started out as this very idealistic, patriotic kid. Uh
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: he we left out a part he was. He was
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: trained at the School of Illusionary Warfare and Nag's Head,
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: North Carolina, in a program designed by Sidney Gottlieb, who
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: was the designer of m k Ultra, and the whole
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: idea was to create super super soldiers like the like
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: the Nazis had developed during World War Two, and to
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: use drugs hypnosis and and psychic and try to develop
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: up their psychic abilities to make them these people who
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: could withhold, you know, with.
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: Operate without sleep and and uh, you know, be able
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: to foretell how people were going to act, all kinds
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: of stuff. And it was at that center in nags Head,
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: North Carolina that he first met another young recruit named
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: Lee Harvey Oswald. Lee Harvey Oswald was in the language
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: division of the school because he had he was also
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: from a broken home in Dallas, and he had an
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: ability with languages. So he was put in the program
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: with six to eight other students and they were they
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: were all learning Russian so that they could use them
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: to defect the Soviet Union, and that's what happened with
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: Lee Harvey Oswald. So eventually he defected to the Soviet
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: Union because and that the Soviets, we know this from
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: Soviet defectors, that they were suspicious of Lee Harvey aswell,
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: because his Russian was so good. He spoke almost as
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: you know, they couldn't tell him from a native. Now,
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: the reason he defected he was carrying some information about
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: radar installations that he was going to give to the
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: Soviet the Russian intelligence, and hopefully they were going to
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: recruit him, but they were suspicious of him because his
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: Russian was so good. They sent him to a electronics
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: factory and Minxt which is a smaller city, and he
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: spent a year there and that's where he met his wife, Marina.
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: They were married, they had a daughter, and then he
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: petitioned to come back to the United States. Tash met
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: him when he returned to Dallas the spring of nineteen
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: sixty three, and they bumped into each other several times.
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: The Oswald was there was there as a as an
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: undercover operative looking into the drug the the arms dealing
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: that was going on with the UH The anti Castro
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: Cubans in Dallas.
• 45:13
  Speaker 3: Working with Hosty of the FBI in Dallas.
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: So he when they named Lee Harvey Oswald of the suspect, Toosh,
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: knew immediately that this was a cover up, and uh,
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: yeah he was.
• 45:33
  Speaker 3: None of this affected me now, didn't affect me now,
• 45:35
  Speaker 3: didn't affect me now.
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: So Lee Harvey Oswald he was a patsy then.
• 45:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely. And he was operational. He was operational from
• 45:46
  Speaker 3: back then and all the way through. You know. In fact,
• 45:48
  Speaker 3: Marina and I have talked about that. I met with
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: Marino a few years ago before Porter died, and uh
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: went over the fact that Lee was operational, and we
• 45:58
  Speaker 3: had a nice conversation. And she's a good lady and
• 46:01
  Speaker 3: she does not want to be involved in a Now
• 46:03
  Speaker 3: I don't blame her and not want to be involved
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: in any of this at all, you know, I mean
• 46:08
  Speaker 3: that she's been by our federal government. She and her
• 46:11
  Speaker 3: family has been treated like dirt. Oh so anyway, with
• 46:15
  Speaker 3: that's it, I'll leave it at dead.
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah. The last call that Lee Harvey Oswald made from
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: the jail in Dallas before he was killed the next
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: morning by Jack Ruby was to a phone number in
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: North Carolina, and that phone number connected to the the
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: nags Head Casino where he and Tosh had trained, and
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: they had they were given a number there to call
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: in case they ever got into trouble.
• 46:46
  Speaker 3: Uh, you know, I was a it was a contact number,
• 46:48
  Speaker 3: and in case we got in jail, it's a lot
• 46:50
  Speaker 3: like that that Hurt could get us out. I had
• 46:53
  Speaker 3: a different contact person, but Lee and others had John Hurt,
• 46:59
  Speaker 3: not a. And when Lee was hooked up, he tried
• 47:03
  Speaker 3: to make contact. Uh, this was known about long before
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: it became public. But c I a f B. I
• 47:10
  Speaker 3: held it back from the Warrant Commission and also held
• 47:13
  Speaker 3: the fingerprints back and a lot of stuff went on then.
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: So yeah, we.
• 47:17
  Speaker 3: Could go off into a thousand trails on that stuff.
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: So did we ever figure out why they wanted to
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: kill Kennedy?
• 47:26
  Speaker 3: Was it? Because?
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, I mean basically he ran a foul of
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: the the anti communists who controlling the the the foreign
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: policy of the United States. So after the after the
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: Cuban Missile Crisis, when we nearly came nearly faced a
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: nuclear war with the Soviet Union, the Kennedy brothers were
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: horrified because the a lot of people in the Pentagon
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: that joined chiefs of staff and people in the c
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: i A. Were trying to almost foment a nuclear war
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: and saying, well, we would only suffer about, you know,
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: ten million casualties in the United States and that was
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: acceptable to them.
• 48:12
  Speaker 3: Well, one thing about I don't want to bring up
• 48:14
  Speaker 3: here from my point of view, there's two directives called
• 48:20
  Speaker 3: in Sam's. The first one was in Sam two sixty three,
• 48:25
  Speaker 3: and that's where Kennedy. This has nothing to do with
• 48:28
  Speaker 3: the Bay of Piggs. That's where Kennedy was going to
• 48:31
  Speaker 3: withdraw fifteen thousand I think it was fifteen thousand troops
• 48:35
  Speaker 3: from Vietnam. Am I right, Ralph, Yeah, yeah, yeah, that
• 48:38
  Speaker 3: was enzym two sixty three.
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: In anticipation of a complete withdrawal from what we cared.
• 48:44
  Speaker 3: Right from Vetnam. Now what this did. This affected military
• 48:48
  Speaker 3: contracts from bel helicopter, Collins Radio, and the arms deal
• 48:53
  Speaker 3: of the M sixteen modification. Millions and millions of dollars
• 48:57
  Speaker 3: would have been lost if he de escalated the war
• 49:00
  Speaker 3: in Vietnam. You're asking me my view of why he
• 49:03
  Speaker 3: was killed. So at the same time, in Awai, attended
• 49:09
  Speaker 3: by different political advisers, including LBJ. A directive called Insoun
• 49:16
  Speaker 3: six two seven four was written, which overrode two sixty three,
• 49:24
  Speaker 3: and that meant that we were going to increase troops
• 49:27
  Speaker 3: to Vietnam, and we were going to escalate the Vietnam
• 49:31
  Speaker 3: War and the contracts that were going to be lost
• 49:36
  Speaker 3: would be restored. Am I talking out of school off?
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: That's correct? And President Kennedy never had a chance to
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: even see that memo because he was killed the next
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: day the next day in Dallas, so it all kind
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: of ties together. Basically he had run a foul of
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: the memo. Was a military industrial complex.
• 49:56
  Speaker 3: All right? A memo was written in two seventy four
• 49:59
  Speaker 3: in Awai, the same or the day before Kennedy was killed,
• 50:03
  Speaker 3: Is that right? The timeline right, all right? And that
• 50:07
  Speaker 3: overrode Kennedy's previous deal. Now shortly after that if if
• 50:11
  Speaker 3: history made people remember history, Johnson started out the Gulf,
• 50:17
  Speaker 3: the Tonkin Gulf War, where we've did a red flag
• 50:21
  Speaker 3: and shot our own damn boat, killed our own couple
• 50:25
  Speaker 3: of our own guys in order to escalate justification for
• 50:29
  Speaker 3: putting troops into Vietnam. That's what led to the killing
• 50:32
  Speaker 3: of JFK. Not the Bay of pigs, not the air cover,
• 50:36
  Speaker 3: not this false narrative that's been put out by the
• 50:38
  Speaker 3: federal government for over sixty years, which also, i might add,
• 50:43
  Speaker 3: George Jonadis knew all about this, And so there's a
• 50:49
  Speaker 3: record out there that they don't want even today, don't
• 50:53
  Speaker 3: want us talking about. And the book Deep Cover, Shallow
• 50:57
  Speaker 3: Grazes of Thorn and that side, and what we're talking
• 51:01
  Speaker 3: about here today is another thorn, another little jab. That
• 51:05
  Speaker 3: is time for the truth to be exposed about what
• 51:08
  Speaker 3: the hell really happened back in the sixties with the
• 51:11
  Speaker 3: Cuban missile crisis, the JFK assassination. Am I off based here,
• 51:15
  Speaker 3: Ralph not at all.
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: No, So it is a book that you know, gives
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: you a different perspective on history, but it is also
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: very relevant today because these same forces that are that
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: are very powerful and operate at a site they have
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: a big effect on our foreign policy and the direction
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: of our government. And these are forces that like war
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: because war is something that these companies can profit off
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: of hugely, and that's why we seem to have continuing,
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: never ending conflicts in countries like Afghanistan and Iraq and
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: so on and so forth, and now we have one
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: in Iran. There's another one in the Ukraine.
• 52:12
  Speaker 3: The sell weapons, sell the weapons. Yeah, okay, follow the
• 52:17
  Speaker 3: money exactly.
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: And you you talked about this CIA and cocaine involvement
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: if that was back in the sixties happening, and today
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: fentanol is such a big drug now that is being
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: brought in America. They're saying through cartels China, you know
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: all that. So I'm sure the government probably has the
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: same kind of hand involved as well.
• 52:49
  Speaker 3: Purpose there's an old government or CIA is saying it's
• 52:52
  Speaker 3: the same but different. What I mean by that is
• 52:57
  Speaker 3: that all you got to do is change the name.
• 53:00
  Speaker 3: M keep the operation the same, but change the name.
• 53:03
  Speaker 3: We did that with School of Americas when they got
• 53:06
  Speaker 3: to be too hot and with so much illegal, crazy
• 53:09
  Speaker 3: crap going on with School of Americas, which then we
• 53:13
  Speaker 3: change the name. Am I right, Ralph?
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: You know what the purpose of bringing drugs? I mean
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: they say, oh, we just want to look at their
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: whatever flight cam.
• 53:25
  Speaker 3: How about contributions and filtration the money and take a percentage?
• 53:30
  Speaker 3: I mean, what's the motive for all that? Follow them up?
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: I don't believe what they're saying is the truth, but
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: it's got to be a reason. Are they trying to
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: kill Americans. They're trying to what are they what is
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: their point besides money?
• 53:42
  Speaker 3: One of these days are we Americans are going to
• 53:44
  Speaker 3: wake up and realize they've been a coup going on
• 53:46
  Speaker 3: here in this country since Kennedy was killed? Am I right, Ralph? Yeah?
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: I think you have to if you look at if
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: you look at the people, the money people behind a
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: lot of these things, and the arms merchants. Yeah, they
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: don't care about people. They don't care about human life.
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: That they care about power and enriching themselves. And they
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: the unfortunate part is that they have so much power
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: over politicians who are elected, over our news media, that
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: they're extremely powerful, and uh, you know every you know,
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: people in the United States keep fighting with one another
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: over who's to blame, and they skate by. They're unnamed,
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: they're deeply they're they're behind deep cover. They operate in
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: the shadows, and they don't care if it's Republican or Democrat,
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: as long as they have their wars and they have
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: their ability to make you know, billions of dollars Ukraine
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: or killed or Russians or Americans or Iraqis or you
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: know whoever it is that they don't care.
• 54:59
  Speaker 3: Money talks and both walks. That's the name of the game.
• 55:03
  Speaker 3: We lost an ambassador that nobody ever talks about anymore
• 55:06
  Speaker 3: because he was trying to expose of everything that Ralph
• 55:09
  Speaker 3: just brought up. And that was Ambassador Stevens, And that
• 55:12
  Speaker 3: was a Libyan arms deal, steer missiles. Where did all
• 55:16
  Speaker 3: those steer missiles go? You don't even hear that mentioned anymore.
• 55:20
  Speaker 3: When you get into the arms pipeline, you don't hear
• 55:23
  Speaker 3: what really goes on. There's too much money involved. Now
• 55:28
  Speaker 3: what does that money mean? Kickbacks in the campaign contributions,
• 55:32
  Speaker 3: that's another thing you don't hear about anymore. So, for instance,
• 55:35
  Speaker 3: I can make nine million dollars on a deal and
• 55:37
  Speaker 3: I'll give you three percent for your campaign contribution if
• 55:40
  Speaker 3: you let that nine million dollars go into my bank account.
• 55:44
  Speaker 3: That's the name of the game. Money talks, bullshit walks,
• 55:48
  Speaker 3: that's our political system. That's me, my name, plumb me.
• 55:52
  Speaker 3: I'll say that. I mean, I don't like to get
• 55:54
  Speaker 3: involved in the politics, and I try my best to
• 55:57
  Speaker 3: stay out of conspiracy theories. The book Deep Cover Shallow
• 56:00
  Speaker 3: Graves touches. Just very lightly, am I right?
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: Ralph?
• 56:04
  Speaker 3: Very lightly? On this program. We're in deep deep trouble.
• 56:08
  Speaker 3: We're in deep deep ship this American society right now.
• 56:12
  Speaker 3: If we don't get our heads out of our butts,
• 56:14
  Speaker 3: we're doomed. Well anyway, now I'm getting into politics. I'll apologize.
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: You also talk about mentalized. We're the apartment.
• 56:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so normalization.
• 56:28
  Speaker 4: Yes, so people don't know, people don't know what you're doing,
• 56:33
  Speaker 4: or the next person is so it's so, you know,
• 56:35
  Speaker 4: so in the box, so to speak, and would.
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: Just get Yeah, he would, he would get. He was
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: like a he was assigned to a certain area. His
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: his area was Miami, so he would hang out around
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: the airport. People would approach him that he stayed in
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: a CIA hotel. He hung out in certain areas and
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: guys would come up to him and give them what
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: they called a bump, And a bump was like follow me.
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: Let's go sit in the library, or let's go sit
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: in the park, and I'm going to give you some information,
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: and you're gonna you're gonna go to a particular local
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: airport and find a particular find a particular airplane with
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: this tail number and in that airplane is going to
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: be a flight plane, and you're gonna you're gonna fly
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: to Ohio or whatever it is, and you're going to
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: pick up arms there that was stolen from a National
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: Guard armory and you're going to fly them to this
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: spot in Cuba, and or you're gonna fly them wherever.
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: So so you so a pilot, a cutout pilot like Tosh.
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: He doesn't know what the mission is. He doesn't know
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: who ordered the mission. He doesn't know what the mission
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: is part of. He's just told, you know, take go,
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: go on this flight. He he doesn't even know the
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: identity of the person who told him about the mission, right,
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: Fred said, Sloppy Joe's in Miami, off of Best Game
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: Boulevard in McAllister Street was one of our places where
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: we got these bumps.
• 58:14
  Speaker 3: The bumps. We would go over to the Best Game
• 58:16
  Speaker 3: Park and sit on the beach and then ure's here's
• 58:20
  Speaker 3: your deal. Go out to the Lantana. There's an aircraft
• 58:22
  Speaker 3: out there. Six seven X ray. Inside that C forty
• 58:26
  Speaker 3: six is found your maps and stuff like that.
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: This is where you go.
• 58:30
  Speaker 3: This is the weather briefing, this is this, this is
• 58:32
  Speaker 3: that these are the frequencies. Uh, this is the AI
• 58:35
  Speaker 3: disease on codes to get back into the country undetected.
• 58:39
  Speaker 3: That was the kind of information we got. We didn't
• 58:41
  Speaker 3: know who was on that plane. We didn't know who
• 58:43
  Speaker 3: we was picking up. We didn't know what the hell
• 58:45
  Speaker 3: was going on. We were compartmentalized, that was the word
• 58:48
  Speaker 3: you were asking about. So our job was aviation. I
• 58:52
  Speaker 3: was in the aviation section, so I would Johnny Rosselli
• 58:56
  Speaker 3: was a mafia guy who was a good friend of mine.
• 58:58
  Speaker 3: Sam jack Connell was a good friend of mine. We
• 59:02
  Speaker 3: used to get paid. The question came back, how did
• 59:05
  Speaker 3: we get paid? Well, there'd be a receipt, a check
• 59:09
  Speaker 3: from a company Riddle Airlines of Miami or Mountain States Aviation.
• 59:15
  Speaker 3: Wait a minute, no, John Martino, who run the Gamley
• 59:18
  Speaker 3: casinos in Nevana, would pay us with poker chips and
• 59:21
  Speaker 3: we would cash them in. No record. That's how we
• 59:25
  Speaker 3: got our money. Does that make sense to you, Amy
• 59:27
  Speaker 3: telling us right, brother? Yeah, yeah, another whole the whole
• 59:31
  Speaker 3: ideas cutout.
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: So if somebody spoke up, you could completely deny it
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: because it sounded so fantastical. What do you mean you
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: were paid paid by chips from the Tropicano Casino. That
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: doesn't Well, the point is is Tosh just point out
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: is that there would be no receipt right, no true,
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: no paper trill. Somebody just handing you a bag of
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: chips and said, here's your pay for the mail for
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: the month.
• 59:58
  Speaker 3: Sometimes a cutout that would come take us to go
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 3: over to the park to get our briefing to where
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 3: we're going to go pick up these plans. He give
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 3: us a handful of chips. We're already paid. So sometime
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 3: and okay, we get back to Miami. Now here's another
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 3: thing we got to bring up. I want to bring
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 3: this up since we got all this sex for girls
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 3: going on, should I bring this up?
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: Ralph or we got gohead?
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 3: Yes, we got time for the Corn Club? Yep, ma'am.
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: Do we have time for the Corn Club?
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 3: Yes?
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: Yes?
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 3: Or baa Evana on the streets of Havannah, there was
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 3: a lot of little orphan girls twelve thirteen, fourteen sixteen.
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 3: The biggest problem and this was my testimony, and they
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 3: told me to keep my mouth shut when I was
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 3: going to testify to this. There was a club in
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 3: DC called the Corn Club. Bobby Baker's scandal brought it
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 3: to the surface. Some people know what I'm talking about,
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 3: other people don't. In this generation, what we would do.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 3: The biggest problem we had was getting some of our
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 3: politicians from Washington, d C. Out of Havana casinos sobered
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 3: up on our airplanes and get them covertly back into
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 3: the United States undetected, so that they could go and
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 3: vote in Washington, d C. So they was called gambling junkets.
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 3: So they would come from Washington.
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: D C.
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 3: We would fly them down to Key West Marathon Key
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 3: into Havana and they would spend the weekend playing and
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 3: worn around in Miami. They'd be so drunk that we
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 3: used to have to try to literally pour them back
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 3: into our airplanes, our Sea forty sixes and fly them
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 3: back into the United States. That was the biggest problem
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 3: we had, getting them sobered up and getting them back
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 3: into the United States. Here was the other problem. Sometimes
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 3: they brought these little offering girls twelve, thirteen, fourteen, sixteen
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 3: years old back with them and took them to the
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 3: Farm Club up in d C and form them out
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 3: as prostitutes. Now I just set a mouthful, didn't I.
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: Ralph mm hmmm.
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 3: No, I believe all that yeah, that's truth. Now that
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 3: can be verified, and it can be verified. That's what
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 3: we did. And a lot of US polots did not
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 3: like that, of course not. And I mean, what do
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 3: you do in those years? You can't use the day's
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 3: standards in the day's judgments and put it back on
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 3: back in those of fifties and sixties. What do you
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 3: do in those years? The US government could do no wrong,
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 3: and especially a politician that had the votes in Washington
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 3: d C. Oh, my my god, you I idolize those guys.
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 3: I mean, whatever the president said was gospel truth.
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: You did not go against that.
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 3: I mean, my gosh. Our government wouldn't do something like that. Well,
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 3: the Bobby Baker scandal, and your listeners can verify this
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 3: and go on the internet. That's one thing about the internet.
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 3: It doesn't take thirty days or forty days or sixty
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 3: days to verify anything. You can do it instantaneously nowadays.
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 3: Look up Bobby Baker, look up the Quorn Club, look
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 3: up all that in the d C. So what we
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 3: were doing, we were flying little girls with our politicians
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 3: secretly covertly back into the United States to be formed
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 3: out as prostitutes in Washington d C through the Bobby
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 3: Baker Corn Club. I just set a mouthful in our
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 3: alf Now, did I lie? Yeah, that's going on back.
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: I think they still do that today as well. And
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: exactly yeah, exactly. And and I talked to another gentleman.
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 2: He said that they're called the honeypot girls, you know
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 2: with the politicians. They try to get close to the politician.
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: So they got something to I guess bribe them if
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 2: they don't listen or something happens, so they got evidence.
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 3: Of that, you know. That's right. Well, I know a
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 3: politician that got set up wrongly on the situation like that.
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 3: And his name is Gary R. With Donald right, so
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 3: sex sex as well. Anyway, it would get into all that.
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 3: There's a thousand stories in the Naked City, as they say.
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, did living such a secretive life affect your family
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 2: and the people closest.
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 3: To you, Yes, ma'am, Yes, ma'am. I've been married five times,
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 3: I got sick kids, have nothing to be proud of.
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 3: I'm not proud of it at all. I mean, but
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 3: when the deal hit me and Dallas, I lost the family.
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 3: Leading two lives like that. Lying, when you lie to
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 3: a woman, it's over a woman. It's not over your
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 3: CIA opportune. I can remember one time I'm trying to
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 3: tell my wife, honey, I got to really sit down
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 3: and tell you something here. I worked for the CIA.
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 3: Oh shit, No, you're out there horning around with some
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 3: woman that's tru it. Didn't come home for a week.
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 3: That's the reason that you've got slips in your or
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 3: gambling slips in your briefcase. That's the reason. Where'd you
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 3: get these poker chips? You've been hoorn around in Havana,
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 3: you know? So Hey, yeah, yeah, I went through. Yeah,
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 3: you asked me a question. Did it affect my personal life?
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 3: It lost more than one life, okay, more than one kid,
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 3: more than one family, even today at eighty eight years old. Yeah,
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 3: I look back on this. I'm not proud of a
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 3: lot of that stuff. I made a lot of bad
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 3: decisions and I made some good ones. But uh, anyway,
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 3: that's another book, another book.
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but yeah, it's impossible to lead a normal family
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: life and to be unable to tell your wife and
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 1: your family what you're doing right, why you're way disappear
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 1: for a week where you no, of course not.
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 3: Didn't They do a series on that a movie series
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 3: about a guy I led to lives or something like that.
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 3: It was based on all that. I mean, not quite
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 3: as severe, but don't mean to interrupt there, But all
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 3: these thoughts come buy when we do these kind of interviews,
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 3: I don't really like to do them, but anyway, whatever.
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's it's, uh, yeah, it's almost impossible to
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 1: maintain a normal marriage under those circumstances.
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 3: The thing is, I average eight to five cannot even
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 3: comprehend what in the hell I'm talking about. Others you
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 3: can't really believe that we as a government, an element
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 3: within our government is so secretive that people like me,
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 3: and there's many of us exist was liking with some
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 3: pieces over the years, over the decades, come out about
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 3: what we have done. Other names, there'll be other names
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 3: of you know, Plumbley and William H. Pearson, cabrell I
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 3: gotta tell your story about that, running guns in the
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 3: cast into the Inwald jungle, landing on an old muddy
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 3: strip one day and a Mexican guy comes up to
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 3: me with a machete and he says, who are you?
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 3: And I said, I'm one Cabrello, and he says, sure
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 3: you are. Oh, you know, I mean my Mexican and
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 3: my Spanish in those days wasn't exactly the best. But
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 3: so those humor stories about all this too, but also
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 3: there's some serious, deadly stories about all this. Anyway, we
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 3: have done that you.
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 2: Would you hope readers understand about the world of covert
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 2: operation and.
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 3: No, there's no way to the world. All you can
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 3: do is put bread Like we're done, didn't this Put
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 3: the bread crumbs out, follow the bread crumbs and see
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 3: where it leads you. That's hard dictate what's the true
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 3: is I was, don't believe anything Ralph tells you anything.
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, one thing you'll one takeaway from this is
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: that you'll you'll you'll realize that the Warrant Commission report
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: was completely fictitious and was a was a cover up,
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 1: and that the truth of what happened in Dallas was
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 1: was much deeper and more tragic. And uh and we
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: watched the president, a very popular president, get his head
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 1: blown off and they blamed it on a man who
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: was a young patriot who then was killed two days
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: later in front of everybody.
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 3: And I'm hoping this book will redeem Lee. Lee was
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 3: a good person. I mean wasn't that close, but wasn't
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 3: that far away. But the seven and seventy six pages
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 3: about his life as a bunch of bs was. There's
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 3: another side of Lee Harvey Osweald that hasn't been told
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 3: and will never be told, or it this way will
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 3: never be accepted because of bullshit that the federal government
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 3: has put out over decades after decades, after decades.
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna bring up one more thing right here.
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 3: For sixty two years, a friend of mine by the
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 3: name of George jo Nidas who was also known as
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 3: Jay Baker and Mark Gilbert. He was a good friend.
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 3: He worked out of J. M. Wade. He didn't exist
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 3: for sixty two years. He didn't exist. Am I talking
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 3: out of school? Ralph? He didn't exist?
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 1: Suddenly denied, but name came up. Though that person doesn't
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 1: doesn't exist. We don't know who he is. Now suddenly
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: because of the recent release of documents, he does exist.
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 3: So admitted that they held it and they didn't even
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 3: give a reason why. But the point is this, there's
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 3: hundreds of guys like me and joe Ja Nidas that
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 3: you don't know about. And then if they come out
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 3: and try to talk, they're discredited to call character assassination.
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 3: So okay, let me put it this way. Give me
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 3: a blank letterhead memo where it says FBI, Department of Justice,
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 3: or the CIA, a blank letterhead memo, and I'll write
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 3: anything on Calisiu's Ralph. I'll put Ralph, Ralph, you serve
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 3: time in prison. Ralph, you wrote checks all over the country. Ralph,
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 3: You're not who you say you are, because I've got
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 3: a document here that says you're not even Ralph y
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 3: a federal document. I mean whatever the federal government says,
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 3: that's the gospel truth. I've got proof you don't exist.
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 3: I've got proof right here in writing on a letterhead
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 3: memo that says you wrote checks all over the country.
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 3: So wait a minute, what's going on here? I got
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 3: a proof here? But yet there's no fingerprints, there's no
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 3: photo mug shots, and there's no records of you being
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 3: locked up with that memo that I wrote on your
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 3: deal says that you work. Are you getting my drift here?
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 3: I think we lost her? Yeah, Okay, I guess that's it.
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 3: All right? Well it's ben. I guess we run out
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 3: of time and didn't know it. I guess, so I
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 3: guess that's all we're allowed to say. Yeah, there you go.
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 3: You got it right there, okay, okaysh oh here, tass,
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 3: you better shut up?
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 1: Who said that? All?
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 3: Huh, tass, you better shut up now my dog's going crazy.
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 3: Uh oh that's weird, tass, you better shut up. Hold on,
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 3: got some about it to stand by.
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 2: Are you still there? My power is out, it's currently
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 2: off right now, and I'm using my hotspot on my
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 2: phone to connect with you.
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 1: It's been great talking to you, and if you need
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 1: anything from us, just just let us know.
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, but I would like for you to close
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 2: out and tell us where people can find you.
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 1: Okay, So I would just say, you know, look for
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: the book A deep Cover, Shallow Grave. It's on Amazon
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 1: and it's in bookstores and you can find me. I'm
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 1: at Ralph pazzuloauthor dot com, and my my podcast is
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 1: called Heroes Behind Headlines and it's on uh, Spotify and
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 1: Apple YouTube, et cetera. We appreciate your your having us on.
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 3: Thank you.
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 2: I appreciate you guys so much. I'm so sorry.
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 3: To be talking about conspiracy now there out to get right?
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that is so crazy, right, all of a sudden,
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 2: my electric goes out completely. This usually never happens, especially
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 2: what is, say, Friday at eight o'clock in the morning.
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 2: We don't even have a storm. It's actually really still
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 2: right now. There's no crazy wind or anything, so it's.
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 1: Kind of I've just got a message on his phone.
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't want to get get well anyway. Maybe
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 3: we should bring this up, Ralph. I don't know. Okay,
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 3: it just does ill since you brought it up all.
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 5: See if you said, well, I don't know, you better
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 5: shut upows you got listeners.
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 3: I mean, I'll look at it. That's a problemant for you.
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 2: Well, gentlemen, thank you so much for taking the time.
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 3: Thank you, Thank you.
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 1: I hope your electricity comes on soon.
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 3: You got anything else?
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 1: Just reach out?
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 2: Thanks guys for listening, and I'll see you on the
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 2: next one. Hue ho ca cole.
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 6: Bye, Uncle, break up, I don't say again? So looking
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 6: up swearing my paint again? Tell me? Is it too soon? Uncle?
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 6: Make a mom going crazy?
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 7: I know Tuesday, You're not afraid, so it just sping.
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 7: I'm nothing to booze, but I'm not that away.
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 6: Take them a sweet time. I don't want to be
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 6: the one to.
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 8: Cry uncle, make him until say and so I'm like
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 8: walking yet sweating my father into again.
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 6: Tell me it.
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 9: Isn't too soon, making molting crazy.
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 10: N s shake when you walk into the room, ikay,
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 10: thing straight, there's no one like you.
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 9: How long in the chase it's feeling with you walk
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 9: away from this tonight, I'm.
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 6: With you in my coat breaking most I don't know
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 6: whish they get.
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 8: So I don't like king up, twitting my phone into
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 8: losing loc making most I don't know I'm saying it so.
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 6: Ouking yet, sweating my phone and intu again so many
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 6: as it too. So it's going crazy.
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 9: Crazy, going crazy crazy over crazy, going crazy crazy over
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 9: like PC.
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 8: I don't mean I'm saying anything.
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 6: OK, there, you're going crazy