Latest / The Christian Reeve Podcast / Karl Swanepoel | The Christian Reeve Podcast #198

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Karl Swanepoel | The Christian Reeve Podcast #198 · The Christian Reeve Podcast

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Hello and welcome to another episode of the Christian Reef
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podcast. Today's guest is the founder and
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CEO of Revel answer. His name is Carl Swanepoel.
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Welcome to the show. How you doing?
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I'm doing well, thanks. Thanks for having me.
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How are you? It's a pleasure to have you man.
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And yeah, I'm doing very well. It's been a while since I've
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done a show in the morning, like, this must sound strange
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for anyone that's new to the show because a lot of the time
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when I do this show, I tend to have guests.
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Maybe likes a Stateside and there.
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In a complete different time zones I've got a kind of like
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try and adjust accordingly and I mean I don't mind either way I
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love just doing this show but you do have to kind of adjust
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yourself a little bit and you know, like maybe I'm caning a
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bit too much coffee around, 5:00 6:00 p.m. so it's nice to do it
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in the morning for a change, but yeah.
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Anyway, let's just jump straight into you and I want to kind of
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get behind who you are a little bit more because I love the idea
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that you've got. This company, there's a lot we
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can of ground, we can cover. Just to give you a bit of
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background on me. I've got a marketing background,
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so I've been in the industry for several years.
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So and I've worked in business, studying business, all my life.
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I've always been a bit of a big business nerd fan if that's a
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thing that I just a family business.
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That's the thing, isn't it? Yeah, people like things like
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Shark Tank and whatever so that you can be a fan of business.
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Anyway, Talk us through the beginning of your business
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career up. Until this point, it's all just
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walk us through because I saw on your LinkedIn and various other
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places online that you've kind of got quite a story career,
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there's a lot of different Industries, you've worked in and
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different levels and stuff, but walk us through in your own
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words, your career so far, the sure.
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I mean, I guess hard to think of a exactly when it started but I
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guess you know, right at the beginning where it started was
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Was when I was 13. I decided that I wanted to be my
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own boss and that I never wanted to work for anyone else.
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I don't know why I decided that but I had a very strong belief
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there and it really stuck around.
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So quite quickly, I realized I needed to take it very seriously
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because that's not an easy thing to pull off.
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So I started by trying to make money online.
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I found freelancing platform so started freelancing on there.
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Quickly grew unhappy Be with how these platforms operated.
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So I decided to start my own freelancing platform at the age
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of 15, started with about 200 pounds, kind of a crazy story
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behind that. But in the end, I had to sell it
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because I was too young to have a PayPal account and they
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didn't, they didn't let me, let me keep operating it.
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So I sold that just before my 16th birthday and yeah, since
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then I've been involved. Hold on a few other projects.
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So, mainly kind of a marketing and web agency that I started
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had an office on my local High Street.
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That was, again a really stupid idea because it just the rent,
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you know, ate all of what would have been profit and we could
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have easily run it remotely. That's something I want to ask
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you right off the bat. What do you make of remote?
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Like the idea of just say companies not having a physical
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location because a lot of the companies I've worked for in the
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last two year and a half, I would even Bring out like a, we
3:30
work space or something like that or they just wouldn't have
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an office at all. It'd be completely remote and I
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am with you I think as far as business costs are concerned
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unless you for some reason have to have a physical location to
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sort of operate out of. I don't see why you should
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invest that money there. I mean a lot of the companies
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I've worked for in the past you can tell it's all about like oh
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we want to have the big Swanky office in the city location to
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show off, I get that. But at the same time, Oh, why?
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You don't love me like it's that I think is much more impressive
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be like. Hey, look at these spreadsheets.
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Look how well we're doing. But yeah, no.
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I mean, just yeah, let's just talk about it.
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I mean, what? What.
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Okay, let's let's rephrase the question a little bit.
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Obviously you were paying a lot of money for you know something
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that you weren't really getting something out of.
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But were there any other things that kind of tweet you to think?
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Okay maybe roommate working is better.
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So better option for me. Well I mean cook covid-19.
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Big piece on the 18 year old that got an office.
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But you know, in hindsight it was such a silly thing to do and
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now where we could very easily get an office and we have a much
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larger team at Revlon so we don't have an office we were
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completely remotely but then we meet up every couple of months
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and kind of rent rent an Airbnb or something and just kind of
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get together and brainstorm things together.
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So that seems to be quite a nice balance.
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Yes. And it's interesting as well.
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Because all right, right there. You said like an Airbnb
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somewhere cause lack of probably like a house setting or
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something more relaxed. Like I I personally feel like
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it's you can get so much more done from home and in the
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companies that I work for over the years, you know, sometimes
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it's a lot of time you have up hybrid model which I think is it
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works? You know, if you've got like a
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physical location sometimes it's nice to go into an office or
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meet up with the team. You know, I totally get that but
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I don't know like they're there are Some faces that I worked.
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Where like I actually remember one place, I work.
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I had to actually go to a different floor of the building
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to get away from the noise because people were just so
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loud. And I was like, I can't get
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anything done here, but when I was at home, surprise surprise,
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I got a lot more done. And I don't know if that's
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because of the noise factor or just feeling comfortable or
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whatever, but like, I don't know, it's I think how the the
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measures that you go to to meet your staff feel more
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comfortable. Generally speaking will at some
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point equate to more productivity.
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I mean, you know, it's like obviously it depends where you
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work and what the goal is and, you know, people are invested in
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that Vision but the same time. Yeah, I don't know, I think it
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goes a lot further to make them feel comfortable rather than
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just being like. Hey, here's that pinball machine
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in the middle of the office that we're never going to use.
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Let's do this. Like I don't know, I hate
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startup culture I'm sorry it's just that element of it.
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Everything else is great. It's always fun to be part of
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something that's growing in the beginning stages but I've seen a
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lot of like major companies. Replicate this like bigger scale
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companies and it's like, I don't know, for me, I feel The most
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important aspect asset that you're going to have is the
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people in your company. That way always comes down to
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that because they're the people that make the vision happen.
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But anyway, let's move it forward.
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Talk us through specifically. How Revel answer came to be.
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So you gave us a little bit of background behind, you know,
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your career up to this point and why you made the decision to
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kind of move in that sphere, but toga specifically about this
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particular business. Sure.
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I'm so yeah. I mean, Came from being a
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freelancer realizing that freelancing platforms on serving
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Freelancers rate. So that was back in 2014, 2015
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and then started my own platform.
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Sold that then started working with clients directly and not
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via freelancing platforms. And then when covid came, we
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were in a covid lockdown in early 20 21, I was looking at
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his freelancing platforms that I started my journey on you know,
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six or seven years before that. And realize that they haven't
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changed a thing, you know, I really thought that they were
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massively outdated back in 2014 2015, and they hadn't changed
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anything back in 2021. They haven't changed anything
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today, you know, and they're just so set on their ways, and
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it's really not compatible with the way that we work remotely
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nowadays. So that's when I decided to
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start Revlon. So and you know, do something
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about it so you're not the only company that's obviously
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offering freelance. Oh, I freelance platform.
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Should we say? I think I'm not mistaken this
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freelancer up work. The other platforms 50, Etc, me.
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They all kind of very as far as like what their particular
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offering is. I'm on some of those four,
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things like voice acting and copywriting and you know, I've
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had like some success for it but not really, but that's just my
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personal experience. But something that kind of stood
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out to me is that you guys charge zero commission.
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And so I was like, okay. So, how are you making your
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money? Like what like without being to
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proving, but it is kind of my job.
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How are you making money? Is it through advertising or is
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it like some sort of a freemium model where you pay for features
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down the line? Like, how exactly are you guys
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making your business? Yeah.
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So it's a freemium model. We have an optional Plan called
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Revlon Surplus which just unlock some extra features like being
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able to send more proposals to clients and a couple of other
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things. But you know that can the Ian's
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being at zero percent, you know, it has another benefit to.
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So on a lot of these plants, in fact, all of the platforms that
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you mentioned and a few more of the very large freelancing
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platforms. They rely on commission fees.
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But because of that, they have to police how you communicate so
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you can video call. You can't talk of platform in
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any way because then they won't get their revenue.
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So by removing commission fees, we can also allow people to work
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flexibly and not get in the way of their workflow.
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What's your thoughts on that? I mean, let's say for argument's
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And sake that someone did want to take business outside of your
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platform. How do you feel about that?
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I'm wheat. Why mean?
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We don't care what sort of the pay is this?
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Well, the platform exist, take to get people new clients, not
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to sort of, you know, worm our way into existing freelancer
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client relationships, and just try and skim some money off of
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every single transaction. I don't think that's productive
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and in any way. Yeah, I to know, like I get why
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those companies are doing that but at the same time it to me.
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It just feels like a lack of trust.
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It's like, all right. But you get you're going to make
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some money out of it anyway, but let us a bit.
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It that I think I think if nothing else it should be.
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It could be restructured in a way, couldn't it?
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If you could sort of say, like okay, you can either pay this
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amount and we basically get you together and you may not have
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contacted each other previously or may not have even been able
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to contact with each other for whatever reason.
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So that's like one kind of I don't know benefit, I suppose of
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being on that. And then, you know, you could
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structure it in a way that instead of saying, oh no, we're
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going to prevent you from being able to take conversation
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elsewhere. You Can Build That Wall.
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How about? We help you to facilitate a
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better conversation, we give you tools, we give you resources
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that, you know, would make it better for you to stay on this
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platform and use it as opposed to taking your business
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elsewhere, you know, I mean, I've, I've got to say, like, it
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always comes down to trust, doesn't it?
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Especially between Is to Consumer, like I know in this
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sense, it's a company sort of being like the middleman, but I
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don't know. I think I like your approach bit
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better. I think it's just better to just
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get people together doing business and, you know, by kind
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of being less on their shoulders.
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I think they're more inclined to then, you know, take up a model
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such as yours with the past models.
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Like you, like the service that I you know what, maybe I will
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pay for that rather than yeah. I don't know.
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I think there's something to that. but anyway, but people who
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are nervous about the prospect of freelancing in your opinion,
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why should they consider freelancer?
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I mean I'd have to know why why they're nervous about it, I
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suppose, but I'd say with. Yeah, I mean freelancing it's
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it's a great way to work flexibly and kind of Be Your Own
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Boss. I think it's very similar to
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entrepreneurship and I think the mean what So, you know, being
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an, I mean, there's a, there's a funny meme that always
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circulates on LinkedIn where it's like, you know, I didn't
12:30
want to work and my 25. Now, I work 24/7, right?
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So it's not, you know, it's not necessarily like easier or more
12:39
flexible and in some ways than working a nine-to-five but I
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think what it comes down to is the same question, I asked my
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self worth, you know why being an entrepreneur is definitely
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the right thing for me which is you have to ask yourself what is
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worse for you, is it worse for you to be?
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He stressed or is it worse for you to be bored?
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And for most people, it's worse to be stressed.
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And that's why, you know, most people are happier with the kind
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of a 9 to 5, but for me, it's much worse to be bored.
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So, what I'm doing, it's I probably get more stress doing
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this than I would doing some kind of mundane, you know, safer
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kind of job, but I'd be bored out of my mind and that to me is
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worse. So I'd say someone for
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freelancing, something you said at the beginning of the show,
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kind of That out to me with relation to this.
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You said that you know you wanted to work for yourself.
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You just knew from day one foamy I realized through the course of
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working for various companies that for whatever reason, I
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don't like being told what to do.
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Now, I'll put a caveat to this. It's not that I have a issue of
13:41
someone telling me what to do. It's more an issue of let's
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suppose you're in a meeting room.
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And you know, that the thing that your boss is suggesting
13:52
won't work for whatever reason, maybe you And your team have
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tried this. By the way, this comes from
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personal experience. I'm not just making this up.
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So, you know, that this thing isn't going to work, and your
14:01
boss says, Yeah. But you know we're gonna do this
14:05
anyway and you're like, why and they and they just say, oh we
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just you know, just just do it. So you go, okay, you do what
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your boss tells you, right? And then it doesn't work.
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And then several months later you go to review, inevitably and
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they're like, I don't understand it.
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Understand you're like, well if we'd have done it this way that
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I suggested it would have worked and therein, you get a lot of
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arguments like that happening, which that, and that's what
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bothers me. Nothing else.
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No, I don't care about Egos and care about, you know, being the
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boss. I got to be honest.
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I hate leading most of the time. Yeah, I'll do it if I need to.
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But like, I just like being part of a team where what you say and
14:47
do is valued and your, it's been, you know, it's a bit like
14:52
being in a band, I think in some ways and here we are this
14:56
analogy, but if you play for the song, the song will be better.
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If you pay for yourself. It's probably going to suck and
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I feel like a team setting is a lot like that.
15:05
It's like if you're thinking about the project overall, what
15:07
will work for the project? And you think about how your
15:10
contributions will help or potentially hinder that and then
15:14
you're thinking more about the project that large and it's
15:17
probably more likely to succeed. But then if you're just thinking
15:19
about yourself or you're just trying to get your ideas in, I
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don't know, be the best salesperson of the particular
15:26
quarter. Like it's eventually it's going
15:29
to come back to bite you and I don't know.
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I think that Because of that, that's maybe why we're seeing a
15:34
lot more people going down the freelancer, it because you're
15:38
actively managing yourself. And as you pointed out before,
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you know, the reality is it is a kind of a 24-hour gig.
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I mean, I've been self-employed now for quite some time and you
15:49
know, I gotta go back and forth, sometimes I go into roles where,
15:52
you know, I'm back working with people again.
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And then other times, I'm just doing project to project.
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And right now, I'm actively like searching for work all the time
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and it's that in of itself. Is a job just searching for
16:04
work. So it's invaluable to have
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platforms such as yours where it's, you know, actively trying
16:10
to put people together. And that's really what it is is
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putting Freelancers with, you know, clients businesses,
16:18
whatever and getting a dialogue going and doing business the way
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it really should be done. Because again, like I got, you
16:26
know, I've worked with companies where instead of maybe taking on
16:31
a freelancer or taking on a company and just kind of working
16:35
with them for a particular project or an ongoing project,
16:38
they just rather employ someone which it has its benefits and
16:43
its weaknesses but I think sometimes it is better to just
16:45
look at the project and and go with that rather than you know
16:50
just taken someone on board and go.
16:51
Okay well we got them for 40 hours.
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What can we use that with? And it's it's just a different
16:56
way of approach. I'm not saying necessarily it's
16:58
completely wrong, but in my experience over the years it's
17:02
always been better when you just focus primarily on ways to
17:06
achieve that project and you know be that bringing in some
17:12
extra manpower to do that or you know maybe just trialing a new
17:17
type of Technology such as like analytics and stuff and doing it
17:20
that way, whatever, you know, Anyway, let's move it forward.
17:26
In your opinion, what are the most common mistakes that
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Freelancers should be aware of or should avoid?
17:34
Yeah, I mean it's definitely around the pricing side.
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I think because what will happen often times is, you know,
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certainly true in my experience and in conversations, I have had
17:44
with other Freelancers is that say you're speaking to a client
17:48
they ask, you know, how much would it cost to, I don't know,
17:51
build build me a website. You say, you know, you look at
17:53
the brief everything you say. Two thousand pounds, they say,
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oh sorry, I've only got 1500. Would you do it for 1,500?
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And then you say, yes and that's a terrible terrible thing to do
18:06
because, you know, you might think, oh, okay, you know, I'm
18:09
still getting paid, I don't know 50 pounds an hour or whatever to
18:13
build this whatever, but you've now taught that client to, you
18:17
know, that they can expect you to compromise and completely
18:20
devalued your services. So the right way to respond to a
18:23
question like that isn't a turn, the client.
18:25
Own but the right rates are a sponsor that is, let's say, I
18:28
say to, you know, I'll pull you 10 page website for 2,000 pounds
18:34
and then you come back to me and say oh sorry if any got 1,500.
18:36
Would you do 1,500? You say yeah.
18:38
You know, I will do it for 1,500 but and that case, I can only
18:41
build these six pages, you know. But but if you increase the
18:44
2000, then I'll build the full ten pages.
18:47
So even, you know, you always have to kind of like match your
18:52
service to the price and if they ask for a discount, you know,
18:55
then also Remove could things that you're sort of offering to
18:58
them and that will make sure that, you know, your services
19:02
are still valued at the price that they kind of should be.
19:06
But it's very dangerous to start offering people discounts
19:09
because then they'll always expect that, whatever price, you
19:12
quote the moving forward is negotiable.
19:15
Yeah, I agree. And I think also this is kind of
19:18
an important lesson from a negotiation standpoint beer if
19:23
you're trying to get more money from You know, waiting through
19:27
wages or something like that or always punch higher.
19:31
Always go, way higher and work your way down.
19:33
Don't don't undersell. Yourself is so important not to
19:36
do that because I mean I think that's something that people
19:39
forget often. Yeah.
19:40
Like if you're on a freelance platform or yours, you selling a
19:43
service and you go lower than that, as you put it, you are
19:46
compromising and You'll put the price that you put out there is
19:51
what you think, your service and your time and your product is
19:55
worth. So it's just as much about what
20:00
you're selling as it is the reputation and the bit like the,
20:08
how people will look at what you're producing, you know, and
20:12
I mean there's also a night, another component to pricing.
20:15
So this is a trap that I really fell into freelancing at quite a
20:19
young age because I was sort of thinking, you know, if I build
20:24
someone a website and I charge 500 pounds for it, it might take
20:27
me 10 hours to do and that's 50 pounds an hour which You know,
20:30
time is like an incomprehensible amount of you.
20:33
No money. But then in reality, I'm
20:36
completely under selling my services and I was thinking
20:39
about it, completely the wrong way around.
20:41
You shouldn't think about it as in, like, what is that money
20:44
worth to me? You should think about it.
20:46
What is the value of your service Worth to them?
20:49
You know, because building them a website might mean that they
20:52
do they, you know, trouble their sales or whatever.
20:55
And they go from, I don't know, 500k in sales to 1.5 million in
20:59
sales and at Point. You know what percentage of that
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is the website now worth you know probably You could argue
21:06
10,000 pounds or more easily, right?
21:10
So the bet that's really the best way to think about it.
21:13
Don't think about it as an, you know, like how much do you need
21:15
power to get by think about what, what kind of increased
21:21
value are they getting from your services and price?
21:25
It according to that, take another good thing to think
21:27
about as well as like what the Your average is saying for the
21:31
service that you're charging for select.
21:33
What I think it's not necessarily like oh I should
21:37
just charge what everyone else is charging but you know, look
21:40
at look at your skill set. Look at, let's say you're a
21:44
computer programmer, okay. Well, how long have you been
21:46
doing that? Five, ten years.
21:47
Okay, you do front-end back-end click great.
21:50
You know, all of these different things are going to drive up.
21:55
The price that you could feasibly charge because your
21:57
expertise and your knowledge is obviously worth that much more.
22:02
And when you compare to what everyone else is doing in the
22:04
market you can call it the kind of see like okay well this
22:07
person has been in the industry for five years and they've
22:10
worked on these projects and this is how much they're
22:12
charging. I, maybe have seven years
22:14
experience, I've got bit more than them.
22:16
And I also know how to do this, this and this.
22:19
So I could probably charge this much more and it that's always
22:23
an important thing to think about as well.
22:24
Because if you undersell yourself, it's again, just
22:28
repeat this. And there's people in the market
22:31
who are charged in more, imagine how that kind of makes you seem.
22:36
It's like you not only our understanding yourself but you
22:39
don't sort of believe in your ability as much.
22:42
And I think that can sometimes send an inadvertent bad message
22:46
to the client because they're going to be like, or why are
22:48
they charge like, don't they understand have they not done
22:50
their research and It's like alarm Bells, start going off.
22:54
You like mmm, because you absolutely should do your
22:57
research. You know, like one thing the
23:00
Freelancers tend to do is raise their prices every year and
23:03
obviously that tends to kind of go with things like inflation
23:06
and just generally, like moving things up the cost of living
23:08
everything increases but I think it's also important because
23:12
they're looking at what the market is saying, go yet?
23:15
No, I need to charge more for this.
23:17
Hmm. They're like, yeah, when I do my
23:19
voice overs and my voice acting Sometimes I'll look at what the
23:24
project is saying. So if it's someone that doesn't
23:26
have a particularly big budget, I'll tend to ask what their
23:28
budget is and then measure that against the work that's being
23:32
produced. And sometimes I will actually
23:34
turn down a project. If it's, you know if they're
23:36
charging their say a really really small flat fee but they
23:40
want me to do a lot of work. It's like might not be sort of
23:44
workable for me, but then other times you know, sometimes it's
23:48
just about the project, it can be like well this is a project.
23:50
I really want to work on so You know, I'll take this, I'll do
23:54
this. I think particularly in your, in
23:57
your beginning stages, like I've been at things like voice acting
24:00
and acting for a number of years now, but I'm still very much in
24:03
the infancy stage so I'm still trying to build up my portfolio
24:07
and get somewhere. And I think, in that stage, it's
24:09
like to some extent. You should take on as many
24:12
projects as you can get. Just so you've got that under
24:14
your belt. So that when you get to say the
24:18
next year, in your freelance and journey, you can be like, okay,
24:21
well, Now, I can choose to be a bit more selective with this.
24:24
Now, I can kind of start thinking a bit more about what
24:28
I'm charging. What my time is, worth, etc,
24:31
etc. Yeah.
24:33
Lots of things to think about. Thank you for that.
24:36
You aim to revolutionize freelancing by putting
24:39
Freelancers first. How do you aim to achieve that?
24:45
Well, I mean, it comes through, you know, lots of different kind
24:48
of policy on the site. So not charging commission fees
24:51
allowing people Speak outside the platform from kind of a
24:55
brand ethos perspective were completely, you know, putting
24:58
Freelancers first. And it's important that a pretty
25:01
daunting platform does that because by really prioritizing
25:05
Freelancers and giving them everything they need to do their
25:09
best work. I mean, ultimately then we
25:12
create the best supply of Freelancers for clients.
25:15
So you know, by nurturing your supply, you offer the best
25:19
product of service to your demand side.
25:22
So it makes no sense to me, whatsoever.
25:25
How other large freelancing platforms, prioritize?
25:28
The demand side so much at the expense of Freelancers because
25:31
ultimately, they're just palming both sides but if you prioritize
25:35
the supply side, you can create a better service for your time
25:37
on site. And there is actually an example
25:39
of this whacking to which is a platform called right move that
25:42
you might have heard of. So they they completely
25:46
dominated their space by, not focusing on home buyers, but by
25:50
focusing on estate agents and that way.
25:52
Babe, I really pleasing estate agents.
25:54
They got the most high-quality listings and ultimately that's
25:56
most useful to a home buyer. So they were the bigger.
25:59
They became the biggest player in their space and we're doing
26:01
something very similar in the, in the freelancing space as
26:04
well. It's such a basic thing, isn't
26:07
it? Understanding your market?
26:08
And just like, I remember, I remember in business school when
26:11
I first started getting into business they would just Hammer
26:14
that point. There's like understand your
26:16
Market know your market and it's like you don't understand that,
26:21
you're just not going to go anywhere over.
26:23
You just going to constantly be button your head against the
26:25
wall going. I don't understand why it's not
26:26
working. I don't understand.
26:28
And it's like sometimes it's not even about like being the
26:30
cheapest platform will being you know having the most of
26:34
something sometimes it. It is just about being
26:37
accessible about you know making the right kind of Partnerships
26:42
and connections and then in that you get things like the best
26:45
listings for a particular industry that you're working in.
26:52
With regards to, you know, setting up Revel answer and
26:56
other businesses that you've set up over the years, what would
26:58
you say have been sort of the biggest challenges.
27:00
So I guess we're, we're coming up with this question is kind of
27:04
as an entrepreneur. What would you say the biggest
27:06
challenges for you over the years?
27:09
I mean it's been a quite a lot of different things but I think
27:15
the best piece of advice I can give in something.
27:17
I have followed for a long time and continue to follow is that
27:22
you need to surround yourself with people who are better than
27:26
you at certain things. So, you know, for example
27:32
fundraising rival on Sir with revlon's.
27:34
It's the first time that I raised a funds from from a VC,
27:37
you know, from Angel Investors. That kind of thing.
27:40
I had no idea what I was doing. So I spoke to people who had
27:44
previously fundraise for their startups, I spoke to Angel
27:47
Investors, not trying to get them to give me money, but just
27:50
trying to get them to give me feedback, you know, would this
27:53
be something get invested in or if, if not, why not, you know,
27:56
how can I improve this? And then through those
28:00
conversations, I put together a really good kind of pitch,
28:03
really, good narrative. And then when I went out to
28:05
fundraise, I managed to do so, you know, relatively easily.
28:10
Even though it's not something I ever did before, so I faced a
28:14
lot of challenges but the way that I always approach them is
28:16
by, you know, learning from the expertise and experiences of
28:20
other people who have faced challenges like that in the past
28:23
and overcame them. Speaking of getting advice and
28:27
feedback from people I found on your LinkedIn that you're
28:30
regularly advised by the just eat co-founder.
28:34
So I wanted to understand how this business relationship came
28:36
to be and what have been the main things you've learned from
28:39
it? Sure.
28:40
I mean it's actually a very funny story comes back from that
28:44
office that I hired and it's rented.
28:47
Sorry it's the one good thing that came out of that and why I
28:50
don't regret doing that at all. And basically I mentioned that
28:57
this office that I had was really good at attracting the
28:59
attention of the local newspaper and they did like a big spread
29:02
about me on the front page of their business, you know, it's
29:05
for a, like a tiny towns, local newspaper.
29:07
So it's nothing that impressive as so impressive, man.
29:10
Well, I bet, I mean, you know, some some people read it locally
29:13
and one of them was the Skype. So I got an e-mail at one point,
29:18
you know, from a guy called Matt.
29:19
Braddy. I had no idea who he was.
29:21
I, for whatever reason, didn't Google him either.
29:24
You just said he's You know, an entrepreneur in the local area,
29:28
and I'd like to meet up, you know, so I met up with him, I
29:32
invited him over to my office and within about 30 seconds of
29:36
chatting term, I realized like who he was and what experience
29:40
he had. He was the founding CMO of just
29:42
eat. And probably the reason why, you
29:43
know what just eat is so you know immediately I was like no
29:47
matter what I have to maintain this contact so I made sure I
29:50
got him on WhatsApp, kind of spoke with him on and off for He
29:55
was about three years before I started.
29:58
Revlon, so where I didn't have a project that I had like various
30:01
different projects, I now. And then asked his advice on and
30:04
just checked in every couple of months, but when it came to
30:07
actually starting Revlon. So I then reached out to me
30:09
because I maintain that connection and I asked him if he
30:13
wanted to be an adviser and he said, no, he is far too busy, he
30:17
can't but good luck. And then every two weeks from
30:22
that I would send them a list of updates.
30:24
So I'd say oh Now, I've spoken to these people, I've done this,
30:27
I worked out this, just send them a list of updates on what's
30:30
up every two weeks, he ignored me, he just read it and ignore
30:34
me every two weeks. Then then after about two months
30:37
of doing this, I sent him a message was just like, you know,
30:41
hey because I Was preparing for a start-up competition at the
30:44
time. It was like a week away or
30:46
something. I just said to him, you know,
30:48
hey, those competitions in one week?
30:49
Are you sure you don't want to call real quick?
30:51
Like have a look at my pitch. By the way.
30:52
Are you getting my messages and replaced me?
30:54
Sir. Yes, but I'm ignoring you and,
31:00
and yeah, and then base basically, I convinced him to
31:02
get on a call, show them what, what I was planning to do, and
31:06
then I managed to convince him to, to be an advisor for
31:08
revlon's, and he has been for the past two years since like,
31:11
right near the start. So, yeah, it's been incredible.
31:15
Working with him. He's a very direct guy.
31:18
He made my first ever board meeting a very memorable
31:21
experience and not the best way but Tell me you got out of hell
31:26
me? Why I might come on, come on.
31:28
He just absolutely to me to shreds in front of all of my,
31:32
you know, new investors shortly after a first funding round.
31:36
Oh no, yeah, well, look in a kind of like, oh, this is what
31:39
you need to work on. Next time, kid like sort of
31:42
thing or just how he was if you want.
31:44
I mean he was sort of looking at our updates and was just like
31:47
ripping holes and everything. I'm seeing a, why are you
31:49
prioritizing this? Why aren't you doing this, you
31:51
know, and just like really died direct kind of antagonistic.
31:55
It's his personality. He's a really great guy though,
31:58
but every single piece of advice, he's given me that I
32:00
followed has led to really great things happening for the
32:03
business. So, yeah, he's a wonderful
32:05
person to have around, awesome man and I well done for you.
32:11
Your consistency with that. You know it's a must not be easy
32:15
to kind of continually you get sort of get ignored.
32:18
And then finally, like, you know, you make something out of
32:21
them, it kind of weirdly reminds me of that scene in The
32:25
Shawshank Redemption, where what's the name?
32:29
Andy keeps sending out the letters and, you know, he's
32:32
doing it for a long, long, long time.
32:33
And he eventually get somewhere with it and he continues to do
32:35
it there after it's like there's something to be said for that
32:38
thing. You know it much like this this
32:41
shows. I'm doing now.
32:42
I mean, I've been doing this nearly three years and the
32:47
numbers are slowly getting there but I think the biggest thing
32:49
that's blown, my mind is just like all the different types of
32:53
guests. I'm getting on this show, you
32:54
know, I mean, people reaching out such as yourself who want to
32:56
be on the show and I'm just like, really taking that because
32:59
it's like for me, I just started this, you know, sometime during
33:03
2020 just because I wanted to do a podcast and I didn't really
33:07
have a particular vision for it. Now, I do now, the story I
33:10
suppose. For the show is to kind of share
33:12
other people's life lessons and stories Journeys and kind of
33:18
deliver something that is somewhat inspirational to people
33:22
motivational or even just funny and sometimes, you know,
33:26
whatever. But they took a while to kind of
33:29
realize that vision and that and that Dole.
33:32
I suppose. And something I'm always working
33:35
on and now it's like more fun than ever.
33:38
And it's funny to think about because, you know, sometimes you
33:41
do get bogged down with things, it can be frustrating.
33:43
It's not always where you want it to be, but then you have
33:46
these small successes and then it's like stages, isn't it?
33:50
Everything comes down to that and business is completely like
33:52
that. You got stage 1 stage till
33:54
quarter. One quarter to quarter, three
33:55
quarter for and then before you know, it, you're you're at the
33:58
top and you're my oh, wow. Like I remember when this was
34:02
Going nowhere, what changed? And it's like a lot change you
34:04
changed and your approach and your mentality in your approach
34:09
attitude everything that's really what changed and that's
34:12
what makes the success. I think.
34:14
Yeah, completely agree. What advice could you give to
34:19
aspiring entrepreneurs? Just in general and I know
34:22
you've given a little bit throughout the show but like
34:24
let's say, someone who's just such as yourself.
34:27
You start at a young age? Yeah, let's start there,
34:30
actually, for any sort of young budding.
34:32
Entrepreneurs, what would your advice be?
34:35
Don't be afraid to fail and just be very persistent.
34:38
I mean, most of her everything that I've tried has failed.
34:42
I have experience in a lot of different fields as a result of
34:46
that, though. You know, I've tried everything
34:49
I've tried selling on eBay left for you know, flipping things
34:53
I've tried Drop Shipping, I've tried setting up Marketplace
34:57
businesses. I've tried setting up, you know,
34:59
agencies freelancing, everything, all kinds of
35:01
different things and app, you know, so like Even though most
35:06
of these things that I just mentioned to you failed, I now
35:09
have a basic underlying understanding of how they work
35:12
and also more importantly, what went wrong on my site.
35:17
So, if I wanted to try any of these things, again, I would
35:19
have an advantage where I probably be able to get it to a
35:22
success Foster because I because I failed, and I think that's a
35:27
that's of the best way to think about failing.
35:29
It's a learning experience and so don't be afraid to fail,
35:34
especially if you're young you Have much less to lose.
35:36
So just really go for a try as many things as possible, and
35:40
you'll learn so much from that. That eventually, you'll, you'll
35:44
be able to be successful and you'll be, you'll be able to
35:47
replicate it because it won't be luck.
35:48
It'll be from all of your hard work and all of your learnings
35:51
from things that didn't work out in the past, let's explore that
35:54
a little bit, the concept of failure.
35:56
One thing I always like to do when I have my business guest
36:00
on, it's not just sit and just ask like, oh, how did you
36:03
achieve the success that I like to get?
36:05
Down to the root of the person because I feel like that is
36:08
always kind of the most important factor because it's
36:12
all the qualities of that person that helped them get to where
36:16
they eventually got to. So speaking to failure in those
36:21
moments, when you failed particularly in the moments,
36:23
when you put a lot into it and then it didn't work out and you
36:26
were you had to kind of pick yourself back up again.
36:30
What kept you going? What was, what was the thing
36:33
that kind of kept pushing you forward?
36:35
And made you kind of overcome failure.
36:41
I think it's just that this was a really what I wanted to do.
36:45
You know, I really wanted to and I mean it's one because it's
36:49
really what I wanted to do and to just because I enjoyed the
36:52
Journey of it. Even if things didn't go great,
36:55
I still enjoyed just luck trying lots of different things and
36:58
learning from them. So I think yeah, it's a
37:02
combination of that. It's that I really wanted to
37:04
achieve the goal down the line and a very strong desire to do
37:07
that. But also that I really just
37:09
enjoyed the journey and The day-to-day of things.
37:12
But in that, you know, with that being said, I there were times
37:17
where I was a very close to thinking, you know, things just
37:19
keep going wrong. Now, it's time to, you know,
37:21
just stop with this and find something else.
37:25
So, if I could go back in time though, this is what I would say
37:28
to myself, you know, like, don't be afraid of failing, you know,
37:31
like all of this actually builds up to being able to do something
37:36
really amazing at a young age because, you know, if failed the
37:39
most of everything I did over the past 10 years, Means not 23.
37:42
I've got a venture back business and been able to achieve a
37:45
number of nice things but most of everything I've tried again
37:48
has failed but it led up to this.
37:51
So that's what I wish I could go back and tell myself and I think
37:54
it's important for anyone at any point in their Journey but
37:57
especially at the beginning. It's very important to
37:59
understand that. Brilliant.
38:02
Got a couple of questions for you about the future.
38:05
So let's start with freelancer, then we'll get back to you.
38:09
So what do you think is the future a freelancing as it
38:15
stands right now? Well, I think that this is a
38:19
booming kind of Market, I mean today it like right now in might
38:23
surprise you that about a third of the global Workforce of
38:26
Freelancers, 1.56 billion people.
38:30
Okay? Also, Bye-bye, according to
38:32
McKinsey, and Company according to their projection, by 2027
38:36
more than half of the u.s. work force, will be Freelancers.
38:40
So, it's a space, that's growing very fast.
38:44
I think it's appealing to a lot of people think their current, I
38:47
think, you know, they're kind of after effective covid.
38:49
You know, impending economic kind of Crisis is all fueling
38:56
this as well. So I think that moving forward,
38:59
we're going to have a much more kind of freelance.
39:01
Spaced flexible way of working for a huge amount of the
39:04
workforce than we even do. Currently.
39:08
What do you think are the implications of that for for
39:12
companies? You know, how do you think that
39:16
traditional companies that are offering say the 925?
39:19
Which, by the way I know we've been quite critical of the nine
39:22
to five but like I think there are a lot of positives to be to
39:26
be argued for 9 to 5. So I think it's it always
39:31
generally comes down to the type of person you are and what your
39:33
goals are and what you want, you know.
39:34
It's but one thing I will say about both freelancing.
39:38
The and 925 is this, there is this illusion of job security,
39:45
there is no such thing as job security.
39:47
You sometimes you get lucky and you maybe you've you have good
39:50
business working relationships with people.
39:52
But yeah, I've seen it time and time again.
39:54
I'm sure you've seen it as well. People can work for companies
39:57
for years and years and suddenly you're gone.
40:01
We've seen it most recently with Google some people have been
40:04
left, let go after 16 years. Yeah, basically set Up the
40:08
company and now they're gone. And it's the harsh reality of
40:12
business. But I think it teaches us a
40:15
valuable lesson, it's not necessarily a negative thing.
40:17
I actually think it's a positive thing if you learn that.
40:20
There is no job security. Therefore, you should be taking
40:23
more risks and putting yourself out there and trying to kind of
40:28
sell yourself more. Like, I think that's something
40:30
that's really good about the freelancer mindset, is it
40:32
teaches you how to look at yourself from the perspective
40:36
of? Okay, these are The different
40:38
things I can offer, you know, I shouldn't understand myself, I
40:41
should kind of throw myself out there.
40:43
I should be bold. I should go for things.
40:45
That maybe I think I'm not good enough for because chances are,
40:48
you are good enough. You just need to believe in
40:50
yourself and, and then a lot of and then the rest of it, just
40:53
comes down to, like simple marketing and just sales really
40:57
isn't, it's just like, knowing how to was it.
41:00
Paul Heyman says, in the wrestling industry, accentuate,
41:03
the positives and hide the weaknesses or if you need some,
41:07
but the weakest Says then work on them and try and get better.
41:11
Yeah, I mean I'm and ultimately, you're just more in control
41:14
because a lot of these Google employees were the way they
41:17
found out. They lost their jobs, they just
41:18
couldn't log into their system, you know, I'm some of them why
41:21
we're currently on work trips meeting clients and stuff like
41:24
that, so you just have more control.
41:26
So even if you know, like, you know, if you're going to have
41:29
enough client work, you know what you can do to increase it,
41:32
so you're just in control more. And I think there's a That's
41:37
quite appealing and I'm stealing this quote, I can't remember who
41:41
said it. But there's a great quote, where
41:47
I'm just trying to think who said, I really want to steal the
41:51
steal the quote. But yeah.
41:53
It's basically, if you, you know, not taking any risks, as
41:57
the biggest risk you'll ever take, and I think it's a very
42:02
important thing to realize like choosing choosing not to do
42:05
something. Isn't itself a choice.
42:07
So, like she choosing not to try with something is a choice in
42:10
and of itself and your kind of guaranteeing, you know, if
42:13
you're scared that, if you try something that you'll fail, not
42:16
try and guarantees that you'll fail at, you know, achieving
42:20
that thing. So, yeah, I'll add to this as
42:22
well because I'm trying to become an actor and voice actor
42:26
and, you know, that's a very tough industry to make it in a
42:29
very aware of that. I know the studs are stacked
42:31
against me, but one thing I will say speaking to risk, and Dying.
42:36
Is that a I've tried to be successful and I've tried to
42:43
kind of do things like the standard 925 and marketing.
42:47
I've tried to do customer service and all those things.
42:49
I worked hard and I made the best of them, but it just wasn't
42:53
for me. I knew in my heart, it wasn't
42:55
for me and that I needed to take a risk on myself, and try these
42:58
other things, because that's what would make me happy in
43:00
life. But one thing that I've realized
43:04
about fear in the concept of taking, I'm risks is a lot of it
43:07
time it comes down to just people's concern about money.
43:10
You know, it's like, oh, how will I make money?
43:13
How will I fought to pay the bills?
43:14
And it's like, you will find a way like there are so many ways
43:18
to make money now and sometimes it, you know.
43:20
Yeah, you have to take a sucky job here and there to do it and
43:23
but that's fine. You know, it's in this book.
43:25
I started reading as finish it the other day.
43:27
It's called and the neyman. The golden rules of acting.
43:32
They described the period between acting jobs as your In
43:36
period. And I love that idea.
43:39
I think that's true in freelance into it's like, you know, you
43:42
might not always have loads of ongoing work, but that doesn't
43:45
mean that you're a failure. If anything, it just gives you
43:48
time to re-evaluate what you're doing, tweak things, whether
43:51
that's I don't know. Your CV or portfolio, maybe even
43:55
take it up a course or something.
43:57
Pitching ideas to clients, reaching out to connections of
44:02
yours. You know, there's always
44:03
something you can be doing and if you're not getting work, It's
44:06
okay. You will find work in some shape
44:10
or form and you will get to where you want to get to.
44:13
It just might take some time and some patience.
44:16
Yeah, absolutely. A couple of quick fire questions
44:20
for you completely unrelated to our conversation today, this is
44:22
just about you Carl in your life.
44:26
What's the best advice you've ever received?
44:31
I mean I'm going to sound very boring but it really is this old
44:34
idea of just being very persistent and you know just
44:38
jumping in the into the deep end with everything that I try.
44:43
Brilliant. And what's the biggest life
44:47
lesson you've learned so far? Hmm, that's a good question.
44:55
Biggest life lesson, I think probably that if you help enough
45:01
other people get what they want, you'll get what you want.
45:05
I think that's a it's a good philosophy.
45:07
I think it's true as well. I think there are many you know
45:12
many very, very successful business.
45:14
People who people can play in people complain about
45:17
billionaires with good. In in a lot of ways as well.
45:22
But ultimately, you know, there's a good chance that that
45:24
very successful person got there by helping a huge amount of
45:27
people solve their problem or helping other.
45:30
You know, smaller group of people solve a very big problem
45:32
that they're willing to pay a lot of money to sort of have the
45:34
solution for. So they are creating a lot of
45:38
value and I think it's just a it's a good philosophy in
45:40
general to actively try and help other people and then
45:43
ultimately, you know, Circle back to you as well.
45:46
Now, I agree. And also I think it's just good
45:48
to constantly be trying. Trying to work with other
45:50
people. I mean, that's part of the
45:52
reason why I do podcasting other than just loving doing this, I'm
45:56
also trying to meet people and grow and and get somewhere and,
46:00
you know, learn things. And one thing I reading this
46:03
again in this act in this is a brilliant, but you guys should
46:06
really get this even if you're not an actor, it's just a good
46:09
book in terms of Life advice, but one of the things it speaks
46:13
to is this idea that, you know, you got to kind of look at
46:20
everything that you're doing, and Break it down and kind of
46:26
consider. What it is that you're looking
46:30
for in life? And What you can change and
46:37
where you can kind of move forward and put yourself in a
46:41
better place where you can get those things and there are
46:44
various different things that you can do to change that.
46:47
But ultimately it comes down to you and how you kind of budget
46:53
self in a different direction in order to get that and it always
46:56
comes down to you. It does but it's like your
46:59
attitude your approach. And and kind of re-evaluating
47:04
now times. And I think in this show today
47:06
we've explored that quite quite a lot.
47:09
You know this idea of like looking at you and how you can
47:14
tweak things and change things in order to get where you want
47:17
to. But a lot of it comes down to
47:18
the basics of Being Human really isn't.
47:23
It's a lot of the time. It is things like you keep
47:26
going. You keep, believing you, keep
47:28
trying, you pick yourself up, you you know, it won't always
47:31
work out. I forgot my point before but
47:33
I've come back Circle. One of the things that I'd like
47:38
to do is connect with different people and by doing that, I
47:44
learn so much and I'm then able to use that in other fields.
47:49
And I think one of the things I discovered through podcasting is
47:53
that I was able to have a conversation with someone and go
47:56
back and forth and there's so many little things that you
47:58
learn through that. Sometimes it's your you know,
48:03
it's your time to lead and to guide the conversation and speak
48:05
more sometimes you take a seat and you and you listen more and
48:09
it's good like knowing when to listen, when to talk and also,
48:15
just kind of Always putting yourself out there.
48:20
Always try and different things. Even if it might not necessarily
48:24
sound like it's going to work, just try it.
48:26
How do you know, how do you know until you tried?
48:30
Absolutely. As we draw things to a close for
48:33
today, do you have any upcoming projects or final thoughts that
48:36
you'd like to share with our listeners?
48:39
I mean, we're building an interesting platform at the
48:42
moment, to help free longs to stop their journey by exchanging
48:45
skills. So, you know where you can kind
48:49
of deliver work to other people, build your portfolio with real
48:55
client work and an exchange that for help with your brand.
48:57
So Consulting with a more Freelancer of getting a website
49:00
built getting some marketing done for you that that kind of
49:03
thing. And really helping the community
49:04
what we've found is that this already very frequently happens
49:08
and at the people who do it really, enjoy doing it.
49:10
So 9 out of 10 people who have exchanged skills before would do
49:13
it again from from our research. So, that's a very exciting
49:16
project and, you know, hopefully just another step in permanently
49:21
improving the freelancing space. I wish you the best of luck.
49:25
I think what you're doing with this company is brilliant, and
49:30
it was always one of the, when your team reached out to me like
49:33
I was already interested anyway, because I love having business
49:35
guests on, it's always fun. It gave forces me to kind of
49:40
draw my experience but also kind of approach it with a blank
49:44
canvas and just learn something new from someone and whenever
49:49
it's something directly related to something I've done before,
49:52
it's always particularly interesting for me because
49:54
Because, you know, there's always something new, you can
49:57
learn. Like I take the marketing sphere
49:59
as an example. Every company I've ever worked
50:02
for has a completely different approach to marketing.
50:05
Sometimes you use like the same platform, whatever platforms
50:10
software but it's always different and that always comes
50:13
down to the people that you you know, you're working with.
50:16
And it just yeah always blows my mind and it's always keeps it
50:20
fresh and interesting for sure. But thank you so much for
50:23
appearing on the It's been an absolute pleasure and hope to
50:26
see you again in the future. Absolutely.
50:29
Thanks very much for having me and to the listeners of the
50:32
Christian we podcast, as always be safe.
50:35
Be well, and I'll see you in the next one.