Latest / Q & A, Hosted by Jay Nordlinger / A Heartening Throwback

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A Heartening Throwback · Q & A, Hosted by Jay Nordlinger

0:00
SPEAKER_00: Hello, everyone, and welcome to Q&A.
0:02
SPEAKER_00: I'm Jay Nordlinger,
0:04
SPEAKER_00: and our guest today is a college student,
0:06
SPEAKER_00: a senior at Stanford,
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SPEAKER_00: and a journalist already,
0:10
SPEAKER_00: believe it or not.
0:11
SPEAKER_00: We have known each other for some time.
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SPEAKER_00: He is John R. Puri, more formally John Raj Puri.
0:20
SPEAKER_00: How about that?
0:21
SPEAKER_00: His name looks to me like Puri,
0:23
SPEAKER_00: the puffed-up Indian bread,
0:26
SPEAKER_00: though there's nothing puffed-up about John Puri.
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SPEAKER_00: Well, hello, John Puri.
0:32
SPEAKER_00: How are you?
0:33
SPEAKER_02: Hello, Jay.
0:34
SPEAKER_02: I'm doing very well, and it's so nice to be here with you.
0:37
SPEAKER_00: So tell me about John Raj Puri.
0:40
That's a wonderful moniker,
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and it'll be a very distinctive byline,
0:45
I think,
0:46
for years to come.
0:47
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
0:48
SPEAKER_02: No, thank you.
0:49
SPEAKER_02: Well,
0:49
SPEAKER_02: of course,
0:49
SPEAKER_02: yeah,
0:49
SPEAKER_02: I usually shorten it to John R.
0:51
SPEAKER_02: Peary,
0:53
SPEAKER_02: but I'm not unproud of the Raj at all.
0:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
0:57
SPEAKER_00: I might go with the Raj if I were not telling you how to style yourself,
1:00
SPEAKER_00: but the Raj is so cool.
1:02
SPEAKER_00: Tell me.
1:03
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
1:03
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
1:04
SPEAKER_02: So the name is Indian,
1:05
SPEAKER_02: as it sounds,
1:06
SPEAKER_02: which doesn't make much sense when people meet me because,
1:08
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:09
SPEAKER_02: I'm very white when you look at me.
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SPEAKER_02: But I am, in fact, a quarter Indian, Indian American.
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SPEAKER_02: My grandfather came here as an immigrant in the 1960s.
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SPEAKER_02: His name was Tilak Rajpuri.
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SPEAKER_02: He had his son, Dev Rajpuri, who then had me.
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SPEAKER_02: And of course,
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the reason I don't look Indian in my complexion is that my
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grandfather married a
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SPEAKER_02: very Jewish Eastern European woman.
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SPEAKER_02: And yes, and my dad was already very Caucasian by the looks of it.
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SPEAKER_02: But then he married just a classic Midwestern girl in my mother.
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SPEAKER_02: So I kept the name,
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but my name is much more Indian than I am and much more Indian
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than I look,
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SPEAKER_02: certainly.
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SPEAKER_00: Gotcha.
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SPEAKER_00: So you're a classic American.
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SPEAKER_00: You're like me.
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SPEAKER_00: You're a mongrel, so to speak, in the best sense.
2:01
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
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SPEAKER_02: Classic American mother.
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SPEAKER_00: Wonderful.
2:04
SPEAKER_00: And where did you grow up?
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SPEAKER_02: I grew up in Iowa.
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SPEAKER_02: My mother grew up in Des Moines.
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SPEAKER_02: She then went around the country,
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SPEAKER_02: worked in different places,
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SPEAKER_02: but then came back to Des Moines,
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SPEAKER_02: Iowa once she had me and my brother.
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SPEAKER_02: So I was born in Manhattan, actually.
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SPEAKER_02: Manhattan, New York or Manhattan, Kansas?
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SPEAKER_02: Manhattan, New York, Upper East Side.
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SPEAKER_02: So that's a small part of my heritage.
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SPEAKER_02: So you have birth citizenship, so to speak, here in New York.
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SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
2:34
SPEAKER_02: I think I could make it with some adjustments.
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SPEAKER_02: But I went to the same public school in Des Moines as my mother did.
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I lived just a few minutes away from where she grew up and a
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few minutes away from
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SPEAKER_02: her mother's house.
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SPEAKER_02: So I'm very, very proud of my Iowan roots.
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When I tell people I'm from Iowa and they don't mistake it for
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Idaho or Ohio
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SPEAKER_02: because that's usually the first reaction.
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But they assume I'm from a very rural area,
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farmland and cows and pigs and corn and the rest.
3:01
SPEAKER_02: That is a lot of what's in Iowa.
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SPEAKER_02: But for me, it was about 10 miles in any direction if you drove.
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SPEAKER_02: But I grew up in a pretty standard suburban urban area,
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SPEAKER_02: a house with a front yard,
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SPEAKER_02: but still to a Des Moines public school with a Des Moines zip code.
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SPEAKER_00: You're sort of in the heart of the Iowa caucuses.
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SPEAKER_02: I am.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
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SPEAKER_02: And those are actually some of my first political memories.
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SPEAKER_02: I remember when I was 16 years old, it was the 2020 primary.
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So there wasn't much of a primary on the Republican side as
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Trump was just renominated.
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SPEAKER_02: But on the Democratic side, it was a free for all.
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SPEAKER_02: And,
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SPEAKER_02: of course,
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when you have Democrats looking for the caucuses and the first
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state in the list is
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SPEAKER_02: Iowa,
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SPEAKER_02: you're going to go to where all the Democratic voters are,
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SPEAKER_02: and that is my city of Des Moines.
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SPEAKER_02: It's a blue spot in a sea of red.
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John,
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have you ever seen The Music Man,
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which is a classic American musical about Iowa?
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SPEAKER_00: You'll love it.
3:59
SPEAKER_02: I know.
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SPEAKER_02: I need to watch it.
4:02
My brother,
4:03
he is studying fine arts drama at Drake University,
4:08
also in Des Moines.
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SPEAKER_02: And so I'm going to have to ask him to show it to me.
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SPEAKER_02: And for him to give me all the clues.
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SPEAKER_02: Well,
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SPEAKER_00: yeah,
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SPEAKER_00: it's set in what the creator,
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SPEAKER_00: Meredith Wilson,
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SPEAKER_00: calls River City,
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SPEAKER_00: which is Mason City,
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SPEAKER_00: Iowa.
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SPEAKER_00: By the way, young man, what does Des Moines mean?
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SPEAKER_02: You know, I never really figured that out.
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SPEAKER_02: I think it's...
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SPEAKER_02: I'm pretty sure it's French, right?
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SPEAKER_02: So Iowa is a Native American term.
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SPEAKER_02: Des Moines is a French term.
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It might have been monks,
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but as my grandmother would say,
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we were absent that day.
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SPEAKER_00: Right, exactly.
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SPEAKER_00: We can always Google.
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SPEAKER_00: I want to know –
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SPEAKER_00: What drew you to politics or to the whole world of public affairs?
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SPEAKER_00: I mean,
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SPEAKER_00: when I was young,
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SPEAKER_00: very young,
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SPEAKER_00: I liked reading the newspaper a lot,
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SPEAKER_00: maybe first the sports pages,
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but I'd read the newspaper with my grandfather and that was
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sheer heaven to me.
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SPEAKER_00: We'd do the crossword puzzle, et cetera.
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SPEAKER_00: What drew your interest?
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SPEAKER_02: It's interesting because I didn't really get it from family.
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Neither of my parents were politically that involved or cared
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too much about it.
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SPEAKER_02: But I always had these strange fascinations as a kid.
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SPEAKER_02: One of the first things I learned when I came across a subject,
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SPEAKER_02: and I mean a young kid,
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SPEAKER_02: four,
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SPEAKER_02: five,
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SPEAKER_02: six years old,
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SPEAKER_02: I would have to conquer it.
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And one of the first things I learned was all of the names of
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the states and their
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SPEAKER_02: capitals,
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SPEAKER_02: and then I'd learn the fun facts about them.
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and by the time i got to fourth grade i had hopped a few more
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subjects and i
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learned all the names of the presidents in order the full names
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first middle and
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last uh you know what they did uh you know some interesting
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facts like you know
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president taft getting stuck in the bathtub um and uh this
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became kind of one of my
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one of my domains and so when i was eight years old uh my
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brother and my parents
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SPEAKER_02: dressed up as batman characters and i dressed up as richard nixon because
6:04
SPEAKER_02: So I always was sort of odd,
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SPEAKER_02: and I had these weird,
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SPEAKER_02: strange interests,
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SPEAKER_02: including in public affairs.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, join the club, baby.
6:10
SPEAKER_02: Right.
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SPEAKER_02: But then it was really around.
6:12
SPEAKER_00: Hang on.
6:12
SPEAKER_00: Hang on.
6:13
SPEAKER_00: What was Nixon's middle name?
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SPEAKER_02: Richard Milhouse Nixon.
6:16
SPEAKER_02: There you go.
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SPEAKER_00: Where was he from?
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SPEAKER_02: California.
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SPEAKER_00: You have to do better than that, young man.
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SPEAKER_02: Oh, really?
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SPEAKER_02: He was – oh, gosh.
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SPEAKER_00: Was he from – I'm just playing with you.
6:27
SPEAKER_00: Go ahead.
6:28
SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah, maybe I've lost a little bit since I was in fourth grade.
6:31
Well,
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he went to Whittier College,
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but he was from Yorba,
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Linda,
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and Whittier.
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SPEAKER_02: Okay.
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SPEAKER_02: See, I have lost something.
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SPEAKER_02: Keep going.
6:38
SPEAKER_02: Well,
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SPEAKER_02: it wasn't until high school when I actually joined the debate team,
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SPEAKER_02: and they were all very involved in politics and interested.
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SPEAKER_02: And they would ask me political questions, and I would say, I don't know.
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SPEAKER_02: I don't know what I think about that.
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And that was very uncomfortable because I was always an
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opinionated guy on things I
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SPEAKER_02: knew stuff about.
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SPEAKER_02: So I said, I have to learn.
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SPEAKER_02: And when I learned,
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that's when I started applying what I would call familial
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values and beliefs that
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SPEAKER_02: have been passed down to me onto the information I was getting.
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SPEAKER_02: And I became very opinionated very quickly.
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SPEAKER_02: And that served me well in debate.
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But fundamentally,
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I've always liked politics because,
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you know,
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sort of like debate.
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SPEAKER_02: It's a group project where you don't have to all be on the same page.
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SPEAKER_02: You don't have to agree.
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SPEAKER_02: In fact, it's imperative that you're not on the same page.
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SPEAKER_02: The disagreement and the discord is the point.
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SPEAKER_02: I was never one for, you know, I didn't like group projects as a kid.
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I didn't like joining things and having to be just part of the
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collective.
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SPEAKER_02: I like that politics was something that we could do together,
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SPEAKER_02: but at odds with one another,
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SPEAKER_02: but still remain peaceful.
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SPEAKER_00: Well, you were a true Democrat then with a small d. Yes, definitely.
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SPEAKER_00: John,
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SPEAKER_00: for reasons I could get into,
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I met a few days ago a man who was among our 52 hostages in
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Iran for the 444 days
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SPEAKER_00: from November 1979 to January 1981.
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SPEAKER_00: Barry Rosen.
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SPEAKER_00: It was a thrill to meet him.
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SPEAKER_00: And as I reflected on it, the Iranian hostage crisis,
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SPEAKER_00: I guess we call it the Iran hostage crisis,
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SPEAKER_00: was one of the first world events I was really engaged with.
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SPEAKER_00: So November 1979,
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SPEAKER_00: I guess I was in,
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I think I was in ninth grade and everything was just vivid to
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me and very dramatic.
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SPEAKER_00: And that whole ordeal left an impression on me.
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SPEAKER_00: I think it was part of my interest in world affairs.
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SPEAKER_00: So that was in 1979.
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SPEAKER_02: A little before my time.
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SPEAKER_00: I apologize.
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SPEAKER_00: You have the equivalent.
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I was saying the other day to someone,
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I remember hearing my parents talk about Watergate.
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SPEAKER_00: I thought it had something to do with water.
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The Carter presence,
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and I remember Ford,
9:00
especially the two assassination attempts,
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frankly.
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SPEAKER_00: But I was really sort of locked into the world during the Carter years.
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SPEAKER_00: What are your equivalents?
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SPEAKER_02: Well,
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I guess I guess the first the back the original presidential
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backdrop of my very
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SPEAKER_02: early political memory was the first Trump administration,
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SPEAKER_02: but I didn't really know much about it.
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SPEAKER_02: And I wasn't following it for the first years.
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SPEAKER_02: I was 12 when he was elected.
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I remember going to my choir church group and and and they were
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talking about the election.
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SPEAKER_02: I said, who won?
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SPEAKER_02: I had no idea.
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SPEAKER_02: And they had to fill me in.
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SPEAKER_02: But but then I think I became more more aware leading up,
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SPEAKER_02: you know,
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SPEAKER_02: through 2018,
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SPEAKER_02: 2019,
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SPEAKER_02: I would get new stories and and maybe have something to think about.
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SPEAKER_02: But I wasn't really involved.
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SPEAKER_02: It was.
9:48
Then then the pandemic arrived in 2020 and that sort of pulled
9:54
me out of everything.
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SPEAKER_02: We you know, everyone was shut down.
9:56
We were isolated and there wasn't much to do but to take your
10:01
classes online,
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SPEAKER_02: which which didn't take as much time as doing them in person.
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SPEAKER_02: And then for me,
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SPEAKER_02: it was reading about,
10:06
SPEAKER_02: you know,
10:07
it was watching political videos and reading stories and
10:10
reading even papers.
10:12
That's that's almost gave me the opportunity to become more
10:15
politically informed.
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And it was also around that time and a little bit earlier of
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the primaries.
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SPEAKER_02: And my mother has been a longtime Democrat.
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SPEAKER_02: She was very engaged in the primaries, especially in Des Moines.
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SPEAKER_02: And so we would go around and meet the different candidates.
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SPEAKER_02: It's amazing how up close you can get with them.
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SPEAKER_00: I went to New Hampshireites.
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SPEAKER_00: By the way, stick this in your political repertoire.
10:39
SPEAKER_00: I learned it when I was very young.
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SPEAKER_00: The old line goes that a reporter asks a New Hampshire voter,
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SPEAKER_00: so what do you think of candidate X,
10:46
SPEAKER_00: let's say.
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SPEAKER_00: He said, I've only met him three times.
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SPEAKER_00: I'm really not sure yet.
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SPEAKER_02: Right, exactly.
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SPEAKER_02: And you don't get you don't get much from them,
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SPEAKER_02: but you get you get these amazing little glimpses that you remember.
10:55
So I had about a two minute conversation with Kamala Harris,
10:59
who had become the vice president.
11:01
I watched Joe Biden throw a football to one of my friends after
11:05
one of his rallies.
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SPEAKER_02: I met you know,
11:08
I took photos with a number of the other candidates who history
11:12
hasn't treated
11:13
SPEAKER_02: quite as kindly or who have not been quite as successful since then.
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SPEAKER_02: But but that that was definitely
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SPEAKER_02: political engagement early in my life.
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SPEAKER_02: And then I remember very vividly January 6 after the 2020 election.
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SPEAKER_02: That was one of the one of the instances as well as the the the riots.
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And I remember the incident of George Floyd's murder in itself
11:41
and then the riots
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SPEAKER_02: and the protests afterwards.
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SPEAKER_02: were very vivid to me as well.
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SPEAKER_02: And those two events,
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SPEAKER_02: that and January 6,
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SPEAKER_02: made me angry about politics in a way that I hadn't been previously.
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SPEAKER_02: And then
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SPEAKER_02: Probably the most vivid memory I have about world events,
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SPEAKER_02: as you mentioned,
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SPEAKER_02: you talked about Iran,
12:01
SPEAKER_02: was about 10 p.m.
12:03
in February of 2022 when I saw the first reports of the
12:07
missiles falling in Ukraine.
12:09
SPEAKER_02: And this is a moment where as someone who grew up and,
12:12
SPEAKER_02: you know,
12:13
SPEAKER_02: the Iraq War was before my time.
12:15
SPEAKER_02: You know, it was it was history by the time I learned about it.
12:18
SPEAKER_02: The war in Afghanistan,
12:19
SPEAKER_02: of course,
12:19
SPEAKER_02: was ongoing,
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SPEAKER_02: but not nearly what it was at the outset of the war.
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SPEAKER_02: But war was not really something I was familiar with in an active sense.
12:28
SPEAKER_02: And that was – that seemed to me to be almost a world-shattering event.
12:34
SPEAKER_02: You took a bunch of assumptions that Europe was secure,
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SPEAKER_02: that war like this could not happen anymore.
12:41
And it just felt like someone had dropped them and they had
12:43
shattered all over the floor.
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SPEAKER_00: It's back to the 1930s, the erasure of international borders.
12:48
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
12:49
SPEAKER_00: So lightening up a bit here, John, even literally.
12:55
So it's an I look outside on the East Coast and it's dark and
12:59
out your window.
13:01
SPEAKER_00: Is that Stanford?
13:02
SPEAKER_00: Is that Stanford University?
13:04
SPEAKER_02: You know, it's not.
13:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
13:07
SPEAKER_02: I am in Palo Alto.
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SPEAKER_02: So this is my senior year at Stanford.
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SPEAKER_02: And it is the first year that I've lived off campus.
13:15
SPEAKER_02: It's pretty impressive how Palo Alto's rental market,
13:19
SPEAKER_02: the low end,
13:20
has just now kind of converged with the high end of Stanford
13:24
housing prices.
13:27
But the tech market's cooling off a bit and the university
13:31
needs more money.
13:32
SPEAKER_02: And those two things are bringing the prices closer together.
13:35
SPEAKER_00: Well, John, you are right of center politically.
13:40
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
13:41
SPEAKER_00: I am right of center.
13:42
SPEAKER_00: I went to college in the 1980s, first half of the 1980s mainly.
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SPEAKER_00: I want to know, are you, let's call them, are you conservative students?
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SPEAKER_00: Are you well integrated at Stanford or are you outsiders?
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SPEAKER_00: Do you feel in any sense a pariah?
14:06
SPEAKER_00: Or are you accepted as,
14:08
SPEAKER_00: so to speak,
14:08
SPEAKER_00: this little bit mushy and gooey,
14:10
SPEAKER_00: a part of a family of Stanford students?
14:14
SPEAKER_02: Sure.
14:14
SPEAKER_02: Well,
14:14
SPEAKER_02: of course,
14:15
SPEAKER_02: as you and I both know,
14:15
SPEAKER_02: the word conservative is sort of a it's sort of a mess at the moment.
14:20
SPEAKER_02: You know, no one's quite sure what it means.
14:21
SPEAKER_02: And people have very different meanings.
14:23
SPEAKER_02: But if you're talking about right of center students generally,
14:26
I will say Stanford seems to be and has been for the last four
14:30
years much better
14:30
than what you might find at the Ivy Leagues over on the East
14:33
Coast in that.
14:35
And we're kind of marked as a university by – it's not a kind
14:41
word,
14:41
but our apathy.
14:42
SPEAKER_02: We're not as engaged with politics.
14:44
SPEAKER_02: We're not as devoted to our political pursuits.
14:47
SPEAKER_00: I love that, John.
14:48
SPEAKER_00: Let me interject and tell you something.
14:51
SPEAKER_00: So there was a phrase.
14:52
SPEAKER_00: There was a very common phrase in the 1960s.
14:54
SPEAKER_00: that campuses were hotbeds of social unrest.
14:58
SPEAKER_00: There's a very common phrase, hotbeds of social unrest.
15:03
SPEAKER_00: And I remember the early 1980s when I was in college,
15:06
SPEAKER_00: Abby Hoffman,
15:07
SPEAKER_00: the great 1960s leftist activist complained,
15:11
SPEAKER_00: That college campuses were hotbeds of social rest.
15:15
SPEAKER_00: I think that's wonderful.
15:16
I think at college people ought to learn things instead of
15:19
engaging in politics.
15:20
SPEAKER_00: But anyway, keep going.
15:21
SPEAKER_02: Right.
15:22
SPEAKER_02: So I will say – so we're mostly interested in our professional pursuits.
15:26
SPEAKER_02: A lot of people here want to go into technology.
15:28
SPEAKER_02: People want to go into finance.
15:30
Politics may be an interesting discussion once in a while,
15:33
but it's not why you're here.
15:35
SPEAKER_02: You're not here to fight with your fellow students.
15:36
SPEAKER_02: And therefore, we are more amiable with one another, I'd say.
15:42
SPEAKER_02: There are certain pockets of the university,
15:43
SPEAKER_02: of course,
15:44
the more political groups and certain majors and certain
15:48
departments where it can
15:49
SPEAKER_02: be much more hostile.
15:51
But I can say as someone who studied political science as my
15:54
major and history as
15:55
SPEAKER_02: my minor and taken a few classes in other departments,
15:58
SPEAKER_02: I've never felt discriminated against.
16:00
SPEAKER_02: I've never felt unwelcome.
16:02
SPEAKER_02: I've always recognized that I'm in the minority,
16:04
SPEAKER_02: of course,
16:05
SPEAKER_02: but that that has not inhabited my education.
16:08
SPEAKER_00: Have you had to bite your tongue?
16:09
SPEAKER_00: Do you ever dance on eggshells?
16:13
SPEAKER_02: You know.
16:15
SPEAKER_02: I think many people have had to do that.
16:18
SPEAKER_02: I think earlier,
16:19
SPEAKER_02: around when I first came here in 2022,
16:22
SPEAKER_02: 2023,
16:22
SPEAKER_02: there was a smaller window of acceptable opinion,
16:28
SPEAKER_02: or ones that you don't have to be afraid of voicing.
16:32
SPEAKER_02: I think it's expanded since then.
16:35
SPEAKER_02: There's a lot more variety.
16:36
SPEAKER_02: But...
16:39
SPEAKER_02: For me,
16:41
if I were purely looking to go into finance or going into
16:46
technology like a lot of
16:47
SPEAKER_02: my friends are,
16:48
SPEAKER_02: maybe I would have to bite my tongue.
16:50
SPEAKER_02: And in fact, that's what my father advised me before I came here.
16:53
SPEAKER_02: Be careful what you say.
16:54
SPEAKER_02: Don't say too much about what you believe.
16:58
SPEAKER_02: Keep it close to the chest just for your own sake.
17:00
SPEAKER_02: And I was so stubborn, and I said, I can't do it.
17:04
SPEAKER_02: It's never been something I'm capable of.
17:06
SPEAKER_02: That's not the John R. Peary I know.
17:08
SPEAKER_02: Right, exactly.
17:10
SPEAKER_02: And so,
17:10
SPEAKER_02: frankly,
17:11
I've landed on a career in which my job is to say what I think
17:15
and to not be cowed
17:18
SPEAKER_02: into silence.
17:20
SPEAKER_02: And that,
17:21
SPEAKER_02: I think,
17:21
is a much better fit for me than some other profession where I
17:26
couldn't say what I
17:27
SPEAKER_02: want to say.
17:29
SPEAKER_00: John, I was reflecting.
17:30
I had a couple of left-wing professors who were,
17:33
first of all,
17:34
excellent professors.
17:35
SPEAKER_00: And they were so kind to me,
17:36
SPEAKER_00: so patient,
17:37
SPEAKER_00: indulging me as a budding,
17:39
SPEAKER_00: sort of testy,
17:40
SPEAKER_00: somewhat hot-headed right-winger.
17:43
SPEAKER_00: And they were so patient with me.
17:45
SPEAKER_00: Have you had such professors?
17:48
SPEAKER_00: I think I have.
17:50
I think I have one of one of my all of my almost all of my
17:53
favorite professors have
17:54
SPEAKER_02: been in the history department.
17:56
And of course,
17:57
history professors are not known for being conservative in
17:59
general.
18:01
SPEAKER_02: But and many, of course, are on the left.
18:04
SPEAKER_02: One of my best professors is a professor of military history,
18:08
SPEAKER_02: Gilly Vardy,
18:09
SPEAKER_02: who is actually an Israeli security expert.
18:12
SPEAKER_02: But she is also very much on the left.
18:15
SPEAKER_02: You know, she would call herself far left by Israeli standards.
18:20
SPEAKER_02: It didn't matter to her instruction.
18:21
SPEAKER_02: She was one of the most engaging,
18:23
SPEAKER_02: brilliant experts on military strategy,
18:26
SPEAKER_02: on military history you could ever find.
18:29
And of course,
18:29
she would give ample time to anyone who disagreed with her.
18:32
SPEAKER_02: I have another professor.
18:33
SPEAKER_02: My favorite professor here is a professor of the American Revolution,
18:37
SPEAKER_02: the American founding,
18:38
SPEAKER_02: Jonathan Gannett.
18:39
SPEAKER_02: And frankly, I haven't been able to figure out what his politics are.
18:43
SPEAKER_02: He doesn't tell me and I wouldn't want to know.
18:47
SPEAKER_02: That, I think, is how professors ought to be.
18:50
SPEAKER_02: I think you can be an amazing left-wing professor.
18:52
SPEAKER_02: I think you can be an amazing right-wing professor.
18:55
As long as you keep your field and your instruction first,
19:00
it really doesn't matter.
19:01
SPEAKER_02: Now, of course, there are some professors who...
19:04
SPEAKER_02: who don't see it that way,
19:05
who believe that their job is primarily not to transmit
19:08
information to their
19:09
SPEAKER_02: students but transmit ideology.
19:12
SPEAKER_02: And those are the sort of professors I don't take their classes as much,
19:17
and I feel for my fellow students who are required to take
19:21
their classes and
19:22
SPEAKER_02: forced,
19:23
SPEAKER_02: in some cases,
19:24
SPEAKER_02: or cowed into –
19:26
into saying and believing things uh that they don't really i
19:29
can tell you that my
19:30
best teachers sure they transmitted information but that's not
19:33
enough um my best
19:35
teachers um let me know um how to think not what to think but
19:42
they were good
19:43
examples of of how of how actually to think and then of course
19:48
you have your own
19:48
SPEAKER_00: conclusions right i mean
19:52
SPEAKER_02: Go ahead.
19:52
SPEAKER_02: That's I mean, that's that's the fun of it.
19:55
SPEAKER_02: So I the professor that I mentioned, American Revolution, we disagree.
19:59
I mean,
19:59
he knows a lot more than I do on the subject,
20:01
but we disagree on certain points.
20:02
SPEAKER_02: You know, what was the American Revolution about?
20:04
SPEAKER_02: What was this figure arguing for?
20:06
SPEAKER_02: You know, what is this part of the Constitution really mean?
20:09
SPEAKER_02: And I love going to his office hours and having these disagreements.
20:13
SPEAKER_02: And in a way,
20:15
SPEAKER_02: it's very nice because in the political world,
20:16
SPEAKER_02: I think too often we make superficial agreements.
20:20
We start with the conclusion and then we reason backward to try
20:22
to justify it.
20:25
So I love the professors of the type that you're mentioning who
20:30
have good faith
20:31
SPEAKER_02: disagreement and then through the activity of discussing the subject,
20:37
SPEAKER_02: teach you how to learn.
20:38
SPEAKER_02: That's exactly the right way to put it.
20:40
SPEAKER_00: John,
20:40
SPEAKER_00: I want to ask you,
20:42
SPEAKER_00: do you encounter at Stanford,
20:44
SPEAKER_00: and Stanford's a very classy place,
20:46
SPEAKER_00: you might not have this,
20:47
SPEAKER_00: but do you encounter the illiberal right,
20:51
SPEAKER_00: the fashy right?
20:53
SPEAKER_00: And do you encounter the left left?
20:55
SPEAKER_00: And when people on our side say left,
20:57
SPEAKER_00: they mean Joe Biden,
20:58
SPEAKER_00: Kamala Harris,
21:00
SPEAKER_00: Chuck Schumer,
21:01
SPEAKER_00: that's not the left.
21:02
SPEAKER_00: I mean the left left.
21:04
SPEAKER_00: Do you encounter illiberals?
21:07
SPEAKER_00: And if you do,
21:09
SPEAKER_00: Do you think they'll grow out of it?
21:12
SPEAKER_00: Or maybe it's hard to tell.
21:13
SPEAKER_02: Right.
21:15
SPEAKER_02: Well, I think...
21:17
SPEAKER_02: I did.
21:17
SPEAKER_02: First of all,
21:17
SPEAKER_02: to answer your question,
21:18
SPEAKER_02: but I do encounter illiberals on both the left and the right.
21:22
You may not encounter them if you're just a student here and
21:25
you're studying
21:26
SPEAKER_02: computer science and you're not interested in politics.
21:29
You're probably not going to encounter that or you're probably
21:31
not going to know
21:31
SPEAKER_02: that if you meet if you meet one of these people,
21:34
SPEAKER_02: what they believe.
21:35
SPEAKER_02: But if you're but if you're involved in politics at all,
21:38
SPEAKER_02: it becomes very apparent that these are major forces on campus.
21:42
SPEAKER_02: On the left, I will say that there are there are
21:46
SPEAKER_02: hard left, as you say, student groups.
21:49
SPEAKER_02: But there's also many hard left administrators,
21:51
some hard left professors in certain departments that my
21:54
friends my friends have
21:55
SPEAKER_02: encountered.
21:56
SPEAKER_02: And when I mean hard, as you do, I mean, uncompromising.
21:59
SPEAKER_02: Right.
22:00
SPEAKER_02: There can be there can be no divergence on the right.
22:05
Frankly,
22:05
Silicon Valley,
22:06
it may be one of the birthplaces of the new right.
22:09
I argue this in one of my first articles here as a freshman at
22:12
the Stanford Daily,
22:14
that a lot of this new right ecosystem sprung out of not just
22:18
Silicon Valley,
22:18
SPEAKER_02: but Stanford.
22:19
SPEAKER_02: It was Peter Thiel who founded the Stanford Review,
22:22
SPEAKER_02: our right of center newspaper,
22:23
SPEAKER_02: newspaper here many decades ago.
22:26
SPEAKER_02: It was.
22:29
SPEAKER_02: Josh Hawley, who was an undergraduate here at Stanford.
22:32
SPEAKER_02: Was he?
22:33
SPEAKER_02: He was, as was Blake Masters.
22:35
He's a very inside baseball political figure who ran for a
22:41
Senate in Arizona.
22:42
But Josh Hawley was a real sort of Scalia classical liberal,
22:46
wasn't he,
22:47
once upon a time?
22:48
SPEAKER_00: Hasn't he evolved, to use a gentle phrase?
22:52
SPEAKER_02: I suppose he has evolved.
22:54
SPEAKER_02: Anyway, keep going.
22:56
SPEAKER_00: No, no.
22:57
SPEAKER_02: Just a diversion.
22:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
22:59
SPEAKER_02: But I think Silicon Valley – now,
23:01
SPEAKER_02: of course,
23:01
SPEAKER_02: we have figures like Curtis Yarvin,
23:03
SPEAKER_02: a priest of this online right who has ideas of neo-monarchy.
23:09
SPEAKER_00: These people despise the American founding, right?
23:12
SPEAKER_02: Yes, openly.
23:14
SPEAKER_02: Well, there is a spectrum.
23:16
SPEAKER_00: In what sense are they conservative?
23:17
Or maybe they don't consider themselves conservative,
23:19
which would be a break for conservatives.
23:21
SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, the most honest ones don't.
23:23
They'll say,
23:24
you know,
23:24
I was never on the American founding wasn't worthwhile.
23:27
You know,
23:28
this whole liberalism project is actually contrary to human
23:30
nature.
23:31
It's contrary to human flourishing and the American founding
23:35
that institutionalized it.
23:37
SPEAKER_02: should be left behind, should be overturned.
23:40
SPEAKER_02: That's honest, yeah.
23:41
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, these are people who say, I don't like the conservative project.
23:45
SPEAKER_02: They more likely call themselves post-liberal,
23:49
SPEAKER_02: which would mean post-America,
23:52
SPEAKER_02: if we're being honest.
23:54
SPEAKER_02: Whether they'll grow out of it,
23:55
SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure,
23:57
SPEAKER_02: given that I'm more and more convinced that there's nothing...
24:01
There's nothing inherent about American soil or American blood
24:04
that makes it
24:04
SPEAKER_02: conducive to liberty or to liberalism or to republicanism,
24:08
SPEAKER_00: is there?
24:08
SPEAKER_00: Not a damn thing.
24:10
SPEAKER_00: No.
24:11
SPEAKER_00: American exceptionalism, my butt.
24:13
SPEAKER_00: Pardon my French.
24:14
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
24:15
SPEAKER_00: The human material is unchanging wherever it is.
24:17
SPEAKER_00: Right.
24:18
SPEAKER_02: Right.
24:18
SPEAKER_02: I mean did Vikings grow out of their political ideology?
24:23
SPEAKER_02: Did they mature into liberalism?
24:25
SPEAKER_02: No.
24:25
And I think it's because of something that conservatives have
24:27
long kind of
24:28
recognized in their words but I think only recently have been
24:31
confronted with it
24:31
SPEAKER_02: and had to internalize,
24:33
SPEAKER_02: which is that liberalism,
24:35
SPEAKER_02: republicanism,
24:35
SPEAKER_02: the American founding,
24:36
SPEAKER_02: whatever,
24:37
SPEAKER_02: is not natural.
24:38
SPEAKER_02: It's against the current.
24:40
SPEAKER_02: If we let things just play out naturally, then it would all disappear.
24:46
SPEAKER_00: It would be a mafia state.
24:48
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
24:48
SPEAKER_02: Right.
24:49
So so I guess whether whether they grow out of it is whether or
24:54
not we decide to
24:56
SPEAKER_02: commit to things that are against our nature,
24:59
SPEAKER_02: that are against because if we were just growing as a plant does,
25:04
SPEAKER_02: then I think we'd grow into it.
25:06
SPEAKER_00: Well,
25:07
SPEAKER_00: I've said this a lot in this podcast,
25:10
SPEAKER_00: but Robert Kagan wrote a book called The Jungle Grows Back.
25:14
SPEAKER_00: I've read that.
25:15
SPEAKER_00: And I said to him on this program,
25:18
SPEAKER_00: because the subtitle,
25:19
SPEAKER_00: sorry,
25:19
SPEAKER_00: the title and the subtitle just said almost all that had to be,
25:23
SPEAKER_00: I can't remember the subtitle.
25:25
SPEAKER_00: And I mentioned this to Bob and he said,
25:27
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
25:27
it was almost a shame to have to write a whole book after that
25:29
because it's right
25:30
SPEAKER_00: there,
25:31
SPEAKER_00: the jungle grows back.
25:33
The garden of liberty needs constant tending because the weeds
25:37
come in and choke.
25:39
SPEAKER_00: Right.
25:40
SPEAKER_00: What do I got for you?
25:41
SPEAKER_00: There's an old expression that politics makes strange bedfellows.
25:45
SPEAKER_00: And I'll tell you an interesting experience I had this morning.
25:49
SPEAKER_00: I did a podcast with a woman.
25:50
SPEAKER_00: A woman invited me on her podcast.
25:52
SPEAKER_00: She works for the Pacifica Radio Network.
25:56
This is a leftist radio network that I'm sure I've denounced
26:03
over the years.
26:04
SPEAKER_02: Sure.
26:04
SPEAKER_02: But it's kind of them to have you on.
26:06
SPEAKER_00: Well, but here's the thing.
26:08
SPEAKER_00: And this dear woman,
26:10
SPEAKER_00: an excellent interviewer,
26:12
SPEAKER_00: daughter of a famous scientist,
26:14
SPEAKER_00: Rudenberg,
26:16
SPEAKER_00: she's anti-Putin,
26:17
SPEAKER_00: pro-Ukraine,
26:19
SPEAKER_00: pro-freedom and democracy.
26:21
SPEAKER_00: So am I.
26:22
SPEAKER_00: We talked about war and peace and Ukraine and the,
26:26
SPEAKER_00: I was going to say newly imperial Russia.
26:30
SPEAKER_00: Let's just say Russia.
26:31
SPEAKER_01: Right.
26:33
SPEAKER_00: And I wonder,
26:33
SPEAKER_00: at Stanford,
26:36
SPEAKER_00: are there alliances between,
26:37
SPEAKER_00: let's say,
26:38
SPEAKER_00: center-left people and center-right people who are simply pro-freedom,
26:41
SPEAKER_00: pro-democracy,
26:42
SPEAKER_00: pro-ordered liberty,
26:44
who support the Ukrainians in their struggle to survive and
26:48
think that Putin and
26:48
SPEAKER_00: the Kremlin are bad news?
26:50
SPEAKER_00: Does that exist?
26:52
SPEAKER_00: Or do you just have factions and islands?
26:58
SPEAKER_02: You know,
26:59
SPEAKER_02: I think if I were saying,
27:01
SPEAKER_02: if I were speaking when I just arrived here,
27:03
SPEAKER_02: it would be more the latter.
27:04
You know,
27:05
the factions,
27:05
the islands,
27:06
everyone's sort of warring with each other.
27:07
SPEAKER_02: Everyone has to have a place and a tribe.
27:09
SPEAKER_02: But increasingly,
27:11
SPEAKER_02: I found that Stanford has,
27:13
SPEAKER_02: and it's come from both places,
27:14
SPEAKER_02: it's been opening up.
27:16
SPEAKER_02: It's come from the administration who has said,
27:18
SPEAKER_02: you know,
27:18
SPEAKER_02: we can't be so cordoned off from one another.
27:21
SPEAKER_02: We have to have a more open exchange of ideas under the new president,
27:25
SPEAKER_02: President Jonathan Levin,
27:27
SPEAKER_02: who I think is doing a very good job so far.
27:28
SPEAKER_02: And it's come from from student organizations.
27:31
I have friends of mine who have started or who have restarted
27:34
the Stanford
27:35
SPEAKER_02: political union here was dormant for a long time.
27:37
SPEAKER_02: And this is a place for students,
27:39
SPEAKER_02: left,
27:39
SPEAKER_02: right,
27:40
SPEAKER_02: center,
27:41
SPEAKER_02: everywhere in between,
27:42
SPEAKER_02: to come together to have political arguments,
27:44
SPEAKER_02: to have political discussions,
27:46
SPEAKER_02: to listen to speakers from both sides,
27:49
SPEAKER_02: from different backgrounds.
27:51
SPEAKER_02: That has been an institution of the sort you're describing,
27:54
SPEAKER_02: where we do find common ground,
27:56
SPEAKER_02: or at least common ground in our willingness to agree on some things,
28:01
SPEAKER_02: on some basic things,
28:02
SPEAKER_02: and then to disagree on all the rest.
28:04
SPEAKER_00: I love this language from – I borrowed it from David French.
28:07
to live within the frame of ordered liberty,
28:10
the frame of our constitution.
28:12
Yeah,
28:12
we can fight all the day long,
28:14
even ferociously,
28:15
even viciously,
28:16
not in a physical way.
28:17
SPEAKER_00: But the point is to live within the frame of our liberal democracy.
28:22
SPEAKER_00: Yes,
28:22
SPEAKER_02: and I think the frame here at Stanford is strengthening,
28:25
SPEAKER_02: and I think that's a very good development.
28:27
SPEAKER_02: Good, good.
28:28
SPEAKER_00: So, John R. Puri, I sometimes ask people about their pantheon.
28:34
SPEAKER_00: Do you have writers,
28:35
SPEAKER_00: political thinkers,
28:37
SPEAKER_00: going back to the Greeks,
28:37
SPEAKER_00: whatever you like,
28:39
SPEAKER_00: ones who just mean a whole lot to you?
28:44
SPEAKER_02: Yes, I do.
28:46
SPEAKER_02: I could kind of take it chronologically.
28:48
SPEAKER_02: Do it.
28:50
SPEAKER_02: Well,
28:50
SPEAKER_02: chronologically,
28:51
SPEAKER_02: I'll say not in terms of history,
28:52
but in terms of when I came across them and when they were
28:55
added to my pantheon.
28:55
SPEAKER_02: How about that?
28:56
SPEAKER_02: Your personal.
28:57
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
28:59
The first people that I came across were actually when I was
29:02
just a high school student.
29:03
SPEAKER_02: I would.
29:05
SPEAKER_02: I came, you know, we're Internet natives, as people call us.
29:09
SPEAKER_02: And I would find videos of Milton Friedman talking about economics.
29:14
SPEAKER_02: I'd find videos of Thomas Sowell doing the same,
29:16
SPEAKER_02: being interviewed by Peter Robinson,
29:18
SPEAKER_02: who's actually here at the Hoover Institution.
29:20
SPEAKER_02: And I know Thomas Sowell still lives around here.
29:22
I would find videos of old firing line debates and interviews
29:27
with William Buckley Jr.
29:29
SPEAKER_02: And I found so much value in these.
29:31
SPEAKER_02: I said this is the sort of person,
29:35
SPEAKER_02: the sort of thinker that I want to become,
29:37
SPEAKER_02: that I want to be in the same company as.
29:41
We used to have to sit in front of the television on Sunday
29:43
afternoon and fiddle
29:44
SPEAKER_00: with the antenna to see if PBS would come in and hear you just click.
29:49
SPEAKER_00: That's wonderful.
29:50
SPEAKER_02: I know.
29:51
SPEAKER_02: So the internet can expose us to a lot of poor influences.
29:54
There's a lot of poor influences going viral,
29:57
so to speak,
29:57
on the internet among my generation.
29:59
SPEAKER_02: But it also,
29:59
SPEAKER_02: on the bright side,
30:00
lets people like me find these voices of the past that
30:03
otherwise we have no access
30:04
SPEAKER_02: to.
30:04
SPEAKER_00: By the way,
30:05
SPEAKER_00: before we continue with Pantheon,
30:06
SPEAKER_00: you mentioned earlier in our conversation Generation Z,
30:09
SPEAKER_00: and I didn't interrupt you.
30:10
SPEAKER_00: What does that mean?
30:11
SPEAKER_00: What's the Z stand for?
30:14
SPEAKER_02: I think there was actually a chronology of generations.
30:19
SPEAKER_02: I think there was a Generation X. That's my parents' generation.
30:24
SPEAKER_02: The boomers may have been formally,
30:26
SPEAKER_02: I don't know,
30:28
SPEAKER_02: Generation W.
30:29
That one I can understand because they were part of the baby
30:32
boom that followed
30:33
SPEAKER_00: World War II.
30:34
SPEAKER_00: I don't really get Z and X in those – yeah.
30:37
SPEAKER_02: Well,
30:38
SPEAKER_02: you see,
30:38
SPEAKER_02: I think it's the millennials are formerly Generation Y,
30:42
SPEAKER_02: and that made us Generation Z.
30:43
SPEAKER_02: And now we're going along the other side to Generation Alpha.
30:47
SPEAKER_02: These are the kids who are 12 and under, the ones coming up.
30:52
SPEAKER_02: By the way, what was the XYZ affair in American history?
30:55
SPEAKER_00: Just kidding.
30:56
SPEAKER_00: This is not the SAT.
30:57
SPEAKER_00: Just kidding.
30:57
SPEAKER_00: Just kidding.
30:58
SPEAKER_00: So your pantheon.
30:59
SPEAKER_00: Keep going.
31:00
SPEAKER_02: Right.
31:01
SPEAKER_02: Well,
31:02
once I kind of got into conservative ideas from these people I
31:06
found on the
31:06
SPEAKER_02: Internet,
31:08
SPEAKER_02: then I got involved in reading things,
31:11
SPEAKER_02: reading news websites.
31:12
SPEAKER_02: So I read The Wall Street Journal religiously throughout high school.
31:17
SPEAKER_02: I love the editorial board.
31:18
And the first columnist that I really fell in love with was
31:21
Peggy Noonan of The
31:22
SPEAKER_02: Wall Street Journal.
31:23
SPEAKER_02: She's just a wonderful writer.
31:25
SPEAKER_02: And I have one of her recent collections.
31:28
SPEAKER_02: And from there,
31:28
I kind of gained this strange fascination with conservative
31:33
colonists or colonists
31:34
SPEAKER_02: who are conservative.
31:36
SPEAKER_02: Let's call them that.
31:37
I'll just tell the audience that John and I have discussed this
31:39
issue before.
31:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
31:42
… who went out into unfriendly territory,
31:46
the Washington Post,
31:47
the New York Times.
31:49
SPEAKER_02: So I became an enormous fan,
31:50
SPEAKER_02: and I still am,
31:51
SPEAKER_02: of George Will,
31:53
SPEAKER_02: who has been highly influential on me.
31:55
SPEAKER_02: Although they were before my time,
31:58
SPEAKER_02: I gained a lot of appreciation for Bill Sapphire and Charles Krauthammer.
32:04
SPEAKER_02: Now you're naming my nearest and dearest.
32:08
SPEAKER_02: There you go.
32:12
I wish I could go back and kind of read their columns as they
32:15
were coming out
32:15
SPEAKER_02: because now I kind of have to sort through the mess going backwards.
32:20
SPEAKER_02: But then I got this great fascination with these writers.
32:24
SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure mess is the word, young man, but I know.
32:27
SPEAKER_00: I'm just teasing you, teasing you.
32:30
SPEAKER_02: Through the archives.
32:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
32:32
SPEAKER_00: I got you.
32:33
SPEAKER_00: And then, of course.
32:34
SPEAKER_00: We had to wait for these columns to come out.
32:36
SPEAKER_00: Charles laughed at this.
32:38
SPEAKER_00: The first time I ever wrote them.
32:39
SPEAKER_00: I was hoping he'd write on a particular subject.
32:41
SPEAKER_00: And his column appeared on Friday in the Washington Post.
32:45
SPEAKER_00: I don't think we have the Internet, at least if we came to know it.
32:48
SPEAKER_00: And I couldn't wait to get that paper.
32:50
SPEAKER_00: And so I got the paper and I was driving to work in Washington.
32:54
And I read I couldn't wait to get to work to sit down and read
32:57
the column.
32:57
SPEAKER_00: I read it at stoplights.
33:00
SPEAKER_00: And I later got to know Charles well.
33:04
SPEAKER_00: But I wrote him as just a fan way back that said happened.
33:08
SPEAKER_00: And he wrote me back a really sweet,
33:10
SPEAKER_00: charming note that said,
33:11
SPEAKER_00: thank you very much,
33:14
SPEAKER_00: but be sure,
33:15
SPEAKER_00: stoplights only.
33:18
SPEAKER_02: Right.
33:18
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
33:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
33:19
SPEAKER_02: No.
33:20
SPEAKER_02: And now now I every Wednesday and Friday,
33:22
I can just pull out my phone on my laptop and see what George
33:25
Willis written that
33:25
SPEAKER_02: day.
33:27
SPEAKER_02: Of course, I'm getting it late because I'm out here on Pacific time.
33:29
SPEAKER_02: So so quite a few people have read it before me.
33:32
SPEAKER_02: But I guess to finish off my pantheon,
33:34
SPEAKER_02: I gained an appreciation by reading history,
33:36
SPEAKER_02: by taking history classes here about some great American figures,
33:41
SPEAKER_02: mostly some great American political thinkers and actors.
33:44
SPEAKER_02: I'd put Madison at the top of my list.
33:46
SPEAKER_02: I'd put Frederick Douglass.
33:48
SPEAKER_00: Your man, George Will, has Madison as his computer.
33:51
What do you call it when there's a picture that's always there
33:53
on your homepage?
33:56
SPEAKER_02: The save screen?
33:57
SPEAKER_00: When he opens his computer, he's looking at James Madison.
34:00
SPEAKER_00: James Madison, Frederick Douglass with two S's.
34:02
SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much.
34:04
SPEAKER_02: Yes, a good reminder to have them on your computer screen.
34:07
SPEAKER_02: Douglas Lincoln, of course, has to be in there.
34:11
SPEAKER_02: And then Barry Goldwater,
34:12
SPEAKER_02: I think as well,
34:14
has to be in there for being the reluctant first mover in
34:20
conservative politics to
34:22
bring the ideas that Buckley and National Review have been
34:26
working on for a while
34:27
SPEAKER_02: to the forefront.
34:29
SPEAKER_02: So that would be my pantheon, I'd say.
34:33
So we've talked about this issue and you alluded to it or
34:38
referred to it.
34:40
This is very Buckley and big difference between a conservative
34:44
journalist and a
34:45
SPEAKER_00: journalist,
34:45
SPEAKER_00: a real journalist,
34:47
SPEAKER_00: a real writer who is conservative or a conservative.
34:50
SPEAKER_00: And I know that you are of the latter variety as he was.
34:54
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
34:55
SPEAKER_02: Now, it is a critical distinction.
34:58
I've heard from a lot of writers I respect a lot who are also
35:02
conservatives that,
35:04
SPEAKER_02: you know,
35:04
there have been certain points in their in their careers where
35:07
they thought that
35:07
SPEAKER_02: the pressure from their audiences may have been,
35:09
SPEAKER_02: you know,
35:10
SPEAKER_02: what are you trying to do for the Republican Party?
35:12
SPEAKER_02: You know,
35:12
SPEAKER_02: what are you trying to do for this midterm election or or,
35:15
SPEAKER_02: you know,
35:15
SPEAKER_02: or this presidential election to to advance our candidates?
35:19
SPEAKER_02: And they would say, well, that's not really what I do.
35:22
SPEAKER_02: That's not my job.
35:23
My job is to go out and perceive information and write about
35:27
what I think.
35:28
SPEAKER_02: And it happens to be from a conservative perspective.
35:32
SPEAKER_02: But that doesn't mean that I'm a political activist.
35:35
SPEAKER_02: So I think it's critical that writer or journalist has to come first.
35:39
SPEAKER_02: That has to be the noun in the title.
35:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
35:44
Bill Buckley,
35:44
I don't know if they do this now,
35:46
but I have to look at my passport.
35:48
SPEAKER_00: It's not very far from me, but I don't think we list our occupation.
35:51
But I think you once did or said what your occupation was when
35:54
you applied.
35:57
SPEAKER_00: And he always said journalist.
35:59
SPEAKER_02: Right.
36:00
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
36:00
SPEAKER_02: And he should be proud of that.
36:01
SPEAKER_02: He was a journalist,
36:02
one of the best we ever had and one of the most impactful we
36:06
ever had in America.
36:08
SPEAKER_02: But yeah.
36:09
SPEAKER_00: You are a Gen Z kid, by the way.
36:10
SPEAKER_00: You say impactful.
36:12
SPEAKER_00: That's not a word for my generation, but it's a generational thing.
36:15
SPEAKER_00: It's okay.
36:18
SPEAKER_02: I know you lament the change in language.
36:20
SPEAKER_02: No, that's okay.
36:21
SPEAKER_02: Evolution, evolution.
36:23
SPEAKER_02: There you go.
36:24
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, I would love the job title of journalist.
36:29
SPEAKER_02: I hope you're very kind to give it to me already.
36:31
SPEAKER_02: But I also think it's important not to
36:34
SPEAKER_02: not to check your principles at the front door.
36:37
SPEAKER_02: And that could be because you think either you have to be objective,
36:41
SPEAKER_02: and I don't know if there's any such thing.
36:44
It's not a bad thing to have beliefs and apply them as long as
36:48
you don't think.
36:49
SPEAKER_00: But John R.
36:49
SPEAKER_00: Puri,
36:51
there is such a thing as straight reporting or striving for
36:54
objective reporting,
36:55
SPEAKER_00: which is different from your kind of opinion journalism.
36:58
SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't give that up too easily.
37:02
SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't concede that too much.
37:04
SPEAKER_00: Sure, we all have biases.
37:05
SPEAKER_00: We all have beliefs.
37:06
SPEAKER_00: We all have inclinations, maybe prejudices.
37:09
SPEAKER_00: But you can say Jones says this,
37:11
SPEAKER_00: Smith says this,
37:12
SPEAKER_00: and represent Jones and Smith fairly and equally.
37:16
SPEAKER_00: That is certainly possible, even if you think one of them stinks.
37:20
SPEAKER_02: It is.
37:20
SPEAKER_02: It is.
37:21
SPEAKER_00: I understand that that's not the kind of journalism you want to do.
37:24
SPEAKER_00: No.
37:25
SPEAKER_02: No, I think you're right.
37:27
SPEAKER_00: You want to be like George Will or as Jonathan Last,
37:29
SPEAKER_00: who also loves him,
37:30
SPEAKER_00: says George effing Will.
37:32
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
37:33
SPEAKER_00: You put the emphasis on it.
37:35
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
37:35
SPEAKER_02: I've always been drawn to arguments.
37:38
SPEAKER_02: You're completely right.
37:39
SPEAKER_00: You're a high school debater, aren't you?
37:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
37:41
SPEAKER_02: Right.
37:42
SPEAKER_02: You can do straight reporting.
37:44
SPEAKER_02: I guess my only reservation would be you should be –
37:49
If you're bringing your beliefs to the table,
37:52
you shouldn't say your objective.
37:53
SPEAKER_02: You should be honest.
37:55
SPEAKER_02: That's all I would say is that – Yeah, transparency.
38:00
SPEAKER_00: Show your colors.
38:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
38:02
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
38:02
SPEAKER_02: So be transparent.
38:04
SPEAKER_02: I have no problem with MSNBC.
38:06
SPEAKER_00: I couldn't hide my colors if I tried.
38:08
SPEAKER_00: Right.
38:09
SPEAKER_00: Maybe that's bad.
38:10
SPEAKER_00: Right.
38:10
SPEAKER_02: Right.
38:11
SPEAKER_02: So I'm not sure I'd make a good straight reporter,
38:13
SPEAKER_02: but I think I can make a good argumentative journalist.
38:17
SPEAKER_00: Yes, you could.
38:18
If you had to do it,
38:19
if you were asked to do it or assigned to do it,
38:21
you could.
38:22
Yes,
38:22
and I have been assigned to do it,
38:25
and I think it's worked out pretty well.
38:27
SPEAKER_02: I just don't know if I could devote my career to something like that,
38:30
SPEAKER_02: even though it's indispensable,
38:31
SPEAKER_02: and I completely respect all who do it.
38:33
SPEAKER_00: So I'm not trying to frame this question.
38:35
SPEAKER_00: The simple way would be what issues do you care most about?
38:38
SPEAKER_00: That sounds, I don't know, a little bit treacly.
38:41
SPEAKER_00: Also, you know, what issues keep you up at night?
38:42
SPEAKER_00: The issues don't even have to be spooky.
38:47
SPEAKER_00: I think Ukraine matters a great deal to Ukrainians,
38:52
SPEAKER_00: to Europe,
38:53
SPEAKER_00: to the fate of the world,
38:55
SPEAKER_00: a great deal.
38:57
SPEAKER_00: I'm anti-abortion, blah, blah, blah.
39:01
SPEAKER_00: So there are things I care a lot about.
39:03
SPEAKER_00: Do you have an issue or two or three that at the moment,
39:05
SPEAKER_00: I don't mean in life and forever,
39:07
SPEAKER_00: but right this second,
39:09
SPEAKER_00: issues that are sort of commanding your attention
39:13
SPEAKER_00: Yes, I am.
39:14
You're a student and doing your classes and learning and
39:17
graduating that those
39:18
SPEAKER_00: should be the number one issues for you.
39:20
SPEAKER_00: But you know what I mean?
39:21
SPEAKER_02: I'd start with our old.
39:23
SPEAKER_02: Right.
39:24
SPEAKER_02: I start actually pretty fundamentally with our constitutional design.
39:28
I've taken so many classes now on the American founding,
39:31
and I have such an appreciation.
39:33
You believe in the process and all that crap that no one
39:35
believes in anymore?
39:36
SPEAKER_00: I know.
39:37
SPEAKER_02: I know.
39:37
SPEAKER_00: I don't know what time it is, frankly.
39:39
SPEAKER_00: You really do.
39:41
SPEAKER_00: You're a dinosaur.
39:42
SPEAKER_00: I love it.
39:42
SPEAKER_00: You're a young, marvelous dinosaur.
39:44
SPEAKER_00: Keep going.
39:44
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
39:45
SPEAKER_02: I'm stuck in 76 and 89, 1776, 1789, to be clear.
39:51
SPEAKER_02: But I am amazed.
39:52
SPEAKER_00: But by 1789, you don't mean France.
39:55
SPEAKER_02: No, no.
39:56
SPEAKER_02: I mean the ratification.
39:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, France, yeah, they didn't do it.
40:03
SPEAKER_02: Quite right.
40:04
SPEAKER_02: Like we did.
40:06
But I am amazed and disgusted at how Congress refused to do its
40:11
job with such
40:14
SPEAKER_02: regularity and impunity.
40:15
SPEAKER_02: I am.
40:17
SPEAKER_02: Heartened in many ways and sometimes disappointed,
40:21
SPEAKER_02: but more often hardened at a judiciary that does do its job.
40:26
SPEAKER_00: Isn't separation of power – let's hail a Frenchman, Montesquieu.
40:30
SPEAKER_00: Isn't separation of power a marvelous innovation?
40:33
SPEAKER_00: It is.
40:34
SPEAKER_00: It is.
40:34
SPEAKER_00: And it's so counterintuitive.
40:36
SPEAKER_00: I know.
40:36
SPEAKER_00: I know.
40:38
SPEAKER_02: And I mean,
40:39
SPEAKER_02: frankly,
40:39
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
40:40
SPEAKER_02: yeah,
40:40
what Wilson Woodward Wilson said when he was critiquing the
40:43
separation of powers
40:44
SPEAKER_02: is,
40:44
SPEAKER_02: you know,
40:44
why do we why do we have different parts of our government at
40:48
war with one another
40:49
SPEAKER_02: would be like different body parts,
40:50
SPEAKER_02: you know,
40:50
SPEAKER_02: the brain and the heart being at odds with one another.
40:53
SPEAKER_00: I learned something interesting from your man,
40:55
SPEAKER_00: George Will,
40:55
SPEAKER_00: a long time ago,
40:56
because everyone was lamenting stalemate in Washington and
40:59
denouncing stalemate.
41:01
SPEAKER_00: And Will said, you know, stalemate is actually good.
41:03
SPEAKER_00: It's a sign of democratic health.
41:05
SPEAKER_00: Because in authoritarian countries, there's never stalemate.
41:11
SPEAKER_00: The rulers get their way.
41:13
SPEAKER_02: Stalemate?
41:14
SPEAKER_02: What's that?
41:15
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
41:16
And couldn't we use a little bit more friction between our
41:19
legislative and our
41:20
executive branch and maybe give Steve Bannon less of a reason
41:24
to call it the Duma,
41:25
SPEAKER_02: right?
41:26
SPEAKER_02: It's just the Russian legislature, right?
41:28
SPEAKER_02: There's no friction whatsoever.
41:29
SPEAKER_02: Well, I don't think our Congress should be like that.
41:33
SPEAKER_02: But but the judiciary,
41:34
SPEAKER_02: I believe,
41:35
SPEAKER_02: you know,
41:36
and George will has a part to play in convincing me of this of
41:38
a very active
41:39
judiciary that takes constitutional protections against
41:42
majoritarian violations
41:45
SPEAKER_02: seriously.
41:46
SPEAKER_02: And I also care about.
41:51
Not just the judiciary caring about our constitution,
41:55
but the public as well.
41:56
SPEAKER_02: It's not just a legal document.
41:58
SPEAKER_02: It requires public support.
41:59
It requires legislative support,
42:01
and it requires executive adherence as well.
42:05
SPEAKER_00: You were for civic education.
42:08
SPEAKER_02: I am.
42:09
SPEAKER_02: Very much so.
42:10
SPEAKER_02: Me too.
42:11
SPEAKER_00: People don't squat, by the way.
42:14
SPEAKER_00: How about all your bright Stanford peers?
42:17
SPEAKER_00: Are they aware of the fundamentals of our democracy, do you think?
42:21
SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure they are.
42:23
SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure they know what certain arrangements are for.
42:27
SPEAKER_02: They express frustrations with the political system,
42:31
SPEAKER_02: but they're not doing the Chesterton's fence work.
42:36
SPEAKER_00: By the way, when you're in high school, I had this in junior high.
42:39
Well,
42:39
I went to something called an intermediate school,
42:40
which is seventh through ninth.
42:42
SPEAKER_00: We had civics.
42:44
SPEAKER_00: That sounds like an antique word.
42:46
SPEAKER_00: Did you have something called civics ever?
42:49
SPEAKER_02: Well, we did have – in high school, I had government education.
42:54
SPEAKER_02: We had a class of government.
42:56
SPEAKER_02: Same.
42:57
I took AP government,
42:58
AP US history,
42:59
things like that,
43:00
but those were elected.
43:00
SPEAKER_00: That's a little different, but yeah.
43:02
SPEAKER_00: These were the fundamentals of citizenship.
43:05
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, not nearly as much as we should.
43:09
SPEAKER_02: We get the broad overview.
43:11
I think we get a very descriptive overview saying,
43:14
okay,
43:14
here's how things work.
43:15
SPEAKER_02: Here's what Congress does.
43:17
SPEAKER_02: Here's what the executive does.
43:18
SPEAKER_02: Here's what the judiciary does.
43:20
SPEAKER_02: But we don't understand the why, right?
43:24
SPEAKER_02: We read the Constitution, but we don't read the Federalist Papers, right?
43:27
SPEAKER_02: We don't understand why it was set up this way,
43:29
SPEAKER_02: and therefore we're more likely to take it for granted.
43:33
SPEAKER_00: Gotcha.
43:34
SPEAKER_00: Gotcha.
43:35
SPEAKER_00: So, um, we're getting to toward, toward the end here.
43:37
SPEAKER_00: I want to know, this is so cheesy, but I'm cheesy.
43:41
SPEAKER_00: So I don't really care.
43:42
Um,
43:44
what I realized that when I talk to student audiences,
43:48
I often say,
43:48
um,
43:51
SPEAKER_00: about a person's views and how they may change.
43:55
SPEAKER_00: And I often,
43:56
SPEAKER_00: I quote what flight attendants say as the plane lands,
44:00
SPEAKER_00: be careful when opening overhead bins,
44:03
SPEAKER_00: luggage may have shifted in transit and our luggage shifts in transit.
44:08
SPEAKER_00: But anyway,
44:09
SPEAKER_00: as of now,
44:11
I would just wonder what contributions would you like to make
44:17
to the world?
44:18
SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
44:20
SPEAKER_02: You know, I think that I want to be a journalist.
44:23
SPEAKER_02: I've decided upon that.
44:24
All the people telling me I ought to go to law school have lost
44:27
that argument.
44:30
SPEAKER_02: My grandmother so wanted me to go to law school.
44:32
SPEAKER_02: I'm afraid I disappointed her so much.
44:35
SPEAKER_02: At this point in my generation,
44:37
anyone who can use English half decently is told to go to law
44:41
school because so few
44:42
SPEAKER_02: can,
44:43
SPEAKER_02: unfortunately.
44:45
SPEAKER_02: But I think as a journalist, I should have...
44:48
somewhat humble view of my of my role right i'm not going to
44:51
single-handedly change
44:53
the world uh and i shouldn't see myself frankly maybe with
44:56
three or four others
44:56
then i'd be single-handed yeah right right exactly um now now
45:01
some journalists do
45:02
end up changing the world i think william f buckley is a good
45:04
example of that uh
45:05
but he's so rare uh among journalists he made a big dent but is
45:09
it changing back
45:10
SPEAKER_00: young man
45:12
SPEAKER_02: That's for another podcast.
45:14
SPEAKER_02: But the Soviet Union is still dead, and that is a victory.
45:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
45:18
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
45:19
But revanchism is probably – ask the Ukrainians whether the
45:22
Soviet Union is dead.
45:23
SPEAKER_00: But I got you.
45:24
SPEAKER_00: I'm just playing with you a little bit.
45:25
SPEAKER_02: No, no.
45:26
SPEAKER_02: I completely understand.
45:27
SPEAKER_02: I think –
45:30
SPEAKER_02: Honestly,
45:31
SPEAKER_02: as I've read back through historical texts,
45:35
and especially the most impactful ones were the pamphlet
45:37
debates that happened
45:38
SPEAKER_00: around the time of the American founding.
45:39
SPEAKER_00: Thanks a lot, John.
45:41
SPEAKER_00: I'll try to get with the program.
45:43
SPEAKER_00: It's hard to teach an old dog new tricks.
45:46
SPEAKER_02: The ones that have resonated with me the most were the pamphlet debates.
45:50
SPEAKER_02: Not one single writer at the time of the American founding.
45:54
SPEAKER_02: Well, maybe with the exception of Thomas Paine, I will say.
45:57
SPEAKER_02: So, again, some writers do change the world.
46:00
SPEAKER_02: But in the broader debate, it wasn't the single writer.
46:04
SPEAKER_02: or the single argument that made the difference.
46:06
SPEAKER_02: It was everything together, right?
46:08
SPEAKER_02: It was the conversation.
46:10
The fact that America has always had such a vibrant field of
46:14
people disagreeing
46:15
SPEAKER_02: with each other in public.
46:17
SPEAKER_02: That's what I want to participate in.
46:19
SPEAKER_02: I don't want to be the sole voice.
46:21
SPEAKER_02: I don't want to be the sole changemaker.
46:22
SPEAKER_00: You don't want to be the sole voice.
46:23
SPEAKER_00: What kind of modern American are you?
46:26
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
46:28
I want to be part of the conversation because the conversation
46:32
itself is so
46:33
SPEAKER_02: important,
46:33
SPEAKER_02: and it needs many voices.
46:34
SPEAKER_02: It needs many hands.
46:37
SPEAKER_00: I'll give you a story about two people you like, three people you like.
46:40
thomas paine ronald reagan and george will so through the 1980
46:45
presidential
46:45
campaign reagan kept saying kept quoting thomas paine uh we
46:50
have the power within
46:51
us to begin the world all over again or to begin the world anew
46:54
and no we don't
46:56
1980 convention in in detroit i think it was written above the
47:00
dais something like
47:02
you know the power to begin the world and it was something like
47:04
that and george
47:05
SPEAKER_00: will who's
47:06
SPEAKER_00: Not not only an admirer of Reagan,
47:08
SPEAKER_00: but but to the extent Reagan had friends outside his own wife.
47:13
SPEAKER_00: He was a friend of Reagan's.
47:15
And he said what Payne said is the least conservative statement
47:19
ever uttered.
47:21
SPEAKER_01: Right.
47:21
SPEAKER_00: Reagan was really a liberal is the dirty little secret.
47:26
SPEAKER_00: And so we can discuss this another time.
47:29
SPEAKER_00: But but yes, absolutely.
47:31
SPEAKER_00: John.
47:33
um so a republic if you can keep it do you think we can keep it
47:42
i think it's up to
47:43
us isn't it right uh of course we can keep it uh and we've been
47:47
in worse places as
47:48
a republic in the past um but as i said before the natural
47:53
inclination of mankind
47:55
is to give it up right or to shrink away from them uh or to
48:00
take it for granted and
48:00
SPEAKER_02: let it decay um
48:03
SPEAKER_02: So it's within our power, but that means that it's our responsibility.
48:09
SPEAKER_02: And I don't know if we're doing a great job at the moment.
48:11
SPEAKER_02: In fact, I know we're not.
48:14
SPEAKER_00: John R. Puri, I am so glad you exist.
48:18
SPEAKER_00: So glad you exist.
48:20
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
48:22
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
48:22
SPEAKER_00: Strength to your hands.
48:24
SPEAKER_00: I'm Jay Nordlinger doing Q&A.
48:26
SPEAKER_00: We've been listening to Stanford's own John R. Puri.
48:31
SPEAKER_00: I'll see you next time.
48:32
SPEAKER_00: So long.