Latest / Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast / Better Learning, Not Just Better AI | Dan Fitzpatrick

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Better Learning, Not Just Better AI | Dan Fitzpatrick · Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast

0:00
Welcome to Integrate This, your go -to EdTech
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podcast where curiosity meets classroom innovation.
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Join your hosts, David Berner and Jeremy Mikla,
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as we explore the rapidly evolving world of educational
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technology. From game -changing tools to insightful
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conversations with today's top EdTech voices,
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we're here to help educators stay informed, inspired,
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and ready to innovate. So tune in, level up,
0:25
and let's integrate this. Hey, welcome to the
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Integrate This EdTech podcast. I'm David Bernard,
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joined by co -host Jeremy Mikla. And we're super
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excited to have with us today the AI educator,
0:39
Dan Fitzpatrick, just coming hot off of the last
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two days of the Back to School AI Summit 2026,
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which Jeremy and I, we attended virtually and
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got to see a lot of great ideas, especially from
0:53
educators. And there was a common theme there
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of really focused on what educators can do to
1:00
focus on students and Helping them understand
1:04
how to use AI in the best ways. So Dan we want
1:09
to welcome you to the podcast. Thanks for doing
1:10
this Yeah, thanks guys. Really appreciate you
1:13
you having me on and excited to talk to you Yeah,
1:17
um, how are you feeling first of all? Yeah, good.
1:20
Yeah. Yeah, it was we had like you said we had
1:23
the first two days Um, the, the two days of the
1:27
summit, um, yeah, a lot of prep goes into it.
1:30
So, um, it's the third year we've done it now.
1:33
Um, so it's. Yeah. You know what? It's that mixture,
1:36
isn't it? And I get you guys have, have the same
1:39
doing the podcast that you kind of, you kind
1:43
of on high alert, cause you, you're in, you're
1:45
in control and hosting it and all of that, but
1:48
also you're trying to learn and be engaged as
1:51
well at the same time. So I think after it. I
1:54
think it was like three and a half hours each
1:56
day. Um, so it was, yeah, I was, I was ready
1:59
for bed last night. Yeah. But, uh, it's good.
2:02
It's like, uh, you know what, it just kind of
2:05
fills me with, with a lot of energy and, um,
2:09
a lot of hope that we, I suppose this educate
2:13
a community as, as your listeners can probably
2:15
tell I'm, I'm from England. Uh, and across the
2:18
whole summit we had, we had people joining us
2:21
and sharing their, their research, their ideas,
2:25
their experience from, from the UAE, from around
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Europe, uh, the UK, Scotland, um, and then all
2:34
over the United States as well. So it was a great
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kind of global gathering, I thought. And, and
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it kind of, I don't know what you guys thought,
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but I kind of really felt like it doesn't matter
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if where people were in the world, we were all
2:48
going through the same thing in our classrooms.
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We were all trying to grapple with the same issues
2:53
with this technology. So, yeah, I don't know.
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How did you guys find it being on the other side?
3:01
Yeah, I thought it was great. I was kind of taking
3:06
notes from the various present presenters and
3:08
things. And we'll talk about a few of those things,
3:12
too, coming up. But The one thing that I liked
3:17
that you did at the very beginning, because you
3:19
had your keynote on the first day, was how do
3:23
we think with machines without losing the ability
3:25
to think without them? And I think so many people
3:29
are wondering and want an answer to that question.
3:33
So that was a really good way to start it off,
3:37
I felt. And then everything that followed, all
3:40
the different sessions that Folks did throughout
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it. I think kept that through line and it was
3:47
all these different ideas From the presenters
3:51
about how can you go about doing that? You know
3:54
like from Yamira had like the Think AI think
3:59
right like the any kind of goes in with the the
4:03
human in the loop concept a little bit and So
4:05
I really enjoyed that and listening to all the
4:08
different ideas practical ideas for classroom
4:11
teachers Yeah, yeah, I think the that's the the
4:17
kind of golden question isn't it at the moment
4:20
with education and I and anyone who follows this
4:23
whole AI thing the A lot of the research coming
4:29
out. I see a lot of it and I think it's so obvious
4:32
It's I'm like, I can't believe somebody paid
4:34
a lot of money to have this research done to
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tell it's like students used AI did work that
4:41
looked amazing then when they went in to do a
4:44
test or an exam didn't do as well as expected.
4:47
It's like okay we it's kind of obvious and I
4:51
think it and it's not new neither. I mean if
4:55
you if you if you give a tool or to a child and
5:00
said right use that to do the work And it's going
5:03
to do some of the thinking for you or get your
5:05
parents to do some of the work for you or get
5:08
your get your friends to do your your school
5:11
work for you. You're not you're probably not
5:13
going to learn much from that experience. And
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you know what? Shock horror is the same. So and
5:23
Pisa, who released their results around global
5:27
education, just released their kind of world
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rankings. I think it was. two days ago now, and
5:33
kind of came to the same conclusion that a lot
5:36
of students using AI are finding it really difficult
5:39
to improve in their learning. But I think one
5:43
of the really surprising things was that actually
5:48
it wasn't directly consequential to the using
5:53
of the AI. And actually what they found was it's
5:55
how the AI is used. And there was some data in
5:58
there to suggest that when it's used well with
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AI literacy. actually can improve learning. And
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we're in this world, this new world now where
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we're trying to figure that out. Well, how do
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we use it to improve learning without it being
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detrimental to learning? And it's just, it's
6:17
that really thin line that we've got to try and
6:20
walk down. And I suppose you picked it up there
6:23
beautifully that that was what we were trying
6:25
to do with the summit. It tried to go right.
6:27
Well, actually, how do we How do we demonstrate
6:31
maybe that path to follow through through educators,
6:35
real experiences and what they've tried, where
6:38
they failed and where it actually has helped.
6:42
So hopefully it achieved that for the people
6:45
who were who were with us. Yeah, and we have
6:49
kind of we're in the same boat a little bit with
6:51
just the different trainings that we do in the
6:53
schools that we work with, because I felt like
6:56
everything. everything so early on like the last
6:59
couple years was really focused on well just
7:02
what is AI like the teachers just want to know
7:04
what it is how does it impact them and the things
7:07
that they should be aware of for safety and and
7:09
those kind of things but yeah this really gets
7:12
into a lot of conversations that we've been having
7:14
locally too about like well how do you actually
7:17
use it effect effectively with your your pedagogy
7:20
and do you feel like Like that was one of the
7:25
main goals then of that event was to have Whoever
7:29
attended it would be able to walk away with something
7:31
from that to bring back to their classroom and
7:34
and start that process yeah, absolutely and Like
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you guys will know this better than me. I think
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when you when you're with a group of teachers
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you you it's got to be practical like Educators
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have got I've got such busy schedules I think
7:52
if you're going to ask them to commit any time
7:55
away from their main work, then you have to give
8:00
them something that is going to be valuable.
8:03
And that normally means something they can take
8:05
away and use straight away and put to work without
8:10
having to change too much in that moment. Now,
8:13
sometimes things might need to change over the
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medium to long term, of course. But actually,
8:20
A lot of the value is just going to come from
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what can I implement straight away? So when we
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work, because we're very lucky when we do this,
8:29
we have hundreds of teachers who all submit their
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ideas for sessions and what they're doing. And
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it means that we can really, really focus in
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on what's going to be a good variety across the
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two days. And what can we pick that's going to
8:47
actually be really, really practical. And we
8:50
were trying to get that as well as some thought
8:52
pieces in there as well, just for that variety.
8:55
So, yeah, hopefully we managed to get the balance
8:58
where teachers could now today, the day after
9:02
be implementing some of this stuff. And I think
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to me that that's the point that really struck
9:07
home is, you know, the sessions that you had
9:10
were about 15 to 20 minutes tops. So like if
9:14
you're going to get to that point, yes, you want
9:16
to share a big idea and you want to leave them
9:18
with something to think about. But like you said,
9:20
it's got to be something practical that I can
9:23
bring and I can start doing tomorrow. And in
9:25
that I felt with many of the different sessions
9:27
that that came through really loud and clear.
9:30
It's really difficult to do that. And as somebody
9:32
who likes to talk, I like if I'm, if I'm at an
9:37
event and, and I'm doing a keynote, sometimes
9:40
the, the, an organizer might say, well, you just
9:44
take as long as you want. I'm like, please don't
9:46
say that. Cause I will just talk for hours and
9:49
hours and hours. And it is really difficult to
9:52
get. In fact, I think it's harder to try and
9:54
get what you want to say and what you. demonstrations,
9:58
especially especially in a practical session
10:00
within 15 minutes. Yeah, I was kind of, I suppose,
10:04
inspired a bit by there's a there's a there's
10:08
a group I'm not sure I've I work quite a bit
10:11
in the United States, but I haven't I've never
10:12
seen it in the US. But in the UK is it's quite
10:16
popular to have what's called teach meets, they
10:19
call it I suppose it's a bit like a TED, like
10:23
a series of TED talks, but for for teachers,
10:25
and we have we have them regionally so teachers
10:29
will get together and they will actually just
10:32
have 10 minutes and the whole idea is it's for
10:35
an hour and then six teachers 10 minutes each
10:39
will get up and just demonstrate one small thing
10:41
from their classroom that another teacher can
10:45
take away. So yeah try to try to make it as much
10:48
like that as possible where it's yeah it's just
10:53
one one or two things that they can take away.
10:56
Yeah, and I think I think we achieved that well,
10:58
I mean I made it as the host it made it I didn't
11:01
know whether I was coming or going sometimes
11:02
in terms of like right. Well, who's next? I had
11:04
my schedule. All right, right I need to jump
11:07
in now and introduce the next person and just
11:09
trying to keep everyone on track as well as naturally
11:13
I think especially when someone's come on and
11:15
and I've never really met them before maybe only
11:17
spoke to them through an email and and you want
11:19
to have a conversation with them and you want
11:22
it but but in that format you just there's no
11:24
time you've just got to be quick hello, then
11:26
goodbye, next person. But I think that makes
11:29
it a bit more engaging for the for the for people
11:32
who are watching and taking part at home. Hopefully
11:36
anyway. Speaking of not having met people beforehand,
11:40
you know, like we just kind of jumped into this
11:43
today. But like, let's kind of back up here and
11:46
let's give let's give people a little bit of
11:48
an idea because you're not just about a back
11:51
to school AI summit, you know, the AI educator
11:53
is definitely much more. And so is Dan Fitzpatrick.
11:56
So kind of give us a little bit of the rundown
11:58
of the who is the guy behind the things that
12:03
people see get posted all over the place today.
12:05
Oh, yeah. And thanks so much for giving me the
12:08
opportunity to do this. Yeah. So, yeah, like
12:13
I said, I'm from the UK. I'm from England. And
12:16
I was a high school teacher. So I trained, we
12:20
were saying just before, I trained in school
12:23
in Manchester in the United Kingdom, famous for
12:29
bands like Oasis and kind of all of that genre
12:33
of British music. And I, yeah, I very early on,
12:38
in fact, as I was training to be a teacher, I
12:40
remember being brought, every Friday we would
12:44
do a training session. And I remember someone
12:48
talking about Google Drive within the training
12:50
session. And I'd never really come across before.
12:53
So I went away and I started playing around with
12:55
it. And I just thought, I mean, it's basic cloud
12:58
technology. But it just blew my mind because
13:01
I thought, I can put resources in here for my
13:04
students and they could access them from their
13:07
cell phones, from their computer at any time
13:10
of day. And so I remember going back to my, what
13:14
we call in my department, so the few teachers
13:18
in my department and saying, right, we should
13:20
do this. And I remember my head of department
13:23
at the time, who a great guy called Nick, he's
13:27
a principal now. We went on our Christmas vacation
13:32
and when we got back, he'd moved all of our resources
13:36
into a Google drive. Um, and he, he got really
13:39
passionate about it. And then, um, uh, guy called
13:42
Ben, who was also in a department, he got passionate
13:45
about it. And the three of us kind of just started
13:47
to get really, really excited about the potential
13:50
of, of, of these tools and education. And we,
13:56
we kind of started telling, just telling other
13:58
teachers around the school. So we would put on
14:00
like breakfast sessions and say, I come in 15
14:03
minutes early and we'll show you like a new tool
14:06
you can use. very organic grassroots. And like
14:10
I was saying to you guys earlier, we, we, myself
14:13
and Ben decided to start a podcast off the back
14:15
of that, because we thought, well, actually,
14:17
it'd be great to talk to people outside of our
14:20
own school. And, and very, it was interesting,
14:22
very quickly, that podcast went from a turn from
14:26
an ed tech podcast to a, to a more feature of
14:29
education podcast, because I think anyone who's
14:33
who gets into edge tech and how technology can
14:37
help our students and our teachers very quickly
14:40
starts getting into that realm of, well, well,
14:43
how, how is this going to impact education in
14:46
the long term? And you start getting into the
14:48
future of education stuff. And so, yeah, it was,
14:53
it's a podcast called edgy futurist, which is
14:54
still out there. I, I stepped away from it a
14:57
few years ago, but Ben's still doing it. It's
15:00
a great podcast and I yeah, I kind of the the
15:06
doing the podcast every single week really allowed
15:09
me to speak with some amazing people from around
15:13
the world, which really would inspire me every
15:16
single week. And that kind of fed back into my
15:18
career. And I found that I was becoming I was
15:22
starting to implement more of these ideas in
15:24
my classroom in my wider school. And that led
15:27
me to wanting to do more leadership things within
15:30
my school. And and then And yeah, eventually
15:34
I started working for a college. Well, I became
15:38
an assistant principal in my school, and then
15:45
moved into college education, where I was responsible
15:47
for digital strategy. And it was there that I
15:49
first came across an early version of what would
15:53
become ChatGPT. So ChatGPT hadn't come out at
15:55
that point. And I was doing a lot of, it was
15:59
a non -teaching role, and my idea was, The whole
16:02
point was I was writing a strategy. And so I
16:05
thought, you know what, I need to go into local
16:06
businesses and local industry and just see what's
16:10
happening with technology there so that I could
16:12
bring some of it back into our college system.
16:16
And so it was there that I, like I said, I came
16:19
across this technology. We started to look at
16:21
how do we implement it. And I remember kind of
16:24
thinking, because a lot of our courses were vocational
16:28
style courses. And so a lot of our a lot of our
16:31
lecturers and teachers were having to grade and
16:35
read coursework, lots and lots of writing and
16:39
portfolio work from students. And I thought,
16:42
wouldn't it be amazing if this technology could
16:44
just identify key terms, just so the teacher
16:50
could very quickly go to a part of their work
16:53
and based on a key term that they've put in there
16:56
and therefore based on the rubric. see how, see
17:00
if they'd mentioned what they needed to mention.
17:02
I thought if it could do that, that's amazing.
17:04
And then end of November, 2022, the chat GPT
17:08
was released. And I suppose like most people
17:11
around the world, it blew my mind. And I thought,
17:14
going from what I'd witnessed this technology
17:15
being able to do to what they released that day.
17:19
This is, this is going to change the world. This
17:22
is like the fact of just having a conversation
17:25
with a, with a computer in this way. And so Yeah,
17:29
I very quickly became passionate about it. I
17:31
remember back in December, 2022, not, not very
17:35
many people in the education world were talking
17:37
about it. And so I started to post things online
17:39
and try to, try to, um, in fact, I remember just
17:43
having my, my cell phone and pressing screen
17:47
record and go into the chat GPT website because
17:50
they didn't have an app then just on the browser
17:52
and, and just typing in basic things. I think
17:55
things that we think are basic now, like write
17:57
me a lesson plan. and then just recording that
18:01
and posting it online. And I suppose in those
18:05
early months, because not many people had witnessed
18:08
that technology, it kind of, I got invited to
18:13
speak at events and invited to, I got offered
18:16
a book deal around that time. And I wrote our
18:19
first book, The AI Classroom in early 2023. And
18:24
yeah, I suppose I got to I get to now full -time
18:30
help teachers, leaders, a few governments as
18:35
well, and kind of get to grips with this technology.
18:39
And we've just brought our fifth book out now,
18:41
which is the Educators AI Guide 2027, which is
18:46
everything I just said about the summit. It's
18:48
that in a book. So I haven't wrote to, I literally
18:53
wrote the introduction and the afterword. And
18:56
then each chapter is written by an educator,
19:00
many of whom were presenting at the summit as
19:03
well. Yeah, it's Heather Brown who helped visualize
19:09
it and edit it has done such a good job. It's
19:12
almost like a field guide. You can write in it.
19:15
There's note sections. Yeah, so really proud
19:18
of that. But yeah, I suppose that's me really.
19:22
Yeah. I'm gonna ask if you remember one other
19:25
thing you've written. In June of 2024, you wrote
19:31
an article for online Forbes. It was called five
19:35
custom chat GPTs for innovative parents. The
19:40
number three one that you listed in there was
19:44
a historical adventure guide. Rob that that I
19:48
created and then you shared out in your article
19:52
and it was It was a custom GPT where it's kind
19:56
of choose your own adventure style through a
19:59
period of history and it takes the student becomes
20:02
the central character in Navigating through and
20:05
making choices, you know based on the the time
20:09
period of history that they were learning fantastic
20:12
And so did you respond to like a LinkedIn post
20:15
or something like that? I think that's, I think
20:17
that's how I connected to it. And then you added
20:20
it to that article. So I thought that was really
20:22
cool. Oh, thanks. Well, thanks so much for doing
20:24
that. And yeah, I'm really happy to feature you
20:27
there. Um, and yeah, I really try to, I suppose
20:30
within the book, cause we, we've got, I suppose
20:33
there's myself and Julia who work on the AI educator,
20:38
um, which is kind of the art. our small company
20:43
really and we what like our main mission is to
20:46
is to try and share what's going on out there
20:48
and hopefully that comes across in the events
20:51
the books the the articles we write because we
20:54
very I suppose I started off sharing what I was
20:57
doing but very quickly realized actually that
21:01
I'm putting myself as a major bottleneck there
21:05
like if it's just about what I'm doing so we
21:08
very quickly realize actually, if we want to,
21:11
if we want to help educators, we have to share
21:14
what everyone's doing. And so we, everything
21:17
we do, we try to make that a big part of it.
21:20
So yeah, thanks for, for allowing, allowing us
21:24
to share it. Yeah. And I actually really love
21:29
the idea of the, like just having teachers share.
21:32
Cause even in, I think a lot of times, you know,
21:35
with RPD, it can so often be like, there's an
21:40
expert at the front and we're here to learn from
21:42
just that expert. And meanwhile, if you were
21:45
to survey the staff at just any given school,
21:48
you're going to find that like, well, there's
21:50
already people using AI tools and they're using
21:52
them in really interesting ways. And you'd be
21:56
surprised that it just hasn't been shared out
21:58
even broadly to their own other colleagues, right?
22:01
Like that's, and so I think even with that type
22:04
of thing and like with the back to school AI
22:07
summit, I think it just really highlights that
22:09
and helps push a lot of those voices forward
22:11
where teachers can share out what they're already
22:14
doing. And then that's where people pick up on
22:18
new ideas. For me, especially just attending,
22:23
I think it was Michael Hernandez was speaking
22:26
during the summit. And I was having this thought
22:29
about how interesting it was, the stuff that
22:31
he was covering with the assessments. And at
22:33
that moment, Believe it or not Jeremy actually
22:36
text me and he's like this Michael Hernandez
22:38
guy is great. And I was like, yeah I'm watching
22:40
it too. I'm like, this is awesome Because like
22:44
some of the obviously you have to rely on other
22:46
people to get new and fresh ideas, right and
22:49
so can you can you speak to that a little bit
22:52
about just the maybe even getting into a little
22:54
bit behind the scenes of how you how you selected
22:57
the folks that were part of the Summit and what
23:01
you were aiming for with their different contributions
23:04
Yeah, I think we're very conscious that K -12
23:10
education means so many different things in terms
23:14
of early years learning, high school, special
23:18
education. And so it was trying to give such
23:24
a diversity. So a lot of what we did, in fact,
23:29
AI was great for this. So when we get gets all
23:33
these submissions for sessions and so on. We
23:38
come in through a Google Form, we convert it
23:41
into a Google Sheet, download it as an Excel
23:48
and then upload it to my AI and just get it to
23:51
categorize them and go, right, which sessions
23:55
would appeal to different kind of professions
24:01
within K -12, leadership, classroom teachers,
24:04
support, tech instructors, all it and just kind
24:08
of get an idea. And what's really important was
24:10
as well as the diversity of the presenters. So
24:14
we want there to be a diversity of countries,
24:18
first and foremost, because we know where the
24:21
audience comes from. We want those audiences
24:22
to be represented. And then in terms of gender,
24:25
in terms of race and so on. So we really wanted
24:29
to be So we really have a high kind of standard
24:34
for the diversity when we go in there based on
24:37
who the person who's presenting is, where they're
24:39
from, but then the content and who that's going
24:40
to appeal to. So yeah, AI is amazing at categorizing
24:46
large sums of data, which is what it helped us
24:49
do there, and then give us insights and then
24:51
just kind of went through and thought, right,
24:53
actually. Sometimes the presenters, I know them.
24:57
And so I know they're going to be really good,
24:58
which helps. That does bring in a bit of my bias.
25:02
So I've got to keep that in check as well and
25:04
go, right. Well, actually, in fact, this year,
25:09
I think most of the presenters I've never actually
25:12
met before, which was really nice to do actually,
25:16
because sometimes it is easier to go with the
25:19
people you can trust and go, actually, I know
25:21
that person is really good at presenting. Let's
25:24
pick them. But yeah, in fact, I'm trying to think.
25:30
Jen Womble, who led the keynote on the second
25:32
day. I know Jen. Sabah Quidway, who joined in
25:39
day one. I know Sabah. And Matthew Weems, who
25:44
joined the vibe panel on day two about vibe code.
25:47
And I know Matthew. but most of the people I'd
25:50
never met in real life before and never really
25:53
spoke to before. So it was a real learning curve
25:57
for me to see their ideas kind of firsthand as
26:01
well as you were seeing them on screen and learning
26:04
from them as you were. So yeah, I suppose to
26:09
answer your question, it's diversity, I guess.
26:14
And also not just to, I think sometimes within
26:17
the PD world of it's the same voices over and
26:21
over again, which is not, I mean, there's a reason
26:25
why it's the same voices because they tend to
26:26
be very good at what they do. And, and, but it's
26:31
also, it's also going, I suppose you alluded
26:34
to this before when you were saying, Early on,
26:37
people just wanted to know what this technology
26:39
was. Now they want something deeper. They want
26:41
something a bit more meaningful and practical
26:43
and pedagogical. And I think have it been the
26:46
third year of the summit, I think that was in
26:48
my mind as well that actually, how do we go deeper?
26:53
How do we? And I think a lot of that comes with
26:56
the type of person and the the people whose voices
27:02
we haven't heard before. So yeah, so kind of
27:05
all of that was going on in the whole process,
27:07
really. So difficult to get a balance, but we,
27:10
yeah, we tried. Yeah. And it turned out really
27:14
well. And, you know, I was thinking there, there's,
27:18
from what you said of going from just learning
27:22
about what AI is, it seems like the progression
27:26
here, what everybody's trying to do is really
27:28
like bring up teacher AI literacy so that teachers
27:33
first understand what these things are, right?
27:36
And then get a kind of like a baseline of how
27:40
do you use them? How do you create content? And
27:43
then now, you know, we're really starting these
27:47
conversations about the best ways for students
27:50
to get involved and use these tools. And not
27:54
only that, but also another big theme that was
27:58
in there was that students have a voice at the
28:01
table as well and that they're part of this process
28:04
and want to they want to know and learn just
28:07
as much as we do and we shouldn't be like I know
28:10
we have to be careful and there's a lot of safety
28:12
concerns and things but as far as like if you
28:15
can take them through a guided process and you
28:18
have some safeguards in place you shouldn't try
28:22
to gatekeep everything and keep them from exploring
28:25
and learning. Can you talk a little bit about
28:29
What what it's how important students are in
28:32
this process, especially as all the policies
28:36
and things get made. I think it was very encouraging
28:39
to see you know the students that had gone and
28:42
we had even a couple from Minnesota. I believe
28:45
it was from Saint Cloud Jeremy, right? But they
28:49
went to the Capitol and introduced like that.
28:52
They had a part in that process of what a bill
28:54
should look like for. AI, right? How important
28:58
is students to you and their role in this process?
29:02
Yeah, I think they're central to this really.
29:07
I suppose the whole point of everything we do
29:10
as an educator is so that our students have the
29:14
highest chances of success when they're with
29:16
us and when they leave us. Yeah, it was quite
29:22
inspiring to hear. I think it was Brian on the
29:25
Vibe panel that we had talking about how, given
29:31
Vibe coding tools to the girls in his class,
29:34
how much it had empowered them. And he was talking
29:37
about how they took their ideas and what they'd
29:40
built and they took it to Washington DC. Some
29:44
of the big companies, someone from OpenAI had
29:47
come and being in, they presented to this guy
29:53
and it was really inspiring because you think
29:57
without that, without that ability, without those
30:02
AI tools even, and obviously with Brian being
30:05
their teacher and being an inspiring person within
30:09
that process, they would not have had that opportunity.
30:12
And so I think at the minute, especially the
30:15
last few weeks, We're in a climate, and this
30:18
happens with technology, it ebbs and flows, but
30:21
we're in a climate where we're banning a lot
30:24
of the, like New York City, LA, I think Chicago's
30:29
about to as well, start to ban a lot of this
30:32
technology because of the dangers. And there
30:34
are dangers, let's not diminish that. But also
30:41
we're also seeing this technology empowering
30:44
students. We're also seeing this technology give
30:46
students opportunities they could never have
30:48
imagined just a few months ago. So that's what
30:54
really interests me, the fact that this technology
30:57
is changing lives. And I suppose as educators,
31:02
as people who might lead schools, I think it's
31:06
not up to us. to remove the technology from the
31:09
students. It's up to us to allow the students
31:12
to use the technology in a safe way. Now that
31:16
is really difficult and it's why New York City's
31:19
put a moratorium on this because they're trying
31:20
to figure out well actually we don't know how
31:22
to do that. We don't know how to do that in a
31:24
safe way yet. So give us a year to try and figure
31:26
it out. Completely understand that. But the one
31:31
thing I would say that is they had better quite
31:33
quickly figure it out. Because every year that
31:36
passes that they're not figuring it out Their
31:39
students are going to be missing out on the on
31:41
the powerful side of the technology on the the
31:44
life change inside of the technology So yeah,
31:48
I think I think it's it's at the heart of everything
31:50
Think an important thing here too is to remind
31:53
I like to remind educators when I get in front
31:56
of them that this this isn't the first time that
31:58
We as educators have had to adjust the way that
32:02
we teach based upon an emerging technology comes
32:05
out and I was actually Lying in bed last night
32:08
not able to sleep thinking about these and some
32:11
examples like I could just imagine You know Socrates
32:16
standing up and giving one of his big lectures
32:19
here and there's Plato sitting down and I could
32:22
just picture like Plato writing down everything
32:25
that Socrates says and Socrates getting mad because
32:28
he's no you you can't write things down then
32:30
you give up the memory because you're transferring
32:33
your memory to to some sort of written form and
32:36
that's not real learning because you're letting
32:38
you're letting that do your remembering for you
32:41
and then you know like get to like Gutenberg
32:45
in the printing press, I can just imagine. priests,
32:48
you know, getting really upset that, what do
32:51
you mean? I, you know, someone, you know, we
32:53
can just give bibles to anybody and they're going
32:56
to start interpreting what, you know, religion
32:58
means. And they're like, that's my job. You're
33:01
taking my job away from me. Um, or, you know,
33:04
you go to a math teacher after the calculators
33:06
become widely available. And all of a sudden
33:09
I can't teach math anymore because these kids
33:12
have these calculators and they're, you know,
33:14
they're not learning the way that I remember
33:17
learning in the way that I think they should
33:19
because you know now we've got AI and it's just
33:23
to me what seems like what's different from those
33:26
examples is the acceleration of the development
33:31
and the continued development of AI means that
33:34
we have to be ready to adjust even quicker to
33:37
the newest latest feature of it that's coming
33:40
out. I think global communication as well I think
33:45
Because I honestly think that some of the things
33:47
that you've mentioned, especially the press,
33:50
the printing press and. And I know this and other
33:54
such examples on were probably bigger. Now, I
34:00
don't know if that's going to be the same in
34:01
the long term, especially with how powerful I
34:03
could potentially get. But, yeah, the printing
34:05
press, I think, in my opinion, it was a was a
34:09
bigger. change than what we've seen so far with
34:12
AI. The only problem, but the only thing is it
34:16
took a while for it to spread and for the technology
34:20
to be democratized. Whereas with AI, because
34:26
we live in a very much connected world, it literally
34:30
within a day goes everywhere. Was it like chat
34:34
GPT and was the fastest growing company in the,
34:38
in, in the world of for user base. I think it
34:41
got to like a hundred million users within, within
34:44
the first 30 days, I think it was. So I think
34:47
that's the, that's, that's the difference that,
34:51
and then because of that, I suppose expectations
34:54
form. So you get, you get a school in Southern
34:58
America somewhere who now literally knows about
35:02
something that's happened in Silicon Valley half
35:04
an hour later. And then expectations form about,
35:07
well, are we using that tool? Are we doing that?
35:10
And then I think once you get into that position,
35:13
you get rash reactions from the people who set
35:17
the policy, the people who lead. And yeah, I
35:22
think it just causes a bit of a storm, whereas
35:24
that wouldn't have happened before. But I think
35:26
you're right. I think this is what we do as humans.
35:29
I wrote a book a couple of years ago called Infinite
35:33
Education. In one of the chapters, I I went back
35:36
to this formation of agriculture. Agriculture
35:41
and farming completely changed us as a species.
35:46
We were in small tribes and kept to ourselves
35:50
for fear of fighting and dying up until that
35:54
point. Then all of a sudden, if we wanted to
35:58
have the benefits of farming, we had to live
36:01
together. We had to learn to get on. And then
36:04
all of a sudden, we started to think, well, what
36:08
do we do with our day if we're not hunting? Because
36:10
these cows are just in the field now. We don't
36:12
have to hunt them. And so people started to learn.
36:16
And education and politics comes from that. And
36:18
all of civilization comes from that one technological
36:23
process. That's just what we've done. We get
36:28
comfortable as a species. And then someone goes,
36:30
I've got another idea. And then all of a sudden
36:32
we're in turmoil again. And obviously we've never
36:38
experienced that before because they weren't
36:41
within our generation. But I think AI is the
36:46
technology of our generation and probably the
36:49
next few generations. It actually probably isn't
36:51
the only technology when you see some of the
36:53
other things that are on the horizon. Fusion
36:55
energy and quantum computing. I think I think
37:00
it's getting faster like you say Which I think
37:03
then you know bring back to the book that just
37:06
came out the AI educators guide for 2027 is that
37:11
the year for coming up? Yeah, is this I think
37:15
is this the second or the third year in a row
37:17
that you've put this out and that like To me,
37:21
that just speaks to like we have to put out a
37:23
new one every year, people, because look at how
37:26
much this is changing and the things that we're
37:29
learning to do with it. And I think, like you
37:31
said, too, moving beyond just being curious about
37:34
AI to doing something that is actually going
37:38
to be beneficial to, you know, accelerating learning
37:41
or to, you know, find different ways to engage
37:45
students in more meaningful. Um projects or maybe
37:49
even meaningful ways that they can demonstrate
37:51
what they know and apply it in You know in ways
37:55
that not just improve their lives, but maybe
37:57
their school or their community yeah, yeah, no,
38:00
yeah, I agree and Yeah, I think the whole premise
38:03
is because I think some people say well How do
38:05
you know what's going to happen in 2027 and you've
38:08
wrote a book called 2027. Well, look the whole
38:11
premise is That there are educators doing things
38:14
right now that will inspire us into 2027 and
38:20
that and that because the innovators inspire
38:24
us for the next year almost. And even there's
38:29
still some stuff in the first book from three
38:31
years ago that probably the majority of schools
38:34
and educators still haven't caught on to or still
38:36
aren't doing yet. But yeah, that's the whole
38:39
idea behind it that there are pockets of teachers
38:43
out there who are experimenting right now and
38:47
learning lessons that mean that our next year
38:51
ahead can be, we can learn from them. So yeah,
38:56
and it is, I always, for the past three years,
39:00
I've written a chapter at the end, the afterword,
39:03
where I kind of try to give a, not a prediction,
39:07
but just a feeling of what might come over the
39:10
next 12 months. Again, not crystal ball stuff
39:14
where it's based on a lot of research, trend
39:18
research, and based on, in fact, if you look
39:20
at that chapter in the back of the book, I think
39:22
there are more references and citations than
39:24
actual words in the chapter because I really
39:27
wanted to do a lot of research and go, right,
39:30
this is where the best minds and the best research
39:34
organizations in the world think is going to
39:36
happen over the next 12 months. And obviously
39:39
it won't be 100 % accurate, but it's just to
39:41
try and give people an idea of what these companies
39:45
are working on and what we might have in our
39:48
hands. But I think earlier this year, I knew
39:51
AI agents were going to be a thing, were going
39:56
to be big, but I didn't predict, I don't know
39:59
how you guys felt about this, but I didn't predict
40:02
just how fast... the progress of AI agents would
40:05
be in even just in January of this year. And
40:10
some of the things that were happening. And then
40:12
fast forward to where we are today. I mean, I
40:15
some of the things you can do with AI agents
40:17
and it's just incredible. But I do think that
40:22
it's really, really, I've got to keep myself
40:24
in check sometimes, because it's easy to be in
40:26
a bubble, especially on social media of thinking.
40:29
Well, everybody knows about the most technically
40:32
advanced parts of this technology now, and actually
40:35
99 .9 % of educators are still trying to grapple
40:41
with what is this technology? How can it help
40:44
me give me a practical tip or a tool? So the
40:48
book tries to bring it back. It does kind of
40:52
have the more aspirational side of the book,
40:56
but the majority of it is just He is a practice
41:00
that can help you right now And so it's risen
41:04
to the top of the the Amazon charts and at least
41:07
for education I believe I heard you say during
41:09
the summit. Yeah Yeah, yeah in such a short amount
41:13
of time just amazing and and I also heard you
41:16
mention that the book is available at cost Um,
41:19
you know, it does cost money to print a book.
41:22
Um, you know, kudos to you for making it approachable
41:26
to students and or teachers. Um, and that wasn't
41:30
just to be, that wasn't a hundred percent planned.
41:32
It was, uh, cause, cause obviously we put a lot
41:34
of, we put a lot of hours and a lot of work into
41:37
the book. So to, and you don't, you don't, nobody
41:40
really makes a massive profit off books anyway.
41:44
But even if we were to just earn like one or
41:46
two dollars per book, it would be nice just to.
41:48
for the resource that we've put into it. But
41:51
when we, when I uploaded it to the, the Amazon's
41:55
got its own publishing company called KDP. And
41:57
when I uploaded it and looked at the estimated
42:00
cost of the, just to print this, um, it was already
42:05
at kind of like $29. And because it's 400 pages,
42:10
it's a massive thick book and it's all color
42:13
because I wanted it to be a real, I wanted it
42:16
to kind of have that kind of, you know, like
42:17
that textbook feel to it, like a nice glossy,
42:20
colorful textbook that engages you. Yeah, it
42:26
just costs. So I thought there's no way I can
42:29
add a margin on here for any profit, never mind
42:32
just one dollar per book, because we wanted it
42:35
to be as affordable as possible. So yeah, that's
42:39
what we've tried to do. Yeah, and so David does
42:44
a book study with his tech integrationist each
42:47
year and he usually invites me to participate
42:49
in it So why should David choose this book? Your
42:53
long book study. Yeah Yeah, well, I think you
42:57
put me on the spot there, but I let me You know
43:01
what I think it What's probably perfect for a
43:04
year -long study is the fact that this isn't
43:06
just a book that you jump into and and learn
43:10
something and then put the book down and then
43:12
move on to another book. The whole thing is it's
43:15
designed for you to carry around for the year
43:18
and you'll see after, I don't know if people
43:23
can see this, but after each chapter and even
43:26
within some of the chapters, there are tasks
43:30
to go off and do and there are questions that
43:33
need to be answered. Now a lot of those questions
43:35
and tasks you can't just read the book and answer
43:38
them there. And then you've got to go off and
43:40
try it out. You've got to go off and experiment
43:42
with it. And then we've put in the kind of the
43:46
gutter of each page is a note section for you
43:48
to then make notes on on what you're doing about
43:53
it. And is it working? Is it not working? And
43:56
for you to to to customize some of the tips in
44:00
the book and some of the case studies to fit
44:02
your circumstances. So it really is designed
44:05
to be a book that is supposed to be open and
44:08
shut continually throughout the year and for
44:11
you to be writing in and constantly. Yeah, so
44:16
I think as a book long as a year long book study,
44:19
I think to be able to do that and to because
44:23
you're not just going to be commenting on the
44:25
book, you're going to be commenting on. In fact,
44:27
you probably commenting on the comment on the
44:29
book for the first few sessions. And then hopefully,
44:33
if the book does its job properly, the rest of
44:35
the year, it will be commenting on what you're
44:39
doing in your classroom or what you're doing
44:40
in your school. And if that happens and the book's
44:45
achieved what it's supposed to achieve, because
44:47
it's about getting people to act. It's about
44:50
getting people to put this into practice. So
44:53
yeah, I mean, obviously, there's so many other
44:55
good books out there. But yeah, I think it could
45:01
be could be quite good for that type of year
45:04
-long book study. Yeah, and I really like that
45:09
it's kind of in that companion style where they're
45:12
essentially engaging in professional development
45:14
as you go through it and you try different things.
45:17
It's not like you're just going to pick it up.
45:18
You don't necessarily have to read from page
45:20
one on, right? You can find things that are going
45:25
to fit what you're trying to do or maybe your
45:27
comfort level. and then try those things out.
45:30
Because I think one of the biggest things for
45:31
us on the PD side is like, what is actually going
45:37
to be sustainable? And I think having a companion
45:40
like that is extremely helpful for teachers because
45:44
we all know how busy they are. when the year
45:49
hits and, you know, and so you lose sight of
45:51
a lot of things. And I really like the idea of
45:54
just try, you know, one thing here and there.
45:57
And if they can gain some of those new ideas
46:00
from the book, I think that's great. Yeah. And
46:03
there'll be like one chapter, someone might read
46:08
and think, actually, that's not for me, or I've
46:09
already kind of done something like that. And
46:12
so you have people within your book study who
46:17
who will go, actually I focused on this chapter
46:19
and I'm going to do something based on this chapter
46:22
for a few months. And then you'll have someone
46:24
else do a bit using another chapter. And I think
46:26
that's where the beauty of it comes in. And also
46:30
it comes, what we did as well, we created a Google
46:33
gem and a Gemini notebook based on the book.
46:37
So if somebody actually wants to chat with the
46:41
book, they can. all you have to do is scan the
46:45
QR code in the book. It'll take them to a Google
46:47
gem. And then they can actually talk through
46:51
maybe an idea they've got for their classroom,
46:54
or maybe they want to achieve something with
46:57
that class this year. And then the gem will talk
47:01
back to them and say, well, actually, in chapter
47:04
three of the book, there might be something really
47:06
helpful for you here on chapter and then also
47:08
chapter five as well. So you can I know that's
47:13
not anything new, but it's nice to have that
47:15
ability to actually have the book talk back to
47:18
you. And for me, one of the most useful use cases
47:24
I find for AI is actually being able to not just
47:30
consume content, but actually to bring my problem
47:35
or my issue to a bit of content. So for example,
47:39
sometimes I, when I'm talking about something
47:40
like Gemini notebook, I'll always, I always say,
47:44
I love to collect knowledge. I use Gemini notebooks
47:46
to connect knowledge. So like, for example, I've
47:49
got a leadership notebook and whenever I come
47:51
across anything about educational leadership,
47:54
whether it be a podcast, a YouTube video, a blog,
47:57
um, I now don't bookmark it or add it to a, to
48:01
a list in YouTube. I'll just put it straight
48:03
into my notebook LM that's based on leadership.
48:06
And then. when I'm maybe a week later, I'm thinking
48:10
I'm, I wonder what my collected knowledge base
48:15
there says about, I don't know, maybe coaching.
48:19
And then I can come to that content and say,
48:22
can you give me some pointers on coaching? And,
48:25
and then it's using the content to figure out
48:29
what I need in that moment. And so I really wanted
48:32
the book to work like that as well so that you're
48:35
not having to read like you say, from front cover
48:38
to back. And maybe something along the way will
48:42
jump out at you and maybe something will inspire
48:44
you. Actually, you can come straight away to
48:48
the book with a problem you're working on or
48:50
a pedagogical issue you're working on or whatever
48:54
it might be. And then you can use the Gemini
48:58
gem or the Gemini notebook to get you where you
49:02
need to be in the book straight away. And then
49:04
hopefully you'll jump into the book and it'll
49:06
take you into different parts of it and you can
49:10
explore the book in that way as well. But yeah,
49:13
it was really important to me that the book acted
49:16
as a companion in that way as well. Great. Well,
49:24
Dan, we really appreciate all the insights and
49:26
you taking the time with us. We want to do one
49:28
last thing with you if you can. And that's our
49:31
lightning round. We love to do this with our
49:33
guests just so that we can get to know them a
49:35
little bit more. And sometimes the questions
49:37
are still related to. Education and and in this
49:41
case AI but there's other personal ones on there,
49:44
too So I'm gonna kick things off you can these
49:46
can be one -word responses if you want or they
49:48
can be as long as you would like Okay, so I'm
49:52
not prepared for this at all. So yeah, you're
49:55
gonna get raw answers here even better so What
49:59
is your favorite personal use of AI? My favorite
50:03
personal use at the moment it is it's gonna sound
50:07
really nerdy, but I've I've created a team of
50:10
AI agents within Claude, which all have separate
50:14
jobs. So one of them sifts through my email.
50:17
One of them briefs me on the latest AI news from
50:21
the day. One of them checks for trending content
50:27
online so that when I'm producing content, we
50:29
can try and make it as accessible to as many
50:33
people as possible. bring reports back to me
50:37
every day. I've got an AI agent that makes decisions
50:41
within one that just watches the other agents
50:44
and is always asking them, is this ambitious
50:47
enough? It sounds really nerdy, but you can do
50:51
that with an AI like Claude now. So yeah, I've
50:55
got my own dashboard and I speak to my agents
50:58
every day. So yeah, that's my own personal...
51:01
I've got many of them, but that's probably...
51:03
They, the one that's impressed me the most at
51:05
the moment. So maybe you have an AI agent for
51:09
this too. I'm not exactly sure, but where's the
51:12
best place to eat in Northern England? Like do
51:15
you have an AI agent that picks it for you? Do
51:17
you have, you're just like, Nope, this is, this
51:19
is where I'm going. Oh, it's a really difficult
51:22
question. I mean, it's, it's not known as a culinary
51:25
hotspot in the world. Let's be honest. Um, so
51:29
yeah, I think, um, Just local to where I am.
51:35
There's a really nice restaurant just out into
51:40
the cut, like a 10 minute drive into the countryside.
51:43
And it's my kids' birthdays. They're six and
51:48
seven and their birthdays are like 10 days apart.
51:51
So on Saturday, we had taken the family to this
51:54
place to have a nice meal for their birthday.
51:58
So yeah, it's just kind of like British. pub
52:01
style food, but does it really well, like fish
52:04
and chips. Yeah. A shepherd's pie. Like, yeah,
52:10
yeah. But it does it really well. So for me,
52:12
that's, that's one of my favorite places to go
52:14
at the moment. All right. What is one word you
52:19
want associated with your name in the education
52:21
space? Wow. I was going to say collaborator,
52:31
but I think maybe amplifier. Somebody who's kind
52:35
of amplified the voices of others. I never take
52:42
for granted the fact that I get to do this job.
52:47
And the fact that I'm not in a classroom anymore
52:50
because I'm doing this job means that I really
52:57
want to amplify the voices of those who are still
53:01
kind of in the classroom and still doing the
53:05
core of our work as a collective faculty. So
53:11
yeah, probably amplify it. So Dan, you've had
53:15
a chance to travel extensively around the world,
53:19
including the United States. What's a place in
53:21
the US that has really kind of just stuck with
53:24
you? You're going to go back there sometime.
53:26
You were there. You were there to deliver a message,
53:29
a keynote, a conference. And you're just like,
53:31
if I only had the time to go back, that's where
53:33
I'd want to go again. It's so difficult. You
53:40
know, I love I love the USA. I absolutely love
53:43
it. As I didn't come to the USA for the first
53:48
time until I was in my 20s. And I as I suppose
53:51
anybody around the world, I grew up. Seeing the
53:54
USA on TV every single day. I You know what?
53:58
It doesn't matter where I am in the USA I almost
54:01
feel a little bit starstruck by the by just the
54:05
place like it might I don't know if it sounds
54:07
silly to to you guys from the US but even just
54:10
seeing like the yellow school buses and like
54:13
I'm just like For the first 20 years of my life.
54:16
I'd only ever seen that on TV So I still even
54:20
even though I'm in the USA a lot. I still just
54:24
think this is amazing. You know what, one of
54:28
my favorite places in the world is New York City
54:30
and that sounds so predictable and I know divides
54:33
a lot of people, but again, probably for the
54:36
same reason, I love being in New York. Whenever
54:37
I'm asked to keynote in New York City, it's like
54:41
a pinch me moment. It's happened a few times
54:45
now and every time I do it, I feel like the luckiest
54:48
guy in the world. I love Seattle. I look like
54:53
I've been to Seattle a few times, love Seattle.
54:57
Florida is, I wasn't expecting to like Florida.
54:59
I think I always just associated Florida with,
55:02
with the theme parks. And I was never a big Disney
55:06
fan when I was growing up. So when I first arrived
55:10
in Florida, the first time I, I just, yeah, I
55:14
wasn't, didn't have any expectations. And maybe
55:16
for that reason, it blew me away. Like it was
55:19
such a beautiful place. and quite an inspiring
55:23
place having the space coast and yeah, yeah.
55:29
I think I've always said if I was going to move
55:31
to the US, it would probably be Florida, I think.
55:38
Yeah. All right. What is missing from education
55:42
right now? That's a difficult one. You know what,
55:53
I think in one respect, I don't think there's
55:56
anything missing. I think you go into any classroom
56:01
in any part of the world and you've got a teacher
56:04
who cares about their students and I think who
56:08
wants their students to do well. And I think
56:11
in some respect, that's all you need. That's
56:14
all you need. Now we can then add layer upon
56:18
layer upon layer on top of that about what's
56:20
actually going to make that happen. But yeah.
56:28
Yeah, I think I'll just leave that one there
56:30
if that's okay. Okay, we have one final one here.
56:35
You know, you give keynotes a lot, so I'm sure
56:38
you've been asked what do you want to have playing
56:40
as you're walking out onto that stage. And when
56:43
you get the opportunity to request What is your
56:46
number one go -to walk -up song for stepping
56:51
out in front of that audience as you're about
56:53
to deliver that keynote? You know what, I think
56:57
I've only ever been asked this, like I asked
57:00
for music once, and I think it was FETC in Orlando,
57:06
the Feature of Education Technology Conference,
57:09
and I chose Shoot to Kill by ACDC. Shoot to thrill
57:20
or shoot to thrill? Shoot to thrill. Yeah, shoot
57:23
to thrill. That's it. Yeah. Because it was quite
57:27
a personal reason. So I grew up in a small town
57:30
called Dunstan in the Northeast of England. And
57:35
the street that I grew up on 40 years earlier,
57:40
the lead singer of ACDC also grew up on that
57:43
street. So he's a big inspiration for me because
57:49
I think someone who grew up on the same street
57:54
as me became an international rock star, which
57:59
always just kind of blew my mind. So yeah, that's
58:06
why. All right. Well, that concludes the lightning
58:11
round. thank you thank you know what the podcast
58:15
is like nowhere else in in any kind of walk of
58:18
life do you get to just like have these conversations
58:22
and uh so uh i i thanks for indulging me and
58:26
letting me letting me talk and um yeah thanks
58:29
for having me guys definitely yeah yeah we'd
58:32
love to have you on again sometime and um we
58:35
we appreciate you taking the time to do this
58:36
with us especially after the the madness of the
58:39
last two days that you that you went through
58:41
uh with the with the A .S. on it and everything.
58:44
But is there anything that you want to just plug
58:47
that you've got coming up or things that folks
58:50
should know that that are listening? Not really.
58:54
We've got we've always got lots of things going
58:56
on and you can check it out at the A .I. educator
58:59
dot I .O. And we've also got our community, which
59:02
is A .I. educator dot tools is the website. It's
59:06
a it's a website which there's four thousand
59:09
five hundred educators on there. And they essentially
59:13
share experience of AI tools and how they're
59:16
putting them into practice. And they review those
59:19
tools as well. It's kind of the whole idea is
59:21
that it's a community to help each other navigate
59:25
just the vast choice out there when it comes
59:29
to AI and what's safe, what works. So if anyone
59:33
wants to come and join us there, that would be
59:35
more than welcome. Thank you. All right, and
59:38
if you're listening on the podcast or if you're
59:40
watching on YouTube, just check the show notes
59:42
and we'll have those links for you as well so
59:45
that you can check out Dan's work. And we'll
59:47
link the book as well so you can check out the
59:50
AI Educator Guide. So Dan, thanks again. We really
59:52
appreciate it. Thanks, guys. Thanks for listening
59:56
to Integrate This. Want to take your learning
59:59
further? Head over to our YouTube channel for
1:00:01
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