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Transforming Military Caregiving: Stories and Support for Veterans' Families · Moral Injury Support Network Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to this edition of the Moral Injuries Support Network Service for Service Women podcast.
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: My name is Jamie Peer and I am the Senior Executive Officer and co-host for today's podcast, and I am joined by my co-host, Dr Daniel Roberts, the President and Founder of Missions.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: Today, we are thrilled to have Sean Moore and Natasha Swayze joining us.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: We are especially excited that both of these women will be joining us for the Comprehensive Moral Injury Conference coming up September 17th through 20th in Sandy Springs, Georgia.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: Their expertise and firsthand experiences will be invaluable to the discussions and workshops planned for this important event.
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: So Sean serves as the Director of Support Programs for the Elizabeth Dole Foundation, where she supports financial and employment initiatives for caregiver families.
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: Sean is also an alumna 2017 Dole Caregiver Fellow for Missouri.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: Prior to becoming a caregiver for her husband of 23 years, who served in the US Army, Shawn was also a police officer for nearly 15 years in Kansas City.
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: She then obtained a Master of Social Work degree from Park University and is a licensed Master Social Worker in the state.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: Before joining the foundation, Shawn founded Caregivers on the Homefront, standing up mental health programming for veteran and military caregivers and their children.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: Sean is passionate about advocating for military and veteran caregivers, utilizing both her lived experience and education to present to national audiences.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: Sean is also the proud mother of four girls and five grandchildren.
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: The grandmother of five grandchildren, Natasha, is a program specialist for support programs at the Elizabeth Dole Foundation, With her bachelor's and master's degree in social work from Park University.
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: Natasha is a proud member of the Phi Alpha Rho Epsilon Honor Society and is passionate about serving the military community.
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: After her own experience as a caregiver following divorce, Natasha brings a unique perspective to the world of veteran caregiving.
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: She's especially dedicated to advocating for the hidden helpers, which are children who live in veteran homes, which are children who live in veteran homes.
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: Natasha's internship at the VA Medical Center and connections to military organizations have fueled her desire to create programming tailored to the needs of caregivers, their children and entire military families.
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: In addition to her professional accomplishments, Natasha is a proud mother of three and a grandmother of two boys.
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: So, without further ado, I would love to get into our discussion with you ladies.
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: Dan, would you like to say anything before I kick this off?
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: Thanks for being on our podcast today.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: You know ministry to families is so important, especially veteran families.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: Families are often the ones that kind of get left out in the cold and you know we really many times we really focus on the service members themselves.
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: The VA often tends to do that, other military support tends to do that, and we sort of like families are an afterthought most often, especially children are even an afterthought of the afterthought.
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: So what you're doing with caregivers on the home front is really so important.
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: All the different ministries and activities that you're doing to help support not only veterans but the family members spouses and children is so critical and so vital and I'm really proud of the work you're doing.
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: I'm very excited to hear to be part of this podcast today and just let the audience know about some of the great stuff you're doing, and I'm super excited about having you at the conference because people are really going to be, I know, moved by your talk and the information you've reached out.
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: So just thanks so much and looking forward to hearing from you.
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: Okay, so I'll let either one of you lead off with this question, but I would love to hear about the evolution of Operation Frontline Families from the nonprofit that Sean started back in 2017, which Dan mentioned Caregivers on the Homefront so that's a very recent shift into the operations frontline families, but can you take us from the beginning to now?
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: Maybe this is best for Sean.
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: Absolutely yeah.
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: And then I'll say when Natasha hopped on board, because she's a big part of it as well.
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: Hi everybody, thanks so much for having us on.
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: I truly appreciate that.
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: In 2017, I had been married to my late husband for about two years and what I had seen was a lot of support for him, but not necessarily me, not even education on how best that I could support him after his combat, trauma, et cetera, and I didn't want anyone else to be alone and I knew that if I was experiencing it, there were others as well, and really in Kansas City at that time, there were no other organizations that were supporting family members of military and veterans.
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: So I remember waking up one morning, my husband was still asleep and I gently am tapping him.
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: After I got out of the shower.
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: I was getting ready to go into the police department that day and I'm like, hey, I'm like, can we start a nonprofit?
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: And of course, he's sleeping.
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: So he's like, yeah, yeah, do whatever you want.
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: And I'm like, no, no, I'm really serious, can we do that?
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: And when that started, interesting enough, while I was taking a shower and I heard this voice say you know, go start a nonprofit.
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: And in my later years.
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: I know that voice is the Lord and I'm like no disrespect, but I have never done that and you're crazy.
• 6:27
  Speaker 3: So, but, having the blessing of my husband, he had started a foundation to bring a memorial to life down in Georgia as he was getting out of the military, so I knew he could do the paperwork and that's kind of how we started and we rock and rolled from caregivers on the home front in 2017, doing mental health work for those caregivers and family members in the veteran homes as well.
• 6:58
  Speaker 3: We then saw the need.
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: Everyone started asking us what do you do for kids?
• 7:02
  Speaker 3: We saw the need there and started a program for children and then, fast forward to about the end of last year, we decided to rebrand because many family members do not identify as being a caregiver and we felt like we were missing people.
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: So we rebranded to Operation Frontline Families and I'm going to pause there, because when Natasha and I were, it was in our master's program at Park University.
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: That's when we met and I needed someone else to help carry these programs out, and we were at breakfast, I think, one morning and one of our colleagues was with us and I was talking about needing someone and Kelly's like well, natasha, she's right there, have her come on board.
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: So it has been a labor of love and fun and as much as we're colleagues, we're really good friends and it's just been a blessing seeing how far we've come.
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: And then kind of fast forward to this year when we rebranded.
• 8:11
  Speaker 3: We were really excited about the rebrand and then I lost my husband in February of this year and that man did a lot of stuff behind the scenes that either I don't have time for or I just didn't know how to do it and we couldn't replace him monetarily with someone.
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: So we um as much, and I was working with the Elizabeth Dole foundation anyway.
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: So, um, they uh, the CEO, steve, had come out to the funeral and I think just from him seeing um, the funeral, my kids, the support that we had, it was a really opportune time for him to say, hey, you have a really big decision to make here, because I worked for EDF and then I was an executive director of Operation Frontline Families and I always felt like I walked that line pretty well, but it was becoming blurred and people are like okay, so who are you supporting here?
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: Who are you working for?
• 9:12
  Speaker 3: So I would say, just at the most opportune time, we had the conversation of dissolving Operation Frontline Families and bringing those programs to the Elizabeth Dole Foundation and my first thought was I'm not leaving Natasha behind.
• 9:31
  Speaker 3: She is coming on board, or this is a no, and Steve's like no, bring her along.
• 9:37
  Speaker 3: So it's super exciting for us, I think, just to be together.
• 9:42
  Speaker 3: Still, we have a lot of fun doing the things that we get to do and I'm just super excited at where we're at and where we're going.
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: I love that.
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: And, natasha, what's been your experience along this journey from caregivers on the home front to Operation Frontline Families with EDF?
• 10:04
  Speaker 4: on the home front to Operation Frontline Families with EDF.
• 10:06
  Speaker 4: Well, I was thinking as Sean was speaking that, my gosh, we accomplished a lot since I've been on with Sean and that was in January of 2020.
• 10:15
  Speaker 4: And I was thinking of all of the trips we went on across this country serving veteran families, the caregivers, the children, everybody that we've come in contact with.
• 10:29
  Speaker 4: We've learned so much from them and they just kind of have a piece of our heart and so many of those people we're still in contact with.
• 10:39
  Speaker 4: It's like we're one big family.
• 10:42
  Speaker 4: And I remember when I first started working with Sean and she was saying all these names of you know, people in different organizations, and I thought, gosh, I'm never going to.
• 10:53
  Speaker 4: I don't even know who she's talking about.
• 10:55
  Speaker 4: And it's funny to see now she'll mention a name or an organization and I know.
• 11:01
  Speaker 4: And so just the growth in the last several years together and again, those, those airplane miles across the country.
• 11:11
  Speaker 4: It was, it's been some of the best years of my life, being able to do what we've done.
• 11:43
  Speaker 4: No-transcript, the funding.
• 11:50
  Speaker 4: It was hard to get people to buy into supporting those family members.
• 11:55
  Speaker 4: Lots of times we would be.
• 11:57
  Speaker 4: People would respond with well, what about the veteran, or well, how's this help the veteran?
• 12:03
  Speaker 4: And we would list out all of the reasons why we were coming with a holistic approach to our programming and needing the funding for our programming.
• 12:14
  Speaker 4: There were some people that got it and that you know we had to buy in from, but that was the biggest challenge is proving to people that when you have a holistic approach and are supporting the whole family, that that veteran, when you're supporting that caregiver or that child, the veteran is being supported Right.
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was just going to say, you know, when you're inside of a military family you totally get that.
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: But it's interesting how it's like we're kind of this bubble and you know it's like people can't see, even though everybody's family's better if the kids feel supported, the parents feel supported, you know, and I and we run into some unique challenges trying to explain you know why.
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: Why women?
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: Why are you focused on women?
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: You know, as if the experience is totally the same for men and women in the military.
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: So we, we get that for sure.
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: So this one's for Sean, on the topic of moral injury how have you seen this issue manifest among the military families and caregivers you serve?
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: And then, if you'd like to expound on that, with some specific examples or stories, Absolutely.
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: I think I'm going to start out with with a personal story and and I think it'll hit home, um, for for my family, um, remember I was a police officer for 15 years.
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: Then I went into social work and my, my late husband, he he had quite a few challenges around mental, mental health and suicidality and we walked that journey really since 2017.
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: And for those caregivers who are supporting a veteran with their mental health challenges PTSD, tbi, anxiety, major depression, suicidality, all those things really they manifest into that entire family.
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: I have seen caregivers staying with veterans who may be in unsafe environments because of the challenges the veteran is having, but they need to leave for their safety.
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: But they will not, because the caring for a veteran is greater than their safety and they're really worried about how people will see and judge them if they leave.
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: And I think that really gets into the heart of especially women.
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: There are male caregivers, but for women, what are we taught to do?
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: Take care of people, take care of our family, take care of our spouse, and if we're not doing that, then who are we?
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: And I really think that gets at the just the the moral and ethics of your own self.
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: For me, as a former police officer, a social worker, saving my husband, literally saving him several times, was something that I kind of took from being a police officer.
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: I don't know how many times I've asked the question do you feel like harming yourself today?
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: It was a very natural thing for me to do at home.
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: Yet I'm the why at home.
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: I'm not the police officer, I'm not the therapist.
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: Yet it's a very blurred line.
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: When you get into the spot of knowing that for the most part, you can support that person by the knowledge that you have Now fast forward to him dying by suicide in February the parts that I have, although I know this in my head my heart goes to gosh.
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: How did you not save him?
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: You were a police officer for 15 years.
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: You're a mental health professional.
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: How could you not save him?
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: And although I know and I want everyone to know that's listening, that is not our job and we can absolutely not be the one to save your loved one, some of that is on that person and their own recovery, but I see that a lot we are given this title of caregiver.
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: That totally, almost takes away the being a wife, being a husband, being a partner, being adult child being a sibling that's caring for that veteran.
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: You don't have that anymore.
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: So that relationship is that of caregiver and if it's caregiver, I'm supposed to give care to that person no matter what.
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: Supposed to give care to that person, no matter what.
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: The burden of that is huge, especially if you go down the lane of can I actually keep this person safe from suicide.
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: I also believe that we see moral injury in just like now.
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: I blame some of the systems of care and it's really frustrating when I think about you could have done this.
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: You should have done that.
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: Why didn't you call me?
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: I am his caregiver and we get that a lot where we're not included at the table in any treatment planning, discharge planning.
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: If we don't know what we don't know, how can we best help?
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: I think the burden sometimes of caregiving and not knowing really gets to our heart and provides or not provides but leads into that guilt of not being able to provide the best care, or shame in maybe what happened.
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: Whatever that is, it's an interesting dynamic and we don't often call it moral injury, but that's what it is.
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and I'm just thinking like you were uniquely equipped to stand in that role for your spouse and yet there's so many things you like you said you don't know and the system isn't designed to keep you informed in real time, and so it's a lot of like surprises.
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: I'm guessing it's like surprise and it's like I would have handled that totally different.
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: I could have done something.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: I would have prevent you know preemptively done that if you would have kept me informed.
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: So I'm getting a little bit hot for you.
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, no, Jamie, you're like spot on, because after he passed away, I always go back to my police skills and I feel like I would have been a really good detective.
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: Back to my police skills and I feel like I would have been a really good detective had I known some of those things that I saw in his records.
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: And then, just diving deeper into what actually had happened, gosh, had I known a few of those things that the system of care could have shared with me, maybe I would have been more on alert than I was at the time.
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: I actually thought we were on an uphill trajectory of our relationship.
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: Of course, looking back, that's oftentimes what someone does when they have made the decision to die by suicide, and I really wasn't.
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: I wasn't tracking because things were so good.
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: Yet when I read his records, there were red flags that I didn't know.
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: So a couple of things I wanted to mention.
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: Or what you talked about is you know, we've interviewed 20 military spouses of service members with PTSD and as we are developing the project, we work with community members which were spouses and caregivers who had worked in that field, and we ended up changing our inclusion criteria from spouses of service members with PTSD to spouses of service members who might have PTSD but were never diagnosed, or who could have PTSD but the spouse doesn't know if they do or not, because that information is not shared with the spouse.
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: So we wouldn't have known that had we not talked to the community members and said where they said hey, we don't know if our we believe our spouse does have PTSD.
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: The service member does have PTSD because we deal with it all the time but nobody's ever told us and, of course, a lot of service members don't get diagnosed.
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: The other thing is that many of the service member or many of the spouses they talked about what you said early on, which is they feel like they want to leave.
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: They probably should leave but they can't, and one of the reasons is because they don't blame the service member.
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: They say, hey, he or she deployed so many times.
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: They served their country, they did their patriotic duty, they served with honor.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: It's not their fault that they're really suffering now.
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: And what kind of person am I if I leave?
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: So they're really caught in a no-win situation, which is often a moral.
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: If you see that someone's in a no-win situation, then you can make the connection.
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: There's probably a moral injury situation there, because whatever decision they make, it's going to feel wrong.
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: It's going to feel like I'm betraying somebody or I'm betrayed, whatever.
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: And so this confirmation of what you're talking about.
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: We're seeing those in the interviews.
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: And then there's a third for some people there's a religious flavor to it, of like a religious version of love, if you will.
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: That says, hey, love says that you do whatever it takes to help this person.
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: And am I being unloving, if you know?
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: They're caught in that, that kind of conundrum.
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: And but some of them have said what I have learned to do is that I put up boundaries.
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to let the person any longer abuse me, and it was most often verbal abuse.
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: So they stayed in the situation, but they put up boundaries.
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: And then some of them said either you're going to get care or I am going to leave, you know.
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: So there are a couple of different versions of it, but just to what you're saying, it's really really a difficult situation where some people might say, well, you just need to leave.
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: That's crazy.
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: Don't be in that situation.
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: Well, when you get into their you know head, if, if you will, and you see that conundrum that they're in, it's not an easy decision.
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: It's like pain, or pain is often the sort of decision absolutely.
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: And you know, a lot of times those, the, the spouses or whoever that is, a partner that is, you know knows in their head that they should leave.
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: But that part is really a pull towards towards staying, because you're, you're spot on it's.
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: They care for that person.
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: I know, for me, this marrying Brian was not my first marriage and I made, actually him and I made a very, very concerted effort from the beginning that divorce was never going to be an option.
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: We weren't going down to down that road again and we were sticking it out, you know, through, through sickness and in health.
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: And yet there were several times along the way and I'm like, wow, I, I kind of probably need to to at least leave, not necessarily separate.
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: But another thing is a lot of these caregivers, they don't work, they have left jobs.
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: I mean, I left my career at the police department to care for Brian and be able to be there more.
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: I'm not one to sit around, so I went ahead and got a different, different job.
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: But but I found a job that I could provide the best support that I thought I could.
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: But if you throw finances into it, many of them don't have anything outside of what that veteran is bringing in.
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: So they don't have no way to leave, even if they they want to even if they they want to.
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I have had this conversation recently, like psychological safety is one thing, but having somewhere where you can go, that's all you know.
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: Like it doesn't feel like you have anywhere else you could go, either something oftentimes I think so, um, that's very interesting.
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: I appreciate.
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: Appreciate that.
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: How about you, natasha?
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: What have you observed about the relationship between moral injuries and these challenges faced by military and veteran caregivers?
• 26:37
  Speaker 4: No, I'm sitting here shaking my head.
• 26:39
  Speaker 4: Yes, because Daniel was definitely singing our tune.
• 26:42
  Speaker 4: You know, and I look back now and really our programming that we put in place or that we continue to do hits home on moral injury and trying to break caregivers out of that and the guilt and shame that comes with moral injury.
• 27:01
  Speaker 4: The boundaries Daniel you said that we do a whole curriculum and workshop on setting boundaries and then setting up, you know, our caregivers for success.
• 27:14
  Speaker 4: When it comes to the finances, we have those hard conversations about.
• 27:20
  Speaker 4: You know, caregiving will end one day I think that's Sean coined that term.
• 27:26
  Speaker 4: Everyone knows that that's what is preached.
• 27:30
  Speaker 4: You know that it's going to end.
• 27:32
  Speaker 4: Who knows how it will.
• 27:33
  Speaker 4: But, especially when we look at our statistics, we know that divorce is high in our veteran families, suicide is high.
• 27:41
  Speaker 4: So, taking just those two things into consideration, we have to make sure that our caregivers are set up for success and have those hard conversations where a lot of people, a lot of community members, may look at us and jaw drop.
• 27:59
  Speaker 4: Jaws drop because of how we're just hitting home with it and being real and having those hard conversations.
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so kind of along those lines what are some of the most effective support interventions that you've seen or found most helpful, especially as it maybe applies to moral injury or even anything else?
• 28:26
  Speaker 4: I would say like that, peer-to-peer support.
• 28:28
  Speaker 4: People have to be able to know that they're not alone in their journey and that in this space it is so common the things that they are going through, even though you know some situations may be a little unique.
• 28:42
  Speaker 4: But really moral injury in this space is not unique.
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: There's lots of themes in the space that it's not unique to each family.
• 28:52
  Speaker 4: That is so common.
• 28:53
  Speaker 4: And just know that programming has to be established for those caregivers and children to care for themselves, take care of themselves and know their strengths and know that their, their whole identity cannot be wrapped up in caregiving.
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: How about you Sean any specific strategies or interventions that you've seen?
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: Natasha and I.
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: I think Natasha and I, we I think we've been around each other so much that we can pretty much finish each other's thoughts.
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: But she's spot on.
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: That's exactly what I would have said, just that peer-to-peer support First, because there's got to be a recognition of what you're going through is normal in our population.
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: You're not alone Yet.
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: These are not things that you have to stick in at the detriment to your own mental health.
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: Secondary stress is talked about a lot in the caregiving space, the family member space, but moral injury really isn't, and I think the more we talk about this, the more it's going to make sense to the caregivers and those who are supporting them.
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: Because when, I mean when you look up the definition, I'm like, oh my gosh, let me check that box, check that box, check that box.
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: Yet no one has ever asked or said hey, I think you have some moral injuries here and really dive deep into how is that affecting the mental health and even the way you care for your loved one?
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: It is no secret, I actually said it at a conference last week, I think, or the week before Last week, I think, or the week before that, towards the end of Brian's life, our marriage.
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: Really it stunk.
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: I was not in a place that I had empathy anymore because of the repeated suicide attempts and the lack of support that I got when he was being treated.
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: Not that I had a tremendous, tremendous support group of peers, natasha, great colleagues, and in fact if I did not have them today, I probably although things are hard now, but I would not be in the space that I am mentally right now.
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: So I am thankful for this community.
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: Yet it can't just be caregivers supporting caregivers.
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: It's got to be the systems of care.
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: If your loved one is getting care from the VA, it has to be on the VA as well.
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: And other systems of care DOD our civilian care providers.
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: We have to recognize that there's more than just treating the veteran and not to say we're not looking at the veteran, it's.
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: Let's look at them holistically.
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: And how do we get these families?
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: Let's look at them holistically.
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: And how do we get these families back together after some really tough challenges in the whole entire family?
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, one of the things is I've, you know, grown in my awareness of moral injury and kind of what were some of the causes of mine.
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: It's really really hard because organizations aren't people, but people make up organizations, so we tend to default to.
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: The army did this to me, or the military did this to me, right, and I don't think that anyone, like 99.9% of the time, I don't think people are intending to do this to one another.
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: So when I say what I'm about to say, I don't, it's not from a you know, they did this to me.
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: It's this lack of awareness of what it can do.
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: And so for, for me, as a young person coming into the military and hearing about duty, honor, country integrity, courage, honor, all of these things, and I'm like, yeah, absolutely, I want to be a part of that.
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: Yes, sign me up, you know, and.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: But then you come in and there's people, and people are messy and people do and say and, and, you know, interact with you in in ways that cause moral injury.
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: I can only imagine and I and I am a family member of a military person as well is that there's so much rhetoric about how families are absolutely instrumental in the success of the soldier or the airman or whatever and that we need you.
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: But I don't think that people understand.
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: It's not just that you're supporting the family while the soldier's away, or you're taking the lead on moving for the 15th time while your soldier's away.
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: You know like those are all actual hard things that military families have to do and we applaud that, but we don't talk about the psychological, you know, heavy lifting that military families have to.
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: You know when, when the orders change or the last minute deployment, or when they get home from that deployment and like then what you know, what is the what?
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: What are you doing now for military families?
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: You said we were very important and now, when we really need you, there's nothing.
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: So I only imagine is that?
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: Is that accurate or am I imagining?
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: You're not imagining, and I liken that to when someone, when a veteran, is in a PTSD program, a substance use program.
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: They were away probably five, six, seven weeks and what led them to get to that?
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: What led, what was going on that led them to the crisis state.
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: The PTSD program, the substance use program, that was all happening at home and it was not just happening to the veteran, it was happening, happening to the entire family, so that veteran can go and get treatment, feel better when he or she comes out, goes home and hang on a minute.
• 35:52
  Speaker 3: Hey, I'm still mad because what happened before you even left and I didn't get any support.
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: No one was calling me, no one was giving me information, and it's not just me, it happens all the time.
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: Yet how are we supporting, just like you said, jamie, the family?
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: It's a different aspect.
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: Right, we need to support the veteran, we need to support the service member, we need to support the caregiver and the kids individually, but at the same time, they all come back together and if we're missing one of those pieces, are we really supporting the veteran in the best way that we can?
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 36:35
  Speaker 4: And it really, sean.
• 36:37
  Speaker 4: When you said that, I was thinking.
• 36:39
  Speaker 4: You know, for instance, say, someone's inpatient at the VA.
• 36:42
  Speaker 4: We understand that everybody that works in some kind of system of care is overworked, capacity is at full.
• 36:51
  Speaker 4: Maybe they don't have the bandwidth to directly support the family.
• 36:55
  Speaker 4: But if we quit, if systems quit working in silos and work together, who is that person that could reach out to the family to make sure they're okay?
• 37:04
  Speaker 4: Who is that person that could reach out to the family to make sure they're okay?
• 37:07
  Speaker 4: You know, if there's not the capacity at the VA or wherever that that service member or veteran is, it has to be more streamlined wraparound services, people working together, and I don't think that happens enough at all.
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: No, when we, when we talk to the vast majority of the spouses we talked to, when we asked them about any care, therapy, whatever they might be getting, it was zero.
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: Because it was like, well, what am I supposed to do that?
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: Because I'm taking care of the kids, I'm taking care of the veteran.
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: He or she can't work, so I have this job, now that I also do, to try to bring in money.
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: So when am I supposed to do that?
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: Um, who's gonna?
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: So, caring for the spouse might mean child care, um, as well, as many of them said, I didn't even know I could get.
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: If my spouse, if the service member, can't get the mental health care they need, how am I supposed to get it?
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: Because, as you mentioned, natasha, there's not nearly enough capacity for veterans, let alone, um, let alone spouses.
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: So so they're surviving somehow with nothing and as I'm doing these interviews, I'm just amazed that they are surviving at all.
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: I just found that incredible respect for spouses, because I'm thinking I don't know if I could do that.
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: All that you have on your plate, all the burden, not to mention wondering is the veteran going to be alive the next day?
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: Are they?
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: What are they up to now, what are they?
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: You know, the kids, all that, and then the burden of what am I doing to my children there.
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: You know, if I don't, you know, it's just this incredible um smorgasbord of, of burden and stress, um, with very little relief, relief, it's just.
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: It's just I don't know how they're doing it.
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: Now, some of them did talk about, I think, more than anything, people talk about peer support as being really vital and and you know, wounded healers helping wounded healers, spouses helping spouses as being probably the number one thing that spouses said was helpful to them.
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: And so the peer support that caregivers on the home front does in those programs, it's just, you know they're vital, but I just want to tell the audience to like that that may be the number one thing that's keeping spouses going for many of them right now, and there's many spouses that aren't getting anything.
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: So anything we can do to help more spouses get connected to support services is just so important, yeah, so important, yeah, and I think maybe part of the reason it's so effective is because it's the only thing.
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: They've got that peer support right, like wouldn't even know if the other things could help it.
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: This is what.
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: This is what we've got, and and that's also beautiful is that we're going to have to be our own support system, and who better to understand those unique challenges than somebody who's going through that journey alongside you, or been there done that?
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: Another thing that came to me, you know I was in human resources in the army and one of the key phrases that we would say is we recruit soldiers but we retain families.
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: Yet this is a critical component of retaining families is providing the support for them to be a healthy military family.
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, that's really powerful okay.
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: So I'm super curious about the uh partnership between operation frontline families.
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: I know you're integrated now with elizabeth dole foundation and can you can, can you tell me how you know and believe that this will continue to enhance the support and advocacy for this critical population?
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: Absolutely so.
• 41:26
  Speaker 3: First, it was one of the most hardest decisions I've ever made deciding to dissolve your baby right.
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: Deciding to dissolve your baby right that you put so much sweat and tears into from the beginning, and it was such a personal journey in supporting others Yet again.
• 41:49
  Speaker 3: For us it was also the right time for everything that was going on.
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: And the Elizabeth Dole Foundation they're a bigger organization.
• 42:01
  Speaker 3: They have partners that we just did not have and we can reach more.
• 42:08
  Speaker 3: That's what I'm so excited about is the fact that we can reach so many more family members, caregivers, coming to a larger organization that has been doing this for so much longer than we had.
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: And EDF has been growing their programmatic activities.
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: From the beginning, they were an advocacy organization at state, local, federal level what policies do we need in place at the VA and legislation, what could they do to put caregiving on the map?
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: And they really did.
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: Yet as we have moved forward, they have slowly added programmatic activities.
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: That's what we're really excited about, because our programs were put together from mental health professionals, evidence-based things going into those programs.
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: We really didn't want to let those go.
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: For me, I didn't want to let natasha go or those programs go, so it's.
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: That's what we're we're really excited about and, I think, also growing both of us individually in our careers and being just we're getting in more spaces, and I think that's what's most important for our caregiver and family member population.
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: It's not just about you know me founding this organization, it's how can we reach more people, and I think that was one of the things that really I cared about the most.
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: And, just on a personal note, just like Natasha said and like we say all the time caregiving is going to end, we have to set ourselves up for success and had I not, had I not, I wouldn't have been getting a paycheck.
• 44:02
  Speaker 3: Brian's all of his VA, social security, military retirement stopped the day he passed away.
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: The day he passed away, and had I not been working and finding something that really fueled my passion, I would be sitting here going.
• 44:22
  Speaker 3: How am I going to stay in my house?
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: How am I going to put food on the table for my kids while I'm grieving?
• 44:29
  Speaker 3: And that's the one thing that I didn't have to do, and I really thank goodness that I came across the Elizabeth Toll Foundation in 2017.
• 44:39
  Speaker 3: When I did, it opened up so many doors that I found a passion in supporting this population.
• 44:50
  Speaker 3: And not to mention, I may have a big mouth and actually say things that may upset people at some points in time.
• 44:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm telling it like it is.
• 45:03
  Speaker 4: I love that.
• 45:03
  Speaker 4: I love it.
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: Okay, so can you talk a little bit more about what is the suite of services you mentioned?
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: They had started some things, you brought some things.
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: Can you talk to us about what some of those things look like and what you're offering?
• 45:21
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, Natasha.
• 45:22
  Speaker 3: Do you want to?
• 45:23
  Speaker 4: Yeah, sure.
• 45:23
  Speaker 4: So we had started our mental health first aid that we've done with our caregivers we had, since last week we completed a mental health first aid course.
• 45:34
  Speaker 4: So getting caregivers certified, so to speak, to be able to do mental health first aid was important to us and we were able to do that.
• 45:47
  Speaker 4: Still, our restorative weekends we will be getting those back up and running.
• 45:53
  Speaker 4: Right now I've been with the Elizabeth Dole Foundation just since June, so I'm still getting my feet wet and getting the hang of things, but I have no doubt that the restorative weekends that we did at Operation Frontline Families will begin again.
• 46:13
  Speaker 4: Our Hidden Helpers Homefront Hangout that's something that we'll definitely get started again with our Hidden Helpers and art workshops that we love to do at Operation Frontline Families.
• 46:29
  Speaker 4: I know that that will be a goal and we will bring that to the table at the Elizabeth Dole Foundation.
• 46:35
  Speaker 4: That was something that just was great.
• 46:36
  Speaker 4: Self-care to the table at the Elizabeth Dole Foundation that was something that just was great.
• 46:38
  Speaker 4: Self-care for the caregivers and the children, but a great way to connect each other and it was online.
• 46:48
  Speaker 4: So we reached lots of caregivers across the country.
• 46:50
  Speaker 4: So that was great.
• 46:51
  Speaker 4: Was that was great.
• 46:53
  Speaker 4: And then at the Elizabeth Dole Foundation.
• 46:56
  Speaker 4: They, sean, she had started, she was overseeing the HOPE Fund at the foundation for critical financial assistance with caregivers or for caregivers, so that's still there and so there's still lots of great programs and, sean, if there's a few in there of the Elizabeth Dole Foundation that you want to throw in, that I feel like it's important and critical for the caregivers to know and have our resources.
• 47:27
  Speaker 3: Absolutely.
• 47:28
  Speaker 3: We talked about peer support.
• 47:29
  Speaker 3: We have a private Facebook group that offers so much peer support.
• 47:35
  Speaker 3: We have mental health or they call them mental wellness workshops.
• 47:39
  Speaker 3: They're a six-week workshop and we've done some train the trainer where caregivers are actually leading those groups as well, and then our advocacy will never go away.
• 47:49
  Speaker 3: That's a.
• 47:50
  Speaker 3: You know, having a spot at the table in lots of different places is something that EDF does really well and it's still needed.
• 47:59
  Speaker 3: So we'll continue doing those things.
• 48:02
  Speaker 3: Suicide prevention in the caregiver is very important to us.
• 48:06
  Speaker 3: I was just given a new title, senior Advisor in Suicide Prevention, which is very near and dear to my heart, not only in the veteran space, but those caregivers I mean.
• 48:18
  Speaker 3: I oftentimes tell people put yourself in this caregiver's shoes who maybe just lost a veteran to suicide.
• 48:28
  Speaker 3: Their loved one has been inpatient many times.
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: They have ALS.
• 48:34
  Speaker 3: I mean ALS is bigger in the veteran population.
• 48:39
  Speaker 3: Can you imagine taking care of things like that without any education?
• 48:45
  Speaker 3: You're just standing up and going.
• 48:47
  Speaker 3: I'm supposed to care for my loved one.
• 48:50
  Speaker 3: So we want to make sure that we're just providing a suite of services that you may not need mental wellness workshops right now, but peer support and you're looking for resources.
• 49:04
  Speaker 3: We have a resource navigation think case management.
• 49:07
  Speaker 3: We don't call it that, but we have an amazing colleague on our team that knows so many different resources that she can help with, team that knows so many different resources that she can help with, and our Hidden Helpers Coalition where we're getting educators, doctors, mental health professionals together on how best we can support the kids in these homes.
• 49:27
  Speaker 3: And what are we missing?
• 49:30
  Speaker 3: Not everybody lives in a military town and when you don't, people aren't I mean my neighbors sure aren't thinking, oh gosh, we have a veteran family next door and, oh my gosh, she just lost someone.
• 49:43
  Speaker 3: In fact, none of them have said anything.
• 49:46
  Speaker 3: So if we didn't have our community and organizations such as the Elizabeth Dole Foundation, I know I would be a mess, but other people, other family members, wouldn't have a place to go to.
• 50:00
  Speaker 3: And I think that's what's really important, especially when we're talking about secondary trauma, moral injury.
• 50:08
  Speaker 3: Oftentimes those aren't talked about in the family space, but we need to recognize it so we can best support those family members in staying together.
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely.
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: Sorry, Jamie, no, I'm just.
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: I've got so many ideas now.
• 50:27
  Speaker 4: I can't believe I left this one out, but it's so important to Sean and I because we do want caregivers to be set up for success is our Financial Peace University.
• 50:38
  Speaker 4: They're the Dave Ramsey courses.
• 50:41
  Speaker 4: We provide that, and so you know it helps the caregiver be involved in the finances Lots of them are not involved in the finances.
• 50:52
  Speaker 4: It helps them give the tools to be able to set them up for success if and when caregiving ends, and so that's one that is near and dear to us, and right now we have lots of caregivers that are working on their budgets and that will be coming again soon that will be coming again soon.
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so there's definitely an empowerment component to what you do because you can.
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: You can be a much more effective caregiver when you're standing in your own power and you know that you're solid with you know in or out of this situation.
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: But for so many people that don't feel like they've got anything else, that insecurity, coupled with the challenges that they're facing just you know, and it's not their fault, it just it makes their ability to care give less effect.
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: I can, I can imagine.
• 51:48
  Speaker 3: So absolutely.
• 51:49
  Speaker 3: I mean you know that old saying put your put your oxygen mask on first is really important and it's very cliche.
• 51:59
  Speaker 3: And, like Daniel had said earlier, where do we find the time for self-care?
• 52:05
  Speaker 3: We try to identify that and those are small moments.
• 52:11
  Speaker 3: I mean stepping out on my back deck and soaking in the sun for five, 10 minutes.
• 52:16
  Speaker 3: That's part of self-care.
• 52:18
  Speaker 3: I don't have to go and spend a bunch of money for self-care and that's what we want to help caregivers recognize it may be.
• 52:27
  Speaker 3: I mean I love to color and you know I do that a lot at night Reading.
• 52:32
  Speaker 3: You don't have to spend a ton of money for self-care and I think that's what's really important.
• 52:39
  Speaker 3: Oftentimes it's, you know, go get a massage, get your nails done.
• 52:42
  Speaker 3: And again, when do we find the time to do that and do we have the money to do that?
• 52:47
  Speaker 3: So I think finding those small moments of self-care texting Natasha or, you know, calling another caregiver and going, hey, I just need to vent for a minute that's self-care and finding your true network of people is so needed.
• 53:07
  Speaker 3: Just know you're not the only one out there going through the stuff that you are.
• 53:11
  Speaker 3: I promise you you're not the only one.
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: So where would somebody go if they resonate with what you're saying and they're like I need that?
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: How do I get plugged into these webinars or these peer support groups?
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: What would they do if they think this would be helpful?
• 53:32
  Speaker 3: Absolutely so.
• 53:33
  Speaker 3: Our website address is the sorry elizabethdolefoundationorg and then follow us on social media.
• 53:41
  Speaker 3: That is where you're going to find like the offerings that natasha and I are doing those workshops.
• 53:48
  Speaker 3: The hope fund for critical financial assistance is listed under the help section at elizabeth Foundation's website and in the end you can email us.
• 54:00
  Speaker 3: Reach out to Natasha and I.
• 54:02
  Speaker 3: It's our first name at ElizabethDoleFoundationorg.
• 54:06
  Speaker 3: If you've got any questions, if you're feeling alone, you need resources.
• 54:12
  Speaker 3: Reach out.
• 54:13
  Speaker 3: It is so.
• 54:15
  Speaker 3: Need resources.
• 54:20
  Speaker 3: Reach out.
• 54:21
  Speaker 3: It is so.
• 54:21
  Speaker 3: You matter too.
• 54:21
  Speaker 3: I think oftentimes caregivers, family members, don't hear that you matter too and you've got to make sure you're doing okay.
• 54:28
  Speaker 3: Senator Dole said to a veteran's healing is a well-rounded caregiver who is finding that space among other caregivers, so we can best support that veteran in our home.
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: I love that.
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: Okay, so some of the ideas I had, but the one in particular is like we're so grateful that you're going to be coming to speak and share about the Elizabeth Dole Foundation and Operation Frontline Families at the Comprehensive Moral Injury Conference.
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: After this, I would love to talk about how we could maybe help support some of the things you're doing with the studies that we've done on moral injury and family members and things like that, to help contribute to that conversation, because it's about affecting policy at the highest levels and it's about the grassroots peer support, and it's also about raising awareness, you know, at the top levels of leadership, and it is very important because we do need to retain family and we're not in a position right now to be taking families for granted in the military, because it is a major, you know, we have a shortage of military service members and we've got to be doing everything we can to reinforce the families that support them.
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: So, absolutely so I would love to know just just a teaser.
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: So, just a teaser, don't give them the whole thing.
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: But what are you most looking forward to sharing as you prepare to come to the Comprehensive Moral Injury Conference?
• 56:03
  Speaker 3: in September.
• 56:03
  Speaker 3: I know.
• 56:03
  Speaker 3: For me it's caregiver awareness.
• 56:06
  Speaker 3: It's bringing the voice of the caregiver to the more than 5.5 million military and veteran caregivers out there.
• 56:15
  Speaker 3: Natasha and I are going to be your voice in hopes that those that are attending see a different side of the veteran space and not forget the family and Jamie.
• 56:32
  Speaker 3: Many, just like you said, many of the women veterans.
• 56:38
  Speaker 3: They're also caregivers and we've always thought it was so interesting that they'll identify as a caregiver when they come into our programs, but not as a veteran, and that's very interesting to us, Right, and as a police officer, former police officer I understand that.
• 56:53
  Speaker 3: I get it, but I don't think a lot of people do so.
• 56:56
  Speaker 3: It's giving that voice to others and, just like you said, research.
• 57:02
  Speaker 3: There's not enough research in regard to caregiving of veterans and when it's not in the research, it's not happening.
• 57:09
  Speaker 3: So we've got to be that voice.
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: Yep, and that's one of the frustrating things as well.
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: You know, when you're trying to raise funds and they're like, well, where's your research?
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: And it's like we're too busy caregiving to think about that conversation.
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: It's like I don't have time to get a PhD right now.
• 57:30
  Speaker 3: I'm actually about signed up this fall, I about signed up this fall.
• 57:36
  Speaker 3: I'm like no, no, sean, you got a lot going on.
• 57:38
  Speaker 3: Just wait till next year, think about it.
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: And what about you, Natasha?
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: What are you looking forward to?
• 57:48
  Speaker 4: I'm, you know, kind of to spin on what Sean said I love sharing about our population and caregivers and then watching what people do with that information that we share, when they take it back to their communities, to their organizations and something comes of it like it feels so good to know that they heard us and that they're doing something about it, to be inclusive of the caregivers that often the times they're serving and that are right there next to the veteran and they're you know they're overlooked.
• 58:22
  Speaker 4: So being able to see that play out is why we keep coming to conferences and speaking and keep advocating, because there are people that listen and that hear us.
• 58:34
  Speaker 4: And it's rewarding to caregivers, into military and veteran families when action is being done on that.
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, and it's encouraging to the people that you're helping to know that you are out there, putting yourself in these spaces, having these very important conversations, changing minds, changing hearts, all of that so very much.
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: Looking forward to doing that for us with the Comprehensive Moral Injury Conference.
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: So with that we'll wrap up this podcast.
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: But again, ladies, you know just personally I love spending time with you professionally.
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: I have so much respect for what you're doing.
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: I appreciate you so much and we'll have all the information for you know, elizabeth Dole Foundation, operation Frontline Families, in our show notes We'll also have a link to signing up for the conference.
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: You, ladies, please share with your peers who are in the mental health space, because this is exactly who the conference is for.
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: It's for the people who are interacting with the people that are potentially morally injured and they just don't know and unfortunately, it's still not a widely understood or researched experience that we have.
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: So thank you, thank you, thank you, and we'll look forward to seeing you in September.
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: Thank you Jamie, sean and Natasha so much.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: It's been a great podcast today.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: I learned a lot just by listening to it.
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: I know the listeners did too, and they're going to learn even more if they come to the conference because Sean and Natasha will provide even more information.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: It's going to be an emotional session but it's going to be very informative and I know that people will walk away really with a heart to help military families and some great information to work with to really help them be able to do that.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: So for me, thank you so much and look forward to seeing you in September.
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 3: Absolutely.
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 3: Thank you too, all right.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: Have a good day, all right, bye.