Latest / I Hate Soccer with Jason Collinsworth / I Hate Soccer | Jags Show #3 - Mark Zathey, an education of a soccer coach! Coaching MASTERCLASS!

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I Hate Soccer | Jags Show #3 - Mark Zathey, an education of a soccer coach! Coaching MASTERCLASS! · I Hate Soccer with Jason Collinsworth

0:00
SPEAKER_01: This is episode three of the Jags show.
0:04
SPEAKER_01: When I started this podcast, I knew that I wanted to have Mark Zathi on at some point.
0:12
SPEAKER_01: He has been influential more than probably even knows.
0:18
SPEAKER_01: He coached my D license back when I was 19 or 20 years old, and we discussed that in the show.
0:25
SPEAKER_01: Then, in a short time, within about two or three years, I got to work with him through uh the Olympic development program back when it was in its heyday, and I got to work with him and some other legends.
0:41
SPEAKER_01: And then a full circle moment.
0:43
SPEAKER_01: I am taking my C license in Bradington, Florida at IMG, and he is auditing his A license.
0:55
SPEAKER_01: At this time, I think he was like the interim director of coaching for the state of Michigan.
1:01
SPEAKER_01: And he is currently uh a staff member of the Jags, where he uh is their coaching education director.
1:09
SPEAKER_01: How many clubs in the country have a director of coaching education?
1:15
SPEAKER_01: They have directors of coaching.
1:17
SPEAKER_01: How often does a director of coaching actually get to coach coaches?
1:21
SPEAKER_01: Most of the time, I joke, directors of coaching should be called directors of parents because most of the time they're spent talking to parents.
1:31
SPEAKER_01: Not at the Jacks and not Mark Zathy.
1:34
SPEAKER_01: He's also uh at his alma mater, he is the men's coach at Madonna University.
1:41
SPEAKER_01: He used to be the women's coach of Madonna University, and then he is also the technical director of the state of Michigan.
1:50
SPEAKER_01: This one is an education.
1:54
SPEAKER_01: He talks about obviously the coaching education.
1:59
SPEAKER_01: He talks about when Christian Polisic was at his club for three years, uh and he's been all over the world learning and honing his craft of coaching.
2:12
SPEAKER_01: He's been to South America, he's been to Europe, he's been to Africa, and to see what everybody else is doing and to see different tactics and different styles of coaching, as always.
2:28
SPEAKER_01: Please like, subscribe, and share this everywhere.
2:34
SPEAKER_01: On YouTube, I want 5,000 subscribers by Christmas, and for audio, I want a hundred thousand downloads by Christmas.
2:47
SPEAKER_01: And I think it's gonna happen, guys.
2:49
SPEAKER_01: Please keep on sharing this.
2:51
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for the support and enjoy getting to know Mark Zappe.
2:57
SPEAKER_01: I hate soccer.
2:58
SPEAKER_00: I was hearing impaired, but I didn't realize how much I read lips all my childhood through adulthood until COVID and people started covering their faces.
3:06
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, man, I don't hear very well.
3:09
SPEAKER_00: And there was quite a few times parents in the club or friends or players, like I'd have my back turned and they'd be saying, Z, Z, you know, and the look on their face was like, ignoring me, you know.
3:23
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I'm sorry, I'm hearing I'm you know, I have to if I have my back turned, I may not hear you, you know.
3:28
SPEAKER_00: So um, but I could get along well enough where people wouldn't realize it overtly, you know.
3:34
SPEAKER_03: Right.
3:35
SPEAKER_00: Um but my hearing has been impacted inside my right ear.
3:39
SPEAKER_00: I had three to three surgeries in the fall during our Madonna season.
3:43
SPEAKER_00: The doc's like, yeah, you have to take off uh six to eight weeks of work, and I'm like, uh we had a game the next day after my first surgery.
3:52
SPEAKER_00: I was there.
3:53
SPEAKER_00: So I go, yeah, that's not gonna okay, doc, you know.
3:57
SPEAKER_00: So uh my lifestyle doesn't accommodate that.
4:02
SPEAKER_00: So I gotta put in some hard yards.
4:04
SPEAKER_00: Um so I just went to him last week and I said, Hey, you know, progress on my ear and how it's feeling.
4:13
SPEAKER_00: He's like, everything looks good.
4:16
SPEAKER_00: A silly thing, kind of first world problems.
4:18
SPEAKER_00: It's not, I'm not worried about the cosmetic, like cool points anymore, but I want to start exercising more now that I'm feeling a little bit better and healthy.
4:26
SPEAKER_00: Um my right ear, he took out so much cartilage and went so deep, it's kind of collapsed against the side of my head.
4:34
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, I'm gonna start, I sweat a lot like when I'm exercising, like taking like two, three showers a day minimum, you know.
4:42
SPEAKER_00: And um I go, I don't necessarily really care how it looks, I just want you to pull it off the side of my head a little bit.
4:51
SPEAKER_00: And he he started laughing.
4:53
SPEAKER_00: He goes, I could I could see that, you know, and I explained why.
4:56
SPEAKER_00: Um he goes, Mark, you're not gonna be healed until like November of 26th.
5:03
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
5:04
SPEAKER_00: I went really deep inside your ear.
5:06
SPEAKER_00: I was I was really nervous, I was gonna lose my hearing in my right ear.
5:10
SPEAKER_00: So I got um, I just had like a bump under my skin.
5:16
SPEAKER_00: Nobody could see it, but it bothered me.
5:18
SPEAKER_00: And you just felt it?
5:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I felt it like cleaning out my ears.
5:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I could feel it.
5:23
SPEAKER_00: So I just dug it out with my fingernail because it bothered me.
5:26
SPEAKER_00: Nobody could see it, but it wasn't healing.
5:29
SPEAKER_00: So people that would see me every day because I'm stubborn and and and not too bright, uh, were like, hey, um, what's in your ear?
5:40
SPEAKER_00: Like, that's not healing.
5:41
SPEAKER_00: I look good, scab, and then I'd take a shower, water, wash it out, and scab again, copy and paste, rinse and repeat.
5:48
SPEAKER_00: Um, so I finally called the dermatologist, they're like, Yeah, we should do a biopsy.
5:52
SPEAKER_00: And um, I said, I also have this spot on my shoulder.
5:56
SPEAKER_00: And I haven't taken my shirt off in a sudden light.
6:00
SPEAKER_00: I was about maybe 22 years old, but came back a few weeks later, like, hey, you have you have skin cancer, you know.
6:07
SPEAKER_00: It's like hear that word, stomach turns a little bit.
6:12
SPEAKER_00: They're like, hey, it's basal cell, it's not not too aggressive, it's at least concerning, and blah, blah, blah.
6:18
SPEAKER_00: So I go, I know.
6:19
SPEAKER_00: And my mom used to work in the medical field.
6:22
SPEAKER_00: So she worked for a neurosurgeon for a long time.
6:26
SPEAKER_00: And when I was a kid, and then she worked for uh cranial facial institute.
6:30
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you would remember, you were probably too young.
6:32
SPEAKER_00: Dr.
6:32
SPEAKER_00: Ian Jackson was on 60 Minutes.
6:34
SPEAKER_00: They were kind of the infamous plastic surgeon at the central Detroit.
6:38
SPEAKER_00: And uh she goes, so she knew she goes to go see Dr.
6:41
SPEAKER_00: Julio Soso.
6:43
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, he's who I recommend.
6:46
SPEAKER_00: So I go see him, he's a charming, charming guy.
6:49
SPEAKER_00: And uh I could see when he looked in my ear, kind of his facial expression changed.
6:54
SPEAKER_00: And he tried to stay kind of calm and joking and super charismatic, but I could see his jaw clench a little bit.
7:01
SPEAKER_00: I'm thinking to myself, well, he just like a kind of abrupt, not rudely, but abruptly left the room.
7:07
SPEAKER_00: So I'm thinking to myself, you know, there's a red flag.
7:12
SPEAKER_00: Not that I'm capping intuition, but that's not good.
7:15
SPEAKER_00: Uh so he comes back in and just was like, hey, I want to, it's above my pay grade, kind of like like he wasn't good enough.
7:24
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, oh, this is serious.
7:25
SPEAKER_00: So recommended Dr.
7:27
SPEAKER_00: Fishman, um, who's done plastics like head neck for over 30 years.
7:33
SPEAKER_00: And he goes, I'll I'll I'll do it.
7:35
SPEAKER_00: And I go, well, doc, I I'm almost 50 years old.
7:38
SPEAKER_00: However, it looks, I'm not worried about that stuff anymore.
7:41
SPEAKER_00: I just I need to be able to hear because I'm already legally deaf in my left ear.
7:45
SPEAKER_00: Uh he goes, Oh, okay.
7:47
SPEAKER_00: He goes, Well, I'll I'll do it, you know, I'll take care of you.
7:50
SPEAKER_00: Um, so long story a little bit, long story long.
7:55
SPEAKER_00: Three surgeries later, uh, cancer free, I'm very grateful.
7:59
SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
8:00
SPEAKER_00: But I still feel a little bit insecure about my hearing has been impacted.
8:05
SPEAKER_00: He's convinced when I fully heal, like by November, it'll it'll be better.
8:10
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
8:10
SPEAKER_00: Um, but I just for lifestyle, social relationships, and then work, you know, I'm like, man, I'm already one for two.
8:19
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to go over two, man.
8:21
SPEAKER_00: I'll be sweeping the floors, you know.
8:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
8:24
SPEAKER_00: Like I don't see myself uh writing computer code here.
8:28
SPEAKER_00: I need to.
8:29
SPEAKER_01: So I that's funny that you said that about like the doctor leaving, because remember, I remember, I think this is probably when we were rooming together at in Bradenton or whatever, but you had taken one of the NSCAA courses and they knew who you were, and you were the substitute teacher, as you used to say.
8:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, still doing doing the director uh shit or whatever.
8:55
SPEAKER_01: And uh you got not like you were already a licensed, you were already on US like soccer staff for education, and then you got docked points for like not getting out there fast enough or something like that, or that was your correction, and you were like, wait a minute, when the when paramedics walk out of the walk out of the never run, they never run because they gotta like assess the situation, stay calm, because if they're running, what is the patient or what is the person that needs them?
9:26
SPEAKER_00: And their own heart rate, right?
9:28
SPEAKER_00: You know, they lose their sort of calmness, if you will.
9:30
SPEAKER_00: That was the analogy that they used at U.S.
9:32
SPEAKER_00: Soccer.
9:33
SPEAKER_00: Then I was always curious about United Soccer Coach's pathway, the NSCA at the time.
9:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I had always heard really good things about their coaching ed.
9:42
SPEAKER_00: So uh I said to myself, I don't feel comfortable skipping to like the premier diploma.
9:49
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna start where everybody else starts.
9:51
SPEAKER_00: So I started this national diploma, you know, because a lot of people like I just teach now grassroots used to be the E, and now D licenses.
9:59
SPEAKER_00: It's a common question.
10:00
SPEAKER_00: And I would always say, oh, race is a swear word, but I would always say, um, well, I've heard, well, I think uh other high school coaches have taken it, club coaches have had a good experience, but I didn't know.
10:15
SPEAKER_00: And I said, if I'm gonna walk down this road, if I'm gonna, if this is my path, I need to live it, you know, and I shouldn't be skipping anything.
10:23
SPEAKER_00: I should go through a process like anyone else.
10:25
SPEAKER_00: So I yeah, I took the national diploma and um I I honestly don't remember as a national or advanced national, but that was a criticism, not that I'm a fast walker.
10:35
SPEAKER_00: I was always too slow to play soccer.
10:38
SPEAKER_00: However, uh, I walked out kind of deliberate on purpose because one of the, I mean, when we talk and we think about it this way, there what's happening on the ball, what's happening near the ball, what's happening away from the ball.
10:49
SPEAKER_00: And the coach needs to be able to see all those lenses.
10:53
SPEAKER_00: And the coaching schools didn't use that terminology or vernacular, but they would say you're not only fixing or addressing what's happening on the ball, you gotta impact every other player.
11:04
SPEAKER_00: If you're gonna freeze it and stop it, it can't be about one or two players.
11:08
SPEAKER_00: It's gotta be about how that picture relates for the greater good in your rhythm of your team, whatever your topic is.
11:15
SPEAKER_00: So um Craig Carlson, I think, who's leads Wisconsin coaching, great guy, old soul, great guy.
11:24
SPEAKER_00: And uh just love being around him, like so funny and so good.
11:29
SPEAKER_00: And he will say that a lot.
11:31
SPEAKER_00: He probably got it off Jim Launder, who ran Wisconsin for a long time.
11:34
SPEAKER_00: Is Jim still with us?
11:36
SPEAKER_00: He uh I think he's working for the Federation still.
11:39
SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay, good.
11:40
SPEAKER_00: Um, sort of in retirement, can pick his spots, but he's given so much to the game, he still is, and the game's better to have him in it.
11:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, he was assisting the forward Madison, the USL one.
11:50
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
11:51
SPEAKER_00: Um, and then he was, I don't think he's full-time with the state association, but he still works for U.S.
11:56
SPEAKER_00: Soccer.
11:57
SPEAKER_00: I think he's still in the coaching ed.
11:58
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
11:58
SPEAKER_00: Loves to give back to the game.
12:00
SPEAKER_00: I think Craig got it from Jim of like, hey, what's happening on the ball, what's happening near the ball, and what's happening away from the ball.
12:06
SPEAKER_00: And that coaching tree in that world came from Bob Gansler.
12:10
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
12:10
SPEAKER_00: He ran, you know, they they were not all, but they he he's the he's the OG of that coaching tree over there, the godfather.
12:20
SPEAKER_00: So um, I don't know this to be true, but I think that phrase came from Bob Gansler.
12:28
SPEAKER_01: How quickly did you start coaching and then get right into the coaching education?
12:32
SPEAKER_01: Because you coached my D license.
12:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was young.
12:35
SPEAKER_01: When I was 19, I want to say I was 19 or 20, and you were the head of my D license at Wixham.
12:43
SPEAKER_01: And it was you and Andy Vanover.
12:45
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
12:45
SPEAKER_00: How old are you now?
12:46
SPEAKER_01: I am 41.
12:47
SPEAKER_00: Okay, 49.
12:49
SPEAKER_01: And then it was um uh I want to say Nick Darren was some did something with you too.
12:55
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
12:55
SPEAKER_01: And then, and then you might remember this class specifically because of two guys that were in it.
13:01
SPEAKER_01: They were already legit coaches.
13:03
SPEAKER_01: It was Mark Franklin and Tony Deakin.
13:06
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
13:07
SPEAKER_00: Man, I miss Tony.
13:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I do too.
13:09
SPEAKER_00: What a guy, man.
13:10
SPEAKER_00: I still use some activities and sayings that Tony shared with me when we coached the Madonna Women together and working in the club for a long time.
13:18
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
13:19
SPEAKER_00: And he was just uh he's a different cat, but just a beautiful man.
13:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I miss him.
13:25
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I mean, I was so nervous when the testing portion came, and I had to coach Tony in my topic.
13:34
SPEAKER_01: And Tony's just like, breathe, like under his breath, telling me he's like, just relax, because he was probably seven years, six or seven years older than I was.
13:44
SPEAKER_01: And ton of experience.
13:46
SPEAKER_01: And just had so much more experience.
13:48
SPEAKER_01: I was 19 and like, you know, 20.
13:50
SPEAKER_00: But he was a quarter guy, he could master the the ball and the player on the ball, yeah.
13:55
SPEAKER_00: Um, and could deliver the method and how to teach technique and skill, not just technique of going to a disc and doing a double step over, but where's the pressure coming from?
14:05
SPEAKER_00: Dribble in, run out, uh, get him on the wrong foot, uh, attack the heel.
14:10
SPEAKER_00: And so some of the things that come to mind when I think of him in terms of his coaching rhythm.
14:14
SPEAKER_00: But he also went through UEFA licensing.
14:17
SPEAKER_00: He also could look off the ball and understand spacing.
14:21
SPEAKER_00: You know, athletic athletic Bill Bao, they talk about the relationship to the player and the ball, the relationship to the player and his or her teammates.
14:30
SPEAKER_00: Now, part of that's social, and part of that is spacing and construction.
14:34
SPEAKER_00: If you're gonna have a 10 that doesn't defend, then you need a couple sixes to carry the water, right?
14:38
SPEAKER_00: And that many society and that ecosystem, what is the rhythm of the team in that in that little structure?
14:44
SPEAKER_00: How do they work and combine with each other?
14:46
SPEAKER_00: So it's relationship to ball player, relationship to teammates, relationship with the opponents, then relationship to space.
14:54
SPEAKER_00: You know, and Tony didn't use that language, but he taught that way.
14:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it's not common that I hear that stuff.
15:02
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, he was he was so good for the game.
15:05
SPEAKER_00: Taught me a lot.
15:06
SPEAKER_00: I love sharing the game with him.
15:08
SPEAKER_01: Do you think that uh coaches skip uh not skip steps, but do you think that a lot of coaches skip portions of that?
15:17
SPEAKER_01: Because you said the relationship with the ball and relationship with the with your teammates on the field and relationship to space.
15:24
SPEAKER_01: I feel like so many coaches want to skip uh the relationship with the ball.
15:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
15:30
SPEAKER_01: And they want to go right into team tactics and game situations and stuff like that.
15:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, I think there's some, I think part of that is where are they comfortable and what gives them their sense of satisfaction and value.
15:48
SPEAKER_00: So for coaches that I see in coming into like coaching at like D licenses and such, they're there to give back the game.
15:57
SPEAKER_00: They're not soccer natives.
16:00
SPEAKER_00: They are they were baseball or football or their parents coaching their kids.
16:05
SPEAKER_00: They don't know all the nuances of technique and body shape because they haven't lived it.
16:10
SPEAKER_00: Where they could teach me a lot about how to shoot a basketball or swing a baseball bat.
16:14
SPEAKER_00: But they understand the invasion sports.
16:17
SPEAKER_00: We're gonna defend something, we're gonna attack something.
16:20
SPEAKER_00: Hockey, lacrosse, even American football, basketball for sure.
16:24
SPEAKER_00: Even the court sports, tennis, volleyball.
16:26
SPEAKER_00: What space am I taking away?
16:27
SPEAKER_00: What space do I want to exploit?
16:29
SPEAKER_00: They feel comfortable with that from the other sports that they've played.
16:33
SPEAKER_00: So I think part of it is where they're comfortable.
16:37
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think part of it is what their content knowledge is.
16:40
SPEAKER_00: And then the social forces, in my opinion, are about outcome.
16:47
SPEAKER_00: Can you win the game?
16:49
SPEAKER_00: Even at really young ages, whether that's the investment parents are making financially or time commitment, or coaches want to advance their own sort of pathway, and they feel like if they win more, that will happen.
17:03
SPEAKER_00: Um, and the whole system, I think, rewards team development over player development.
17:10
SPEAKER_00: Right in America, when I go to Clairefontaine in France, when I was at IAX, when I'm in Argentina at Estudiantes, I'm I'm in Argentina Estudiantes for like a week, and uh I never saw kids smile.
17:24
SPEAKER_00: It was crazy.
17:25
SPEAKER_00: But they train, I mean, they train like dogs.
17:28
SPEAKER_00: Well, like the third or fourth day we're going there, it's sort of out in an agricultural area, not not in a city, not like Boca and River, and uh beautiful area, by the way.
17:39
SPEAKER_00: Um, but we're out these dirt roads, and I see like this shiny material through the trees, like leaves, and I'm like, like sun's reflecting off, and I'm like, it's in the morning, I'm sipping on some coffee, like brain fog, trying to wake up, you know, and uh being a mubbit.
17:58
SPEAKER_00: And uh I'm like, hey man, like what is that over there?
18:03
SPEAKER_00: And he goes, Hey, I don't remember the percentage he told me, but it's almost three-quarters of the kids in their youth academy, they live out in this sort of sort of agricultural area.
18:16
SPEAKER_00: There's no running water, there's no toilets.
18:19
SPEAKER_00: I mean, they're like living off the land.
18:21
SPEAKER_00: And I it just blew my mind, you know.
18:23
SPEAKER_00: I lived lived in Redford most of my adult life.
18:26
SPEAKER_00: I grew up in Lavonia, Michigan.
18:28
SPEAKER_00: When you go on a YouTube video or you look at a website, you don't you don't live it like that.
18:35
SPEAKER_00: And I didn't stay there long.
18:37
SPEAKER_00: I was a guest, I just observed for a little bit, I'm in and I'm out, back to work.
18:42
SPEAKER_00: Um but when you're thinking about how players are developed, if you part of it is you have to understand who they are and what situation they're coming from.
18:52
SPEAKER_00: So the pressure those kids felt was the job.
18:58
SPEAKER_00: You're gonna be the breadwinner as the kid.
19:01
SPEAKER_00: Our kids play soccer.
19:03
SPEAKER_00: For us, our kids is play, it's a hobby, so to speak, for most of our kids.
19:09
SPEAKER_00: For them, that was their work.
19:12
SPEAKER_00: More important than going to school.
19:14
SPEAKER_00: More important than going to school.
19:16
SPEAKER_00: Where in the environment that I grew up in, if you if you ever talk to a parent about well, you maybe your kid doesn't go to school and just trains more often, you know, it's like crazy.
19:28
SPEAKER_00: So, what are our values?
19:30
SPEAKER_00: You know?
19:31
SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's a totally different world.
19:34
SPEAKER_00: I'm standing next to an agent and I was just so naive.
19:36
SPEAKER_00: I'm just vomiting dumb questions out of my mouth, and he's pulling pulling out a markburger.
19:42
SPEAKER_00: I go, hey, at what age?
19:45
SPEAKER_00: At what age can you like sell a player like to a different club?
19:49
SPEAKER_00: Like, that's why you're here.
19:51
SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm here to I want to coach and get better.
19:54
SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm just here to learn.
19:56
SPEAKER_00: And he looked at me like that was the dumbest thing he could.
20:00
SPEAKER_00: He goes, any any age, man, any age.
20:04
SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, we have child labor lawsuit.
20:07
SPEAKER_00: Exactly, right?
20:08
SPEAKER_00: So it's like if if we're if if the world's not black and white in terms of right or wrong, if it's green, we're not incentivized to pour ourselves into player development because we're not selling.
20:20
SPEAKER_00: And I don't mean we as you or I, I just mean our soccer community overall.
20:24
SPEAKER_00: Of course.
20:25
SPEAKER_00: So, and I'm not trying to cast judgment, um, but understanding the why is really important to me, not to say uh it's right or wrong or I like it or I don't, but to understand that.
20:36
SPEAKER_00: And then you go watch those kids, then then I look through a different lens when I see those kids train.
20:41
SPEAKER_00: And it was, I mean, the amount of repetitions those kids got in, and I mean focused, not you know, juggle a ball while a couple other guys get a drink of water while the coach sets up next activity of just are we investing time or spending time?
20:55
SPEAKER_00: I mean, really, really, really shaping a ball and just rep after rep after rep.
21:01
SPEAKER_00: Um, because for them it was work.
21:03
SPEAKER_00: And I don't say that to to boast about their player development, right?
21:10
SPEAKER_00: And I don't say it to turn my nose down at them, you know, it's just that's the reality.
21:17
SPEAKER_00: So it's it's it's really different in other parts of the world, and I don't know that it's better or worse, but it's different.
21:25
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I when you go to all these spots and you go to IAX and you go to Argentina, is it is it more the culture that develops the player rather than coaching?
21:42
SPEAKER_01: Because I remember Todd Derby, right?
21:44
SPEAKER_01: Todd came back and I think he he went somewhere overseas, maybe Spain.
21:49
SPEAKER_01: And it was just rondos, rondos, rondos.
21:52
SPEAKER_01: And he was like, Oh, they're not doing anything differently over there, coaching wise, for the most part.
21:58
SPEAKER_01: So he was uh Like, what is the big difference?
22:01
SPEAKER_01: We're I'm running the same sessions as they are over there, but it's that attention to detail, it's the way out for those kids that, hey, I gotta get better.
22:10
SPEAKER_01: Like, if I don't play on the weekend, I have to go home and hit a ball against a wall a thousand times or work on my fitness level or do something because I feel like the player is invested.
22:20
SPEAKER_01: And you said invested, are we investing time or spending time?
22:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a big deal.
22:25
SPEAKER_01: Is it is the player invested here as much as over there?
22:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I do think a lot of it's culture in terms of um parents knowing the game, grandparents knowing the game, family members knowing the game, and there's different depth of language and understanding when we're watching a game, right?
22:42
SPEAKER_00: They're looking through a much, much deeper lens.
22:45
SPEAKER_00: And all that is a part of the socialization of the player.
22:48
SPEAKER_00: Um and then part of it is sort of geography, like northern Europe.
22:54
SPEAKER_00: I mean, now technology of fields going underground stadiums, artificial lighting.
23:00
SPEAKER_00: But if you go back to like, let's say the 90s, I feel my age.
23:05
SPEAKER_00: Um teams in Northern Europe would play a much more vertical style.
23:09
SPEAKER_00: I call the real estate game, you know, combine all Y, get to the N line, cut back cross type thing, so it's safer.
23:16
SPEAKER_00: Ball gets stuck in the mud, and you're back third, and you're playing eight, 10, 12, 15-yard passes, and you're opening up uh to build out, you know, to play.
23:26
SPEAKER_00: Uh, I'm being a little bit of a smarter, I like the beautiful game.
23:29
SPEAKER_00: It's like, well, you're exposed, you know.
23:31
SPEAKER_00: So in those environments, I think culturally, it was more celebrated and applauded, like Italy in the 90s, like they applaud defending.
23:40
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
23:41
SPEAKER_00: You know, games you were.
23:42
SPEAKER_00: 442, yeah.
23:44
SPEAKER_00: You know, like just lock it down, block of eight.
23:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:47
SPEAKER_00: And just like that was culturally celebrated.
23:49
SPEAKER_00: They're really good at it.
23:51
SPEAKER_00: Northern Europe, how do you be effective?
23:53
SPEAKER_00: Southern Europe, Portugal, Spain, you know, pa, a little bit short, a little bit buildup.
23:58
SPEAKER_00: I was on the ball.
23:59
SPEAKER_00: So there's a different rhythm.
24:00
SPEAKER_00: Same in Africa.
24:01
SPEAKER_00: Like I went to Ghana a little bit.
24:03
SPEAKER_00: The guy I met in France, used to work with the French Federation for 18 years, like, really good.
24:07
SPEAKER_00: I met him on a coach's trip.
24:08
SPEAKER_00: We stayed in touch.
24:09
SPEAKER_00: He coached Red Bull Ghana's pro team.
24:12
SPEAKER_00: He's like, hey, if you want to take a real trip, you know, come back to France.
24:16
SPEAKER_00: We'll go to Ghana.
24:17
SPEAKER_00: I want to see my old players.
24:19
SPEAKER_00: They built a school, the teachers, whole thing.
24:21
SPEAKER_00: I go, hey man, I'm in, you know.
24:24
SPEAKER_00: Um, and it was amazing.
24:25
SPEAKER_00: They played just like Southern Europe, you know, bah.
24:28
SPEAKER_00: I mean, just beautiful players.
24:29
SPEAKER_00: I mean, so good.
24:31
SPEAKER_00: So that's culture.
24:33
SPEAKER_00: Um, so uh the challenge, I think, of the US is what's an American meal anymore?
24:41
SPEAKER_00: You know, and and my my great-grandparents escaped northern Italy in World War I when Campo got bombed to shit.
24:49
SPEAKER_00: You know, my grandfather was a prisoner of war in World War II.
24:52
SPEAKER_00: You know, we don't have a Jewish culture, but when Germans invaded Poland, you know, my grandpa fought and was taken prisoner.
25:00
SPEAKER_00: Instead of going on the train, they said, Well, you look pretty fit when you go in the potato fields and farm for the German soldiers, and he was able to escape.
25:09
SPEAKER_00: You know, so I my story is of immigration.
25:14
SPEAKER_00: Um, so I don't want to say good or bad or right or wrong or anything like that.
25:20
SPEAKER_00: Um, but you know, in some communities, like I watched a men's team Alianza, uh, one of the kids, a high school kid, uh is look looking to come play for us in the fall, southwest Detroit.
25:32
SPEAKER_00: Okay, well, an American male in southwest Detroit uh might be, you know, tacos or whatever, right?
25:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, heavy Hispanic neighborhood there, right?
25:41
SPEAKER_00: Um, where on the west side of Michigan or different part of the country, an American male may mean something different.
25:49
SPEAKER_00: Well, the same for soccer.
25:50
SPEAKER_00: You know, these guys that come in to run coaching ed, uh, you get a German, and then there's a Belgium, and there's a Dutch, you know, a couple Americans, and then you know, it's sort of right now, Didier from France.
26:03
SPEAKER_00: Not always, I swear word, but typically when the guys come in from a country in Europe, they're like, hey, I know America's a big country, and I, you know, I get it, I get it.
26:15
SPEAKER_00: And then after two years, if you ask them, it's like I knew it was a big country in terms of space, but I didn't realize how diverse it is.
26:24
SPEAKER_00: It's really similar to the European continent versus Belgium or France or Italy, and they all have their own styles, so to speak, right?
26:33
SPEAKER_00: Part of it's maybe weather, part of its resources.
26:36
SPEAKER_00: So it's hard to wrap our arms around it, you know.
26:41
SPEAKER_00: Matt Crocker just left for Saudi Arabia, right?
26:44
SPEAKER_00: And the people, all right, well, maybe he's taking a bag of money.
26:47
SPEAKER_00: You know, I don't know, but and I don't know the details, but third hand, you know, he was really interested in the youth system and trying to get it more streamlined.
26:56
SPEAKER_00: Right.
26:57
SPEAKER_00: And that's a monster.
27:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and then he saw it and he was like, uh, I'm leaving.
27:04
SPEAKER_01: It's a monster.
27:05
SPEAKER_00: Well, and like when Coach Kay from Duke Basketball, Mike Khrushchevsky was at the end of his tenure, used the language, we should have a czar of college basketball.
27:13
SPEAKER_00: It's different, it's revenue sport, it's not an Olympic sport or a non-revenue sport, soccer, softball.
27:19
SPEAKER_00: And I don't mean to say any of that dismissively, but basketball, the recruiting, the AAU, the money.
27:24
SPEAKER_00: It's a different when Nick Saban, right, took his flowers, left Alabama, rightfully so.
27:31
SPEAKER_00: He said, well, there should be a czar of college football.
27:34
SPEAKER_00: It's it's its own, it's not like the rest of the college sports, right?
27:38
SPEAKER_00: Alabama coming to play U of M football is a little bit different than the wrestling team, you know, going to UCLA or a soccer team or softball team, you know, like so um I think we have to be careful.
27:52
SPEAKER_00: I think we have to be careful.
27:53
SPEAKER_00: It's it's it's such a broad topic.
27:56
SPEAKER_00: And think about player development.
27:58
SPEAKER_00: I mean, some of these, some of these, yeah.
28:01
SPEAKER_00: I'm thinking about I had an opportunity to work with Christian Pulisik for just just one year.
28:06
SPEAKER_00: Eric Rudland had him, Nick Darren had worked with him.
28:09
SPEAKER_00: And I kind of co-coached the team with Mark.
28:12
SPEAKER_00: I it's not like I was the guy.
28:14
SPEAKER_00: My only claim to fame is not to screw him up.
28:19
SPEAKER_00: I was listening to a podcast recently, I don't remember which one.
28:23
SPEAKER_00: Um, and kind of saying this third hand.
28:25
SPEAKER_00: The the guest on the podcast said when he was at La Macia, he had lunch or dinner with the guy that coached their U-14 team that had Javi and Yasta Massi.
28:36
SPEAKER_00: And that was his directive at La Macia.
28:38
SPEAKER_00: Just don't mess them up.
28:39
SPEAKER_00: Just don't mess them up.
28:40
SPEAKER_00: Just nurture the person.
28:43
SPEAKER_00: They have the flair, they have, they have these gifts.
28:47
SPEAKER_00: Try to make them into a whole player.
28:50
SPEAKER_00: Okay, but but your your primary objective is just not to mess.
28:54
SPEAKER_00: You don't need to make them.
28:55
SPEAKER_00: Right.
28:56
SPEAKER_00: Just just don't mess them up.
28:57
SPEAKER_00: Just just compliment, support, guide.
29:00
SPEAKER_00: Um but it was about, you know, they talk a lot about Lamasia, like take take care of the person.
29:07
SPEAKER_00: Right.
29:07
SPEAKER_00: You know, and the player will come along with it.
29:10
SPEAKER_01: And I think that what we've been kind of shoved down our throats over the last 16 years is that LaMacia is the way to develop players.
29:20
SPEAKER_01: So we have to we have to take their curriculum.
29:24
SPEAKER_01: And it's like, no, we need to take how they nurture and how they develop and how they make sure that you don't ruin them, you know.
29:32
SPEAKER_01: And I feel like sometimes we see players and then we take away something that made them special, right?
29:39
SPEAKER_01: Because they want we want them to play our way or this system or this style.
29:44
SPEAKER_01: And we don't nurture the players like they do.
29:47
SPEAKER_01: I think we're getting better at it.
29:49
SPEAKER_00: I do.
29:50
SPEAKER_00: The coaching ed, and there's some criticisms with that, has really swayed that way in terms of how you relate to the player, how you speak to the player.
30:00
SPEAKER_00: Um, and the coaching ed courses are so finite in terms of time and limited.
30:06
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I'm kind of specifically thinking about the grassroots and the D licenses, more entry-level with US soccer.
30:14
SPEAKER_00: They took, you got to pick what you're gonna highlight in a course, what topics do you really want to cover, and where's there an expectation?
30:21
SPEAKER_00: Um, so a lot of the technical stuff, like I can remember an E license grading parents who grew up playing, you know, baseball or basketball.
30:32
SPEAKER_00: They're just there to coach a grassroots team.
30:34
SPEAKER_00: I don't like labels, but like a rec team for the sake of the conversation.
30:38
SPEAKER_00: And just like, I just want my kids in the neighborhood want to play soccer and I'm I'm one to coach.
30:43
SPEAKER_00: Right.
30:44
SPEAKER_00: Um, but they didn't know all the technical nuance, lock the ankle, balance follow-through, whatever.
30:50
SPEAKER_00: And they had a rough idea of the tactics, and I'm like grading them according to the standards of the time.
30:58
SPEAKER_00: And that was intimidating.
31:00
SPEAKER_00: And I would, I would, man, if I went to a lacrosse license or a wrestling license or hockey, I got man, uh fish out of water, right?
31:09
SPEAKER_00: Right.
31:09
SPEAKER_00: So you walk them out on their shoes, and there's um, I really appreciated their bravery to step out of their comfort zone for the sake of their kids and their community.
31:20
SPEAKER_00: That pendulum has since swung towards less, it's not less important, but it's maybe more important to make sure the kid enjoys the game to continue playing, to learn as he or she goes, versus, you know, uh a coaching point on striking the ball or receiving out of the air, you know.
31:45
SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's much more about supporting the person in the grassroots level now.
31:52
SPEAKER_00: And there's some criticisms to that, like, hey, we've gotten away from the ball, we've gotten too far away from the field.
31:57
SPEAKER_00: Right.
31:57
SPEAKER_00: We still need to do a better job to develop players.
32:01
SPEAKER_00: Um, one of the things you mentioned earlier uh tipped my my bad memory.
32:08
SPEAKER_00: You were talking about sort of different cultures in Europe.
32:11
SPEAKER_00: I had the opportunity in a coach's trip, we had a private audience, talk about open mouth insert foot.
32:18
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I was getting the king of something.
32:24
SPEAKER_00: Uh so uh Gerard Hoolier, people were too like, I think, awestruck and a little bit intimidated to ask him any questions.
32:31
SPEAKER_00: He spoke to us for a little bit.
32:33
SPEAKER_00: So he was long past coaching and you know, French national team, but he was still working for the Federation, and he was kind of contracted through Red Bull.
32:41
SPEAKER_00: So he was kind of um an advisory to Red Bull soccer or football, you know, kind of global director, if you will.
32:49
SPEAKER_00: Um, so we had an audience with him, there's like 12 of us, and listened to him for a while, his thoughts, and nobody wanted to ask him a question, right?
32:57
SPEAKER_00: So he's like, Well, do you guys have anything?
32:59
SPEAKER_00: I'm kind of he didn't say it this way, the way I think of it is he's talking at us instead of with us, and we were all happy to listen, trust me.
33:07
SPEAKER_00: And um, so he's nobody wanted to ask a question, so I'm like, all right, I'll open mouth insert for here.
33:14
SPEAKER_00: So I thought I threw him a softball.
33:16
SPEAKER_00: And the look he gave me, he was a really great guy.
33:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but the look he gave me just I wanted to crawl into a hole.
33:24
SPEAKER_00: So my silly question was, hey, do you think you've been in America now and you you've been around it with New York Red Bull and the Youth Academy.
33:32
SPEAKER_00: Like, do you think do you think the Americans are catching up at all in the in the global game, you know?
33:39
SPEAKER_00: And he just he just he just kind of took a sharp look at me and then kind of smirked, you know, kind of backed off the facial expression a little bit.
33:49
SPEAKER_00: He goes, son.
33:51
SPEAKER_00: You been to Claire Fontaine on this trip, right?
33:54
SPEAKER_00: I go, yeah, oh yeah, unbelievable.
33:56
SPEAKER_00: You know?
33:57
SPEAKER_00: He goes, all right, so how often do the kids train?
34:00
SPEAKER_00: I go, well, Monday through Thursday, they train twice a day, morning, evening.
34:04
SPEAKER_00: They train Friday morning, and then they go back to their families on the weekend and play for their club.
34:09
SPEAKER_00: They get a game a week with their club.
34:11
SPEAKER_00: It's really important for the socialization to get the kids back to their families and playing in their club to get get a good game.
34:19
SPEAKER_00: Um so he goes, All right, so nine times a week they train.
34:26
SPEAKER_00: How many times a week do your kids train?
34:28
SPEAKER_01: Oh my god.
34:31
SPEAKER_00: And he backed it up with you know, just a real sincere laugh.
34:35
SPEAKER_00: He goes, Hey, it's you know, appreciate your question, but the standard's the standard, you know.
34:40
SPEAKER_00: So, and that's changing a lot, you know.
34:43
SPEAKER_00: I'm kind of dating myself with this coaching ed trip years gone by, but before there were any on the less residency account, now real Salt Lake, and there's a lot more investment into player development.
34:55
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
34:55
SPEAKER_00: So um that answer I think would change a little bit now for a small percentage.
35:02
SPEAKER_00: Right.
35:03
SPEAKER_00: But but and and if you think about it, these guys are these kids at Clairefontaine, that's a small percentage too.
35:10
SPEAKER_00: And they have regional training centers all around France and Clairefontaine's found the infamous one because that's where the the coaching ed stuff is, that's where the national teams train, you know.
35:19
SPEAKER_00: That's that's kind of the nerve center or mothership, as I call it inappropriately.
35:23
SPEAKER_00: But um, it's only the top kids, you know, it's it's not like every kid in France trains nine times a week, right?
35:31
SPEAKER_00: So, and they have some of the same challenges at IAX.
35:34
SPEAKER_00: The kids are on their phones, you know, strict street soccer.
35:37
SPEAKER_00: When I went when I was at IX, one of the coolest things, you're probably too young for this, but when I was a kid, we would play, not well, we would play where high velocity is, but that was like this softball, softball diamonds, and like this cleats restaurant.
35:55
SPEAKER_00: Right on the parking lot, they would roll out that old school astral turf right on the parking lot and put up like hockey boards, put up a dome.
36:04
SPEAKER_00: So they had like this boarded like 6v6 field, and then next to it was like this 3v3 kind of a warm-up field, yeah, you know, and at high extended three fields with boards, you know, and uh we're leaving training, and it just by silly coincidence, I'm walking off the field, and the guy next to me is like their youth academy director.
36:27
SPEAKER_00: Well, a lot of their guys coaching in their youth system are former pros.
36:33
SPEAKER_00: So after they get done with their training session, which is really about a lot of functional training, a lot about like skills, technique under pressure.
36:45
SPEAKER_00: In what part of the field are you, what position are you playing?
36:47
SPEAKER_00: It's very specific, even at young ages.
36:50
SPEAKER_00: Um, and he goes, Hey, we just don't think kids play anymore.
36:54
SPEAKER_00: We used to not do this, but they're not playing on their own.
36:57
SPEAKER_00: Whether it's safety concerns or technology, but we need to create an environment where they're solving problems on their own.
37:04
SPEAKER_00: We need to foster some creativity, some flair.
37:07
SPEAKER_00: It has to be a part of our structure for the total player.
37:11
SPEAKER_00: So they have, and the coaches would join in and kids of different ages and the in the in the IXU teams.
37:18
SPEAKER_00: They didn't have to.
37:20
SPEAKER_00: Um, it was like an Uber taxi cab title wave before the training.
37:26
SPEAKER_00: If you're part of IX, they will offer working parents, they will pick the kids up.
37:32
SPEAKER_00: The club will pick them up.
37:33
SPEAKER_00: Real Madrid did the same thing.
37:35
SPEAKER_00: And then the parents are supposed to pick them up and take them home uh after the training, reconnect with the family, go get dinner.
37:42
SPEAKER_00: Um, but before the training, like there's like hundreds of yellow cars coming in, you know, that are all on contract for IX, dropping the kids off.
37:53
SPEAKER_00: But afterwards, parents are kind of hanging around, talking to each other.
37:58
SPEAKER_00: Kids are hanging around and they're playing like these street games.
38:01
SPEAKER_00: And the the former pros that are now coaching are like doing rainbows over the kids, flicking the ball, playing the ball off the boards, just uh kind of the opposite of how their training sessions looked.
38:10
SPEAKER_00: They're ultra scripted, if you will.
38:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I just thought that was an incredible balance that really stuck with me.
38:17
SPEAKER_00: We had Mike uh Macko, you remember Mackle in Chicago Magic?
38:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
38:21
SPEAKER_00: Now coach at Chicago Fire 2 Pro Team, the second, I'm the last next pro.
38:26
SPEAKER_00: We had them come in for MSYC for coaching ed.
38:28
SPEAKER_00: And um he goes, Hey, I'm good on the field.
38:32
SPEAKER_00: You know, uh, I don't feel as comfortable in the classroom.
38:35
SPEAKER_00: I'm not an academic, you know, I'm about the game, I'm on the field.
38:38
SPEAKER_00: I go, well, you you built one of the uh maybe the top boys side club in the country in your heyday.
38:46
SPEAKER_00: Like people want to know how you built the club.
38:49
SPEAKER_00: You made some players, Matt.
38:50
SPEAKER_00: You you there's a lot of stars over that batch, national championships, when there was really only one pathway to a national youth national championship, right in that era.
39:00
SPEAKER_00: So um people want to hear that.
39:03
SPEAKER_00: And he was like, You think so?
39:06
SPEAKER_00: You know, I go, Oh no, I know so.
39:07
SPEAKER_00: You know, I don't know much, but I know that.
39:10
SPEAKER_00: Um, and it was awesome.
39:12
SPEAKER_00: But one of the things that was what he I asked a question on there were a lot of different questions, but the one I want to know is what which program in your club do you think had the most impact with your players?
39:25
SPEAKER_00: If you had to pick one.
39:27
SPEAKER_00: And he said for their like first and second teams, their like top team, like A and B team, if you will, on the weekends that they didn't have games, they had a weekend off in the fall and spring, they would create like a mock street soccer, like the high school age kids would all come to the field.
39:46
SPEAKER_00: Coaches were there, to kind of referee.
39:49
SPEAKER_00: They could coach individuals, but it was sort of a Rick Patino, like, hey, assistants get eight seconds to make a point.
39:55
SPEAKER_00: That's it.
39:56
SPEAKER_00: You can't get your point across in eight seconds while we're playing.
39:58
SPEAKER_00: Don't talk.
39:59
SPEAKER_00: Talk to the guy afterwards.
40:01
SPEAKER_00: This is we're in the flow.
40:03
SPEAKER_00: And that was kind of what they talked about with Chicago Magic.
40:07
SPEAKER_00: And there was a time with the Richardsons where the Chicago Soccer kids and the Chicago Magic kids would train together.
40:13
SPEAKER_00: And this idea of iron sharpens iron, like, let's get all the high school boys together, let's get the two top clubs together, let's mix them, and just for the love of the game, just let them play.
40:24
SPEAKER_00: So coaches can coach an individual, but you can't stop it.
40:27
SPEAKER_00: And just there to keep score, referee, make sure you know no one gets hurt.
40:31
SPEAKER_00: And he said that was like the most impactful program to develop players and teams in his club.
40:37
SPEAKER_00: Isn't that amazing?
40:38
SPEAKER_00: And it was like, we think about the costs to make all this happen, field costs.
40:42
SPEAKER_00: If you want good coaches, you got to pay them, right?
40:44
SPEAKER_00: It's not top-down money.
40:46
SPEAKER_00: You know, I was in Cologne, Germany, and a guy was kind of speaking, it's just like a year ago, uh, speaking in kind of a disparaging way about all the money and you soccer.
40:56
SPEAKER_00: And I'm thinking to myself, you got like a 60,000 seat stadium.
41:01
SPEAKER_00: Like you, you guys are paying for your coaches too.
41:03
SPEAKER_00: You're paying for your fields too, which is coming from the first team.
41:07
SPEAKER_00: It's coming from the fans.
41:08
SPEAKER_00: The the money's coming from somewhere else.
41:11
SPEAKER_00: We're we're not top down.
41:12
SPEAKER_00: Like I kind of went on the rails here with Nick Saban, Zara football, yeah.
41:17
SPEAKER_00: We're not top down, we're we're we're community driven.
41:20
SPEAKER_00: We're we're U.S.
41:21
SPEAKER_00: soccer's voting structure was grassroots.
41:25
SPEAKER_00: You know, when it really took hold in the 70s, yeah, you could form a club, yeah, you could join this league, yeah, you can vote in these elections for MSYSA, MSYSA can vote for U.S.
41:35
SPEAKER_00: soccer elections.
41:36
SPEAKER_00: It's all it's all bottom-up.
41:38
SPEAKER_00: Where when our peers come in from Europe, and it's like, you know, a guy comes in from Germany, he's like, well, why doesn't US soccer just say it has to be this way?
41:49
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
41:50
SPEAKER_00: Like it has to be this league, like limit the travel, limit the tournaments, limit this, limit that.
41:55
SPEAKER_00: I go, well, like capitalism, you know, it's hard to argue against it, but it's there's some pros and cons.
42:02
SPEAKER_00: You know, if that coach is unhappy, he can join a different club.
42:05
SPEAKER_00: If that group of coaches are happy, they start their own club.
42:08
SPEAKER_00: If they don't like the league, they join their own league, you know, they make their own league.
42:12
SPEAKER_00: You know, so it's like uh it's hard to kind of it's not hard to set the standards, but it's it's hard to kind of limit this.
42:22
SPEAKER_00: It's a different ecosystem because the money's all the parents believe in it, they support it.
42:27
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
42:27
SPEAKER_00: But they're the true voters, right?
42:29
SPEAKER_00: If it doesn't work, the parents won't show up.
42:31
SPEAKER_00: They they may or may not fill out a survey of how the club's doing, but they vote with their money, right?
42:36
SPEAKER_00: Do I want my kid playing this club or I don't?
42:38
SPEAKER_00: And there's such a bandwidth of different reasons, you know, it's hard to kind of kind of dial all that in.
42:45
SPEAKER_00: So it's a pretty holistic topic.
42:49
SPEAKER_00: It's wild and it's complicated.
42:50
SPEAKER_01: And a lot of people don't know the history.
42:52
SPEAKER_01: They don't know that U.S.
42:54
SPEAKER_01: soccer was founded in 1913, and they didn't truly get into youth soccer until 2007.
43:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, with the with the DA.
43:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because U.S.
43:03
SPEAKER_01: youth soccer was its own separate entity that kind of came in and AYSO, and and and then now it's it's crazy because you have competing governing bodies, and where else do we have competing governing bodies?
43:17
SPEAKER_01: I shouldn't say governing bodies, but I mean competing.
43:21
SPEAKER_01: You have U.S.
43:22
SPEAKER_01: club soccer that filled a void because U.S.
43:24
SPEAKER_01: soccer, I think, made a mistake in 07 when they said, our girls are fine.
43:30
SPEAKER_01: We don't our girls we were one of the best in the world.
43:34
SPEAKER_01: We'll get to the girls later.
43:35
SPEAKER_01: We need to focus on the men.
43:37
SPEAKER_01: And then that allowed U.S.
43:39
SPEAKER_01: club soccer to really take hold and have the EC and L on everything, and then they all do kind of what they want.
43:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think the genders were a big part of that story, but I think I don't know this to be true.
43:51
SPEAKER_00: My understanding is the main driver of US Club is we want to take more ownership as soccer people of the player experience.
44:00
SPEAKER_00: They felt like there were too many people who were non-soccer people who were making decisions.
44:06
SPEAKER_00: And I'm a USYS guy, USYS supporter.
44:10
SPEAKER_00: So I'm not trying to throw stones in the glass house.
44:12
SPEAKER_00: But when I listened to the other side, like what really launched U.S.
44:16
SPEAKER_00: club soccer?
44:17
SPEAKER_00: It's like, well, a bunch of soccer guys got together frustrated about State Cup has to be played at this time, or you have to play in this league, or you can't pass guard kids, or you can't travel out of state.
44:28
SPEAKER_00: You know, there were all these sort of limitations.
44:31
SPEAKER_00: When I was a kid growing up, and Lavonia, Vardar and Wolves were in Lavonia, and I'm 76, but prior to me, Lavonia Wolves was sort of sponsored through the Lavonia YMCA.
44:45
SPEAKER_00: But there was a Wolves-men's team, like Paul Sakluna and those guys played on the men's team.
44:49
SPEAKER_00: And then Vardar, Vardar had a men's team.
44:53
SPEAKER_00: Rick Sowicky, his son Aaron was a really good player.
44:56
SPEAKER_00: Rick Sowicke played college football.
44:59
SPEAKER_00: You know, I don't mean to say this in a disparaging way, but Rick Sowicky worked, you know, for Bill Brown Ford, Pat Milliken Ford, selling cars.
45:08
SPEAKER_00: Like he wasn't a soccer native, so to speak.
45:10
SPEAKER_00: But him and his wife Lynn just so passionate about the game.
45:14
SPEAKER_00: They ran Vardard and Lavonia for a long time.
45:17
SPEAKER_00: Well, if you had a men's team, the rules at the time were you could get kids from any community.
45:24
SPEAKER_00: But if you were a community team, you could only get kids from that community.
45:27
SPEAKER_01: It had to be a certain percentage of Lavonia kids.
45:30
SPEAKER_00: So Plymouth only had kids from like Plymouth or Plymouth can't.
45:33
SPEAKER_00: And Lavonia, the like the Lavonia Club, could only have kids from like Lavonia.
45:37
SPEAKER_00: Maybe go by.
45:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
45:39
SPEAKER_00: So like each of these communities just had kids from their own.
45:42
SPEAKER_00: I I'm gonna be naive here and say from their own zip code, if you will, where Varnar and Wolfs could get kids from anywhere and weren't hiding the fact they wanted to be good.
45:52
SPEAKER_00: So it was just sort of meritocracy.
45:54
SPEAKER_00: Well, the rules changed later, right, to allow everyone to play in that same platform.
46:00
SPEAKER_00: Like a team from Plymouth could have kids from anywhere.
46:02
SPEAKER_00: But when it first started, it was very pro-community, some would say.
46:08
SPEAKER_00: Or if you look at the other side of that coin, it was pretty restrictive.
46:11
SPEAKER_00: Like I live in Redford now.
46:13
SPEAKER_00: Why shouldn't I be able to play at Livonia?
46:15
SPEAKER_00: You know, so it's to your point, it started from that grassroots era that was just supposed to support community involvement, kids out playing on parks that you didn't have to rent, you know, you didn't need a certificate of insurance, you know, on and on and on.
46:30
SPEAKER_00: So um, you know, we live in a different era.
46:33
SPEAKER_00: So I'm not here to say it's better or worse, but it's a different world.
46:37
SPEAKER_00: But these I think these US club soccer guys wanted soccer people making soccer decisions.
46:43
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
46:43
SPEAKER_00: Um, so and I'm not saying that I I agree with it or not, but I I just wanted to understand, like, hey, why did why did this start?
46:52
SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like, well, we go to USYS, this league, this state board, this and that.
46:57
SPEAKER_00: You know, we're we're not allowed to develop our players how we want to develop them.
47:01
SPEAKER_00: You know, aid segregation is an example, right?
47:04
SPEAKER_00: If you have South America, you have Europe.
47:07
SPEAKER_00: I was in Ghana, this kid was like 12 years old, 13 years old, playing with like kids that are 17, 18 years old.
47:15
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was they played him at like right back, you know.
47:18
SPEAKER_00: You could see the left winger was not going into a hard tackle, but the speed of the game was flying, and he was able to cope.
47:24
SPEAKER_00: He couldn't cope with physicality, but they didn't put him under that pressure.
47:27
SPEAKER_00: Right.
47:28
SPEAKER_00: But that kid's developing different.
47:30
SPEAKER_00: That 12-year-old's developing different um versus what we're accustomed to.
47:35
SPEAKER_00: No, you know, playing your age group, you know, this and that.
47:38
SPEAKER_00: So um it's it's it's to your point, it's complicated.
47:43
SPEAKER_00: I I don't have a good punchline.
47:45
SPEAKER_00: I you know I think we've come a long way.
47:48
SPEAKER_00: Um, I think we're doing well, but we have we have a long way to go, you know, and I don't think our women's side has gotten any worse in any way.
47:56
SPEAKER_00: No, I think the other countries have started to support their women's side.
48:00
SPEAKER_00: So the standards are just, you know, really, really, really.
48:04
SPEAKER_00: I mean, Title IX and Women's College Soccer really ushered in, you know, prominence for our US national team.
48:11
SPEAKER_00: Um, but now the other countries are really pouring into their women's side.
48:16
SPEAKER_00: So it's fun to watch.
48:18
SPEAKER_01: And I think going back to the culture part, I think that's why we've not caught, but that's why the rest of the world has made a gigantic leap in the women's game so quickly because they grew up waking up on Saturday mornings and having breakfast and talking about the Manchester United game.
48:37
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
48:37
SPEAKER_01: And it's just in that culture.
48:39
SPEAKER_01: And then their brothers played and their grandpas played and their grandmas played, and it's just crazy.
48:44
SPEAKER_00: I can remember talking about being a dumb American.
48:48
SPEAKER_00: I can remember going to watch, I was coaching the Manana Women, so it's 01 to 05 at the time.
48:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Tony Deakin was coaching a Birmingham Blazers team.
48:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay.
48:58
SPEAKER_00: Remember that, remember that?
49:00
SPEAKER_00: And they were so Paul Thomas, who is not the DOC.
49:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we worked together in MSY.
49:06
SPEAKER_00: I kind of lean more towards ODP.
49:08
SPEAKER_00: He does more coaching.
49:08
SPEAKER_00: I kind of assist him in coaching that he's really, really highly, he does a lot, teaches a lot of B licenses.
49:13
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
49:14
SPEAKER_00: Great, great job.
49:15
SPEAKER_00: Just so good in so many areas.
49:19
SPEAKER_00: So Paul Thomas's parents were visiting from Manchester, England, you know.
49:24
SPEAKER_00: And I was so embarrassed.
49:27
SPEAKER_00: Like, I have this politically incorrect notion of the quote unquote soccer mom that's changed now because so many of the moms in current clubs have played.
49:36
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
49:37
SPEAKER_00: But back then, most I felt like most of the soccer moms just hadn't played, they played maybe a sport, but they hadn't played as much soccer as they have now, right?
49:47
SPEAKER_00: We've put out some good generations of really, really good players.
49:51
SPEAKER_00: Um, but the way Paul Thomas's mom was talking about the tactics of the game while we were watching.
49:59
SPEAKER_00: I was like, you know, Paul saw my face.
50:03
SPEAKER_00: He's looking at me teasingly, like thinking you Muppet.
50:07
SPEAKER_00: Um, he goes, Zee, my parents met.
50:10
SPEAKER_00: They met at a Man City game, you know, like that's culture.
50:15
SPEAKER_00: You know, um, but she was so switched on.
50:18
SPEAKER_00: Uh really just so impressive.
50:21
SPEAKER_00: Uh so Paul is a product of that culture.
50:25
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
50:25
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
50:26
SPEAKER_00: Um, which is generational, you know.
50:28
SPEAKER_00: So uh that's when I started to kind of, you know, that those moments, you know, really kind of take away my ignorance and real small strokes, and like, oh man, I never thought about that.
50:42
SPEAKER_00: So at that time I I had never been to Europe in that at that point in my life.
50:47
SPEAKER_00: Um so it was really profound, you know, where it's like, hey, that that you can't dismiss culture.
50:55
SPEAKER_00: You know.
50:55
SPEAKER_01: How many spots have you been to go and do some coaching education?
51:00
SPEAKER_01: And and so you've been to Argentina and Ghana and France and IX.
51:05
SPEAKER_00: Uh oh my gosh, open mouth insert foot.
51:09
SPEAKER_00: Argentina, Brazil, the Netherlands, Spain a couple times, France a couple times.
51:17
SPEAKER_00: Um I took a trip.
51:19
SPEAKER_00: Uh do you remember Dario Grady with Crew Alexander?
51:22
SPEAKER_00: Real good youth academy in England.
51:24
SPEAKER_01: Is that when you went to the Liverpool game?
51:26
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
51:26
SPEAKER_01: At the cop?
51:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
51:27
SPEAKER_01: That story?
51:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
51:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we were just gonna I have a weird memory, man.
51:32
SPEAKER_00: It's much sharper than mine.
51:34
SPEAKER_00: My pencil's not too sharp, but yours is much sharper than mine.
51:37
SPEAKER_01: That cop story is hilarious.
51:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we were just gonna go kind of silly tourists, taking photos and buy a scarf and watch the game.
51:44
SPEAKER_00: And then ended up in the cop and um, but we were really there.
51:48
SPEAKER_00: We wanted to see some game.
51:49
SPEAKER_00: I wanted to see Man You, I wanted to see Liverpool, I wanted to see some games, but we were there to really watch what they did at Crew Alexander with their youth players.
51:58
SPEAKER_00: Um, so talk about being uh silly and naive.
52:03
SPEAKER_00: I'm pulling out a camera, like recording an activity.
52:07
SPEAKER_00: Two guys could, sir.
52:10
SPEAKER_00: I need your I need to see that camera.
52:11
SPEAKER_00: Uh we need to delete that or I need to take it.
52:15
SPEAKER_00: I couldn't like I just like got beat red of them.
52:18
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, oh my god, I wasn't even, I'm just here to record the activity for coaching.
52:22
SPEAKER_00: They're thinking I'm like an agent, like looking to get replayers, you know.
52:27
SPEAKER_00: Like, how naive could I be?
52:30
SPEAKER_00: But you gotta go do that stuff to live it, to learn, to understand.
52:34
SPEAKER_00: You know, it's not something you could pick up on a website, you know.
52:37
SPEAKER_00: So, um, I mean, I kind of being the old man of the room here, but like the amount of time I spent, you asked earlier when I got into coaching.
52:47
SPEAKER_00: I'm a failed goalkeeper who played at Madonna.
52:50
SPEAKER_00: Pete Alexander coached me, and Rick Larson was assistant, and Shookie came on to uh coach the goalkeepers.
52:57
SPEAKER_00: So I really like profound sort of mentors, if you will.
53:01
SPEAKER_00: And at that time, we're talking, I played 94 and 97.
53:04
SPEAKER_00: So at that time, they were like, hey, there's not enough goalkeeper trainers, like you should start training goalkeepers.
53:11
SPEAKER_00: And um, in a stroke of you know, somebody looking out for me, or or coincidence, however you think of it, Doug Lanefeld and Lars Richters and Dirk Willeford were all back in school at Madonna to get their teaching certificates.
53:28
SPEAKER_00: Doug played at Michigan State, got a degree.
53:30
SPEAKER_00: Willie played at Oakland, got a degree, Lars played at Yale, got a degree.
53:35
SPEAKER_00: And then so could have been running the country.
53:38
SPEAKER_00: Um, but anyway, they were in the same education classes I was in at Madonna University.
53:43
SPEAKER_00: So they kind of looked at me a little bit skeptical at first, you know.
53:46
SPEAKER_00: But we had classes together, and then we're like, hey, you know, um, what's it like playing?
53:52
SPEAKER_00: And are you are you interested in coaching, you know?
53:55
SPEAKER_00: So I started as a kind of a goalkeeper trainer.
53:58
SPEAKER_00: Um, I don't remember if it was a lot, Doug, Doug's wife's like, Are you the goalie guy?
54:04
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I don't know, I guess so at JC Park.
54:07
SPEAKER_00: And uh I would just train goalkeepers.
54:11
SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't a transactional thing, it was just just trying to find a path, you know, and what I love to do.
54:18
SPEAKER_00: And um, kids were eager, kids wanted to learn, work hard, like coaches were awesome because I was trying to help.
54:26
SPEAKER_00: So I would train keepers and they would go out with their teams.
54:29
SPEAKER_00: Well, instead of getting in my car and going home, because I didn't have anything better to do with my wife, I'm like going to watch Derek Willough for Willie run a session and Tim Ernst run a session and Doug Lanifield run a session and Lars Richters run a session.
54:42
SPEAKER_00: And Rick at that time was with the Wolves as well.
54:45
SPEAKER_00: I ended up assisting him on a couple teams.
54:48
SPEAKER_00: Well, for I mean, the World Wide Web was just was just gonna wasn't common, right?
54:55
SPEAKER_00: Right.
54:55
SPEAKER_00: I didn't even have an email address.
54:57
SPEAKER_00: So I would just, I was embarrassed to do it out in front of people.
55:00
SPEAKER_00: So I would just sit in my car and write down all the activities that they did.
55:05
SPEAKER_00: And so, okay, well, he worked on flank play.
55:08
SPEAKER_00: All right, so what activities did he use?
55:10
SPEAKER_00: How much space?
55:10
SPEAKER_00: How many players?
55:11
SPEAKER_00: What were his coaching points?
55:13
SPEAKER_00: He worked on pressing or counterattack, whatever the topic was.
55:17
SPEAKER_00: I just created like this notebook, you know, and that was my that was my real learning.
55:22
SPEAKER_00: That's your education.
55:24
SPEAKER_00: The courses, the licenses were so impactful.
55:28
SPEAKER_00: The content was impactful, but the instructor was the magic.
55:30
SPEAKER_00: Like I had Tom Durkin for the B and the A just by chance.
55:34
SPEAKER_00: And like, I mean, I hung on every word he said, you know, and I just had so much respect for his content knowledge.
55:41
SPEAKER_00: And he could be gruff, but kind of a smart aleck.
55:44
SPEAKER_00: And um, I like that.
55:46
SPEAKER_00: Um, that appealed to me.
55:49
SPEAKER_00: Um, but he was so good.
55:51
SPEAKER_00: So I don't mean to be dismissive of the licenses, but the real learning for me was out outside the course.
55:56
SPEAKER_00: It's it was it was the hard yards, it was it was day to day, it was hour by hour, uh, no shortcuts.
56:03
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I just I thought that was an investment of my time.
56:07
SPEAKER_00: I didn't think I was spending my time.
56:08
SPEAKER_00: I didn't, I wasn't disinterested, I wasn't frustrated.
56:12
SPEAKER_00: I was pretty insecure because I played with some really good players.
56:16
SPEAKER_00: I was not, you know, here I am at Lavonia Churchill.
56:20
SPEAKER_00: Jeff Cassar's two years ahead of me, went on to play with the MLS.
56:25
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
56:25
SPEAKER_00: Cal Kalishewski was one year ahead of me, could have gone to Stanford.
56:30
SPEAKER_00: He's a brilliant mind, went to UAD, played with a bunch of the Pardon guys, but I think he's in their Hall of Fame.
56:36
SPEAKER_00: You know, they won the conference.
56:38
SPEAKER_00: Um, and Cal was really, really, really good.
56:42
SPEAKER_00: Um, could could have been a pro.
56:44
SPEAKER_00: Uh, but they also had like Jeff Tom, they had they had great players at UAD at that time, and Mo had it rolling.
56:50
SPEAKER_00: Um, but so I'm I'm at the same high school as these kids.
56:54
SPEAKER_00: Mike Gentile, yeah, Jeff Cassar, Scott Lampier, they're MLS was just starting out.
57:00
SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot of college kids that were going later with three kids from the high school I went to all later on went to the MLS.
57:06
SPEAKER_00: You know, Travis Ruetta, Lavoney Stevenson, Mike Gentili, and Lampier.
57:10
SPEAKER_00: They won a national championship with Jim Launder and Ian Barker at University of Wisconsin.
57:15
SPEAKER_00: You know, so to get these four guys from the same town drafted in the MLS, I grew up playing with those guys.
57:24
SPEAKER_00: Not that I was anywhere near those guys, but I would, Jeff Cassar would call, we had telephones on the wall, you know, call the house.
57:32
SPEAKER_00: Just wanted a sparring partner, just wanted to train.
57:35
SPEAKER_00: You know, even when I was in college, I can remember he was at Ford International.
57:39
SPEAKER_00: I was starting Madonna.
57:40
SPEAKER_00: I had done a workout earlier in the day, and uh Lavone YMCA at the time was like a decent, I could walk there.
57:47
SPEAKER_00: A lot of my childhood was spent there goofing around playing basketball and stuff.
57:51
SPEAKER_00: So Jeff Cass was like, hey, I want to do a workout, you know, come meet me at Lavoney YMCA.
57:56
SPEAKER_00: And I had already done a workout, but I never wanted to tell him no.
57:59
SPEAKER_00: He was like so good and so driven.
58:03
SPEAKER_00: And I just, he wasn't hard on me.
58:05
SPEAKER_00: He was super supportive.
58:06
SPEAKER_00: He was really hard on himself, really, really, really, really driven.
58:10
SPEAKER_00: Um I'd already done a workout.
58:13
SPEAKER_00: He was like, no, let's go work out.
58:14
SPEAKER_00: I had something, I didn't want to tell him I already worked out.
58:18
SPEAKER_00: I guess I'm gonna work out again.
58:21
SPEAKER_00: I'm like jogging on the treadmill.
58:24
SPEAKER_00: He's running a few minutes late.
58:26
SPEAKER_00: He just reached over and put my treadmill on 10 miles an hour and put his own because we're doing two miles, you know.
58:33
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, oh man, then like after one mile, I'm like, hey Jeff, I actually worked out earlier.
58:39
SPEAKER_00: You know, no, no, no, we're we're we're finishing this workout.
58:42
SPEAKER_00: And I'm just felt like I was running for dear life.
58:46
SPEAKER_00: So I'm a I'm a product of that environment.
58:48
SPEAKER_00: We also like played a lot of street hockey and basketball and home underity.
58:52
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was Jeff was an unbelievable tennis player and really good basketball player as well.
58:57
SPEAKER_00: I remember like I knew I wasn't good enough as a goalkeeper, I wasn't quick enough.
59:01
SPEAKER_00: I was I understood the game really well.
59:03
SPEAKER_00: I managed a lot, I managed a lot before things happened.
59:06
SPEAKER_00: Physically, I wasn't awful, but I was just dead nuts average.
59:10
SPEAKER_00: And those guys were special athletically.
59:12
SPEAKER_00: And Jeff told me, I still say this to goalkeepers when they ask me about what they should do outside of goalkeeper training.
59:18
SPEAKER_00: He said, play as much tennis as you can and as much basketball as you can.
59:22
SPEAKER_00: Even though you're not, you know, you might be a perimeter guy, get low, work on your rebounding, work on your body, box out, you know, you gotta, you gotta get dirty in there and work on your vertical, work on your timing.
59:36
SPEAKER_00: You gotta manage your box.
59:38
SPEAKER_00: And then I kind of was like dog watching TV when he said tennis.
59:42
SPEAKER_00: I kind of turned my head a little bit, you know, and he goes, Well, Mark, think about the 18 box, think about coming off your line, you know, they play a through ball over the top, you might go clear it out the 18 with your feet, you know, it's not all shot stopping.
59:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and then your movement side to side approaching the net.
59:56
SPEAKER_00: And he said, you know, hey, you're a pretty, you're a pretty nice guy.
59:59
SPEAKER_00: You always want to be a good teammate.
1:00:01
SPEAKER_00: He goes, in tennis, it's all just you.
1:00:04
SPEAKER_00: Yes, you got to be accountable to you, you gotta do something individually, you know.
1:00:09
SPEAKER_00: So I would, I wouldn't, some of my buddies were on the tennis team, so I would call them.
1:00:13
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, hey, can I just get a workout?
1:00:15
SPEAKER_00: I was I wasn't beating them in tennis, I can assure you.
1:00:19
SPEAKER_00: I was trying not to embarrass myself.
1:00:21
SPEAKER_00: But I would be a good enough sparring partner to entertain them, to kind of challenge them a little bit.
1:00:25
SPEAKER_00: Um, so they were willing to do it, you know.
1:00:28
SPEAKER_00: So uh I did that quite a bit, you know.
1:00:30
SPEAKER_00: But that was his advice.
1:00:32
SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, I ended up playing at Madonna because it was local, you know, and they were just starting a program.
1:00:38
SPEAKER_00: I was graduating high school in '94, and Madonna 94 was the first year we had a men's soccer program.
1:00:43
SPEAKER_00: So a lot of the guys I went to school with buddies were not sure.
1:00:46
SPEAKER_00: Do we go and serve in the US military?
1:00:49
SPEAKER_00: Do we go to school craft college?
1:00:51
SPEAKER_00: Some guys are going to Michigan State, some guys are going to Western.
1:00:54
SPEAKER_00: You know, we just didn't know.
1:00:55
SPEAKER_00: Um, and okay, Madonna's having a team, so a handful of us were like, yeah, let's go check it out, you know, a local school and see if we can keep playing.
1:01:04
SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's just kind of born from there.
1:01:07
SPEAKER_00: Um, so I played 94 to 97, and I'll bet you I started coaching goalkeepers um 95 or 96, you know.
1:01:17
SPEAKER_00: Um, so I can remember a banco or Jim Launder saying, Oh, it takes 30 years to learn the craft.
1:01:25
SPEAKER_00: And I'm approaching we're in 2026, right?
1:01:29
SPEAKER_00: So if I'm 95 or 96, said that.
1:01:32
SPEAKER_00: We're pro I I need I'm a slow learner, so I'm gonna need another 30 years.
1:01:36
SPEAKER_00: I get it though to figure it out.
1:01:37
SPEAKER_01: Do you feel like that's true?
1:01:39
SPEAKER_00: Well, I do feel like um there's a balance of enthusiasm and passion and being closer to the age group that you're coaching, like a peer relationship.
1:01:48
SPEAKER_00: There's something I remember Mike Ruddy saying, don't I was really young coaching them down to women.
1:01:54
SPEAKER_00: Um he said, Hey, you you can get a lot accomplished because you're so close in age, you can be among them.
1:02:02
SPEAKER_00: He didn't say it that way, it's the way I think of it.
1:02:04
SPEAKER_00: He goes, as you get older, it gets a little bit harder to relate to players.
1:02:09
SPEAKER_00: So there's a trade-off of being perceived to be a peer versus more of like an adult figure and a I don't know about an authority figure, but kind of a more viewed more as a parent.
1:02:19
SPEAKER_02: Right.
1:02:20
SPEAKER_00: And but there's a trade-off and experience where there were no shortcuts.
1:02:25
SPEAKER_00: Um I mean, we have scars, you know, we wins and losses.
1:02:28
SPEAKER_00: The scars are beautiful, it's part of our story, and um, you know, we should we should celebrate them, not be embarrassed by them.
1:02:35
SPEAKER_00: But um that's how you know you've been in the game, you know.
1:02:39
SPEAKER_01: You talked about being like feeling like an imposter when you started out.
1:02:43
SPEAKER_01: So did I, man.
1:02:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:02:45
SPEAKER_01: I uh I think that I think that we go through stages where I think that at first we're we feel like we don't know anything, then something changes and we think we know everything.
1:02:56
SPEAKER_01: And then in the later stages, maybe that's that 30-year stage, is that we realize that it take literally takes a village, yeah, that it has different uh impacts and and we don't know the way, and there's multiple ways.
1:03:11
SPEAKER_00: Have you um I don't read as much as I used to, I'm embarrassed.
1:03:15
SPEAKER_00: I listen to a lot of podcasts and audio books.
1:03:17
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if I'm busier or I'm lazier, um, feel busier.
1:03:22
SPEAKER_00: Um called The Second Mountain.
1:03:24
SPEAKER_00: It's a really important book for me.
1:03:26
SPEAKER_00: Uh, I took the DOC license actually, it's now renamed the technical leadership.
1:03:30
SPEAKER_00: Okay, got therapeutic.
1:03:31
SPEAKER_00: It was, I didn't know this at the time when I signed up for it.
1:03:35
SPEAKER_00: We're rolling off the sidewalk on the rush and going to work for the JAX and a coaching ed specific role.
1:03:41
SPEAKER_00: Uh, so I had signed up for the DLC license.
1:03:44
SPEAKER_00: Um, thinking, man, I've I've been a director, I had an opportunity at a pretty young age, had some, you know, good decisions.
1:03:51
SPEAKER_00: I've certainly made some some poor ones based on information I had at the time, you know, whatever, the lens we look through.
1:03:57
SPEAKER_00: Um, so the DLC license, I just took it, you know, a few years ago, three years ago, and uh it's been renamed, but it's sort of therapeutic because I was sort of at the end of a tenure of trying to run a club for over 20 years, you know, and um it's really powerful um in terms of when we make decisions when you're we're moving, you know, you've recently, you know, we're talking about the individual small group training and now the podcast stuff.
1:04:23
SPEAKER_00: What do you what do you run from and what do you run to when we make these types of life decisions?
1:04:28
SPEAKER_00: Whether it's relationships or our craft or you know, every every every path has a heart, you know, and you take it till it ends, you know, and then you another door opens.
1:04:37
SPEAKER_00: So you find your new path.
1:04:39
SPEAKER_00: So um, I was taking this DLC license, which is for aspiring directors who are going to run clubs and current directors, and I was on the way out, I was rolling up the sidewalk.
1:04:52
SPEAKER_00: Um, so but it was really powerful in terms of uh being able to look back, you know, and really look in the mirror.
1:05:01
SPEAKER_00: Um, so I felt like so many times running the club.
1:05:05
SPEAKER_00: I'm in a New York subway, things are just flying by, you know, coaching teams, parents, board, you know, coaches, the other coaches, players at every age, are we hitting the standards?
1:05:16
SPEAKER_00: I mean it's just fields, referees, it's just all-encompassing, you know.
1:05:21
SPEAKER_00: Um, unless you live it, you know, all the work that's required off the field, um, hard to quantify.
1:05:31
SPEAKER_00: Uh, I can remember a parent who was super cool.
1:05:33
SPEAKER_00: We were at uh I was at the Rusty Bucket with some coaches in Plymouth, right by NCP in Northville.
1:05:40
SPEAKER_00: And uh he had a couple drinks in him, we were some buddies, and uh, we're gonna have a coaches meeting with just the directors after training one weeknight.
1:05:49
SPEAKER_00: We're like, I don't know, let's get dinner and then open up our laptops and whatever.
1:05:53
SPEAKER_00: And uh he made some sort of smart outcomment.
1:05:57
SPEAKER_00: He was super cool, he wasn't like passive aggressive or anything.
1:06:00
SPEAKER_00: But he's like, you know, what do you what do you guys, you know, you're not going home, huh?
1:06:04
SPEAKER_00: You guys over here having a couple beers?
1:06:05
SPEAKER_00: So I'm like, oh, actually, we're gonna have dinner and have a meeting.
1:06:08
SPEAKER_00: And he kind of laughed and let it roll off his shoulder and walked on.
1:06:11
SPEAKER_00: And then he's sitting like a couple tables over with some guys, some of his friends, and we're they're trying to kick us out and we're still on our computers, you know.
1:06:19
SPEAKER_00: And he goes, Hey, uh I I just want to apologize.
1:06:24
SPEAKER_00: I didn't I didn't realize like how much you guys put into this when you're not on the field coaching, you know.
1:06:32
SPEAKER_00: And the guy grew up playing, he was a pretty good basketball player, you know, high real high-end job in the automotive industry, you know, and it just unless you live it, you know, it's hard to hard to quantify it.
1:06:43
SPEAKER_00: I can remember I was an NCP on a Friday night, eight o'clock game, and uh porn rain.
1:06:51
SPEAKER_00: And kids were like juniors or seniors in high school, and um there was no necessary reason for me on a Friday night to be standing and watching that game.
1:07:03
SPEAKER_00: I wasn't like having a parent meeting.
1:07:05
SPEAKER_00: I wasn't there, wasn't anything for me to do other than to watch players and support the coach, you know.
1:07:10
SPEAKER_00: So halftime I walk around the field and when he's a restroom and one of the soccer moms going to the bathroom.
1:07:17
SPEAKER_00: She knew me for 10 years, you know, not well, but just parenting the club.
1:07:21
SPEAKER_00: It's like, Z, what in the hell are you doing out here?
1:07:26
SPEAKER_00: You don't have anything in your life that you should be doing.
1:07:30
SPEAKER_00: You'd rather be doing standing here watching my kid play in the ring.
1:07:33
SPEAKER_00: Like, we don't want to be in this game.
1:07:35
SPEAKER_00: You know, why are you here?
1:07:37
SPEAKER_00: You know, and uh you just get so locked in, you know, just you just you just don't see the big picture if you're really just pouring yourself into it, you know.
1:07:48
SPEAKER_01: When you wanted when you felt like you were gonna be an imposter to running a club, yeah, like what was that transition like?
1:07:56
SPEAKER_00: Hard, yeah.
1:07:56
SPEAKER_00: I beat myself up a lot and still do probably.
1:07:59
SPEAKER_00: Um the way that I kind of justified it was like you get the way I the story that I told myself was you I need to put more time in than anyone else.
1:08:11
SPEAKER_00: I need to study harder, I need to travel and experience this.
1:08:15
SPEAKER_00: So people who've lived it, you know, where it's in their culture.
1:08:18
SPEAKER_00: Um the only way I felt like I would be able to do a worthy sort of job, if you will, was in what I thought was sort of outworking others.
1:08:31
SPEAKER_00: Because as a player, I had to outwork others just to play around good play.
1:08:38
SPEAKER_00: You know, there's a lot of other guys I played with who were so much better.
1:08:42
SPEAKER_00: They worked hard, but a lot of it was easier for them.
1:08:44
SPEAKER_00: You know, it came more naturally.
1:08:46
SPEAKER_00: Um so that I I think I I applied that to my to my work and coaching in the game.
1:08:54
SPEAKER_00: Um and we're trying to run a club was you, I just told myself a story that I had to outwork everyone else, or it wouldn't work.
1:09:04
SPEAKER_00: And nobody said that too.
1:09:06
SPEAKER_00: The board I was answering to nobody said that to me.
1:09:09
SPEAKER_00: I told myself that.
1:09:10
SPEAKER_00: Um, and that was the way that I thought I could sort of be of service.
1:09:15
SPEAKER_00: Right.
1:09:16
SPEAKER_00: I started talking about the second mountain.
1:09:17
SPEAKER_00: So the first mountain we tend to want to get the title Financial Security, Stability, kind of make our name, if you will.
1:09:30
SPEAKER_00: The second mountain is more like that's maybe less less important, but it's more about value.
1:09:36
SPEAKER_00: What can I what value am I offering?
1:09:38
SPEAKER_00: How can how can I contribute?
1:09:40
SPEAKER_00: How can I give back?
1:09:41
SPEAKER_00: How can I leave it there and I found it?
1:09:43
SPEAKER_00: So I think I don't know about all, but I think most of us kind of go through that kind of a trajectory um in our work and relationships, you know, our our personal finances.
1:09:55
SPEAKER_00: Is this sustainable?
1:09:57
SPEAKER_00: You know, um, so uh the second mountain, yeah, really, really helped me.
1:10:03
SPEAKER_00: I I used it in my DLC license presentation, you know, a lot of excerpts from that book because it spoke really clearly to me about my own life.
1:10:11
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I thought it was I thought it was good.
1:10:14
SPEAKER_01: I mean, and then you talk about I mean, I love talking to you.
1:10:21
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's been a while.
1:10:24
SPEAKER_01: I mean, we talked a little bit at the expo last year.
1:10:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, because that's what we're doing.
1:10:28
SPEAKER_00: Yes, I was running around chasing my tail.
1:10:30
SPEAKER_00: I'm excited for the expo this year because it's what I love about the expo, there's no club colors, it's not college or high school or club.
1:10:40
SPEAKER_00: It's it's just like can we all get better at our craft?
1:10:44
SPEAKER_00: You know, and I'm 49, I still got excited this year to go to the United Soccer Coaches Convention in Philly because it's like I get to listen to all these different presenters and pick which field session I'm going to, or this tactical coach, or that periodization, or that mental health.
1:10:59
SPEAKER_00: And just there's such a broad bandwidth of topics, and I feel like I need to get better at all of them.
1:11:05
SPEAKER_00: So the the the idea, the cultural architect, Paltinian, is like, and I think a lot of us, quite frankly, not to take any credit away from them, have had this vision of it'd be great to do that in Michigan.
1:11:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because we're in the Michigan mafia, you know.
1:11:22
SPEAKER_00: But you know, that requires time, resources.
1:11:27
SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm not brave enough to get over that finish line, you know, like that's a that's a tipping point moment to take on that kind of a project.
1:11:35
SPEAKER_00: So I admire them in a lot of ways, but that's one specific one.
1:11:38
SPEAKER_00: So when Paul started talking about it, I'm like, hey, I'd I'd love to help.
1:11:43
SPEAKER_00: I love going to conventions, I'm about coaching ed.
1:11:47
SPEAKER_00: The licenses are critical, but a lot of learning's going on outside courses, right?
1:11:51
SPEAKER_00: Right.
1:11:52
SPEAKER_00: Um so to bring people in who don't have to fly and get a hotel, more local Midwest coaching community, it's more accessible.
1:12:02
SPEAKER_00: Um, I'd love to be a part of it and help.
1:12:05
SPEAKER_00: And then we started having some meetings and kicking it around a little bit.
1:12:09
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, hey man, I I don't know him that well, but I have such a tremendous amount of respect for him and I've known him for a long time.
1:12:16
SPEAKER_00: Ian Barker used to run the convention.
1:12:20
SPEAKER_00: You know, why don't we see if I know he's you know semi-retired, he still does work for U.S.
1:12:24
SPEAKER_00: soccer and he's still club consulting, he still is in the game.
1:12:29
SPEAKER_00: Um, but he I he might be interested in this, you know.
1:12:32
SPEAKER_00: I get his number.
1:12:33
SPEAKER_00: Do you want me to call him?
1:12:34
SPEAKER_00: Paul's like, oh, for sure, yeah, I'd love to have Ian involved.
1:12:37
SPEAKER_00: Um so I talked with Ian, you know, and I said, hey, I don't know, you know, what the economics are.
1:12:45
SPEAKER_00: I'm just in the coaching ed space, but you're the number one guy to help us to help us lead this, you know.
1:12:51
SPEAKER_00: If you're interested in available.
1:12:53
SPEAKER_00: And um he has a tremendous amount of respect for an admin.
1:12:57
SPEAKER_00: Angie used to, they used to work in tandem, I think, running the conventions.
1:13:01
SPEAKER_00: She's like really sharp in all the logistics, all the details, um, soccer specific, and then just the general stuff that people like me don't think about.
1:13:09
SPEAKER_00: What about the hotels?
1:13:10
SPEAKER_00: Who's doing registration?
1:13:11
SPEAKER_00: Who's the concierge for all the you know, presenters, you know, like all the logistics behind it?
1:13:18
SPEAKER_00: I'm just the I'm the Muppet looking to sharpen my pencil and take notes for the presenters, you know, and learn.
1:13:24
SPEAKER_00: But to run something like that, I mean, you talk about takes a village, um, and then some.
1:13:30
SPEAKER_00: Um, so Paul's flying the plane.
1:13:32
SPEAKER_00: And uh, I admire that because it's not an economic, you know, it's not that's not the incentive.
1:13:38
SPEAKER_00: It's just it's about it's about bringing people in the game to get a little bit better, you know, without having to necessarily get in a plane and pay hotels for a week at the at the convention uh Philadelphia next year, it's in Kansas City.
1:13:51
SPEAKER_00: Not everybody can do that.
1:13:53
SPEAKER_00: So Ian is like the technical lead, and I'm just supporting him a bit.
1:13:57
SPEAKER_00: Um, but I'm excited about it.
1:13:59
SPEAKER_00: So it's awesome with you.
1:14:00
SPEAKER_00: Last year was year one.
1:14:01
SPEAKER_00: We got started late, and um, but the content was great.
1:14:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, content was great, and uh we meet once or once or twice a week, putting a schedule together now, and uh it's gonna be sweet, man.
1:14:14
SPEAKER_00: I'm always thinking like, what I want to listen to this person, would I want to watch this person's field session?
1:14:20
SPEAKER_00: And the the best problem to have is when there's three or four things booked at the same time, and I got to make a decision of which one I'm gonna go see.
1:14:27
SPEAKER_00: Um, and we're gonna have that problem.
1:14:29
SPEAKER_00: You know, it's amazing to me in the coaching community how many are not talking about leaving it better than they found it, they're living it.
1:14:40
SPEAKER_00: There's so many people coming to present that are only doing it to share what they have.
1:14:46
SPEAKER_00: You know, there's no, there's no uh there's no big if we start getting 10,000 coaches, we'll talk about a budget.
1:14:51
SPEAKER_00: But right now it's all grassroots like, hey, are you want to come in and help us out?
1:14:55
SPEAKER_00: We're trying to build this event.
1:14:57
SPEAKER_00: And um the only no's are people have prior conflicts.
1:15:01
SPEAKER_00: Of course, they're available, they're in.
1:15:03
SPEAKER_01: Right.
1:15:04
SPEAKER_00: Um it's awesome.
1:15:05
SPEAKER_01: I just had Dave Diani on.
1:15:06
SPEAKER_00: Oh man.
1:15:07
SPEAKER_01: And he we started talking about the Expo, and I'm like, are you coming?
1:15:11
SPEAKER_01: And he's like, I he's I'm gonna try, but their preseason is starting in mid-July now.
1:15:19
SPEAKER_00: What a cool dude, man.
1:15:20
SPEAKER_01: He's great.
1:15:20
SPEAKER_01: He's awesome.
1:15:21
SPEAKER_01: I've never met him before.
1:15:22
SPEAKER_00: Oh, really?
1:15:23
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:15:24
SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm I just have a little bit of a connection to him because Spring Arbor and Madonna were sort of lost lost souls of the NAIA.
1:15:32
SPEAKER_00: I mean the Muppets.
1:15:33
SPEAKER_00: But um, he was a good player, and there's a lot of good players in the NAI, actually.
1:15:37
SPEAKER_00: He was good, but he was always just so salt of the earth.
1:15:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, credit his parents and his upbringing.
1:15:43
SPEAKER_00: We connected a lot through ODP, uh like just a mutual kinship, respect, camaraderie type thing, brotherhood, if you will.
1:15:51
SPEAKER_00: And um, there was a time when he was at Grand Valley, like there was like, I think just over 20% of his roster were girls from from Northville, you know, that had come through our our club, you know, and he just out of nowhere was I just not it's just so profound to me.
1:16:08
SPEAKER_00: Just I don't know where sent a text.
1:16:10
SPEAKER_00: They had won a national championship, and it was like two, three months because hey man, thank you for everything you did, like working with these players, you know.
1:16:18
SPEAKER_00: So it was cool.
1:16:19
SPEAKER_00: He didn't have to do that, yeah.
1:16:22
SPEAKER_00: Some really cool families had a lot of good success there.
1:16:26
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, you know, division two, so to speak, in terms of status, but I'm like, hey, in in every way, this is an elite program.
1:16:36
SPEAKER_00: And if I had kids, I would want my kids playing for Dave.
1:16:40
SPEAKER_00: You know, not to disparage anyone else, but of course his his soft skills, his values, and the way he coaches, his content knowledge, his experience, like what uh I'm I'm I think Haas has done such a great job at Michigan State, man, and Lou at Western.
1:16:57
SPEAKER_00: I mean, the Broncos are just flying over there, but Dave at Michigan, there's so many good coaches.
1:17:03
SPEAKER_00: It's crazy.
1:17:04
SPEAKER_00: Do you think we're spoiled?
1:17:05
SPEAKER_01: Are okay.
1:17:06
SPEAKER_01: First of all, are you presenting at the expo?
1:17:10
SPEAKER_00: I think so.
1:17:10
SPEAKER_00: I I I'm telling Ian that I'm planning B or plan Z, uh, depending on how how many other I'd rather listen than talk.
1:17:18
SPEAKER_00: Of course.
1:17:19
SPEAKER_00: Um, they asked me to present last year, and it was kind of a little bit of a little bit of a capstone of the deal, you see lights, like running a club.
1:17:28
SPEAKER_03: Right.
1:17:28
SPEAKER_00: You know, I presented that, which I thought had value um for coaches who were interested in that.
1:17:35
SPEAKER_00: Um, so I felt good about that.
1:17:37
SPEAKER_00: Um, we've talked about some topics.
1:17:39
SPEAKER_00: I just said, hey, a lot of these coaches locally have access to me through MSYSA or club, or I get texts and call, like, hey, can you talk on the phone or can you come watch my training?
1:17:51
SPEAKER_00: Or can we do a Zoom meeting and just here's what's going on with my team?
1:17:54
SPEAKER_00: So I'm pretty accessible, if you will, for like but a lot of these other guys that are coming in from planes, I'm like, let's make them the priority because we don't get to see them often or ever.
1:18:08
SPEAKER_00: You know, like let's let's let's make these other guys the priority.
1:18:12
SPEAKER_00: Um Erwin with connected the Mullenstein method, Renee Mullenstein's talk, he's not confirmed yet, but if he's available, he will.
1:18:22
SPEAKER_00: Um, I think it's gonna happen, but he's I mean he's in the World Cup, you know, so he's got some other things, he's got some other things on his plate.
1:18:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:18:30
SPEAKER_00: Um but schedule schedule permitting.
1:18:34
SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, so uh to have Erwin connected to Renee really helps.
1:18:39
SPEAKER_00: And he he wants to give back, you know.
1:18:41
SPEAKER_00: I asked Irwin, I'm like, hey, like the budget's pretty mod.
1:18:44
SPEAKER_00: Like to rent what was the suburban show place, the vibe.
1:18:47
SPEAKER_00: I don't know the numbers, but I'm like, it's a modest thing.
1:18:50
SPEAKER_00: This isn't about this isn't about transaction, this is about what's good for the game and making better coaches.
1:18:55
SPEAKER_00: So um, and he's like, no, Renee's on board, he's in, you know, if he's available.
1:19:00
SPEAKER_00: So um, yeah, we're waiting for confirmation.
1:19:04
SPEAKER_00: He's spinning some different plates, yeah.
1:19:11
SPEAKER_00: But we got it, it's I'm excited.
1:19:13
SPEAKER_01: Is Vermise coming back?
1:19:14
SPEAKER_00: We were able to bring him in to Michigan um for a club event.
1:19:17
SPEAKER_00: Scoby was telling me about that, and it was just the only problem is it ended, you know what I'm saying?
1:19:22
SPEAKER_00: That was the only problem is the day had to end.
1:19:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, just guy was gold and just just salt of the earth, man.
1:19:29
SPEAKER_00: Just hey, how can I help you guys?
1:19:30
SPEAKER_00: What what do you have questions about?
1:19:32
SPEAKER_00: And just on the spot, like I'm not good on the front foot, you know.
1:19:36
SPEAKER_00: Like I'm on the back foot.
1:19:38
SPEAKER_00: It takes me a while to take a question, listen, circle back.
1:19:41
SPEAKER_00: I mean, even doing this, you know.
1:19:43
SPEAKER_00: Um, he was just so sharp on the front foot of whatever anyone asked, and on the field, it was magic.
1:19:50
SPEAKER_00: I mean, he was it was special.
1:19:52
SPEAKER_00: The only problem with it is it had to end, you know.
1:19:54
SPEAKER_01: Was that like uh you're doing Paul?
1:19:57
SPEAKER_00: Actually, no, I I was organizing kind of a summit coaching ed.
1:20:02
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
1:20:02
SPEAKER_01: But I was like so just for all Jag's staff, all the all the locations come to Novi or Whis would yeah, yeah, some internal stuff.
1:20:11
SPEAKER_00: Most of the work that I do is specific to working with that coach and his or her environment on that day in real time.
1:20:19
SPEAKER_00: This is, you know, because if you have a meeting, let's I worked in Northville for a long time.
1:20:24
SPEAKER_00: Now Eric Wedland runs runs Northville.
1:20:26
SPEAKER_00: Well, Eric Wedland and Jeff Shook can use a different message than someone in the junior academy, a monotoman soccer player who's in his first season of coaching that's cutting his teeth.
1:20:37
SPEAKER_00: So to have one meeting for such a broad range of coaching experience is a difficult fit.
1:20:44
SPEAKER_00: When you want to honor everyone's time, like I'm investing minds, is am I making the most out of their time?
1:20:50
SPEAKER_02: Right.
1:20:50
SPEAKER_00: Or are we just punching the box having a meeting to have a meeting?
1:20:53
SPEAKER_00: So most of my work is with individual coaches in their environment, in the real world that they're kind of living with their team, you know, parent expectations, player development versus team development, where they're at, how are they feeling in their own journey?
1:21:10
SPEAKER_00: Um honoring them.
1:21:12
SPEAKER_00: You know, I appreciate your work, man.
1:21:13
SPEAKER_00: You're doing good work.
1:21:14
SPEAKER_00: I really like this, this, this, and this.
1:21:16
SPEAKER_00: And and next time, what what do you think about this?
1:21:20
SPEAKER_00: How did that go?
1:21:21
SPEAKER_00: What's a different way we can approach it?
1:21:23
SPEAKER_00: And just trying to troubleshoot and problem solve with them, not not not talk at them, but work with them.
1:21:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:21:31
SPEAKER_00: I think is really important for their growth.
1:21:33
SPEAKER_00: And that hopefully translates to the players, you know.
1:21:37
SPEAKER_00: Um, but the summit we don't we don't do as often, but we wanted to bring in a heavy hitter and several college coaches who had said, yeah, I'll do it.
1:21:49
SPEAKER_00: They were in the throes of their spring season.
1:21:51
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:21:52
SPEAKER_00: And the weather, and so they were canceling obsessions and rescheduling.
1:21:56
SPEAKER_00: So a couple of people I thought we had in the bag pulled out.
1:22:01
SPEAKER_00: Um, so Jason Davis, uh, who's awesome and is really, you know, he's cut his teeth in the game.
1:22:08
SPEAKER_00: Uh, but he's also done really well working for Adidas.
1:22:11
SPEAKER_03: Yep.
1:22:12
SPEAKER_00: You know, he had uh his son Jay, he is one of his sons plays at University of Michigan.
1:22:18
SPEAKER_03: Yep.
1:22:18
SPEAKER_00: The other one plays at Sporting KC.
1:22:21
SPEAKER_00: So he developed a really good rapport with Peter professionally as well as personally.
1:22:26
SPEAKER_00: Uh, I think more so after Peter and had his tenure ended at Sporting KC, because he was a parent, right?
1:22:34
SPEAKER_00: But after he was done coaching, he and Jason, I think, got a lot closer.
1:22:39
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:22:39
SPEAKER_00: Um, on more of a personal level.
1:22:42
SPEAKER_00: They always got along, but Peter, I think, felt like he could open up more.
1:22:46
SPEAKER_00: So Paul and Jason called in the favorite of Peter through Adidas, like, hey, can you can you help this guy come in as one of his appearance fees or whatever, however, they worked that out, beyond my my pay grade.
1:23:01
SPEAKER_00: Um, which is most things.
1:23:04
SPEAKER_00: But uh, he was awesome.
1:23:06
SPEAKER_00: He was awesome.
1:23:07
SPEAKER_00: And you can tell when people feel like they're spending their time, like they're there because they have to, and he wanted to, and that was what I think really had a big impact.
1:23:18
SPEAKER_00: And um, he wasn't talking at us in any way of like, here's how I built my youth club, here's how I ran Sporting KC, here's how I matured as a coach, here's my trajectory.
1:23:30
SPEAKER_00: It was all, hey, what what do you guys want to know?
1:23:32
SPEAKER_00: Right?
1:23:33
SPEAKER_00: You all have other things you could be doing.
1:23:34
SPEAKER_00: You're here at the summit.
1:23:36
SPEAKER_00: I need to help you, you know, and he lived it, you know, so cool.
1:23:41
SPEAKER_01: I mean, so now does any other club have a coaching director?
1:23:48
SPEAKER_01: I or like a coaching education director.
1:23:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I don't know that.
1:23:52
SPEAKER_00: I I talked to Ian Mullen, do you know, Molly?
1:23:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:23:56
SPEAKER_01: Through Region 2.
1:23:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:23:58
SPEAKER_01: That's when when I was with like Paul and Bob.
1:24:00
SPEAKER_00: Got it, got it.
1:24:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:24:01
SPEAKER_00: So he was in Illinois for a long time, went to Massachusetts.
1:24:03
SPEAKER_00: He's just got an incredible brain for the game.
1:24:06
SPEAKER_00: He's got a leadership role within U.S.
1:24:08
SPEAKER_00: Soccer Coaching Ed.
1:24:10
SPEAKER_00: Um and I think he's the one that got Ian kind of more back involved with U.S.
1:24:15
SPEAKER_00: soccer and coaching ed as well.
1:24:17
SPEAKER_00: Um, and Ian's been doing it forever, but um Molly, I asked him that question, you know, and he goes, I'm not I'm not aware of anyone else who's that's their specific role.
1:24:29
SPEAKER_00: There's other directors.
1:24:31
SPEAKER_00: It's so easy for any board or anyone who's running a club to add on a line item in their job description of right, oh yeah, you also have to check in with the coaches in your age group, but you also have to coach three teams and you also have to do this, and you also have to do that.
1:24:48
SPEAKER_00: And at some point, the quality suffers.
1:24:52
SPEAKER_00: Something suffers, you know.
1:24:54
SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's part transformation and part transaction.
1:24:57
SPEAKER_00: Where do you find that balance of are you supporting people to do the job really well?
1:25:03
SPEAKER_00: And Paul, I don't think he knew the nuances of the relationship I had with the board in Northville.
1:25:09
SPEAKER_00: I never I always admired the work of the rush.
1:25:12
SPEAKER_00: Tim Schultz is a very, very powerful pig figure in my life in the game.
1:25:16
SPEAKER_00: And Arian Hawks uh, who now runs Hawaii Rush, but he's an original Colorado Rush guy.
1:25:21
SPEAKER_00: The Rush was great.
1:25:22
SPEAKER_00: Uh, I was really um not on the same page with the Northville board, and everything kind of went locally through the Northville board.
1:25:31
SPEAKER_00: So the relationship was really kind of uh wasn't really like a franchise, like a McDonald's, where you have to do everything a Colorado does.
1:25:39
SPEAKER_00: It was like, hey, we want to help give you resources to make Michigan good.
1:25:43
SPEAKER_00: Um so the Rush was great for A to Z from beginning to end.
1:25:49
SPEAKER_00: And um it was a hard phone call to mate to talk to Tim and Ari and to thank them for everything personally and professionally, uh, for all their support.
1:25:59
SPEAKER_00: And it's a really good camaraderie with those guys.
1:26:02
SPEAKER_00: I learned a lot and really value their relationships very deeply and um really helped me along in my coaching journey and certainly running a club.
1:26:11
SPEAKER_00: Um but yeah, I just uh the Northville board was not seeing the development of the club the same way I was, uh what I call the tree fort leagues, and thought we did a really good job developing some players, but commute the Northville community is a very professional, successful community, a lot of dual income, they want the best for their kids.
1:26:35
SPEAKER_00: And there's a lot that really invested in our process of what we're doing with our players and teams, but it they all there was becoming more common that the belt there was a ceiling.
1:26:46
SPEAKER_00: Well, you our team's good, we're happy, and coach is good, but we're not in the right league.
1:26:50
SPEAKER_00: So we're not gonna get the right opportunities to play college soccer or whatever.
1:26:53
SPEAKER_00: And the parents at the end of the day, I think there were some parents with misaligned expectations, but for the most part, the parents were old souls who wanted the best for their kids.
1:27:02
SPEAKER_00: Of course.
1:27:02
SPEAKER_00: And they're like, they didn't say it this way, but the way I interpret it was if my kid doesn't play at Michigan or Michigan State, I'm okay with that.
1:27:11
SPEAKER_00: It's no problem.
1:27:12
SPEAKER_00: But as my mom would say, I don't want the Catholic guilt that I didn't do enough to give them that opportunity.
1:27:19
SPEAKER_00: I want to do everything I can to give them that opportunity.
1:27:22
SPEAKER_00: And if it doesn't work out for any reason, if they don't want to do it or they're not good at whatever, I love them no less.
1:27:28
SPEAKER_00: Still my kid.
1:27:29
SPEAKER_00: I just want to provide everything I can.
1:27:32
SPEAKER_00: Um so we started just losing quality players, you know, over time to the different tree fort leagues, if you will.
1:27:40
SPEAKER_00: Um and when, you know, when the DA, before MLS next, before when the DA, I said to the board, I'm like, if we don't raise the standards, like our coaching and licenses, all that was good, but if we don't raise our standards, we can apply to the DA, but we'll never get in, you know?
1:28:00
SPEAKER_00: And they just didn't share the same vision for trying to, you know, sort of toe that line.
1:28:07
SPEAKER_00: You know, uh, they weren't interested in trying to please the gatekeepers to get in a certain league.
1:28:12
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I admire, you know, the community approach to it.
1:28:17
SPEAKER_00: I always wanted to remain connected to a community, right?
1:28:20
SPEAKER_00: You know, I just felt that that was very powerful.
1:28:23
SPEAKER_00: The most important people in the club, it wasn't me, and I uh and at the risk of throwing someone's from class house, it wasn't our coaches who were great.
1:28:31
SPEAKER_00: And we had a great staff for a long time, unbelievable.
1:28:35
SPEAKER_00: And Chris Grass, you know, a Marshall, Snapey, a butler at the time.
1:28:39
SPEAKER_00: I mean, just it was it was special.
1:28:42
SPEAKER_00: Um, I learned so much from the people I worked with.
1:28:45
SPEAKER_00: Um, but the real the real glue to the club were what I call inappropriately the power parents, team managers, that each team had a treasure.
1:28:55
SPEAKER_00: Like they really, they really gave direction to the club because they were the one, they were among them.
1:29:02
SPEAKER_00: They're talking to all the other parents.
1:29:03
SPEAKER_00: No, this is what we're doing, and this is why, you know, and they got the buy-in, you know, it's not exactly like I'm Captain Charisma, you know what I mean?
1:29:11
SPEAKER_00: So it's about parents talking about agreeing to, yeah, we're all in, let's do this, you know.
1:29:17
SPEAKER_00: Um, so they were the true, they were the true glue of the club, you know.
1:29:23
SPEAKER_00: Um, and they just wanted to help, you know, it wasn't a transactional, but yeah, I'll manage the team and take care of the passcards and kind of keep the other parents you know off the referee, off the referee, you know, that type of stuff.
1:29:37
SPEAKER_00: So um, you know, it was a really powerful time, and I was very, very, very, very fortunate to be able to serve.
1:29:45
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, it got to the point where like I don't know the truth of the matter.
1:29:49
SPEAKER_00: I never saw the financials.
1:29:50
SPEAKER_00: I was an independent contractor.
1:29:52
SPEAKER_00: People always thought that I and still think I live in Northville, you know, think hey man, I live in Redford.
1:29:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I've started house can be my retirement house, you know.
1:30:03
SPEAKER_00: Um but um because I was in Northville for so long, I think people sort of just kind of associate that.
1:30:10
SPEAKER_00: But um the the board, they they you know, they weren't short money, you know.
1:30:14
SPEAKER_00: And I got to the point where I um asked, I had a personal, I would say veo as a veil camera, and I used a Madonna with the men, and any home game that I could get to in the club, I'd record games for them, you know, and send a video to that coach and manager.
1:30:30
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, well, we should have like four or five, you know, we got to the point where there were a couple teams in the soccer tourism going to play in like Chicago or St.
1:30:40
SPEAKER_00: Louis, and they wanted to take my camera.
1:30:43
SPEAKER_00: And I'm thinking, like, I'm taking this camera back to my thousand square foot in Redford.
1:30:50
SPEAKER_00: And I bought myself, like, why, why am I, you know, we don't have enough money to buy a couple cameras, you know, in Northville, Michigan?
1:30:55
SPEAKER_00: Right.
1:30:56
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
1:30:56
SPEAKER_00: Like, we weren't, we weren't, we weren't the most expensive club or even close, but we it wasn't free.
1:31:02
SPEAKER_00: Like the club's got to have some money, right?
1:31:04
SPEAKER_00: You know, and I asked the president and the treasurer, they both just politely said no.
1:31:09
SPEAKER_00: And the president goes, No, just he's like, Well, you you have one, don't you?
1:31:13
SPEAKER_00: I've seen your you bring one out to the field.
1:31:15
SPEAKER_00: I go, Well, yeah, but I only have one.
1:31:17
SPEAKER_00: People are pissed at me because I'm not giving them mine to take to St.
1:31:21
SPEAKER_00: Louis.
1:31:22
SPEAKER_00: You know, and he just like he goes, No, just let them use yours or tell them that they can't use it.
1:31:30
SPEAKER_00: So I'm like the bad guy, you know.
1:31:31
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, this isn't right, you know.
1:31:34
SPEAKER_00: So, and there were there were a couple other things that I would say the final straw, but it it just I just felt like I wasn't that not only me, but our staff and our families weren't getting the support that they they should get, you know.
1:31:50
SPEAKER_00: So I just um I didn't a couple of some parents approached me.
1:31:54
SPEAKER_00: They the parents of the younger ages didn't know me as well, and they thought maybe if we make a change, it was a little bit more transactional.
1:32:01
SPEAKER_00: But the truth was uh it was about wanting to work with people I really enjoy being around, can learn from, share the game with, uh, what's best for our families and whether I like the current state of soccer or not, I can't change the reality.
1:32:19
SPEAKER_00: Right.
1:32:19
SPEAKER_00: Um, so it was like, all right, well, who do you who do you kind of partner with?
1:32:23
SPEAKER_00: I put the word out to the trusted staff who stay really loyal.
1:32:26
SPEAKER_00: Like, hey, I'm thinking we might need to make a change.
1:32:30
SPEAKER_00: So the word's starting to get out.
1:32:31
SPEAKER_00: Some parents approached me about um really, for lack of a way to describe it, trying to do a coup d'etat, you know, and like, well, let's change the board, this and that.
1:32:40
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, nah, I don't.
1:32:41
SPEAKER_00: Hey, listen, those guys are loyal to me for life.
1:32:43
SPEAKER_00: It's been over 20 years, man.
1:32:45
SPEAKER_00: I've put in some hard yards.
1:32:46
SPEAKER_00: I'm not looking to destroy anything, I'm looking to try to be in an environment where there's more support, you know, and I haven't been able to delegate up well enough to get that support, you know.
1:32:58
SPEAKER_00: The answer is a polite but pretty firm no.
1:33:01
SPEAKER_00: So um I started to, I mean, it was weird how it fast it spread, you know, and then uh I don't I don't want to play the Dutch name game, but other clubs start kind of calling, hey, we're heard you're you know, you've never been open to other work.
1:33:17
SPEAKER_00: What do you what are you thinking about doing?
1:33:18
SPEAKER_00: What are you gonna do with the club?
1:33:19
SPEAKER_00: This and that.
1:33:20
SPEAKER_00: It was very important for me to honor each branch.
1:33:22
SPEAKER_00: We had Northville and Downriver, which is my original sort of commitment.
1:33:27
SPEAKER_00: Um, and really like the risk of sounding like arrogant, yeah, but really proud of the downriver branch.
1:33:34
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:33:35
SPEAKER_00: Coaches of players, um, just the values in the community, like some good players, man, came out of there.
1:33:42
SPEAKER_00: And when I first went down there, I was just poor man coaching that guy.
1:33:46
SPEAKER_00: They would have me go down there once or once a season, full one fall, one spring, to work with their coaches.
1:33:52
SPEAKER_00: And then they would take me out to Applebee's.
1:33:55
SPEAKER_00: You know, that was the trade.
1:33:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, things for come.
1:33:57
SPEAKER_00: Go back to Redford.
1:33:59
SPEAKER_00: But I enjoyed it, you know, yeah, some, you know, so um I said, look, we're gonna join the rush, you know, um, come coming out of Northville soccer.
1:34:10
SPEAKER_00: And they were like offended, like, why would you draw up the Northville name?
1:34:13
SPEAKER_00: Like, there's a great community.
1:34:15
SPEAKER_00: Like, we would never, we're downriver, you know, there's 12 communities, we're we're together.
1:34:19
SPEAKER_00: Like, we would never take on another branch of well, the rush can provide this, this, and this.
1:34:24
SPEAKER_00: I think it's better for our coaches.
1:34:25
SPEAKER_00: I think it's most importantly better for our players.
1:34:28
SPEAKER_00: And we have uh kind of a fraternity effect sorority, this shared sort of brotherhood, this ecosystem to share players, share coaching information, how to run a club.
1:34:38
SPEAKER_00: Like, I just think it's better.
1:34:40
SPEAKER_00: By the time I got done, my ranting and raving, getting paid by the word in Applebee's, um, they were like, hey, can we can we join?
1:34:48
SPEAKER_00: You know, and I wasn't trying to sell, I was just talking about saying what I feel.
1:34:52
SPEAKER_00: Just being yourself.
1:34:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like this is what I believe in, you know.
1:34:55
SPEAKER_00: I may change my mind.
1:34:57
SPEAKER_00: So I was turned down to the rush by Donnie Yemmo, who really looked out for me and really gave me an early start coaching at ODP when that was the only pathway.
1:35:06
SPEAKER_00: And in coaching education, I remember going to assist Bob Bakari at a gym.
1:35:12
SPEAKER_00: Um, it's called the Hawk.
1:35:14
SPEAKER_00: It used to be Farmington Harrison High School in the winter.
1:35:18
SPEAKER_00: I used the term.
1:35:19
SPEAKER_00: He was upset, you know, Bob Well enough.
1:35:22
SPEAKER_00: He was upset.
1:35:23
SPEAKER_00: I mean, the guy's the OG, man.
1:35:25
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
1:35:26
SPEAKER_00: The guy's the OG, him and Paul.
1:35:28
SPEAKER_00: So he was upset, and I didn't know this because I'm not intuitive, that we came back from lunch and a bunch of the D-licensed candidates, now called student coaches, were playing basketball in the gym with soccer balls.
1:35:45
SPEAKER_00: And smoke started coming out of his ears, but I didn't see it because I'm a Muppet.
1:35:50
SPEAKER_00: I didn't know.
1:35:51
SPEAKER_00: I'm just like, oh yeah.
1:35:53
SPEAKER_00: And I remember him saying, Hey Zeth, uh, why the hell is everybody playing basketball at a soccer court?
1:36:01
SPEAKER_00: And I go, I just got back from lunch with their board, yeah, I have whatever syllables I vomited out of my mouth.
1:36:07
SPEAKER_00: But I didn't notice how upset he was because he always treated me like gold.
1:36:12
SPEAKER_00: You know, I mean, he was just he was so awesome.
1:36:15
SPEAKER_00: So, and he really believed I wanted to get better.
1:36:18
SPEAKER_00: And I knew I didn't think I was good enough.
1:36:20
SPEAKER_00: So he was really like helping, you know.
1:36:22
SPEAKER_00: So um it wasn't like a tough love.
1:36:25
SPEAKER_00: It was like, no, you're you like you belong here, you know.
1:36:27
SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, let me let me help you out in terms of being an instructor, you know.
1:36:32
SPEAKER_00: So later in the day, I made to talk about open mouth and surf, but I made the mistake of saying um he wanted me to start organizing.
1:36:43
SPEAKER_00: I wasn't giving coaches feedback yet, just how to structure a course.
1:36:46
SPEAKER_00: So I said, Hey, the next coach that's on deck, we don't want you to play, so you can get ready for your session.
1:36:55
SPEAKER_00: And he threw his clipboard at me, and papers just went everywhere.
1:37:01
SPEAKER_00: I mean, time just stopped.
1:37:02
SPEAKER_00: Everyone just stopped.
1:37:04
SPEAKER_00: And he kind of at the end had a bit of a smirk.
1:37:06
SPEAKER_00: It was a little theater.
1:37:07
SPEAKER_00: Um, but he made his point.
1:37:09
SPEAKER_00: It was about here or see, any more non-stoccer behavior words on this course, you will not pass, and you will be asked to leave.
1:37:19
SPEAKER_00: You know, he pointed right at me.
1:37:20
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, oh my god, one of those moments you remember.
1:37:24
SPEAKER_00: Um he always had like he always smirked at the end.
1:37:28
SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, because Tom Durkin was like that too.
1:37:32
SPEAKER_00: He was like, I just wanted to make my point.
1:37:33
SPEAKER_01: What are you up to?
1:37:34
SPEAKER_01: Like he always had like the purpose of everything that he did or everything that he said.
1:37:39
SPEAKER_01: And like, I remember when I was coaching a country day with him, and we were in the state playoffs.
1:37:46
SPEAKER_01: I think it was the year that we won a championship, and one of the kids like lost a mark, and the kid scored a goal.
1:37:52
SPEAKER_01: So the next day, when they y'all show up to training, Bob Bakari goes and walks next to that kid.
1:38:01
SPEAKER_01: Well, the kid gets up and like starts walking over there.
1:38:04
SPEAKER_01: Bob stays with him the whole time.
1:38:07
SPEAKER_01: Okay, and then the kid walks this way, and then and then he's just walking and he's just shadowing this kid this entire time.
1:38:15
SPEAKER_01: And I go to his son, Brad Pose punting at the time, and he goes, Oh, he has a purpose for everything he's doing.
1:38:21
SPEAKER_01: I have no idea what he's doing, but he has a purpose.
1:38:24
SPEAKER_01: And then he just got the whole team together.
1:38:26
SPEAKER_01: He goes, That's how you don't lose a mark.
1:38:28
SPEAKER_01: And it was like just brilliant.
1:38:31
SPEAKER_01: And it's it's like little stuff like that that he would do.
1:38:33
SPEAKER_00: There's just well, even now in coaching, you know.
1:38:36
SPEAKER_00: I was talking to a coach the other night.
1:38:37
SPEAKER_00: I go, Don't don't tell him you gotta show him.
1:38:40
SPEAKER_00: Kids are so visual now.
1:38:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and here's Bob doing that, you know.
1:38:44
SPEAKER_01: 15 years ago, 17 years ago.
1:38:47
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, mastering his method, man.
1:38:50
SPEAKER_01: What are you doing with the state?
1:38:51
SPEAKER_01: You're the technical director.
1:38:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so Paul and I kind of share the role.
1:38:54
SPEAKER_00: I think Tom, Tom Farrell's pretty sharp and uh has done a great job, you know, managing, you know, as executive director for such a long time.
1:39:02
SPEAKER_00: And um when so Donny Gelman was there, he left to go do Texas Rush.
1:39:10
SPEAKER_00: Um, I I I was finishing a master's and coaching them on a women's team.
1:39:15
SPEAKER_00: I had promised all these girls I was gonna coach them.
1:39:17
SPEAKER_00: So I'm like, I can't go to Texas to do this rush thing.
1:39:20
SPEAKER_00: And he's like, well, why don't you bring it to Michigan?
1:39:22
SPEAKER_00: That's how the rush thing got going.
1:39:24
SPEAKER_00: And then um uh so I served the rush for a long time, but back to the back to the state.
1:39:34
SPEAKER_00: Um Donnie left, and then I don't remember if Brett Jacobs was before Brian Thorpe or Brian Thorpe was before Brett Jacobs.
1:39:43
SPEAKER_00: I think Jacobs was first, but they were like, I called it like the lease car job, like at three years, like turning it over, you know.
1:39:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I can remember a couple people asking me, and that was a high-profile job at the time.
1:39:56
SPEAKER_00: Like the they'd have a meeting in the state office, all the club directors would go, and you know, it was like a job you would want to get, you know, if you're young and cutting your teeth.
1:40:05
SPEAKER_00: Like it was it was a really impactful role.
1:40:08
SPEAKER_00: And um, I'm thinking, like, I don't want that job.
1:40:11
SPEAKER_00: Like these after three years, you get turned away.
1:40:14
SPEAKER_00: And I didn't know the method behind the matches, whether they wanted to leave or it wasn't working out.
1:40:18
SPEAKER_00: And Renus Mickels, I think in that book, team building coach of the centuries, was like, you need to have the technical, the political, and the admin all right, or it doesn't work.
1:40:30
SPEAKER_00: So that that interface of the Stoadish State Association, what's the responsibility of a technical director, the politics of the day, and then the admin, like if all that's not jiving, it it gets pretty pretty strenuous, um, and there's some friction.
1:40:45
SPEAKER_00: So I would kind of just tell Tom and the leadership, the board, like, I'm happy to be the substitute teacher and help out.
1:40:54
SPEAKER_00: I'm not willing to leave my other work because I don't trust that I'd be here.
1:40:59
SPEAKER_00: And not with anyone, not with anyone in person, but just the politics of the day.
1:41:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:41:04
SPEAKER_00: You know, the directors I felt like had a target on their back because you can't be all things to all people.
1:41:09
SPEAKER_00: And there's elections, right?
1:41:10
SPEAKER_00: So you're, you know, it's hard to serve that many masters sometimes.
1:41:15
SPEAKER_00: So I was always one to help and and super loyal, and they've been loyal.
1:41:19
SPEAKER_00: Um, so after we went through a few different technical directors in this sort of modern era, I'll say, for lack of a better way to describe it, uh, Paul had left us in the rush.
1:41:32
SPEAKER_00: Um, it was sort of during the time like the auto bailout and real estate, oh, eight, oh nine.
1:41:38
SPEAKER_00: His wife's in the automotive, Sarah's awesome.
1:41:40
SPEAKER_00: She played and coached with us for a while, played at Northwood, great, great for the game.
1:41:44
SPEAKER_00: Um, her mentor tapped her on the shoulder, the automotive industry shakeup.
1:41:49
SPEAKER_00: She's like, hey, I don't know if you're gonna make it, you've done a great job, but I don't know if your role's gonna be here through this auto bailout.
1:41:56
SPEAKER_00: So they moved to Chicago, and Sarah's family's from Metro Detroit.
1:42:01
SPEAKER_00: So they wanted to come back.
1:42:02
SPEAKER_00: They started a family.
1:42:04
SPEAKER_00: And um I don't know the vetting process of the time, but Paul Thomas was not being considered for the state job, and he was interested selfishly.
1:42:16
SPEAKER_00: I wanted to have him back with us in the rush.
1:42:18
SPEAKER_00: Great guy, top coach, like he'd be a great for the club, but I wanted to, you know, honor him, you know, great guy.
1:42:25
SPEAKER_00: I didn't want to burn a relationship.
1:42:27
SPEAKER_00: So he said, Hey, for my family, the hard yards at the club every night, every weekend.
1:42:33
SPEAKER_00: I'm more interested in the state job.
1:42:35
SPEAKER_00: Do you think you could, you know, put you know, mention my name?
1:42:39
SPEAKER_00: So I reached out to Sohail, the president at the time, and and said, Listen, I don't know who's applied, I'm not on the committee, I'm not involved, I'm not trying to overstep my boundaries.
1:42:51
SPEAKER_00: But if you're not considered Paul Thomas, you're you know, you're missing out, you know.
1:42:56
SPEAKER_00: And we got along really well, uh, Sohail and I.
1:43:00
SPEAKER_00: And I don't know how much he valued my opinion, I don't know how much impact I had, but Paul ended up getting the role, which wasn't good for the club.
1:43:09
SPEAKER_00: Because he couldn't get him at rush, but it was good for him.
1:43:12
SPEAKER_00: And then Paul really rose up the ranks so fast in U.S.
1:43:15
SPEAKER_00: soccer and coaching at he does teach a lot of B licenses now, and um he's very humble about it, but he's really highly respected and well thought of.
1:43:25
SPEAKER_00: He's a great guy, you know, what gets along with him.
1:43:28
SPEAKER_00: So um Paul wanted to leave the state director role and get back on the club game, because I don't know this to be true, but I think some people that were guiding him and his professional pathway said, hey, you gotta be in the USDA, you gotta, you know, college isn't high school, you know, you gotta be making players, you know, at the top youth level, uh, to be taken serious, so to speak.
1:43:53
SPEAKER_00: I'm talking out of turn a little bit on that, but I think he got that type of a message.
1:43:58
SPEAKER_00: And Paul doesn't like to sit still, you know.
1:44:02
SPEAKER_00: He's he's he's a Manchester boy, man.
1:44:04
SPEAKER_00: He's a worker, he's a grinder, you know, he's very charismatic, but he's a grinder.
1:44:10
SPEAKER_00: Um and the state job is a little bit different, different pace.
1:44:14
SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's not like being in a club.
1:44:18
SPEAKER_00: Um so he wanted to get back in the club, you know.
1:44:23
SPEAKER_00: So I talked to Tom and I said, listen, the state director role, I don't want to throw stones from a glass house or come across super judgmental, but the state director role is not what it once was.
1:44:34
SPEAKER_00: The club directors have direct access to what they're doing with each league, with the state association.
1:44:41
SPEAKER_00: The state technical director used to be sort of an authority figure or guide for all the club directors, if you will.
1:44:49
SPEAKER_00: It was more hierarchical.
1:44:51
SPEAKER_00: Now that's not necessarily the case.
1:44:53
SPEAKER_00: Um, so I just said, you know, Paul wants to get back and coach.
1:44:58
SPEAKER_00: You've had these other technical directors, they don't coach a lot.
1:45:02
SPEAKER_00: They all these coaches want to coach.
1:45:04
SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna leave the work I'm doing.
1:45:06
SPEAKER_00: Uh I would like to do the job.
1:45:08
SPEAKER_00: I don't know how well I would do it, but I'm not gonna risk leaving all my other work to take the job.
1:45:13
SPEAKER_02: Right.
1:45:13
SPEAKER_00: Because the next election cycle, I might get turned over.
1:45:16
SPEAKER_00: Because I know one thing, I'm gonna upset somebody, I'm gonna piss somebody off, somebody say, you know, try to make them all happy, none are happy, you know.
1:45:23
SPEAKER_00: Like I'm gonna say something that I shouldn't say at some point.
1:45:26
SPEAKER_00: Trust me, I know that.
1:45:27
SPEAKER_00: So uh I said, if you want Paul and I to kind of split the role, and I'm the rush was not at the time this elite club that had all the top players.
1:45:40
SPEAKER_00: So for me to be involved more with ODP wasn't driving other club directors to not send their kids to ODP.
1:45:48
SPEAKER_00: I wasn't a controversial figure, and the staff that worked in ODP knew firsthand, like, no, he's he's cut, he's cut a lot of kids that were on the bubble that played for the there's no free pass, you know.
1:46:03
SPEAKER_00: So fortunately, the staff kind of spoke on me my behalf to kind of calm any concerns among parents will think whatever parents think, but the other club directors and the others that were kind of influential.
1:46:17
SPEAKER_00: I wasn't perceived to be controversial.
1:46:20
SPEAKER_00: And I was already on the coaching ed staff.
1:46:23
SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, and it was like, hey, if Paul wants to work, he went to the Wolves, they had a USDA at the time, and um at the time Wolves and Hawks were together.
1:46:33
SPEAKER_00: I think he was specifically coaching with the Wolves.
1:46:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, but he so he was the lead in coaching ed, and I was sort of the lead in ODP, but we kind of helped each other out um throughout, still do.
1:46:45
SPEAKER_00: So um now a lot of other state associations have kind of Tom was a bit of a trailblazer in that way.
1:46:52
SPEAKER_00: A lot of other state associations have kind of reformatted that role of a technical director or director of coaching to allow them, those guys or and men and women to coach as well as work for the state.
1:47:05
SPEAKER_00: I think the state's thinking at some point in the land of transactions and their budgets, all right.
1:47:09
SPEAKER_00: Well, if he's working somewhere else, we can we're asking him to do less, but we can also pay him less.
1:47:15
SPEAKER_00: Let's just pay for what we're getting.
1:47:17
SPEAKER_00: He can go work if he wants to have three jobs, that's his problem.
1:47:20
SPEAKER_00: Um let him do that to himself.
1:47:23
SPEAKER_00: Um so um that's kind of how it, that's kind of how it sort of uh unfolded.
1:47:30
SPEAKER_00: It was wasn't planned in any way.
1:47:32
SPEAKER_00: And I just said, hey, let's take it for a test drive, you know, and um for security reasons, I won't quit all my other work to take this risk.
1:47:41
SPEAKER_02: Right.
1:47:42
SPEAKER_00: And if you think politically it's not working out, you can tell me, you know, right, you know, you don't need to be the substitute teacher anymore.
1:47:49
SPEAKER_00: We'll hire somebody else, you know, no problem.
1:47:52
SPEAKER_00: Um, so I appreciate, you know, Tom's been a tremendous steward, Tom Farrell for the State Association and has a lot of support.
1:47:59
SPEAKER_00: Um, there's challenges, yeah, you know, there's challenges.
1:48:03
SPEAKER_00: I really felt for him during COVID.
1:48:07
SPEAKER_00: You know, the amount of pressure, but we just insurance, we couldn't play soccer, and all the club leaders, I felt a ton of stress.
1:48:15
SPEAKER_00: The Northville community was incredibly respectful during that time.
1:48:21
SPEAKER_00: Um the board was really good about not charging families, which really helped.
1:48:26
SPEAKER_00: But I felt for our coaches, you know, that was a scary time.
1:48:30
SPEAKER_00: And Tom was feeling the weight of it, you know, for the whole state association.
1:48:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:48:36
SPEAKER_00: Um, and his hands were tied.
1:48:38
SPEAKER_00: It wasn't it wasn't even his decision to make, no offense to to Tom or anybody else.
1:48:45
SPEAKER_00: We the kids weren't allowed to try and do that.
1:48:48
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:48:48
SPEAKER_00: So, but it was incredibly stressful.
1:48:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I felt for we aged in dog years.
1:48:53
SPEAKER_00: We aged in dog years during that time for sure.
1:48:56
SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
1:48:57
SPEAKER_01: What did you guys do for your staff during COVID?
1:49:00
SPEAKER_00: Well, I'll tell you what, um, I I sheepishly appealed.
1:49:06
SPEAKER_00: That's not one of the treasures of the Northville community.
1:49:09
SPEAKER_00: I sheepishly appealed to what I call the power parents, team managers.
1:49:15
SPEAKER_00: We had treasures for each team helping like tournaments and stuff.
1:49:18
SPEAKER_00: I said, hey, listen, um the board has made it.
1:49:23
SPEAKER_00: I don't know why I was the one having all the meetings, but anyway, um, some things are probably left best unsaid.
1:49:30
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, I was the one delivering the message.
1:49:32
SPEAKER_00: The you're not gonna be charged, parents aren't gonna be charged if we're not playing.
1:49:36
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
1:49:37
SPEAKER_00: Um, but that means the coaches also will not be getting paid and they still have a responsibility financially for their mortgages or rent or whatever.
1:49:47
SPEAKER_00: So I said, what we're asking, what we're asking is for teams, and I'm happy to be an intermediary, teams to still pay coaches a stipend through this uh to get them through.
1:50:00
SPEAKER_00: Because what's going to happen is when we're done with this scary time, there's going to be a vacuum.
1:50:06
SPEAKER_00: So coaches, and it's happening more and more, will just leave the game and just pursue a different path in life that's more maybe a healthier balance for their time.
1:50:17
SPEAKER_00: Um and sort of responsible to their families.
1:50:21
SPEAKER_00: Um, or they'll just choose a different club.
1:50:25
unknown: Yeah.
1:50:25
SPEAKER_00: You know, so if we want to keep our intellectual property, if we want to keep our coaches, we had a really good staff, we're gonna have to give them.
1:50:33
SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying you got to pay them full freight, but you got to help them.
1:50:37
SPEAKER_00: And um honest to God, I just had that one meeting with all like the team managers and treasurers and stuff, and there was probably a half a dozen follow-up phone calls.
1:50:48
SPEAKER_00: And not all of our coaches got paid full freight, but they were very well taken care of.
1:50:53
SPEAKER_00: That's good.
1:50:54
SPEAKER_00: Um, so there's a special community for that to happen.
1:50:57
SPEAKER_00: And uh that's early.
1:50:59
SPEAKER_00: I was talking about the managers are maybe the most important people in the club.
1:51:03
SPEAKER_00: That there's an example of that in real life, and I don't mean to say it dismissively against any of our coaches or any other person's role.
1:51:10
SPEAKER_00: Um, but they're there's in so many ways the glue, you know, and um when we needed them, they came through.
1:51:18
SPEAKER_01: How long have you been back at Madonna?
1:51:21
SPEAKER_00: So um my mom would say that the former AD Brian Rizzo put the Catholic guilt on me, and uh Eric Scott was coaching the band.
1:51:28
SPEAKER_00: Eric's awesome.
1:51:29
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you know him.
1:51:30
SPEAKER_01: I I I know all of them.
1:51:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
1:51:33
SPEAKER_00: What a cool dude, man.
1:51:34
SPEAKER_00: He's so good for the game, and he's an incredible human being.
1:51:37
SPEAKER_00: Um, he played, he is a good soccer player, grew up in Redford, played for Livonia, but ended up playing football for Albion, like kicking football in college.
1:51:46
SPEAKER_00: So, as much as Madonna's my second home, Albion um was his second home.
1:51:53
SPEAKER_00: Well, the Madonna job was part-time and paid like a high school coach, uh, but full-time work, you know.
1:52:00
SPEAKER_00: Um, so the job opened up for him to coach women's soccer, which was full-time in I think 2012 or 2013.
1:52:09
SPEAKER_00: And he took that job.
1:52:11
SPEAKER_00: So he called me just because I'm an alum and I'm coaching the area, and then the athletic director.
1:52:16
SPEAKER_00: When I was coaching the women, it was the same athletic director, Brian.
1:52:19
SPEAKER_00: He's now the athletic director at McComb.
1:52:22
SPEAKER_00: Um, so he called me and said, Hey, would you be interested?
1:52:26
SPEAKER_00: Can we can you come back here for a few years and kind of you know serve the program?
1:52:32
SPEAKER_00: So I said, All right, I'll I'll give you three or four years if I can manage it.
1:52:37
SPEAKER_00: You know, I need to respect my other work because I have demands and financially, you know, the Madonna's not paying the bills.
1:52:47
SPEAKER_00: So um not volunteer, but feels like it virtually.
1:52:52
SPEAKER_00: So uh he was good with it.
1:52:54
SPEAKER_00: And uh so 2013 was the first fall that I came back, and now I'm 2026.
1:53:00
SPEAKER_00: So I've given him my three or four years.
1:53:03
SPEAKER_00: I'm too stubborn.
1:53:05
SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, it's been kind of a second home.
1:53:08
SPEAKER_00: I'm not it's not a scenario where trying to do a good job at Madonna to go somewhere else, not trying to use it to go somewhere else, just trying to make Madonna the best it can be.
1:53:19
SPEAKER_00: Um and in honoring of Madonna, you know, a lot of the NAI schools in Division II, you know, there's different, you know, sort of standards in terms of their academic Madonna's academics are really good.
1:53:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:53:32
SPEAKER_00: Nursing program is sort of the the high this this surgeries I had this fall, the nurses will come in and try to call me on like, hey, we gotta take your blood pressure and this and well, where do you work?
1:53:44
SPEAKER_00: You know, what do you do?
1:53:45
SPEAKER_00: I coach every single, every single one.
1:53:48
SPEAKER_00: Oh, Madonna, great nursing program.
1:53:49
SPEAKER_00: Oh, Madonna, great nursing program, great nursing program.
1:53:53
SPEAKER_00: So um, yeah, the academics are the guiding light as much as this men's soccer coach would like athletics to be, let's say, as equally as equally as favored or supported.
1:54:05
SPEAKER_00: That's not the case.
1:54:06
SPEAKER_00: Uh, academics first.
1:54:09
SPEAKER_00: Um, so we've been uh we're not funded in a way where we're expected to win, so to speak, and the schools like, hey, we want the kids to have a good experience, we want you to graduate students.
1:54:21
SPEAKER_00: You know, that's our mission.
1:54:22
SPEAKER_00: We want to graduate students.
1:54:24
SPEAKER_00: So many of the kids that go to Madonna are old souls, you know.
1:54:27
SPEAKER_00: They're if you think of like the renowned majors at Madonna, it's kind of the glue people in society.
1:54:33
SPEAKER_00: It's teachers, nurses.
1:54:36
SPEAKER_00: You know, we have a really good forensic science program, you know, criminal justice, that type of stuff.
1:54:41
SPEAKER_00: We have other, you know, computer science is strong.
1:54:43
SPEAKER_00: We have a TV studio on campus.
1:54:45
SPEAKER_00: Probably should have done this in the TV studio.
1:54:47
SPEAKER_00: People come over from channel like two, channel four, channel seven news to work with the students, and they're like, man, your TV studio is nicer than ours, TV studio.
1:54:57
SPEAKER_00: Um, so there are some outliers in terms of academics, but it's kind of we tend to, I think, attract old souls because of the majors that we have.
1:55:06
SPEAKER_00: People that tend to come to Manana want to give back to their community, you know, through their professional work.
1:55:12
SPEAKER_00: So um we're spoiled that way, you know, in terms of the quality of the kids that we get.
1:55:17
SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, it's been it's been cool.
1:55:21
SPEAKER_00: Um I don't know how I would react to being under a lot of pressure to win.
1:55:30
SPEAKER_00: I have felt it in the club game, uh, but in the college game, the pressure that I feel, I feel it from myself and the guys on the team.
1:55:40
SPEAKER_00: It's not coming from administration like hey, your budgets are XYZ, so you should this is the process we've invested.
1:55:48
SPEAKER_00: Now, this is the outcome we want.
1:55:50
SPEAKER_00: Um, we've had some hard years and we've been fortunate with some good ones.
1:55:54
SPEAKER_00: And the honestly, the thank you note at the end of the year is is the same.
1:55:58
SPEAKER_00: You know, thank you for helping these young, young, young men.
1:56:02
SPEAKER_00: Um, appreciate the life lessons, appreciate your support of their academic experience, and you know, keep up the good work, you know, type type conjecture.
1:56:10
SPEAKER_00: So uh, but that's been comfortable.
1:56:13
SPEAKER_00: So it's been a it's been a hell of a coaching laboratory.
1:56:16
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and I don't want to say that at the expense of the kids that have come through the program, but to work with them.
1:56:21
SPEAKER_00: We're very global.
1:56:22
SPEAKER_00: You know, we have ESL, so if the kids don't pass the toll full English exam, we can still take them.
1:56:28
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
1:56:28
SPEAKER_00: So it wasn't an overt um, wasn't an overt political or social agenda.
1:56:34
SPEAKER_00: It was like we wouldn't want the best kids who are the best students, who are the best players.
1:56:39
SPEAKER_00: And even though I'm from Livonia, we're gonna, if the kids from Japan, he's from Japan.
1:56:43
SPEAKER_00: If he's from Sao Paulo, Brazil is from Sao Paulo, we want so there's been an amazing camaraderie and connectedness between the kids of the different international countries, as well as our local, our local kids tend to be like Wayne and Oakland County, they tend to be like really local who haven't traveled as much, haven't seen the world as much yet.
1:57:03
SPEAKER_00: Um, but they be kind of become become each other's families for the international kids.
1:57:08
SPEAKER_00: They are each other's family when they're here.
1:57:10
SPEAKER_00: Most of them can't afford to be flying back to the house.
1:57:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:57:13
SPEAKER_00: So um, you know, the holidays, the off time, uh, a lot of the families of our local kids really connect with the internet, kind of take them in and make sure they get a home cooked meal and um the greater community at large.
1:57:28
SPEAKER_00: You know, we have a large Japanese population in Novae.
1:57:31
SPEAKER_00: Our Japan Japanese guys feel really comfortable with um just culturally.
1:57:37
SPEAKER_00: Go to a sushi house, get you know, food like home, and in that community, they're religious centers, you know, there's um a comfort level there.
1:57:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so that diversity of the metro area.
1:57:49
SPEAKER_00: We have a hospital right on campus.
1:57:50
SPEAKER_00: I still call it St.
1:57:51
SPEAKER_00: Mary's Hospital in the big business of medicine now, Trinity, I think it's called.
1:57:56
SPEAKER_00: Um, so you know, we're in the suburbs, and there's a lot of the another reason we get a lot of internationals is what I take for granted.
1:58:05
SPEAKER_00: There's such a strong economy built by the automotives and now with technology and other industries for internships or future employment.
1:58:13
SPEAKER_00: You know, we have Bosch, we have a you know plant six minutes away from school.
1:58:17
SPEAKER_00: Well, the German kids are thinking, maybe I want to stay in the US, maybe I want to go back to Germany to live somewhere.
1:58:23
SPEAKER_00: But Bosch, if I get in with Bosch, I can I can work globally.
1:58:26
SPEAKER_01: Anywhere.
1:58:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:58:27
SPEAKER_00: So for me, being a product of this environment, I was a little bit naive to that.
1:58:31
SPEAKER_00: I learned that from the kids, you know, and their parents in the Zoom meetings and recruiting.
1:58:36
SPEAKER_00: So if I travel to Wixham or I travel somewhere else on my own dollar, like there's no budget to go recruit kids, you know, internationally or even in Grand Rapids.
1:58:46
SPEAKER_00: So if I go there, it's because I'm I'm leaning into it.
1:58:49
SPEAKER_02: Right.
1:58:49
SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's not as if we're funded for that, but we started to get an international trend.
1:58:56
SPEAKER_00: It happened organically.
1:58:58
SPEAKER_00: There was a kid out of Brazil who played at a real strong uh NAI program, Ryo Grant.
1:59:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:59:03
SPEAKER_00: Um, he was living like right where University of Windsor, right over the Ambassador Bridge.
1:59:08
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
1:59:09
SPEAKER_00: And he played, this is like, I'm gonna make this up and say it's 2014, 2015 type type time frame.
1:59:15
SPEAKER_00: And he was playing on a summer men's team with and against some of our guys in the same league.
1:59:20
SPEAKER_00: And they thought, Madonna, we play at Madonna.
1:59:22
SPEAKER_00: He's like, Oh, you have a couple good players, you know.
1:59:24
SPEAKER_00: Can I can I come to Madonna finish my degree?
1:59:28
SPEAKER_00: I did two years at Rio, and I've just been in Canada working.
1:59:33
SPEAKER_00: So uh we were able to sign him, he played for us, but what changed our trajectory, which was not a plan, I can assure you, is he's he's I call him a little bit of a Hollywood guy.
1:59:46
SPEAKER_00: So he's we win a game or tie, he gets a goal and assist whatever.
1:59:51
SPEAKER_00: He's on social media.
1:59:52
SPEAKER_00: Well, all of a sudden, in the like the next two, three weeks, I start getting all these emails, kids that don't want to play Madonna from Brazil, you know, and it took me too long to figure out.
2:00:02
SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm out on my back foot.
2:00:05
SPEAKER_00: Like him, him promoting himself, so to speak, and Madonna soccer on social media, that was the marketing for free.
2:00:14
SPEAKER_00: You know, so his old coaches are seeing it, as his former teammates are seeing it, his neighborhood, his family.
2:00:21
SPEAKER_00: So Madonna's all of a sudden being marketed in Brazil, you know, and he's putting up video clips and stuff, you know, so it's really powerful.
2:00:30
SPEAKER_00: So it wasn't like uh a social agenda, it wasn't financed through the school, it was just sort of organic, you know, and it just grew.
2:00:38
SPEAKER_00: And now there's these recruiting agencies a lot of these international kids will link up with.
2:00:42
SPEAKER_00: And Madonna's on a little bit of a short list because we have ESL.
2:00:45
SPEAKER_00: Right.
2:00:45
SPEAKER_00: Like if you don't feel comfortable taking higher academic classes, even if you can speak the language okay, writing papers in English is different.
2:00:54
SPEAKER_00: Um, you could start in ESL, even if it's just one semester.
2:00:58
SPEAKER_03: Right.
2:00:59
SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's kind of a soft landing for the kids.
2:01:01
SPEAKER_00: And then in Metro, Detroit, you know, all the diversity through the automotive industry and the overall economy.
2:01:07
SPEAKER_00: And they can look up Livonia, pretty safe, hospital right on campus.
2:01:11
SPEAKER_00: They can look up our records.
2:01:12
SPEAKER_00: All of our home games are on a YouTube channel.
2:01:17
SPEAKER_00: And it's it's crazy.
2:01:18
SPEAKER_00: Like again, I'm saying a swear word always and never.
2:01:23
SPEAKER_00: Almost all the I call those swear words, um, the other stuff we call them colorful language, but um almost all the local kids that express interest, I say, Hey, have you have you watched this play?
2:01:35
SPEAKER_00: And uh like, oh no, I you know, your games conflict.
2:01:37
SPEAKER_00: We don't have lights, why don't we three o'clock?
2:01:39
SPEAKER_00: Right.
2:01:40
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, well, no, but all of our home games are on a YouTube channel, and you can just kind of see the look, and I'm not trying to back them into a corner, but you can just see the look on that.
2:01:48
SPEAKER_00: I was like, oh, I didn't even think about researching.
2:01:50
SPEAKER_00: And the amount of the international kids, again, always a swear word, but almost all of them.
2:01:56
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, I've seen you play.
2:01:58
SPEAKER_00: I looked up your YouTube channel, I like your style of play.
2:02:00
SPEAKER_00: You know, they're just um I don't know if it's more aware or mature, or maybe the agencies, it's a very small population, and most of our answers to the international interest and domestic are no because of financially we're not.
2:02:16
SPEAKER_00: We can't give you the we yeah, we're not the money ball game, you know.
2:02:20
SPEAKER_00: We're we're not the cheapest game in town.
2:02:21
SPEAKER_00: So there's a kid, man.
2:02:24
SPEAKER_00: Uh this is a couple months now.
2:02:28
SPEAKER_00: There's a kid that was playing for Palmares, just like U20s.
2:02:32
SPEAKER_00: And he talked about a kid that jumped off a computer screen with highlight video, like this kid, and our one of our assistants, Marlon, the former player who's from Brazil.
2:02:42
SPEAKER_00: I sent the video to him.
2:02:43
SPEAKER_00: I go, can you check on this kid?
2:02:46
SPEAKER_00: And uh he goes, Yeah, I and I reached out to him on social media or WhatsApp or something.
2:02:51
SPEAKER_00: He's like, Yeah, I thought he was gonna be a pro.
2:02:52
SPEAKER_00: I bet he thought he was gonna be a pro.
2:02:54
SPEAKER_00: I think he's gonna be a pro too.
2:02:56
SPEAKER_00: Um, let's get him on a zoom meeting, you know, start out the zoom meeting and the kids like the kids like trying to figure out.
2:03:05
SPEAKER_00: And the assistant who knows a little bit about our budget because he's heard me so off on it a few times, is like, hey coach, uh he he was kind of afraid to tell me, like, he's wondering how much we're gonna pay him.
2:03:22
SPEAKER_00: He didn't make Paul Maris's like first team, so they're like brooming him, you know.
2:03:25
SPEAKER_00: Well, he thought he was gonna be a pro, so his grades weren't good.
2:03:27
SPEAKER_00: We give him a lot of academic scholarship.
2:03:29
SPEAKER_00: We can make we can make it very affordable, but we really like need kids with like good grades, and then the money stacks up, you know.
2:03:38
SPEAKER_00: So we don't exclusively chase kids that have a 3.8, but we favor kids with good grades because no, we don't shy away from that.
2:03:45
SPEAKER_00: I don't think they're any smarter, but I think they're more mature to finish their work, they take it serious.
2:03:50
SPEAKER_00: Um, but for us in Moneyball, they get a lot more money, it makes it more affordable.
2:03:55
SPEAKER_00: Uh, but this kid's GPA, I mean, it would have cost us a I said, hey man, my stomach like hurts saying this, but we're not able.
2:04:04
SPEAKER_00: If I give you the money that you need to come here, we won't have a good team.
2:04:08
SPEAKER_00: Like I I think we're sort of uh I think we're sort of let's compare the NBA where it's it's like uh five on five.
2:04:21
SPEAKER_00: Typically, not always, the top three players on the team in a five on five, the top three win the game.
2:04:28
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
2:04:29
SPEAKER_00: In our game, I think the the bottom two guys on the field lose the game.
2:04:34
SPEAKER_00: We have we have we have to be good at every position.
2:04:37
SPEAKER_00: You can't just have three guys in the game of 11-11 and always win the game, uh, particularly in college, because whether the we play some really good teams and we play some teams that struggle a bit, there's just a really broad range in the NAIA.
2:04:51
SPEAKER_00: Um, but the kids that aren't as technical, if you will, they're very physical.
2:04:57
SPEAKER_00: It's very hard to break them down.
2:04:58
SPEAKER_00: And the coaches are all good, like the teams are well well organized.
2:05:01
SPEAKER_00: So it's still it's still hard, you know.
2:05:04
SPEAKER_00: Um, but the substitution rules, something our international guys have trouble sort of acclimating to, is they're playing for youth clubs, sorry, they're playing for youth teams in a pro system.
2:05:17
SPEAKER_00: And at some point they get cut out of the pro pathway.
2:05:21
SPEAKER_00: So they're more mature that way, you know.
2:05:24
SPEAKER_00: Um, but in terms of how they play the game, when they get subbed out, they're out.
2:05:28
SPEAKER_00: Well, in the world I'm living in, if you get subbed out in the first half, you're putting it back in, you get another chance in the second half.
2:05:35
SPEAKER_00: And then in the second half, if you're a little bit gassed or winded, I could sub you off and then put you back in.
2:05:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you get one re-entry.
2:05:43
SPEAKER_00: So the the pace of the game never slows down for the better soccer.
2:05:49
SPEAKER_00: It's always a crazy speed because of the substitution rules.
2:05:52
SPEAKER_00: And there's no limit on how many kids you play in a game or the world I live in.
2:05:57
SPEAKER_00: You know, not say we want to play 24 guys a game.
2:06:00
SPEAKER_00: We need to have a rhythm, but there's no limit, there's no rule.
2:06:03
SPEAKER_00: So could when this when the standard starts to suffer, coaches can just put in fresh legs.
2:06:09
SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm not saying the quality stays the same, but kids are fit, kids are strong, they're organized, they're tough to beat.
2:06:16
SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's just so challenging, and the international guys kind of struggle with that.
2:06:21
SPEAKER_00: They're there's especially, you know, stereotyping here a little bit, but the South American guys are looking to slow the speed of the play down to let their skills show.
2:06:30
SPEAKER_00: And they're kind of passing not to play a player out of the game, not passing to penetrate.
2:06:36
SPEAKER_00: They're passing just to move the defense and kind of tire them out, like sideline to sideline.
2:06:42
SPEAKER_01: You can't tire anybody out.
2:06:43
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, well, that's that's not gonna happen.
2:06:45
SPEAKER_00: There's gonna have new kids.
2:06:46
SPEAKER_00: So culturally, we had some hard years about trying to find common ground about our style of play and our vision and what will work.
2:06:56
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I'm very grateful to the guys in the program because they'll big brother the new guys off the field, not on the field.
2:07:02
SPEAKER_00: Not in the field, a lot of it is like, hey, that's not effective here.
2:07:06
SPEAKER_00: I understand that worked back at home, but that doesn't work here.
2:07:11
SPEAKER_00: You have to adjust to the game you're playing here.
2:07:14
SPEAKER_00: Um and when the guys hear it from their big brothers in the program, it has a lot more weight than me, than me chatting them up in the middle of a training session, you know.
2:07:24
SPEAKER_01: Did you look at it like that when you were coaching the women back in the day, too?
2:07:28
SPEAKER_01: Like the subbing patterns and stuff like that?
2:07:31
SPEAKER_01: Um there wasn't a draw.
2:07:33
SPEAKER_00: I always well, I always thought we needed 18 kids that could play in the starting 11.
2:07:37
SPEAKER_00: I still think that.
2:07:38
SPEAKER_00: Like we went to the national tournaments last year and we had four or five starters out of our starting 11.
2:07:45
SPEAKER_00: Just they just, I mean, they just got worn down, like non-contact injuries.
2:07:50
SPEAKER_00: Uh, we go six days a week, you know, for months on end.
2:07:53
SPEAKER_00: And the kids just aren't, they don't have a deep base fitness.
2:07:56
SPEAKER_00: Um, and we're asking a lot of them.
2:07:58
SPEAKER_00: And um there were some unfortunate, you know, I don't want to go on a referee rant, but we had some unfortunate um tackles laid into us that put some guys out.
2:08:08
SPEAKER_00: Um, I thought the shoe we had a special team, and um, we ended up losing in the second round 4-3 in overtime to the team that lost in the national final like 2-1.
2:08:20
SPEAKER_00: Uh, I thought we were right there.
2:08:22
SPEAKER_00: Um and I'm never I'm never sure that we're gonna be we've been able to win our conference six of the last nine years in the regular season.
2:08:29
SPEAKER_01: You're in a tough conference.
2:08:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Indiana Tech, Indiana Tech has won the conference tournament seven years in a row.
2:08:37
SPEAKER_00: Um, so they're they've been impressive.
2:08:39
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, six of the last nine years, like we've had a couple of like really cool generations uh come through.
2:08:46
SPEAKER_00: Um and now we need to, we had a lot of really good seniors this last fall who are graduating out.
2:08:53
SPEAKER_00: Uh so we had a really good fall, and um our spring was not was not as productive.
2:08:59
SPEAKER_00: So we're leaning into our guys for what they're doing in the summer, and we're bringing in a bunch of kids that are gonna have an open run at at playing time, you know.
2:09:09
SPEAKER_01: How how how's the health of the NA NAIA as a whole?
2:09:14
SPEAKER_01: I mean, we lost Sienna Heights, yeah.
2:09:17
SPEAKER_00: It's weird, and just in our conference, we used to play against Mary Grove, gone.
2:09:21
SPEAKER_00: We used to play against Siena Heights, gone.
2:09:23
SPEAKER_00: We used to play against Concordia, gone, and now Lords.
2:09:26
SPEAKER_00: Lords, just yeah, so I think that's happening a lot of different places.
2:09:34
SPEAKER_00: We're not it's not just in our conference in our own.
2:09:36
SPEAKER_01: It's not just in AIA either, right?
2:09:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think higher ed is is is struggling, just the cost to go to school, and I don't know the answer to that riddle.
2:09:46
SPEAKER_00: Why, why does it cost so much?
2:09:48
SPEAKER_00: I asked um the guy that's running our head of finance here several years ago.
2:09:54
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, why what is I mean, what it's not the teachers.
2:09:58
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's not people, I think sometimes on the outside of the walls of education think the professors are tenured and sitting on stacks of money.
2:10:05
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, they're that's not true, not a Madonna.
2:10:09
SPEAKER_00: Um and uh some great teachers and professors, but they're not, you know, that's not where all the money's going in.
2:10:17
SPEAKER_00: He's like, Coach, you have no idea how much everyone wants to put up new buildings.
2:10:22
SPEAKER_00: You don't know how much, you don't realize how much it costs to maintain those buildings and those parking lots, and those costs are just everybody wants the new cathedral.
2:10:34
SPEAKER_00: You know, it takes takes money to build it, but it takes money to maintain it.
2:10:38
SPEAKER_00: Um, so there's just a such a high expectation, not for the value of education, but for the value of the lifestyle.
2:10:46
SPEAKER_00: You know, and an example I would love to tell our recruits say the men's soccer guys get free tutoring.
2:10:52
SPEAKER_00: Well, the truth is, and I'm just brutally honest with families, like every student at Madonna has access to free tutoring.
2:11:00
SPEAKER_00: Well, the truth is tutoring is not free.
2:11:02
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's all baked into the tuition, right?
2:11:05
SPEAKER_00: So there's a standard, like when I was going to school at Madonna, we didn't have free tutoring available to us, you know, then the new dorms, you know, it's like this lifestyle that's well beyond just the bones of an education, um, whether it's the amenities of the new dorm rooms or the free tutoring or the higher quality food in the dorms, like all that costs, you know, and it's all baked into the tuition.
2:11:33
SPEAKER_00: So there's like this arms race, you know, in terms of the value of the education and the value of the experience, you know.
2:11:40
SPEAKER_00: And now there's not a lot of alternatives, you know.
2:11:45
SPEAKER_01: Do you feel like I feel like what you just said about how people view like standing on stacks of money, all these teachers and the professors and stuff.
2:11:57
SPEAKER_01: I feel like that's going on in soccer clubs too.
2:12:00
SPEAKER_01: That everybody thinks that everybody's making millions and millions of dollars.
2:12:04
SPEAKER_01: And it's like, it's not that much money because you don't realize how much wisdom takes to rent or indoor or after all of all the desk dust settles, it's there's not that much left over.
2:12:18
SPEAKER_00: No, yeah.
2:12:19
SPEAKER_00: It's it's just uh it's strange in the margins.
2:12:22
SPEAKER_00: And I think I just think in the soccer, I don't feel comfortable saying this, but I'm gonna say soccer industry.
2:12:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and the soccer path, there's such a a broad range of what people I I there was a club not from actual Detroit.
2:12:40
SPEAKER_00: A director was talking about applying to the director's academy from MSYSA.
2:12:44
SPEAKER_00: And the director of the club called me and was kind of looking for a little bit of a cheat sheet of hey, I know you look over the applications and uh give some feedback to the state office.
2:12:54
SPEAKER_00: Like, what do you look for?
2:12:56
SPEAKER_00: You know, what is it worth me applying?
2:12:58
SPEAKER_00: Was the real question.
2:12:59
SPEAKER_00: So I started about staffing and licenses and standards.
2:13:03
SPEAKER_00: And right away she's like, Well, we don't have the money, we don't want the money.
2:13:06
SPEAKER_00: And I told her how much I made working for the Rush in Northville and really downriver in Northville and Jackson Lansing.
2:13:15
SPEAKER_00: And I was a poor man's consultant, very much sort of Jackson Lansing, because I did I was so rooted in Northville and downriver.
2:13:21
SPEAKER_00: Um I I I was more phone call away than I was, you know, hitting hard yards with them.
2:13:27
SPEAKER_00: Um but I I said, well, this is how much I would, and I didn't realize how much other people were making, quite frankly.
2:13:33
SPEAKER_00: I was very naive to that, as well as many other things.
2:13:36
SPEAKER_00: Um, but I I said, I just think there's a broad range.
2:13:40
SPEAKER_00: I don't think all coaches are expecting to make what you're telling me they need to make and you don't have the budget for, you know.
2:13:46
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
2:13:47
SPEAKER_00: But so much of the budget is going to what I call the infrastructure, the referee assigner, the field rentals.
2:13:54
SPEAKER_00: People don't don't know behind the scenes in terms of uh cost of goals and insurance.
2:13:59
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's that's it's it's a lot of heavy lifting of money that you just don't see.
2:14:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know.
2:14:06
SPEAKER_00: Um, what they see is the coach.
2:14:09
SPEAKER_00: Um, and the coaches I think are hypersensitive to feeling like they're doing honorable work and that they're valued.
2:14:16
SPEAKER_00: And I think that gets misconstrued into the feeling that you need to win, you know, um, because parent expectations are so diverse, and coaches don't all, but it's kind of common to think like the lowest common to not like uh the parents I have to win, they're paying a lot of money, like they feel that pressure, you know.
2:14:40
SPEAKER_00: Um well they don't all expect you to win every game, right?
2:14:43
SPEAKER_00: A lot of them, you know.
2:14:45
SPEAKER_00: So, but uh the coaches feel like they're being scrutinized, and sometimes they are, uh, let's be honest.
2:14:52
SPEAKER_00: But I think their coaches are overly sensitive about it.
2:14:56
SPEAKER_00: But but it's a tough world.
2:14:58
SPEAKER_00: I sometimes talk to our athletic director, who's been great for us here at Madonna, he's uh our basketball, he's in the hall of fame as a basketball player.
2:15:05
SPEAKER_00: It's our current basketball coach who's been well they've been really successful last few years under his coaching, and he's he's also athletic director.
2:15:14
SPEAKER_00: And I'm kind of talking in jest, I'm kind of being a bad smart alex.
2:15:18
SPEAKER_00: I I really believe in the power of education.
2:15:20
SPEAKER_00: But I said, hey man, like our scores are on a website.
2:15:23
SPEAKER_00: Whether it's the referee's fault or the weather, our scores are on a website.
2:15:27
SPEAKER_00: What if everybody's grades were on a website?
2:15:29
SPEAKER_00: You know, what if it was all public?
2:15:31
SPEAKER_00: You know, one or why other coaches are always skittish, you know, like I need the next player, I need this, I need that.
2:15:37
SPEAKER_00: We feel like every decision carries the whole weight of our season.
2:15:41
SPEAKER_00: It's just amplified, you know, we're so out of proportion because we just feel like every decision, every moment impacts that result.
2:15:52
SPEAKER_00: And we want to do the best for our group, that we want to do the best for our kids, we want to honor our alumni, and you know, hopefully they look on us in a in a proud way.
2:16:02
SPEAKER_00: And we feel like we're under so much pressure, just trying to do the best we can, you know.
2:16:08
SPEAKER_00: Um, when I say we, I mean I mean the coaching community in general.
2:16:12
SPEAKER_00: So uh it just gets distorted, you know, because we've all heard the horror stories of the parents.
2:16:19
SPEAKER_00: Well, they don't like this coach.
2:16:21
SPEAKER_03: Oh yeah.
2:16:22
SPEAKER_00: Uh I I was talking to a director of the I know State Cup's not what it used to be a generation ago, but just want a State Cup, you know, and the parents were like, Yeah, we want a new coach, you know.
2:16:33
SPEAKER_00: It's like did he was he swearing at kids or was it?
2:16:37
SPEAKER_00: No, he just the kid, the the kids he didn't he didn't rotate the subs in enough or thought there was too much of a call.
2:16:44
SPEAKER_00: Well, they wouldn't have one state.
2:16:46
SPEAKER_00: It's like, so what do you want?
2:16:47
SPEAKER_00: You know, do you want to win State Cup or everybody equal playing?
2:16:50
SPEAKER_00: It's like sometimes the coaches feel like they just can't make everyone happy, you know, and then they're trusting their directors to support them.
2:16:58
SPEAKER_00: It's a very vulnerable, it's a very vulnerable place, you know.
2:17:03
SPEAKER_00: So I I have a lot of empathy for, and I've been there, man.
2:17:08
SPEAKER_00: You know, I've uh and I've lived it, you know.
2:17:10
SPEAKER_01: So do you miss being on the field?
2:17:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I'm still connected.
2:17:13
SPEAKER_00: I mean with the Manana guys, I'm I'm I'm putting in some hard yards.
2:17:17
SPEAKER_00: I mean, we're very active.
2:17:19
SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm I'm coaching players.
2:17:22
SPEAKER_00: What about the club six days a week?
2:17:23
SPEAKER_00: What about the club game?
2:17:24
SPEAKER_00: I'm kind of substitute teacher, you know.
2:17:26
SPEAKER_00: Uh I'll hop in.
2:17:27
SPEAKER_00: It's not the same, it's not the same connection.
2:17:29
SPEAKER_00: Players don't know me.
2:17:30
SPEAKER_00: I don't I don't know them.
2:17:31
SPEAKER_00: Right.
2:17:32
SPEAKER_00: I'm not comfortable with my activities, the language that I use um in terms of some phrases.
2:17:37
SPEAKER_00: Um, it's just new to them.
2:17:39
SPEAKER_00: So, and I'm hit and miss.
2:17:41
SPEAKER_00: The thing that I liked most about the youth game, I really liked coaching teams for just one year, actually.
2:17:49
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I know that a lot of people are split on that, but I really felt so much like value and satisfaction.
2:17:57
SPEAKER_00: It's my misguided ego.
2:17:58
SPEAKER_00: I felt so much like satisfaction when I was done coaching a group of players, but I would watch them still in the club.
2:18:06
SPEAKER_00: I'd kind of watch them grow up.
2:18:08
SPEAKER_00: I wasn't coaching them, but I really enjoyed guys like an Eric Rudland or an Eck Darren or those guys coaching them after I'm done.
2:18:16
SPEAKER_00: I was like, if I had kids, I would want my kids playing for those guys, right?
2:18:20
SPEAKER_00: You know.
2:18:21
SPEAKER_00: Um, but to watch them do their work with those kids that I used to coach, I just felt like that was so cool.
2:18:28
SPEAKER_00: I got such a sense of satisfaction of I put my work in with them.
2:18:33
SPEAKER_00: I I just gave them a little bit of an imprint of the game for a year or two, and then I want to just watch them keep going.
2:18:40
SPEAKER_00: I just think it was so cool.
2:18:41
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
2:18:42
SPEAKER_00: So I really enjoy that trajectory in the youth club where you just watch a kid grow up.
2:18:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
2:18:49
SPEAKER_01: Um how how many of all your stops in Europe and in South America that you just went and observed, how many of those academies only had one age group coach?
2:19:03
SPEAKER_01: Whereas they were only with a team for a year?
2:19:05
SPEAKER_00: Good question.
2:19:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
2:19:06
SPEAKER_00: And I rarely, I felt like for continuity reasons, most of the time I had a team for two years from experience, but my preference was to be right.
2:19:16
SPEAKER_00: But there were some teams where I wasn't a good fit, whether I was pushing the girls or guys more than they wanted to be pushed, or the parents thought I should, you know, they had different expectations of what I thought the team was capable of.
2:19:28
SPEAKER_00: There were some teams that I've had from the age of, you know, 20 to 49, where it's like, hey, this isn't this isn't a good fit.
2:19:37
SPEAKER_00: Um, but most of the time in the first year, it went pretty well.
2:19:43
SPEAKER_00: I felt myself, one of my flaws, and there are many, in the second year.
2:19:49
SPEAKER_00: Like, if I'm saying the same thing to the kid, I I don't think it's like you need to get faster, but it's like a decision or an awareness of like, I'm not getting through to this kid.
2:19:59
SPEAKER_00: I'm frustrated myself, getting kind of frustrated at the kid, like he's not responding to the coaching.
2:20:05
SPEAKER_00: Most of the frustration that I would feel impacting players, I felt like in the youth was in like the second year.
2:20:13
SPEAKER_00: It wasn't the first year.
2:20:15
SPEAKER_00: The first year I felt like um I could really get a lot accomplished.
2:20:21
SPEAKER_00: But some of those things that weren't changing in the player, um, I felt like the second year I would get a little bit more cagey.
2:20:29
SPEAKER_00: And then I it was easy for me because at the time, so misappropriate inappropriate comment, my misguided ego, I could get rid of myself pretty easily.
2:20:39
SPEAKER_00: Just put my hand up and say, Hey, we're gonna have a new coach.
2:20:42
SPEAKER_00: I don't feel like I'm getting across what we need to get across.
2:20:45
SPEAKER_00: Um, so I wouldn't say it was my fault or the kid's fault or anyone else's fault, I'd say it's not a good fit, you know.
2:20:51
SPEAKER_00: Um, so it was easy for me to, but I really like look forward to guys like an Eric Rudliner and Nick taking the team over and just taking them to the next layer.
2:21:00
SPEAKER_00: Like we're we're all just one spoke in a big wheel, you know, and just we just put our time in, the kid goes on.
2:21:08
SPEAKER_00: Um, I know IX was pretty firm about the one year, almost like a specialist.
2:21:13
SPEAKER_00: Uh, I remember talking to Mark Plusik.
2:21:14
SPEAKER_00: We had him back uh for MSY for coaching at peace, and he coached a youth team at Bruce Dortmund when Christian was there.
2:21:22
SPEAKER_03: Right.
2:21:22
SPEAKER_00: And Mark's got a UFAA, he's he's legit, not only as a former player, and Kelly, Christian's mom, was a good time player.
2:21:29
SPEAKER_03: Right.
2:21:30
SPEAKER_00: Um, but he's also a legit coach.
2:21:32
SPEAKER_00: Um so they hired him to, I don't remember if it was a U-12, U13 Bruce Dortman, like academy team.
2:21:40
SPEAKER_00: And um he said they were pretty, pretty consistent with one year, but he he did share that coaches were looking to sort of move up their food chain in terms of their first mountain, their status, economics, a higher profile team.
2:21:57
SPEAKER_00: Um, it wasn't toxic, but it was competitive.
2:22:00
SPEAKER_02: Right.
2:22:00
SPEAKER_00: It wasn't, you know, we're all just a bunch of buddies sitting around the Bruce Dortman Youth Academy office telling each other how good we are.
2:22:07
SPEAKER_00: It was iron sharpens iron, you know, like let's get better, let's get better.
2:22:12
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I think of competition, Latin root word competeer, we strive together.
2:22:18
SPEAKER_00: So I think of it, you know, like we we go together.
2:22:22
SPEAKER_00: Um, but there's some different thoughts in competition of we're competing against each other.
2:22:28
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, you know, um, and depending on the culture that you're in, you know, Marx was like, hey, it was it was intense, man.
2:22:35
SPEAKER_00: He goes, I wasn't like insecure about it, or I wasn't bothered by it because economically I wasn't there to to be a Bruce Dortmund youth coach.
2:22:43
SPEAKER_00: But for those who are making their living doing that and taking care of families doing that, like it uh it was intense.
2:22:51
SPEAKER_00: You know, there's pressure on players, but there's pressure on coaches.
2:22:54
SPEAKER_01: Christian was here for one year.
2:22:56
SPEAKER_00: Well, he was here for he was here for a few years, but I only I only had him for one year.
2:23:01
SPEAKER_01: Mark.
2:23:02
SPEAKER_01: He was here to coach was here to wheels to coach.
2:23:05
SPEAKER_00: But he was he was here to coach the Detroit Ignition.
2:23:07
SPEAKER_00: Detroit Ignition.
2:23:08
SPEAKER_00: At the old compulsion, it's not to say hockey.
2:23:11
SPEAKER_00: So that's what brought him to Plymouth.
2:23:13
SPEAKER_00: Um so Eric Rudland and Nick Darren and I each were able to work with Christian, and his dad was there.
2:23:21
SPEAKER_01: He was here for three years.
2:23:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, his dad was the coach.
2:23:25
SPEAKER_00: Mark was the coach, and then became the general manager, brought Bob Lilly and was with him with the house for a long time.
2:23:31
SPEAKER_00: They were like college roommates, like really close friends.
2:23:34
SPEAKER_00: I just met Bob a couple times, seemed like a great guy.
2:23:36
SPEAKER_00: But Mark, I got closer to uh Christian's sister, was pretty good too.
2:23:41
SPEAKER_00: Dee Dee.
2:23:42
SPEAKER_00: She now, um, I'm not gonna get this right because I don't know this world, but she like like kind of breeds and trains like horses.
2:23:50
SPEAKER_00: Horses, she's horse losses.
2:23:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think they moved out of Pennsylvania down to Florida.
2:23:55
SPEAKER_00: Okay, she has a family of her own now, but right, but that was her her love.
2:23:58
SPEAKER_00: But she was a pretty good soccer player.
2:24:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
2:24:00
SPEAKER_00: Um the parents were awesome parents.
2:24:03
SPEAKER_01: They were not they're not the helicopter parents.
2:24:06
SPEAKER_01: They weren't pushing them.
2:24:07
SPEAKER_00: They we we we actually like offered just naively, like, we'll give them more, we'll give him more.
2:24:14
SPEAKER_00: And we're like, hey, Christian, one year he played uh two age groups.
2:24:18
SPEAKER_01: I remember that.
2:24:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and we're like, well, he could he could train, he could train the other days that that team's not training with this other team.
2:24:25
SPEAKER_00: And they were like, no, no, no, we don't, we don't want well, he's gonna golf, he's gonna play basketball, he's gonna have his friends.
2:24:30
SPEAKER_00: We want him when he comes to training to want, we want him to run out of the car.
2:24:35
SPEAKER_00: If he's not running out of the car to the field, we need to pull pull him back, you know.
2:24:40
SPEAKER_00: And if we have to shout at him a little bit, and they never had to, he's such a nice kid.
2:24:45
SPEAKER_00: Uh, well, we need to like shout at him to get back in the car.
2:24:48
SPEAKER_00: We want him to want to stay on the field.
2:24:51
SPEAKER_00: You know, they would say that to us privately.
2:24:52
SPEAKER_00: We don't want him doing soccer every day and get burned up.
2:24:55
SPEAKER_00: They would play some games in the backyard, as Mark and Kelly were such good players.
2:25:01
SPEAKER_00: And Mark said to me one time they put like a trash can in the backyard, and they would like work on ball striking, it was empty.
2:25:08
SPEAKER_00: They would try to knock it over.
2:25:09
SPEAKER_00: So, can you hit the top of the trash can?
2:25:12
SPEAKER_00: Can you chip it in the trash can?
2:25:13
SPEAKER_00: You know, can you bend it around the trash can?
2:25:16
SPEAKER_00: And he said they had a couple trees in the yard.
2:25:17
SPEAKER_00: He's like, Can you let's try to hit the ball through those two branches?
2:25:21
SPEAKER_00: You know, so they would, but he said, We I wouldn't do that, I wouldn't let him do that too long.
2:25:25
SPEAKER_00: I would I would pick up the soccer ball and give him a basketball and say, Okay, you know, throw a football in the backyard.
2:25:31
SPEAKER_00: So he was working on his game, but a lot of it was a little bit unstructured.
2:25:35
SPEAKER_00: It was guised as play.
2:25:37
SPEAKER_00: Um, and then a little bit of a cheat sheet, Mark and Kelly could ping a ball.
2:25:43
SPEAKER_00: Um, so a lot of a lot of that, you know, we go back to culture, he's a product of his environment.
2:25:49
SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, he was he was special.
2:25:53
SPEAKER_00: Um wasn't anything to do with us at the time, but uh, and I don't know if it was Mark's playing days as an AJ or the video uh family was kind of spread out geographically, so they would like share like video on YouTube and stuff.
2:26:07
SPEAKER_00: So Barcelona got some of his video and uh flew him over like twice during the time that he was here, that he was with us.
2:26:15
SPEAKER_01: Because I remember because it was at Wixham.
2:26:17
SPEAKER_01: There's a video I can I remember vividly the video.
2:26:21
SPEAKER_01: He's like in the left corner, and then he just like dribbles and he's up against guys maybe a head taller because he's playing up.
2:26:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and then and then there was a news thing about like oh yeah, he's going to Barcelona.
2:26:34
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, Oh, that's cool.
2:26:35
SPEAKER_01: Michigan Rush kid going to little did I know, I forgot that it was I didn't realize who that was at the time.
2:26:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
2:26:43
SPEAKER_01: It's like, oh, it's Christian Paris.
2:26:45
SPEAKER_00: So uh Mark and Kevin were just such good stewards, and uh they were like they didn't want to put any pressure on him, you know.
2:26:51
SPEAKER_00: He was like nine years old, so they said, Hey, for your like an early birthday present, you get we he loved Barcelona.
2:26:58
SPEAKER_00: Um, and we could you get you we got you uh passed to a camp.
2:27:01
SPEAKER_00: You're going to a camp for the week, you know.
2:27:04
SPEAKER_00: Um well, really it was a trial, that's what it was, you know.
2:27:07
SPEAKER_00: But they didn't want him to change out, play the work.
2:27:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they still wanted him to play the game, they didn't want to put any of that pressure on him.
2:27:15
SPEAKER_00: So um apparent Mark was like, I know I shouldn't say he was very respectful as a parent, so humble.
2:27:23
SPEAKER_00: Um he's like, you should have seen like there was some games towards the end of the week where he just like he just rose to another level.
2:27:30
SPEAKER_00: Like it was unbelievable.
2:27:32
SPEAKER_00: Um so the family wasn't at that time, they were worried about the play becoming work.
2:27:40
SPEAKER_00: Like Mark had a UFA license, so they the FIFA laws and stuff, they could have hired him to coach in La Macia, and then that allows the work permit and the whole family to move.
2:27:50
SPEAKER_00: Um, but they didn't want to put that pressure on.
2:27:53
SPEAKER_00: So they just said, hey, thanks, but not, we're not saying no, but not yet.
2:27:57
SPEAKER_00: So I don't know the details.
2:27:59
SPEAKER_00: Barcelona was asking for keep sending video, they stayed in touch, and then uh I think it was after the third year, um, they had a leadership change and Mark was out of a job with the ignition.
2:28:12
SPEAKER_00: They did he did a great job, yeah, but whatever.
2:28:16
SPEAKER_00: Um, whatever the values were of the leadership group, they wanted to move on.
2:28:21
SPEAKER_00: So they went back to Pennsylvania, kind of grew up playing for the classics, and then Bruce and Dartman.
2:28:27
SPEAKER_00: But um, I always felt a little bit uncomfortable.
2:28:30
SPEAKER_00: The rush, not in a negative way, it wasn't manipulative or anything, but they wanted us to like take some credit almost, you know, and like Mark, and I always felt I told them one one year at the convention, Mark and Kelly presented, and kind of uh kind of like I'm gonna say this in an inarticulate way, but like responsible parenting type topic.
2:28:51
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I told them that.
2:28:54
SPEAKER_00: And Kelly was like, Oh, Christian loved his time.
2:28:57
SPEAKER_00: Well, you shouldn't feel like guilty about that, you know.
2:29:00
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, and Mark kind of nodded, like, hey, I appreciate not that he wanted the spotlight, they were awesome the whole way through, but I go, I just didn't feel good about it, you know.
2:29:11
SPEAKER_00: Um, and the Michigan Rush did some things, and the Rush soccer guys did some things, but I said, Hey, my claim to fame is I didn't mess them up.
2:29:19
SPEAKER_00: I didn't, it's not like I developed them, you know.
2:29:22
SPEAKER_00: I mean, the kid, kid was special, you know, came from him and his parents.
2:29:27
SPEAKER_00: So, but they were just tremendous people.
2:29:30
SPEAKER_00: Last time I saw Mark, he's like, Hey, how's Eric?
2:29:33
SPEAKER_00: How's Mick?
2:29:33
SPEAKER_01: I mean, he's cool, cool people.
2:29:36
SPEAKER_01: Because wasn't he, wasn't he gonna be waiting he he was at the expo?
2:29:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
2:29:42
SPEAKER_00: I asked him to come back and uh we had him in for MSYSA several years ago, and he compared player development and Bruce Dortmund versus what U.S.
2:29:52
SPEAKER_00: soccer is doing.
2:29:53
SPEAKER_00: So, because he's lived in both worlds, right?
2:29:55
SPEAKER_00: And he wasn't anti-American, he was of course, he was he was all he's a product of that system, you know.
2:30:01
SPEAKER_00: So um, it was just a really good comparison for what's important in Germany at these ages, what do you focus on?
2:30:07
SPEAKER_00: How do you select players?
2:30:08
SPEAKER_00: How often are there tryouts for new kids coming in?
2:30:11
SPEAKER_02: Right.
2:30:11
SPEAKER_00: How does Bruce Dortman really work versus a youth team in America?
2:30:16
SPEAKER_00: Um, so he did a kind of a comparison and contrasts, and then he also brought in Viz.
2:30:21
SPEAKER_00: Uh at the time he was assisting Bob Lidley at the Riverhounds, Pittsburgh Riverhounds, and Viser was an assistant as well.
2:30:29
SPEAKER_00: So he brought Viz with him, who's now the general manager, and um talk more about some 11v11 tech how the Pittsburgh Riverhounds prepare tactically.
2:30:41
SPEAKER_00: What do they do in training?
2:30:42
SPEAKER_00: What's their rhythm like?
2:30:43
SPEAKER_00: So it's a really cool coaching at event MSYSA put on.
2:30:47
SPEAKER_00: Um and that's when I had last seen Mark face to face, and then I asked him, like, hey, we're launching this expo.
2:30:56
SPEAKER_00: Would you mind doing something similar and coming back?
2:30:58
SPEAKER_00: And he was just so gracious.
2:31:00
SPEAKER_00: He was hey, I don't need a flight, I don't need a whole, I don't need anything.
2:31:04
SPEAKER_00: I'm happy to happy to come back.
2:31:06
SPEAKER_00: You guys were great to us.
2:31:07
SPEAKER_00: We love the area.
2:31:08
SPEAKER_00: I was all friends in the area, happy to come back for a couple of days.
2:31:11
SPEAKER_00: So he he came back to the expo last year.
2:31:13
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if I can twist his arm again, but hopefully.
2:31:17
SPEAKER_00: Uh uh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
2:31:19
SPEAKER_00: He's been great.
2:31:20
SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
2:31:21
SPEAKER_01: So thanks for doing this, man.
2:31:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thank you.
2:31:23
unknown: Thank you.
2:31:24
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if I had like two and a half hours.
2:31:27
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if I covered the ground you wanted me to cover.
2:31:29
SPEAKER_01: I just no man, this is just a conversation.
2:31:31
SPEAKER_01: This is just me and you catching up, telling some stories.
2:31:36
SPEAKER_00: I appreciate you.
2:31:36
SPEAKER_00: I appreciate your work in the game, man.
2:31:38
SPEAKER_00: And um, I thought you were a tremendous young coach, and I knew you were out in Buffalo working in the game, and then I started seeing the podcast come up on like my algorithm because I'm like, I don't read as much as I should and listen to podcast and audiobooks.
2:31:50
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, oh Jay, come on, man, he's preaching, man.
2:31:53
SPEAKER_00: He's preaching.
2:31:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's crazy.
2:31:56
SPEAKER_01: And this has been like so it's a bit an education now.
2:32:00
SPEAKER_01: Being able to talk to guys like you.
2:32:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's how I feel about my job.
2:32:04
SPEAKER_00: Like, I go watch coaches like every day.
2:32:08
SPEAKER_00: How spoiled am I to go watch guys like Mike Scobie, Eric Redland, Pete Pazowski, like all these, oh Nick Darren I watched last week, you know, and gave him some feedback.
2:32:19
SPEAKER_00: We really like got into the weeds.
2:32:21
SPEAKER_00: And um, these guys are so good, you know.
2:32:24
SPEAKER_01: You've always been like observing.
2:32:26
SPEAKER_01: I remember you were done at Madonna, and then you just went to OU and watched Parsons and Poe.
2:32:36
SPEAKER_00: For a full fall.
2:32:37
SPEAKER_00: For a full fall, just watched it was kind of fly on the wall, yeah.
2:32:40
SPEAKER_00: I was a little bit burned out with the Madonna Women and the club stuff, how much I was pouring into it for the lack of resources.
2:32:48
SPEAKER_00: The girls were great.
2:32:50
SPEAKER_00: Um, but I really ran myself in and I I had I wanted to really reflect in a really serious way.
2:32:57
SPEAKER_00: And I'd always heard so many good things about Gary Parsons, and the Oakland program's always been so successful.
2:33:02
SPEAKER_00: Pogey and I grew up together, but playing against each other, but we didn't know it.
2:33:07
SPEAKER_00: He's a 76, Tino's a 76, Tino Ceclona, Demir's a 76.
2:33:11
SPEAKER_00: We all grew up playing the same league.
2:33:12
SPEAKER_00: Okay, we didn't recognize it until we started, you know, got our coaching chops in.
2:33:16
SPEAKER_00: But so Poggy felt comfortable.
2:33:19
SPEAKER_00: He was kind of learning the craft to take over, but Gary was the godfather.
2:33:24
SPEAKER_00: And um I was like, hey man, my schedule's busy, but I want to learn more about the game.
2:33:31
SPEAKER_00: I just got done with a shift, running a call, small college program.
2:33:34
SPEAKER_00: I know I made a lot of mistakes, I know I did some things okay.
2:33:38
SPEAKER_00: But to reflect, I want to compare it against something.
2:33:43
SPEAKER_00: Are you guys okay if I'm like a volunteer?
2:33:45
SPEAKER_00: I don't need to get paid.
2:33:47
SPEAKER_00: I don't have time to travel with you, but I'd like to be at the home games in the training ground to watch and learn how you run a program.
2:33:54
SPEAKER_00: And Gary was pretty guarded at first.
2:33:57
SPEAKER_00: Like, what's your real agenda?
2:34:00
SPEAKER_00: You know, and um I think I, you know, I haven't convinced many people of many things, but I think I just kind of came across as being honest.
2:34:09
SPEAKER_00: And um he circled back to me and goes, let's have one more meeting.
2:34:13
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think I I don't know this, but I think Poggy had helped convince him as well.
2:34:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he doesn't have an agenda, he's not looking to he's not looking to bring the toxic stuff.
2:34:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
2:34:23
SPEAKER_00: He just wants to learn.
2:34:24
SPEAKER_00: And Gary didn't like believe it, to be honest.
2:34:28
SPEAKER_00: Like he's like, no, what do you really like?
2:34:30
SPEAKER_00: What do you really want?
2:34:32
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, no, that's I want to learn from you.
2:34:34
SPEAKER_00: That's it.
2:34:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, teach me more.
2:34:36
SPEAKER_00: You've you've won every year.
2:34:37
SPEAKER_00: You've been coaching here, yeah.
2:34:38
SPEAKER_00: Like you've never had a losing record, thinking I can learn a few things.
2:34:41
SPEAKER_00: So it ended up being really cool.
2:34:43
SPEAKER_00: It ended up being real cool.
2:34:45
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
2:34:45
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I appreciate you and the game and what you're doing for the game.
2:34:49
SPEAKER_00: I appreciate the opportunity.
2:34:50
SPEAKER_00: This is, I'm embarrassed to say, this is my first podcast.
2:34:52
SPEAKER_00: I've always shied away from I'm always afraid I'm gonna say some silly things and it's gonna be recorded.
2:34:59
SPEAKER_01: But uh a lot of people are gonna learn a lot from you, like I have.
2:35:07
SPEAKER_00: You know, absolutely.
2:35:08
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
2:35:09
SPEAKER_01: I appreciate you, brother.
2:35:10
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for your time, brother.
2:35:11
SPEAKER_01: Thanks.
2:35:12
SPEAKER_01: I hate soccer.