Latest / The Refrigeration Mentor Podcast / Episode 373. Installation Prep for a CO2 Refrigeration System

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Episode 373. Installation Prep for a CO2 Refrigeration System · The Refrigeration Mentor Podcast

• 0:00
  Trevor: Welcome to another Community meetup. Super excited to chat with you guys today. Had a big week this week. A HR show. Lots on the go there, which was a lot of fun. It's a lot of learning. If you haven't been before, it's, it's really good, at least to go once, to check, check it out, to see what's happening with the different manufacturers, talking with some of the experts, which is super cool.
• 0:01
  Andrew: Oh, great. Again, can't go wrong with morning coffee and talking about refrigeration with, with you and, and the group here. So yeah, it's one of my favorite morning activities, to be honest. So
• 0:02
  Andrew: Yeah. I mean, so, the accident occurred off work hours.
• 0:03
  But yeah, that's where I was heading. And then I reinjured it and what you mentioned, I was the, had a crane and we were picking this compressor off. Off the roof. But the crane was about 10 feet short, so I had to swing out the I guess the cable out to pick this compressor up. Well, as it was pulling that compressor, it slid and all of a sudden it fell in between.
• 0:04
  I was like, I can't do that. And we came up with a solution. I got an apprentice following me around right now he's learning. He's so it's kind of cool to have that. And that's how we, that's how we tackled it. Just communication is, is really the key here in letting know, letting your boss know that, like it's, I know it's not ideal but.
• 0:05
  It's hard. You don't wanna, you, especially when you're newer, you don't wanna let on that. I know I didn't. I would just wanted to push through and like, yeah, it's sore, but take some Advil or some Tylenol and just push through it. But that's where you. Can hurt yourself even more. I've seen it time and time again in construction where I had a, a worse back in the mid twenties than I do now in my mid forties.
• 0:06
  And there's a lot of guys that I see that went through it and they're in their sixties still working on it. And those guys took, when they worked smarter, right. I used to just take 200 pound cylinders, throw it on my shoulders and walk up the stairs. You know what I mean? Like just grab them and just drag them up the stairs.
• 0:07
  It's, it's pretty stiff in, it's pretty stiff in the morning, so I have to kind of work the knee out before I actually get out of bed. So stretching and just icing really. Yep. And it's progressively getting better. I mean, that's, that's the. The good thing. So, but that's really, that's pretty much all I'm doing and but also the biggest thing is taking it easy.
• 0:08
  Okay, so, so you're back at work it's cool that your company has someone that's fallen you and have the apprentice with you 'cause you can train at the same time so that, it's unfortunate that this has happened, but now there's more of a training. Aspect happening, you can teach them a little bit more, a little bit extra where you don't always get this opportunity because you can't send two technicians on a job site.
• 0:09
  So. I think companies, that's hard on companies too. That's why like I, I do trainings and teach, journeymen and stuff, how to teach them, how do you relay that message? I think that's so, so important. And you gotta learn. The best teachers can say it in eight different ways, yeah. So one of those ways, those apprentices get it.
• 0:10
  He never, never knew anything about that. So I explained to him what that little stem is for. Basically just a manually open, where you could force that thing just to be open, regardless of power to, or if the coil has failed, you could just have it go. Actually, we had two of those. One on a rack system as well changing out.
• 0:11
  So for me, I ask him, okay, this is, this is what's going on. If I already know this case I already did with the solenoid valve. Yeah. So I asked him, what would be your steps of, of changing this solenoid valve out? Then he'll, he'll explain to me what he would do. And then, and that's when, if I need to, I'll tweak what, what the steps or the op order of operations, what we need to do to change out this solenoid valve.
• 0:12
  I already know how to pump down a system. I already know how to sweat in a valve. So yep, to me, to me it's more beneficial for the apprentice to do that work versus me. And the only time when I will jump in is when I see a potential danger or mm-hmm. It's taken a little bit too much time to complete.
• 0:13
  You can do it that way. But good trainers have to, you gotta have. Patience. Right? And if you explain it properly in different ways, usually it'll take a few times. 'cause just remember, this is the first time they may be ever doing this, so you have to have patience. It's like, think about when you were the first time you rode a bike, if you ever rode a bike.
• 0:14
  Andrew: Yeah, I, I think being more, more curious than, than more being more curious of what they do know or what they don't know.
• 0:15
  So you definitely don't, don't wanna do that stuff. That's not being a leader, that's not being helpful. So, and you know what? I've probably done it in the past, where I didn't recognize doing that, just trying to get a job done, like just trying to rush. I got seven calls and I have an apprentice here.
• 0:16
  Trevor: That's good. Good training is because I, I love, what I loved about when I was training technicians in the field and apprentices was like, if I can teach them to be as good as me or better than me, then I can send, get them to go do calls or take my on call or go do a job that I can't make it to.
• 0:17
  For me it's 'cause today you can see everything online very quickly. You know what I mean? Like, and I'm always doing research on new, new products coming out, new things coming out, watching manufacturers, building stuff, and different organization, getting things out into the marketplace. It's a lot easier than it was 20 years ago.
• 0:18
  And then after that, because this is what I try to try to do, is a, a full look. At CO2, you start the beginning, understand the fundamentals, and you get in. The first step you need to do is you gotta get the information from the customer. What do they need? And then the next step is like, 'cause what are you trying to accomplish?
• 0:19
  So that's the, the design section. The next step in that presentation was this, here was the installation. 'cause after you have all that stuff done, the next step we'll be getting into that installation. So now you get a, if it's a new build, you get the building built. You know what I mean? You get the frame happening.
• 0:20
  And then for us as a technician, we need to know what the piping is. Okay? So there's kind of like a refrigeration schedule. So when you go in there, you're gonna have. A full laid out a pipe work section. So where do all the pipes go in the blueprints? So the refrigeration blueprints, when you work with a gc and you work with your team, they're gonna have electrical blueprints for the building.
• 0:21
  Type of pipe going to the different to that area. And how do we know what area it goes to? We need the piping layout. Right. So here's kind of a piping drawing. So where it goes in the building, it will look different on your blueprints, but but I kind of wanna just show like, here's the different piping.
• 0:22
  That's, it's by code. And as you can see here a different, a couple of different views is that this is stainless steel, but in the US you can use high pressure copper, copper, iron alloy. Okay? So it's a CCE UFEP two or C 1 9 6 0 0. And that's just high high. High pressure copper, and you can't mix this up, right?
• 0:23
  You can have four different types of pipe in your systems. That's way different than an HSC where you go in, it's the same, it's all K copper for an example. Or it could be your store could be all L copper for example, depending on, on the size of the pipe. And I got a few different size here. So, type K you can get a up to about two and five eights.
• 0:24
  Andrew: I don't know if everybody knows exactly what pressures, roughly what we're looking at as far as the high side. 'cause you say stainless steel or copper infused iron. But what does that, I guess, what does that, what pressures are we even talking about here?
• 0:25
  So that would be the max it would ever go before your high pressure would switch out. But usually your system's running lower than that. So that all depends on the, so like I'm in Las Vegas right now, today, it's gonna get up to say 20 Celsius, 68 degrees Fahrenheit. We're not gonna be running even close to these pressures.
• 0:26
  Trevor: Yeah, exactly. And the next thing is that just understanding that, that pressure, but most of the time, like in Canada right now, our systems will be running at 700 PSI. Hold back, like we would be holding, holding the pressure back because it's just so cold out.
• 0:27
  Andrew: So this, this, this is the, just to clarify, this is after the HPV, we go do a flash tank or the receiver kind of type thing, and then that feeds all the liquid out to the cases.
• 0:28
  You can get a rack that is all pipe like this and it's usually you. Like US manufacturers sending into to Canada, like Canadian manufacturers issue most it was all stainless steel. I see some of 'em now starting to shift. Starting to shift from doing everything in stainless steel and now having a high pressure copper, but the prices of copper starting to change as well.
• 0:29
  Because in Canada has to be 3.8 times the burst pressure for field piping. But for some reason, if you're a UL manufacturer, you can ul it to the certain pressure and, and you're okay. So I'm honestly, I'm still trying to figure that out. Interesting. Eric. Eric, my man. How you doing, brother?
• 0:30
  Yes, end of range. I've seen someone a little bit lower, a little bit higher, but the higher we go, the closer we get to the flash tank, the lower we go on the suction line, the lower that is for the low temp discharge. And then when we get to the low temp systems, you could be down to 180 PSI.
• 0:31
  So, so that's the different ranges that you would, you would see, which is, which is important to understand the different pressures in the system. And so I didn't dive that deep into that in the, in the, this training session while I was there. But, so that was the, the next step, right? So what's the piping and then talking about the different pressure of the piping.
• 0:32
  And so you just go in and you pull off a pipe and if it's one-on-one, you just go and put it, but you have to be trained on this stuff. So, but not only the pipe has to be high pressure copper, so do the fittings, which is super, super burn and,
• 0:33
  Trevor: So, yeah. Yeah. And I know, I know. Moving, moving this pipe. So that's one tip. If you're installer out there, that this pipe is gonna be a lot heavy. You'll pick it up if you're used to picking up, standard K or L this high pressure copper is gonna be a lot heavier. But the big thing is, is the fittings
• 0:34
  Erik: We have to, we have to, this, this guy here is rated 140 bar, what's that? I just had my calculator here before
• 0:35
  Trevor: yeah. So the next step, after we went in and I talked about the, the, the prep, the installation prep, now we're getting into what do we need to do on a job site for a CO2? So first step into construction, we gotta build hangers, we gotta get saddles, we gotta do this, right? Like, I've seen times where there was.
• 0:36
  You got, you want to do it right. And where you're placing it. 'cause the next step is like, where's the supports? Like, this is so, so important. We can't just say every every 30 feet or every 10 meters, we put a support and it's a five, eight pipe. Like they would just. It would just sag, and you'd get a, a trap there, so you gotta follow codes, right? And this is a ashray guide from 1967. It doesn't change, that, that piping now with Kate, with the high pressure copper, it's stronger. So you probably need, maybe you can increase these supports, but I would say stick with
• 0:37
  And here's just an example, half an inch per 10 feet. Some people say quarter inch, some people say one inch per, depending on your span, it doesn't really matter. You just wanna make sure you're always sloping back to the compressor and you have a good slope. Because if you don't, then you're gonna have issues with oil return.
• 0:38
  You're gonna get carbon at that pipes. We don't want that. If you were doing that before in the past, because I've even done it, you don't want to do this. So I was talking with the, the students and the people in the, in this training session about. The, the value of using nitrogen or using er gas to make sure your pipe is clean when you're welding.
• 0:39
  I'm like, why are we not putting all these bolts out? Well, it takes. Too long. We got to hurry up. But I've seen issues where on the bottom of the coil right here, we'd have some infiltration and it would freeze up right here because we didn't install it properly. The cases wasn't jammed together enough.
• 0:40
  Trevor: But you can see there's how many bolts in this one? Like on this picture, we got seven and then we got nine bolts, and so I know for sure there's a lot out there that are not putting nine. Oh, we put this together. I've been doing this for years. We, we only need five. You know what I mean?
• 0:41
  Like when you hang a coil, you're gonna have to hang at the, the same distance as all airflow. And how you're not gonna hang a CO2 coil any differently than you would do on something that you're working on today. So if it's a 4, 4, 8, 4, 4, 9 system, the next thing is having the proper traps. Do you need an infer, a trap?
• 0:42
  Erik: No, no. Just for the siphon here. The siphons here I think is really, really important, especially on CO2 systems because we have different flow rates of the, of the fluid fluids coming in. The oil return is, is gonna have a different velocity.
• 0:43
  Erik: And acid fills up. You get less and less and less space for the gas to come through, and then when you, when you have the same mass, have to be transported from A to B. In a smaller area, then the velocity of the gas arises. That's Ventura's principle.
• 0:44
  Trevor: And 'cause I know I've definitely piped some of these wrong in the day, in my day because and then I learned about how to do it because I've seen it in different, man, I've been looking this up too. I've been reading all the manufacturers in North America on installation and they tell people to do it differently.
• 0:45
  Trevor: And, but I don't know, like I gotta dive in deeper because these are big manufacturers and they're saying to do it differently. So I don't know. How do you I've
• 0:46
  You'd have a trap on the bottom. But we, I wouldn't put an inverted trap on the top. Yeah. And, and then the thing is, is then you have these bushings. So the people that are watching this on the. YouTube video. So you could have a bushing like that and this slopes back this way, the oil would be in there like that.
• 0:47
  Erik: yeah. I only have a few feet then you I, I would make it anyways, but yeah. In case you don't have the, I don't, in case you don't have the height for it in the, in the, over the ceiling or whatever. Yeah, it could work. You could also, you can make it, you can make it the cheap version the, the quick and dirty version where you, where you have your, where you have your, your, your, your, your, your main line in the top here.
• 0:48
  Even in HFC you should have had insulation on everything. But I've seen so many times there was no insulation. Do you wanna talk about that, Andrew?
• 0:49
  Erik: Yeah, it makes it quite easy to us to figure around how, how is everything put together. We use them internally on the racks also, and I, I do know our colleagues in, in Con Geo Georgia. They also do what we have markings on, on different temperature groups is, is a, a, it's a hot gas coming in. It is liquid.
• 0:50
  Every valve is labeled versus, and there's less, though, in industrial there's usually less 'cause it's bigger, they're bigger valves. But I've had a, I train a lot of guys from industrial and CO2 and they're like, Trevor, it's just so difficult. 'cause I got a site here and they're showing me picture and there's no arrows.
• 0:51
  Okay, now we will pressure test different sections, so you might be doing the high pressure side at a different time than when you're doing certain cases, but you gotta remember that these are different here in North America anyway. Different pressure sections. Okay? You can't just go and I'm gonna pressure test everything to 2000 PSI or 130 barrel, because the low side can't handle that pressure.
• 0:52
  Trevor: Yeah. Yeah. So a lot of technicians, and I've hear different people and I'm reading in different manuals. It doesn't say that. It says it gives a specific number to pressure test. And when I look at that number, it says, well, our design running condition's only 1400 psi, so you only have to pressure test the 1500 psi.
• 0:53
  PRV so it doesn't go off. And then they would pressure to test that 10%. So like 500 or five 20. Is that similar to the way you guys do it, Eric?
• 0:54
  The cases coming, the store owners are on us. And this is one of the tough parts about supermarket industry. Now we're being pushed real hard and I was trying to get that message out is that we need to help the tech contractors out there. We they need more time because I'm seeing a lot of mistakes happen because the, they're being pushed real hard.
• 0:55
  Quite a bit of time. It takes a, a long time to do this, and you have to, you have to be really, really thorough with all this stuff because that's a basic of the whole system getting up, running correctly. So yeah, you can't do it. And if, if your store manager is coming as say we, we have to be, we, you'd only have one hour to do this.
• 0:56
  Like if you break the law, like you can get fined, you can get charged. And that's, it's anywhere
• 0:57
  Trevor: So next thing I was trying to say, so after you do all that stuff, you do your pressure test, we gotta get into that triple evacuation. We gotta really get a deep, deep we gotta get all that moisture out, here's a couple examples, 11 microns. This here is an industrial system, four inch pipe, and I mean thousands of feet. You know what I mean? Down to 11 m did it take a week? Yeah. They said it took a week. You got a 25 horsepower pump. Yes. You got, you gotta, but he had time as well to, to get it down. And here's another one here and tour, you gotta get that deep, deep back and you always put the, the micron gauge the furthest point away if possible. And then you gotta do a DK test, right? You just shut off the system and you just see how. Hyatt rises up to make sure you don't have a leak. And so basically I, this is kind of the install prep that I did.
• 0:58
  So, so, so it was a lot. In an hour that I talked to them, but a lot of people came up afterwards after their presentation and be like, oh man, that I, I took a lot away. And they were like real happy about it. There was a lot of technicians who took our CO2 courses that were there, which was pretty cool to see.
• 0:59
  And when you do know all these different pieces, you're a better technician. My, the best, some of the best technicians I know they've done install, they've done startup, they've done service, they've done controls. You know what I mean? They've, and then now they know the engineering side of it. And this is really what I talk, we talk about, Andrew, I talk so much about engineering design and the CO2 courses is because when you know that stuff, you know how everything works.
• 1:00
  Trevor: Awesome. Yeah, no, look forward to you guys seeing you at the next Meetup. It'll be the same time next week. Thursday at 9:00 AM Eastern. I'm looking forward to chatting with you all. Thank you guys so much.