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Straumann® ProTalk with Dr. Irena Sailer (video version) · Straumann® ProTalk

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I think what we have to do is, switch our minds away from this
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dentistry that we started with.
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At least I started with this long lasting perfection that is in the
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clinical situation for 30, 35 years.
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What have been some of the big decisions and defining moments where you said,
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look this changed almost everything.
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Well, the moment when I decided I would like to go and visit this
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department of Peter, Schärer, when I was looking at this scripts in
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Horst Dieterich's office and when I had the opportunity to go and visit.
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And when I saw what they were doing and how they were doing
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it, that's the moment when I knew this is what I'd like to learn.
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Welcome to ProTalk.
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Welcome to the Pulse of Dentistry.
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Welcome to this episode of our podcast today, together with my co-host George.
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It's my pleasure to welcome professor Dr. Irena Sailer to Basel, we record
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here directly from the headquarter.
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Welcome, Irena.
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Great to have you.
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Thank you
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very much.
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Thank you for having me.
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I'm pleased and honored to do this today with the two of you.
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It's our pleasure to have you, Irena.
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Really.
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So Irena, I think you hardly need any introduction.
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You studied and graduated from the University of Tubingen.
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Here we have something in common.
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We have the same university that we graduated from.
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Then at one point you moved over.
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I think one of your big steps was you moved over to Zurich to C. Hämmerles
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department for fixed and removable Prosthodontics where you had an associate
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professorship and then you did a big step.
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You took over very prestigious department from Professor Urs Belser in Geneva
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that you are still leading today, this division in the University of Geneva for
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fixed prosthodontics and biomaterials.
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Is it that you are still leading today?
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So I think this is some of your key stages of your career, but there's
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much more to you, so, for the people that don't know you, how would you
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introduce yourself in one minute?
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Irena.
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Well, I have to say that you've covered mostly the topics or mostly the points
2:08
that I would've covered as well.
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But I have to say that you missed one important point because the reason why
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after graduation in 97, I decided to go to Switzerland is because I learned
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from a mentor of mine around Stuttgart Horst Dieterich's that there is this
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famous department for fixed and removable prosthodontics at the University of Zurich
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with one star in aesthetic dentistry in reconstructive dentistry, which was Peter
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Schärer, and Horse had done courses by the Schärer team, the St. Moritz courses,
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and he gave me the script to look at while I was assisting in his practice.
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And I thought, this is what I would like to learn.
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And I somehow felt that this could be something that I would really like to
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learn and where I would like to go, but it was so difficult to get in was 97.
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I graduated 98.
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That was a time when it was almost impossible as a foreigner
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to get into such departments, which were so highly recognized.
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So I started applying as a voluntary assistant.
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And went to Zurich two or three times, was invited by Peter Schärer to
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visit his department and I was shown around and I knew immediately this
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is what I would really like to learn.
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And while applying, I was going through a shower between hot and cold water,
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because once I showed up in Zurich Peter Schärer was very positive.
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It was all nice.
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All good?
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Yes.
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Said.
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No problem.
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And then a couple of months later, maybe three months later, when I
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didn't hear back from him, I contacted him again, and then it was no way
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you can get in no position at all.
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So I learned through these showers that I would have to
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somehow get into the University of Zurich at least to be around.
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So that maybe he would notice that he could not get rid of me.
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So I also learned while visiting this university, that at the oral surgical
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department, they were always happy to have voluntary assistance, so coworkers,
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a hundred percent without any salaries.
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And then I applied in oral surgery.
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And I got in 98 and I did one year of postgraduate studies in oral surgery
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with Jan E. Ola and Hermann Sailer at that time, which has the same
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surname as I do, but we're not related.
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Not related, no.
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And, after this year of oral surgery, I could get into Peter Schärer's department
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of Fixed and removable Prosthodontics and Material Sciences as voluntary assistant.
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And then one and a half years later when he retired, Christoph Hämmerle
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came, and by then some of the faculty left and post-grad students became.
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Faculty and post grad paid positions got vacant and I was happy and very lucky
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to get one of those so I could stay on.
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And it was really an amazing time for all of us because it was the
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combination of this high precision aesthetics and perfection that was
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shadows, environment, or universe.
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Together with the research pad, Christoph Hämmerle brought with him, and then we
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could really evolve from there together.
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And it was fantastic.
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It was a time when Ron Jung became faculty, for example, and a number of
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other people that you know very well were together in this team and we could really
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work together and build it together.
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It was fantastic time.
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A very strong team that actually has a lot of I would say successful.
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Important people in dentistry today.
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So yeah,
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indeed it shadow's department already had them, it was, I think it, it
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is little bit the environment of this university that encourages.
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Talents to get there and to move on from there to grow.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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There's no doubt Peter Schärer and his scholar has had a big
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impact beyond Zurich, right?
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There are a lot of people that went to other universities,
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took over important departments.
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Yes.
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There, so would you say that Christoph and Peter Schärer, that they've been your
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most important mentors in your career?
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Or is there anyone else that you would mention?
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Well, at the academic level in the beginnings, definitely without Peter
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Schärer, I would've not come to Switzerland and I would've not learned the
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beauty of prosthodontics and the beauty of aesthetics and fixed restorative work.
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And I would've not learned maybe doing dentistry on this level.
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And without Christoph, I would've not learned doing research on
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that level because he was really bringing up a very, high preciseness.
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And structured approach to research and the combination of both was really
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a fantastic combination of two worlds.
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But I would also say that during the pathway here in Switzerland.
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I've also met, of course, Klaus Lang.
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And I think Klaus Lang is a wonderful personality who at his high age today
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is still full of passion and energy.
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And that's something that I very much admire and that's also a very
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structured approach to research, but also very empathic way of
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teaching, which I really liked a lot.
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So I would consider Klaus definitely a mentor.
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And then of course Daniel Buser, who was always I would say surrounding
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us in the ITI environment.
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Specifically, which Christoph opened us to open to us when he came to Zurich.
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So also very, I would say for me, impress impressive personality with a lot of,
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well, power, vision, knowledge, but also personal, I would say empathy and heart.
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How was it looking back to being able to take over from Urs Belser?
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I imagine that was a big honor.
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Intimidating, I have to say, no.
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It was a time when I applied for the professorship because it was the first
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one that got vacant in Switzerland, and I felt myself that, I had the luck
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to get into the university in Zurich.
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I had the luck to be able to stay on at the University of Zurich.
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I could do an academic career at the University of Zurich,
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and I became Priva in 2010.
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And at that point, for me, it was clear that I would really like to evolve
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further and the position of Urs Belser was opened and I was a little bit scared
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about the French, I have to admit, because French I learned in school.
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Until the ature, which is seven years of French.
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But on the other hand, it was a big challenge and it was also
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a department, which was exactly representing what I had been doing.
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Fixed prosthodontics and biomaterials.
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And I applied for it.
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It was the first application and without really, being well
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prepared for what will happen.
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And then when I got the offer, of course had to take it and it was fantastic.
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And when I moved to Geneva in 2013, I was very nervous more about the French
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than about being successor of Urs Belser.
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But when I got there, I learned that both are big challenges.
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And you know that all eyes are on you now to see how are you going to do it?
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How we do it.
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Yes.
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How quickly will you learn?
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Yes.
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Adapt and yeah.
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Yes, the French can be.
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Yeah, it can be challenging, I have
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to say.
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It can be challenging, but the good thing is that you don't know about this.
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When you step into this direction, you have to go and then you have
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to get where you want to be.
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That's maybe also good learning that, one, when you step into a challenge,
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you don't know all about the detailed challenges that you will have to face.
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Right.
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And
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luckily lucky otherwise you may not do it.
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Exactly.
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Yes.
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So, sometimes it's good to jump into cold water.
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Yes.
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Probably.
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Yeah.
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Yes.
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If you look back in, let's say your career, you mentioned already it's
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not, when not everything went linear, it's, it took you quite some effort
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to get the position in Zurich.
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What have been some of the big decisions and defining moments where you said,
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look this changed almost everything.
9:20
Well, the moment when I decided I would like to go and visit this
9:23
department of Peter Schärer's when I was looking at these scripts in
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Horst Dieterich's office, and when I had the opportunity to go and visit.
9:32
And when I saw what they were doing and how they were doing
9:34
it, that's the moment when I knew this is what I'd like to learn.
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And that was a big moment because it was of course, change of countries.
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New university surrounding, I left my family behind.
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I left my partner behind.
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It was not far away, but it was still different.
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And on the other hand, it was also exciting.
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I moved into a little room in the Vesterheim, just yes facing the
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University of Zurich Dental School.
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I had maybe 10 square meters.
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I had no own shower, no own kitchen.
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Everything was mutual and it was like an adventure.
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It was fantastic.
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So I think for the rest of the next 40 minutes, we will speak about your
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passion, which is I think research in prosthodontics aesthetic dentistry
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and material science as well.
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We'll speak about digital dentistry, I'm sure, and we will also speak
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about education at the end, towards the end of the podcast.
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I think it's a good moment to move into.
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The field of material.
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Important material.
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Exactly.
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So Irena, you're very well known for material research
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in dental material research.
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And maybe let's go back a little bit.
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You explained how you developed your passion and also how you choose your path.
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But can you explain a bit more what fascinates you on
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material science for dental?
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Well, it was, again, I have to go back to Peter Schärer's time because when he
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retired, he had just finalized a very, I would say, crucial development together
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with the Federal Technical Institute in Zurich, the development of wide stage.
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Processing and then centering to full density of zirconia.
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This was a prototype invention that they made direct ceramic machining process,
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DCM process, which allowed us to do zirconia restorations faster and more
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efficient than milling it in the fully.
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Densely centered stage.
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And they had started a study at three unit bridges in the
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posterior two supported segments.
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And when she retired, this study was ongoing.
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And as Christoph Hämmerle brought a huge implantology background with him,
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nobody was really taking care of this.
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So I got the opportunity by Peter Schärer to take on the zirconia pathway.
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And at that time it was, I would say it was a 50 50.
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I would say chance to be successful or to fail completely.
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And it was a very successful development in the end with a
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lot of problems that we face.
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But it brought me into digital dentistry at the early stages
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already, because you needed cat cam procedures to process these materials.
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And that's how I got into the whole material science and ceramics and
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cat cam and digital dentistry field.
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And zirconia could have gone south.
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But it was luckily at least from a ceramic point of view as a framework
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material, very good framework material.
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We had a lot of research to be done around it, which allowed me to
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do the private docent in the end.
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So we had to develop cementation pathways.
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We had to.
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Evolved the preparation of teeth for cat cam procedures.
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All of this was new at that time.
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Today it's very logical and clear, but at that time,
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always new.
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Yeah,
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always new.
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And then we had to learn how to adhesively cement C cornea because it was a
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different type of ceramic than the others.
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And then we had to also face problems with the veneering ceramics and
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the chippings and the problems that came from the clinics and material
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scientists were developing heart.
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On new technologies, how to veneer zirconia in a, I would
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say more predictable way.
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And it failed.
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It was like 10, 11, 12 years of research in material scientific laboratories
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and none of the parameters that were changed helped reduce the chipping rates.
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And at that time it was really, zirconia was about to go south.
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Until the moment when the further developments of the three iria
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stabilized zirconia material into the more cubic forms, more translucent
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forms came up, and then we could do monolithic restoration so it came back.
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Yeah.
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We can also sing a song in terms of ceramic material development.
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It's so complicated and it takes so much time also to, to then
13:40
find, it's a bit of alchemy.
13:42
So I have to say, but obviously, it, it had a big impact also
13:45
on restorative dentistry.
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And I would say today, it has become almost common knowledge that, the things
13:51
that 20 years ago they were super new.
13:54
Now when I look at dentists today, and if they get into implantology, it can be
13:58
very challenging to understand all the materials that are at their disposition.
14:03
Are there some very simple rules that you would where to look for
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information and maybe some basic rules on how to not make the big mistakes?
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Huh, that's a very good question.
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I have to say it's very complex today At agreed.
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But I think if you break down dental ceramics, you in
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principle have two main groups.
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One is the glass ceramics and the other is oxide ceramics.
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But of the oxide ceramics, it's zirconia.
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And I think more and more the zirconia is developing a little
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bit into a universal restorative material, which it can become one day.
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Glass ceramics.
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You have very nice felt pad, beautiful ceramics.
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They're barely used for veneers, maybe in very highly aesthetic asic
14:45
Most of it is lithium dilate today.
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Everything that can be machined is I would say, applicable.
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And then comes the big group of hybrid materials and resins, and that's,
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I think, something, but today still knowledge is scars and long term
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outcomes are still missing to be really.
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Able to recommend different materials, but it's definitely the
15:06
direction also where it will go to.
15:07
Because these hybrid materials, they combine the best of world.
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Both world worlds.
15:12
Yeah.
15:12
The best of resins.
15:13
The best of ceramics.
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They can be milled, they don't need centering.
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So they're easier, they're faster, and they're less expensive.
15:20
What are some of the biggest misconceptions that you see
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when you know you teach a lot?
15:25
You also have research activities ongoing, but what are the biggest
15:28
misconceptions when it comes to material?
15:30
So dental materials that are still around that you would
15:32
actually like to eradicate a bit.
15:34
Well, I think the biggest mis misconception today is that
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zirconia is not equal to zirconia.
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Because the different new types are not the same as the one that
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we used to elaborate in 20 years ago as a framework material.
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So clinicians have to be very knowledgeable.
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About the properties of these different zirconia, they have to have a strong
15:54
interaction with the laboratories.
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In the best case, have decision trees on selection of materials for the
16:00
respective case and indication to be sure that they receive the right thing.
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And finally, I think that clinicians also have to be in charge of what the
16:11
patient will receive in the end, so not delegate everything to the laboratory.
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I think this is also misconception that can happen today, is that as
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clinician, if we're not knowledgeable enough that we delegate, oh, the
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lab can do this.
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Exactly.
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We delegate the selection to the laboratories, which is fantastic if the
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lab technician is knowledgeable as well.
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But the, I think the safest way is to define together which indication,
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which material and then to be safe.
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And that's maybe a very interesting topic as well, which we will talk
16:38
talk a bit later, how to decide which material fits which patient.
16:41
But now I would like to touch also on some of the new materials development that are
16:46
happening, which are very fascinating.
16:47
And this is particularly also additive manufacturing.
16:50
So resins, there is a lot of resins.
16:52
So matrix based ceramic resins that actually use ceramic particles.
16:56
Whiskers, platelets to reinforce the material.
16:59
So it's not really a ceramic, but it has some properties.
17:02
Maybe as you said before, best of both worlds.
17:06
Will we have a final restoration made out of printed material?
17:09
What?
17:09
What do you think?
17:10
I think at some point, yes, definitely, and I think the developments are going
17:14
into the direction, whether it'll be a matrix ceramic or a real ceramic, or.
17:20
Some new type of material that yet has to be invented.
17:23
I don't know, but definitely yes, because I think that in 3D printing,
17:26
you eliminate a lot of the hurdles that you have with subtractive manufacturing.
17:31
And in the best case, you can even take the color of the tooth, the
17:35
shade of the tooth, the optical properties also into consideration
17:38
into 3D, rebuilding the tooth.
17:40
That would be a dream.
17:41
Yes.
17:41
So to have a multicolor printing of, definitely
17:44
multicolor multiple optical properties, everything printed.
17:48
A lot of I would say developments ongoing there.
17:50
And we're also very curious on how this will develop with with
17:53
chair set printing as well.
17:54
So it, it becomes much more feasible that you can actually print at least smaller,
17:59
I would say, frameworks, crowns breaches chair site not full large right now.
18:02
But let's see how the development goes here.
18:04
Another, I would say topic and trend that we're seeing, and that would be very
18:08
interesting to hear your opinion on is.
18:11
A lot of things.
18:11
They try to simplify workflows and also cut some costs with reducing materials.
18:17
And there is more and more also ceramic frameworks put directly to multi-unit bots
18:23
without actually, cementing any coping into the ceramic material that has a high.
18:30
I would say restriction in terms of precision.
18:32
So if you don't, if you're not milling precisely, then you
18:35
will not have a passive fit.
18:36
Doesn't go well.
18:37
But do you see this as a trend that you would support or would you still
18:42
recommend cautious cautiousness?
18:44
Well, I think if it's a well developed workflow and it's an
18:47
original to original workflow and the accuracy and precision has been.
18:51
Developed to a level that the manufacturers can give the
18:54
guarantee for a good development.
18:56
Then I think this can work.
18:58
Definitely ceramics directly to metal abutments works if the fit is going.
19:03
If the fit is well established and if there is no movements, as soon as
19:07
there are movements, the ceramics, the harder materials can wear down the
19:11
softer materials, which in principle, in the worst case, if it's a really
19:15
direct connection to the implant, can reduce, well, can even destroy the
19:20
implant if it's internally connected.
19:22
So the precision is, I think, a key parameter.
19:25
Passive fit is a key parameter and the more units the restoration has.
19:31
The more difficult it is to achieve more complex.
19:33
Yeah.
19:33
Yeah.
19:34
How do you see extending on this, how do you see cat camm departments, ceramic
19:37
cche departments directly into implants?
19:40
It has been available and now it has gone down as a, there is basically a backlash.
19:45
Do you see it coming back?
19:47
Is it a possibility?
19:48
Would you like it also from a biological perspective, or would you
19:51
like to stick a lot with T bases?
19:53
Well, I think the tase research so far doesn't show big biologic problems.
19:58
So that it doesn't seem to be a major issue, that there is a little cement
20:02
gap somewhere near the bone level.
20:04
That's at the intermediate I would say observation that we can make,
20:08
I think directly into implant connected ceramic abutments were.
20:14
Part of our research, we've done research for 15 years about customized
20:18
abutments, how to best customize them, how to best develop the emergence
20:21
profile, which material selection in which indication, the color
20:25
influence on the mucosal tissues.
20:28
I think that's a very well documented process, which worked very well,
20:33
but it's of course a little bit more cost ex cost intensive, and then.
20:37
With the internal connection implant types that were became, I think mostly
20:42
in the last 15 years, very widely used.
20:45
The precision coming back became very crucial.
20:48
So copycat abutments destroyed a little bit.
20:51
The reputation.
20:52
I think of the ceramic internally connected abutments because
20:55
fractures occurred where of the titanium internal connection of.
20:59
Occurred and this was reported, and of course clinicians got concerned
21:03
and the metallic internal connection to a metallic implant is probably the
21:07
best that you can have a ceramic to.
21:10
An implant can also work if the fit is really accurate.
21:13
Now coming back a bit to material selection for specific patients.
21:16
So there, there are some activities where.
21:20
Companies try to enter the market to actually measure biting forces
21:24
chewing behavior, maybe even detect proxies before the pros, orthodontist
21:29
and the lab together have to decide for a material selection.
21:32
Do you see this as something useful?
21:34
Is it something that you're also doing?
21:36
Maybe you heard about self sense.
21:38
Some of these devices actually measure biting forces before
21:41
you take a material selection.
21:42
I think that makes a lot of sense.
21:44
And thinking of the digital workflow and the virtual patient, I think jaw
21:47
tracking becomes a very important part.
21:50
Which.
21:51
In my, I would say dream would allow us to design the perfect restoration
21:55
for the patient with the perfect occlusal scheme and to have no
21:58
technical problems in the future.
21:59
So that would be the dream.
22:00
That's the dream, yeah.
22:01
But I think the more information we can gather during the process
22:03
with the digital tools, the better.
22:05
And to measure biting forces is definitely a parameter which material to select.
22:10
And I think more research in Bruxing patients will be needed as well,
22:13
because this is really an area which for us is a little bit the gray zone
22:17
in each study that is published.
22:19
PRUs, I'm mostly excluded.
22:21
So when somebody asks us as clinicians, what material would you recommend?
22:25
Then we of course think of where, okay, then you have the different
22:28
wear patterns of the materials and high strength ceramics, like
22:32
zirconia, they wear very little.
22:35
Reins.
22:35
They wear a lot.
22:37
And the truth is probably somewhere in between.
22:39
Because also thinking of, yeah, anthropological studies, you
22:43
would see that teeth was, were worn down in our ancestors.
22:46
So probably the TMJ operators is made for this
22:49
is made for this.
22:49
Yeah.
22:50
And probably today with this non wear materials that are so hard.
22:53
We may experience problems in the future.
22:55
We don't know this.
22:55
So this part of, I would say investigation and observation and
22:59
development is very important.
23:00
Maybe linking this also to your editorial activities.
23:03
So you, you see a lot of upcoming publications.
23:06
Is there any trend that you could share with us that you see in terms
23:10
of number of publications that are going up interesting fields in in,
23:14
in that area which are developing?
23:17
Well, I think that the bus terms are 3D printing and ai.
23:21
I think this is where most of the research activities are focusing on today.
23:27
How do you see the area of cat ai?
23:29
Is that something that is very useful and you're already using today?
23:33
Is it for you upcoming and becoming widespread?
23:35
It's not widespread.
23:36
I think it's upcoming and I think that many CAT systems are coming
23:40
up with AI designed restorations.
23:42
Which can be, I think, efficient and faster.
23:45
I think the workflows still have to be elaborated.
23:48
And to fully be investigated and improved.
23:50
So right now they're not a hundred percent intuitive as I think AI should be because
23:56
if you have an AI design tool and you take an optical impression, you don't
23:59
want to design the margin line yourself.
24:01
Exactly.
24:02
Exactly.
24:02
You want the software to do this needs to be there.
24:03
Exactly.
24:04
It needs to be, that needs to be perfect because.
24:07
You have all the information inside, but so far it's not there.
24:11
But it's getting there.
24:12
And I think this is also such a rapidly evolving field that it's
24:15
super fascinating.
24:16
There is so much happening in this in this area and I believe it's, it will make
24:20
also chairside workflows so much more.
24:22
Easy and yes.
24:23
And also workable so that the patients can remain well actually AI designs and
24:28
then you maybe choose a print or mill
24:29
Exactly.
24:30
Restoration.
24:30
Exactly.
24:30
And I think what we have to do is switch our minds away from this
24:34
dentistry that we started with.
24:36
At least I started with this long lasting perfection that is.
24:40
In the clinical situation for 30, 35 years, and if after 35 years there's
24:44
a little chipping, the patient is disappointed and the clinician as well.
24:47
I think these times are gone.
24:49
Yeah.
24:49
I think today we have to focus a little bit on being more efficient,
24:52
being less expensive, and then as we have digital files, we can reproduce
24:57
exactly what failed much easier.
24:58
And I think this is a shift in the mindset.
25:01
Which reminds me a little bit of the shift of having music on long plays and music.
25:05
On and on.
25:06
Spotify.
25:07
Yeah, on Spotify's.
25:07
Exactly.
25:08
If you listen to long play today, the room is full of music.
25:11
If you put the same MP four music, it's not the same.
25:15
It's not, it's flat, but we still like it.
25:17
And I think it'll happen with dentistry as well.
25:19
Building on this where do you see restorative and aesthetic industry
25:22
going in 10 years from now?
25:24
Well, I think that we will have digital tools that will allow us to
25:28
intuitively analyze the patient, get propositions for treatments, and have
25:33
the production already right next door to maybe be able to analyze the patient
25:42
and produce and do the intervention.
25:45
Everything is produced for the be much less, I would say,
25:50
dependent on multiple visits and.
25:53
Multiple examinations and so on.
25:56
No I had one question in my mind.
25:59
I was wondering for Zurich and now also for Geneva, how important is for
26:02
you this, ecosystem in Switzerland and also in on the German border, in
26:08
terms of material development for you, which is, companies like, not only
26:11
Strongman, but Vita, is this helpful for you in, in, in this environment?
26:16
Do you benefit me?
26:17
Oh,
26:17
absolutely.
26:18
Absolutely.
26:18
I think that if you look into the, I would say the main.
26:23
Mindsets coming from Switzerland.
26:26
Those are the ones that are.
26:28
Mostly building dentistry.
26:30
Many of the big names came from this environment.
26:32
So I think that the ecosystem here is very enriching.
26:35
It offers a lot of potential and possibilities, and that's fascinating.
26:39
And on the one hand side, you have the material developers, and then you have
26:42
the Federal Technical Institute in Zurich, you have the Sister Institute in
26:46
Lausanne with a lot of brilliant minds.
26:48
We have campus biotech in Geneva, so there is a lot of wonderful
26:53
international minds that come together and that enrich themselves.
26:57
Oh,
26:58
so let's switch gears a bit towards education.
27:01
Irena, I think the question I would like to start with, I saw you on stage
27:05
quite often over the last 20 years, and I've always enjoyed seeing you on stage
27:10
and found it always very inspiring.
27:12
Thank you.
27:12
Inspiring.
27:13
You're a great presenter.
27:14
What is your secret to success?
27:18
I have to say I'm never really preparing a lecture.
27:21
I have not once.
27:22
Okay.
27:23
You are not.
27:23
I have not once given a lecture to myself to train it.
27:27
I'm intimidated by that, so I'm a little bit a spontaneous person.
27:31
Sometimes it goes well, and sometimes it goes a little bit less
27:35
well than I would've liked it to.
27:37
But in principle, I'm.
27:39
I have the story, I'm building the story.
27:41
When I prepare the slides, I know what I want to say, and then it's a little
27:44
bit of the yeah, shape of the day.
27:46
If it goes very well, well or not that well.
27:49
And then in principle, for me, it's like when you read the
27:52
book chapters, you tell a story.
27:54
Of something that I'm trying to build up in a way that it's intriguing the
27:57
people to then come with the information.
28:01
So the introduction should be a little bit, the crescendo
28:03
and then the information.
28:05
And then I think it's very important to be clinically relevant, to be based like
28:10
bound to clinics so that clinicians can really relate on what you're saying.
28:14
And even when I came to Geneva, I'm really doing my best to
28:17
treat patients as much as I can.
28:19
'cause I think it's very difficult to be.
28:21
On top of what you're trying to teach others, if you're not
28:25
at least theoretical, if you're not experiencing it yourself.
28:28
And and then I think then yeah, as once again, a good summary of a
28:33
lecture full of content is important.
28:36
And I know in the past, in the beginnings.
28:38
That my lectures were too full of content, so I learned over the
28:42
years to reduce it a little bit.
28:44
Because it's too much information, although I think it's very important,
28:47
it's too much information for the one who is sitting in the audience and
28:50
listening, and I'm trying to modify this.
28:52
This is something that's a learning curve.
28:54
And then also.
28:55
Maybe with the years you get a little bit more experience, you're
28:58
a little bit less stressed and you're a little bit more relaxed.
29:02
Relaxed on the stage, which also helps.
29:04
Yeah.
29:04
Yes.
29:05
Oh, I like the fact that usually people, that they take away very practical things
29:09
also for their day-to-day business, which is I think very important.
29:12
Of course, based on research, but it's very, tangible usually
29:16
that's a bit my impression.
29:17
So people can really take something and implement Monday morning.
29:20
No which is very helpful.
29:22
There's one organization that you're very active in that I would like to
29:25
speak about, which is the European academy for Aesthetic Dentistry.
29:29
A very prestigious organization.
29:31
I think you cannot just sign up for it.
29:34
There is a process to get into it.
29:36
And you've been the, I think, past president.
29:39
Yeah, since.
29:40
Three weeks.
29:40
I'm past president.
29:41
Past president, and there was a big big Congress in Split that
29:44
you played an important role in.
29:46
So tell us more about this organization.
29:47
What is this organization about?
29:49
And what can young clinicians learn from it?
29:51
It's funny that you've mentioning the EAED because this year, for
29:55
the first time, Straumann was part of the I would say supporters of
30:00
the meeting and of the academy.
30:02
And it's an academy.
30:03
It was founded 86 in Geneva.
30:05
Actually, and Peter Schärer was one of the first ones be involved in this.
30:09
So it, this is where it all started.
30:12
And all of his, I would say key talents were in this academy.
30:17
So Carlo Marinello, Jörg Strub, Gründler, all of these today, big
30:23
names, were really building this academy, what it is today, and it is
30:27
an, it is a little bit a prestige club.
30:30
It was much more like this than it is today because I think today's
30:33
times are not asking for this.
30:36
Today we're more open, we're more a little bit sharing and flexible.
30:39
But still, it's still the aim of having a family feeling within
30:43
a group of excellent clinicians.
30:46
And I have to say the EAD is a club of excellent clinicians
30:49
worldwide in different disciplines around aesthetic dentistry.
30:52
This is restorative reconstructive, it's implant dentistry, it's periodontology
30:56
and it's combining all of them together.
30:58
And Giovanni Zucchelli is part of this group, Markus Hürzeler and Otto Zuhr.
31:03
So just to mention a couple of names that I think the audience may know.
31:08
And it's it's still, you're very close.
31:10
It's a very.
31:10
Close interaction between the active members and they exchange a lot of
31:14
knowledge in a very honest way, and that's a fantastic way of growing.
31:18
And yeah.
31:19
But this Congress, is this an open format that everybody can attend the Congress?
31:23
Well, you have a Congress each year it's the spring meeting, and
31:26
during a presidency, which is a two year term, we have one open meeting
31:30
where everybody can assign to.
31:32
And one rather close meeting where you have to have.
31:36
An invitation by an affiliate or an active member to get into the Congress if you're
31:41
not already associated to the academy.
31:44
And then they have twice per year now close meeting where
31:47
only the active members meet.
31:50
And then thematic are discussed and lectures are invited,
31:54
and reviews are published.
31:57
Proceedings are published on this.
31:59
I think for us, for a long time, looking back maybe 20 years, implant industry
32:03
has been a lot focused functionally.
32:06
Yeah.
32:06
And I think aesthetics became much more important over the last 10 to 50 years.
32:10
Also for us as a company.
32:11
That's why probably also we get more close to organizations like the
32:15
European Academy for Aesthetic Industry.
32:17
It's the mindset of the population today.
32:20
Everything is about looks and posts and selfies, and so aesthetics is much more
32:25
important than it was in the past, of course, and function has gotten forgotten,
32:30
but it's coming back now because we see that there is, without neological
32:35
knowledge, more problems with the restorative materials that we're using.
32:39
And ceramics are very, a very good example for this.
32:42
And it's also reflected I'd say by the demands of the patients.
32:46
Yes.
32:46
The patients are much more demanding Yes.
32:48
In, in, in the aesthetic area, which is on the one side good for the
32:52
dentistry because, people see the benefit of getting a good treatment.
32:56
But it puts also a lot of pressure.
32:58
The developers on the guys to develop high quality and highend aesthetic outcomes.
33:03
And on you to develop the best procedures and best protocols
33:06
and best materials and products.
33:08
Yeah.
33:08
We take the challenge.
33:09
That's good.
33:09
Yeah.
33:09
That's a good challenge.
33:10
Yeah.
33:11
So beyond EAED you've been also quite active in, in the ITI and
33:17
you influenced also the ITIA lot.
33:19
What changes in both of the organization are you most proud about?
33:23
Well, I think in the ITII had a really long pathway.
33:26
It was wonderful.
33:27
Christoph Hämmerle introduced us to the ITI when he came to Zurich, and I got into
33:31
the Swiss leadership team and passed all the functions from study club coordinator
33:37
up to the leadership level, which I left three, four years ago, I think.
33:42
And I was also member at some point of the education committee.
33:47
On the global level, which Daniel Meyer invited me to.
33:50
And it was fantastic to see the organization, how it works.
33:54
And we are a scholarship center in Geneva and I'm really proud about this and happy.
33:58
And I see these scholars, these young clinicians, talented
34:02
people from all over the world.
34:04
How they further develop and the ITI is really offering these young
34:08
clinicians an opportunity for a career within the ITI, so they can really
34:12
make it up to the president's level.
34:14
And I think Ronnie was never a scholar, but he was involved
34:18
from the beginning son as well.
34:19
And that's a very good example.
34:20
And I think that's a fantastic organization and the scholarship program
34:23
is probably one of the best that it has.
34:26
Yes, but my function within the ITI, I think we influenced the educational
34:31
pathway in the education committee.
34:34
And on the EAED side, I'm happy that we are giving a lot of more emphasis to the
34:40
younger clinicians, to the next generation talents to be on stage and to present, to
34:45
get recognized, to be visualized at all.
34:47
Yeah.
34:48
Okay.
34:48
That's good.
34:49
So, I think education came a long way, and there's a lot that you guys
34:54
achieved in the field of education.
34:55
What are the gaps that you still see in education and what
34:58
has to change for the future?
35:00
Because I somehow feel that there needs to be something different, speaking about
35:04
all these technologies that come together, materials, science, digital workflows, ai.
35:09
And what have you.
35:10
There's a lot of technologies that create a big wave.
35:13
I would say.
35:14
What?
35:14
What do we have to change in education?
35:16
Well, I think the first thing that we have to change in education is that we have
35:19
to understand that the next generation.
35:22
Is functioning differently than we are.
35:24
They're consuming the content in a very different way.
35:27
They have to have rapid content, fast feedback, more video content than to read.
35:33
It has, it's a different way of approaching this next generation,
35:36
and it's something that we see at universities on the undergraduate level.
35:40
We see it also on the postgraduate level, and I think that educational platforms
35:44
and also the ITI is such a platform.
35:46
Has to address this at some point, we have to change the way that we
35:49
educate, these classical ways that we have done it, as we still do it.
35:55
They don't reach this next generation.
35:57
So for us it's a challenge day.
35:59
And another challenge that I see in the pre-graduate education is that patients
36:04
are probably less in need of treatments.
36:06
So to teach what we need to teach these young clinicians to become clinicians has
36:12
to maybe move more into the simulation level, and that's something that we
36:15
are working hard on at the moment.
36:17
So you're basically lacking patients lacking to a certain, not lacking
36:21
patients, but I think the mind shift is that we want to be
36:24
as least invasive as possible.
36:25
So the patients only receive treatment if they really need it.
36:29
And we are trying to even this treatment to provided the least
36:32
invasive as possible, which of course, shifts a little bit away from.
36:36
What, at least I have learned in the past, and we have to address this in education
36:40
to still deliver all the knowledge necessary for the daily clinical practice.
36:44
So what would be the, let's say, the three formats of the future
36:47
for you, for the young generation?
36:50
I would say a lot of quick tutorials, video tutorials.
36:54
Maybe with little online questionnaires and rapid feedback
36:58
on the knowledge simulation.
37:02
Of anything.
37:05
And less one hour lectures, I would say.
37:10
Classic format
37:10
that working.
37:11
Yeah.
37:11
Snipet.
37:12
Yeah, exactly.
37:13
Yeah.
37:13
And in terms of simulation, would you also see digital simulations as a possibility?
37:16
So VR.
37:17
Yes.
37:18
Coming into play or, yeah,
37:20
absolutely.
37:21
Yeah.
37:21
So we have a long experience working with the Federal Technical Institute
37:25
in Zurich on augmented reality.
37:27
And I think that this type of simulation is, just super imposing a projected
37:32
future perspective on teeth, for example, is a wonderful tool for
37:36
communication and for decision making.
37:39
So I think ai, ar, vr are definitely very important tools.
37:44
For the next generation of dentists to get prepared on what they're gonna
37:47
do and also practical simulation.
37:50
So while you're seeing it, that you're doing it
37:53
really manual?
37:53
Yeah.
37:53
Yeah.
37:54
Okay.
37:54
I was wondering,
37:55
because we are manual.
37:56
Exactly.
37:56
At the end you have to Yes.
37:58
Deliver everything manual.
37:59
Yes.
37:59
I also saw that you have a quite significant Instagram channel, and I know
38:04
it's yeah, I think it's 7,000 followers.
38:07
Yeah, but that's nothing today.
38:09
I think it's 7,000 is already very solid Instagram channel and
38:13
you see feed it quite actively.
38:15
Is it because you, you feel you have to do it as you are someone leading in
38:19
the field, or do you enjoy doing it?
38:21
Why?
38:21
Why do you do it?
38:22
No, I, in principle, it's a creative work.
38:25
I enjoyed everything that is related to photography, to creative is something that
38:29
attracts me, so I like that very much.
38:31
It is a nice way also to stay in touch with the community.
38:35
Around the world that normally you would not be in touch like this.
38:38
So it feels much closer.
38:39
Friends that are in Australia feel much closer this way.
38:42
And I think that's, it was, we started doing Instagram and Facebook maybe
38:47
in the early beginnings already.
38:49
So that's why, more as an intriguing tool to see what is it capable of?
38:53
What, where will it go to?
38:55
But I think it becomes a more and more also educational tool.
38:57
If you look into Marcus Blood's Instagram channel, it's a fantastic way
39:00
of bringing very important, relevant education into very short posts.
39:06
It's an art it's like a new art form to, to have these short videos that a
39:10
lot of people really appreciate because.
39:12
Again, they can take it back.
39:13
And use it maybe the next day in the clinical practice.
39:16
But it's also the dangerous way, because you cannot believe
39:19
everything that you see.
39:21
And how will clinicians stay?
39:22
No.
39:23
Critical towards what they're learning on Instagram and
39:25
instagram and Facebook dentistry.
39:27
I think as two sites, it can be very useful dentistry, it can be very,
39:32
in comparison to peer reviewed journals and the real research work.
39:35
That actually doesn't it?
39:37
Yes.
39:37
I think as you, as long as you use it as an inspiration.
39:40
I think you, you can spread concepts and techniques very fast through Instagram.
39:45
Yes.
39:45
There is no depth to it.
39:46
Then implementing a concept, and master it yes.
39:49
Takes a lot of depth.
39:50
There is no depth to it.
39:51
But creating awareness and inspiration, I think it's a good form to,
39:54
it's true, but the sources have to be credible.
39:57
Yes.
39:57
And they have to be really, well, I would say, studied beforehand.
40:00
And that's, I think when I look into Blood's channel, that's something
40:03
that he's really trying to bring up.
40:05
And I think it is very successful because of this, that this is really
40:08
evidence-based, broken down to a digestible, in a digestible way.
40:12
Yeah.
40:13
And some of the things that you're seeing you just, because you're
40:15
seeing it, you cannot repeat it.
40:16
Yeah.
40:18
Yeah.
40:18
That's the other thing, that's another topic because it,
40:19
it takes a lot of training.
40:21
Yeah.
40:22
Manual training, as you said before, to actually be capable
40:25
to do some of the dentistry.
40:26
Maybe not in the future, maybe if
40:28
robots do this for us, we only need to know the theoretical
40:31
part and how to operate.
40:32
Okay.
40:32
Interesting.
40:33
Robot, you
40:35
topic.
40:35
So how do you see this the future of robotics in dentistry?
40:40
Well, I see a bright future for robotics.
40:42
I'm just not sure if it's a hundred percent the right development because,
40:46
as dentists, we're human beings.
40:48
We're treating human beings.
40:50
We're we studied medicine in principle, yes.
40:52
We there to heal.
40:53
And the robot can do a technical gesture.
40:57
And maybe to use the robot to help improve the technical gesture makes sense.
41:01
But to delegate everything to robots, I would be a little bit afraid of.
41:05
And I hope not that the developments will go into directions.
41:09
I think we don't believe that this is going in that direction.
41:12
So it's more to augment actually some of the skills support
41:15
of clinical professionals.
41:18
But if you look into other areas like ophthalmology, I mean it's there, for
41:22
example, they took robots to do the most complicated, most precise things.
41:26
Everything around it is still in the hands of the clinician.
41:28
So,
41:29
and neurosurgery the same.
41:30
Exactly.
41:30
I think those are the domains where it makes a lot of sense.
41:33
Yeah, I think it's, the way we look at it is not to make a non-skilled
41:37
clinician doing treatments that he's not supposed to do.
41:39
Yeah.
41:40
But, to have a very experienced and skilled clinician to have some
41:43
more augmented skills or support or making him more efficient.
41:47
Yes.
41:47
But I think it's interesting to look as an example in intuitive surgical, like
41:51
20 years ago, intuitive Surgical with the DaVinci, there have been a niche.
41:55
Today they are probably one of the highest valued med tech
41:58
companies in the world today.
41:59
So I think it's an interesting comparison.
42:02
And they do surgery in neuro neurosurgery, which is also Yes.
42:06
Quite, let's say, difficult field to navigate through.
42:09
So it's
42:09
a life.
42:10
Threatening field's.
42:11
So that's really a very important field for dentistry.
42:13
I'm, I'm always a little bit in doubt whether we really need robotics,
42:17
and I think it's good to look at it in a critical way.
42:20
Yes, I think we have to stay curious on this technology, but we
42:23
also have to stay critical on it.
42:24
I think it's a good way to do it.
42:26
Absolutely.
42:26
I'm a little bit more scared about the dental technicians, to be honest, because
42:30
a lot of the work that robots are doing.
42:33
We can replace dental technicians.
42:36
Yeah.
42:36
Maybe not the final aesthetic tweak.
42:38
But if we once have materials that we can 3D print in the perfect aesthetics.
42:43
Yeah.
42:44
That's a little bit the domain where I'm a little bit worried about, to be honest.
42:47
Yeah.
42:47
For the future.
42:48
Yeah.
42:49
And we, I think we touched on it earlier in the podcast, the
42:52
importance of having a skilled, well-trained dental technician Yes.
42:57
At your side as a dentist is it's super important.
43:00
Right.
43:00
I think it's priceless.
43:02
Absolutely.
43:03
It has to be really a very intense teamwork.
43:05
Where exactly both sides are equally, I would say, knowledgeable
43:09
on what they're doing.
43:10
I think you and Vincent, you showcase this very nicely.
43:12
Also, this, well, okay.
43:13
Maybe the extreme of this?
43:16
Good extreme.
43:17
Maybe a last question before we move to your question.
43:20
Imagine you have a, now after all we spoke about, imagine you have a young clinician
43:24
that wants to build a successful future and practice in aesthetic dentistry.
43:31
What would be the three things you recommend to this person
43:34
to make it a long-term success?
43:36
How young is the person?
43:39
26.
43:40
26. So has maybe another 10 years where education makes a lot of sense.
43:45
So I would definitely motivate or encourage the colleague to do
43:50
a specialization at one of the.
43:53
I would say high level universities specialization can be in implant
43:57
dentistry, can be in reconstructive dentistry, but definitely
44:01
somebody wants to know more.
44:04
I would say a structured specialization program offers a lot.
44:08
I would definitely encourage such a young clinician also to get
44:12
involved with organizations like the ITI and to go to private practice.
44:19
Only to somebody on a high level to learn not to go to a DSO
44:25
where there is no supervision.
44:26
Not in the beginning at least.
44:28
Yeah.
44:30
Good.
44:30
Thanks a lot Irena, you share, you shared a lot of valuable insights
44:33
now and then stories with us.
44:35
Now I think you also brought a question.
44:36
We also want you to give you the possibility to ask a question to us.
44:40
So where's Straumann going?
44:42
I think that you're really, I would say dominating the field of digital dentistry.
44:46
In the last years, and I think it's a very impressive development,
44:49
and I congratulate you for this.
44:51
And it's not just dominating, it's really on high level and the sky's
44:56
the limit, for a company like yours.
45:00
So where are you going?
45:03
So that, that's a very good question.
45:04
A big question.
45:05
I think we could speak for hours on this one.
45:07
We should have another postcard the other way around maybe.
45:10
Exactly.
45:10
Yeah, we can do that.
45:12
Exactly.
45:12
We happy to do this.
45:14
I think I would start with our.
45:17
Core business, which is still implant dentistry.
45:21
And I think what we are happy to see is that, this field of implant
45:24
dentistry that there is no end that we can see to the growth of implant
45:29
dentistry because the penetration is still so low and there are a lot of.
45:33
Developments in society that that still make the field of implant industry grow.
45:37
The meta effect is, only 10 out of a hundred patients receive an implant while,
45:43
let's say the other 90% either do nothing or they receive a three unit bridge.
45:47
And I think looking at scientific data, I think we still need to work
45:52
hard to make sure that the penetration of implant industry is growing.
45:56
And then in implant industry we see still a lot of innovation that we can do that.
46:01
There's, we have a very strong innovation program, George, I think we can say that.
46:05
I think there's a lot about innovating in the field of workflows, making
46:09
implant industry more efficient, more convenient for clinicians and patients.
46:13
I think there's a lot that we can still do, but there's also a lot
46:16
still on the material and design side.
46:18
And at one point I think we are also working to redefine
46:22
implant industry for the future.
46:24
Looking into the next 10 to 15 years, I think we, we have a lot of ideas.
46:28
Well, maybe I could support you with something.
46:30
We're now coming out with a systematic review, update on three unit bridges
46:34
made out of different materials and all in all three unit bridges supported
46:39
by teeth on the long term and not performing as well as crowns stools.
46:42
So I think to place single implants in between.
46:45
And to have three crowns instead of three unit bridges.
46:48
Definitely I think.
46:49
In the very near future and evidence-based recommendation that we can make.
46:54
So I think implant dentistry has a lot of potential for patients, definitely.
46:59
Yes.
46:59
But that, that helps a lot to have this basis also from the scientific
47:02
side because it's not easy to convey this message to some of
47:06
the, I would say, dentists that are still working very classically.
47:10
So to, it's what they learned.
47:12
And then the question is, how much of the.
47:14
Patient does need education in terms of already knowing
47:17
what they would like to have.
47:19
So I think these are also questions that are important to us.
47:21
You see it's patient expectation.
47:23
What do they want?
47:25
That's the most critical parameter.
47:27
Is it quick cheaper fix, or is it something that is actually,
47:30
hopefully for lifetime?
47:31
Yeah.
47:32
So I think to summarize maybe on your question, I think.
47:35
Half the way we look at it, half of it is going to be still, evolving
47:39
products and material and, making those better and more relevant and
47:44
easier for clinicians and patients.
47:45
And the other half that we see is more on the experience side
47:49
to make things more flawless.
47:50
And more easy.
47:51
Look at your iPhone, how easy it is today, to look at your
47:54
pictures from your vacation like 10 years ago or five years ago.
47:58
You have everything on your mobile phone.
48:00
Look at how you play the music and how you share it.
48:02
Yeah.
48:03
Today in dentistry it's much more difficult.
48:05
Still a lot of island.
48:06
Yeah.
48:06
The smart cloud is going in the right direction with this respect
48:09
And I think cloud technology, AI technology, 3D printing technology,
48:14
there's a lot of technologies that, that are coming in that will help us
48:18
to make this all of this more seamless and more an experience like, like
48:21
we all know it from bigger other.
48:23
Let's say platforms and cloud systems.
48:25
You see the interesting thing you're mentioning, the iPhone.
48:27
Can you picture yourself in the times before mobile telephones?
48:33
I can not,
48:34
I feel really old because I can still remember when I had
48:36
banana phones I was super happy.
48:38
Well, the ones when you were turning the dial, do you remember that?
48:42
Yes, unfortunately.
48:42
I remember.
48:43
Me too.
48:45
Yeah.
48:45
Then again, we all memorize this, but then again, we saw how fast
48:49
we got used to the new technology and how fast we could not imagine.
48:53
To go back to the old technology.
48:55
Yes.
48:55
And I think this is what you mentioned before, I think we also have to rematch
48:59
how we want to do dentistry in the future.
49:02
And I would really encourage the young clinicians to look into those cloud
49:06
technologies, digital diagnostics, 3D printing, because it will be.
49:12
The new normal in a very few years from now.
49:15
I remember a dream that we had at the University of Zurich when Ronnie
49:18
and I were sharing the office.
49:20
It was that the patient would walk through the door and the frame of the door would
49:23
already be the scanner, scan the patient, and you will have all the data already
49:27
on the screen in the dental office.
49:30
When the patient comes in.
49:32
Yes.
49:32
And we're getting closer and closer to this.
49:34
Yeah.
49:34
So, with more smarter IO scanners that can do more than just scan.
49:38
Exactly.
49:38
That could look into tissues, that could recognize components.
49:41
Yeah.
49:41
That could actually,
49:42
monitor,
49:42
match maybe what patient diagnostics has been done before.
49:46
Yeah.
49:46
So I think it's it's a very interesting field.
49:49
I think our motto needs to be, we need to disrupt ourselves before we get
49:53
disrupted from other companies because this period also has the potential at
49:56
smaller companies, particularly on the digital side can bring in a matter of
50:01
year or two very significant advancements.
50:04
And we need to be part of this.
50:06
And also this, the whole advent of generative ai will allow
50:11
to be done a lot different.
50:13
I don't think it will make.
50:15
Let's say professionals obsolete.
50:17
But I think those that use it, they will be much more effective
50:20
and also just better for, for the patients and the treatment.
50:24
Well, in the best case, you can improve dentistry in areas where it's not that.
50:27
Well performed as it is in Switzerland.
50:29
I think we're in the lucky situation here.
50:31
We're pretty good.
50:32
Yeah.
50:32
No, it's true.
50:34
And I think, George, to what you said, I see a lot of visionaries
50:38
in the field of dentistry today.
50:39
The CEO of Sprint, tray flooring, kofa, people like this, it's
50:43
amazing, and I think it's amazing what we can learn from them.
50:46
I think what we also have to do as a company is we have to
50:49
stay open and collaborative.
50:50
We don't need to own everything, but, we also, we don't want to
50:54
have closed systems, exactly.
50:55
The open horizon.
50:56
Yeah.
50:57
Lock people into, this AI or this technology, but we wanna remain open
51:02
to also, give these visionaries.
51:03
Partially also a platform and have more collaborative approach
51:06
than an ownership approach.
51:08
Yes.
51:08
To the industry.
51:08
And I think also clinicians will benefit from this.
51:10
That's a perfect attitude.
51:11
I think that's great.
51:12
Open innovation is key and it's became our second nature.
51:15
So it's not that we don't, we need to do everything ourselves.
51:17
Exactly.
51:18
Wonderful.
51:19
Cool.
51:19
I think this brings us to the end, even though I realized we
51:22
could continue for another hour.
51:23
Yes.
51:24
When did you drink your waters?
51:25
I didn't have the time yet.
51:28
George.
51:29
What stood out for you today?
51:31
Well, first of all, I would like to thank you very much, Irena.
51:34
It was a great conversation.
51:35
And I just,
51:36
Pleasures are all mine.
51:37
I realized how much, actually, particularly also you and your
51:39
teams, they contributed in the last 20 years to the evolvement
51:43
of materials in the dental field.
51:45
It was in the back of my head, but now that you told the story
51:47
a bit it was very fascinating.
51:49
And I think that was the one thing that really stood out.
51:52
For me.
51:52
It's, it.
51:54
The field needs professionals like you that really try to
51:57
solve problems in the long term.
51:59
And somehow you contributed a lot in that field.
52:01
And that yeah.
52:02
This is really great to see.
52:04
Yeah.
52:04
And I hope also our listeners will recognize how much it changed over time.
52:08
What take, what we take for granted today has been, as you said, at
52:12
one point in time it was not clear whether ceramic would go south.
52:15
Yeah.
52:15
And like that really stood out for me.
52:18
Yeah.
52:19
Yeah.
52:19
That's inspiring part of it.
52:20
And then you need a great team around you.
52:22
Yes.
52:23
And I would say I'm blessed with a great team around me.
52:25
That's good.
52:26
Happy to.
52:27
No.
52:27
Also, I think what stood out for me is the way you mentor the young generation,
52:30
in, in your department, but also in associations like the IDI and the
52:34
European Academy for Aesthetic Industry.
52:36
I think it's very important that you guys help the next generation.
52:40
That's awesome.
52:40
To grow, to get on stage and, to also get over.
52:43
Difficult times.
52:44
Yes.
52:44
Because we know it's important.
52:45
So to go through those times.
52:47
And I think that something that also stood out.
52:49
So thanks a lot, Irena, for being here.
52:53
Thank you.
52:53
Great pleasure.
52:53
Thank you for having me.
52:53
Thanks lot.
52:54
It was fantastic with you guys.
52:56
Thanks a lot.
52:56
And thanks for the listeners to listen in.
52:59
So, continue to watch out for the next episodes I can already spoil
53:03
at one of the next episodes will be Irena's predecessor, which is Professor
53:07
Urs Belser that we'll also have.
53:09
And we are also happy to have your comments either on our Instagram
53:13
channel or also please give us a rating and a comment on any of the
53:17
podcast platforms that you might listen in the, on the podcast.
53:21
So thanks a lot, George.
53:22
Thanks a lot for Irena for being here.
53:24
Thank you.
53:25
The two of you.
53:25
Thank you very much.