Latest / Clear Admit MBA Admissions Podcast / MBA Wire Taps 369—655 GMAT, completed PhD. 675 GMAT, do they explain? 4 years of experience, still an undergraduate.

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MBA Wire Taps 369—655 GMAT, completed PhD. 675 GMAT, do they explain? 4 years of experience, still an undergraduate. · Clear Admit MBA Admissions Podcast

• 0:16
  Speaker A: Welcome to the clear admit MBA admissions podcast. I'm Graham Richmond, and this is your wiretaps for Monday, July 29, 2024. I'm joined by Alex Brown from Cornwall, England. Alex, how are things going this week?
• 0:28
  Speaker B: Very good, thank you, Graham.
• 0:29
  Speaker A: So what's cooking? I mean, it's been quiet on Livewire. Busy on apply wire?
• 0:35
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I mean, obviously, as we've talked last couple of weeks, so no need to belabor it, but things are quieting down. I did see someone get off the waitlist at Wharton on Livewire earlier last week, so maybe there's a bit of movement there, because that tends to then create a knock on effect.
• 0:54
  Speaker A: Right.
• 0:55
  Speaker B: So, for instance, if they've already got a spot at Kellogg or something, maybe there's a spot, opens up a Kellogg, etc, etcetera. So. So a little bit happening, but obviously we're switching gears. We're heading to the next season. Graham, I'm going to put you on the spot. I got a quiz for you.
• 1:14
  Speaker A: Uh oh. Okay.
• 1:15
  Speaker B: Which top school is first to go with their application? Round one. Application deadline.
• 1:22
  Speaker A: Oh, boy. Is it Harvard?
• 1:24
  Speaker B: Is it Harvard? I'm asking you to tell me not to ask me.
• 1:29
  Speaker A: Well, I'm gonna say Harvard, but I don't actually know. Off the top of my head.
• 1:32
  Speaker B: It's Cambridge judge. August 27.
• 1:36
  Speaker A: Wow, that's early. Okay, so they're out in front this year.
• 1:40
  Speaker B: Okay. So in terms of the us programs, you would have been correct. September 4, Harvard Business School, as well as Wharton. September 4. So September 4 seems to be the kickoff date, as well as Fuqua, actually, with their early action deadline. So September 4 is the kickoff day for the us based programs. But judge gets in front of them.
• 2:04
  Speaker A: All right. And that means that we are a little over a month away. And, well, in the case of judge, less than a month. But with those us schools, just a bit more than a month until those deadlines. That is crazy. So things are coming up fast.
• 2:16
  Speaker B: I'll ask you one more question as part of our quiz, which is the most popular date for an application deadline throughout the season?
• 2:29
  Speaker A: Ooh. Including all rounds. I'm gonna say it's gotta be January. I'm gonna say. I don't know. I was gonna say January 3, but I might say the 6th. I don't know. One of those two.
• 2:45
  Speaker B: I think the 6th comes out in front.
• 2:48
  Speaker A: Okay. Yeah. Schools always stack their round two deadlines after the holidays, so. Yeah. Everyone be warned, there's a lot of deadlines coming, and often they're clustered. And so that requires some planning on the part of the applicant to make sure you get everything ready and submitted on time. Speaking of that, Alex, we've had three essay insight webinars over the last three weeks. We have one more and it's going to be this Wednesday. I'm sitting down. I'll moderate a discussion with admissions directors from Yale, Columbia Business School, University of Michigan, Ross and Ese in Barcelona. So that's going to be fun. That's the last one in the series and you can sign up at bit ly summeressays. What a series we've had, Alex, I can't even believe how many people have been showing up for these events and it's just been a lot of fun moderating them.
• 3:41
  Speaker B: Yeah, no, absolutely. Fantastic. So again, I'll put you on the spot. Graham, give us some insight that you learned from last week's event.
• 3:47
  Speaker A: Ooh. Well, I mean, obviously schools continue to talk a lot about authenticity. There's also, there seems to be schools are coalescing around a kind of AI strategy, which is that they feel like it's okay to have chat GPT, read something you've written for grammar proofreading kind of thing, or even to use it as a brainstorming tool at the outset. But almost every admissions officer said something to the effect of don't have it write the essay for you because it's going to be terrible and they claim they can tell and it just. So, yeah, so that was the consensus. It's good as a brainstorming tool, great as a proofreader, you know, to help improve your language, but be careful about having it do the actual writing.
• 4:27
  Speaker B: I mean, I hate to say it, we talked about this before we came on air grain, but admissions consultants must be panicking.
• 4:32
  Speaker A: Yeah, it's got to be a little bit more challenging, although the strategy of somebody's approach is still important, you know, in terms of what are the stories you're going to share and. But yeah, the grammar piece, I guess, is maybe going by the wayside a bit.
• 4:45
  Speaker B: You can do the strategy piece right off, chat GPT.
• 4:48
  Speaker A: You could, yeah, why not? At least it could help you get started in that domain. Alex, we have a bunch of cool stuff on the website that I wanted to mention. We did an article that's called ready, set. Right. And basically it's sort of an overview of like, what schools are asking for in their essays. And so I'm going to put you on the spot. I don't know if you've read the article and it doesn't matter if you have. It's almost better if you haven't. What do you think are the five most common types of questions? Like, so we kind of grouped questions. Right. So what would you say is the most popular question that a school asks for an essay?
• 5:25
  Speaker B: What are your goals?
• 5:26
  Speaker A: Yeah. Okay. That's number one. Any idea as to what might be number two? This is tricky.
• 5:32
  Speaker B: There'd be some kind of leadership style question.
• 5:35
  Speaker A: So there is a leadership question. That's the fourth most popular. Okay. Any ideas? Any guesses on the others?
• 5:42
  Speaker B: Well, leadership would combine teamwork and various other attributes. I put that sort of cluster those together. Sort of why my school. But I clustered that into the goals essay, too.
• 5:56
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
• 5:58
  Speaker B: So, yeah, I'm on the spot and I'm failing. Graham, I'll let you off the hook.
• 6:04
  Speaker A: It's all right. So, the second most popular type of question is around achievements and kind of that sort of stuff, like things that demonstrate your values and what you've accomplished and your sense of self and all that. So there's sort of like, that's one group, and then the other one that's quite popular is essays about diversity and inclusion. So, times you've helped others, and then comes leadership. And the last one is more about. We clustered it as sort of change and curiosity. So, things. Times that you've been a change maker or things about your sort of curiosity, intellectual curiosity. So there are a handful of those. But anyway, yeah, career goals leads the way. I think there are 18 out of the 25 schools we looked at, 18 of them have some flavor of a kind of career goals essay.
• 6:50
  Speaker B: I really like those clusters. And the diversity sort of bucket in my mind probably is more front and center now than it was probably a couple of years ago since the Supreme Court decision, because you can't just have applicants check a box and stuff. You've got to have them write about it and write about their experience, their lived experience, etc. Etc. So that makes a lot of sense. Yeah.
• 7:19
  Speaker A: Yeah. So if you're preparing essays, those are kind of five big buckets that you should be thinking about, you know, what stories do you have that fit into those groups? We also ran a couple of admissions tips, Alex. Cause it's just that time of year, we're really trying to help people. And so there's a tip about how to make your resume for business school, which also includes a video that you and I recorded about making a resume. And then there's also a special admissions tip about how to apply to business school if you are a younger candidate. So lots of good advice there. We continued to catch up with admissions directors. So Lauren and our team has just been doing a great job of getting these articles together where she connects with admissions directors and asks them all kinds of questions about their process. So we connected with Charlotte Russell Green over at Cambridge Judge and we asked her, how do you approach the essay portion when you're reading a file? And she said, we get asked this a lot and it's difficult to answer without giving too much away. She said, the essays are the opportunity for us to see how the applicant thinks, responds and reflects, as well as to get an idea as to whether they are a good fit. What we're looking for is example that best answers the question and shows your capabilities, resilience, self awareness, and critical reflection, as well as a little bit of who you are. So that's kind of Charlotte Russell Green's advice over at Cambridge Judge. Pretty good advice, I would say.
• 8:37
  Speaker B: Yeah, no, fantastic. She didn't talk about use chat GPT as a brainstorming tool.
• 8:42
  Speaker A: No, she didn't. Yeah, we also got connected with Claire Fitzgibbons over at Notre Dame Mendoza, and she gave an essay tip as well. She said Notre Dame MBA program applicants are asked to submit four slides to get to know them better. That's like one of the exercises that they have to do. She said, this is an additional visual opportunity to let the admissions committee get to know you beyond the information in your transcript, resume and other application materials. Format's up to you, and it's okay to showcase your personality. Past applicants have convinced me to travel to new destinations, demonstrated their love for music through your Spotify wrapped statistics. And many have reminded me that time with loved ones is one of the most precious commodities that we have. And then she said, we look forward to learning more about you. So they have that fun exercise, which reminds me of, there's a couple of schools that have that type of thing, but that was Claire over at Notre Dame. So good advice there.
• 9:37
  Speaker B: Where does that fit in your five clusters of essay themes?
• 9:40
  Speaker A: I think it falls maybe in the curiosity or actually it's a good question.
• 9:45
  Speaker B: I'd have to curiosity and creativity.
• 9:47
  Speaker A: Yeah, maybe that's why. Yeah. And then we also caught up with Blair Mannix at Wharton, and Blair gave an interesting statement. We ask them all kinds of questions, as you know. And one of the questions we ask about is whether they allow for waivers, you know, do they, does somebody have to take the GMAT or GRE or EA or whatever test it might be? And here's what Blair had to say on their testing policy. She said. When Covid disrupted life in the spring of 2020, we saw many peer institutions either drop testing requirements or offer waivers. Even during that time, we felt strongly about our testing requirement. We've done a lot of data analysis on the predictive power of standardized testing within the Wharton classroom and beyond. And due to that research, the standardized testing component of our application will remain the same going forward. So typical to Wharton. They've done some research with data, and they say the test is predictive. They want to keep it. They're not waiving tests. What do you make of that?
• 10:40
  Speaker B: I love the honesty and transparency. I think some schools will say some stuff, and the reality is test scores are important. Absolutely. Test waivers is dangerous in most cases, and we've said this on so many occasions, and we're not deviating from it. Blair's, Blair's a good example of why that is important. I'm not sure I agree with the outcome of their research on team based interview process, but I absolutely agree with this.
• 11:13
  Speaker A: You know, it's funny, and I've actually talked to a number of other admissions deans at you. Schools similarly rank to Wharton. And I do hear that refrain over and over again that the data they have suggests that actually being able to do well on these tests does impact your performance in the classroom. So lastly, we caught up with Mohammed Salhia, who is at Toronto Rotman, and he said, I asked him, lauren on our team asked him about essay tips, and he said, let's start with what applicants should keep in mind. Be yourself and write your own essay. It's easy to use tools like chat GPT to write an essay, but I would avoid doing this. The essay components of our application are meant for us to assess a variety of things. It's not just a writing assessment. It's a tool for us to see how you put your thoughts and ideas together, your creativity, the things about which you're passionate, why you want to be here, what you value, and what you would add to the program. Essays are an opportunity for you to make the most compelling case to us. So that was his advice there. He directly went right out there and talked about chat GPT. So that was kind of interesting.
• 12:15
  Speaker B: Yeah. But I would argue that you can still use chat GPT and still do exactly what they're expressing folks to do. It's a great brainstorming tool.
• 12:26
  Speaker A: Yeah, I think what he's saying is consistent with what we've heard other admissions directors say, don't have it. Write the entire thing for you. And just take three minutes and have it, write it and drop it into your app and be done with it. You need to really use it as a brainstorm, and your voice needs to be there. But let's see. On the podcast I did, a lot of these interviews I did at GMAC are starting to come out, so we did one with Emily Brierly over at Cambridge Judge that's aired this week. There's going to be some additional ones, I think, from Sherry Hubert at Duke and Eddie Aspie over at Cornell. There are many more to come. They're already now, so they're coming out into the feed. These are ten minute long mini episodes that we're running. Other than that, Alex, we did get, for the first time in a long time, we got a review of the show. I was very excited to see this because the reviewer titled their review it's a five star review, and they titled it thanks, Alex and Graham. And the reviewer said, I really look forward to tuning in every Monday to hear your advice. I hadn't come across your wires or the website before, and I just stumbled onto the podcast a few months ago when feeling a bit stuck and unsure if an MBA felt right for me. I appreciate hearing ways in which individuals might be underestimating themselves or parts of their candidacy to fine tune further. Excited to submit my details on the wires once I have a GMAT score in a few weeks. Best of luck, everyone. So that was a great review. Just nice to see people tuning in and taking the time to leave a review. Very cool.
• 13:51
  Speaker B: Yeah. Quite curious how they found us.
• 13:53
  Speaker A: Yeah, maybe it was suggested, and you can search in the browser and your podcast stuff and. Yeah, I don't know. Good question. You can reach out to us by writing to infoeradmit.com dot, use the subject line wiretaps. You can also leave reviews like our last listener did there. That was great. Please continue to do so. And yeah, Alex, anything else before we talk about this week's candidates?
• 14:13
  Speaker B: No. Let's kick on.
• 14:15
  Speaker A: All right, so this is wiretaps candidate number one. Our first candidate this week has eight schools on the target list, and they want to start school in the fall of 25. They've got Berkeley, Harvard, MIT, Kellogg, Stanford, Chicago, UCLA, and Wharton. This candidate has a PhD in engineering. They've also been an MBB consultant. They've worked in an education nonprofit and even done some sort of small entrepreneurial side hustles after business school. They're thinking about an entrepreneurial goal. They've taken the GMAT, the newer version of the test, and they secured a 655 on that test, which kind of parallels to like a 710 if you're keeping score at home and thinking in old GMAT terms. They had a 3.3 GPA, and they have three years of work experience located in southern California. And they're thinking about California after business school, but they're also open to heading to the east coast. They did mention in the notes that they are a 31 year old hispanic male. They went to public universities, top 20 mechanical engineering programs for both their undergrad and PhD degrees. They worked as a consultant, as I said, for one of the MBB firms. That's McKinsey Boehner BcG. And they actually took that job at the MBA level, right, because they had a PhD, so they were hired in at a pretty high level. They then were dropped, actually, from MBB, and so they moved on to work with the C suite of a mid sized education nonprofit. There's a lot more here, Alex, and I know you had some dialogue with this candidate, but I thought it'd be great to just get your take because they had some questions for us about how do they handle the fact that they were let go by McKinsey Bayne or BCG? And, yeah, just some other general questions about their candidates. So what do you make of this?
• 16:07
  Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I actually really like this candidate in terms of, you know, they got a PhD. They went MBB directly afterwards, probably in a little bit on the deep end given, you know, the engineering PhD, rather than, you know, a bit more of a sort of business related background or whatever. And, in fact, that experience has sort of been the spark for their understanding that getting an MBA can be really helpful to them. But I wouldn't dwell on that. I think that progression out of the MBB to the sort of c suite type working in the nonprofit sector, it looks like they've done very well, etcetera, and they've got a pretty interesting goal post MBA. I think they're working with their PhD advisor, or at least in touch with their PhD advisor, potentially commercializing some product out of their research efforts, etcetera. So there might be some really interesting opportunities for them down the road with an MBA in hand. I do think that they've, you know, they've done some interesting things along the way. Graham. Their profile is interesting, so that should. Should help them, too. So, yeah, I think getting the NBA makes a lot of sense. Their GMAT's probably not outstanding at 655, but I think the balance of that is having a PhD in mechanical engineering is pretty impressive. So, yeah, overall, I like this candidacy. I think they probably should just really fine tune those post MBA goals. And I think that PhD advisory is going to be one of their recommenders, so they can talk to that too, et cetera, et cetera. So a bit of a non traditional candidate in terms of the pathway that they've undertaken so far, but there are some very positive elements within that candidacy.
• 18:12
  Speaker A: Yeah. And I think one of the things that some of our listeners may not be aware of is that, I mean, there's a very much up or out culture at a lot of these strategy consulting firms where, I mean, literally, like half the people who come in don't stay for long. Right. So it's definitely. That's the culture. So it's not unusual to kind of move on after a couple of years. So I think they don't need to sort of explain that. But I do think that it could be a great springboard as to, like you were saying why they realized they want an MBA, you know, because maybe even in their current role, they're kind of learning on the go when it comes to some of these business skills. And so they have a very rational reason for getting the MBA. I like the profile as well. I mean, they are a little bit older cause they have the PhD, but they're also kind of underrepresented hispanic male. So I think there's a lot to like here and, yeah, I just think be an interesting voice in the classroom as well. Right. So just different sort of set of experiences, but also have at least dipped their toe in the sort of traditional business world with that MBB job, so they can kind of play both sides of the fence there. So, yeah, I feel like, I mean, could the GMAT score be higher, maybe? I mean, I did wonder whether they needed to perhaps cast like a slightly wider net. I mean, the list that they have of target schools is somewhat top heavy, but I think they could go into round one with this list and see where the chips fall and then always pivot with some round two apps if need be.
• 19:36
  Speaker B: Yeah. And I think that the fact that they've done well since MBB in their current roles and really able to show growth and impact, I think that's going to be important.
• 19:46
  Speaker A: Agreed. Yeah. So anyway, I want to thank them for sharing their profile. Really interesting. And they also were super helpful engaging with you and answering the subsequent questions you had. So appreciate all that. I wish them the best of luck. Hopefully they'll keep us posted. Let's move on though, and talk about wiretaps. Candidate number two. So our second candidate for this week has six schools on the target list and those schools are Cornell, Dartmouth, Duke, Michigan, Kellogg and Yale. This person is also looking to start in the fall of 25. They've been working in consulting at a firm called ZS Associates. That's their pre MBA role they are looking to get into. Well, they have a bunch of options listed for post MBA. They mentioned consulting, banking, pharma, and as a result they list companies across those three sectors. Their GMAT score is a 675. That's the GMAT focus edition. And again, if you're curious, that's about a 730 on the old test, 3.9 GPA, four years of work experience. They're located in Pune, India, and they want to land in the states. They mentioned that they were top three in their class, I would imagine with that 3.9 as an undergrad and that they graduated from a top ten engineering college in India. They also have had some pretty good impact at work selling kind of projects and getting proposals to land that, I guess it sounds like for over $2 million worth of value. And then they have some outside activities as well. They do some stuff with education. It sounds like they're. Yeah, they've been helping a lot of like doing a lot of mentoring work. Now they're a little concerned about their GMAT score. They are particularly worried about the, I guess the quant, which they said, you know, they ended up at the 81st percentile in Quant, I think is what they had said. So they were concerned about that, wondering if they need to do anything about it in their, like write an essay about that. So, Alex, what do you make of this candidacy overall and can you address that question that they had about, you know, should they do something about that low test score for. In their mind?
• 21:56
  Speaker B: Yeah, I don't think they need to do anything about it at all. In terms of writing an optional essay.
• 22:01
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 22:02
  Speaker B: If they think that, you know, they can get a better score and they have the bandwidth and the wherewithal to do it and they can still apply in round one, then yeah, go ahead and retake the test and get that better score. But the score itself overall, it's a good score. And, you know, they're over a decent threshold with the quant. And I think the reason why they're stressing about it a little bit is because they have such a strong quant, heavy undergraduate record and work experience. So basically they're like, you know what, I'm super nerdy, dude. And I don't think the quant score absolutely reflects that. It doesn't really matter anyway. The point is, yeah, if you can get a better score, just go and do it. But don't write an essay about a score that's already pretty, pretty, pretty damn good, whilst you also have a strong quant profile anyway. So, yeah, hopefully that's, that's dealt with again. This is a super smart person. They look like they've done really well in their work and I think they, you know, they seem like a very decent human being in terms of their mentorship and providing opportunities for others in not such a good situation. So I think that'll come across well too. I'd like to see their goals focused like we talked about before coming on air, more focused on sort of life sciences, healthcare. I think clearly in this case, this candidate is going to be over represented. So they have to be in round one. That's not going to be the case for our first candidate. They've got the luxury of round one or round two, but this candidate has to be in, in round one. And, you know, quite honestly, I think, you know, they should maybe even throw their profile candidacy in at Wharton. Like really look at those top healthcare related MBA programs as part of the mix. So, yeah, I mean, they've got a few in there already, but Wharton's missing.
• 24:13
  Speaker A: Yeah, that was an interesting omission to me. I mean, I think I agree with you. So they mentioned in the short term they would like to potentially go to MBB and do consulting. And I think what they really need to do is give this candidacy a pharma healthcare slant because the consulting they've been doing with this Zs associates is healthcare consulting, so far as I understand it. So they need to really push that angle. I think that'll help differentiate and yeah, if they are interested, which they claim to be in the longer term of staying in the healthcare life sciences sector, then schools like Duke, Kellogg, Wharton, there are a handful of them. Michigan has a nice initiative now. I mean, there are a lot of schools that have strengths here and so they need to be make sure that they're kind of. Of tailoring their school selection accordingly. I think they do not need to address the GMAT. I mean, a 730 or the equivalent of a 730 is competitive. Is it below average for an indian candidate? Probably, but GPA is stellar and everything else kind of lines up. So I think there's no reason to kind of write about this. Obviously, if they thought they could take the test again and do better, sure, go for it. It'll only increase their odds. But they certainly don't write an optional essay about why you think your 730 is a failure or something. Exactly. Or 675. I'm just still used to the old scoring system, so I'm using those old numbers. But in any event, I do want to thank them for sharing their profile. And as you said, as long as they apply in the first round and get their strategy right with this healthcare focus, I think this should be okay. We'll see how it turns out for them.
• 25:44
  Speaker B: Yeah. Fingers crossed.
• 25:45
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 25:45
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 25:46
  Speaker A: All right, let's move on and talk about wiretaps. Candidate number three. So our third candidate this week has a whopping 19 schools on the target list. I'm not going to read them out, but it is essentially a mix of kind of us top 20 schools. Right. There's just a range in there. It's pretty top heavy, but it's sort of the top schools in the US. They're looking to start in the fall of 25. They've been working in commercial real estate management, but as you will soon hear, they're also a student right now. So they're thinking about after business school, getting into either investment banking or VCPE or maybe asset management, something finance oriented. And they list off a whole bunch of companies. It's a who's who of the Goldman's and the JP Morgan's and Blackstones of the world. They have a stunning 3.95 gpa in undergrad and they are a rising senior. So they have three years of work experience. And the way that they've gotten this work experience is by basically working a 40 hours a week job while studying. So they are counting that as full time work experience. And I'm going to be really curious to get your take on this, Alex. They're located in Malibu, California. They're looking to get a full time MBA or potentially an MS in finance. And they're saying that, you know, they're actually quite active at their current university. So in addition to, like, working full time, they're the president of the finance club, they're the founder of a student investment fund, and, you know, they've. They've launched a conference, a finance conference at the school. So they're very busy. And, you know, you had some back and forth with them because this is very unorthodox. Right. You would not see a rising senior applying to business school unless it was for deferred enrollment. One ingredient that I just should mention here, too, is they haven't taken the GMAT yet. They've taken some practice tests and scored around a 660 on the current. On the new test, which I don't know why they would get a 660. It should have a five at the end. But anyway, they're saying around 700 on the old exam is where they've been landing with practice tests. But, Alex, what do you make of this situation? Because there's a bunch of variables, you know, current student MS and finance versus MBA. Like, lots of stuff to talk about here.
• 27:58
  Speaker B: Yeah. Does this person sleep?
• 28:02
  Speaker A: High one?
• 28:03
  Speaker B: It's crazy, right? You've got a 395 gpa, so they're obviously studying very hard.
• 28:09
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 28:10
  Speaker B: They're working 40 hours a week, yet they're. Extracurriculars are outstanding, so maybe they're hitting them.
• 28:20
  Speaker A: How hard is the school, I wonder?
• 28:22
  Speaker B: Yeah, but they're hitting the markers on all three, right. So that's really super impressive. I would say to this person, go work in investment banking post undergrad for two or three years and then get an NBA. I just think this. This idea of, all right. Trying to go after the NBA directly now, one, yeah, they'll probably get it. Get. Get some offers in maybe fourth or fifth tier, top tier programs, maybe top, top 20, top 25 or whatever it might be. And I might be wrong, maybe they get an offer at top 16 or something. But I think if they were to get to investment banking experience now post undergrad, because that's something that they're looking to do post MBA or whatever it might be. But if they could pull that off now for a couple of years and set themselves up for an m seven type program, they might find themselves a lot better off. This idea that they've got four years of experience wherever all of that experience effectively has come prior to them actually having an undergraduate degree may raise questions with ADCOM, what was the quality of that experience? So, you know, when we talk about typically the average three or four years of experience for folks starting a top tier MBA program, this is post undergraduate experience where, you know, it's. That there's going to be some assumed quality, etcetera, because they've already got the undergraduate degree. So maybe their quality of experience is outstanding. I mean, I don't know that, but that's where I think the issues might lie a little bit. So should they go and get an. So their question is they want to get either an MBA or an MS and final. So maybe you would push back and say, well, just go ahead and get an MS in finance, then, because that's typically, more typically what you would do directly after undergrad. But if they. If they're studying a finance degree already, which I'm guessing they are because they're running the finance club and doing all finance related stuff, then would getting an MS in finance now really set them up? In the back of my mind, I'm wondering if where they are studying for their undergrad doesn't provide them a pipeline into investment banking. That might be the reason why they're looking at some of these other potential routes. But if they can get into investment banking now, I think that would be by far their better opportunity.
• 31:10
  Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. I mean, I see two paths here, right? One is they graduate and get a job, like you say, in finance, in investment banking, and hopefully the school they're attending has a pipeline for that, and they can work with their career center to get that job. And then after they've done their couple years as an analyst and maybe gotten promoted, then they can start looking at full time MBA programs and at the very top end of the tier, assuming they do well on the test and everything. Now, another option for them would be to apply for deferred enrollment to a top MBA program during their senior year. So they could apply to any number of top programs in the deferred deferred cycle. And that would mean that they get in while they're a college senior. But they then promise to go and work for two to four years before matriculating. They have a seat saved for them at a top MBA. And what's nice about that is it takes a lot of the pressure off. They could do different things. They could do maybe investment banking, but they could also dabble in something entrepreneurial or go and do some vc work or wherever the path takes them. There's a lot less pressure. But again, in order to do that, they would need to match their stunning GPA with a very high test score because these deferred enrollment programs really take the cream of the crop when it comes to candidates. So I'm not like you, I'm not very high on them doing the kind of masters in finance. I just don't see it as a path if they've already been studying finance at the undergraduate level and could probably go and get a job in finance. So I don't think that's the best option for them. But in any event, it's an interesting case because I think a lot of schools would say, no, we really want post collegiate full time work experience. And so they may discount those three years of experience a person has had, or four by the time they matriculate so, yeah, it's going to be an uphill battle, I think, to transition right into an MBA program, at least into a top one.
• 32:58
  Speaker B: Yeah, but they will be able to. But it'll be a top 30 program, not an m seven.
• 33:04
  Speaker A: Yeah, I totally agree.
• 33:05
  Speaker B: And, you know, a top 30 program can give them a great experience. I'm not discounting that. But there's no doubt that the higher the profile of program you attend, the more opportunity and access to opportunity they will have. So. Yeah, I'll just leave it at that.
• 33:22
  Speaker A: Yeah. And if you look at their list, there aren't really the only school on their list that might fit that bill is maybe Notre Dame, which is arguably 20 in the top end of that 20 group. So I think. Yeah, they don't seem to have those kinds of schools on their list that might. Yeah. So they need to rethink their strategy here and hopefully our advice has been helpful as they sort of figure out the path that they want to be on. But Alex, great. As always, I say this every week, but some really cool things to discuss this week, from the older PhD candidate to the overrepresented Indian. And then obviously this candidate is very unusual with their kind of being a current student. So there you have it. We've done it again. Alex. We'll meet next week and discuss some additional candidates because I see we've been getting a lot of new entries on applywire, so there's no shortage of people to talk about.
• 34:08
  Speaker B: Yeah, no. Brilliant. Very good. Stay safe, everyone. Take care.