Latest / The Eko Lens Podcast / Tactile Maps, Advocacy, and Accessibility
Transcript
- speaker-0: Welcome to the Echo Lens, the podcast where we view assistive technology through the eyes of Lyft Experience. I'm your host, Kenisha, and each week we explore how dignity, design, and innovation intersect with to empower blind and low vision communities. We're not just reviewing tech, we're reframing it. So this is a space for truth-telling, for honoring the voices that often go unheard, and for challenging the industry to do better. Whether you're a developer, a user, or someone who simply believes in equity, you're in the right place. This is the Echo Lens. Let's take a closer look. Today we have Tom Bazinski on the podcast. ⁓ Tom is super awesome. I came across Tom on LinkedIn when I saw that he had had some really cool posts about the work that he's doing. ⁓ Tom was born totally blind and hungry. And has dedicated the last 25 years to advancing accessibility with a focus on creating inclusive environments. He's worked with corporations, government agencies, and nonprofit organizations to develop innovative solutions that enhance access and opportunity to people with disabilities. So in the mid-1990s, he put together the first electronic library for blind people in Hungary. Which was a cornerstone of now a forty-five thousand volume library enhancing literacy and education in Hungary for blind and visually impaired people. So during high school his high school years with his classmates, he built his the first Hungarian Braille printer, which won an innovation award. And then from 2010, he built a career for entrepreneurship for blind and visually impaired people. At the Hadley School for the Blind. In the first three years, the center had served over 500 students. And in this capacity, he had the opportunity to promote Braille literacy as an essential tool for blind entrepreneurs. So from 2016, Tom built a IBM corporate accessibility training program, both on site and online that Became mandatory for all employees. And in 2021, he was invited to serve as the vice president of accessibility at Essential Accessibility. And today he works as a digital accessibility consultant. So he's a frequent speaker at conferences and areas of digital accessibility, museum accessibility, 3D printing, or accessible currency. And he currently leads a team of 3D designers who create 3D printed replicas of miniature buildings, tactile maps, and floor maps. And we're gonna get into that conversation about that today. So thanks, Tom, for coming on the podcast. We're so excited to have you. speaker-1: Thank you, Kenisha. Thank you for your invitation. It's speaker-0: Your story is so interesting. first I want to know your connection to the blind and low vision community. You were born totally blind. I'd love to ⁓ hear a little bit more about your background on that. speaker-1: So ⁓ originally I didn't know that there was a com ⁓ community or my parents didn't know. ⁓ what they knew is that they had a surprise, they had a blind kid, and they had no idea it was back in the seventies in Eastern Europe, how to get ⁓ education for that little kid. So they went exploring and talked with ⁓ doctors and teachers and then they finally found out that there was a ⁓ school for the blind where all blind kids went to there wasn't inclusive ⁓ education at that time. And so that's how I started. You know, I started in school and ⁓ got involved with the association ⁓ of the blind and visually impaired. And ⁓ yeah, ⁓ and and ⁓ the rest is history, you know, I that's where I started doing my ⁓ first ad advocacy work. speaker-0: Yeah, and and the advocacy work I'm seeing here that you talked about the the library, right? Can you tell us a little bit about that first electronic library? speaker-1: I I I don't really wanna wear that feather much today because ⁓ it was it was it was an interesting thing, but ⁓ many more people did many more things. Basically I had a little internship and during the summer at the Association for the Blind and then I pulled together a few electronic books, I put them on floppy discs and then cataloged it. And so it started. And then we gave it to ⁓ high school students to copy it so that they have some of the ⁓ mandatory reading for their classwork. Right. So and and then and then they grew it and and then I moved to the United States in two thousand. So I actually had nothing to do with that after that. ⁓ it's it's kind of ⁓ makes me feel good that I was there when it was born. But ⁓ speaker-0: Yeah, and you know, a gateway to the work that you're doing now, right? You said floppy disk. I'm sure there's some folks on here that are gonna be like, what's a floppy disk? But I remember what a floppy disk is. I was like, I remember what a floppy disk is. So tell us a little bit about your ⁓ like what you're into right now. Like what is the the background of your work in your in your you feel that your purpose is right now in this community. speaker-1: So it's it's not very far from what it was when I was a a kid or a teenager. Took a little sidetrack for twenty five years as as a ⁓ digital accessibility consultant, which I still am, but there was a ⁓ there was a very interesting story that that came from the fact that I really love traveling, aside from the covet days. I can't even think of any day when I don't have an upcoming trip in my life. ⁓ even even my ⁓ guide dog has been to ⁓ six six countries and ⁓ thirteen money museums. But so in any way, ⁓ when I travel I would like to understand ⁓ what the different buildings are like. Right. So and ⁓ Wherever possible I go to a gift shop and and check if they have a replica, but oftentimes they don't. So a few years ago I hired a 3D designer to make ⁓ some of the ⁓ more iconic buildings from Washington, DC for me. And then I found a company that was able to print it out in in 3D. I had a few buildings and was very happy with it, and then I showed it to friends. And I said, well, make some more. Make some more. Sure, let's make some more. Never run out of buildings. I even joined the ⁓ souvenir building collector society. There is such a thing actually. And ⁓ I joined them because ⁓ there are lots of ⁓ architects there, so they could tell me all about buildings and I could ask my questions. So I started building ⁓ making more buildings and then I got my 3D printer. So I can immediately print it out. I don't have to wait to have it printed and shipped. And then people were asking me to do other things. So I started making maps and ⁓ other replicas. And next thing I know, I was ⁓ making stuff for museums and educational institutions. And I started working with the Klobernuk ⁓ Center for the ⁓ blind and visual impaired from ⁓ Cincinnati, and they are in touch with ⁓ schools for the blind in East Africa. And so we created a map of Kenya. And now ⁓ they 3D print these maps in in Nairobi and send it out to ⁓ teachers ⁓ to teach ⁓ blind kids around East Africa. And then we made some buildings for them and ⁓ and they started working with ⁓ museums. So basically what what started out as a as a hobby project is basically ⁓ my business today. speaker-0: And they are so cool looking. Do you have anything? I know you said for for the folks who are watching the video formats of this, Tom is showing us the the replicas of some of the buildings that he has 3D printed. speaker-1: Here's a very interesting one. This is the ⁓ Cleveland Public Library. And when I was a little kid, I didn't really understand what a building is like. I thought it well it was a a cube and a triangle and the little ⁓ line. If the line was thin, that was the chimney, if it was thick, that was a tower to me that differentiated the house from the church. I had no idea. And then when we started making these buildings, ⁓ goodness, I I couldn't believe it. Like this is an oval shape building. This is so beautiful. And I had no idea that some buildings can like an oval shape. I had no idea that there's so many things on the top of the building. I'm showing the the top and there's like all kinds of machinery and little things that that are placed there. That I I thought that the roofs were flat. There's ⁓ another one. ⁓ it's also from the Cleveland. area somebody asked me ⁓ to make the Saint Ignatius High School. And ⁓ it's like an L shaped building. It's it's like very ornate, lots of windows, lots of detail. It almost looks like a a castle. It has all kinds of beautiful speaker-0: Yeah, it gives me Hogwarts vibes. speaker-1: Yeah, it's it's it's it's really nice. ⁓ I just made it for somebody who actually works there. And ⁓ yeah, you can you can feel the steps and then we put a a compass on the bottom of it. And I'm showing the the bottom of the building, which means that that's it shows you which way is north. But it also shows you that where the compass is, that's where the main entrance of the building is. ⁓ here speaker-0: Okay. speaker-1: Users could see ⁓ like a a door. It's almost like an archway. It's like a very ordinate door. So when we create descriptions of the building, I don't have to say the left or right or to the bit to the left, a little bit to the right, but I can say that this is where north is, where where the compass points to. This is where the main entrance is where the compass is, and that is the the south. west corner of the building. So now I can make much better, easier to understand references. So I can say that ⁓ the that there's a tower on the southwest. speaker-0: Yeah. And it's so interesting. Folks probably don't think about something as tactile as this that could be so important for the blind and low vision community. ⁓ as as you said, you're like, I loved buildings, I love how they're made, I wanted to learn more, and I wanted to be able to quote unquote see and take that in, right? To to your surroundings and the the the the fact that you can ⁓ like feel that is pretty pretty amazing. Yeah. speaker-1: And know what was interesting is that this project almost failed at some point where I thought that blind people wanted to collect these buildings. So here is the feedback that I got. They didn't want small buildings. They wanted large buildings so they can feel the details much better. But they had nowhere to put twenty, thirty, forty buildings as as much as I could produce. I I think I ⁓ have by now eighty different buildings. Right. But so that's that's my business. I find the space for it. But in an in an average household, there's nowhere to put ⁓ 80 of these buildings. So so then ⁓ you know, people weren't buying my buildings and I kept asking why. Well, they said, Well, if it's if it's too small so we could place it at home, it's not detailed enough. But if it's too big, we have nowhere to put it. And that's where people started telling me that. Yeah, but we want to go to a museum, for example, or school and touch it and understand what it looks like. We just don't want to take it home. And that's where the museum and school work started, because museums wanted to these buildings as big as possible. So that they can show it to their visually impaired clients. For that matter, it's it's kind of a ton of fun for for little kids as well. They like to touch things and and There's no reason why you couldn't touch a replica in a museum. You know, if it breaks, it breaks and we'll print another one. That's that's the least of of the difficulty of making this building, the printing part, the the hard part it's is the design. So that's that's how this project ended up being a museum project. speaker-0: And how was the design made? speaker-1: I have designers from all around the world who work with me. Currently I have ⁓ five di designers from five countries. I just ⁓ meet people on the internet and talk with and ⁓ talk with them until I I find who has good skill sets. And I teach them accessible three D design because once they are good three D designers that's the first step. But ⁓ there's certain things. I'll give you an example on this this tower. This tar is is is a touch thinner than I'm showing on the south ⁓ west ⁓ corner. It's a touch thinner than it should be according to its scale. But so here is the problem. If you make it exactly accurate, if I hand it to you and you need to touch it, it's just gonna break off. Right? So I need to, so to say, cheat a little bit and make it a little thicker. So that you can't really break if I really wanted to, I could break this part off, the the top of the tower, but ⁓ I really have to push it. You know, it has to be a purposeful move versus just accidentally ⁓ breaking it off when I'm trying to explore it. Especially in a museum, you don't want something that will break because it will break on the first day. So this this is what I call accessible 3D design. You need to understand That these objects are not decorations. These objects are going to be handled and how? How much detail do you add to it? You know, here are the the windows. I could I could add much more detail to to the windows, but then what happens is that it's already too detailed. There's you're not gonna be able to feel it anymore. So how much detail do you add? So it's it's visually attractive, yet It's informational for for the touch. There's a point where you have to say that we don't need more detail. Or you have to say that there's not enough detail here. The building is too big to make it at a at a at a small scale because everything is going to be so small that you won't even feel that the details. And and sometimes I say no to a building. Or not exactly no, but then I say Instead of making the whole building, what if we make a sample of it? Like a a a small small part of it. So I can make the whole building and show you, okay, this is what it's like. What this is the shape. But we don't really work out the details. But then for example, we make just the front door, because ⁓ sometimes front doors are really beautiful and ornate. And then and then we can go to town with it, you know, just just add as many details as possible and make it as big as possible and then we have something really interesting to touch. That's that's accessible through the design. speaker-0: Yeah, and that's something that never would have even crossed my mind even as a blind, legally blind person, until you talked about it, right? ⁓ and there's if you if you go to Tom's ⁓ LinkedIn, you'll see a picture on there and tell us a little bit about your new project that launched this week. speaker-1: Yes, ⁓ thank you for asking. ⁓ I'm showing it. This is a map. This is a map of a restroom. I I had lots of frustration going into restrooms, especially the less clean ones. And by the time I find everything I need, I don't want to be there anymore because you have to touch so many things. And I have to try to avoid it as much as possible, but sometimes it's not. So what we decided to do, what if Beside the ADA sign, I don't have an ADA sign here with me, but so imagine that if the map is here in my right hand, the ADA sign would be in my left hand. So they're side by side. If somebody goes to a a restroom and looks for the restroom sign to f figure out which is the the correct door, they couldn't miss it because this map would be there and you would feel that there is a door you can come in. It there's going to be a a ⁓ sink. You can even feel the tap. You can you can continue walking. There's the doors. There's a toilet. You can even feel that the toilet paper is on the left. So you don't have to touch the wall on the right just to find out that there's nothing. You can feel ⁓ where to flush it and use you feel that it's behind on the right. Again, you don't have to ⁓ Clean off the entire wall just to find where to flush it. And when there's no indication of where to flush it, that's not an accident. That means that's automatic. So don't even look for it. speaker-0: That is so cool. speaker-1: You minimize the touch so much that it's ⁓ I'm almost looking forward to ⁓ finding one of those restrooms and going there. You know? And because every every restaurant tends to be different and there's yeah sure there's there's similarities, but the reality is that you can't just assume that you walk in and it's gonna be like like this or like that. So every every map is custom made. speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓ my goodness. That's that's so amazing. Are you doing it for the museums and the schools, like your current partnerships or? speaker-1: I I hope to, yes. ⁓ it's it's brand new. ⁓ actually ⁓ we are making one for the Clovernoc School for the Blind. And I'm I'm just ⁓ negotiating a ⁓ a bunch of different ones right now. ⁓ it was it was released three days ago. speaker-0: Yeah, so amazing, Tom. So awesome. So turning the point a little bit to your personal experience. What was like one of your first experiences with with assistive technology? speaker-1: ⁓ it's I have to think about it. Assistive technology. I I guess it just depends what do you call assistive technology. I I started riding with a a Slaton stylus and ⁓ a braille rider when I was ⁓ six years old. That ⁓ we had a few maps. We didn't have too much in terms of technology. We had an abacus and yeah, I think I think that was that was all. And then And then everything else that that we had, we had to make it from, you know, whatever we had around the house or around the school. And then in my teenage years, ⁓ we started ⁓ getting those ⁓ talking computers. I mean they were available before, but ⁓ not not for everybody, you know, a school had one and and that was it. ⁓ And then they became more affordable. I I got one of those computers. as a as a kid so I could ⁓ learn programming. speaker-0: That's so great. And now now do you use ⁓ some of the tools like fusion and and things like that on your on your current devices? speaker-1: I I have everything. ⁓ I I I I don't wanna show my office because it's ⁓ but it looks like Best Buy, you know, if if something is assistive technology and has a price tag on it, I have it. speaker-0: My gosh, you don't have to do that. ⁓ I love that. So speaker-1: Well it's part of part of my work, right? So I I have to. That's what I like to tell myself. ⁓ I have to have everything, right? But it's really helping me a lot. speaker-0: Yeah, you get to test out different things and also like you said, it gives you ideas for some of this new stuff that you're developing too, which is really awesome. speaker-1: So speaker-0: What is one assistive tool that is like something that you need every day that you love? speaker-1: It's it's my note taker. And ⁓ it's it's a braille display with a keyboard. and it's in a ⁓ like a case, it's almost like a laptop case with a with a shoulder strap. And where that's important is that the ⁓ I believe the case is even more useful than the note taker. And the reason being is that I feel I am so much more productive. speaker-0: Okay. speaker-1: Since I have a note taker that basically is around my neck and shoulder and rests on my belly. And every time I go to a conference, I go to a meeting, a networking event, or or or do an exhibit. I immediately take notes on that. And and I became so much more productive where I don't have to find a place to sit down and where I'm gonna put my slate and stylus. is it's just just amazing me how many more contacts I'm able to make and and how much more information I can put down just by having a device and having a case. speaker-0: Yeah, I've I've seen a couple of those recently. I ⁓ very early in the brow stage myself, I'm trying to just learn, you know, the basics, like the bathroom stuff and the elevator stuff right now, right? The necessities. But that that does sound really cool. I've seen I've seen a couple of them. So thinking about the stuff that you're building and the connections with the museums and education. what is something that you hope to see for this next generation of a system technology or your products? speaker-1: Well, ⁓ let's let's stay with the ⁓ three D stuff because I think there's something majorly missing and and that is standardization. ⁓ just like in in ⁓ web technologies or di digital accessibility, now we have the web content accessibility guidelines. We had it for probably almost thirty years now. And that helped us standardize what is accessible. And and now we can argue how good it is or not or how much more it needs. Apparently it needs more because it's still being developed, right? But at least we have a common concept that we can use globally that okay, if you do this, 10 CDR is going to be pretty accessible if you put it up on the web. Now with 3D technologies, we don't necessarily have standards or good standards. There are ⁓ ⁓ some guidelines built in in ⁓ australia. But ⁓ we need more. And the reason why I'm saying it is because if there's no standardization, then anybody can make maps in any way they want to, including me. And then people have to learn how to read those maps. Whereas if we had good standards, I could make a map, you could make a map and and I and and people would equally know how to read that well. And there's lots of opportunities. Like here's a floor map, for example, that I'm I'm holding. On a on a 2D map, you would just kind of create ⁓ tactile signs, it's upside down. Textile tactile signs and explain, okay, this is what it's gonna mean. So if it's a little rough then it means stairs. If it's ⁓ lines it means walls or doors Now here on this map that I'm holding up, this is the floor plan of a hotel. Where you see the or feel the rooms, you can tell where the doors are. And because they open, now you can tell ⁓ where the stairs are because they look like stairs. You can tell where the front desk is because it kind of feels like a desk. So where this is interesting is that I don't have to explain how to read these things to you. Because you'll figure it out. So for example, here's a box, right? It's a box with a little opening. You know it's inside a building. There's a letter, braille letter E on top. You know, if you didn't guess it, it's an elevator. But I only have to tell you once. You don't have to because you'll remember it. Right? And but for the most part, we're trying to make signs that are not speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: I don't even have to tell you once. But where this is important is that it will only make sense if everybody is using the same ⁓ signs. speaker-0: Yeah. You know what? When you showed that, I'm thinking of you know, ⁓ at hotels they have those emergency exit signs in the room, right? And how is someone supposed to know, like, that is that is blind, right? Like this is the route that I would take for an emergency exit. And this would be so helpful for those accessible rooms to be able to have, you know, something in there to to show the tactality of okay, this is how I get out if needed. speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely. That would that would be extremely important. But then then it it needs to be very understandable and findable. And I have I need to have expectations just like the ADA sign at the restroom door that I know where I will find it. Because the hardest part about tactile maps is that I have to tell people that that it's there. Right? So that's that's where I thought ⁓ the restroom map makes sense, but right beside the ADA sign because they'll find it. But if I have a map for a particular building, if somebody doesn't tell me at the front desk that hey, it's posted by the door or here here you go, yeah, I would never think about it. Right. So there comes another type of assistive technology like ⁓ a beacon based navigation system where they place different beacons around the ⁓ room or building like like the right here ⁓ company does does one of the the best ones. And then you download an app and and your phone can sense where the beacons are. It can give you directions and read the information that's that's inserted into this beacon. Right. So now if you walk into a a building you still have to know that it's set up for that, but at least your app may tell you. So then the app could tell you, okay, now we have indoor navigation. Then the app could tell you, and by the way, here you can find find tactile maps. And that's one way of guiding people to it. And partly that's what I see as a problem with accessibility in general. I go to a ton of museums where I have no idea if there's anything to touch or anything accessible. And not because they don't have it, but because they don't talk about it. So I would never know. I I always tell organizations that if you make something accessible, brag about it. Put it on your website. Put it in your marketing materials. Not in the accessibility statement right by the privacy policy in your footer. Nobody reads that. Put it front and center. Put it in your newsletters. Put it in your main menu. Tell people that, hey, if you come here, you're gonna have an accessible experience. speaker-0: That's so important. ⁓ my goodness. I have learned so much from you, Tom. Like your work is super great. ⁓ the innovation of what you're doing is so top notch. Like I'm excited to see going forward. I'm actually on a board for a museum, ⁓ and and we're assessing the accessibility. right now of that museum for blind and low vision folks and I was like I'm connecting ⁓ with Tom because like what like before meeting you, this is something that I wouldn't even really thought about because it's not prominent like it should be in the community. speaker-1: You know, I I I hated museums until I ⁓ I was ⁓ an adult because it was always about the don't touch. And then after a while I said, it doesn't have to be that way. What if we turn it around? So I I specifically went to those museums where there was absolutely nothing to touch. And that was the money museums. But instead of ⁓ feeling sorry for myself that there's nothing to touch. I wrote to them in advance and I said, Look, I'm a blind person, I'm a coin collector, and I'll be in town. I wonder, is there anything you could show me that that would be okay to touch? And ⁓ goodness, the amount of amazing programs they put together. I think I've been to almost like twenty money museums and nobody nobody ever said No to that. And they took it up as a challenge and showed me I I got to touch better things than people can see in these some of these museums because they brought everything out for me that wasn't even on display. So do I do I take advantage of my blindness? I don't know. I I feel that in in a sense we all enjoy that. You know, I I wasn't looking for a special treatment, but I had to understand that if I walk in there I'm not gonna have anything there. speaker-0: That's not taking advantage though. I hope. Yeah. No, it's not. It's a equity. It's a equity space. You know? speaker-1: Well Yeah. And since then I'm finding that more and more museums are actually making their coin collections accessible. speaker-0: Good. Yeah, that's an equity feat. If if someone needs something that is accessible to them, we're not gonna give everyone the same thing. We're gonna make sure that we do it specifically for that person. speaker-1: Yeah, and you kinda have to. There's there's different needs. You know, you just look at the needs of kids or adults. You can't always put the same program together and ⁓ expect that every age group will enjoy it the same way. speaker-0: Absolutely. Mm. Well, Tom, thank you so much for being here today. It was a pleasure to talk to you. speaker-1: Well thank you for for the ⁓ invitation. I I really appreciate it. speaker-0: Absolutely. So thanks for joining us on the Echo Lens, where we view assistive tech through the eyes of lived experience. If today's conversation sparks something in you, you can share it, rate it, and keep the dialogue going. To learn more about the beautiful project or to support our work, visit Echovision Foundation.org. Until next time, stay curious, stay connected, and keep seeing with love. Bye.