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#7: The Truth About Card Addiction | Sports Card Live · Collectors MD Features

• 0:00
  you know actually why don't we do this um let's
• 0:04
  bring Alyx on because this is his specialty and
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  uh i'd be it'll be great to have him join the
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  conversation mike you're free you're welcome
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  to stick around you know uh for as long really
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  uh until we end this this Collectors MD addiction
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  gambling discussion but let's bring on Alyx you
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  ready to come on give me a thumbs up there it
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  is Alyx, welcome to Sports Cards Live. How are
• 0:31
  you? Hey, Jeremy. Thanks for having me. You're
• 0:33
  welcome. Please meet Joe and Mike if you haven't
• 0:37
  yet. Joe, Mike, great to meet you both. What's
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  up, Alyx? Hope you guys had a great Fourth. Thank
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  you. Love what you're doing. Thank you from Canada.
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  And a good Canada Day up here. So, you know,
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  let's continue the discussion. And I do want
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  to just a couple of comments. that, well, first
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  of all, Mookie Chilson, what's up, Mookie, says,
• 1:01
  getting out of bed in the morning is a gamble,
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  but so is going to bed at night. You know, people,
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  you don't always wake up. So yes, crossing the
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  street is a gamble. Everything is often a gamble
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  in life. But Mike, to Mike again, I want to ask,
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  there's been a lot of talk about this lately,
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  Mike. I've done some talking about it myself
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  on Instagram and on X. Alyx has been doing a
• 1:27
  bit of the podcast circuit lately and Collectors MD
• 1:30
  has really caught people's attention. Lots of
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  talk about sports card addiction. Mike, was that
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  also a part of what kind of sparked you to do
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  your 11 ways that we gamble in the hobby video?
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  No. So I do videos occasionally on sports card
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  addiction. I did one. A couple of months ago,
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  and I actually featured Collectors MD in the video
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  where I talked about, hey, there is now health.
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  Because when I did it a couple of years ago,
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  a video on sports card addiction, there wasn't
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  a sports card dedicated help for it. But there
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  was a Reddit post a month or two ago where a
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  woman posted about her husband. He had lost $300
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  ,000 of their money, and they were $100 ,000
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  in debt because of it. And so I just talked through
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  that. talked about Collectors MD being there
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  and every time i do it i get a lot of comments
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  from people or private emails or dms from people
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  saying i'm a mess i need help and now i actually
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  have a good place to send people appreciate that
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  mike it's true you know it's it's something that
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  and i haven't done this yet but i want to i want
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  to i want to work into all of my sports cards
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  live episodes sort of like at the beginning or
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  at some point, just a quick spiel or a quick
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  announcement, you know, that if you are having
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  problems, if you find yourself running into financial
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  relationship issues because you can't stop spending
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  money, and maybe, Alyx, I'll get you to coach
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  me on how to word this. Maybe you're the best.
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  Maybe you can help me word it. And just make
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  that announcement because... you know you go
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  into you go into any casino and there are warnings
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  and and helplines all over the place we don't
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  see that in the hobby whether we're in the online
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  casinos the Whatnots the Fanatics Lives uh eBay
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  Live Loupe whatever other ones there are we don't
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  see these at least i don't think we see them
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  there we don't see them at the lcs when you're
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  buying wax and I don't want to say perhaps we
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  should because we're not regulated. I think a
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  lot of people think we should. And I mean, it
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  would be nice if we had that, but we're not there
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  yet. Mike, what do you think of that? Do you
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  think that we should be there? Do you think that
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  the hobby has grown with the price of wax now
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  that we should be there? Probably. I hate to
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  think about. regulation coming into the hobby,
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  but I also don't know that it would impact me
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  in any way. But the hobby has gotten so big and
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  there's really, I mean, the hobby is this huge
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  umbrella or tent. And there are some portions
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  of the hobby that probably should be regulated.
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  You can get, anybody can get on Fanatics and
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  sell. You've got 10 -year -old kids selling and
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  there's nothing that's controlling what they're
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  doing. or if they are scamming anybody you don't
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  know it's uh it's it's difficult out there for
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  a new consumer and i always get comments well
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  new consumers should do the research first but
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  shouldn't we make it easy for them to understand
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  what they're getting themselves into yeah i mean
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  you you put on a movie and you know you're gonna
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  see the explicit language sexual drug references
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  you know you get that before the movie starts
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  to protect people to protect youth why don't
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  we have that when you whenever a break starts
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  online or before they start or when you go to
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  check out for your spot you want you know you
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  might lose all your money whatever it might be
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  Alyx let's go to you what do you think of this
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  and and bring us up to speed on your thoughts
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  on these two points we've talked about so far
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  yeah Jeremy first of all thank you so much for
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  giving Collectors MD this platform in this stage
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  i exactly I do not accept a thank you. This is
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  my duty. It's all of our duty. So I appreciate
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  it. I appreciate it, Alyx, but please don't thank
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  me. You guys hit the nail on the head. I mean,
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  we're talking about just very, very honest and
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  high level awareness. That's all it is. You talked
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  about creating some sort of general messaging
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  before you. go live or right before you jump
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  into the topic of discussions. That's all we
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  need. And we need it across the board. We need
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  to see it on the platforms. We need to see it
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  on social media. Just a layer of support, a layer
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  of awareness. If you or you know somebody who
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  has a problem, which we're seeing more and more
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  of in this hobby, there's a place for you. You
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  do not have to feel alone. You don't have to
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  feel a sense of isolation. Collectors MD is here
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  to support you. no matter what you're going through
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  in your hobby and your collecting journey. That's
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  all it is. And we can get into it, but a lot
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  of the higher powers, the platforms, the breakers,
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  the manufacturers, they have looked the other
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  way for far too long. And as the hobby, as collecting,
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  continues to head in this direction that just
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  shares so many synergies with gambling and gambling
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  -like mechanics. i mean it's just so glaring
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  that change and reform needs to happen and it
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  needs to happen fast because like you said mike
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  i mean we have 10 year old kids that have access
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  now and there's no sense of education there's
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  no sense of accountability where are the parents
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  you know like we we just we need to look out
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  for not just the hobby but the people in the
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  hobby especially the next generation so that's
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  what we're doing with Collectors MD and um you
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  know again i'm just really grateful that uh people
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  are um you know being so receptive and positive
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  and helping spread such an important message
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  because this message is way bigger than me and
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  frankly it's bigger than Collectors MD it's it's
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  something that um has been the missing link in
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  this space for far too long so Alyx, in addition
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  to doing what we can as a community to save lives,
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  save marriages, save houses, save families, we
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  are also trying to protect the future of the
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  hobby at the same time, which is, I don't want
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  to say which one's more important. The hobby
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  is an important industry. It's an important lifestyle
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  for so many of us. But kids with broken up...
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  families because of sports card gambling addiction
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  sports card addiction uh we want to save all
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  that but like orlando here says we need to keep
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  new collectors in the hobby not getting in a
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  hole and leaving it all together i think that's
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  an important part of it mike you did your video
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  were you thinking about that at all think about
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  that a lot um when new when new people come into
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  the hobby first of all it is already confusing
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  enough But they assume that they need to join
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  in on breaks and they need to be buying expensive
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  wax. And there's nothing that's preventing this,
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  nothing that's educating them about those things.
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  And people, it is straight up gambling, like
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  I said, and not low risk gambling. You can buy
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  hobby boxes for hundreds, thousands of dollars.
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  And it's gotten to the point, it's very easy
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  to say, well, you're not opening wax for the
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  value. which for some of us should be the case,
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  but the prices have gotten so outrageous that
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  you feel the need to get value back. If you're
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  opening a $500 box, which I've never done, by
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  the way, you want to get a significant card or
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  more in there. And if you don't, you just continue
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  chasing and chasing and chasing, and eventually
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  you end up in debt. A lot of people do. And that's
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  very dangerous for a person, for a family. For
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  life. You know, you mentioned a $500 box. Quick
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  story about some of my personal firsthand experience
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  going back to 2008. I predict the cup had come
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  out. I went to a local LCS, bought a tin, a box,
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  a pack, whatever for, you know, $600. Opened
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  it. Was extremely disappointed. Felt like I just
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  wasted $600. What did I do? I bought another
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  one. I didn't leave the store. I bought another
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  one. Opened it. Felt like I got, felt like I
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  just flushed $600 down the toilet. Maybe I got
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  80 bucks worth of value back, but nothing I wanted
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  for my PC. So extra, you know, even double, double
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  bad. What did I do? Opened another one. I did
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  it until I opened up all six boxes from the case
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  thinking eventually I'll get the case hit. Each
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  box was a gamble. This was before Whatnot and
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  Fanatics Live and the online. breaking casinos
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  with all the glitz and glamour and the high pressure
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  sales tactics and all that. And I drove home
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  literally feeling like I just blew through almost
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  $5 ,000 or four grand, whatever it was. And I
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  was like depressed. I felt terrible. I felt embarrassed.
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  I felt shame. I felt horrible. Now let's go back
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  to when I'm 12 years old. Here's another story.
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  12 years old, 1984. Opeche hockey sticker albums.
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  You know, remember the albums you used to collect
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  in the 80s if you're old enough to remember?
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  I'm down to needing my very last sticker to complete
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  the whole set so that I could go to school the
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  next day and show all my friends I completed
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  the album. Like, that was the goal. Every week,
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  I'd get $2 a week allowance. I would go to the
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  corner drugstore and I would, you know, drugstore.
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  You know, they sold, I don't know if you have
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  drugstores down in the U .S. or not, but anyway,
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  went to the corner store. And I would buy eight
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  packs of these stickers for $2. And I remember
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  sitting there. I couldn't even get home first.
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  I would open them at the cash register, at the
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  counter, hoping to get that Ken Morrow. He won
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  four cups with the Islanders. Hoping to get the
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  Ken Morrow, a common sticker, to put in my book.
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  And I'd spend my whole $2 allowance. And I'd
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  walk home feeling like I just wasted my allowance.
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  And I waited all week, did my chores to get,
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  and I didn't get it. i didn't care if there was
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  a gretzky in there or another great player i
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  wanted that one card and i walked home every
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  week it was i never actually never got it from
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  opening packs probably did this for a month and
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  a half six weeks in a row something like that
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  it's a long time ago but every week i would walk
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  home feeling like i just wasted my two dollar
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  a week allowance then you know 2008 i'm doing
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  it for 600 bucks a pack instead of 25 cents so
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  you know there's been gambling in the hobby,
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  even when you didn't care about hits, you wanted
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  to get that last card for your set. And I would
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  gamble every week to get it. What I ended up
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  doing, went to the school one day and I had all
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  my traders, a stack of them. One kid was willing
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  to take the Ken Morrow and peel it out of his
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  album, give it to me so I could stick it in mine.
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  And I gave him all my traders for the one card.
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  That's what I had to end up doing. But I spent
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  weeks and weeks, $2 a week after $2 a week getting
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  them. A couple of stories there for myself. Alyx,
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  you are hosting these, you're having these meetings
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  with the members of, I'm calling them members
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  of Collectors MD. Are you hearing stories like
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  this week after week? And maybe you have one
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  or two that you can share with us, of course,
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  without violating anybody's privacy. Yeah, these
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  stories are, we're seeing so much going on, I
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  mean, across the board. These weekly support
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  meetings are intended to offer a space where
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  collectors can talk openly about the emotional,
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  financial and mental weight that can come with
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  hobby and with collecting. It's not necessarily
• 13:45
  therapy, but it's real support from people who
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  get it. So we have created a community that has,
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  again, just been incredibly supportive. And each
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  week we meet, it's Wednesday night, that probably
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  is going to shift. most likely going to pivot
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  to a couple of times a week to sort of cater
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  or accommodate different types of collectors
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  and different types of addiction. But we are
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  seeing stories. And I think the biggest issue
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  is that people have been afraid. People have
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  been scared to share their stories either publicly
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  or maybe even privately with their friends, with
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  their loved ones, with their family members,
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  with... other hobbyists and so again we are providing
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  a sense of uh support and comfort so that people
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  realize that they're not alone and isolated and
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  so the types of stories we're seeing um you know
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  are frankly really really scared uh there's one
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  individual who has gotten in so incredibly deep
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  that you know in order to sort of scratch that
• 14:52
  itch he needs to spend upwards of ten twenty
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  thousand dollars a night on Whatnot and uh he
• 14:57
  got in so deep so far over his own head where
• 15:01
  you know he was using any and all means in order
• 15:07
  to you know scratch that itch and that you know
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  meant whether it didn't matter if it was you
• 15:14
  know his own credit card wife's credit card his
• 15:17
  company credit card and he got to a point where
• 15:19
  you know he was millions of dollars in the hole
• 15:22
  and now he's you know on the other side of that
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  just digging himself out trying to find a sense
• 15:29
  of relief and he's going through it on a number
• 15:32
  of different levels, obviously with his family,
• 15:34
  from a legal standpoint, with his former employer.
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  I mean, there's a lot of things going on. And
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  again, there's so much of this happening behind
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  closed doors that people don't realize because
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  again, most people keep these sort of things
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  to themselves because perhaps they're ashamed.
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  They're ashamed to admit, maybe not just to other
• 15:54
  people, but to themselves that they have a true
• 15:56
  problem. that they've fallen victim to compulsion.
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  And so, you know, that's one story. Other story,
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  similar sort of vein where one of the most well
• 16:12
  -known collectors in the hobby, and again, of
• 16:14
  course, we protect our members at all costs.
• 16:18
  Everything is completely safe and confidential.
• 16:20
  But this individual is very well -known in the
• 16:22
  hobby. The three of you would most likely know
• 16:24
  who this person is. he reached out to me a couple
• 16:27
  months ago and was like i can't believe i came
• 16:30
  across this you know this support group this
• 16:32
  is exactly what i needed he was like you know
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  i look in the mirror and i'm disgusted with the
• 16:40
  amount of money that i've spent and that i throw
• 16:42
  to these breakers and these live streams these
• 16:44
  live platforms but there's a certain level of
• 16:46
  expectation not just from those those people
• 16:49
  that he spends money with but the whole community
• 16:52
  the hobby itself people expect this guy to show
• 16:55
  up every night and put on a show buy everything
• 16:58
  on the floor join every break buy all the you
• 17:01
  know five ten thousand dollar spots uh for the
• 17:04
  the wnba rookie royalty product that just came
• 17:08
  out i mean we're seeing this so much more and
• 17:12
  more and and we just you know again we need to
• 17:15
  to be there for one another we need to look out
• 17:17
  for one another uh and you know there just needs
• 17:20
  to be a space where people can come to to lean
• 17:23
  on when they're really in the thick of it yeah
• 17:26
  yeah well said and and you know i think what
• 17:29
  what you're doing is you're giving people a place
• 17:32
  to come and ears to listen to them and the support
• 17:36
  i think that's number one right talking it through
• 17:38
  knowing that you're not alone is huge and i love
• 17:41
  what you're doing with Collectors MD and uh uh
• 17:44
  so thank you you know for what you're doing of
• 17:47
  course Alyx i'm sure you're lots of thanks for
• 17:49
  you in the chat and we'll give you more i want
• 17:51
  to go to Joe for a moment because i was chatting
• 17:53
  with Joe and i i said you know i remember Joe
• 17:56
  a couple i don't know when it was maybe a couple
• 17:59
  of years ago you know you you'd send me a text
• 18:01
  message you're like yeah i just bought a first
• 18:04
  off the line you know like i don't i don't know
• 18:06
  what what were you going through when you were
• 18:09
  doing some of that i'm not like i don't think
• 18:10
  you have an addiction problem in terms of wax
• 18:14
  Joe but what is your experience in terms of having
• 18:17
  negative feelings about maybe wasting money feeling
• 18:22
  like i don't know that you necessarily have to
• 18:25
  have an addiction to in order to kind of have
• 18:30
  shame i don't know Alyx if that makes sense but
• 18:32
  like i don't feel like i'm i'm i was addicted
• 18:35
  to it but i certainly had had moments of feeling
• 18:37
  shame Joe what are some of your experiences with
• 18:40
  that Yeah, well, I didn't. I'm risk averse by
• 18:46
  nature and frugal. So I didn't really ever open
• 18:50
  any wax until maybe like 2019, 2020, when I actually
• 18:54
  pulled a couple like zions and jaws out of some
• 18:58
  target blasters and was like, whoa, that was
• 19:01
  pretty fun. And so you get that dopamine hit.
• 19:03
  Right. And then you're sort of, you know, you
• 19:06
  crave a little more. And so I started going on
• 19:09
  the panini. websites and looking for the uh the
• 19:13
  dutch uh auctions and and doing what i could
• 19:16
  to um you know kind of figure out what the best
• 19:20
  price point might be for say prism football i
• 19:23
  think i got four first off the line prism football
• 19:26
  boxes in 2020 which was the burrow the herbert
• 19:31
  year hertz um and and and maybe one of the worst
• 19:36
  things that could happen happened i hit a justin
• 19:39
  herbert blue ice um which was awesome um but
• 19:43
  the the drawback of that was i started to think
• 19:46
  okay wow roi is here in these boxes and so um
• 19:51
  from about 2020 to maybe 2022 um i did throw
• 19:57
  some money in all various um you know products
• 20:01
  from from megas and blasters online on eBay to
• 20:06
  you know more panini releases and yeah over time
• 20:10
  you know the house wins and like mike was saying
• 20:13
  earlier um the the prices jumped right around
• 20:17
  that time uh the the manufacturers sort of seized
• 20:21
  the moment of the frenzy that was happening and
• 20:25
  really amplified the prices to a point where
• 20:28
  it was it became um less and less a a even a
• 20:32
  reasonable gamble You factor in breakers on top
• 20:35
  of that, and I've never done a break, but that's
• 20:38
  where you get this exorbitant disconnect between
• 20:42
  playing the game, if you will, and then feeling
• 20:47
  pretty shoddy afterwards. So yeah, Jaylee, I
• 20:51
  think you know me. I agonize over every purchase
• 20:55
  and every hobby dollar that I deploy because
• 20:59
  I'm thinking about what else I can get. This
• 21:01
  might amount to... know a cool steph curry card
• 21:04
  or a cool standard caramel you know sam crawford
• 21:08
  or something and when i see those you know those
• 21:11
  hobby dollars um just you know vanishing between
• 21:13
  my fingers i i i felt pretty bad and you know
• 21:17
  i think it's probably been now you know two or
• 21:20
  three years um but one thing i'd like to maybe
• 21:23
  hear from Alyx and and all all the panel on is
• 21:27
  um eBay addiction, which I think you can manage
• 21:34
  maybe the financial output a little bit better,
• 21:37
  but the compulsivity and a similar perhaps dopamine
• 21:42
  rush when you're bidding in live time on a card.
• 21:46
  I'm curious, Alyx, if you work with clients even
• 21:50
  outside of the breaking category and maybe even
• 21:53
  more just in their... overall relationship to
• 21:56
  the hobby and and the amount of time right the
• 21:59
  time and energy and you know checking your watch
• 22:02
  list at two in the morning with your wife next
• 22:05
  to you and just like what am i what am i doing
• 22:07
  here so i'd be curious what you guys think about
• 22:10
  that component it's a good call out Joe uh i
• 22:14
  mean i suffer from eBay app addiction for sure
• 22:18
  you know the little blue light comes on and i
• 22:20
  have to clear them i have to clear them Regardless
• 22:23
  of what I'm doing, if I don't clear them, it's
• 22:27
  not good. It's not good. But let's hear from
• 22:30
  the other guys. Mike, what about you? Do you
• 22:32
  have that issue? Absolutely. eBay is a bad addiction.
• 22:38
  I had to move to a point a couple of years ago
• 22:40
  where I would not bid on anything on eBay unless
• 22:44
  I was doing a snipe bid through Gixxon at the
• 22:47
  end. Because what would happen was I would get
• 22:49
  fixated on winning the item. And I would end
• 22:52
  up just continuing to bid at the very end and
• 22:56
  would way overspend because I had to win it.
• 23:00
  And then afterwards, I would have spent $150
• 23:03
  on a card that I could have bought for $110 or
• 23:07
  whatever. And there's obviously somebody else
• 23:09
  on the other end of that with the same exact
• 23:11
  problem. And so now I just say, okay, I'm going
• 23:14
  to put a max bid in of $110, do that through
• 23:17
  Gixxon, which allows you to bid. before it's
• 23:21
  done, but you never see it. You're not part of
• 23:23
  it. You can put it in at any point and it makes
• 23:27
  it easier and it helps you control those urges.
• 23:31
  And I saw somebody has talked about cards can't
• 23:35
  be the only addiction. It's absolutely right.
• 23:37
  There's obviously something in you that becomes
• 23:40
  addicted to cards or whatever it is, buying on
• 23:45
  eBay, opening wax, whatever. I don't know. Yeah,
• 23:51
  fair comments for sure, Mike. And I think you've
• 23:55
  come up with somewhat a bit of a solve for yourself
• 23:57
  there. So that's good self -awareness and good
• 24:00
  execution. Now, Alyx, in your groups for yourself
• 24:03
  even, are you running into people with, nevermind
• 24:07
  breaking addiction, group breaks or personal
• 24:09
  breaks at the LCS, whatever it might be, are
• 24:11
  you running into people who are addicted to just
• 24:15
  buying singles at card shows, on eBay, wherever
• 24:18
  it may be, auction houses? Absolutely. I want
• 24:22
  to take a step back and bring up sort of a point
• 24:26
  you made earlier where gambling has been a part
• 24:28
  of the hobby. It's always had a presence since
• 24:32
  the very beginning, right? Whether it was buying
• 24:34
  packs and hoping to pull your favorite player,
• 24:36
  just chasing the big hit in the hobby box, that
• 24:38
  element of risk and reward is not new. But what's
• 24:42
  changed and what's made it more dangerous is
• 24:44
  this 24 -7 access, right? The shift. And so platforms
• 24:48
  like eBay and like these live stream breaking
• 24:52
  apps, they've taken something that used to be
• 24:54
  sort of occasional and turned it into something
• 24:57
  constant. So now you can chase auctions. You
• 25:00
  can enter breaks. You can place bids. You can
• 25:02
  rip packs all day, every day. There's no cool
• 25:04
  -off period. There's no built -in boundaries.
• 25:06
  And the dopamine loop. never ends all of these
• 25:09
  different platforms um or sort of uh different
• 25:13
  ways you can purchase cards whether it be buying
• 25:17
  singles or joining a break they all sort of um
• 25:20
  gravitate around the same dopamine centers in
• 25:24
  your brain right it's all about that dopamine
• 25:26
  rush getting that chase or chasing after something
• 25:30
  having something to look forward to receiving
• 25:32
  in the mail uh you're and you're always just
• 25:35
  one click away from that next rush so with eBay
• 25:38
  specifically it's the endless scroll right it's
• 25:41
  the thrill of the snipe the hunt for that that
• 25:43
  you know great deal with breaking it's live action
• 25:47
  the communal hype the illusion that you're next
• 25:50
  it's it's all gambling but now it's just dressed
• 25:52
  up as entertainment collecting and even investing
• 25:55
  i mean i saw people in the comments asking if
• 25:58
  uh stashing sealed wax is considered gambling
• 26:01
  again it all just feeds into the same dopamine
• 26:05
  centers in our in our brains and so the truth
• 26:08
  here is is most of us you know didn't see that
• 26:10
  shift happen it felt like evolution but what
• 26:13
  it really did was it amplified the compulsion
• 26:15
  that we talked about earlier with just going
• 26:18
  to your local store and buying a box of cards
• 26:21
  or a pack, it amplified that exponentially. And
• 26:25
  we're not chasing cards anymore. We're chasing
• 26:27
  feelings. And we're doing it on platforms designed
• 26:30
  to keep us hooked. They're all designed the same
• 26:33
  way. And I just want to say, it's not about shame.
• 26:37
  it's not about like putting anybody down or telling
• 26:39
  somebody they have a problem or that they're
• 26:41
  an addict it's just about creating awareness
• 26:43
  because once you see it for what it really is
• 26:45
  you can start to take back some of that control
• 26:47
  yeah the constant uh availability in your pocket
• 26:51
  the uh the lack of friction you know you don't
• 26:55
  have to get in the car and drive you don't even
• 26:57
  have to go to the website of a of a card seller,
• 27:01
  buy it and wait a couple days for the box to
• 27:03
  arrive, whether it's like a Tops Now or a Panini
• 27:07
  Instant or some reverse Dutch auction on Panini
• 27:10
  that you might buy from. There's no way. It's
• 27:15
  right there. It's very easy to just overspend,
• 27:21
  I suppose, if you don't have self -control. But
• 27:25
  this is not exclusive to the hobby. And like
• 27:31
  porn addiction is a real thing. You know, I don't
• 27:36
  know what you, what people, Playboy magazine,
• 27:38
  maybe was it, was it before you, the, you know,
• 27:41
  maybe there was some secret way to get VHS tapes
• 27:44
  of it. Now it's, it's on your phone. Like everything
• 27:47
  is easier now that we have our phones. I'm just
• 27:50
  saying it's that lack of that, that lack of friction
• 27:53
  makes anything that you, that is literally something.
• 28:00
  that you don't actually have to have in hand
• 28:02
  right away makes it that much quicker, right?
• 28:04
  You can just get it so much easier. So it's,
• 28:07
  again, it's not, this is the way the world is
• 28:09
  going. And I saw a comment myself and there's
• 28:13
  a couple, I think it's Stanley Gordon. I just
• 28:17
  want to read a couple of Stanley Gordon's comments
• 28:19
  here, you guys, because I see both sides of this,
• 28:23
  but I want to, so he says here, don't mean to
• 28:25
  be harsh. but a little self -discipline goes
• 28:28
  a long way. I highly doubt buying into breaks
• 28:31
  is the individual's only gambling addiction.
• 28:34
  Okay, maybe, maybe not, but it doesn't mean that
• 28:39
  people can't help, I suppose. He also says, I
• 28:44
  just don't feel it's the hobby's job to solve
• 28:47
  the issue of addiction. Every product can be
• 28:49
  consumed in an unhealthy way. And by every product,
• 28:51
  I don't think he means every card product. He
• 28:54
  means any product. From milk to fancy watches
• 28:57
  sort of thing. It's an interchangeable topic
• 29:00
  that's beaten to death, he says. And then he
• 29:02
  said, it's not the card's fault. The individual
• 29:05
  needs to look inward. Now, I'm just going to
• 29:08
  say one thing to all this, which is it doesn't
• 29:12
  sound to me like Stanley Gordon has ever had
• 29:14
  somebody close to him suffer from addiction.
• 29:16
  Because I have. I have to the extreme, extreme,
• 29:21
  extreme, extremist of situations. And and I went
• 29:26
  through a phase of my life where I had some similar
• 29:30
  sort of thoughts in my head to what Stanley Gordon
• 29:33
  has and he's sharing here with us. And it wasn't
• 29:37
  until it hit home that I started to realize that
• 29:42
  I was kind of being very limited in my view and
• 29:47
  unempathetic and just not. the way i want it
• 29:54
  to continue to be so uh but Alyx i know that
• 29:58
  this is something that's close to you and you'll
• 30:00
  probably do a better job of articulating kind
• 30:02
  of your response of that sort of outlook than
• 30:06
  maybe i have because i can get really emotional
• 30:08
  about this very quickly so i'm going to turn
• 30:11
  it over to you please yeah i mean Jeremy you
• 30:13
  brought up such a great point um i think a lot
• 30:15
  of people just don't necessarily realizing it's
• 30:18
  not Stanley's fault. It's not their fault that
• 30:20
  they don't understand, you know, the full scope
• 30:23
  of addiction and what addiction can do to an
• 30:26
  individual. And if you haven't had somebody close
• 30:29
  to you experience addiction, you haven't seen
• 30:32
  the pain, the suffering, the challenges that
• 30:36
  can come with different types of addiction firsthand,
• 30:38
  then, you know, you might just not necessarily.
• 30:42
  be able to wrap your head around how you know
• 30:44
  something like a childhood hobby sports cards
• 30:47
  could be considered addiction right so i totally
• 30:49
  hear where you're coming from stanley and i don't
• 30:52
  think you're being harsh uh i i just think self
• 30:55
  -discipline you know it is a big part of it but
• 30:58
  the reality is these systems are built to exploit
• 31:01
  the lack of self -discipline it's not just about
• 31:03
  willpower it's about constant exposure psychological
• 31:07
  design and the way these platforms are sort of
• 31:10
  engineered to trigger impulse loops. And you're
• 31:12
  right, that breaks might not necessarily be someone's
• 31:15
  only gambling struggle. But for a lot of people,
• 31:18
  it's the one that fuels the most socially acceptable.
• 31:21
  It's not necessarily a casino. It's fun. It's
• 31:24
  community. And so that makes it a lot easier
• 31:27
  to justify and way harder to recognize when it
• 31:30
  becomes a real issue. So this isn't about removing
• 31:33
  personal responsibility. As adults, I understand,
• 31:38
  trust me, it's very important for us to take
• 31:40
  a step back and self -reflect and make sure that
• 31:42
  we're taking personal inventory and, you know,
• 31:46
  doing things responsibly. But it's also about
• 31:49
  acknowledging how powerful these systems are
• 31:51
  and why real safeguards matter. And again, especially
• 31:54
  for the kids, especially for the next generation
• 31:57
  of individuals who just don't necessarily have
• 32:00
  the tools and resources or perhaps, you know,
• 32:02
  aren't properly educated on this. sort of stuff.
• 32:06
  So again, it's just, it's adding a layer of support.
• 32:08
  It's adding a layer of education and providing
• 32:11
  tools and resources to protect, you know, the
• 32:14
  people in this community. And those who might
• 32:17
  not have that level of self -discipline to pull
• 32:20
  away before it's too late for whatever reason.
• 32:24
  Mike, anything you would like to kind of say
• 32:27
  before you hop off? I know you got to go. I know
• 32:31
  it's late for you and you got big videos to put
• 32:33
  out tomorrow. uh but i want to give you a chance
• 32:35
  to kind of uh put a bow on your your uh inaugural
• 32:38
  appearance here on sports cards live and i do
• 32:41
  hope to have you back but anything you'd like
• 32:42
  to say before you hop off i appreciate the discussion
• 32:46
  the comments are fantastic too uh you know like
• 32:49
  greg midlife cards talking about kids uh being
• 32:53
  protected which is important i see ziggy who's
• 32:56
  always got good comments talking about breaks
• 32:59
  aren't the problem. And I don't think any of
• 33:01
  us ever said anything bad about breaks. You know,
• 33:03
  I think that there are a lot of things that are
• 33:06
  hobby specific that are addiction problems. And
• 33:11
  like, like we talked about, it's not specifically,
• 33:14
  or it may not be the only thing that you're addicted
• 33:16
  to, or maybe it just expanded your addiction
• 33:19
  problem. But yeah, there's just a lot of, a lot
• 33:23
  of things that go into this. And I don't think
• 33:28
  we can cover it in the half hour that we've had.
• 33:31
  Yeah, well, we'll continue. And again, I know
• 33:35
  you got to go. We'll continue chatting about
• 33:36
  it here with Alyx. And in about 40 minutes time,
• 33:41
  we're going to have Chris Hoj join the show.
• 33:42
  And we'll have a new topic by then. Josh Adams
• 33:45
  is, I think, going to surprise join as well at
• 33:48
  that point in time. But Mike, Junk Wax Hero,
• 33:52
  thank you for joining us. Look forward to seeing
• 33:54
  you at the National. here in 25 days so thanks
• 33:58
  again for joining us mike appreciate it thanks
• 34:01
  for having me see you guys all right so let's
• 34:06
  uh let's keep on talking Alyx and maybe um maybe
• 34:11
  i'll take a moment now at this guest well as
• 34:14
  as mike has left to read some comments from the
• 34:17
  chat that we haven't quite talked about yet i
• 34:20
  gotta just to add a little humor uh greg here
• 34:23
  says going to bed is a bigger gamble for mrs
• 34:26
  midlife uh sports fix says new wax is a double
• 34:30
  gamble you hope to get the hot rookie and you
• 34:32
  hope he has a hall of fame career right which
• 34:35
  reminds me of the comment uh about i think i
• 34:38
  have it marked to come but and you've raised
• 34:41
  that Alyx was is is holding unopened wax a gamble
• 34:45
  and right away i thought about the zion rookie
• 34:47
  class and people were stocking up on that And
• 34:50
  then it didn't work out. I mean, I think that
• 34:53
  is certainly a gamble. Chris C. says, the most
• 34:57
  gambling seems to be breaking plus opening wax.
• 35:00
  I don't disagree with that. Dan's Venture says,
• 35:03
  Alyx is a true hobby hero. I think we're all
• 35:06
  on that page. Fowlball, good evening. Welcome
• 35:09
  to the show. Fun Bobby says, pretty sure that
• 35:12
  if you buy a box of chocolates, you're going
• 35:13
  to get chocolates. Daniel Brown says, regulate
• 35:16
  breaking. Timepiece Esquire says, my name is
• 35:19
  Timepiece Esquire and I have an addiction to
• 35:21
  beautiful Pavel Bure cards. Justin Boat, it's
• 35:25
  been a while, buddy. He's checking in. I had
• 35:27
  to get a new girlfriend. Last one dumped me finally.
• 35:29
  Miss you too, Justin. I'm glad you're here. Dan's
• 35:32
  Vintage says, be smart with your money. Don't
• 35:34
  trust games of chance. Never use debt to fund
• 35:37
  a hobby. All great advice if you can execute
• 35:41
  upon it, which not everybody can. Cardboard and
• 35:44
  Plastics says, unfortunately, it is hard for
• 35:46
  us to influence new people in the hobby to not
• 35:48
  gamble when the biggest influencers are pushing
• 35:51
  mystery packs and it is supported by the biggest
• 35:53
  companies. Yeah, the only thing I'll say about
• 35:56
  that is, not that we've got to try, but if you
• 36:00
  want to try, try. I mean, not everybody is on
• 36:03
  YouTube. Not every new collector is on YouTube,
• 36:06
  but... That's also not something that we can
• 36:08
  count on. And Alyx, I'm going to ask you to take
• 36:11
  notes in your head to respond to a bunch of these
• 36:12
  after, okay? Yeah. Dan Brown says, Jeremy, you
• 36:15
  should have a breaker on and legit challenge
• 36:18
  them on this issue. That's going to be a real
• 36:20
  difference maker. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure I've
• 36:22
  had breakers on here before, and I'd be happy
• 36:25
  to have a breaker on. I know Ziggy's a breaker
• 36:31
  now, and he's always in the chat, and he's passionate
• 36:33
  about it. Maybe Ziggy's the guy. We'll see. Hockey
• 36:36
  Cardboard says, should card packs have warnings
• 36:39
  on them like cigarette packs? Alyx, I want you
• 36:41
  to talk about that one after I'm done going through
• 36:43
  comments. Sports Fix, is stashing wax gambling?
• 36:46
  I think it can be. Dan's Venture says, Jeremy,
• 36:50
  that is what the Goudy Gum Company did to kids
• 36:51
  in 1933 with a Napa Lajue. Yeah, I mean, they
• 36:55
  did it in 1923, the Patterson Chocolate Company.
• 36:59
  uh did it with the one guy whose name is escaping
• 37:02
  me right now it's a big hockey grail i don't
• 37:04
  give two poops about because he's uh not an important
• 37:07
  player thankfully brett miles says great topic
• 37:10
  hobby social content can point an unrealistic
• 37:13
  portrait of what's collecting is especially for
• 37:16
  someone starting out and or with limited funds
• 37:18
  big hit after big hit creates a skewed view high
• 37:22
  pop professor says casinos can regulate the payouts
• 37:25
  of their slot machines like 90 of the money that
• 37:28
  is put in, the value of cards is so volatile
• 37:31
  that no guarantee of value could ever be made
• 37:34
  as a regulation. It's a tough problem. I think
• 37:37
  that's such a smart comment. Hi, Pop. Thank you
• 37:39
  for that one. Midlife Greg says, this is such
• 37:43
  an important topic. Talking about it is crucial.
• 37:46
  Ziggy, no. So many people not participating in
• 37:49
  breaking are so concerned about breaks. It's
• 37:52
  the Catholic Church analogy. How about participate?
• 37:54
  or make your own breaks. I hear what you're saying,
• 37:57
  Ziggy. The only thing I'll say to that is that
• 37:58
  people, just because you're not participating
• 38:00
  doesn't mean you're not observing and seeing
• 38:02
  what is happening. It's not just the Catholic
• 38:05
  Church. It's also people going to sporting events
• 38:07
  and saying, you suck out there. Well, you're
• 38:10
  not playing. You suck worse than they do. Sancho
• 38:12
  says, it's safe to open all the boxes as long
• 38:15
  as you don't sell the cards. If you don't sell
• 38:17
  them, you don't lose. I have so many issues with
• 38:20
  this comment, Sancho. I think that to me is something
• 38:23
  that you tell yourself, but just because you're
• 38:27
  not locking in a loss doesn't mean that you're
• 38:30
  not losing, especially if you don't like the
• 38:33
  cards. If they don't give you any satisfaction
• 38:35
  from owning them, I just don't agree with that
• 38:38
  one. Alyx, I can see you've got a lot of thoughts
• 38:40
  brewing. Keep them brewing. Keep them brewing.
• 38:42
  Justin Bowe, Jay Lee, I also quit drinking 172
• 38:45
  days sober. love you baby justin and and congr
• 38:48
  172 buddy keep it going one day at a time uh
• 38:53
  dan's vinches says auction house addiction is
• 38:55
  also a thing mookie chilson says Joe is right
• 38:57
  your attention is a currency eBay loves stealing
• 39:00
  my attention uh ziggy no says singles are the
• 39:04
  biggest gamble you buy a card you expect it to
• 39:07
  go up for no reason except market no value i
• 39:09
  completely disagree with that ziggy at least
• 39:11
  you know what you're buying and you might have
• 39:14
  enough experience both in the hobby and in uh
• 39:19
  assessing players to to really mitigate that
• 39:23
  risk whereas opening a box or opening a whole
• 39:27
  box or buying a spot in a break uh you really
• 39:30
  may just get nothing for it especially when you're
• 39:33
  buying a spot in a break so i don't i think singles
• 39:36
  and i can i actually have like first -hand evidence
• 39:39
  at least if you have well at least like You know,
• 39:44
  I've been calling myself a sharpshooter since
• 39:46
  I really stopped opening product 15 years ago
• 39:49
  because I found that all I was doing was losing
• 39:51
  money. Now I buy singles and it's been financially
• 39:55
  extremely rewarding. So I just disagree. It can
• 40:00
  be, though, if all you're buying is the hottest
• 40:03
  rookie and they break an ankle. Fun Bobby says
• 40:05
  breakers are becoming filthy rich from gamblers
• 40:07
  with no self -control on a credit card. And Simon
• 40:10
  says. There's a reason why the Breakers Pavilion
• 40:12
  at the National feels like a casino. And after
• 40:15
  going through all those, I've got 50 unread comments.
• 40:18
  So, guys, I'm not going to get to them all, but
• 40:20
  I'm now going to turn it back over to Alyx. I
• 40:22
  hope you've been taking notes, Alyx. There's
• 40:24
  a lot. I want you to, Joe, keep eating that popcorn
• 40:27
  because Alyx is going to go off for a bit here,
• 40:29
  I think. Yeah, I'm not going to. Well, I am going
• 40:33
  to answer some of these questions specifically,
• 40:35
  but I'm going to kind of generalize a lot of
• 40:37
  this. First and foremost, this is a layered issue,
• 40:41
  and all of this deserves real conversation. So
• 40:44
  I'm going to start by saying gambling has always
• 40:47
  been a part of the hobby in some form. We were
• 40:48
  just talking about that. That's something that
• 40:50
  Jeremy has touched on several times, and I couldn't
• 40:53
  agree more. That thrill of the unknown, the chase
• 40:55
  for a rare pull, that's been there since the
• 40:59
  beginning. But what's changed is the access.
• 41:02
  Again, with these platforms, everything has just
• 41:06
  turned into 24 -7 exposure. You're no longer
• 41:09
  grabbing a packet at your local store once in
• 41:11
  a while. You're ripping at 2 a .m. on a Tuesday,
• 41:14
  bidding on auctions subconsciously, not even
• 41:20
  realizing that your thumb is hitting the bid
• 41:22
  button. You're joining breaks while half listening
• 41:24
  in a meeting at work. like the hobby went from
• 41:27
  casual to constant and that's when the line sort
• 41:31
  of started to blur right so with that when it
• 41:34
  comes to sealed wax or breaks there's a big difference
• 41:38
  stashing sealed product may not necessarily feel
• 41:41
  like gambling but the intent often mirrors it
• 41:44
  right you're holding it you're investing in something
• 41:47
  and you're hoping that it spikes in value at
• 41:50
  some point so you're you're keeping it sealed
• 41:53
  to avoid the guilt of ripping it all in one go
• 41:55
  perhaps it's like some sort of delayed gratification
• 41:58
  and you know you have some self -control that
• 42:00
  you didn't just you know rip it open but it's
• 42:04
  still sort of tied to that same dopamine loop
• 42:06
  and the ultimate goal right is to win is to profit
• 42:10
  on that so that hope for value and that on underlying
• 42:14
  sort of impulse is is gambling break specifically
• 42:17
  and again i mentioned there are layers to this
• 42:20
  breaks specifically are gambling in plain sight
• 42:24
  you're you're paying for a randomized chance
• 42:26
  and you most of the time 90 of the time you either
• 42:31
  walk away with nothing or you walk away with
• 42:33
  a fraction of what you invest in it right it's
• 42:38
  it's a slot machine just wrapped in shiny cardboard
• 42:40
  and a whole ton of influencer energy uh you've
• 42:44
  got the excitement you've got community you've
• 42:46
  got the pressure everything is sort of mixed
• 42:48
  together and that cycle just creates something
• 42:51
  that's that's really really dangerous and again
• 42:54
  especially for younger collectors who are more
• 42:57
  prone and more impressionable and vulnerable
• 43:00
  to addictive behaviors and predators and bad
• 43:02
  actors in the hobby so um going to the question
• 43:06
  where um somebody asked should packs have warning
• 43:11
  labels like cigarette boxes i mean honestly like
• 43:15
  it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world because
• 43:17
  whether it's like buying into breaks stashing
• 43:20
  sealed wax ripping packs by yourself when you're
• 43:23
  feeling down or like you're feeling that itch
• 43:26
  they're all addictive triggers like all around
• 43:29
  us even just like something very subtle like
• 43:33
  a message that says this product contains randomized
• 43:35
  content odds of pulling a high value card or
• 43:39
  Making your money back are extremely low. Please
• 43:42
  collect responsibly. Please rip responsibly.
• 43:45
  It doesn't really matter how we word it. We just
• 43:47
  need to make sure that that underlying message
• 43:49
  is consistent. And that can really, really go
• 43:52
  a long way. And it's not about killing the fun.
• 43:54
  It's not about canceling the hobby. We always
• 43:57
  say we're not anti -hobby. It's just about being
• 44:00
  more informed, making intentional decisions,
• 44:02
  collecting with purpose, collecting with clarity.
• 44:05
  And it's about giving people the tools to...
• 44:07
  pause self -reflect and sort of just take a step
• 44:11
  back and and make sure that again they're going
• 44:13
  about their hobby within their means because
• 44:17
  the truth is the hobby is no longer low stakes
• 44:20
  or kid -centered right it's it's fast it's loud
• 44:23
  it's expensive and it's designed to keep you
• 44:26
  hooked these these platforms have added in all
• 44:29
  of these bells and whistles to make it look like
• 44:31
  a casino and you know when i showed my dad recently
• 44:36
  the user experience on Whatnot, he was scratching
• 44:38
  his head. He was like, this is literally like
• 44:41
  being inside of a casino. I feel like I'm at
• 44:45
  Harrah's in Atlantic City right now. And it's
• 44:48
  crazy because we're also just like accustomed
• 44:50
  to it. We're almost numb to it. We see it all
• 44:52
  the time. So nobody's really like putting two
• 44:55
  and two together and realizing that this is what
• 44:58
  it is. It was designed this way to make more
• 45:01
  money. So, you know, with all that being said,
• 45:04
  we're not saying don't collect. We're just saying
• 45:06
  know what you're getting yourself into, because
• 45:09
  if we keep pretending that it's all just harmless
• 45:11
  fun, more people are just going to keep getting
• 45:13
  hurt. And the industry's silence, you know, won't
• 45:16
  be so easy to excuse. So, you know, I think we're
• 45:20
  sort of at that breaking point where if we don't
• 45:22
  act now, we don't make the changes and start
• 45:25
  to really aggressively push for industry reform
• 45:28
  as a collective community. where we're going
• 45:32
  to be doomed. The next generation is not going
• 45:35
  to be set up for success. Okay, well, thank you
• 45:39
  for all that, for responding to all that. I've
• 45:42
  got a lot of things to say. So I'm going to take
• 45:44
  a moment and gather my thoughts in my notes here
• 45:47
  and let Joe, if you don't mind, just share what
• 45:51
  you've been thinking, Joe, as you've been listening
• 45:53
  to all the comments I was reading and to Alyx's
• 45:56
  response, if you don't mind. Yeah, I mean, I
• 46:00
  would just underscore Alyx's point that, you
• 46:03
  know, this is this is very nuanced and complex.
• 46:08
  Right. There's a lot of different components
• 46:10
  to this from the industry to the individual.
• 46:14
  I tend to focus on the individual. And anytime
• 46:17
  I see individuals that, you know, are being hurt
• 46:21
  by a particular situation, if you know that that's
• 46:25
  concerning to me because I'm. I'm empathetic.
• 46:30
  And I guess, you know, to get to brass tacks,
• 46:36
  I've never been in a break, but, you know, I
• 46:40
  have ripped some wax. And I think where my brain
• 46:45
  goes as a practical person is what would be the
• 46:50
  right amount for breakers to charge, a more modest
• 46:55
  amount, I would think. to facilitate pack opening,
• 47:00
  the breaking of isolation, the thrill of the
• 47:05
  hunt, all the different things that this pursuit
• 47:09
  sort of is compelling, why it's compelling to
• 47:12
  people. I don't think breaking's going away,
• 47:17
  but I do think that safeguarding the ways in
• 47:22
  which it's conducted is important to all of us
• 47:26
  even if we're not breakers because it does it
• 47:28
  does create a healthier hobby ecosystem to have
• 47:32
  people not fleeing and also more importantly
• 47:35
  way more importantly human beings you know having
• 47:39
  their lives impacted um in in in critically negative
• 47:43
  ways um so you know my my question would sort
• 47:47
  of be along the lines you know i i i'd love the
• 47:49
  chat tonight the chat's been you know, I don't
• 47:52
  want to say on fire, but they've been very engaged.
• 47:55
  And I guess, you know, the question becomes,
• 48:00
  is there a sweet spot where people can be at
• 48:04
  least doing breaks, but without the massive markups
• 48:07
  that already are inherent to most ripping of
• 48:12
  wax, right? If we think of 30 % ROI. But then
• 48:16
  breakers are finding a way to sort of fractionalize
• 48:19
  the spots that make it even more and more and
• 48:22
  more of a leap. I guess that's one lever, right?
• 48:27
  But the most critical lever that I think Alyx
• 48:29
  is on the front lines with is helping the individuals.
• 48:33
  And that's, you know, that is essential. And
• 48:37
  there's all kinds of corollaries in the world.
• 48:39
  It's not just sports cards. But here we are.
• 48:42
  This is a sports card show. This is our hobby.
• 48:45
  And so we should be stewards for the greater
• 48:48
  good. Yeah. Yeah. We're not going to get into
• 48:51
  the boo -boo, unfortunately, because this is
• 48:53
  a sports card channel. But, you know, we have
• 48:55
  talked about some other things as well, of course.
• 48:57
  So a couple of things I wanted to say, and thank
• 48:59
  you, Joe. So I started talking about all this
• 49:03
  addiction stuff here on, well, myself on my various
• 49:06
  platforms, i .e. Instagram X and YouTube. After
• 49:10
  listening to an episode. of the shallow end podcast
• 49:14
  the iowa dave show one of my favorite podcasts
• 49:17
  out there and uh when he talked about the as
• 49:22
  and that's why i'm calling him the uh the the
• 49:25
  what does he call them the casino in your pockets
• 49:28
  the group break i forget exactly the words he
• 49:30
  used but the casino in your pocket era of the
• 49:33
  hobby and i was listening to the podcast and
• 49:36
  and i The next day, I put out a post on Instagram
• 49:40
  and Twitter that got a ton of engagement and
• 49:43
  a lot of pushback against me. I did mess up a
• 49:46
  part of the post where I kind of did get something
• 49:48
  wrong. But it was after listening to Iowa Dave.
• 49:53
  And before I put out my post, we got on the phone,
• 49:57
  Dave and I. And I said, hey, listen to your pod.
• 50:00
  And Dave and I are friends. We talked on the
• 50:02
  phone before. I said, Dave. Listen to your podcast.
• 50:04
  There's one thing, though, that I didn't agree
• 50:06
  with. And I want to make sure I understand it
• 50:08
  and just see if we can get on the same page,
• 50:10
  because it didn't make sense to me where he kind
• 50:13
  of in the podcast. And I'm paraphrasing. So,
• 50:16
  Dave, please forgive me if I'm not saying this
• 50:18
  right. But he kind of said that, you know, gambling,
• 50:21
  you can gamble on these online casinos like the
• 50:25
  Whatnots, Fanatics Lives, etc. But going into
• 50:27
  an LCS is not gambling. And I said, well, I think
• 50:30
  it is. not all the time but i think it can be
• 50:33
  so we had a long conversation we ended that conversation
• 50:35
  basically with agreeing that it's not that buying
• 50:39
  wax at an lcs isn't gambling it's what Alyx was
• 50:42
  saying before we've all agreed it's the ease
• 50:44
  of access and the lack of friction to buy cards
• 50:47
  to buy into breaks and break product online whether
• 50:50
  you're part of a group break or whether you are
• 50:52
  buying a personal uh a personal box for yourself
• 50:57
  as they call them percy's now i've come to learn
• 51:00
  So that's what triggered me to put up a post.
• 51:03
  And I'm going to put it on the screen right now
• 51:04
  for anybody who didn't see it. Right here it
• 51:07
  says, if Whatnot, this is me talking, if Whatnot
• 51:10
  and Fanatics Live are breaking casinos, and let's
• 51:12
  be honest, your LCS is one too. Ripping wax has
• 51:15
  always been gambling. I stand by all this to
• 51:18
  this day, and that has to do with my own real
• 51:20
  experiences and friends' experiences. I go on,
• 51:24
  and this is where I get it wrong. Same odds.
• 51:26
  That's wrong. And Rob. From Burbank said it's
• 51:29
  not the same odds because group breakers will
• 51:32
  mark up. He calls it the VIG, the markup. It'll
• 51:35
  be higher. I agree. The higher the price, the
• 51:39
  worse the odds. Now, getting something doesn't
• 51:42
  change, but it's like the risk is different.
• 51:45
  But so I agree that that's a bit that wasn't
• 51:48
  correct. i say same odds same risk i think that
• 51:52
  was incorrect now i go on to say different vibe
• 51:54
  different decor that's what Alyx was saying it's
• 51:58
  all it's it's the high pressure sales it's the
• 52:00
  trying to get people to spend more money it's
• 52:03
  and it's the it's almost like some not all great
• 52:06
  breakers do this but shaming people to spend
• 52:09
  more money on certain spots and i go on to say
• 52:12
  it's not about where you rip it's that you're
• 52:14
  ripping Now, I stand by this, but I did put out
• 52:17
  a follow -up post the next day, which I'll share
• 52:20
  with you right here, where I said, you know,
• 52:22
  I'm here for the passion. Respectful disagreement
• 52:24
  helps us all get sharper. My post yesterday sparked
• 52:27
  a great discussion. I'm glad it did. I added
• 52:29
  clarification after realizing I was wrong. About
• 52:32
  the odds part, that's on me. Most agree. There's
• 52:34
  a gamble in opening wax, whether it's at your
• 52:36
  LCS or through a live casino in your pocket break.
• 52:39
  The differences are in accessibility friction
• 52:41
  and, in many cases, high -pressure sales. and
• 52:44
  inducement now i again i think that all makes
• 52:48
  sense and Alyx and i had a good conversation
• 52:51
  about this the other day so uh and now excuse
• 52:57
  me Alyx i think we were on the same page is there
• 52:59
  anything that you want to add to any of that
• 53:01
  or comment on i mean it's obviously very subjective
• 53:06
  and there are layers to it and i like the way
• 53:09
  you phrased um Repeat what you said again regarding,
• 53:14
  you know, just the layer of friction. Yeah, I
• 53:17
  said right here, the differences are in accessibility.
• 53:21
  We've already talked about these types of friction.
• 53:24
  And in many cases, and not all cases, but the
• 53:26
  high pressure sales and the inducement to spend
• 53:30
  either your first penny or your last penny. Yeah,
• 53:34
  that is so well worded. So, you know, is ripping
• 53:37
  at an LCS still gambling? Yes. I mean, for all
• 53:41
  intents and purposes, yes. If you're paying a
• 53:44
  premium for a seal product where the outcome
• 53:47
  is unknown and the goal is to profit or hit big,
• 53:51
  however you want to word it, it's functionally
• 53:55
  gambling. That's just the basic definition of
• 53:58
  gambling, risking money on an uncertain outcome
• 54:00
  in hopes of a reward. So the fact that it's cardboard
• 54:04
  instead of cash doesn't change the psychology
• 54:06
  behind it. Just because, you know, you're you.
• 54:11
  made the concerted effort to drive to your local
• 54:13
  card shop and and purchase a pack of cards in
• 54:17
  person and and do it responsibly as opposed to
• 54:20
  you know passively on your phone at two in the
• 54:23
  morning it's all sort of still the same like
• 54:28
  experience at the end of the day so you know
• 54:31
  again ripping in person at your local car shop
• 54:34
  might feel more nostalgic or grounded compared
• 54:37
  to high stakes breaks on on a live streaming
• 54:40
  platform but the behavior is essentially the
• 54:42
  same you're chasing a result you're spending
• 54:44
  with hope and often you're risking more than
• 54:47
  you realize um the difference is visibility and
• 54:51
  frequency so live breaks add public pressure
• 54:55
  the social validation component, the rapid fire
• 54:58
  repetition. And even if you're just, you know,
• 55:01
  sitting quietly in an LCS parking lot or, you
• 55:04
  know, at home ripping a box or ripping box after
• 55:07
  box, because you just, you know, sort of have
• 55:09
  a feeling that that big hit is coming up. You're
• 55:13
  still in that same emotional loop. So it's not
• 55:16
  about sort of where you rip like the environment
• 55:19
  or the setting. It's why you're ripping, you
• 55:22
  know, asking yourself why joy versus compulsion.
• 55:25
  how often you're doing it whether it's like occasionally
• 55:27
  or obsessively and what you're risking right
• 55:30
  whether that's your money it's and it's not always
• 55:32
  about just your finances it's about your mental
• 55:35
  health your relationships so if you're not thinking
• 55:38
  about the outcome the cost or the consequences
• 55:41
  then chances are it's sort of crossed over into
• 55:45
  this gambling territory and the sooner we start
• 55:47
  to recognize these patterns the sooner we can
• 55:50
  bring mindfulness back into the hobby because
• 55:52
  at the end of the day collecting should be fun
• 55:54
  but we just you know we don't want to confuse
• 55:57
  fun with free reign right yeah you know makes
• 56:03
  me think of another story and i shared this one
• 56:05
  with you Alyx the other day i'll share it with
• 56:07
  the audience here uh this goes back to probably
• 56:11
  2007 in that in that era um a a friend of mine
• 56:17
  who's not in the hobby worked at a company and
• 56:19
  he had a guy in his company who was a card collector.
• 56:22
  And he said, oh, you collect cards? My buddy
• 56:26
  Jeremy, he collects cards too. I should introduce
• 56:28
  you. So he did. So I met this guy local. And
• 56:31
  I'd see him at the card shop after here and there,
• 56:34
  the trade nights and that sort of thing in 2007,
• 56:36
  8, 9. I get a phone call from him one day. And
• 56:42
  he says, I need you to come over and buy everything
• 56:46
  I have. i said what what's i said oh okay like
• 56:50
  you know i was just starting to get into the
• 56:51
  card show game setting up as a vendor i thought
• 56:53
  oh great i'm gonna get some new inventory sort
• 56:56
  of thing so i went over to his house and uh we
• 57:01
  start chatting and he starts telling me a story
• 57:04
  about how he's been buying wax at the lcs uh
• 57:09
  to the point where he you know on his way home
• 57:12
  from work he'd stop he'd spend thirteen hundred
• 57:14
  dollars His wife would ask him, what's this charge
• 57:18
  on the credit card? And he would say, oh, I had
• 57:20
  to get new tires put on the car sort of thing.
• 57:22
  I don't know how, you know, that's what he would
• 57:24
  tell her. And this happened to the point, it
• 57:27
  happened to him to the point where it was happening
• 57:29
  so much, he was running out of excuses where
• 57:31
  the family money was going. He finally came clean
• 57:35
  to his wife. And they agreed that in order to
• 57:39
  save their marriage, he had to sell everything.
• 57:41
  So he called me up, went over to his house again.
• 57:44
  He filled me in what was going on, looked at
• 57:47
  the stuff. We made a deal. He helped me load
• 57:49
  it into his car. Not just the cards, but like,
• 57:52
  you know, blaster tint, like tins of like upper
• 57:56
  deck hockey, the empty tins that had supplies
• 57:58
  in them. Everything that was hobby related had
• 58:02
  to go. He had an uncut sheet of the cup had to
• 58:05
  go. I had it on my wall for many, many years.
• 58:08
  I just sold that a couple of years ago, actually.
• 58:12
  The guy had to. literally leave the hobby altogether
• 58:15
  to save his marriage and that was my that was
• 58:20
  when I first had that was when I first realized
• 58:24
  that like yeah I've gone to the LCS and dropped
• 58:26
  four grand and drove home in shame like I would
• 58:29
  feel if I lost money at a blackjack table but
• 58:32
  this is the first time I saw somebody who was
• 58:34
  lying to his wife about it for months and months
• 58:37
  spent like I'm going to guess this is me guessing.
• 58:40
  I remember like call it a hundred grand. And
• 58:42
  back then that was a lot more money than it is
• 58:43
  now. And he had to, he had to sell to save his
• 58:47
  freaking marriage. So I just mentioned this because
• 58:51
  it's another example of what people are facing
• 58:58
  in this hobby. They're not talking about it.
• 59:00
  Now Alyx is providing a community and a service
• 59:04
  and a support group for people who might be able
• 59:07
  to, you know, If this guy's lucky, he saved his
• 59:10
  marriage. I felt a bit like I was providing a
• 59:15
  wonderful service. I almost felt like a counselor
• 59:20
  in a way that I came in and helped him save his
• 59:24
  marriage because he didn't know where else to
• 59:26
  go. I'm sure he could have taken it somewhere.
• 59:28
  But anyway, I felt really good that I was able
• 59:30
  to help him out. i tell that story it's also
• 59:35
  to emphasize this is before the days of Whatnot
• 59:37
  or any of these casino in your pocket kind of
• 59:40
  platforms this was just from Alyx this has nothing
• 59:43
  had nothing to do with ease of access on his
• 59:45
  way home from work every day he would just stop
• 59:48
  and drop you know whatever 300 1200 1500 until
• 59:52
  again he had to stop to save the marriage okay
• 59:55
  i want to mention that and then the other thing
• 59:59
  i wanted to mention and then we're gonna then
• 1:00:01
  we're gonna uh go back to you, Alyx, was, and
• 1:00:06
  it's in the comments here. So let's just do this
• 1:00:08
  first. We're going to read a few comments and
• 1:00:09
  I'm going to stumble into where I'm going. And
• 1:00:11
  then we're going to go back to you, Alyx. So
• 1:00:12
  Yelio Williams says, pulling a nice card out
• 1:00:14
  of a pack is an essential hobby experience, in
• 1:00:17
  my opinion. I don't know about that. I think,
• 1:00:20
  I don't know if it's essential myself, although
• 1:00:22
  I've done it. So I shouldn't say it isn't, but
• 1:00:25
  I don't know that it's essential. I think there
• 1:00:26
  are other ways to hobby, but I get it. Let's
• 1:00:29
  go. Jordan says, IPC, Babe Ruth and Michael Jordan.
• 1:00:31
  Do these count? as maybe he means as gambling.
• 1:00:33
  I don't think so. I think those are pretty darn
• 1:00:35
  safe. Mark Santucci says, I had Chad Blesnik
• 1:00:40
  on the show a while ago. He's a full -time gambler,
• 1:00:43
  but I don't know if he's a breaker himself. I
• 1:00:48
  know Bles is a breaker. I don't know if he is
• 1:00:50
  or not. Midlife says, I agree, Jeremy. Have Ziggy
• 1:00:52
  on. I want to hear both sides of this. Brett
• 1:00:56
  Miles says, breaking can be fun, 100%. Breaking
• 1:00:58
  to the point where you're in massive debt, not
• 1:01:00
  so much. a lot of conversation joe about what
• 1:01:03
  you were snacking on Jeremy says what is joe
• 1:01:06
  snacking on to which brett says the chat is so
• 1:01:08
  spicy spicy that joe got the popcorn out and
• 1:01:11
  midlife says looks like popcorn ziggy no says
• 1:01:15
  breaking needs a makeover too many negative images
• 1:01:18
  and this is the this is the comment i was waiting
• 1:01:19
  for i think this is a really insightful comment
• 1:01:22
  from ziggy and this is where i wanted to say
• 1:01:26
  that you know should break the makeover might
• 1:01:32
  be towards um responsible and integral breakers
• 1:01:37
  breakers who are showing integrity who are cutting
• 1:01:41
  people off who are maybe issuing warnings and
• 1:01:44
  that sort of thing if they're willing to uh should
• 1:01:47
  breakers like that be celebrated should they
• 1:01:51
  be propped up as leaders in the space instead
• 1:01:55
  of the ones who are doing the most revenue but
• 1:01:58
  are also doing the most damage and high -pressure
• 1:02:04
  sales and inducement and trying to get that last
• 1:02:07
  penny out of the addict in their breakers' rooms.
• 1:02:11
  I want to put that all over to you now, Alyx,
• 1:02:12
  please. Yeah, I mean, I think there are different
• 1:02:15
  types of breakers. There are different ways that
• 1:02:21
  these breakers go about engaging their audience.
• 1:02:24
  Ziggy also mentioned something else that I want
• 1:02:26
  to touch on. that comment was not uh all breaks
• 1:02:31
  Alyx refer Alyx refers to all breaks as gambling
• 1:02:34
  it's a method of purchasing too if there is no
• 1:02:37
  profit is it a gamble if it's free is it a gamble
• 1:02:39
  yes you can break at lower prices you can share
• 1:02:43
  risk but we watch one bad breaker overcharge
• 1:02:45
  and all breakers are not the same so you know
• 1:02:48
  i think that encompasses everything we're talking
• 1:02:50
  about here i totally get where ziggy is coming
• 1:02:52
  from and i appreciate him pulling over uh to
• 1:02:55
  send that message thoughtfully i know he was
• 1:02:58
  uh he was driving and then he stopped to uh to
• 1:03:00
  uh chime in so i i think ziggy is right in that
• 1:03:03
  not all breakers are are created equally and
• 1:03:06
  there are definitely formats that share risk
• 1:03:09
  more fairly or offered at more reasonable prices
• 1:03:12
  and i'm not here to paint every breaker as a
• 1:03:17
  bad actor um or you know somebody with with malicious
• 1:03:20
  intent there are honest community driven breakers
• 1:03:23
  out there that are doing it the right way there's
• 1:03:25
  no doubt about that but here's the distinction
• 1:03:28
  i'm trying to highlight right when the format
• 1:03:31
  mimics gambling behavior uncertain outcome monetary
• 1:03:34
  risk and a prize -based reward system it starts
• 1:03:38
  to mirror the mechanics of gambling even if the
• 1:03:40
  intention isn't malicious so even free breaks
• 1:03:43
  while obviously not financially risky they can
• 1:03:46
  still reinforce this sort of same dopamine loop
• 1:03:49
  and addictive behavior especially in younger
• 1:03:51
  participants who are being conditioned to crave
• 1:03:54
  that hit it can almost serve as a gateway honestly
• 1:03:57
  that's how like gambling platforms suck in a
• 1:04:00
  lot of their customers they send them a free
• 1:04:02
  bet Or they send them a deposit match. And it's
• 1:04:04
  like, oh, it's free. You know, it can't hurt.
• 1:04:06
  I'm just going to do it once. And then they watch
• 1:04:08
  the game and it's super close and it comes down
• 1:04:11
  to the wire. And they lose on a bad play or a
• 1:04:15
  missed shot or whatever the case may be. Next
• 1:04:17
  thing you know, you know, you feel like you just
• 1:04:19
  got, you know, screwed out of a couple hundred
• 1:04:23
  bucks. Right. So you take your own money and
• 1:04:26
  you. you double down. And that's exactly how
• 1:04:29
  you get sucked in. That's also how compulsive
• 1:04:31
  gamblers who are trying to sort of take a break
• 1:04:35
  or self -exclude or cool off, again, get sucked
• 1:04:38
  back in. They're like, ah, this time is different.
• 1:04:41
  I'm just going to use this deposit match once
• 1:04:44
  or use this free bet, and then I'll take a step
• 1:04:48
  back. No, that's not how all of this is designed.
• 1:04:52
  It's like it's literally set up as a trap to
• 1:04:55
  suck you in and spit you out. So sort of to tie
• 1:04:58
  it all together and to Ziggy's point, you know,
• 1:05:01
  profit isn't the only factor. It's not always
• 1:05:04
  about whether the value of what you got matches
• 1:05:07
  or exceeds what you paid. It's about how frequently
• 1:05:10
  you're engaging, what you're feeling when you're
• 1:05:12
  watching or buying in, and whether it's starting
• 1:05:14
  to impact your mindset or your behavior outside
• 1:05:17
  of the hobby. So I'm all for fair prices, shared
• 1:05:21
  risk and community first approach. But I think
• 1:05:23
  we just we need to shine a light on the structures
• 1:05:26
  that take advantage of people, especially when
• 1:05:29
  high pressure and lack of transparency are involved.
• 1:05:31
  Right. So, again, it's not about anti hobby,
• 1:05:34
  anti breaker, anti breaking. It's just about
• 1:05:38
  pro awareness and pro education. You know, educating
• 1:05:41
  these young consumers, these young customers
• 1:05:44
  who just frankly have no idea what they're getting
• 1:05:46
  themselves into. Yeah, yeah. Joe, thanks, Alyx.
• 1:05:52
  Joe, do you have any thoughts on this last little
• 1:05:55
  segment here? And then we'll go to some comments
• 1:05:58
  again. I really appreciated Alyx's breaking it
• 1:06:02
  down there. I hadn't thought about that, I guess,
• 1:06:05
  because I'm a little bit removed. I do think
• 1:06:08
  of ROI, but what you're getting at, Alyx, is
• 1:06:12
  just the whole behavior that's geared to kind
• 1:06:15
  of stimulate the limbic system in the ways that
• 1:06:18
  it does. And, you know, why should someone like
• 1:06:23
  I, you know, care about this? It's because I
• 1:06:27
  care about the hobby and I care about people,
• 1:06:31
  right? Getting back to that fundamental. But
• 1:06:33
  I know, you know, I'm not naive enough to think
• 1:06:36
  there's not a lot of other ways that, you know,
• 1:06:39
  people can ruin their lives out there or go down
• 1:06:41
  a dark hole that impacts their life. You know,
• 1:06:46
  all sorts of ways to tumble down. But in this
• 1:06:50
  space, which is, you know, a space I care about,
• 1:06:54
  it is unfortunate when you see people's experience
• 1:06:58
  kind of become something that not only doesn't
• 1:07:03
  keep them in the hobby, but impacts their life
• 1:07:05
  in a potentially negative way. And I guess what
• 1:07:09
  I'm taking away from this conversation, too,
• 1:07:11
  is just all things. the right proportion. I mean,
• 1:07:15
  I definitely have some compulsive behaviors in
• 1:07:19
  relation to how I hobby. And at various moments,
• 1:07:24
  I've been concerned about my own relationship
• 1:07:27
  to, you know, acquiring cardboard. And I think
• 1:07:31
  for that reason, I do have a lot of empathy for
• 1:07:35
  people that are, you know, putting their lives
• 1:07:39
  at risk, for lack of a better word. And it's
• 1:07:41
  also kind of, mirroring in my mind a little bit
• 1:07:46
  of the uptick in sports gambling. I mean, you're
• 1:07:50
  seeing legalized gambling emerge in all sorts
• 1:07:55
  of states now. It's probably never been easier
• 1:07:58
  to bet on sports. And you see it advertised in
• 1:08:04
  actual sporting events, which I find kind of
• 1:08:08
  amazing because you can't help but question.
• 1:08:12
  Is Scott Foster being put into the referee crew
• 1:08:17
  to extend the series? Scott Foster is a referee
• 1:08:20
  in the NBA, and there was a big commotion online
• 1:08:24
  about whether or not his refereeing of a critical
• 1:08:29
  game in the NBA Finals was tantamount to Adam
• 1:08:34
  Silver deciding or at least wanting the series
• 1:08:38
  to go. more than five or six games or a particular
• 1:08:41
  team to win so i yeah i think uh we've got a
• 1:08:45
  a large problem in the whole sports world and
• 1:08:50
  in the card world um i i do agree with what greg
• 1:08:55
  said in the chat earlier you know uh children
• 1:08:59
  whose brains have not fully developed have even
• 1:09:01
  less of a chance now i don't know if they're
• 1:09:03
  actually breaking or not i don't know how much
• 1:09:05
  that's actually happening but you do see kids
• 1:09:08
  in the showroom floors, going around, hunting
• 1:09:11
  for their kabooms, transacting in a way where
• 1:09:14
  they don't seem to really appreciate the cards
• 1:09:17
  themselves. And that's sad to me. As a hobbyist,
• 1:09:20
  a lifelong hobbyist, I really would love to shift
• 1:09:25
  the conversation out of these economic flipping
• 1:09:30
  kind of situations and a little bit more into
• 1:09:33
  the appreciation of the cards. Yeah, well said,
• 1:09:38
  Joe. And like O says, Joe is hitting it right
• 1:09:42
  on the head. Yeah, lots of great comments there,
• 1:09:44
  especially the parallel with sports gambling
• 1:09:48
  itself. We're going to go to some comments now,
• 1:09:51
  guys. And a lot of this will follow up on what
• 1:09:53
  we've been talking about. Triple V says, this
• 1:09:55
  topic would make a great hobby documentary. Interview
• 1:09:58
  those affected as well as the companies behind
• 1:10:00
  these breaks, which includes the manufacturers,
• 1:10:03
  then overlay percentages, odds, et cetera, in
• 1:10:05
  order. to drive home the point uh Chris C. says
• 1:10:10
  what not is the casino so is your local LCS except
• 1:10:15
  that the lcs has a lot of non -casino like you
• 1:10:19
  can go into an actual casino in vegas and you've
• 1:10:22
  got gift shops and you've got restaurants and
• 1:10:24
  you can get massages that's the non -gambling
• 1:10:26
  part uh an lcs has i think non -gambling aspects
• 1:10:30
  as well other services and that but certainly
• 1:10:33
  can act as a casino. Fun Bobby says, I lost 40K
• 1:10:37
  to breaking in the blink of an eye. It just adds
• 1:10:40
  up really fast. It's always on to the next break.
• 1:10:44
  Texas Ranger says, I think he's talking about
• 1:10:46
  my post as it triggered others too. Texas Rangers,
• 1:10:50
  I think that's what that was about. I'm sorry,
• 1:10:52
  not enough context there. Fun Bobby said, breaking
• 1:10:54
  is not entertainment if it affects people financially.
• 1:10:58
  Hobby Champ said, if you're going to become addicted
• 1:11:00
  to the hobby, become addicted to buying high
• 1:11:02
  -grade rookie cards of all -time greats from
• 1:11:04
  the 1910s to the 50s. 99 .9 % of ultra -modern
• 1:11:09
  will collapse in value. I agree with everything
• 1:11:12
  there, Hobby Champs, except the high -grade part.
• 1:11:15
  Low -grade, high -I appeal, I would add to that.
• 1:11:18
  Ziggy No says, I have reached out to other breakers,
• 1:11:21
  and I've reached out to Whatnot and Fanatics
• 1:11:23
  too. We all want the same, a better hobby. We
• 1:11:26
  need to stop attacking each other. I know, ironic
• 1:11:28
  coming from me. Ziggy, to me, it shows some growth
• 1:11:33
  as well, which I think is great. But thank you
• 1:11:36
  for the comment. Fowlball says, I'm addicted
• 1:11:38
  to sports cards live. I'll take it. 1956 Tops
• 1:11:42
  Guy. What's up, Matthew? Says, hey, oh, glad
• 1:11:44
  to be able to join the live. Glad to have you.
• 1:11:46
  Ziggy says, we need more positive transparency
• 1:11:48
  to help grow and make breaking better. Odds should
• 1:11:52
  be easier to find. Pricing should be transparent.
• 1:11:54
  And this ties into. what I was saying earlier,
• 1:11:56
  where breakers who are doing that maybe need
• 1:12:01
  to be celebrated. Not celebrated, but maybe propped
• 1:12:04
  up or at least leading the way, setting the example.
• 1:12:07
  Maybe that's a better way of saying it. Mid Atlantic
• 1:12:10
  says, I don't think it's right to blame the breakers
• 1:12:12
  when it all starts with the card manufacturer
• 1:12:15
  producing a product that can't possibly be consumed
• 1:12:18
  at a price point that can't be consumed any other
• 1:12:21
  way. Now, listen, okay, Joe is applauding. But
• 1:12:25
  I think there's another layer to that, guys.
• 1:12:28
  The manufacturers started doing this because
• 1:12:31
  of breakers. Breakers came in before manufacturers
• 1:12:35
  knew what breaking was. Breakers invented breaking.
• 1:12:40
  And it was manufacturers who caught on and started
• 1:12:44
  customizing products for breakers. And that's
• 1:12:47
  when the costs all started to go up. Dan's Vintage
• 1:12:51
  said the reason the boxes are overpriced is because...
• 1:12:55
  of Fanatics exploit is exploiting breaking well
• 1:13:00
  again it's deeper than that though really Fanatics
• 1:13:04
  bought tops because breaking was there breaking
• 1:13:08
  came before Fanatics guys they came because they
• 1:13:12
  saw what Fanatics was a what what tops was able
• 1:13:15
  to do and panini and upper deck for that matter
• 1:13:19
  right and leaf with the leaf and brian gray kind
• 1:13:23
  of invented the repack like Breakers came before
• 1:13:28
  the manufacturers realized what they were doing.
• 1:13:32
  If you witnessed the history, breakers came,
• 1:13:37
  the manufacturers customized around them. Just
• 1:13:41
  wanted to point that out. Dan says, thank you,
• 1:13:43
  Alyx, for your thoughtful approach and incredible
• 1:13:45
  knowledge of this problem. 100%, Dan. Curmudgeon
• 1:13:49
  in the house. What's going on, Curmudgeon? Fun
• 1:13:52
  Bobby said the hobby doesn't need breakers. The
• 1:13:54
  hobby needs lower wax prices. And to that, I
• 1:13:57
  say, I mean, either we're too late or the hobby
• 1:14:01
  has to go through another complete cycle or everybody
• 1:14:06
  has to stop buying for that to happen. Otherwise,
• 1:14:08
  it's like it's too late, unfortunately, or whatever.
• 1:14:12
  It's just too late. I think Ziggy knows that
• 1:14:14
  breaking has grown the hobby more in the past
• 1:14:16
  five years than collecting sets has. Sorry. I
• 1:14:19
  think he's completely right. The question is.
• 1:14:22
  uh what cardboard and plastic says is it growing
• 1:14:25
  the hobby in a good way though just because things
• 1:14:28
  are worth more doesn't mean that that growth
• 1:14:30
  is positive so i think that's a fair back and
• 1:14:33
  forth and i i i think ziggy is right but i think
• 1:14:36
  cardboard and plastic has a great kind of rebuttal
• 1:14:39
  to that foul ball says roi should not be in a
• 1:14:42
  hobby now to which i say then shut down eBay
• 1:14:46
  shut down all the auction companies shut it down
• 1:14:50
  This hobby doesn't exist without a potential
• 1:14:54
  of ROI for people. Unfortunately, not this hobby.
• 1:14:57
  Maybe another hobby does, but this one just doesn't
• 1:14:59
  at this point. Chris C. says, the main thing
• 1:15:01
  breaking has done is made breakers rich. I can't
• 1:15:06
  really speak to that too well. I'm not a breaker,
• 1:15:08
  but I've heard that that is the case. Mid Atlantic
• 1:15:11
  says, bravo, Joe. There is a direct parallel
• 1:15:14
  with sports betting. yes and dan says the modern
• 1:15:18
  hobby turning base cards into literal trash is
• 1:15:22
  one of the worst sins of the hobby and i mean
• 1:15:25
  it's funny because not so funny but i think dan
• 1:15:28
  is right and i remember again before breaking
• 1:15:33
  was really big guys i remember going to the lcs
• 1:15:36
  for trade night or other or whatever day seeing
• 1:15:39
  people opening up boxes looking for the hits
• 1:15:42
  and leaving the base on the counter behind and
• 1:15:44
  going home literal trash to the point where a
• 1:15:48
  lot of products have changed from being straight
• 1:15:51
  hit products like upper deck the cup you're getting
• 1:15:54
  six cars every card is numbered there's no real
• 1:15:56
  base the base is limited to 249. you know there
• 1:16:00
  are there are literal products that are only
• 1:16:02
  hits now so okay lots there go ahead joe well
• 1:16:08
  i just want to give the counterpoint to the breakers
• 1:16:11
  created i i it's it's sort of like the hand feeding
• 1:16:14
  the hand feeding the hand right i mean yes that's
• 1:16:18
  a good counterpoint jaylee like when the card
• 1:16:21
  manufacturers saw that they were sort of missing
• 1:16:25
  part of the opportunity to cash in they started
• 1:16:31
  to up the prices and the dance commenced but
• 1:16:35
  i i do think like i want the card manufacturers
• 1:16:40
  to have more integrity than at least some of
• 1:16:44
  the breakers i i don't want to lump all breakers
• 1:16:47
  together because i i do think there are more
• 1:16:50
  upstanding and less upstanding versions but i
• 1:16:53
  you know the the manufacturers don't have to
• 1:16:55
  cave do they do they really have to cave i mean
• 1:16:58
  there because there is some degree of relationship
• 1:17:01
  between what the what the retail price is and
• 1:17:06
  what the breakers do or else At some point, you
• 1:17:09
  know, there's going to be people not wanting
• 1:17:11
  to enter those breaks because they could just
• 1:17:13
  buy the boxes. So I mean, who do you want to
• 1:17:16
  be held responsible? Do you want Backyard's breaks
• 1:17:19
  to be the responsible one or do you want Topps
• 1:17:22
  to be the responsible one? I'd like to think
• 1:17:24
  Topps has more long term investment in that.
• 1:17:27
  And Alyx, I'm sorry, because this is in some
• 1:17:31
  ways immaterial to your work, which is, again.
• 1:17:36
  And the addictive nature of it all, it's all
• 1:17:38
  addictive and it can all ruin lives. We're just
• 1:17:41
  talking degrees over here. Yeah, no, of course.
• 1:17:45
  Yeah, Joe, you're 100 % right, or at least I
• 1:17:48
  should say I agree with you 100%. And some, there's
• 1:17:53
  a, yeah, here it is. Mid Atlantic says, Jay Lee,
• 1:17:56
  breakers may have come first, but the manufacturers
• 1:17:58
  are pouring kerosene on the fire. Of course they
• 1:18:01
  are. They are profit driven and they are often
• 1:18:05
  very short sighted. Right. They are looking to
• 1:18:08
  keep their jobs. They are looking to increase
• 1:18:11
  their annual bonuses. They are looking to deliver
• 1:18:14
  shareholder value in the near term to keep stock
• 1:18:17
  price up or at least shareholder value if it's
• 1:18:20
  a private company. So, yeah, they they are profit
• 1:18:24
  driven. Like, you know, Foulball says. You know,
• 1:18:28
  I don't use eBay or auction houses. And then
• 1:18:30
  James Wynn says, are you even collecting them?
• 1:18:33
  Like, you know, the thing is, is that this isn't
• 1:18:37
  a hobby, guys. Like, it's an industry. And Fowlball
• 1:18:43
  is very fortunate. He's found his hobby within
• 1:18:46
  it. He still comes here every Saturday night
• 1:18:48
  to watch and be a part of the show. And I think
• 1:18:51
  he's like, you know, frustrated because he doesn't
• 1:18:54
  like a lot of what he sees. But this is... This
• 1:18:57
  is a hobby that everyone experiences in their
• 1:18:59
  own unique way. And it lives within an industry.
• 1:19:04
  This isn't a hobby overall anymore, guys. It's
• 1:19:07
  an industry. You have to realize that. That might
• 1:19:10
  be the first thing to realize that everybody
• 1:19:12
  wants your money. Everybody, the grading companies,
• 1:19:15
  the supply companies, the breakers, the LCSs,
• 1:19:18
  the online casinos, everybody wants your money.
• 1:19:22
  The auction houses, everybody wants your money.
• 1:19:25
  It can be a hobby. It's a hobby if you make it
• 1:19:29
  a hobby. If you have the power to make it a hobby
• 1:19:32
  and not let it become an addiction, not let it
• 1:19:34
  become your financial ruin, enjoy it in your
• 1:19:38
  own way. Enjoy it as productively as well as
• 1:19:41
  you can. But guys, it's a hobby that exists in
• 1:19:46
  an industry that is profit -driven. The manufacturers,
• 1:19:51
  in many cases, I'd love to have a conversation
• 1:19:54
  with like a Michael Rubin or whoever the head
• 1:19:57
  of Panini is and ask like, you know, are you
• 1:20:01
  thinking long term the way a lot of us voices
• 1:20:05
  in the hobby are? We want this hobby to last
• 1:20:08
  for 100, 200 years or whatever indefinitely because
• 1:20:12
  we love it. We think other people will love it.
• 1:20:14
  But if all it is is a path to financial ruin,
• 1:20:18
  then people won't love it as much. Thankfully,
• 1:20:20
  many people, maybe most, have it under control
• 1:20:24
  and have found a way to not lose their relationships
• 1:20:29
  their financial well -being and all that in it
• 1:20:31
  but again i stress guys this is an industry we
• 1:20:34
  call it the hobby jokes on us jokes on us because
• 1:20:38
  it's an it's a it's an industry and we are the
• 1:20:41
  hobby within it but it's up to us to not let
• 1:20:44
  the industry get the better of us on an individual
• 1:20:46
  level Alyx i'd like you to kind of put some finishing
• 1:20:49
  touches on this if you will And then we're going
• 1:20:53
  to wrap up this part of the show. Yeah. Both
• 1:20:58
  of you guys just brought up so many great points.
• 1:21:01
  You know, one thing I want to touch on real quick
• 1:21:03
  before, you know, we sort of close up here is
• 1:21:07
  that one of the biggest problems in the hobby
• 1:21:09
  right now is that there is no real governing
• 1:21:12
  body overlooking what anybody's doing. Manufacturers,
• 1:21:16
  platforms, breakers, right? Unlike other industries.
• 1:21:19
  like gambling or investing which have oversight
• 1:21:22
  from like a gaming commission or the sec the
• 1:21:25
  card world operates in this sort of gray area
• 1:21:28
  right breakers marketplaces again manufacturers
• 1:21:31
  they basically can do whatever they want with
• 1:21:34
  zero regulation and zero accountability so that
• 1:21:37
  means no licensing requirements for breakers
• 1:21:39
  no consumer protections for buyers no rules around
• 1:21:42
  transparency odds of pricing and no consequences
• 1:21:45
  for predatory behavior all things we've been
• 1:21:48
  talking about right and because there's big money
• 1:21:50
  involved like you you said Jeremy no one at the
• 1:21:53
  top has much incentive to change it like why
• 1:21:56
  would michael rubin change anything when they're
• 1:21:59
  just breaking in the dough and nobody's saying
• 1:22:01
  anything everyone benefits from keeping the system
• 1:22:03
  as is especially when the system favors hype
• 1:22:06
  over honesty so until there's a structure that
• 1:22:09
  holds companies and creators accountable the
• 1:22:12
  same way we expect in gambling or financial industries
• 1:22:15
  like you said Jeremy this is an industry right
• 1:22:18
  collectors especially younger or more vulnerable
• 1:22:21
  ones are left unprotected and and another great
• 1:22:25
  point there are most people in the hobby most
• 1:22:28
  people in this space are responsible and are
• 1:22:31
  able to be accountable and control themselves
• 1:22:35
  but there's still going to be no matter how you
• 1:22:38
  slice it a handful of people you know we don't
• 1:22:42
  know exactly what that percentage looks like
• 1:22:44
  yet but there are enough people it's enough of
• 1:22:47
  a problem where we need to step up and do something
• 1:22:51
  about it so it's again it's like playing a game
• 1:22:55
  where where the house always win wins and there's
• 1:22:58
  there's just no referees and it's the uh the
• 1:23:01
  reality of it and and you know again like Until
• 1:23:05
  something changes, until there's real reform,
• 1:23:08
  we're just going to continue to see this hobby
• 1:23:11
  spiral in a negative direction. And one last
• 1:23:15
  thing I'll say there, it'll be much better suited
• 1:23:18
  for the big players, the platforms and the manufacturers
• 1:23:20
  and the breakers, for them to adapt to what we're
• 1:23:23
  trying to do here versus somebody like a governing
• 1:23:29
  body like an SEC or a gaming commission to come
• 1:23:31
  in and just completely... strip it of you know
• 1:23:36
  everything and just change it up however they
• 1:23:38
  see fit like nobody's gonna want that we don't
• 1:23:41
  i don't want that so we just need to be more
• 1:23:43
  proactive we being you know all of all of these
• 1:23:47
  higher powers so um you know there's there's
• 1:23:50
  a few things i just wanted to uh mention in terms
• 1:23:54
  of like what we offer before uh before i sort
• 1:23:58
  of close out and leave here um first and foremost
• 1:24:01
  we we mentioned this earlier we run weekly peer
• 1:24:04
  support meetings um if you're interested in joining
• 1:24:07
  one of those you can visit collectorsmd .com
• 1:24:10
  and then under resources you just click on weekly
• 1:24:13
  meetings and it'll take you to a google form
• 1:24:15
  where you fill out the information and from there
• 1:24:17
  we can add you to these these uh group discussions
• 1:24:20
  which again are really really helpful and really
• 1:24:22
  impactful especially for those that need it we
• 1:24:25
  also put out daily reflection and educational
• 1:24:27
  content on a daily basis uh this is bite -sized
• 1:24:31
  posts that sort of help you pause reflect and
• 1:24:33
  approach collecting with more intention it's
• 1:24:36
  not overly preachy it's just honest and it's
• 1:24:38
  stuff we sort of wish existed when you know we
• 1:24:42
  were going through the struggle ourselves we
• 1:24:44
  also i have our own podcast which Jeremy would
• 1:24:46
  love you know to have you on at some point in
• 1:24:48
  the future where we sit down with collectors
• 1:24:50
  industry voices mental health professionals to
• 1:24:53
  sort of unpack what's really going on in the
• 1:24:55
  hobby basically just more or less what we discussed
• 1:24:57
  tonight uh it's not about hype it's not about
• 1:24:59
  like highlight reels it's just real talk with
• 1:25:03
  real people um And we're also working with some
• 1:25:06
  really great partners. We partnered with a company
• 1:25:10
  called Burgess Health, which is a professional
• 1:25:12
  online clinic that offers support for people
• 1:25:16
  with gambling addiction. And so that sort of
• 1:25:19
  layers in a sense of professional therapy for
• 1:25:23
  people that might need it within our space, because
• 1:25:26
  I'm not a licensed therapist. We've also partnered
• 1:25:29
  with Gamban. They basically... allow you to block
• 1:25:34
  certain software on your phone and what has always
• 1:25:38
  been gambling for them they've now added what
• 1:25:40
  not Fanatics among several other apps that you
• 1:25:44
  know basically you can limit yourself in terms
• 1:25:47
  of how much time you're spending within those
• 1:25:49
  within those apps and so you know if you're a
• 1:25:54
  part of an aligned organization or platform and
• 1:25:57
  just want to help create a healthier hobby ecosystem
• 1:26:00
  where we're always open to conversations um and
• 1:26:03
  at the end of the day you know this is all about
• 1:26:05
  community accountability and healing and we're
• 1:26:08
  here to remind people that again you can still
• 1:26:10
  love the hobby and protect your peace at the
• 1:26:12
  same time Alyx what's what's your mantra i know
• 1:26:15
  you have a mantra at Collectors MD collect with
• 1:26:17
  intention not compulsion and uh collect with
• 1:26:21
  intention heal with support I love it. I love
• 1:26:24
  it. Before we let you go, and then we're going
• 1:26:26
  to bring on Chris Hoj and Josh Adams, I want
• 1:26:29
  to just get some more comments sort of out of
• 1:26:31
  the way that I've marked for inclusion here,
• 1:26:34
  Alyx. So hang tight. Josh and Chris, give me
• 1:26:37
  five more minutes. Joe, grab some more popcorn.
• 1:26:40
  Here we go. Mid Atlantic says, Jay Lee, breakers
• 1:26:43
  may have come first, but the manufacturer, oh,
• 1:26:45
  we did that one, but the manufacturer pouring
• 1:26:46
  kerosene on the fire. Yeah. Well, not only that,
• 1:26:49
  they're customizing products just for them. uh
• 1:26:53
  okay next up midlife says give the base cards
• 1:26:57
  to your local elementary school teachers can
• 1:26:59
  use them for math and for prizes yeah give them
• 1:27:02
  out on halloween also give chocolates and potato
• 1:27:04
  chips but give them out on halloween to kids
• 1:27:07
  in your neighborhoods i've been doing that for
• 1:27:08
  decades ziggy no says breaking started as friends
• 1:27:11
  and a recorded video wasn't even live i mean
• 1:27:14
  guys this was in the late 00s this wasn't even
• 1:27:16
  in the 2010s breaking has been around since like
• 1:27:18
  08 or so, if I remember correctly. Linda Spurs
• 1:27:21
  says, without breakers, singles collectors like
• 1:27:23
  myself would not have as many cards available.
• 1:27:26
  And I do agree with that, but the hobby would
• 1:27:29
  be so different. Who knows what we would be getting
• 1:27:31
  at that point? 1956 Tops Guy says, everyone wants
• 1:27:34
  your money, but some components leverage deficiencies
• 1:27:38
  of the human mind to push people into dangerous
• 1:27:41
  financial mental territory. That's where I have
• 1:27:43
  an issue. That's what this whole show has been
• 1:27:45
  about. So while this whole episode has been about
• 1:27:46
  so far, Matthew. Yeah, we all definitely agree
• 1:27:49
  with that. Dog Food Soup says, I love that name,
• 1:27:52
  has the proliferation of group breakers led to
• 1:27:55
  what seems like a huge increase in the amount
• 1:27:56
  of card shows? I was blown away by the number
• 1:27:59
  of local shows when I looked recently. And I
• 1:28:02
  do think there is a correlation there, but the
• 1:28:04
  overall growth is just a part of it. Chris from
• 1:28:06
  Missouri, welcome to the show and thank you very
• 1:28:08
  much. Brett Miles says, yeah, Jeremy well said,
• 1:28:11
  I get to control how I enjoy the hobby. The moment
• 1:28:13
  that you feel someone else. whether it's industry,
• 1:28:16
  breakers, shops, online, controls how you were
• 1:28:18
  involved in the hobby. That is a huge red flag.
• 1:28:21
  Dave H says, with the amount of info now, we
• 1:28:24
  can get the case prices, add up the team prices,
• 1:28:27
  see what a breaker is making. If you don't like
• 1:28:29
  it, don't do business with them. I stopped buying
• 1:28:31
  with some because of it. And that's where, you
• 1:28:34
  know, the odds are different based on how much
• 1:28:36
  you're spending for the same spot. Mid Atlantic
• 1:28:38
  says, baseball cards stopped being a kid's hobby
• 1:28:40
  many, many years ago. It's a big business wrapped
• 1:28:42
  in. Bro culture and devoid of oversight. Yeah,
• 1:28:45
  bingo. And Phoenix Rising says, Alyx, what's
• 1:28:48
  your YouTube channel? Go ahead. I dropped that
• 1:28:53
  in the chat, but it is youtube .com slash at
• 1:28:59
  Collectors MD. Appreciate that. There you go.
• 1:29:03
  Okay. Well, this has been great, Alyx. I want
• 1:29:07
  to thank you for coming on and continuing the
• 1:29:11
  discussion. I think that... I think that what
• 1:29:13
  you are doing is the most likely catalyst of
• 1:29:18
  seeing some sort of actual material effective
• 1:29:21
  change, even if it is simply warnings before
• 1:29:25
  you cash out on an app or on a website. Whatever
• 1:29:29
  it is you're doing, not whatever it is, what
• 1:29:31
  you are doing, I think it's important, guys.
• 1:29:34
  Like I said, I think it's important. I think
• 1:29:37
  it's important for our fellow hobbyists who are...
• 1:29:42
  who maybe lack the the strength to stop when
• 1:29:46
  they should and i think it's important for the
• 1:29:48
  longevity of the hobby overall as well so Alyx
• 1:29:51
  thank you for what you're doing thank you for
• 1:29:53
  your time tonight uh it's been great having you
• 1:29:55
  thank you both Jeremy joe this has been an absolute
• 1:29:59
  pleasure thank you to everybody in the chat too
• 1:30:00
  you guys were great um you know ziggy thanks
• 1:30:03
  as always uh just for being super uh insightful
• 1:30:06
  and sharing your um your opinions on everything.
• 1:30:12
  We appreciate all of the support. Again, if you
• 1:30:16
  want to learn more about Collectors MD, you check
• 1:30:18
  us out on social media or collectorsmd .com.
• 1:30:21
  We are here to help. That's all it is. It's all
• 1:30:23
  about spreading positive awareness and just reinforcing
• 1:30:26
  that the hobby is a great place. We just want
• 1:30:29
  to make sure that we are collecting with intention
• 1:30:31
  and not compulsion. I love it, Alyx. Are you
• 1:30:34
  going to be the national? I'm not this year,
• 1:30:36
  but we definitely are. talking about you know
• 1:30:40
  preparing uh to have presence at not just the
• 1:30:46
  national but Fanatics fest amongst other card
• 1:30:48
  shows in the future Alyx thank you again for
• 1:30:51
  your time thank you for what you were doing uh
• 1:30:53
  keep in touch we'll talk soon absolutely thanks
• 1:30:55
  guys have a good night take care carry on all
• 1:30:58
  right guys that was Alyx Joe