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Trump’s red card intervention in the World Cup · The Morning Edition

• 0:06
  S1: Allegations of cheating and sporting corruption have followed the revelation
• 0:11
  S1: that Donald Trump intervened in the World Cup to overturn
• 0:14
  S1: the suspension of an American player. But the ramifications of
• 0:19
  S1: this unprecedented event might far outlast the cup. I'm Samantha
• 0:25
  S1: Selinger Morris, and you're listening to The Morning Edition from
• 0:28
  S1: The Age and the Sydney Morning Herald. Today, Sydney Morning
• 0:32
  S1: Herald deputy editor Nick Ralston and North America correspondent Michael
• 0:37
  S1: Koziol on the worldwide cheers against the USA that followed
• 0:41
  S1: this intervention. And if it marks a nadir for Trump supporters. Welcome,
• 0:51
  S1: Nick and Michael to the podcast.
• 0:53
  S2: Good to be here.
• 0:54
  S3: Thanks, Samantha.
• 0:55
  S1: Okay, so I don't know why I'm surprised that Donald
• 0:58
  S1: Trump has yet again intervened in a pretty remarkable way
• 1:02
  S1: on the world stage. And yet here, of course we are. So, Nick,
• 1:05
  S1: let's start with you. What happened with the American president
• 1:09
  S1: and this red card incident at the World Cup?
• 1:12
  S2: Yeah. So the US had been having something of a
• 1:14
  S2: successful World Cup. They obviously one of the three co-hosts
• 1:18
  S2: a lot of pressure and expectation on them. But they
• 1:21
  S2: had performed reasonably well. They had that um well that
• 1:23
  S2: unfortunate uh two nil win over the Socceroos. They got
• 1:27
  S2: through the group stage. They did lose to Turkey but
• 1:29
  S2: did it reasonably easily. And what was a competitive group?
• 1:32
  S2: They played their first knockout round of 32 game against Bosnia. Uh,
• 1:37
  S2: and they were sort of cruising in that as well. Uh,
• 1:39
  S2: Florian Bellingham who's been something of a sort of a
• 1:42
  S2: standout for the US team, scored one uh, had one disallowed,
• 1:46
  S2: but then in the 61st minute got into a bit
• 1:49
  S2: of a tangle with a Bosnian defender, uh, landed awkwardly
• 1:53
  S2: sort of on the back of his, uh, leg towards
• 1:56
  S2: his ankle. The referee took a look and gave him
• 1:59
  S2: a red card. Uh, I was sent off. There wasn't.
• 2:03
  S2: There was in the US media after that about how
• 2:05
  S2: there was sort of no real, uh, avenue for the
• 2:08
  S2: US to appeal this decision, and it looked as if
• 2:11
  S2: the US would go into their next round of 16
• 2:13
  S2: knockout game against Belgium without their, their star attacker. And then, uh,
• 2:18
  S2: sort of somewhat out of nowhere, uh, we got this
• 2:20
  S2: sort of, uh, breaking news came to our phones saying that, uh,
• 2:24
  S2: Malagon would be able to play against Belgium. And, uh,
• 2:27
  S2: Donald Trump was very quick to sort of congratulate and
• 2:30
  S2: thank FIFA for doing so, which I think, uh, got
• 2:33
  S2: everyone's sort of suspicions up.
• 2:35
  S1: Absolutely. I mean, I've heard people refer to this as
• 2:38
  S1: a presidential pardon in terms of his sway in getting
• 2:41
  S1: this red card overturned. But, Michael, I think it's fair
• 2:44
  S1: to say there's a lot more to it than just
• 2:46
  S1: Trump's intervention. Right. So tell us, I guess, about how
• 2:50
  S1: big of a governmental effort was this to get the
• 2:53
  S1: red card overturned?
• 2:55
  S3: It was a full court press. Uh, so Andrew Giuliani,
• 2:59
  S3: who was the guy that Donald Trump put in charge
• 3:01
  S3: of the white House World Cup task force. He's the
• 3:05
  S3: son of former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani, also a
• 3:09
  S3: Trump acolyte, and used to be one of his lawyers. Anyway,
• 3:13
  S3: so Andrew Giuliani, in an interview with ESPN in the
• 3:17
  S3: last 24 hours, basically said, look, as soon as we
• 3:20
  S3: got on the plane after that Bosnia game, we were
• 3:25
  S3: on the phone to lawyers contacting lawyers, trying to work
• 3:28
  S3: out how to appeal this decision. He was on the
• 3:31
  S3: plane with Howard Lutnick, Donald Trump's commerce secretary, another well-connected guy,
• 3:36
  S3: another billionaire. So they were contacting lawyers. Other people got involved.
• 3:41
  S3: The New York Times has done some reporting about a
• 3:43
  S3: guy called Scott Goodwin, uh, another rich guy, hedge fund manager,
• 3:47
  S3: big soccer donor here in the US. Um, and he's
• 3:50
  S3: the guy, apparently, according to the New York Times who
• 3:53
  S3: brought to the White House's attention, um, these former accusations,
• 3:58
  S3: old accusations against the referee in that US Bosnia game. Raphael,
• 4:03
  S3: Klaus and Trump had something about to say about that
• 4:05
  S3: today during his little Q and A in the white
• 4:08
  S3: House basically saying, you know, this guy's very suspect.
• 4:12
  S4: And this referee who is a little bit suspect if
• 4:19
  S4: you check his if you check his past. I don't
• 4:22
  S4: want to say that because I don't like to create controversy,
• 4:26
  S4: but but very suspect.
• 4:28
  S3: Of course, those allegations were were not were not upheld.
• 4:32
  S3: In the end, he was cleared, but Trump brought it
• 4:35
  S3: up anyway. So there was a big effort, lots across government,
• 4:39
  S3: lots of people involved. And, you know, to be fair,
• 4:42
  S3: the US soccer team is allowed to appeal this decision.
• 4:46
  S3: They're allowed to put their case to FIFA. But it
• 4:48
  S3: seems in this case, they got a lot of help
• 4:50
  S3: from people throughout the government, including obviously, as we've spoken
• 4:53
  S3: about from the very, very top of the US government
• 4:56
  S3: in Donald Trump. And that is extremely unusual.
• 4:59
  S4: How do you penalize them for a game that hasn't
• 5:01
  S4: been played yet. It's very unfair. You can't do that.
• 5:03
  S4: So yes, I asked for a review by FIFA. I
• 5:08
  S4: spoke to a man who's highly respected and by the way,
• 5:11
  S4: who's level of respect has gone up tenfold. And he
• 5:16
  S4: was good before this started. But, you know, he really
• 5:19
  S4: pushed it in this country. I'm the one that got
• 5:21
  S4: them to do it.
• 5:27
  S1: And so, Nick, I want to turn to you because,
• 5:29
  S1: of course, the end result was that Balogun was allowed
• 5:32
  S1: to play in this match against Belgium, which kicked off
• 5:35
  S1: on Tuesday morning. Our time. So how much of a part,
• 5:38
  S1: I guess, did Donald Trump's intervention play in him actually
• 5:42
  S1: playing this match?
• 5:43
  S2: Look, I think everything indicates that Trump's intervention played a
• 5:46
  S2: major role in him being able to play. But I
• 5:48
  S2: think probably FIFA has been saved by the Belgian football team.
• 5:52
  S2: Belgium winning four one means the US are out of
• 5:54
  S2: the tournament. And look, I don't think it ends the
• 5:56
  S2: discussion there. I think that there will be a lot
• 5:58
  S2: more of this still to play out. We've had some
• 6:00
  S2: pretty senior figures within the game, including UEFA, which is
• 6:04
  S2: the European body that oversees football there. Thomas Tuchel, the
• 6:08
  S2: coach of England, pretty much any other sort of big
• 6:11
  S2: name manager who's given a press conference since this decision
• 6:15
  S2: has been made, has come out and spoken out against it.
• 6:17
  S2: So in some ways, probably the integrity of the tournament
• 6:21
  S2: has been saved by Belgium beating the US four one.
• 6:24
  S2: Balogun did play. He didn't play very well. Uh, the
• 6:27
  S2: US didn't play very well. So I think it's you know,
• 6:30
  S2: the US was already sort of I guess on many
• 6:32
  S2: Australian soccer fans, uh, enemy list. Uh, there was a
• 6:35
  S2: lot of tension and build up between Australia and the
• 6:38
  S2: Socceroos for that clash in Seattle. So I don't know
• 6:40
  S2: if there'll be too many sympathetic Australian soccer fans with
• 6:44
  S2: how this has played out for the US, but I
• 6:46
  S2: think that this has definitely overshadowed their performance. And I
• 6:48
  S2: don't know if there was many, if any, neutral soccer
• 6:51
  S2: fans that would have been, uh, on the US side today.
• 6:54
  S2: So look, it's all come to nothing really, except that
• 6:57
  S2: it put FIFA's integrity under spotlight and the influence of
• 7:01
  S2: Trump on forefront and the spotlight as well.
• 7:03
  S1: And just to play devil's advocate for just a moment, Nick,
• 7:06
  S1: I mean, is there any chance that Trump actually did
• 7:08
  S1: have a case. Is there a case to be made
• 7:10
  S1: that the referee did err in issuing Balogun with a
• 7:13
  S1: red card? Because I certainly have seen sport commentators, some
• 7:17
  S1: of them saying that he thought the ref made the
• 7:19
  S1: wrong decision. Although my understanding is within the world of FIFA,
• 7:23
  S1: there's an understanding it's subjective and that if the ref
• 7:26
  S1: calls a red card, it's stood by and that you
• 7:28
  S1: don't appeal it. Obviously that's not what happened in this case.
• 7:31
  S1: But does Trump have a case?
• 7:33
  S2: Well, look, there's been 13 red cards this World Cup
• 7:37
  S2: which is quite a lot by tournament standards. This is
• 7:40
  S2: the only one that people are talking about. It doesn't
• 7:43
  S2: really matter at the end of the day, if it's
• 7:45
  S2: a red card, it's a red card. You know, the
• 7:47
  S2: video VAR were the one that sort of awarded it.
• 7:50
  S2: Decisions made, and you sort of have to accept that decision.
• 7:53
  S2: Football's built on discussion and controversy around decisions like this.
• 7:59
  S2: And I think that if you're going to have instances
• 8:01
  S2: like this, I this. I think it's the first time
• 8:03
  S2: since 1962 that a red card has ever been suspended
• 8:06
  S2: like this. And like I said, there's been 13 this tournament.
• 8:08
  S2: There's probably cases where also question marks have been put on, on,
• 8:12
  S2: on some of those, the other 12. But I think
• 8:15
  S2: once the red cards given, then that's sort of the
• 8:17
  S2: the final decision, the one game suspension should have stood and, uh,
• 8:20
  S2: and it should never have happened. I think everyone was
• 8:23
  S2: sort of, you know, totally blown away by what, what
• 8:27
  S2: has gone on here. And, and Trump picking up the
• 8:29
  S2: phone to, uh, Gianni Infantino, the president of FIFA, have
• 8:33
  S2: not heard of this happening, uh, ever before. And, uh,
• 8:36
  S2: it's hard to imagine that it would happen, uh, possibly
• 8:38
  S2: with any other two people except for, for Trump and
• 8:41
  S2: his mate Gianni, Gianni Infantino. And it sort of goes
• 8:44
  S2: to this, I guess, feeling that the Americans, you know,
• 8:48
  S2: aren't a serious, uh, football or soccer nation and don't
• 8:50
  S2: understand how the sport works. Uh, which has sort of
• 8:53
  S2: been a bit of an undercurrent, a bit of Euro, uh, snobbery,
• 8:56
  S2: possibly towards North American soccer fans. I think there's sort
• 9:00
  S2: of a, a feeling that the Americans don't understand how
• 9:03
  S2: the game properly works. And this is not this is
• 9:05
  S2: not the done thing in football.
• 9:09
  S1: After the break.
• 9:10
  S3: If you liked him, you think he did a great
• 9:13
  S3: thing standing up for his country and going into bat
• 9:15
  S3: for one of his countrymen. And if you don't like Trump,
• 9:18
  S3: you think that he's, um, you know, embarrassed the country
• 9:21
  S3: on the world stage yet again.
• 9:31
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• 9:34
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• 9:48
  S5: Virginia, a podcast from the newsrooms of The age, The
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• 9:59
  S1: So, Michael, I just want to turn to you now
• 10:01
  S1: because we've talked a little bit about in this conversation
• 10:04
  S1: about how there's probably not many Australian fans that are
• 10:06
  S1: going to be mourning what's happened here and whether this
• 10:10
  S1: sort of, I guess, continues on this controversy lives on,
• 10:13
  S1: even though, of course, America has lost the match, might,
• 10:15
  S1: for instance, this prevailing anti-U.S. sentiment that's resulted from Trump's
• 10:20
  S1: intervention like, could that cost Trump politically?
• 10:24
  S3: Oh, I don't think so. I mean, I think in
• 10:29
  S3: the US, opinion is has been settled on Trump for
• 10:33
  S3: a very long time, probably for about ten years. Um,
• 10:36
  S3: and there's very few things that kind of move the
• 10:38
  S3: dial on him personally among Americans. I mean, you know,
• 10:42
  S3: if you like Trump, you think he did a great
• 10:44
  S3: thing standing up for his country and going into bat
• 10:46
  S3: for one of his countrymen and, you know, for the
• 10:49
  S3: the hope of Assad. Um, and if you don't like Trump,
• 10:52
  S3: you think that he's, um, you know, embarrassed the country
• 10:55
  S3: on the world stage yet again. And, um, you know,
• 10:58
  S3: I mean, there are some people that talk about Trump
• 11:00
  S3: curse when it comes to sport, mainly to do with
• 11:03
  S3: the Kansas City Chiefs in the NFL who, whenever Trump
• 11:06
  S3: gets involved, seem to start losing. But, um. Uh, yeah, look,
• 11:10
  S3: I mean, I, you know, I think people who believe
• 11:13
  S3: that Donald Trump has brought the US into disrepute around
• 11:15
  S3: the world have thought that for a long time. So
• 11:17
  S3: I don't necessarily see any political consequences for him. I mean,
• 11:21
  S3: in terms of ongoing consequences in the tournament itself, there's
• 11:26
  S3: an English player who got a red card in their
• 11:30
  S3: match last night against Mexico, and I don't know if
• 11:32
  S3: anything's come of that in the last couple of hours, but, uh, England,
• 11:36
  S3: British politicians are now saying, well, we need to challenge
• 11:39
  S3: this red card ahead of England's next match. So, you know,
• 11:44
  S3: all red cards are now kind of up in the air. Why?
• 11:46
  S3: Why don't we put a challenge forth and see what
• 11:49
  S3: we can get, uh, see if we can get the
• 11:50
  S3: suspension overturned. And who knows what could happen in the next,
• 11:54
  S3: you know, week, week or two down the pointy end
• 11:57
  S3: of the tournament. So, yes, I mean, you know, there
• 11:59
  S3: could be flow on effects within the World Cup itself.
• 12:02
  S1: And Mike and Nick. Just to wrap up, I'll throw
• 12:04
  S1: this last question to both of you. I'm just wondering
• 12:06
  S1: if you could reflect, I guess, on just how this
• 12:09
  S1: story has blown up, because of course, we've seen allegations
• 12:12
  S1: of sporting corruption and that the integrity of this particular
• 12:16
  S1: World Cup has been absolutely harmed by this incident. But
• 12:20
  S1: I'm just wondering, I guess, about political reflections on this.
• 12:23
  S1: You know, is this yet another example of this American president,
• 12:28
  S1: I guess, wielding his power in ways that are unprecedented
• 12:31
  S1: in American presidency? I mean, do you think this is
• 12:33
  S1: how people are feeling it? I don't know if you've
• 12:36
  S1: been noticing that on the ground, Nick, you were just
• 12:37
  S1: covering the World Cup in America and elsewhere. And Michael,
• 12:42
  S1: you of course, are in Washington now, but you were
• 12:44
  S1: at the match, I believe in Seattle. Like what what
• 12:46
  S1: are people feeling?
• 12:48
  S2: Look, there was a lot of concerns going into this
• 12:50
  S2: World Cup about certain issues. I think about how some
• 12:54
  S2: countries would be treated. We saw a lot of talk about,
• 12:56
  S2: you know, the Iranian football team and what they've had
• 12:59
  S2: to do. They weren't obviously allowed to stay in America.
• 13:02
  S2: They were going to be based in Arizona. They were
• 13:03
  S2: forced to go to Mexico and fly in and out.
• 13:06
  S2: You know, the day of the match and or the
• 13:07
  S2: day after the match, etc.. And I think talking to
• 13:10
  S2: people that were over there for the World Cup, I
• 13:13
  S2: think it was sort of a bit of an apprehension
• 13:15
  S2: before the tournament began, but there wasn't really any sort
• 13:18
  S2: of sight or mention of Donald Trump in relation to
• 13:21
  S2: the World Cup up until this moment. And look, the
• 13:25
  S2: tournament has has not been without its faults. And there
• 13:28
  S2: has been, you know, some some controversies and that in
• 13:30
  S2: the background. But but by and large, I think fans
• 13:34
  S2: were sort of happy that this hadn't become a Donald
• 13:37
  S2: Trump circus and that the football was allowed to play out.
• 13:40
  S2: That's obviously all changed now in the last sort of
• 13:43
  S2: 48 hours or so. But yeah, it's unfortunate. I mean,
• 13:47
  S2: you know, they had controversies around the World Cup in
• 13:50
  S2: 2018 in Russia in 2022 and Qatar. And I think
• 13:54
  S2: when this one was awarded, the North America was sort
• 13:56
  S2: of seen as going to be the sort of more
• 13:58
  S2: straightforward World Cup and obviously world events, uh, in the
• 14:02
  S2: ten years since the US and Mexico and Canada were
• 14:04
  S2: awarded the, um, the tournament, uh, considerably. But look, I
• 14:08
  S2: think this has left a bit of a sour taste
• 14:11
  S2: in people's mouths. And like I said, I think if, uh,
• 14:13
  S2: if the US had won today, then, um, I think
• 14:16
  S2: it would also be, you know, a real sort of, um,
• 14:19
  S2: what would be interesting to see where the, where the
• 14:20
  S2: tournament went from there, given all the outrage, especially from
• 14:24
  S2: Belgium and UEFA about the decision. So I think in
• 14:27
  S2: many ways we're fortunate the US are out of the tournament.
• 14:30
  S2: And um, uh, hopefully the rest of it can proceed
• 14:32
  S2: without too many other interventions.
• 14:35
  S1: And Michael, what about you and what are your reflections
• 14:37
  S1: on this?
• 14:38
  S3: Well, it was reported a few days ago that, uh,
• 14:41
  S3: Donald Trump and possibly JD Vance were going to be
• 14:45
  S3: at that game in Seattle that we just watched the, uh,
• 14:49
  S3: us and Belgium game. Uh, that obviously didn't come to fruition, but, uh,
• 14:53
  S3: it would have been fascinating, uh, if he had attended
• 14:56
  S3: to see what reception he would have received. He is still,
• 14:59
  S3: as far as we know, um, due to present the
• 15:02
  S3: trophy to the winner. Um, up in new Jersey on
• 15:06
  S3: what is it, July 18th. So, you know, be interesting
• 15:10
  S3: to see what reception he gets then from the two
• 15:13
  S3: non USA teams, whoever they turn out to be. I
• 15:16
  S3: mean look I think in some ways Donald Trump lifts
• 15:18
  S3: the lid on the way the system always has worked.
• 15:22
  S3: You know the way the power often operates in the background,
• 15:25
  S3: you know, powerful, wealthy, connected people call each other up
• 15:29
  S3: and ask for favors and skirt the rules. This happens
• 15:32
  S3: all the time with Donald Trump. It's just a lot
• 15:34
  S3: more overt. And then he'll go into the Oval Office
• 15:37
  S3: and just blurt out, uh, you know, the details about
• 15:40
  S3: exactly what transpired as if, you know, it was totally
• 15:44
  S3: fine and there was nothing untoward about it. And possibly
• 15:47
  S3: that's because he believes that there wasn't. He obviously recognized
• 15:51
  S3: it was not a good thing for him to be
• 15:52
  S3: seen to be pressuring Gianni Infantino because he said, you know,
• 15:56
  S3: he he stressed, um, I didn't tell him what to do. Um,
• 15:59
  S3: you know, I can't tell him what to do, but
• 16:02
  S3: he was perhaps not alert to the fact that you
• 16:04
  S3: know him as president, ringing up the head of FIFA
• 16:08
  S3: and requesting a review and, you know, whatever else he said, uh,
• 16:11
  S3: you know, carries a certain weight to it, let's say.
• 16:16
  S3: So I think in some ways, um, what we see
• 16:19
  S3: from Donald Trump is, is the way the system has
• 16:22
  S3: often works, but in a much more extreme way. He's
• 16:25
  S3: willing to push the boundaries of his power and of
• 16:29
  S3: the office as far as they can possibly be pushed. Uh,
• 16:32
  S3: and when we see that, of course, it is pretty ugly.
• 16:40
  S1: Thank you so much. I'm Michael and Nick for joining us.
• 16:44
  S2: Thank you.
• 16:45
  S3: No problem.
• 16:50
  S1: In other news, today, one of the nation's chief forecasters
• 16:54
  S1: has predicted that Australia faces its longest stretch of subpar
• 16:58
  S1: economic growth since the early 1990s recession. Days before a
• 17:03
  S1: Central Coast mother allegedly murdered her son. Caseworkers warned it
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  S1: was only a matter of time before a child died
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  S1: in the New South Wales region that's afflicted by drugs,
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  S1: mental health problems and a child protection regime in shambles.
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  S1: And midlife women used to report higher satisfaction with their
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  S1: bodies than younger women. But a new study has found
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  S1: that this has changed as grey divorce and anti-ageing messages
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  S1: have increased. You can read more at the age.com.au or smh.com.au.
• 17:37
  S1: Today's episode was produced by Kai Wong. Our executive producer
• 17:42
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