Latest / Making The Impact - A Dance Competition Podcast / A Conversation on Plagiarism in the Dance Industry with Jason Williams and Jared Baker - Part 2

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A Conversation on Plagiarism in the Dance Industry with Jason Williams and Jared Baker - Part 2 · Making The Impact - A Dance Competition Podcast

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: Have you ever wondered what goes on behind the table at a dance competition?
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly what are the judges looking for anyway?
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: This is Making the Impact, a dance competition podcast.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: Each week we'll cover a different topic related to the world of competitive dance from the perspective of the judges behind the table.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: Hello everyone, and welcome to Making the Impact a Dance Competition Podcast.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Courtney Ortiz, and I'm excited to share with you part two of our summer bonus episode.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: As you know, season four wrapped on June 1st.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: But since then, there have been some important conversations between headlines in the dance community when it comes to stolen choreography.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: Dance educators and choreographers Jason Williams and Jared Baker recently spoke out on social media about discovering that their choreography has been stolen and reproduced without their consent by others in the industry.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: We reached out to Jason and Jared to take the conversation one step further and invited them both to be guests on our podcast.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: We hope that by having these types of conversations on making the impact, we will continue to support and advocate for what's right in our industry.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: Help educate dancers and teachers on why you should not plagiarize choreography, and to encourage others to speak out when faced with difficult situations throughout their careers.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: If you haven't had a chance to listen to part one of this discussion, it releases last week on this podcast.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: We highly recommend catching up and listening to part one before heading into this episode.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like always, I'm joined by my co-host Leslie Miller on this discussion.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: So sit back and enjoy part two of our summer bonus episode.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: Social media can be a tool for good, it can be a tool for not so good.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: And that's one of those things that makes me really question how often this has happened for years and years and years without anybody knowing, because you just didn't have this kind of access, you know, for and I think it would have been harder, obviously, prior to social media, to even rip off somebody's work because you'd have to stare at it and have a photographic memory, you know, and remember it.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: But bring it on style.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: Just in the in the wings, you know, writing it down.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: But I think, Jason, I want to hear y'all a little bit more on why the the the creative versus whatever else other people are if they're not interested in creating something.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like, why do you think those people are in this industry in the first place if they're not interested in creating?
• 2:30
  unknown: Mm-hmm.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, money.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_03: That's that's all it is to it.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_03: You can you can put these dances out, especially in the competition world, like this the strict competition world.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_03: Like I think the studio that I was dealing with initially is just like a competition.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_03: You know, they just go and sit there all day and throw a bunch of dances on stage, and like there's no very limited artistry from them, not competition studios, but from them clearly, because I mean they even had like a pole.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_03: There was a pole in the number that the girls would like run and twirl, and they were in the teen category or junior.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_03: Someone said there was pole work, they were literally running up and jumping and sliding down the pole.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_03: Wow, and then there's my choreography happening.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, not my vision, not my vision.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_03: What is happening?
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, no, no.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, they're they you know, just to make to make their money, like these choreographers, choreographers, like you said, and it just takes it for the parents out there and the students, like just be mindful of like where you're learning and who you're learning from.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_03: Like, you know, I know that a lot of people grow up in spaces and they become family and then you know, it becomes a unit, but like, you know, if you're serious about dance in a way that is like what you want to do with your life, and you're serious about the art form and about doing it as a living, or even even if you're not, if you're just serious about like art in general, it's just something that you just like you should take note of.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_03: I was like you said, like it has happened before.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_03: I even as a judge, I'll see I always feel indifferent if someone comes on stage and does like a thriller dance and they just do thriller choreography.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, I mean, no, like I'm no, like do a version.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_03: Like you can do, like, you can do like an inspired buy, but if you're just like watching, like do that at the talent show, do it at the recital or something, like not even at the recital.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_03: Don't even do it recital because you buy tickets and there's a choreographer who choreographed this number.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_03: Like, just don't do that.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_03: That is not movement.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_02: Like, don't I feel like like something like thriller is like teach that in class and recognize this is the part of dance history, right?
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_04: The education aspect, yeah.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_03: Don't throw it in your choreography and like and I say it a lot, I say it a lot.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_03: I literally am the judge.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, this is appropriation in the speaker on the mic.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, you're appropriating this movement, you don't understand this movement, you're taking this movement that you saw, and you don't understand what you're doing, you're just doing it.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_03: And I can tell you you don't understand what you're doing because I'm watching you and I understand it, and I'm not seeing that.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not seeing that it was taught to you in a way where you're learning something, you're just emulating it and appropriating it.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_03: So I I mean it's just it's bad.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_03: It's even it's a contemporary, it's in hip hop, it's in it's in all the things.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, who's teaching you?
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think anyone's teaching you.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_03: They're just like giving you it's like copy and paste.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_03: And that's just not that's my qualm with a lot of studios that I see.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, get in there and teach.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_03: There are people who are willing to teach.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_03: Let me tell you, I was judging at the convention that I work for when Jared's piece came on stage.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_03: And I wish I could hear the audio of me probably screaming and crying during one of his numbers.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_03: I was gagged.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_03: And I judge it usually doesn't say much.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_03: You know, my mom always said, if you don't have any, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_03: So if there's not much that's happening that I have the correct verbiage for, sometimes you're you're trying to think of what to say, and you got two minutes and you're like, I don't want to say point your toes.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_03: I'm beyond saying point your toes.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not your teacher to tell you, like, if you're on a stage, you should point your toes.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like thank you for that.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_03: But I'm not saying point your toes.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not saying press your shoulders down or connect the posse.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_03: You should have that should that should not be what I'm seeing.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm there to talk about like the artistry and the intention and like what's what I'm feeling and what's happening.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_03: And a lot of the times I'm not feeling anything and I'm not seeing anything.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_03: But when I tell you Mr.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_03: Baker's number came on stage, y'all, it was so good.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_03: I was gagging so bad that when we were after the competition, like the other judges were like that, they like pointed him out to me because I was like, I have to tell you.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_03: Like, good job.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_03: Like that.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_03: Nice.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_03: There was this one number that I can think of.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_03: I get chills.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_03: I listened to it today.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_03: The song came on today because I love the song, and then his movement to it or his lack of movement to it, which was the real guy.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: We love the stillness moment.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_03: And I love Les.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_03: I'm Les is more for me in a way.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_03: And there was just like he was just genius.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_03: So, like, I mean, at least the girl who stole from you has good taste.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_03: And that's kind of that's kind of where I fall in into with it.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_03: Me, I'm like, oh, I mean, at least they got good taste.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_03: They, you know, they, you know, but is it right?
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_03: Should it be?
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_03: Should we be compensated a hundred percent?
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_03: Should we raise the flag and speak about it as much as we want to and should?
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_03: Like you said, I didn't, I was kind of like, oh gosh, this is does this look good for my brand to like be this person and to have this kind of attention?
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I'm usually a person that has like, you know, if you follow me, it's dance or love or something spiritual or something a little funny.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_03: Like it's it's a very lighthearted, you know, space, my my social media, unless it comes to like, you know, like injustices.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_03: I I speak up on those things.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_03: But like I was like, this is the attention that I want.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_03: I had a friend call me and she was like, Jason, this seems below you.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, Really?
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and she was like, it is blow.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, it is below me.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, but it needs to be done.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_03: And she was like, You're a hundred percent right.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_03: She was like, dealing with the people that you're dealing with, like you know, they it's them and they will be like this.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_03: And this this is how they are.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_03: And I've had multiple people reach out to me from the city and the town that the initial studio is from, and then they net no one's had anything good to say.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_03: No one's had anything good to say about the studio, the owner, the teachers.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_03: And so it's like, okay, you know, but I feel like the job was done, the deed was done.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_03: The you know, they can't walk around hiding from the fact that everyone knows.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_03: Everyone knows now, right?
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: They are now labeled.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they were all it sounds like they were already labeled with a bad reputation, and now it's gonna continue like it's even more, you know what I mean?
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_03: Like why your reputation's even more, you know, priceless than the movement, you know.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know why people think that that, you know, as a studio owner, that is your brand, that is your business.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: We talked about why they did this in the first place for money.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: Don't you realize how quickly that money can get ripped away from you when you create a bad reputation for your brand and your business?
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why do you like I it's such a small world?
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I just I I like the whole time you were sitting here talking about judging competition.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just thinking to myself, like, ooh, I wonder what would have happened if Jason was sitting on that judging panel and that dance would have walked on up.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like could you and the choreographer is probably just like sweating in their chair, like choreographer, excuse me, is like sweating and like dripping sweat, freaking out in the moment, hoping you don't realize.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like, come on, we can do so much better.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, you're in the wrong get out of here.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: It shouldn't have even happened.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_03: It would have been I'm glad that didn't happen because you probably would have got up and walked out of the the theater.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_03: Something to that effect, I'm sure.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: Jared, you talked a little bit about wanting to create a mentorship program for that university and having had mentors throughout your collegiate experience.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: What do you what would you like to sort of say to the studio owners out there and the teachers and anybody in charge of the next generation?
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: How can we, how can we as this generation of educators educate the younger generation who's gonna come up and some of them clearly think it's okay to steal choreography?
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: What what do we what do we do about that?
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think this this question like really encompasses a lot of what I had to say in response to Jason.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_02: But I think that we've created a culture that's about winning and about being the best or getting the most views uh or getting the most likes or the most attention.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_02: We've we've created, whether it was intentional or not, I think the competitive world and social media have come together to create this unintended version of what dance is supposed to be.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_02: And so pinballing of what of what Jason has talked about with appropriation and things like that, where I think a lot of studios are training to have their dancers win instead of training their dancers to be dancers.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_02: And so the first thought is we're we're just training.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_02: Well, why are we why are we thinking about what what is hot right now and what's gonna win?
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's gonna do you no good.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_02: Because at the end of the day, you have to have good training.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_02: You can't just be, you can't train for that one piece that's that's gonna get you somewhere, you know.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: My works don't succeed because they're winning pieces.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_02: My works succeed because I've trained my dancers to do the work properly, right?
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that there needs to be a mind, uh, a shift of mind and and what is the what you know, what are we really training these people for?
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_02: And it has to come back to the artistry, it has to come back to intention, it has to come back about what is this art formally about?
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_02: And it's about uh making people feel something.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_02: That's what it is.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_02: And in whatever capacity that is, Jason, you you literally talked about this exact same thing on that critique.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_02: I remember it clear as day for that one piece.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_02: It if it's jazz, it's to entertain, it's to make people feel good, you know?
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_02: If it's contemporary, there's a whole wide range of emotions that people can be feeling, but that is the ultimate goal, right?
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_02: You're you're you're you're performing on stage to make people feel something, and you're sitting in an audience wanting to feel something, right?
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think that the um the starting place is we have to change what this whole thing is about, you know?
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_02: And what I tell my students all the time is you know what, if we do all the things these things, if we make it about the artistry, if we make it about intention, if we make it about this piece, what does this piece need?
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_02: Not what does this piece need to win?
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_02: What does this piece need?
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_02: If we succeed in making this piece the best that it can be, then all the other things will happen.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_02: All the praise will happen, all the successes will happen, and that will be the cherry on top of all the hard work of coming towards this piece and making it what it needs, you know.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_02: I go back to to the peace of mind that that was stolen, and I got mostly positive comments, and most of them were like the original was so much better.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, Yeah, it was.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_02: And and I and that's not to take anything away from from the dancers that did it.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_02: And then I had some random comments that were like, the dance, the dance, the the copy was better.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, no, it wasn't, because you don't know anything about you're not the choreographer, you don't know what the intention of that piece was.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: You that the the choreographer in quotes didn't know how to direct what that piece was about.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_02: They didn't, they weren't in the room when I when I talked about this is what this is.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_02: They weren't in the room to hear my whole thought process.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_02: They weren't in the room to in for the 30 hours that that dance was choreographed.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_02: They weren't in the room over the course of the the 12 months that I edited and I changed and I fixed and I and I readjusted.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, well, this isn't working for the story, so we're gonna change this now, you know.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I got we got it on stage and it's not looking right.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_02: There was no process involved for that.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_02: And so when it comes to choreography and helping educators and dance studio owners, it it has to come back to choreography is a process.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, it results in a product, but it's not about the product, it's about the process.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_02: And if you go through a process with your dancers, you're going to end up with a really successful product, right?
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that mentality has to shift a lot.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_02: And to be honest, I'm I'm a little hopeless that it will.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure it will.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_02: But but for my end, and Jason, I'm sure you you feel the same way.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_02: If I can change one person's perspective, then I feel good about that.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_02: I feel good that one person has heard, heard me, has heard Jason, has heard other people, and is maybe going to change, change how they go about it, you know?
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_03: I think one of the things that I I listen to the like teacher talks sometimes, and I like talk to other studio owners, and you know, choreography is a hard thing, it's not a thing that you can just do if you don't do it.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_03: Like you can't, like a lot of the times, like people get into you know the rooms in these studios for sure, and they just like make up a dance.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, yeah, and I've I've that's what I'm seeing.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_03: I'm seeing something made up, like some steps strung together.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_03: And then I see people like studios like yours coming and having original work that's like a really thought-through process.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_03: It's not a copy and paste of I'm not seeing like trendy moves, like I'm not seeing the things done in your number that I'm seeing done in these numbers.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_03: Like you see, a lot of those, like you're like, oh, well, when people do this, they win.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_03: I'm going, yeah, because most people are doing it correctly.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_03: Like they're doing, like, you know, it's authentic to them.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_03: It's authentic.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_03: And then so we get a lot of copy and paste.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_03: And it's just all I mean, it's the thing is so outsourced.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_03: I had I remember growing up at the studio that I grew up at, and there became there came a time where we as dancers, you know, when we were young, we we, you know, we had our studio choreographer, and then it got to a point where we're like, she even acknowledged, we're like, okay, you need more, we need more.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_03: We gotta outsource.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_03: We are gonna start to bring, and that just you know, as a creative, you have to let the ego go and go, okay, what is this about?
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_03: Is this about the dancers, or is this about me having to put my name on everything?
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_03: You know, and that's what the studio, I think a lot of studio directors and owners have to take into account is like check your ego a little bit and go, what's best for these kids?
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_03: How are they gonna grow?
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_03: How are they gonna actually get to a space where they're real dancers, where they're training?
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_03: And like a lot of the studios that I get brought into, they they come to me, they're like, We need you because we need soul inserted into our dancers, like, we need someone that's gonna teach our dancers how to feel and listen and hear music and your musicality.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_03: There's not many people like me on the convention circuit.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_03: Uh there are dancers that I'm inspired by and people that I know that can move and do what I do, but like as far as like in the outreach of like studio world, there I mean, I'm not aware of it.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_03: I don't even think there's many people like I don't know, it's very authentic to me because I'm a conglomerate of all the people that have inspired me.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_03: And I I give, I give, I acknowledge them in my class.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, the Jason Williams, I'm losing light.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_03: The Jason Williams experience is about my experience.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_03: It's about the Japanese Wilson that I took from when I moved to LA and first took from a black male, a black queer male.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, I can move like that?
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_03: That's allowed.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_03: Like watching and taking his class religiously, I was I grew up training under Marguerite Derek's, who was I did every, I mean, I've probably done 20 movies with this lady.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_03: Like I watched her, and like she trained me as a dancer and as a professional dancer on set about how to be as a dancer, how to be on set as a dancer, how to rehearse.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_03: Like, so now as a choreographer and as a teacher and as a you know director, when I go into movies and TV and film, I'm pulling all of these nuggets from the experience that I've had in my career.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_03: That's what the Jason Williams experience is about.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_03: And I fully give credit to all the people that have paid put into my put who've poured into me.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_03: And so I just think that you have to know your source and have to outsource to get the to get what you want, you know.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_03: Like I've literally gone to studios that are like strictly ballet studios, and this teachers have been like, our dancers don't know how to move, and I need you to come to teach them how to move because we love the way we move.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, well then let's do it.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_03: Let's let's go.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_03: It's very easy, you know, it's very easy.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_03: And I understand that like that cost is definitely cost to bring me in, right?
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_03: It's not a cheap venture, but have a conversation.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_03: You can have a conversation with me, and we can figure something out.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_03: We can we can always something can be figured out, yeah.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: And the option is not steal your choreography if you can't afford me.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_03: That is what it's not, not part of the conversation.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: Just because it's on the internet does not mean that you can steal it.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's what, yeah, that is definitely not the right route to go.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_02: I love Jason.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_02: Everything you just said, it's it's my life mantra.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_02: Giving credit to the people that came before me and recognizing that who I am is it's it's very little me, and it's very much everybody that taught me.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_02: And what you're saying is recognizing your own source is so important.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_02: And it's why this feels so wrong, I think, to both of us is because the people that stole from us, we are not their source.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_02: I have no connection with this person.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_02: She's never taken from me.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: To be quite frank, I don't even think she knew I was the choreographer.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_02: She like, she didn't follow me on Instagram.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: She didn't like, I don't think she even knew that I was me.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_02: Because, you know, two months ago when this came out, she didn't block me then.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: She only blocked me once I made my big post.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_02: I don't even think she knew who I was.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_02: I think she saw it online and went, I want that.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna take it as mine.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_02: But it's like, so what it what is I want to know what her, you know, I would love, I would love to be able to talk to her and say, what is your source?
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_02: Who are your inspiration?
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_02: I would love to go and and help her become a choreographer.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_02: I would do that.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_02: If if what a big person you are.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_02: I know.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, you're you're great.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_04: You're great, you're sweet.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_02: But it's like, I don't think enough people know how to be a choreographer.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: No, I think they know how to, I think they know how to choreograph a dance.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think they know how to be a choreographer.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_04: The process in which it is the process which it takes.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it's it's a very, it's a very for me, it's very, it's a very sacred space for me.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_03: It's very sacred.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_03: I don't even follow a lot of dance things.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_03: I don't watch dance movies.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_03: People are like, what's your inspiration?
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I don't follow or look at a lot of stuff because I'm like, I don't want that to influence me.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_03: And like, I don't want to feel like I took something from someone.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_03: Like everything that I do comes from just like the happenstance of like knowing.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I remember like one of the moves I did, like, and the thing is, I'm not saying that like all of my move, like I had a dad from the studio that I'm talking about, being like, You just think you created and danced, like you didn't create moves, that and I'm not about the moves.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_03: It's not about the moves, it's about the way that I'm feeling and how I strung things together.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not saying I created movement, but I created this series of movements to this song to this musicality.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_03: That is all my construction, which is called choreography.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: Right, correct.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_03: And that is what I thought.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: Think people understand.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_03: I think they understand they think they think it's just a move to a song, and it's like there's a lot more to it.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_03: I'm listening to the tambourine and then the drama and the vocal.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_03: And then I'm like, how does this move?
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and then people watch it and they don't understand why they love it.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: But then if you explain, well, you saw that one move on the tambourine, that's why you love it.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: You just couldn't tell me why that's why you loved it.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: And if I put another song on, guess what?
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's not the same.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: This is the I mean, you can people do that all the time.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: They just steal the the aura fe and pop it on another song, and you're like, okay, you're still stealing my stuff, but also like it just looks even worse because it has no connection whatsoever to the song.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's meant for this song, it's choreographed for this music.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_02: And you and Jason, you speed it up and it's not the same.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_02: And it lasts everything.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_02: It lasts everything.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: The nuance.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: Simple is complex.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_02: And there's a lot of detail and thought put into simplicity.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_02: And so I can imagine why someone who is untrained or uneducated would look at Jason's choreography and go, oh, that's just a bunch of moves that I know.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm just going to put it together.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_02: But that's that's someone who's not educated enough to watch that and go, wow, there's a lot of finesse here.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of depth.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of music, there's a lot of intricacy here that can get lost like that.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think that's another another component too.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's not just skills or moves, you know.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I I hate that that word's, I'm not a fan of the word skills.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know where people started using that.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, what is what is what does that even mean?
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_02: Like, yeah, I don't skills is such a weird, interesting word.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_02: And every um, you know, a step touch or a ball change, you there's a thousand different ways you can do a ball change.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_02: There's a thousand, you know, it's like one of the first steps we all learn in dance, but a ball change can be so very different.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: That's all it needs sometimes, a ball change.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love a ball change.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_03: I I love ball changes to the right music, that ball change and change the world.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_02: And there's a thousand different ways to do it and approach it and and textures and quality and stuff like that.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: And you just can't, you can't, you can't take it.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_02: You just can't.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_02: You can't even take a ball change.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, sorry about it.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: Make up your own ball change.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_02: Make up your own version of a ball change, you know.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, very, that's very that's very good.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's uh I think that the what it comes down to is just like artists versus you know, people making a profit.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_03: And it's just like, I mean, that's an age old, that's an age old fight.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_03: And it's definitely in my case, in my scenario, you know, someone was like, don't make this about race.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, Well, I it was made about race a long time ago.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_03: Like I didn't pull the race card, the race card was dealt to me.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_03: Like, so so when I talk about it being a race thing, it felt that way.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_03: It triggered that to me.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, here we go.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_03: Appropriating, capitalizing, stealing from me again, like me, people, my, my, the musicality, the in like I mean, it's just it's just what we have Elvis.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_03: Elvis is Elvis because he stole.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_03: Like, and that's just that's a fact.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_03: That is literal fact, you know, and like so that's why it got personal to me.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_03: It it got more and more personal the more research I did, and I was seeing who was stealing.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, oh, come on, man, like it is 2023.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_03: Like, don't we aren't we better than this by now?
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_03: And it just it it that's what really struck a chord for me, like that made it deeper, it made it a little bit deeper, and specific specifically with that movement, because that movement was so in celebration of my blackness, my queerness, and my like my life.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: And it was stated, it was literally stated in the caption, like what that was.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, 100%.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't it wasn't hidden, it wasn't hard to read or see or understand, it was just spelled out for you.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and still stolen.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_03: So that's how much of that's not cared about, right?
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_03: You know, that's how much of that doesn't matter.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_03: And I know that I'm I wanna say, I wanna believe that I I don't I I I'm a little bit naive when it comes to like people being like uh bad people.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_03: Like I just don't believe in like bad people.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just like I can't it it's hard for me to wrap my head around people being malicious or like have evil intent.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_03: So like I lean more towards the idea that like it wasn't done in a malicious way.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_03: I just think it was done in an ignorant way.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_03: And here we are.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: And with the intent to continue to stay ignorant because yes.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: If you want to learn, you'd be willing to say, hi, I made a mistake, help me understand, I want to be better.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: And they neither of these people have done any such thing.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think for me it's actually the lack of response uh that makes me more frustrated and more disappointed in this situation than than the actual feeling.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_02: And from from my in my specific case, I'm I'm more frustrated with the dance team.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_02: I'm more frustrated with the university because I'm like, you it was so easy for you to just say, I'm sorry.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_02: And this was not queer.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's just so I I'm still and Jason, I'm sure you're I'm mind blown.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like still mind blown that no one can just say, I'm so sorry.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's such it's not a lot to ask.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it really shows where we're at, and it and it's not a good place.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's not a good place where we can't apologize for doing something wrong, and we can't apologize for hurting someone else, someone else.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we can't do that at the risk of our own ego, right?
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's that's that's really, really unfortunate, I think.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: And like how what it shows to everyone else involved that know now knows about it too, because it I'm I'm sick of I'm sick of so many things in our dance world in particular, getting just swept under the rug and forgotten about and handled, you know, very discreetly and privately.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: And oh well we'll don't worry, we'll handle the situation.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: And you never really know if it got handled.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: And you, you know, like in any other situation of plagiarism, it would have been handled.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: And it would, you know, if they if they stole an entire essay that they submitted or whatever it was, they would have gotten their scholarship taken away from them.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's so many more things, and to me, that's what's really sad about this whole situation is that I don't think that people take stealing choreography seriously.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think that when it comes to dance and choreography, people have the same respect as they do if it's writing or music or other form art forms.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: What you know, as dancers, we're already at the bottom.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: We are already like, you know, we're under the leads, we're under the singers, we're under the writers, we're under the producers.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like, we are at the very, very, very bottom of the barrel as dancers in the industry as it is.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: And then to not even have that type of respect when we do, as dancers, bump to a choreographer, we're a step up now.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: And we still don't get the same respect as the others above us that are creating work in the same way that we are.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: But it just, you know, I think that I'm not surprised on the studio owner end for them to act that way because I'm just not surprised.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like that's just competitive dance and like just it's it's sad and disgusting.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: But it's even more disgusting when organizations and universities who are where, you know, parents are looking at these places to give them their money for continuing education into their adulthood is also just sh sh brushing it under the rug like it never even happened, and there's no lesson to be learned.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: And we're not going to enforce anything, and we're not going to s you know set these new standards for our university moving forward.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: Nothing.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: Nothing at all.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's just we need we need to do better.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: We need to do better as an entire industry across the board in so many different ways.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_03: I even contacted the competition in which they were at and are going to national score.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I like know them well.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_03: I actually used to teach for them.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, this is what should happen.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_03: Like the the the victory cup that was won, that should not be that should be whatever.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_03: Like there should be something done.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um, they were like, well, let me know how it pans out.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_03: And I just I let them know how it pans out.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: And it didn't pan out.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_03: I literally received after they were like, Oh, that sucks.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_03: Let us know how it pans out.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_03: I let them know how it panned has panned out and no response.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_03: Like, no response.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_03: And then I got a message from a parent whose kid, I guess, goes to school with the kids and they had like an emergency rehearsal to change the dance before nationals.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_05: Wow.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_03: It's like and it's just like at the end of the day, like it's not in my that in my world is very like that.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, right.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: The drop in the bucket.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_03: It really does not, like, it doesn't affect my day-to-day by any means, but it just I'm just still gonna call it, I'm still gonna call it out.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_03: Like I'm still gonna do it.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_03: Like it's still wrong, you know.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's very wrong.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: Even like, you know, these organizations aren't doing anything, and you're they're they know what's wrong.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's what's really sad.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: And then I, you know, like like you were saying, Jared, like you want to talk to the the people that stole your work and like to hear like their side of things.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I wanna know from all these organizations that are choosing to not take action on this, why?
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because I don't I don't know.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: Reputation don't reputation money, like it's just like everything has happened for the past forever, you know.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: They they do not want anything to do with it.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: They want to not have any accountability or any liability.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: And if they can just keep it quiet, they will.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's why, you know, even though at the time of this release, it's been, you know, a month probably since all of all of your scenarios have kind of come to light.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: But this is just another way to keep the conversation going and have it not be swept under the rug.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: Because this is going to continue to happen.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like you said, Jared, I don't know that I'm terribly hopeful that things are gonna be better.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's gonna take more and more generous souls like both of you to be to be that honest person with your circle of people, you know, and it and those circles are gonna widen and widen as your students maintain that integrity as they grow up and start teaching people.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, so maybe maybe in a while, like, and hopefully these circles are what grows more rather than the dishonest circles because there's they're all over the place, you know.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: We just have to grow bigger and faster.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_02: I think I I have a thought that you just spun off of me.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_02: And it's that common phrase, like someone else's success doesn't like dilute your own.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_02: Or whatever that.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if you're gonna be able to do that.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's very similar to that.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_02: Something like that, right?
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I just I the word that came to me was appreciation.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_02: Appreciation for other people and their work.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like our industry is very, oh, it's gotta be about like I'm not worrying about anybody else.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just worrying about myself and like I'm building my my own brand, my building my own name.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_02: And and we don't take enough time to appreciate other people's work or or verbalize how much we appreciate other people's work.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think, you know, one I'm throwing a little stat out here, which is like mind-blowing for me, but you know, I posted the side by side on my Instagram, and that was well beyond the most amount of likes and views I've ever gotten on my Instagram before.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um and then I posted again the full piece, um, reclaiming it as my own.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_02: And that video only got about half as many likes and views as the side-by-side.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_02: And for me, I'm like, so so the drama of of someone stealing choreography is more interesting us to us than the art, right?
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_02: Than the than the performance.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_02: And so I just wish that there was a way to bring it back to what is this all about?
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's all about dance, you know, it's just about entertainment and and feeling something and all that stuff.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I just, you know, I it saddens me a little bit that that my my greatest achievement on Instagram is that side-by-side video.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_02: That's kind of sad.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's sad to think about, you know.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_02: I wish, I wish we lived in a world where the work could speak for itself.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I wish we could we could instill that in students and people that that it's about the work, it's about what we're seeing, it's about what we're feeling.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I think I don't know if again, I don't know if it's gonna happen, but you know, for me, I think this has a big a big shift in me.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_02: I think, you know, I'm I'm not super active on social media, but I'm gonna make a point now to to appreciate other choreographers and and not be so afraid to go up to someone and say, well, I really enjoyed that piece.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because we don't do that enough.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_02: I'm also gonna be less afraid.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm a pretty like I want my work to speak to for myself for myself, and I don't want to have to speak for it.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_02: But I think now with the situation, I'm like, no, I want people to know that was me.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_02: I want people to know that this was mine, that I was a that this this came from me, and I'm gonna be less ashamed of doing that.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_02: And so I feel like I'm on two opposite ends of the spectrum here where I want, I want choreographers that feel like they have a unique voice or an original voice or that are authentic to themselves, to be more unashamed to say, this is me, this is my choreography, put your name on it, throw it out there.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_02: But then I also want people to not be afraid to go up to someone, you know.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know how many times at a dance convention, people like it's very rare for someone to come up and say, Oh, I really like that piece, who choreographed that?
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_02: But that doesn't, that rarely ever happens.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm gonna make an attempt to to do that and and hope that other teachers say, Oh, well, it's okay to go ask someone or like comment on another studio's piece that it was really wonderful.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think that happens enough in our industry.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I I I, you know, I always like to look back at what can we do, what what can we do in a positive way to help shift to prevent instead of just, you know, it's of course it's important to look at all the negative things.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm also thinking to myself, what can I do in a positive way to help steer people in the right direction without actually talking about the issue?
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I think there's a way to steer people um to to do that.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_02: Jason has a finger up.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_03: No, I just because I want to say it before I lose it.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_03: You said, you said, you know, you wanted to you want to, you know, put your stamp on your work and you want people to know and like you want to put your face to the product.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_03: That is something that I have for some reason the business side of dance and art and the artistic side, I think it's because my parents, I I come from a corporate and a creative.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_03: And so like that is within me to understand that.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_03: So even with myself and like branding the Jason Williams experience and making that a thing and like letting that be the thing, it's easy, it's easier for me to talk about myself or present my work when it's under a brand, when it's under a business.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_03: It's a business.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_03: And one of the things we were talking about earlier, you said dancers and choreographers are at the bottom, well, choreographers specifically are at the bottom of the totem pole because what you said, they're afraid of taking ownership.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_03: Ownership is something that's so important, and that's something that I'm very big on.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_03: Ownership, this is, and that's why I'm here today, and that's why I spoke up because I'm like, no, I am not gonna sit at the bottom of the totem pole and not make money and not have a career and not have a life and not do the things that I want to do because I'm afraid to take ownership of my work.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_03: I'm taking ownership, and by taking ownership, I am pushing the narrative and the realization and the actuality that like this is mine.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I had a friend of mine say to me once who's not a dancer but really admires dance, and she was like, She was like, I love that I can like scroll past something on Instagram and not even know that it's yours and watch it and know that it's yours.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, Yes, that is the whole goal.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_03: That is the goal for me as a choreographer is to really sit in that space of creative creativity and then like ownership and having that be like your brand, you know.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_03: Like I know we talk about brands and all that stuff with social media and stuff.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_03: But I think as choreographers, because I even went through this, I was like, well, I can choreograph everything because I am a chore, and I can.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_03: I can go and give you a hip hop number, I can give you a tap number, I can do all those things.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_03: I was trained in all of those things.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_03: Those things are real to me.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_03: Those things are really, I'm not appropriating moves.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_03: I can come up, I can do it.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_03: But to stay in a lane, I just had a quote from uh Tina Turner and she was like, I she was like, she said, My oh I don't want to misquote her, but I'm going to sorry, sorry, Tina.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_03: I literally love her so much.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_03: She said one of her legacy was because she stayed in she's she stayed in her lane.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_03: She stayed at what she was doing.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_03: And that is why she is who she was.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_03: And she said that she can she can live happily because she stayed in she stayed the course.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_03: So and I think that's just like a lot of uh, you know, choreographers need to hear that to stay the course.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_03: Like whatever it is, like cultivate your voice and your artistry and like stay in that lane and push it and go for it and don't be scared of it and stay there, which is why it is hurtful and saddens when someone takes things from a lane that you've cultivated.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_03: You're like, yeah, yeah.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_03: You know, that's to bring it back to why we're here.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_03: That's what that's what hurts the soul a little bit.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_03: You're like, no, no, no.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_03: That's not something I just that's it's taken me years.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_03: I've been choreographing since I was 13.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_03: I was choreographing for UNC Wilmington's University of North Carolina at Wilmington.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_03: I was choreographing for their dance team when I was 16.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_03: I was in high school and I was going to their rehearsals as a high school kid, teaching these grown women at the time they were like 22.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, you're grown.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_03: I was teaching them dance.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_03: I was choreographing my solos at competition.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_03: I was choreographing group members at competition.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_03: So I've been creating my choreographic voice for so long.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_03: This has been a process.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_03: This has been 20 years, 20 plus years of like diving in and seeing what works for me and like finding a niche and staying in that and being like, ah, this if I were to go today, this is what I'm leaving behind that is that is Jason Williams, you know.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_03: And I just don't think people recognize it as that, and it's not that deep to people, clearly, because they'll just steal it.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_03: But that's what you're dealing with.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_03: People when you steal choreography, that's what you're dealing with.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_03: You're dealing with someone's like lineage, someone's legacy, someone's identity.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_03: And it's just deep, it's just deeper than steps, is deeper than steps, it's deeper than steps.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_02: Way deeper than steps.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think Jason, you I've struggled with the ownership part of my career for sure.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_02: And anybody that knows me knows that I've struggled with that.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's an artist, an artist dilemma.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_02: It is, but I think that's why when I saw you do that, I was like, well, I'm gonna do that too.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_02: I'm now gonna take ownership, you know.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I've now now that I'm in this situation and that this has happened to me, I understand that taking ownership isn't actually just about me.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's about taking ownership for all the people before me.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_02: It's about taking ownership for the people after me, and it's also giving someone else permission to take ownership, you know, like like you've done for me, you know.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I hope that me taking ownership gives that ability to someone else too, because it it's not out of ego.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's it's literally, this is mine.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_02: It is mine, and I deserve all of that recognition, and I deserve to be seen as this is this is who I am.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_03: It's the brilliant chart that you are.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_03: Post your work, post it, please post the dance that I love.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_03: Please, I would love you understand.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_03: I could literally, the first like 38 counts I could do for you right now.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_03: It's so good.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_03: It literally shook me.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_03: There's very few numbers that throughout a competition season that like stay with you, like because you literally sit there forever and you're watching, and like a lot of the times you're just seeing some copy paste, and you're like, and I say this, I'm like, you could play a whole different song and put this dance to it, and it would be that.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I'm that's what I'm saying.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_03: I'm seeing that, but this was not that.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_03: This was like, I could tell, I was like, oh, this was set with this, was maneuvered, this was adjusted, this was like curated.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_03: It was so good.
• 42:35
  unknown: Oh good.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you, Jason.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_02: So please I'm sure you can all even see, maybe hopefully you can like how uncomfortable that like even like hearing all that stuff makes me.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_02: But thank you, thank you for that.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_02: And it means a lot to hear that because it is personal, all of it is personal.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_02: And if and I know we're we're being repetitive, but um uh hopefully it drives it home.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_02: But it's if it's not personal, it's not art.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_02: If it's not personal, it's not dance, it's moose and it's steps, and and maybe it's people's inability to dive deep into themselves and and see what they're about, you know.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_02: And this this incident for me too was very hurtful, very hurtful.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there's no way to describe it.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I did have some people say, Oh, you know, imitation is the greatest form of flattery, and all, you know, we had we had those comments, and you know, I told them no.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_02: I said, nope, doesn't feel like that.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_02: Does not feel it literally feels like someone grabbed a part of me and ripped it out.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_02: That's what it feels like.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I think though though these messages are important for people to hear.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I I hope, I hope that anybody that's involved in both of our cases does listen to this.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_02: Because I I think if they hear, hear how we're how we're talking about this and hear how how it's made us feel and hear the larger conversation, I think they might understand a little bit more because it it is it is personal.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_02: Everything is personal.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_03: There was a there was the in the I had that as well.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_03: Like the imitation is the highest form of flattery.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, okay, yeah, great, good.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_03: I hear that.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_03: But like there was money that was made that is not in my pocket.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_03: And so that's what I had to like circle back to.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_03: But then someone sent me a message, uh quote from Oscar Wilde, and it said, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery that mediocracy can pay to greatness.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_03: And that I was able to hang my hat on.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, okay.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_03: Like I can, I can that that I can like fully swallow and be like, well, okay.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_03: You know?
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_03: So I hopefully that can do the same thing for you.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_03: But like that, that's where I was able to kind of like take a I was able to breathe on that.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_03: Like mediocrity paying to greatness.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, I mean yeah, because then that takes ownership of myself.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_03: I have to consider myself great in that moment.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_03: And that's when I'm like, well that's great.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_03: It's been great.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_03: I'm great.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_03: Then there's that.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_00: Y'all, this was this was awesome.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I really am so, so, so glad that we were able to make this happen.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I really hope that this felt good for you to share.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that a lot of this is obviously going to be listened to, and I do hope that it gets into the right ears of who needs to listen to it, which we have dance parents, dance teachers, studio owners, dance professionals, dancers themselves worldwide who listen to our podcast.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I know that this is going to be just, you know, an episode that people will appreciate.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm grateful that you were willing to share and speak out your stories and also continuing to advocate for our industry for what's right, because that's really important.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I would love if you both wouldn't mind just sharing one final thought to lead us out on this episode.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_00: And you can speak to whoever you'd like to speak to, whether it's the other choreographers, whether it's the up-and-coming generation of dancers, studios, competitive dance, beyond competitive dance, whoever you'd like to speak to to lead us out with one final thought on this topic.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think my final thought has nothing to do with stealing choreography.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_02: I think my I'm thinking about what my final thought is from this conversation.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_02: What am I taking away myself from this conversation?
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_02: When I'm what am I gonna tell myself and what am I gonna remember as if I was a listener?
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's the word that Jason used, which is source.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm gonna really be mindful and thankful and appreciative to my sources, who are my sources, and continue to push talking about that and acknowledging those things.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's it.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_02: I I I think for me, I'm I'm I'm being introspective into my own thoughts and the way that I live my life.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I want to be more grateful and more appreciative to my sources.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_03: So I just wanted to, my my final thought would be because during this process, I I mean, I'm in therapy every Wednesday at 12 o'clock.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_03: So I had to, there was a lot of like thoughts that were happening and a lot of triggers that were being like, I was like, ooh, I'm okay, what's what's this?
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_03: What's this?
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_03: And one of the things that I really paid attention to at the beginning of this was first of all, I forgot that I was an adult, that I'm grown.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_03: I am a 37-year-old man.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_03: I can say what I want, I can do what I want, as long as I'm not hurting anyone, and I'm always doing what I want, I'm always doing what I feel in my heart is best for humanity, not even just for myself, but what's right for the world.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_03: And I felt like I had to speak to my inner child about this idea of getting into trouble for speaking up.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_03: I had this little like hesitation in myself that I was like, oh, I don't know if I should say something.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_03: I might get in trouble.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, who are you gonna get in trouble by, Jason?
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_03: Who are you gonna get in trouble by?
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_03: And are any of those people that are you're gonna get in trouble by paying your rent?
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_03: So I had to like say, I had to really talk to myself.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_03: And I really remembered, I remembered a quote by John Lewis when he said, get in good trouble, necessary trouble, and help redeem the soul of America.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_03: And it's just like getting into good trouble, getting into good trouble.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_03: Don't be afraid to the kids out there, to the humans, to the people, adults.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_03: I know that people have this, especially like as an artist.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_03: And I know I think all of us probably have some little like some like smidgen of uh of this, you know, residual situation from like being a kid.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_03: Like I'm like I said, I got in trouble in third grade and got kicked out of the council.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_03: And like, so you hold on to these things of like, ugh, I don't want to ruffle feathers, I don't want to get in trouble.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_03: But it's always a good time to do what's right, and it's always a good time to get in good trouble when you know that something when it's bigger than you and when it's benefiting the world as a whole, the dance world, the world, the general world, like so don't be afraid to use your voice, even if you feel like you're gonna get in trouble.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_03: There is no trouble.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_03: Like, there is no, like, you know what I'm saying?
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I want to kind of get us out of the space of feeling like we can't use our voice because of some kind of backlash.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_03: But if you're doing something, if you're speaking up for what's right, then you're right.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_03: And nothing can be done about that.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_03: You it there, if you're in the right and you're speaking up for what's right, then there's nothing, there's no, you're not gonna get in trouble.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_03: There's no backlash, there's no ridicule that can come your way because that's not what happens.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_03: That's not how this works.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_03: That's not how energy works, that's not how God works, that's not how the universe works.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_03: So that's what I would like to be.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_00: We hope you enjoyed our summer bonus episode featuring Jason Williams and Jared Baker about their experiences with stolen choreography.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_00: We are so grateful for their support in wanting to share their story with the world, to continue to educate and inspire others to do what's right in our dance world.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_00: Be sure to follow our guests on social media.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_00: You can find Jason on Instagram at the Jason Williams Experience and Jared at JBake13.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_00: Also, don't forget to subscribe to Making the Impact a Dance Competition Podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify to receive our weekly episode straight to your phone.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_00: Season 5 of Making the Impact is launching on Thursday, September 7th, with all new episodes on hot topics in the competitive dance world.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_00: Wishing our fans worldwide a wonderful summer, and we will see you in season five.