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Alex Snider – Sometimes You Should Be Late · Vox Novus with Victor Fuhrman

0:05
Speaker 1: Vox Novus, the new voice. Vox Novus, the new dimension.
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Speaker 1: Vox Novus, thought and movement leaders who will share from
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Speaker 1: their experience and offer tools to help us navigate our
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Speaker 1: rapidly changing world. My name is Victor Furman. Welcome to
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Speaker 1: Vox Novus, the new voice. We live in a culture
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Speaker 1: that worships urgency. Many people move through their days in
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Speaker 1: a near constant state of rushing, multitasking, reacting and catching up.
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Speaker 1: Many of us may be quietly wondering, what are we
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Speaker 1: losing in this process? My guest this week on Vox Novus,
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Speaker 1: Alex Snyder, explores the hidden emotional, relational, and moral costs
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Speaker 1: of chronic urgency and asks a deeper question. How does
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Speaker 1: the way we move through time shape the people we become?
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Speaker 1: Alex Snyder is a writer, facilitator, and former government strategist
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Speaker 1: who bridges the worlds of mission-driven leadership and mindfulness. After
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Speaker 1: spending more than 15 years inside high-pressure federal environments, along
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Speaker 1: with a life-altering bike accident that reshaped his perspective on
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Speaker 1: urgency and attention, he began questioning whether modern life's obsession
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Speaker 1: with speed and efficiency was actually helping people live, lead,
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Speaker 1: and relate more meaningfully. A meditation teacher and co-founder of MindfulFed,
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Speaker 1: Alex explores what modern busyness gives us and what it
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Speaker 1: quietly takes away. His website is slowmindfulness.com, and he joins
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Speaker 1: me this week to share his path and new book,
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Speaker 1: Sometimes You Should Be Late. Please join me in welcoming
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Speaker 1: to Vox Novus, Alex Snyder. Welcome, Alex.
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Speaker 2: Victor, it's so great to be here. Thanks for having me.
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Speaker 1: Alex, you know, your book is entitled Sometimes You Should
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Speaker 1: Be Late. It's a provocative title for a book. What
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Speaker 1: made you choose the word should? And what conversations or
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Speaker 1: assumptions are you hoping to disrupt with it?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks, Victor. It's a great first question because it
2:39
Speaker 2: is designed to be provocative, the title. Sometimes you should
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Speaker 2: be late. And in particularly, we live in a world
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Speaker 2: where the word should has a bit of a negative connotation,
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Speaker 2: like don't should yourself or we shouldn't be shoulding on
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Speaker 2: each other. And I use that word in particular because
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Speaker 2: I want this to be a bit provocative. Because I
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Speaker 2: do think the stakes of us choosing to be on time,
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Speaker 2: being open to being late, being open to being inefficient,
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Speaker 2: thinking differently about waiting, I think there are moral stakes
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Speaker 2: to this. It's about how we can become the kind
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Speaker 2: of person we want to be. Generous, open, present, a
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Speaker 2: good listener. And so I use should very intentionally because
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Speaker 2: there is a bit of a moral stake here. And
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Speaker 2: the one thing I talked about in the book pretty
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Speaker 2: early on is I have no idea when you, in particular, Victor,
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Speaker 2: or whoever is listening, should be late or should have
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Speaker 2: a less productive day or maybe focus a bit less
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Speaker 2: on being efficient. I don't know. But I think we
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Speaker 2: all need to find out and to realize when a
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Speaker 2: moment is calling us for slowness or for speed.
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Speaker 1: Absolutely. You mentioned listening. And for me personally, that's one
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Speaker 1: of the great points that I try to share with
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Speaker 1: people is that what I call sacred listening, that's listening
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Speaker 1: without interruption or opining is so critical in this world
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Speaker 1: that we lived in. Some people just want to be
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Speaker 1: heard without us saying anything.
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Speaker 2: Do you agree? Yeah. I noticed that that phrase sacred
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Speaker 2: listening is a very resonant one. And I can certainly
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Speaker 2: think about the times when I've been speaking to someone
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Speaker 2: at a happy hour or even a family member and
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Speaker 2: And I really have not felt listened to. And it
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Speaker 2: is quite painful. And part of what I really offer
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Speaker 2: in this book, and part of the reason the title
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Speaker 2: is like sometimes you should be late, is I think
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Speaker 2: we focus a lot on punctuality, efficiency in the literal sense.
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Speaker 2: Like how quickly did you get back to someone? Did
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Speaker 2: you show up on time for the meeting? Were you
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Speaker 2: like physically there? And I think we need to open
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Speaker 2: to thinking a bit more about the quality of our attention,
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Speaker 2: the quality of our listening. I create a term in
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Speaker 2: the book called emotional punctuality. So it's not just showing
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Speaker 2: up physically for the meeting or calling a parent or
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Speaker 2: being there at a team meeting at work. But are
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Speaker 2: we paying attention? Are we thinking about how we can contribute?
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Speaker 2: Are we tracking when someone actually seems like they're not
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Speaker 2: doing well and asking them follow-up questions and being curious?
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Speaker 2: Those kind of things. So I really love that term, Victor,
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Speaker 2: of sacred listening. So thanks for inviting that.
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Speaker 1: And I love the term emotional punctuality, which I was
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Speaker 1: going to use in a question a little bit later on.
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Speaker 1: And you were very punctual with it, obviously. But let's
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Speaker 1: talk a little bit more about that emotional punctuality. As
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Speaker 1: an interfaith minister, I've served in a counseling aspect for many,
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Speaker 1: many people throughout the years. And again, that sacred listening,
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Speaker 1: sitting with someone, who may be grieving, who may be
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Speaker 1: going through tremendous life changes and listening to them and
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Speaker 1: really hearing what they have to say and saying to
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Speaker 1: them at the end, I heard you and I hear
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Speaker 1: you and I understand you. That could be healing on
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Speaker 1: so many levels, couldn't it?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's a really beautiful thing to bring up
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Speaker 2: and I'm feeling some gratefulness for the kind of role
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Speaker 2: that you've played in people's lives and I can tell
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Speaker 2: you're someone who does give people their full attention. It
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Speaker 2: can really be healing. And I think there's two things
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Speaker 2: that that brings up for me. The first is when
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Speaker 2: I think about who I wrote this book for, I
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Speaker 2: think about a lot of people in my life, I
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Speaker 2: think particularly women, who are deeply caring, who give their family,
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Speaker 2: their friends, their full attention, asking great questions, really listening,
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Speaker 2: remembering things that you said. And yes, that might make
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Speaker 2: them late for something. And so what happens is often
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Speaker 2: they're judging themselves for not being able to keep up.
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Speaker 2: And part of the reason they're not able to keep
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Speaker 2: up in the punctuality sense is because they are being
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Speaker 2: very present. They're very focused on people in the moment.
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Speaker 2: So maybe that leads for that meeting to spill over
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Speaker 2: longer or for that coffee to linger a bit longer.
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Speaker 2: And our society is saying, you did a bad thing
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Speaker 2: because you were late for the next thing or you
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Speaker 2: didn't accomplish all the chores. And what I want my
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Speaker 2: book to do is to rebalance it a little bit
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Speaker 2: to say, no, no. Like you are making the choice
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Speaker 2: to make someone feel heard and valued and not alone.
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Speaker 2: And in this day and age, that feels pretty important
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Speaker 2: to me. What do you think?
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Speaker 1: Absolutely. And another way that this applies is you are
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Speaker 1: going through a door, an exit door. And a lot
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Speaker 1: of people will just let that door close in your face.
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Speaker 1: But if you hold that door, look around and see
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Speaker 1: someone coming behind you and hold the door for them,
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Speaker 1: they're delighted and surprised.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so true, Victor. And our world is so
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Speaker 2: focused on efficiency. The subtitle of my book is The
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Speaker 2: World Obsessed with Speed. And there is nothing efficient about
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Speaker 2: holding a door for someone or asking the barista how
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Speaker 2: they're doing or stopping and asking a neighbor about their day.
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Speaker 2: There's nothing efficient in the way that we think about
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Speaker 2: it in our world. But when you think about living
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Speaker 2: a life aligned with our values— My sense is that
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Speaker 2: most of our listeners value generosity, value kindness, value being
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Speaker 2: emotionally available for those people around us that we can
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Speaker 2: give presence to. And so the question is, if we're
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Speaker 2: living a life where we only focus on optimizing our day,
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Speaker 2: cramming in the most number of meetings and chores, are
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Speaker 2: we really allowing ourselves to be available for these other
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Speaker 2: ways that we can show up for people around us?
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Speaker 1: And another thing, if you go to a store and
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Speaker 1: there's someone helping you at the store at the counter
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Speaker 1: or customer service, and you notice they have a name
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Speaker 1: tag on, acknowledge them by name and thank them by
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Speaker 1: name for the service that they rendered. Or perhaps they
8:49
Speaker 1: don't have a name tag on, ask them, hey, what's
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Speaker 1: your name?
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Speaker 3: John.
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Speaker 1: John, thank you so much for the excellent service you
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Speaker 1: just gave me.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that, Victor. And it is something that
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Speaker 2: I think I don't even do enough. Like I'm very
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Speaker 2: conscious of these ideas and I'm conscious of the risks
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Speaker 2: of just going through my day on autopilot, but it
9:09
Speaker 2: is something that's really powerful. And it's, and this is
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Speaker 2: kind of what I've, I've really learned through this book.
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Speaker 2: It's not just a gift to that person. Yes, sure.
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Speaker 2: It's nice for that person to be acknowledged, to use
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Speaker 2: our words, to share appreciation, but it also helps us
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Speaker 2: see our day differently. If we're being patient and waiting
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Speaker 2: for a new barista and training and thanking them for
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Speaker 2: the great latte they're made. It really changes our relationship
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Speaker 2: to that moment. We're not just getting coffee as like
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Speaker 2: a task to do. We're interacting. We're being social. We're
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Speaker 2: connecting with the world. And part of what, you know,
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Speaker 2: there's a chapter in my book, Victor, called How to
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Speaker 2: Wait Without Waiting, which is about when we're in those
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Speaker 2: moments of traffic's really bad and we're, you know, yelling
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Speaker 2: at our spouse about who should have left earlier or
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Speaker 2: you're in line for lunch and it's taken a long time.
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Speaker 2: We have a lot more choice than we think about
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Speaker 2: how we can inhabit those moments. We can be appreciative
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Speaker 2: for the barista, the staff of the restaurant who's doing
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Speaker 2: their best and on their feet all day, or we
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Speaker 2: can fume about it taking a couple extra minutes. Like
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Speaker 2: that's really a choice that we can make.
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Speaker 1: Which brings the question, how did modern life become so
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Speaker 1: urgency-driven that many people no longer feel fully present inside
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Speaker 1: their own lives? And what might change if we stop
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Speaker 1: treating speed as a sign of success?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a deep question. I can certainly give the
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Speaker 2: societal answer of technology and phones. But I kind of
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Speaker 2: want to go personal here, Victor. How did my life
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Speaker 2: get so fast? Well, because there are things I want
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Speaker 2: to do with my life. I want to be a
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Speaker 2: successful author. When I worked for government for 15 years,
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Speaker 2: I wanted the policies to go forward. I wanted to
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Speaker 2: maybe get the promotion. There are things that I wanted
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Speaker 2: to do with my life. And so with my book,
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Speaker 2: I'm not trying to tackle, you know, the hustle culture
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Speaker 2: of saying that you're a boogeyman, you're a bad thing.
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Speaker 2: Like there are things that are worth speeding up for,
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Speaker 2: caring for our family, accomplishing our to-do list. Learning a
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Speaker 2: craft and a hobby, those are beautiful things to apply
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Speaker 2: effort and speed to. The problem is when it becomes unconscious.
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Speaker 2: We don't think about the cost of that. And so, again,
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Speaker 2: for my personal life, when I'm rushing from four different
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Speaker 2: activities on a Friday night, how is my attention? Am
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Speaker 2: I actually present for those things? But also as a society,
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Speaker 2: as we're using AI more and more, technology's everywhere, what
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Speaker 2: is the cost of that speed? And are we paying
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Speaker 2: attention to that as much as the benefits it's giving us?
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Speaker 1: That term you shared, unconscious urgency. You argue that it's
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Speaker 1: not speed itself, but unconscious urgency. What's the real difference
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Speaker 1: between them? And how can people tell when urgency is
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Speaker 1: no longer serving them?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, so I want to slow down with this because
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Speaker 2: it's a very subtle thing. So my book has an
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Speaker 2: inviting sloth on the cover. I talk about slowing down,
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Speaker 2: but I actually don't think slowing down is the point.
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Speaker 2: I don't think a well-lived life is just a slow life.
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Speaker 2: I think what slowing down does is it gives us
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Speaker 2: access to choice. One example, I like hiking a lot
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Speaker 2: and going for runs a lot. It's possible to go
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Speaker 2: for these trail runs to run up the mountain very quickly.
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Speaker 2: And we get to the top, we accomplish something, then
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Speaker 2: we get back down. And it's a very different experience
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Speaker 2: than having a slow meandering walk in a mountain where
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Speaker 2: you can see the leaves, maybe have a conversation with
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Speaker 2: someone else. And there's nothing wrong with either. They are
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Speaker 2: both useful things. The challenge is if we're turning one
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Speaker 2: into the other, if we're thinking that we have done
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Speaker 2: the hike effectively just by finishing as quickly as possible.
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Speaker 2: And so that's what I mean by unconscious. And so
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Speaker 2: for me to get that to the more conscious part,
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Speaker 2: It's about slowing down. It's about taking a moment and realizing,
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Speaker 2: why am I going for a hike today? Is my
13:10
Speaker 2: goal to post a picture of this to say I
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Speaker 2: accomplished this hike? Or is it to actually smell the air?
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Speaker 2: To have a moment with a family member, maybe a partner,
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Speaker 2: and actually have a deep, meaningful conversation that's harder to
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Speaker 2: have when there's technology. And so for me, slowing down
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Speaker 2: is a tool that helps us choose how we want
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Speaker 2: to inhabit our moments.
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Speaker 3: Absolutely. Absolutely.
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Speaker 1: You spent years inside high-pressure government environments before becoming a
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Speaker 1: meditation teacher. How did those two worlds shape the questions
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Speaker 1: you now ask about modern life, leadership, and humanity?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, so I spent 15 years first as a diplomat,
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Speaker 2: then working in the Senate, and then working on White
13:53
Speaker 2: House programs. And a lot of that time was focused
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Speaker 2: on the what. So the things that we were trying
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Speaker 2: to accomplish, the policies we were trying to enact. the
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Speaker 2: ways we wanted other countries to behave. And then when
14:07
Speaker 2: I had a bike accident that took me out of
14:09
Speaker 2: the workforce for several weeks that made me work part-time
14:11
Speaker 2: for a few months, that really kind of disrupted my
14:14
Speaker 2: daily life, I turned to meditation as a way to
14:17
Speaker 2: deal with the life I was living. And what happened there, Victor,
14:22
Speaker 2: was I became much more intimate with the how of life.
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Speaker 2: So not just, did I show up for this thing?
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Speaker 2: Did I accomplish this thing? Did the policy get set up?
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Speaker 2: But how did I do it? Did I do it
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Speaker 2: in a way that reflected my values? Did I, in
14:37
Speaker 2: an effort to get some policy published in my White
14:40
Speaker 2: House days, did I actually make some of my colleagues
14:43
Speaker 2: feel unheard and unappreciated? What are the costs of that?
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Speaker 2: And so for me, when I had this journey to
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Speaker 2: mindfulness and meditation, it slowed me down enough with noticing
14:56
Speaker 2: those around me, noticing how I was treating my friends,
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Speaker 2: my romantic partners, my colleagues. And I'll be honest, Victor,
15:02
Speaker 2: I didn't like what I saw a lot of that.
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Speaker 2: And so this journey of having those two different paths
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Speaker 2: and writing this book is about how we make sense
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Speaker 2: of the world where we need to do things. There
15:13
Speaker 2: is a what to accomplish for a career, for a hobby,
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Speaker 2: for a to-do list. But also there's a how.
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Speaker 1: Let's go back to your pre-awakening days, pre-the accident, pre-everything
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Speaker 1: that happened there. Talk about your early life and your
15:31
Speaker 1: impressions during that time and what that brought into your career.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I don't want to overdramatize the change because, like,
15:39
Speaker 2: you know what? I was a good person. I was
15:42
Speaker 2: relatively kind. My parents were both lovely and gave me
15:46
Speaker 2: unconditional love. But the life I had was an interesting
15:49
Speaker 2: one because I was raised overseas as a son of diplomats.
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Speaker 2: And so our life was adapting to new countries, new cultures,
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Speaker 2: learning new languages, being in new schools, traveling for vacations
16:03
Speaker 2: and like far flung places. And so my life became
16:07
Speaker 2: very logistics heavy. And that followed me to thinking about
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Speaker 2: where I wanted to go to school and planning for
16:14
Speaker 2: my grad school and seeing how, how I could find
16:17
Speaker 2: the right job. And so it created this pattern of
16:21
Speaker 2: one thing after another. Logistics, logistics, logistics. And I became
16:26
Speaker 2: pretty good at that. I was good at accomplishing things.
16:28
Speaker 2: I was good at persisting and doing things. The problem
16:31
Speaker 2: was I wasn't always paying attention to how that felt
16:34
Speaker 2: for me. I found myself burning out a lot. I
16:37
Speaker 2: wasn't in touch with my emotions and noticing whether I
16:40
Speaker 2: actually wanted to do a certain job or not. And
16:43
Speaker 2: so for me, there was a lot of things happening
16:46
Speaker 2: underneath the surface that I wasn't paying attention to because
16:49
Speaker 2: I was just moving so fast and it was one
16:51
Speaker 2: thing after another.
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Speaker 1: Absolutely. You know, it's interesting. I had a 46 plus
16:59
Speaker 1: year career in welding technology, welding equipment and welding inspection,
17:05
Speaker 1: anything and everything to do with welding construction and so on.
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Speaker 1: And in my late, early 40s, mid 40s, I had
17:13
Speaker 1: a calling. And that calling led me to interfaith ministry
17:17
Speaker 1: in addition to my job. And the synchronicities in there
17:21
Speaker 1: are just so amazing, and I'm not going to take
17:24
Speaker 1: away a lot of your time with that, but one
17:26
Speaker 1: of the synchronicities was I went into that for one reason,
17:30
Speaker 1: and it turned out to be service in so many
17:32
Speaker 1: other ways afterwards, including as a chaplain for the Red
17:36
Speaker 1: Cross after 9-11. And one of the things that a
17:40
Speaker 1: friend of mine asked me many years ago, who knew
17:42
Speaker 1: both sides of my life, who asked, How do you
17:45
Speaker 1: qualify the fact that you have this day job in
17:49
Speaker 1: industrial welding technology and the other work, the spiritual work
17:53
Speaker 1: that you do? And my answer came out of me.
17:56
Speaker 1: I said, the day job pays my salary. I said,
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Speaker 1: the other work pays my solary. This word solary came
18:05
Speaker 1: out of me. And in fact, I'm actually working on
18:07
Speaker 1: a book myself called Solary, the Compensation of Spirit. So
18:11
Speaker 1: it's that balance that we find in our lives when
18:13
Speaker 1: we slow down and we look at it. Yeah.
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Speaker 2: I mean, a couple of things is kind of slowing
18:18
Speaker 2: down with that journey and just feeling a lot of
18:20
Speaker 2: gratitude that you notice that, that need to fill that
18:25
Speaker 2: soul of yours and you've done that. And what a
18:27
Speaker 2: beautiful thing. And I'm grateful for you sharing that story.
18:30
Speaker 2: And I couldn't hope, I couldn't help noticing that kind
18:34
Speaker 2: of turner phrase, whereas like, I don't want to cut
18:36
Speaker 2: into your time, like, you know, my time here and,
18:39
Speaker 2: I think what comes up for me there is sort
18:41
Speaker 2: of this time being between us. And for me, hearing
18:44
Speaker 2: about your journey doesn't feel like a digression from mine.
18:48
Speaker 2: It feels like a way for us to inhabit this
18:51
Speaker 2: time together and to feel our shared resonance of having
18:55
Speaker 2: one thing that's been part of our life for a while,
18:57
Speaker 2: then feeling called to making a pivot. I have a
19:01
Speaker 2: story that a lot of people who are listening to
19:02
Speaker 2: this might be able to resonate with your experience too,
19:05
Speaker 2: of feeling like, just one part of their life wasn't enough.
19:09
Speaker 2: And maybe it's after a job loss, maybe after the pandemic,
19:15
Speaker 2: feeling called towards something a little bit different in their life.
19:17
Speaker 2: And so I'm just noticing some gratitude for you sharing
19:19
Speaker 2: your story and that you're now working on a book
19:22
Speaker 2: to do that more. So appreciate that, Victor.
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Speaker 1: What happens to people, relationships, and communities when urgency quietly
19:31
Speaker 1: becomes the default pace of life?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's one of those questions that I
19:36
Speaker 2: imagine is deeply personal. And it's one of the reasons
19:40
Speaker 2: I wrote this book, not in a here are my
19:43
Speaker 2: 10 quick tips to optimize your life or to find
19:45
Speaker 2: peace amid the stress of life, because we each have
19:49
Speaker 2: different conversations. and different values and different moments where we
19:52
Speaker 2: notice the cost of speed. I have a chapter called
19:57
Speaker 2: The High Cost of Being on Time, and by that
20:01
Speaker 2: I mean that we can pay attention to where speed
20:06
Speaker 2: is costing us. One of the examples I like to use,
20:09
Speaker 2: because it's It's often a pain point for many people
20:11
Speaker 2: is traffic. And sitting in traffic, whether you're trying to
20:15
Speaker 2: get somewhere important or to the airport or to a
20:17
Speaker 2: business meeting, we all face that frustration of what happens
20:22
Speaker 2: when it's not moving the way we want it to.
20:25
Speaker 2: And I can imagine we can all feel, not just
20:28
Speaker 2: in our minds, but in our bodies, the difference of
20:32
Speaker 2: that Sunday afternoon when we're in our car and we
20:34
Speaker 2: have plenty of time and nowhere really to be and
20:38
Speaker 2: the kind of person we are when we're running five
20:41
Speaker 2: minutes late and our Google Maps ETA is going up
20:44
Speaker 2: because of traffic. And we're different kinds of people. I'm,
20:49
Speaker 2: you know, I'll be frank, I'm a bit of a
20:50
Speaker 2: jerk when I'm rushed. I'm a bit of a jerk
20:53
Speaker 2: when I'm behind and I'm going to be a lot
20:55
Speaker 2: less likely to let that driver in or to be
20:58
Speaker 2: graceful to the person who doesn't know where they're going
21:00
Speaker 2: and is going slow on the street. And so that
21:05
Speaker 2: for me is the stakes of this. It's noticing the
21:07
Speaker 2: kind of people that we are when we feel the
21:10
Speaker 2: sense of urgency in our life and reflecting on, is
21:14
Speaker 2: that the person I want to be? And for me,
21:16
Speaker 2: the answer is clearly no. And that leads to this
21:20
Speaker 2: deeper question of, okay, I don't like the person I
21:24
Speaker 2: am when I'm rushed, when I'm feeling behind. How do
21:27
Speaker 2: I build a life where I have a bit less
21:30
Speaker 2: of that? And not just blaming the world for being
21:33
Speaker 2: fast and there being many things to do, but taking
21:36
Speaker 2: responsibility for building a life where I can be the
21:39
Speaker 2: kind of generous person I say I want to be.
21:43
Speaker 1: As someone who spent a lot of time driving through
21:46
Speaker 1: New York City and still do to a certain extent,
21:49
Speaker 1: it's interesting because I used to be that jerk also.
21:53
Speaker 1: And when I say used to be, now what happens
21:56
Speaker 1: is if I'm stuck in traffic or someone's driving slowly,
22:00
Speaker 1: it gives me an opportunity to be observant of what's
22:02
Speaker 1: around me on the roadways. And we have some very
22:05
Speaker 1: beautiful roadways with a lot of beautiful trees. And growing
22:09
Speaker 1: up in the 60s and 70s, I'm what they used
22:12
Speaker 1: to call a tree hugger. And so consequently, I was
22:15
Speaker 1: able to go back into that tree hugging, even though
22:17
Speaker 1: it's just visually, and enjoy the time on the road.
22:21
Speaker 1: And I'm grateful that you shared that with us. I guess,
22:24
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm sorry, go ahead.
22:26
Speaker 2: I'm just going to sort of, again, I wanted to
22:28
Speaker 2: slow down with what you shared because it's quite profound.
22:31
Speaker 2: And it sounds very simple when you frame it that
22:33
Speaker 2: way of, okay, there's traffic. It gives me a chance
22:37
Speaker 2: to pay attention. It sounds simple, but actually that is
22:39
Speaker 2: a really important thing. Like you are noticing that there
22:44
Speaker 2: is something that is bad. You know, the story is bad,
22:47
Speaker 2: that there's traffic. And you're actually deciding this is an
22:50
Speaker 2: opportunity for something. And I think that applies to traffic.
22:54
Speaker 2: It implies to when we're waiting on someone to arrive
22:58
Speaker 2: for a lunch meeting and they're five minutes late. It
23:01
Speaker 2: applies to workplaces where a colleague is, you know, didn't
23:05
Speaker 2: respond to our email in time. We have choice in
23:08
Speaker 2: those moments. And I love your example of not just
23:11
Speaker 2: blaming traffic and getting all pent up and angry, but
23:16
Speaker 2: to say, oh, what's available now? What is here in
23:19
Speaker 2: this moment? And that's really practicing what this book is
23:22
Speaker 2: trying to put out there. So thank you, Victor, for
23:24
Speaker 2: sharing that.
23:25
Speaker 1: You're very welcome. And when I attended Interfaith Seminary, the
23:29
Speaker 1: founder and my teacher used to say that everything happens
23:32
Speaker 1: for a reason, for a higher purpose. We may not
23:35
Speaker 1: acknowledge it at the time, In retrospect, we may see it,
23:38
Speaker 1: but ultimately there's a higher purpose in everything that takes place.
23:43
Speaker 1: And when we recognize that, instead of anger or frustration,
23:47
Speaker 1: we respond with gratitude. Because without that event, that gratitude
23:52
Speaker 1: would not be possible.
23:53
Speaker 2: I love that. And I think that for me is...
23:57
Speaker 2: going back to this idea of how slowness gives us choice,
24:00
Speaker 2: because it's very normal to have a reactive part of us,
24:05
Speaker 2: especially in a world that puts so much emphasis on productivity, accomplishment.
24:10
Speaker 2: You go to LinkedIn and Instagram and everyone's accomplishing things
24:13
Speaker 2: and looking great and productive. And so it's so easy
24:16
Speaker 2: to focus on what do we achieve and when. And
24:20
Speaker 2: so when something in that vein is blocked, we don't
24:24
Speaker 2: get somewhere on time or our book wasn't accepted, et cetera,
24:27
Speaker 2: et cetera. It's normal for us to be reactive to that.
24:31
Speaker 2: And there's almost a fear response that comes as if
24:35
Speaker 2: we're being chased by a tiger. And so it's natural
24:38
Speaker 2: for us to feel the pain of having to wait.
24:42
Speaker 2: But this is what mindfulness 101 is, is paying attention
24:47
Speaker 2: to that story and asking, is it true? Is it
24:50
Speaker 2: the one you want to believe? And so I really
24:53
Speaker 2: like the way that you frame that of Yeah, like
24:55
Speaker 2: we choose how we respond to those moments. We don't
24:58
Speaker 2: have to get caught up in them.
25:00
Speaker 1: Absolutely. My guest is Alex Snyder. His new book, Sometimes
25:05
Speaker 1: You Should Be Late. Alex, please share with our listeners
25:08
Speaker 1: where they can get your book and find out more
25:10
Speaker 1: about you.
25:11
Speaker 2: Yeah, so my website is slowmindfulness.com. You can find my
25:15
Speaker 2: book wherever books are sold. I love it when people
25:17
Speaker 2: order it at independent bookstores because that's a great way
25:20
Speaker 2: to support those local institutions. It's like a slow way
25:23
Speaker 2: to buy a book. And one thing I'll put out there, Victor,
25:25
Speaker 2: is I also have a late-style quiz on my website,
25:29
Speaker 2: which is a great way to playfully engage with the
25:32
Speaker 2: kind of person that you are when you're running late.
25:34
Speaker 1: And we'll be back with more of Alex after these
25:37
Speaker 1: words on the OM Times Radio Network.
25:40
Speaker 3: OM Times Magazine is one of the leading online content
25:44
Speaker 3: providers of positivity, wellness, and personal empowerment. A philanthropic organization,
25:49
Speaker 3: Their net proceeds are funneled to support worldwide charity initiatives
25:53
Speaker 3: via Humanity Healing International. Through their commitment to creating community
25:58
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26:01
Speaker 3: a global scale. OM Times, co-creating a more conscious lifestyle.
26:07
Speaker 1: Back on Vox Novus, my guest this week is Alex Snyder.
26:10
Speaker 1: We're talking about his book, Sometimes You Should Be Late.
26:14
Speaker 1: The quiet rebellion of staying human in a world obsessed
26:19
Speaker 1: with urgency. Alex, you referenced the Good Samaritan study and
26:25
Speaker 1: the metaphor of horses wearing blinders throughout your work. How
26:30
Speaker 1: does urgency change what people notice and how they treat
26:33
Speaker 1: one another?
26:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I kind of want to take both of
26:37
Speaker 2: those in turn. So the horse blinders, I'll start with
26:41
Speaker 2: that one. is we talked about this a little bit
26:44
Speaker 2: when we referenced like how the brain responds. And essentially
26:48
Speaker 2: what happens is when there is a threat response in
26:50
Speaker 2: our brain, it's very natural for us to focus. Just
26:53
Speaker 2: like if you're a rabbit and you're running away from
26:56
Speaker 2: a predator, you're going to be less worried about finding
26:59
Speaker 2: a food source and a lot more worried about getting
27:01
Speaker 2: away from that coyote. And our brains work the same
27:04
Speaker 2: way with lateness and punctuality. So you might think about
27:08
Speaker 2: when you're in traffic or maybe walking somewhere and you're
27:10
Speaker 2: behind and you're much more focused on what's ahead of you,
27:13
Speaker 2: sort of getting to that destination, than you are at
27:16
Speaker 2: what's around you, whether that's the beautiful early fall trees,
27:21
Speaker 2: or maybe some old lady who needs help, or just
27:24
Speaker 2: saying hello to a neighbor. And so what these blinders
27:26
Speaker 2: do is they focus us towards some goal that we've identified,
27:30
Speaker 2: which is a great thing. The problem is they can
27:33
Speaker 2: often block things out. And that can be relationships. So
27:37
Speaker 2: maybe we're running out the door to a work meeting,
27:39
Speaker 2: and we don't see that someone in our family wants
27:41
Speaker 2: to connect. It can also be our physical bodies. Like
27:44
Speaker 2: I bike a lot and I've gotten a few bike
27:47
Speaker 2: accidents because I was Russian. And so those blinders were on.
27:51
Speaker 2: And the stakes of this are also relational. And so
27:55
Speaker 2: in the Good Samaritan Study, it's a fairly famous social
27:58
Speaker 2: psychology research study from the 70s at Princeton University. And
28:03
Speaker 2: the way the study was set up, there were seminary
28:06
Speaker 2: students who were asked to give a speech across campus
28:10
Speaker 2: as part of the study. Then along the way, there
28:13
Speaker 2: was an actor who was pretending that they needed help,
28:15
Speaker 2: sort of like grimacing in pain. And the question was,
28:20
Speaker 2: would these seminary students stop and help them? In the
28:24
Speaker 2: experimental condition, some of them were told, we're behind with
28:28
Speaker 2: the study, hurry up and get there. And some were
28:31
Speaker 2: told some variant of, you have plenty of time, just
28:34
Speaker 2: make your way over there. And what they found was,
28:38
Speaker 2: as you can imagine, a lot more people were willing
28:40
Speaker 2: to stop when they were in the low hurry condition,
28:43
Speaker 2: when they were told they did not need to rush.
28:47
Speaker 2: And again, these are like seminary students. And I think
28:50
Speaker 2: with your background here as an interfaith minister, it's kind
28:52
Speaker 2: of a fitting one. These are not selfish people. They're
28:55
Speaker 2: people who had dedicated their lives to helping other people.
29:01
Speaker 2: And when they had a moment of being able to
29:03
Speaker 2: help a real physical person in their life, the story
29:07
Speaker 2: of I'm late and I'm behind for some made up
29:09
Speaker 2: research study, it won out. And so speaking of horse blinders,
29:15
Speaker 2: you know, they were told to get there on time
29:18
Speaker 2: and they ignored someone who needed help. And when I
29:21
Speaker 2: first heard about this study, Victor, my first response was like, well,
29:25
Speaker 2: I would be the one to stop because I'm, you know,
29:28
Speaker 2: I'm a good person. But then when I look back
29:30
Speaker 2: to my life with some honesty and I think about
29:33
Speaker 2: the interns who I said I didn't have time to
29:35
Speaker 2: have coffee with, the friends who I said very rushed
29:38
Speaker 2: goodbyes to because I was running out the door. And
29:41
Speaker 2: I see that I had these horse blinders on too.
29:44
Speaker 2: And I wasn't the kind of person I wanted to
29:45
Speaker 2: be because I had this story of, I'm late, I'm behind,
29:49
Speaker 2: this is urgent.
29:51
Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting. My interfaith background training aside, I
29:57
Speaker 1: attribute much of my kindness and what I do in
30:02
Speaker 1: the world to my mother. She was the one who
30:05
Speaker 1: set the examples for me. And I'll give you two
30:08
Speaker 1: quick stories that will show where this comes from and
30:12
Speaker 1: how this works. So I go into a supermarket and
30:17
Speaker 1: I see a woman who's shopping. And she's a short,
30:20
Speaker 1: older woman. And she's trying to reach something on an
30:23
Speaker 1: upper shelf. And I always ask permission. I say, may
30:27
Speaker 1: I help you get that? May I help you take
30:29
Speaker 1: it down and put it into your basket? And they
30:31
Speaker 1: smile and say, thank you. Yes, it's amazing how the
30:34
Speaker 1: reaction that you get. And the other aspect was one
30:37
Speaker 1: day I was going into a center and about 100
30:41
Speaker 1: feet in front of me, I saw a woman collapse
30:43
Speaker 1: and fall onto the sidewalk and I immediately rushed over.
30:47
Speaker 1: And I said, are you okay? Can I help you?
30:49
Speaker 1: And it's always with permission. You never force kindness on anyone.
30:53
Speaker 1: Always ask first. And she said, will you? And I said, absolutely.
30:57
Speaker 1: And I was able to help her stand up again,
30:59
Speaker 1: made sure she was okay, spent a few minutes with her,
31:02
Speaker 1: and then she went on with her day. And again,
31:04
Speaker 1: these are things that are so really, you know, in
31:08
Speaker 1: every religion, there's an iteration of the golden rule. Do
31:12
Speaker 1: unto others as you'd have them do unto you. Love
31:13
Speaker 1: thy neighbor as thyself. That's what this is all about.
31:16
Speaker 1: And if everybody in the world just adapted that, what
31:19
Speaker 1: a world this would be.
31:20
Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely.
31:22
Speaker 2: And I noticed I kind of want to like slightly
31:25
Speaker 2: disagree with you, Victor.
31:26
Speaker 1: Okay, please.
31:27
Speaker 2: And I hope you're open to that.
31:29
Speaker 1: Absolutely.
31:29
Speaker 2: And what comes up for me is, you know, a
31:32
Speaker 2: lot of people were looking at our world and it's
31:34
Speaker 2: so easy to look at social media, politics, and to
31:38
Speaker 2: think about how like our world is so broken morally
31:41
Speaker 2: that like people just like are not caring for others
31:44
Speaker 2: or being so unkind. And I actually think we have
31:49
Speaker 2: a little bit wrong. I think the big problem isn't
31:53
Speaker 2: our sense of morals, not our sense of values. It's
31:56
Speaker 2: these background factors that cause us to neglect and to
32:00
Speaker 2: rationalize behavior that doesn't actually reflect those values. And so,
32:04
Speaker 2: my story about you, Victor, you gave these great examples
32:07
Speaker 2: of you helping out, is that you have built a
32:10
Speaker 2: life where you've slowed down enough so you can actually
32:13
Speaker 2: bring your values to life. I'm curious, does that feel
32:17
Speaker 2: true to you?
32:18
Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. But the When someone's in a desperate situation,
32:22
Speaker 1: I have always stopped, always, since childhood. And again, that's
32:26
Speaker 1: my mother's training.
32:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I love that sort of training. And I
32:29
Speaker 2: think what I'm getting from that training from your mother
32:33
Speaker 2: is it's helping remind you of your opportunity to help others.
32:37
Speaker 3: Yes.
32:38
Speaker 2: And I think so often, especially when we're late, especially
32:41
Speaker 2: when we have these blinders on, we're so focused on
32:45
Speaker 2: achieving something. And the funny little thing here, which makes
32:49
Speaker 2: it complex, and I love existing in complex spaces, is
32:54
Speaker 2: punctuality is also a way to care for people. Showing
32:57
Speaker 2: up for a friend, getting a coworker, part of a
33:01
Speaker 2: project when you said you would, that is a way
33:04
Speaker 2: to show care. And so taking your example of like
33:07
Speaker 2: helping an old woman in the supermarket, maybe you're running
33:10
Speaker 2: that errand before you're meeting a friend or working on
33:13
Speaker 2: some work project, that is going to delay you. And
33:17
Speaker 2: so there is some trade-off in there. And that requires
33:23
Speaker 2: us to slow down and choose. Is it worth it
33:26
Speaker 2: to help that person? Do we have time to linger
33:29
Speaker 2: for 20 minutes to follow that woman around the supermarket
33:33
Speaker 2: and help her find a number of things? There's any
33:35
Speaker 2: number of iterations on that. And so there is a
33:38
Speaker 2: sense of discernment and choosing that isn't as simple as
33:41
Speaker 2: if you see someone who needs help, help them. Because
33:44
Speaker 2: there is inability for us to be of service to
33:49
Speaker 2: other people by doing things, by showing up for them.
33:52
Speaker 2: And so, I think there's a little bit of like
33:54
Speaker 2: complexity here. And the thing that I want to offer
33:58
Speaker 2: to your listeners as, you know, maybe going towards a
34:01
Speaker 2: bit more of the what practically could this mean in
34:04
Speaker 2: our life is can we build in enough space that
34:08
Speaker 2: we can actually go slow? I have a chapter called
34:11
Speaker 2: The Kindness Buffer, which is about building and buffer into
34:15
Speaker 2: our days. You know, it's pretty, you know, it's not
34:18
Speaker 2: my brilliant insight. You know, there's so much productivity advice
34:21
Speaker 2: that says do fewer things, build in more time for transit,
34:25
Speaker 2: et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But I think what
34:27
Speaker 2: it gets wrong is it misses the stakes. It says
34:32
Speaker 2: leave early. So you're not late. My suggestion is we
34:38
Speaker 2: leave early and we build in time and So that
34:40
Speaker 2: we can be the kind of person we want to be.
34:42
Speaker 2: So when you go to the grocery store, Victor, you
34:45
Speaker 2: actually have time to help that old lady. Or if
34:48
Speaker 2: you see someone that has collapsed, you're able to spend
34:50
Speaker 2: time with them and make sure that they have the
34:52
Speaker 2: help that they need. Rather than saying, oh, I have
34:55
Speaker 2: exactly 2.3 minutes to be in the grocery store and
34:58
Speaker 2: then I got to get out of there. Kind of
35:00
Speaker 2: curious how that resonates with you.
35:01
Speaker 1: You know, I will take exception to this a little bit.
35:05
Speaker 1: The helping that woman in the grocery store took me
35:08
Speaker 1: about 30 seconds and I didn't follow her around. I
35:12
Speaker 1: went on my way after I helped her at that
35:14
Speaker 1: one event. The other aspect, though, if I see someone
35:17
Speaker 1: in distress, real distress, there's nothing more important to me
35:21
Speaker 1: than helping that person.
35:25
Speaker 2: I love that, Victor. And I still I kind of
35:27
Speaker 2: want to push you because I like making this a
35:28
Speaker 2: little bit like, you know, edgy. I think there's gradations here.
35:33
Speaker 2: And I think about, you know, saying hello to a
35:37
Speaker 2: new neighbor. They're not in distress. And they're also, there
35:41
Speaker 2: is a bid for connection there. There's a way for
35:44
Speaker 2: us to turn it towards community and to turn towards
35:48
Speaker 2: our to-do list. And so I think there are a
35:50
Speaker 2: lot of daily choices where we are sort of, you know,
35:53
Speaker 2: 50 on one side, 50 on the other. And when we're,
35:58
Speaker 2: what I've noticed, I'll be personal here, when I am
36:00
Speaker 2: constantly in a rush, a lot of these things that
36:03
Speaker 2: I want to do to be kind to the neighbors,
36:05
Speaker 2: to ask the barista how they're doing, to acknowledge the
36:09
Speaker 2: people who are working on the house across the street,
36:11
Speaker 2: like those kinds of things, I find that they get
36:13
Speaker 2: crowded out when I'm in a rush. And so like,
36:17
Speaker 2: I'm with you that like, you know, if you see
36:19
Speaker 2: someone who is like bleeding on the street, I think
36:23
Speaker 2: most people are going to not say, well, I got
36:24
Speaker 2: a meeting to get to, you know, I think most
36:27
Speaker 2: people are going to make that choice to be with
36:29
Speaker 2: that person. What I'm interested in is some of those
36:31
Speaker 2: more liminal spaces where we are making these judgment calls
36:34
Speaker 2: between do we spend an extra two minutes and hear
36:37
Speaker 2: about our kid's dream last night or do we rush
36:40
Speaker 2: out the door for that meeting? How do we choose
36:42
Speaker 2: in those moments?
36:44
Speaker 1: By affording those times, by putting those times built into
36:48
Speaker 1: the day rather than having it as a last minute decision.
36:52
Speaker 2: Yeah, kind of having that space and I hear that
36:54
Speaker 2: intentionality of connecting with people too.
36:56
Speaker 1: Absolutely. And just one more example. And this is something
37:00
Speaker 1: that probably set the stage for me more than anything else.
37:03
Speaker 1: When I was in high school, I used to take
37:04
Speaker 1: the New York subway system into the high school in
37:07
Speaker 1: the 1960s. And one morning on my way to school,
37:14
Speaker 1: a woman collapsed, fainted or something. I don't know exactly
37:18
Speaker 1: what the reason was. And she fell down right by
37:21
Speaker 1: the door. And people actually stepped over her to get
37:25
Speaker 1: off the train.
37:25
Speaker 2: Wow.
37:26
Speaker 1: And I started crying. I couldn't believe that people would
37:29
Speaker 1: do that. And I went over, I found the conductor.
37:31
Speaker 1: I said, you have a woman in distress here. And
37:33
Speaker 1: I waited until someone came.
37:35
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I'm grateful you had that presence. And it's interesting, like,
37:39
Speaker 2: you know, I think my first thought when I hear
37:41
Speaker 2: that story is this one of like judgment of people
37:44
Speaker 2: of like, how could they do that? And there's part
37:48
Speaker 2: of me that wants to sort of feel into their
37:51
Speaker 2: life and feel into their struggles and Like I said,
37:54
Speaker 2: we put a lot of emphasis on when we show
37:57
Speaker 2: up and the things we need to do. And I
38:00
Speaker 2: think that can lead people to do those behaviors, not
38:03
Speaker 2: because they're bad people, but because they have these blinders
38:05
Speaker 2: on too. And I think this, you know, feeling into
38:09
Speaker 2: you and your story and your values, Victor, I'm noticing
38:12
Speaker 2: just a lot of appreciation for you being someone who
38:15
Speaker 2: really doesn't just have values on a piece of paper,
38:19
Speaker 2: but actually lives them. So thank you for that.
38:21
Speaker 1: Thank you. You share that every email is not a
38:25
Speaker 1: category five hurricane. Why do so many react as if
38:30
Speaker 1: this and other lists and reminders are?
38:34
Speaker 2: It's tricky because like emails matter. I was talking to
38:37
Speaker 2: a friend of mine who's a therapist and she actually
38:43
Speaker 2: lost her ability to accept insurance clients because she missed
38:48
Speaker 2: an email about her renewal and it cost her six
38:51
Speaker 2: months and tons of stress and heartache because she missed
38:54
Speaker 2: an email. And so part of the challenge, and this
38:58
Speaker 2: is where my book is a lot more about discernment
39:00
Speaker 2: and choosing than it is about definitive rules, is that
39:05
Speaker 2: emails can matter. Doing things matter. Anyone that's like missed
39:09
Speaker 2: the detail about a plane, like what time it takes off,
39:13
Speaker 2: you know that these things matter. And the challenges where
39:17
Speaker 2: we do, you know, spend all of our time glued
39:20
Speaker 2: to our phone, because we're worried about getting that, that
39:22
Speaker 2: email from a boss, or like, we hear that email
39:25
Speaker 2: from the boss, and we're like, Oh, my God, I
39:27
Speaker 2: need to get back right now, is that there are
39:30
Speaker 2: these unconscious patterns. And this is what I talk about
39:33
Speaker 2: in my book that these exist for a reason. And
39:37
Speaker 2: for a lot of us, they're childhood patterns. For me,
39:40
Speaker 2: I talked a little bit earlier about this pattern of
39:41
Speaker 2: like logistics and doing and productivity being a window to self-worth.
39:47
Speaker 2: I imagine other people and yourself, Victor, have these stories around,
39:50
Speaker 2: you know, if you can't be on time, be early.
39:54
Speaker 2: And like the shame of being late. And so all
39:57
Speaker 2: these patterns affect the way that we interpret these modern stimulus.
40:01
Speaker 2: That could be a ping on your phone. Oh my God,
40:04
Speaker 2: text messages. Like I need to respond to this person
40:06
Speaker 2: or an email. And so for me, there's some emails
40:10
Speaker 2: that they're not quite category five hurricanes, but if you're
40:14
Speaker 2: waiting for some test results, if you're trying to follow
40:16
Speaker 2: your taxes, Like there are reasons to pay attention to
40:20
Speaker 2: these modern stimuli in our life. And if we're constantly
40:25
Speaker 2: glued to our phone, if we're constantly having to answer
40:28
Speaker 2: a work email in the late hours of an evening,
40:31
Speaker 2: we're supposed to be with their family. It takes us
40:35
Speaker 2: away from something else too. And so being conscious about
40:38
Speaker 2: not just Yes, there's values of being connected to technology
40:42
Speaker 2: and being in touch with the world. Yes, I agree
40:44
Speaker 2: with that. What's the cost? And how is it taking
40:47
Speaker 2: us away from the emotional punctuality, that presence that we
40:50
Speaker 2: talked about earlier?
40:51
Speaker 1: You know, it's funny. I don't know if you've seen them,
40:53
Speaker 1: but there are commercials about people's to-do lists being these
40:58
Speaker 1: giant monsters who come over, rip off a to-do note,
41:03
Speaker 1: and stick it onto the person's car or their face
41:06
Speaker 1: or whatever it might be. Are you familiar with those commercials?
41:09
Speaker 2: I haven't seen those, but it's very evocative. And it's
41:12
Speaker 2: interesting because it is the way that a lot of
41:14
Speaker 2: our minds work. And I notice that sometimes in my life.
41:18
Speaker 2: And the key is, and this is, again, from the
41:23
Speaker 2: mindfulness tradition, but it's something that we can all access too,
41:26
Speaker 2: is when we're feeling that pressure of the to-do list
41:29
Speaker 2: or being late, can we treat that as what I
41:32
Speaker 2: call in the book, like a flashing yellow light? I'm
41:35
Speaker 2: feeling like this thing is like, oh my God, a
41:37
Speaker 2: really big problem. Is it a problem? I don't know.
41:42
Speaker 2: I was talking to a woman this past week and
41:45
Speaker 2: she was rushing her kids to get to some event
41:47
Speaker 2: and her eight-year-old daughter said, hey mom, what happens if
41:52
Speaker 2: we're late? And that question just floored her and her
41:56
Speaker 2: answer was nothing. It's not a problem. But she was
42:00
Speaker 2: caught in this unconscious pattern of the, you know, the
42:03
Speaker 2: to-do list monster, the You have to be on time
42:06
Speaker 2: for church monster that prevented her from actually choosing how
42:10
Speaker 2: she wanted to inhabit that moment with her daughter. And
42:12
Speaker 2: so that I think what you're getting at with that example, Victor,
42:15
Speaker 2: is when we treat the to-do list and email as
42:19
Speaker 2: this monster that's following us that we have to respond to,
42:22
Speaker 2: it really takes us away from our agency to really
42:27
Speaker 2: decide what actually matters. And maybe we can take a
42:30
Speaker 2: couple of things off the to-do list and prioritize in
42:32
Speaker 2: that way.
42:33
Speaker 1: And the question that her daughter asked her, to me,
42:37
Speaker 1: reflects a fact that there are values in that family
42:40
Speaker 1: that generated that question.
42:42
Speaker 3: 100%.
42:43
Speaker 2: And the fact that she was open to that, that
42:46
Speaker 2: she didn't have a very like, we can't, you know,
42:49
Speaker 2: if we're late, we can't be like, we're a family
42:51
Speaker 2: that's on time. These sort of like rigid rules. The
42:54
Speaker 2: fact that she was open to that was really beautiful.
42:56
Speaker 3: Yeah.
42:56
Speaker 1: Absolutely. My guest is Alex Snyder. His book, Sometimes You
43:01
Speaker 1: Should Be Late. We'll be back with more after these
43:04
Speaker 1: words on the OM Times Radio Network.
43:07
Speaker 4: Humanity Healing International is a small nonprofit with a big dream.
43:12
Speaker 4: Since 2007, HHI has been working tirelessly to bring help
43:17
Speaker 4: to communities with little or no hope. Our projects are
43:21
Speaker 4: not broad mandates, nor are they overnight solutions. but they
43:25
Speaker 4: bring the reassurance that no one is alone and that
43:28
Speaker 4: someone cares. To learn more, please visit humanityhealing.org. Humanity healing
43:35
Speaker 4: is where your heart is.
43:37
Speaker 1: Back on Vox Novus, my guest this week is Alex Snyder.
43:41
Speaker 1: His book is entitled, Sometimes You Should Be Late, The
43:45
Speaker 1: Quiet Rebellion of Staying Human in a World Obsessed with Urgency.
43:52
Speaker 1: In the book, you distinguish between joyful rushing and frantic rushing.
43:58
Speaker 1: What's the difference and why does it matter?
44:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that question right after we talked about
44:04
Speaker 2: to-do lists. Because in the back of my mind, you know,
44:08
Speaker 2: when we're talking about to-do list monsters, when we're talking
44:11
Speaker 2: about that mom being asked, like, what happens when we're late,
44:16
Speaker 2: is that there can be consequences for being late, you know?
44:20
Speaker 2: You miss a plane that could derail your plans to
44:23
Speaker 2: attend a wedding. You don't get back to your boss
44:26
Speaker 2: or you're late for a job interview and they might
44:28
Speaker 2: judge you for that. And you might lose a promotion
44:31
Speaker 2: or lose a chance at the job. Like, we got
44:34
Speaker 2: to be realistic here. Like, there are consequences for being late.
44:39
Speaker 2: And what I've noticed is that feeling the stakes is very,
44:45
Speaker 2: very high here. Doesn't really help, especially when you can't
44:49
Speaker 2: change things like traffic or what someone's going to think
44:52
Speaker 2: about you if you're two minutes late versus five minutes late.
44:55
Speaker 2: And so that's why I talk about the difference between
44:57
Speaker 2: joyful rushing and frantic rushing. So frantic rushing is you're
45:02
Speaker 2: going to a job interview. Traffic's much worse than you expected.
45:05
Speaker 2: There's detours. You're in that car, you're gripping the steering wheel.
45:08
Speaker 2: It's like, oh my God, like I should have left earlier.
45:11
Speaker 2: And like, this is awful. I'm not going to get
45:12
Speaker 2: this job. I really like this job. And like, oh,
45:15
Speaker 2: and there's like, you're trying to change lanes. And it's
45:18
Speaker 2: this very frantic activating experience of the stakes are so
45:23
Speaker 2: high and I blew it. And this is so awful.
45:26
Speaker 2: And I imagine everyone has been there in that moment
45:29
Speaker 2: of frantic rushing.
45:31
Speaker 1: Absolutely.
45:31
Speaker 2: Joyful rushing, on the other hand, comes from a place
45:35
Speaker 2: of acceptance. I talk about the five stages of grief
45:39
Speaker 2: in my book and about how, like, when we accept
45:43
Speaker 2: the fact that it looks like I might be late
45:46
Speaker 2: for this job interview or I might miss this plane,
45:50
Speaker 2: what we can do then is we can get a
45:51
Speaker 2: bit of perspective and say, okay, I might miss it,
45:54
Speaker 2: but I want to try and make it. I can
45:56
Speaker 2: change lanes. I can do this. And maybe you have
45:59
Speaker 2: that beautiful satisfaction of like, hitting the green light and
46:02
Speaker 2: finding the parking spot and making it to the job
46:05
Speaker 2: interview just on time. And you can feel the joy
46:08
Speaker 2: of like overcoming the obstacle of traffic or whatnot. But
46:12
Speaker 2: it's a very different mindset and a very different feeling
46:15
Speaker 2: in the body. And the reason this feels really important
46:18
Speaker 2: for me is we can live our lives. I'm noticing
46:24
Speaker 2: I'm slowing down, kind of like feeling into the stakes
46:26
Speaker 2: of this in my life. We can live our lives
46:29
Speaker 2: in this frantic state of mind of always being behind
46:32
Speaker 2: with work. I'm on a book tour now trying to
46:34
Speaker 2: promote my book. I feel this like franticness of like,
46:38
Speaker 2: oh my God, I should have promoted it this way.
46:40
Speaker 2: And like, I should have pitched it to this thing.
46:42
Speaker 2: And I should have repackaged this content in this way.
46:44
Speaker 2: And it can feel this like frantic sense of like, oh,
46:46
Speaker 2: I blew it. And that's not a great way to
46:49
Speaker 2: live a life. It's not how I want to live
46:51
Speaker 2: my life. And so reframing that, repackaging that is like,
46:56
Speaker 2: You know what? Like, I didn't get my, you know,
46:59
Speaker 2: book out three months ahead of time like I should
47:01
Speaker 2: have and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But like, what
47:04
Speaker 2: can I do now? And how can I find joy
47:06
Speaker 2: in trying to have great conversations like this to promote
47:08
Speaker 2: my book? Those kind of things. And so, that for
47:11
Speaker 2: me is the difference. And I'm curious, Victor, how have
47:13
Speaker 2: you felt that in your life?
47:16
Speaker 1: It's interesting. When I was regularly working in business... I
47:22
Speaker 1: always made a point of being on time unless there
47:25
Speaker 1: was something dramatic as we had talked about before and
47:29
Speaker 1: That capacity to be on time Served two purposes number
47:34
Speaker 1: one it gave me the time to prepare what I
47:37
Speaker 1: had to do in order to I did a lot
47:40
Speaker 1: of training in business so to be ready to train
47:42
Speaker 1: people to answer their questions and And one of the
47:46
Speaker 1: things that I used to teach was a concept called
47:49
Speaker 1: taking ownership of customer satisfaction. And without going into a
47:53
Speaker 1: lot of details, it taught people in customer service and
47:56
Speaker 1: sales how to be aware of what the customer actually
48:00
Speaker 1: wants and taking the time to pursue that and making
48:04
Speaker 1: the difference between someone who will be buying because of
48:08
Speaker 1: a cheaper price or someone who will be buying because
48:11
Speaker 1: they appreciate what you've offered them. And it made a
48:13
Speaker 1: big difference.
48:14
Speaker 2: And if I could just like jump in on that, Victor.
48:16
Speaker 1: Sure, please.
48:17
Speaker 2: There's one place we haven't gotten in this conversation that
48:19
Speaker 2: I think is a really important place. And I think
48:21
Speaker 2: it's one that my book offers something a little bit
48:23
Speaker 2: different than a lot of the, you know, rest is resistance,
48:27
Speaker 2: how to do nothing, kind of like slower world. And
48:30
Speaker 2: also the faster world of like, here's how to optimize
48:33
Speaker 2: and like build habits, etc. Is that time is relational.
48:37
Speaker 2: And it's a way that we can navigate time together
48:40
Speaker 2: with communication, with understanding, with empathy, and a sense of
48:44
Speaker 2: broader perspective. And I love what you're sharing is that
48:47
Speaker 2: for a customer, lowest price is not the only thing
48:51
Speaker 2: that matters. Sometimes it's good customer service. Sometimes it's listening.
48:55
Speaker 2: Sometimes it's being with them and giving them like a
48:58
Speaker 2: recommendation for something that actually responds to their needs. It's
49:01
Speaker 2: so much deeper than just what's the cheapest thing. So
49:05
Speaker 2: too with time, showing up On time to meet a
49:09
Speaker 2: friend for lunch is only part of being a good friend.
49:13
Speaker 2: And once we're running 10 minutes late for whatever reason,
49:16
Speaker 2: we have a moment there to make time relational. We
49:20
Speaker 2: can blame traffic and parking and sort of that white
49:24
Speaker 2: lie that I think many of us do, at least
49:26
Speaker 2: I do sometimes. Or we can apologize. Or we can say, hey,
49:32
Speaker 2: this day is getting away from me. Would you be
49:34
Speaker 2: open to rescheduling? I know it's last minute. We can
49:37
Speaker 2: use our words, our authenticity, our empathy to communicate around
49:43
Speaker 2: time in a way that I call it time alchemy.
49:47
Speaker 2: You know, we're not making up new time, but we're
49:50
Speaker 2: making a bit less tight, a bit less stressful. And
49:53
Speaker 2: I'm sure we've all had that moment of running late
49:56
Speaker 2: for something and we're like feeling bad about ourselves and
49:58
Speaker 2: maybe judging ourselves for trying to pack in too many
50:01
Speaker 2: things or for running late. And then the person texts
50:05
Speaker 2: you and says, oh, I'm running 10 minutes late. I'm
50:07
Speaker 2: really sorry. And this is wash of relief. And what
50:11
Speaker 2: that is, that's time alchemy. That's a sense of we
50:14
Speaker 2: can communicate and use our words to make it feel
50:16
Speaker 2: a little bit less stressful. And I think that's what
50:19
Speaker 2: your customer service example brings up. It's not just about
50:22
Speaker 2: the cost. It's not just about when you show up
50:24
Speaker 2: for people. It's about can we relate to them authentically
50:27
Speaker 2: with vulnerability, with understanding, with compassion, with grace.
50:31
Speaker 3: Absolutely.
50:32
Speaker 1: Absolutely. Tell us about your late style quiz.
50:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a fun thing that I developed based on
50:40
Speaker 2: some of the ideas in the book. And it's a
50:43
Speaker 2: quiz that people can find on my website, slowmindfulness.com. And
50:47
Speaker 2: it's a fun way to kind of playfully feel into
50:51
Speaker 2: your own patterns and your own stories around lateness. So
50:54
Speaker 2: there's four different late style types. And when you answer
50:57
Speaker 2: the questions on the quiz, you can get a sense
50:59
Speaker 2: of how you respond to some of these pressures and
51:02
Speaker 2: and experiences that we have in our life of being late.
51:05
Speaker 2: And the part of it I'm most proud of is
51:07
Speaker 2: at the end, you'll not only see like what your
51:10
Speaker 2: late style is, but you'll get a little tidbit about
51:15
Speaker 2: what's beautiful about that, what values you're honoring, but also
51:19
Speaker 2: some things to pay attention to that may be, yeah,
51:22
Speaker 2: maybe kind of getting a little bit in the way
51:24
Speaker 2: of you living the life you want to live. So
51:26
Speaker 2: it's a late style quiz. Absolutely.
51:28
Speaker 1: Absolutely. What's your response to recent reports about AI and
51:33
Speaker 1: the possibility of AI eliminating humanity? And then that leads
51:38
Speaker 1: to the question, should AI read your book and learn
51:41
Speaker 1: from it?
51:41
Speaker 2: Oh, man. AI eliminating humanity. Yeah, I think what comes
51:49
Speaker 2: up to me is, you know, there's been a lot
51:51
Speaker 2: of talk recently in the news about slowing down AI
51:54
Speaker 2: and A lot of the counter stories around that are
51:59
Speaker 2: ones that are filled with this urgency culture we're in,
52:03
Speaker 2: the sense of we can't slow down. We have competitors
52:06
Speaker 2: to compete with. We have China, all these different forces
52:10
Speaker 2: that I think are largely unconscious. And I think what
52:13
Speaker 2: you're alluding to are some of the costs of unheeded AI.
52:19
Speaker 2: And I notice I always want to go more personal
52:21
Speaker 2: than just sort of abstract and when I choose to
52:24
Speaker 2: use AI in my life or for your listeners to
52:27
Speaker 2: think about using AI in their life to consider like
52:30
Speaker 2: what the costs are, like, what does, am I using
52:32
Speaker 2: this as a substitute for asking a friend for advice?
52:36
Speaker 2: Am I using this as a substitute for actually my
52:40
Speaker 2: own kind of creative work and my own thought process
52:43
Speaker 2: and sort of like really feeling into, yes, AI is
52:47
Speaker 2: a lovely tool and I'm not someone who's going to
52:49
Speaker 2: say like, you know, you know, Throw the computers away.
52:52
Speaker 2: Let's all go back to, you know, starting fires by hand.
52:57
Speaker 2: But we have to be conscious of what we're losing.
52:59
Speaker 2: And that can be at a personal level, but it
53:01
Speaker 2: can also be something a bit more existential. And so
53:04
Speaker 2: that's when I, you know, the subtitle of my book
53:06
Speaker 2: is this world obsessed with speed. Yes, speed is great.
53:10
Speaker 2: And yes, AI can help us in innumerable ways. The
53:13
Speaker 2: question is, if that's the only thing we're focused on,
53:16
Speaker 2: on getting AI fastest and most developed, what are we missing?
53:20
Speaker 3: Yeah.
53:21
Speaker 1: Absolutely. Can slowing down make our world more compassionate?
53:27
Speaker 2: Most of the things in my book, I tend to
53:30
Speaker 2: take a pretty like balanced position on of like this
53:35
Speaker 2: pros and cons to each of these things. And I
53:37
Speaker 2: think the answer to that question is a definitive hundred percent.
53:41
Speaker 3: Yes.
53:42
Speaker 2: Slowing down can make us more compassionate. And I want
53:46
Speaker 2: to be personal here. And this is maybe a bit
53:48
Speaker 2: of a risk to mention because, um, I've been vegan
53:52
Speaker 2: for six years, so I don't consume any animal products.
53:55
Speaker 2: And that journey to be more thoughtful about the things
54:00
Speaker 2: I put into my body and where they came from
54:02
Speaker 2: and the cost to that, to the environment and to
54:05
Speaker 2: other species, that has only come up for me when
54:09
Speaker 2: I started meditating. When I slowed down a little bit
54:12
Speaker 2: with the habits I have in my life and how
54:14
Speaker 2: they're affecting other people. And for me, that applies very
54:18
Speaker 2: deeply to animals and how I care about them and
54:21
Speaker 2: my choices for what I consume. But I've also seen
54:24
Speaker 2: it ripple out into asking the barista who looks at
54:29
Speaker 2: how they're doing or noticing gratitude to the people who
54:33
Speaker 2: are working the sound at events that I speak at.
54:38
Speaker 2: And so in my own personal life, I have seen
54:41
Speaker 2: that compassion and slowness are directly kind of proportional. And
54:47
Speaker 2: one of the quotes I use in my book, which
54:48
Speaker 2: is something I really, I really love, it's by a
54:51
Speaker 2: guy named Bayo Okomalafi. He's a philosopher from Nigeria. And
54:56
Speaker 2: he says, slowness is not a function of speed. It's
54:59
Speaker 2: a function of attention. And so what slowing down does
55:04
Speaker 2: is it helps us pay attention to our world. And
55:06
Speaker 2: that can be your example of being stuck in traffic
55:09
Speaker 2: in New York City and noticing the buildings, the street signs,
55:12
Speaker 2: a new business. But it can also be in noticing
55:15
Speaker 2: other people and their feelings and their worries and their concerns.
55:20
Speaker 2: And the last thing I'll say, it can also be
55:22
Speaker 2: about noticing ourselves and finding more compassion for ourselves as
55:27
Speaker 2: we're moving through our lives, slowing down, taking time to
55:30
Speaker 2: check in about how we are really doing. That is
55:34
Speaker 2: something that's possible too. But I don't think we can
55:37
Speaker 2: do that unless we slow down.
55:40
Speaker 1: My guest, Alex Snyder, his book, Sometimes You Should Be Late,
55:46
Speaker 1: The Quiet Rebellion of Staying Human in a World Obsessed
55:49
Speaker 1: with Urgency. Alex, one more time, please share with our
55:52
Speaker 1: listeners where they can get your wonderful book and find
55:55
Speaker 1: out more about you and this amazing work.
55:57
Speaker 2: Thanks, Victor. Yeah, my book is called Sometimes You Should
56:00
Speaker 2: Be Late. You can find it on my website, soulmindfulness.com.
56:03
Speaker 2: You can find it wherever books are sold. I have
56:05
Speaker 2: a Substack newsletter also called Slow Mindfulness. And take the
56:09
Speaker 2: light style quiz. I'll be curious to hear what style
56:12
Speaker 2: you are.
56:13
Speaker 1: Alex, thank you so much for joining us and sharing
56:15
Speaker 1: this wonderful information.
56:17
Speaker 2: Thank you, Victor. So great to be here.
56:19
Speaker 1: And thank you for joining us on Vox Novus. I'm Victor,
56:23
Speaker 1: the voice Furman. Have a wonderful week.