Latest / Trumponomics / Death and Despair in White America

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Death and Despair in White America · Trumponomics

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: White working class Americans are dying. If there's one socio
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: economic issue that cuts hard into the socio part of
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: that word and also probably played a key role in
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: electing Donald Trump as president, this is it. And Case
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: and Angus Deaton, the married academic couple who brought this
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: issue to the forefront, have just issued a follow up
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: paper that tries to provide some answers on why death
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  Speaker 1: rates among less educated white Americans have skyrocketed in the
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: past fifteen years. That's right, and we're about to speak
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: with Professor Case to discuss her work. You know, we
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  Speaker 1: usually don't think about economics as a life or death matter,
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: but for a large group of Americans, there's no other
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  Speaker 1: way to describe it. It's Bloomberg Benchmark, a podcast about
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: the global economy. I'm Daniel Moss, executive editor for Economics
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: at Bloomberg in New York, and I'm Scott Lanman and
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: economics editor with Bloomberg News in Washington. Dan, you know,
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: we've covered this issue several times before, and it really
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: is one of the most important issues that we can
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: discuss in our roles as economic journalists. We've done the
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: micro version of this issue with our interview with J. D. Vance,
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: the author of Hillbilly Elegy. We've even had our guest
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  Speaker 1: and case on the show before, but it's really worthy
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: of returning now to the macro issue that she and
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: her husband have studied so well, and Scott we haven't
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: heard the end of it. J D. E. Vance was
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: in the news just recently. He's returning to a hire
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: where much of the book is set, where it's going
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: to be involved in, among other things, looking for venture
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  Speaker 1: capital ideas from the local community. All right, Well, now
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: to our guest and case as Professor of Economics and
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: Public Affairs at Princeton University, where she is the rector
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  Speaker 1: of the Research Program in Development Studies. Among her many
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: honors is being awarded the Kenneth j. Arrow Prize and
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: Health Economics from the International Health Economics Association. As we mentioned,
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  Speaker 1: she was on our podcast almost a year ago, and
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  Speaker 1: we're very glad to have her back again today joining
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  Speaker 1: us from Princeton, New Jersey. Hello. Anne, Hi, it's good
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  Speaker 1: to be with you. So you finished the previous paper
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  Speaker 1: on this topic, I think almost two years ago. What
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  Speaker 1: kinds of findings do you have now that you didn't
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  Speaker 1: have before? We really wanted to drill down UM into
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  Speaker 1: the into the question of what is it that is
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  Speaker 1: killing these people either slowly with alcohol or with drugs,
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: or quickly with a gun. And UM, what we found
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  Speaker 1: was a really strong UM synchronization between these death rates
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  Speaker 1: and all sorts of other dysfunction for whites with less
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  Speaker 1: than a college degree. So I think the first the
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  Speaker 1: first big difference is that we've actually focused a lot
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  Speaker 1: more of our attention to people who haven't gone to college. UM.
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  Speaker 1: People with the B A are continuing to see their
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  Speaker 1: UM mortality rates drop UM, while people with less than
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  Speaker 1: a B A. So that's even people with some college
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  Speaker 1: but not a four year degree, are having a much
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  Speaker 1: harder time. They report poorer health, they report more pain,
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  Speaker 1: the report that UM, they have a lot more social anxiety.
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  Speaker 1: They're a lot less likely to get married. UH. They
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  Speaker 1: their cohabitations are are fragile. UM. And we think though
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  Speaker 1: the root cause of this could be and this is again,
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  Speaker 1: you know, this is just that it's consistent with the
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  Speaker 1: evidence that from the time they left high school and
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  Speaker 1: entered the labor market, their labor market opportunities are really
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  Speaker 1: much poorer than the generation that came before, and professor case.
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  Speaker 1: And we're not just talking about a mortality rate that's
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  Speaker 1: rising while others in the United States fall. There's a
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  Speaker 1: global phenomenon whereby mortality rates are falling in some of
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  Speaker 1: the most unlikely places. Yet for this group of Americans,
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  Speaker 1: it's going in the wrong direction. Throughout the developing world,
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  Speaker 1: mortality rates um are falling, income levels are by and
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  Speaker 1: large rising. But it's just not this group is alone,
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  Speaker 1: not just in the United States, but really in the planet,
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  Speaker 1: well certainly in the rich world. Um. You could name
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  Speaker 1: me your favorite European country and I could pretty much
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  Speaker 1: guarantee you that over this period that mortality rates in
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  Speaker 1: middle age were falling at about two percent a year.
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  Speaker 1: And that's the that is the rate that used to
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  Speaker 1: characterize the white working class that we're talking about. So
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  Speaker 1: terrific progress against heart disease anti hypertensive has just made
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  Speaker 1: a huge difference. People stopped smoking, so both heart disease
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  Speaker 1: and cancer rates fell. But two things happened to this group.
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  Speaker 1: One is that we stopped making progress on heart disease.
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  Speaker 1: So heart disease mortality flatlined after decades of progress. And
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  Speaker 1: because it flatlined, it brought to light the fact that
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  Speaker 1: mortality from these causes causes that the medical community has
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  Speaker 1: a much harder time knowing how to deal with. UM
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  Speaker 1: actually drove mortality rates overall up, and life expectancy came
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  Speaker 1: down in the US, and it came down because of
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  Speaker 1: this group. Children are doing well, the elderly are doing well,
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  Speaker 1: but middle aged whites are actually having a hard enough
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  Speaker 1: time now that it's UM affected overall life expectancy. Now,
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  Speaker 1: one thing you do in your latest paper that wasn't
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  Speaker 1: in the previous one is, uh, look around the United
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  Speaker 1: States and talk about how this phenomenon is common across
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  Speaker 1: almost all geographies in the United States, with white Americans
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  Speaker 1: with less than a bachelor degree having higher death rates
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  Speaker 1: than before. Is it possible to disaggregate this phenomenon from
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  Speaker 1: geography at all? Is there any difference in mortality rates
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  Speaker 1: between urban and rural areas. I know, Uh, there's a
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  Speaker 1: handful of exceptions to this trend, as you pointed out, Scott,
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  Speaker 1: Are you really asking whether it's concentrated in Wisconsin, Ohio, Pennsylvania,
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  Speaker 1: and Michigan. Well, it's really the it's most those happened
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  Speaker 1: to be Trump states, but it's really all over the country.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, you pointed out Utah, but was there any
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  Speaker 1: any differences that you could tell. It's interesting because the
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  Speaker 1: press is picked it up in different ways. UM let
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  Speaker 1: me let me not answer the question immediately, but is
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  Speaker 1: to say that, um, a lot of the headlines are
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  Speaker 1: dying white men, and indeed that is true. Some of
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  Speaker 1: the headlines want to focus on the fact that it's
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  Speaker 1: happening to women, and that's happening too, but it's it's
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  Speaker 1: really not a difference between men and women. It's really
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  Speaker 1: the difference cuts between education groups and and some of
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  Speaker 1: the headlines also want to make it a story about Appalachia,
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  Speaker 1: and it's certainly happening there. But there's no part of
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  Speaker 1: the country that has not been touched by this. And
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  Speaker 1: so we are hoping in the next ranche of research
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  Speaker 1: that we do to use the fact that we've divided
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  Speaker 1: the country up into about a thousand small areas, and
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  Speaker 1: we're hoping that we can piece this together better in
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: terms of local economic conditions. That work still remains to
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  Speaker 1: be done, but I can I can tell you that
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  Speaker 1: for say, whites in age forty five to fifty four,
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  Speaker 1: there are only three states in the country where mortality
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  Speaker 1: rates fell between say, and those were California, New York,
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  Speaker 1: and New Jersey. Was there any reason for that that
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  Speaker 1: you figured out yet or is that for your next
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  Speaker 1: part of research. There's more work to be done on that.
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  Speaker 1: There's also a small piece of the corridor between Dan
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  Speaker 1: and Washington, UM that goes all the way through New
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  Speaker 1: York and up to Boston, and we think that that's
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  Speaker 1: been protected by the fact that along that Northeast corridor
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  Speaker 1: educational attainment is much higher. But I want to go
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  Speaker 1: back also to the question about Europe, because UM, many
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  Speaker 1: countries in Europe were terribly hit by the Great Recession,
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  Speaker 1: right we think about Spain UM being so hard hit.
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  Speaker 1: But during the recession and to the end of the recession,
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  Speaker 1: actually mortality rates fell in Spain and in Italy and
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  Speaker 1: in Greece, and they fell in the countries that weren't
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  Speaker 1: hard hit too. So UM doesn't look like the Great
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: Recession actually had the kind of um effect that we
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  Speaker 1: saw in the US. But actually it was. It was
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  Speaker 1: already well entrenched in the US before the Great Recession
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  Speaker 1: ever hit. What role does the expanded social safety net
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  Speaker 1: that many people associated with Western European countries played in
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  Speaker 1: that divergence. That is a very good question, and again
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  Speaker 1: this is something that's going to be a focus of
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  Speaker 1: our attention and the next part of the work here.
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  Speaker 1: I don't have a good answer for you yet. It
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  Speaker 1: could be some combination of universal healthcare and stronger safety
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  Speaker 1: nets that protect people when they lose their jobs, UM,
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  Speaker 1: that actually make sure that there's money to keep body
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  Speaker 1: and sold together. UM. It could be that that's why
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  Speaker 1: when the Great Recession hit Europe, we didn't see the
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  Speaker 1: same thing happen. But I can't tell you that that's
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  Speaker 1: what happened for sure, because if you look in the US,
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  Speaker 1: blacks and a spa annex face the same social safety
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  Speaker 1: net that whites do, and yet mortality rates continue to
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  Speaker 1: fall for blacks and Hispanics in the US. Do other
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  Speaker 1: countries have the same prevalence of the opioid epidemic that
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  Speaker 1: we have in the States? No, indeed, I mean, and
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: that's we think of the opioids as being a real
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  Speaker 1: accelerant to what happened. Although death rates were rising from suicide,
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  Speaker 1: drug overdose, and alcohol related liver diseases well before the
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: introduction of very strong um prescription opioids in the US market,
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  Speaker 1: so we can we can go all the way back
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  Speaker 1: to and look what was happening, and the trend really
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  Speaker 1: didn't change much with the introduction, for example, of OxyContin,
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  Speaker 1: although it did pick up some. So we do think
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  Speaker 1: that it's an accelerant, but we don't think it's a
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  Speaker 1: root cause of what's going on. I was in the
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  Speaker 1: audience when Professor Dayton presented to the National Association for
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: Business ECONOLS in d C earlier this month. He highlighted
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  Speaker 1: the relative decline in the strength of trade unionism and
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  Speaker 1: in traditional religion meaning Catholic Church, the Protestant Church versus
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  Speaker 1: a new wave of religion that was very individual in
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  Speaker 1: its focus. Can you talk a bit about that. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: we're we're actually looking at what gives structure to people's lives.
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  Speaker 1: And historically it would be the case that a man
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  Speaker 1: might be able to follow his father and his grandfather
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  Speaker 1: into a trade and it would be a trade where
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  Speaker 1: the pay was good, the benefits were good. There was
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  Speaker 1: on the job training, if you work hard, you could
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  Speaker 1: move up, You could have a middle class life for
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  Speaker 1: your family. Those sorts of jobs are gone. On the
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  Speaker 1: religion side, the legacy churches, it's not that people are
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  Speaker 1: are less likely to report a religion. But the legacy
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  Speaker 1: churches the ones who mentioned Catholic Church or Protestant churches
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  Speaker 1: have given way to more seeking churches, which are much
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  Speaker 1: more individual oriented but provide less structure. And then marriages. Um,
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  Speaker 1: if you look at the birth cohort of nineteen fifty,
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  Speaker 1: two thirds of them were married by age thirty. If
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  Speaker 1: you go then to the birth cohort of nineteen sixty only,
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  Speaker 1: um no, I'm sorry, the ones born in nineteen fifty
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  Speaker 1: two thirds of the ones born in nineteen sixty. Only
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  Speaker 1: half of the cohort born in nineteen seventy is married
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  Speaker 1: at age thirty. So like if you think of marriage, job,
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  Speaker 1: religion is giving people structure in their lives, all of
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  Speaker 1: those have have sort of collapsed. Um, and we think
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  Speaker 1: that that leaves people vulnerable as well to despair and
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: so much of what you just said it sounds a
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  Speaker 1: lot like the economic side of what J. D. Vance
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: talks about in his personal story that he shares in
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  Speaker 1: Hillbilly LG. Obviously, he his book has gotten pretty wide play,
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: been widely recognized. I'm curious if you've had a chance
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  Speaker 1: to read the book or uh meet Mr Vance or
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: talk with him what you think of his story and
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  Speaker 1: how that connects with the research that you've been doing.
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  Speaker 1: I think it. I think it connects quite strongly. And
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  Speaker 1: I I read with a lot of interest that he's
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  Speaker 1: moving back to Columbus, Ohio and wants to actually put
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  Speaker 1: his body and his family um in the sort of
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  Speaker 1: where the heart of the problem is. I think that's
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  Speaker 1: that's really noble, and that's really brave, um, because we
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  Speaker 1: currently don't know how this is going to end. I
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  Speaker 1: don't have for you, aside from turn off that tap
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  Speaker 1: for strong opioids for chronic pain, you know, I don't
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  Speaker 1: have like checklist of things that if we do this,
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  Speaker 1: we can actually turn this problem around. And it's essential
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  Speaker 1: that we do that. And I think g. D. Van's
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: being willing to put himself in the line and say,
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: let me see what I can do is a terrific thing,
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: and I would encourage more people to do that. Aside
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: from being a great read, one of the reasons j
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: D's book got such buzz was people were trying to
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: explain the economic roots of Donald Trump's support in states
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: not normally associated with going Republican at the presidential level. So,
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: and Paul Krugman would put this rather bluntly, so I
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: guess I'll just paraphrase him. And he said this publicly.
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  Speaker 1: Why then, if a social safety net is so important
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: and unions are so important, why did these people then
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: vote against their own economic self interest. I think that
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: Bernie Sanders on the left and Donald Trump on the
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  Speaker 1: right recognized that slowly working class America was collapsing and
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: that no one in Washington was representing their interests. So
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: I think that both the Bernie Sanders phenomenon and the
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: Trump phenomenon are about people pulling a lever to say,
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: we're not being heard, We're not being recognized. Um are
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: our wages have been falling, We're not seeing a ladder
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  Speaker 1: up for our children, and we this is what this
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: is the way in which we think we can um
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: let people in Washington know that this is not working
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: for us. Well, they both certainly identified an issue, though
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: their prescriptions were quite different, but they were both out
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: to protect the working class. I think. Yet there was
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: also a platform that specifically said repeal and replace again.
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: Why would these people vote, as Krugman asks, to lose
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: a health insurance? Why would they do that? I think
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: it's the same reason why just having a social safety
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: net in the US that resembled that in Western Europe
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: may not work here. Um, the US is a country
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: I think where there's a large number of people who
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: believe that it's up to me to take care of
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: my family and it's up to my neighbor to do
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: the same for his, and that we don't want to
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: hand out. I mean, we have a just we have
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: a fishing guide in Montana where we go every summer
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: who is a veteran who fought in the Iraq the
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: Second Iraq War, and um, he needs medical care, but
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: he won't go to the VA hospital. And we asked whine.
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: He said, well, around here, we don't take hand doubts
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: and even and I was just a gas And I
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: mean we said, even though you fought for this country
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: and these are benefits that you deserve, and said down,
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: we don't take charity. So I think there's actually, um
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: a lot of resistance about giving up the you know,
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: individual sense of of self and purpose uh to a collective.
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: And I think that that is a block we're going
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: to come up against over and over. It really is
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: a hallmark of how a large number of Americans think
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: and behave so on the election issue, have you or
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: or are you going to cross reference some of your
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: geographic results with the vote count in to see if
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: the death rates correlate in any way with voting for
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: Trump por Clinton. I have to say, the day after
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: the election, I pulled down the county level um votes
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: for Clinton versus Trump, and they correlate extremely strongly. Point
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: for two. If that means anything to with mortality rates
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: of whites in middle age, one being the perfect correlation,
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: one being the perfect correlation, but point forward to being
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: very strong in any thing that looks in a cross section.
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: But a lot of people have correlated Trump votes with
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: things that are also related, you know, uh, the extent
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: to which manufacturing jobs are lost, for example, and I
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: think they're that's all of a piece. One of the
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: disturbing things we're finding is that this is a problem
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: that it's getting worse with every successive birth cohort. So
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: it's so the people born in nine eighty are having
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: a harder time than people born in nineteen seventy, who
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: are having a harder time than people born in nineteen sixty.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: So it's not just the baby boomers moving through and
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: that everything's going to be fine. At the tail end
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: of that, it's it's way into gen X now as well,
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: and it doesn't show any signs of slowing down. The
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: phrase you use in your paper is cumulative disadvantage. These
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: are things that add up over the course of a
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: person's life, not getting a bachelor's degree, not getting a
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: good job, not getting married, and so on, until they
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: end in deaths of despair, as you call it. Is
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: the bottom line here that the US economy has been
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: changing dramatically, shifting away more and more from manufacturing to
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: a services oriented economy and to terms of education and skills.
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: That a certain cohort that just happens to be many
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: white working class Americans is not keeping up with these changes.
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: It's the data are entirely consistent with that story. So
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: we want to pull that apart further and see the
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: extent to which we can quantify that. But yes, i
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: the data. That's what the data seem to suggest. And
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: one of the things we've also found is that what
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: we call return to experience has fallen in the labor market.
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: That generally, the older you get, the more experience you have,
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: the more efficient you are your job, the higher your
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: wages become. And we're not seeing that same return to
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: experience for younger and younger birth cohorts. And I think
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: if you go to a service economy to a gig
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: economy where there's not that much experience necessary for some
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: of these jobs, UM, people don't see themselves in ten
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: years time having moved up the ladder. And that is
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: I think an incredibly serious problem. What what we do
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: about education. Not everybody wants to go to college, not everybody,
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: um has the wherewithal to go to college. But we've
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: got to change our education system in some way personal opinion, UM,
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: so that um we provide the skills for people that
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: that they'll be able to use in the twenty one
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: century economy. And I think the schools currently just aren't
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: keeping up with the changes that are necessary, you know,
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: and over the centuries, as you know, economic cycles rise
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: and full. If you take these manufacturing areas of Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania,
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: three or four hundred years ago, it was all agriculture,
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: and before that land was owned by the indigenous inhabitants
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: of this continent. And similarly, when the Industrial Revolution came
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: to northeastern England. The cotton mill and the spinning wheel
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: was replaced Shore Luod. It's busted up a few workshops
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: in Manchester and Liverpool, but those cities rose again on steel, shipbuilding,
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: pop music. Why should we be so head up, wound
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: up and concerned about this group, this slice of industry,
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: in this portion of the country. I would say we
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: should be concerned because these people are dying in middle
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: ages where they have no business dying. Their despair is
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: actually palpable that at any given age, year on year
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: they report more mental distress, they report um, you know,
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: poor psychological health, and we I think if we want
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: to be a country, one country, we're going to have
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: to find a way to weave ourselves back together again.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: And it's a depressing issue, but it's one that is
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: not going to be going away anytime soon and one
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: that we will surely be watching for years and generations
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: to come. Thank you so much for taking the time
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: again to be on benchmark today. Thank you so Dan.
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: Is this ever going to change? Is this issue? Is
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: there anything that you think can be done to actually
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: reverse this incredible increase in the death rate among white
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: working class Americans. The forces at work almost seem as
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: profound as the statistics that Anne cited. I try to
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: get her to talk a little bit about this issue.
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: She rised at the start where it might end, and
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: there was one thing she said just to the closing
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: there that stoffled me, and we should have it back
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: on to talk about this said, if we want to
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: remain one country. Did you notice that it now that
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: you're pointing at again, it is quite a profound statement. Yes,
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: implication being that this doesn't end will if you have
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: the death rate cleave off so so prominently from the
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: rest of the country. This is obviously more than just
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: an economic issue for our statistics. This is this is
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: life and death, and it could very well be a
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: change in the republic that makes news in more ways
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: beyond these statistics. Benchmark will be back next week and
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: until then, you can find us on the Bloomberg terminal,
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot Com, our Bloomberg app, as well as on iTunes,
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: pocket casts, and Stitcher, or wherever you might enjoy finding podcasts.
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: While you're there, take a minute to rate and review
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: the show so more listeners can find us and let
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: us know what thought of the show. You can follow
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: me on Twitter at at scott Landman Dan. You are
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: at at Moss Underscore. Echo Benchmark is produced by Sarah Patterson.
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: The head of podcast is Alec McCabe. Thanks for listening,
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: we'll see you next time.