Latest / We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits / 101. Donor Relations and Fundraising Collide... For Good - Mark Lanum

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101. Donor Relations and Fundraising Collide... For Good - Mark Lanum · We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits

• 0:01
  Jonathan McCoy: Hey, I'm john.
• 0:02
  Unknown: And I'm Becky.
• 0:03
  Jonathan McCoy: And this is the we are for good podcast.
• 0:06
  Becky Endicott: nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions and the growing pressure to do more, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.
• 0:15
  Jonathan McCoy: We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories, all to create an impact uprising.
• 0:23
  Becky Endicott: So welcome to the good community. We're nonprofit professionals, philanthropist, world changers and rabid fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.
• 0:34
  Jonathan McCoy: So let's get started.
• 0:37
  Unknown: Hey, hey, Becky, welcome, everybody.
• 0:39
  Jonathan McCoy: It was good to be here.
• 0:40
  Becky Endicott: It's good to be here. I love that we are talking to somebody who lives in the tiniest state in the country.
• 0:48
  Becky Endicott: And is but is doing the most groundbreaking massively cool things that we're going to talk about in the donor relations space. Today, really,
• 0:55
  Jonathan McCoy: we're kind of getting back to some basics and talk and donor relations, some core philosophies, but also some disruptive things of like how the industry is changing, because everything has changed in the last year, it feels like, but we're talking to mark Lanham today. And he is the Senior Director for donor relations for Brown University. And let me just tell you, he came as a referral from one of our dearest friends and colleagues who honestly taught me what donor relations even means. And that's Michael Shaw, who's led that effort at Oklahoma State University Foundation for many years, and just an all around amazing person, too. So Mark, you know, has this impressive career, he has led this donor relations for also at University of Washington for many, many years. And he has served as a board member for the Association for donor relations professional, really the professional association that really serves this industry. So well, adrp. He's a past case, donor relations conference chair, so he is just serving and helping elevate this profession.
• 1:52
  Jonathan McCoy: So much. We're excited for everything that he has to teach us. But let's get to the real important part of his bio. In Mark's previous career, he was a youth pastor, which deserved some high fives hanging out with all the young kids. But also he worked at a video store. How many of you guys remember what a video store was? Like? Well, Mark was the guy of the reason why we need to be kind and rewind our videotapes. Right? So you have to do that. So Mark, welcome to the podcast. We're so delighted to have you here today.
• 2:20
  Mark Lanum: Thank you glad to be here. excited to be a part of this.
• 2:23
  Jonathan McCoy: Well, we're excited to jump in to donor relations, we have a lot of people that love this part of our business. And I'll tell you, our some of our most popular podcast episodes have been talking about stewardship and donor relations, because I think it's on everybody's mind of how we can do this better. So I'd love to just kind of jump in and hear your story of what drew you into, you know, geeking out on this topic of donor relations, and why did you want to stay there?
• 2:47
  Mark Lanum: Yeah. Well, it's funny, you know, you talk about how did you get into donor relations? You know, I think it's like a lot of people in advancement. I used to say, although I think this is changing, that nobody sets out to have a career and advancement, you just kind of back into it, or fall into it, or if it's you or something that was sort of the the same thing for me. You know, I ended up I had been a youth pastor before, like you said, and, and got to a place where we needed to provide for my family. And so I ended up in this job that led to this career in donor relations that I never anticipated. But when I got into it, I think what I found was that, especially because of where I was, it was a good blend of people and nerd.
• 3:29
  Mark Lanum: I'm a people person by nature and a computer nerd by choice.
• 3:36
  Mark Lanum: And so you know, look, I think there's a, an understandable, but the false assumption that when you talk about a system, you're you're talking about something mechanical and something impersonal and detached. And yet, you know, I think about it in terms of, hey, how do I do something really good for people, but just on a big scale? And, and so working at Washington, and at Brown now, you know, this, this notion of, hey, how do you create an object called an ecosystem that does this that treats people well, and yet is able to do it at scale? That's something that I just find it you know, pretty interesting. It just, it resonates with me. And so that's why it sticks with me. I think, ultimately, you know, at the bottom, though, is just a fundamental belief of mine, that just people matter that you matter. And, you know, in terms of the folks I work with, that's one of the things I I try to always start with and end with and fill the middle with is, hey, yeah, you know, we're doing this hard work. It's good work.
• 4:37
  Mark Lanum: And it should be fun too. But we're doing it because you matter and the people we're serving matter. And so, you know, donor relations to me just fit perfectly well with the way I am.
• 4:50
  Becky Endicott: Mark just named the first value of our company,
• 4:53
  Jonathan McCoy: just completely endearing.
• 4:54
  Becky Endicott: Everyone matters, and
• 4:56
  Unknown: I nailed it.
• 5:00
  Becky Endicott: Thanks for coming on today. That was a great episode. So
• 5:03
  Mark Lanum: thanks for having me Have a great day everybody.
• 5:06
  Becky Endicott: I'm just thinking about the genius the that I wouldn't even create a parallel between of being a youth pastor, being a video store worker in going into donor relations, because you have there you have the heart, there you have the hustle, you know, and you're coming into a space, I absolutely love what you're saying about just meeting people where they are and making sure that everyone feels seen and unique, because that is the secret sauce of donor relations.
• 5:38
  Becky Endicott: And I just have to say I hate to globally lump people in as being all one thing. But if you think about a lot of people in donor relations, they're about the nicest people. You know, there's a reason they're in that space, because they understand connection, they understand how to bring a cause and an impact and a human together. I don't even want to say a donor like a human being together. And I just think that's really incredible.
• 6:01
  Becky Endicott: So I think donor relations is it's always a great topic. But I'm really curious about your thoughts of the new normal for donor relations, like in a COVID and post COVID. World, I'd love to explore some of the trends of that, and what are you're seeing as the future of donor engagement?
• 6:18
  Mark Lanum: Well, you know, I think last night with some friends who are not donor relations, that somebody asked the question when the pandemic is over, like, when do we when is that actually going to be but you can imagine that what's gonna be the new normal, and they were referencing, in particular, after 911, you could no longer go to the gate to see somebody off or to welcome someone. And that never changed in that way, never went back. So it's sort of, that's how I think about it, what parts of this are never going to go back. I think one thing that's never going to go back, as you're always I think we're always going to have some element of this work can be done remotely. And you know, there's challenges that are going to be associated with that, to be honest. And those are ones that I particularly care about, how do you maintain a sense of Team A sense of cohesion? How do you have those relationships when you're doing everything virtually, on the other hand, the benefit of that, you know, one of the main benefits that I keep thinking of is, if if the job isn't geo isn't location specific, the hiring pool becomes massive, and the ability to attract talent, not based on their willingness to relocate or their, you know, location within, you know, a reasonable drive from wherever you are. That, to me is exciting. I think there's opportunities specifically for diversity there. And I also just think you have a much bigger pool of people to draw from.
• 7:41
  Mark Lanum: And, you know, one of the things that I've seen recently, in my last year at Brown is we did a bunch of hiring, and we had people who we brought in who work from Brown, and that's not because people at Brown are bad or anything like that. It's the but the infusion of ideas and thoughts from from elsewhere has, I think really helped helped us a lot. And so the notion of it that you could hire from wherever the diversity of ideas that you would bring from wherever, you know, around the world, I suppose if somebody wanted to work from home tonight is something that is a real benefit to one of the changes that that I think is gonna happen, you know, so I think that's a big one.
• 8:22
  Jonathan McCoy: I love that we talk about it, Becky coined or not, didn't coined the phrase, but she connected us to the phrase of cognitive diversity, just surrounding yourself with different minded people. And I think this plagues the nonprofit industry, because we go to our conferences, we show up in our little dress pants, and we listen to what other people are doing in our sector. And it even narrows you down so small that you don't look at how are the best customer service experiences being delivered in every industry and trying to take some of the mindsets and principles. So I'm very much here for that conversation.
• 8:55
  Mark Lanum: Yeah. You know, that makes me think so several years ago, like a decade ago, I guess, when I was at Washington, I was trying to figure out how to make the case to do a donor portal.
• 9:05
  Mark Lanum: And then one day, this donor calls me I know, I don't remember who he was, he wasn't a big donor. But he wanted to know, you know, kind of how much you've given total and particular gift. And while I'm looking this up for me, he says, Don't you guys have like a website or something where I could just look this up for myself, I don't want to bug you for something like this. And and to me, that was sort of the the example that I needed to say, hey, look, we need to do this.
• 9:30
  Mark Lanum: And here's the thing we have to keep in mind. It's not what our peers are doing that is shaping what they're expecting. It's what the marketplace is doing.
• 9:37
  Mark Lanum: So when people when when I say to our leaders, hey, we need to do this and be like, Well, what does you know, when I was watching this? What are UCLA Michigan who are brown, like what do I believe here's do I'm like, yeah, I'm not sure I do. I do care, but I'm not sure I care. Because I think it's more like Amazon and the banks and you know, all those on Netflix and all those online.
• 9:59
  Mark Lanum: experiences in particular, that are shaping people's expectations. And I just go back to that guy all the time, who you just had it in his head that this is something that you should have, shouldn't you have, and he was trying to make you feel bad,
• 10:11
  Unknown: right?
• 10:12
  Mark Lanum: those expectations are changing, and we are not driving them, we are trying to keep up with them.
• 10:18
  Becky Endicott: And I love the fact that, you know, you will have leaders in your organizations who are always going to go to what's the best practice, what's the benchmark.
• 10:27
  Becky Endicott: But before you go there, we should be listening to our people, you know, our people will tell us what they want, they will tell us what we need.
• 10:33
  Becky Endicott: And kudos to you for leaning into that conversation and using as a light bulb moment. Because it's going to only strengthen the engagement that you have with your donors, it's going to build more trust, I have to think it's going to build more efficiency on the back end, on the upside. I mean, it's like Win Win, win, win win. And it's also to the power of You don't have to be a massive donor to bring great ideas to the organization that you care about. So great job listening to that.
• 11:02
  Jonathan McCoy: And I think what you said too, about hiring, hiring diverse talent. I mean, we're constantly trying to lift this conversation needs to be talked about more. And you've just presented, I think, a one minute case statement, why nobody has an excuse not to be hiring with diversity of mind knowing that so many roles can be played from anywhere in the country. And so thinking about that completely changes the talent pool that you're looking at. So love that.
• 11:26
  Becky Endicott: Yeah, I want to I'm really curious about the trends in the donor relations and stewardship space that you're paying attention to, what's something that you're seeing, especially as it relates to people who might be listening right now that are in really small shops, or even in big shops?
• 11:42
  Mark Lanum: I think one of one of the things I'm seeing that is, I don't have a good answer for just to be honest, but I think it's, you know, the first step is admitting you have a problem. I think one of these is that, I don't know if it's fundraisers who are doing this, or if it's just donors who are doing this, but it seems like conversations around New gifts go immediately to the very specific right away. And that's a problem. Because just for example, make I'll make one up off the top my head, let's say somebody is wants to give us several million for a scholarship. And but they want it to be for students from this town, in, you know, Northern California or something like that, right? Well, if there's like five of those students right now, that's great. Let's go five or 10 years down the line, do we still have that?
• 12:35
  Mark Lanum: Because now because we made the donor happy in the moment, we have a donor relations problem later on when we can't give that scholarship to a student from that town. And so because we have an educated donor, so my friend Jim McGrath at MIT always says we educate our donors about what to expect. And if we don't, you know, fundraisers in particular, because they're the ones sitting in front of a donor, if they don't educate the donor on what to expect, I fear, we're setting a lot of donors up for disappointment, at least in the long term, if not even even sooner. So that to me is it makes the case for donor relations, people, especially those in the compliance space, the gift agreement space, we have to do a better job of getting out in front of our fundraising partners, and help them understand why you don't want to lead with, hey, just tell us what you want the student to look like or be like.
• 13:31
  Mark Lanum: And we'll do that you got to start with what can the university really do with that money, as opposed to just giving the donor exactly what they want? That doesn't sound donor centric? On the surface? I understand. But the truth is, in the long run, it absolutely is because it's trying to position their gift for long term success, not just short term satisfaction. And I think that's part of being a good donor relations professional is you don't just think about the short term, you're thinking about these things over a longer period of time. Okay. I mean, that's another one of those trends that I'm concerned,
• 14:04
  Becky Endicott: that is so good.
• 14:04
  Becky Endicott: I'm so glad you brought up that example, because we have a new community app. It's pretty fledgling, but someone literally posted this question in the community app. If you're not on there, please go to we're for good, comm backslash, hello, get in. It's completely free. But somebody just literally posted this exact problem in their university space. How do I get donors off of these extremely narrow and restricted ideological ideologic ideologies that they have? And the feedback on it was so interesting, and I actually think looking at it through the lens of donor relations is the best idea.
• 14:40
  Becky Endicott: Because you come at it with a heart of, hey, we're on the exact same team and we want the exact same things which is it to your point in your example, in this other person's example, we want to help send kids to college and we know that that is the ultimate goal. Yes, you may have an idea about what You that child looks like or what kind of major they have or where they're from geographically. But at the end of the day, we just want to send worthy kids who want to make a difference to college.
• 15:09
  Becky Endicott: And I think that is the mind shift that we need to employ, especially like for our major gift officers and our frontline fundraisers who are going out and fostering these relationships. It is incumbent upon us to have those conversations that say, yeah, we can do that. But have you considered that if you pool your money here in this unrestricted fund, let me tell you about the kind of kids we're serving there right now. Boom, you have three examples of stories of an all of a sudden you humanize that unrestricted fund where it doesn't look like it's just going to a group of people, I just think this is that was a really good hack that I think anybody can employ, and where I think our donor relations professionals can really educate us.
• 15:55
  Jonathan McCoy: And when you think that it's not donor centric, it's actually the epitome of donor centricity by saying we care about you long term, and that your gift has a ripple forever, you know, here at this organization,
• 16:06
  Mark Lanum: okay, it's saying I don't want to let you fail, which you wouldn't say it to them that way. But that's the implication. If we do it, the way you're describing, we can support see, as the experts in what we do, this is not going to work the way you think it's going to in the long term. And I'm committed enough to you to tell you the hard truth here, which is, maybe we should do this differently. Wow, that's hard. That's really,
• 16:28
  Jonathan McCoy: yeah, but so much trust. And just getting on the same page comes out from conversation like that.
• 16:33
  Mark Lanum: It also though, again, I want to, I want to reiterate this, because this is something that's important to me. It's what can help forge the donor relations, fundraiser partnership, and an absolutely has to be a partnership, because, you know, frankly, fundraisers need us. And we need them. And, you know, this is I've said this several times that fun, fundraising in general is a team sport. And there's a temptation, I think, to assume that every fundraiser knows how to do absolutely everything. And they know how to do a lot. And that's good. But it's also not necessarily fair to expect them to understand absolutely everything, if we don't put ourselves in front of them and help them understand, you know, help educate them. From the perspective of the university, and from the seat of those who have seen 100 of these agreement kind of things. We're robbing them of that insight that would be very valuable to them, to the donors, and ultimately, you know, to the institution, as well. So the partnership just matters so much.
• 18:05
  Jonathan McCoy: Well, I would love to just kind of dive into that was one of the topics we wanted to go in, you know, deeply with you how, you know, how does a team get started?
• 18:13
  Jonathan McCoy: Let's say they are trying to they're kind of bridging this from feeling like two separate teams, how do you come together and find that common ground and kind of give some practical guidance for nonprofits out there?
• 18:24
  Mark Lanum: Yeah. You know, these things are always sound simpler than they really are.
• 18:29
  Mark Lanum: Right?
• 18:31
  Unknown: Like everything I
• 18:32
  Mark Lanum: want to acknowledge that like,
• 18:33
  Becky Endicott: Oh, no, politics is
• 18:36
  Mark Lanum: just flip the switch, and it's all gonna be perfect. No, it's not. I mean, this is because here's, here's why it's relationships and relationships ultimately, are messy, beautiful thing. And so, you know, what does it start with, it starts with making, really forging relationships with the fundraisers, who you think want to have relationship with you, or are willing to have a relationship with you. And to do that, I think, in particular, it involves going with your hat in your hand and saying, Tell me about what you do. Help me understand. And help me get into your space a little bit. Because as you do that, then through asking them questions, or sharing information or stories with them, you can help them understand yours. And as you forge that relationship, then you begin to have a better understanding. I gotta tell you, I mean, it is, I think some of the best changes that we could make are the ones where we have learned something from a fundraiser about what, you know, what they experienced, as opposed to us just kind of sitting there, you know, in our offices going today, I think this is, this is a thing, right?
• 19:42
  Mark Lanum: So to hear it directly from them and make an adjustment is something that I think is powerful in that one, it makes us better and two, it says to them, we want to be your partner, we want to we really want to support you. And then I think after that I think a lot of it is just you have to have regular interaction. And this is where the whole work from home thing is going to be a challenge. Because if you don't have regular interaction, if you don't maintain those relationships with them, I think you're gonna have a challenge.
• 20:12
  Mark Lanum: One of the things I'm looking to set up in the next year is for for myself, just as the lead for donor relations is what I called a termed in the plan a donor relations advisory group. And yes, have tried to that I realized the acronym is drag.
• 20:29
  Mark Lanum: But But the idea there is just I need like Four or five volunteer fundraisers who like me, who like donor relations, and I want to meet with them? Probably once a month, every six weeks? Just to hear from them, what are you seeing? What are you experiencing? And and then I can have the opportunity in that too to go, Okay, well, here's why we say you shouldn't put that restriction on a particular fund or why the fundamentalism is this or whatever. Again, just to foster that relationship, because those, you know, it's trust, and it's relationships, that's the fuel that makes the whole thing go. And you know, just so the drag, I'm hoping is one of those things that would really help foster in that partnership and inform give us more direct first hand information about things we need to do different, because, to me, it's very important to be able to be adaptable, and flexible.
• 21:33
  Mark Lanum: Because times change, people change demands change, when we're just talking about trends.
• 21:39
  Mark Lanum: So if we don't know what we need to change, then it's gonna be hard to do the right thing.
• 21:43
  Becky Endicott: Be careful, Mark, you're talking about creating a cohort, and you might have hundreds of people coming over. Because I do think that what you have just said, is the elephant in the room and fundraising to me, and after you know, 100 podcast episodes or interviews, sitting down, one of the most prevalent themes that we're hearing over and over is is so ironic to me is that people in the advancement and development space have trouble listening. And it which is so ironic to me, because we're in the business of listening well, listening keenly. And I think what you bring up is such a salient point about allowing equal voice to be and cross training within each of our spaces. We all have expertise in what we do. Why are we sharing that? Why are we leveraging that? I mean, I can just see basic lunch and learns where we can all learn from each other as a group. And I think another elephant in the room, and I want to talk about it, because we always go there on this podcast.
• 22:45
  Becky Endicott: But there are a lot, there's a lot of hierarchy and development shops, you know, no, just because you're a frontline fundraiser, and you're bringing in the bulk doesn't put your advantage over what someone else is bringing to the team. You know, it's kind of out of whack.
• 23:00
  Becky Endicott: And I do think the way to break that down culturally is to illuminate all of the gifts that we're bringing to the table that we can help to inform the donor because again, we're all on the same team. So love this conversation and think what you're saying here is just so great.
• 23:17
  Jonathan McCoy: Hey, friends, this episode is presented by virtuous and they just happened to be one of our favorite companies. Let me tell you why.
• 23:22
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• 23:38
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• 24:06
  Mark Lanum: Well, thanks. I'm glad I'm glad somebody resonates with that. Because you're right there is that elephant in the room? And, you know, I do think one of the there's obviously a number of contributors to that.
• 24:15
  Mark Lanum: But you know, one of the ones that I kind of bristle at the most is the notion of best practice. because it implies there's one way to do something.
• 24:25
  Mark Lanum: And if we're not doing that, then we're not best. And, you know, frankly, I think what's best is what accomplishes your goals. And that might look one way at one place, it might look another somewhere else. I think there's good practices. I think there's clever practices, and there's neat ideas. But what is the best, the best are the ones that help us accomplish our goals. And most often, this is the this is kind of an indictment, I guess. I think too often, we don't actually know what our goal is. And, frankly, the goal, this is something I like to tell fundraisers, you know, the donor in their mind, you know, when they're when they're signing this thing, that the thing that they're excited about and most interested in, is not you hitting your performance metrics. That's great. But but don't fool yourself into thinking that that is what's meaningful to them. what's meaningful to them, is the thought of that student. You know, benefiting from it. You know, it makes me think there was a video I shared in several presentations several years ago of a young woman who was a med student at Michigan, and in the video, she just cries the whole time trying to say How much she appreciates this thing. And I'm like, the thing I loved about it was that one, they weren't afraid to show the emotion, which I think that sometimes we try to be so staid and, and professional and polished and people want real in 2021. And this was just raw, and I liked it now it did also have a bit of a feeling of maybe being manipulative, but I think she was genuine. And, you know, the idea for me was, that is what a donor is looking for. And not, oh, good kind of gift. So I keep my job for another year, because my performance report will look will look good. That's just, that's not what inspires the donor. It's the thought of what the impact is going to be.
• 26:12
  Jonathan McCoy: Well, I think even JD BB who founded Thank you, we had him on the podcast recently, such a great guy. I mean, what drew him into wanting to serve in this space was He's like, I made this gift to university. I didn't want to get the tchotchke gift. I wanted to just hear from the student like, why is that such a disconnect?
• 26:27
  Jonathan McCoy: But I get it, you know, so I think this is great.
• 26:32
  Becky Endicott: Yeah, I'm really curious, you know, you're at an Ivy League University, you've been at really incredible, large scale universities. What are you most proud of in your donor relations? space? What program?
• 26:43
  Becky Endicott: What initiative? And it doesn't have to be a big one. I mean, what's something that you've seen be incredibly effective? in your space? I know you have this strength of resources. But I have to think that even some of the greatest donor relations tactics I've seen are some really affordable one. So I'm just curious what you would say to that?
• 27:05
  Mark Lanum: Why I find that hard to answer, to be honest, because what I think you want me to say is some thing we did for a donor that inspired them. And there's certainly been those things, I wouldn't say that those were the things I was most proud of, not because I'm not proud of them.
• 27:18
  Mark Lanum: They're just not the ones I'm most proud of, you know, when I but But to your point about, hey, it doesn't have to be expensive. I think that's really important. What it has to be is it has to reflect your knowledge of the donor, or as I keep saying to our team, as I show him that you know them, because that's what they want to know.
• 27:40
  Mark Lanum: That's what they that's what will matter if you can show them that you have some insight into what they what matters to them, right. I mean, this is the thing. People want to know that they matter. And frankly, I think, whether they realize it or not, whether any of us realize it or not, when you're making a gift, you're doing it Yes, out of the generosity and goodness of your heart. But there's also a hope underneath that of that this will somehow validate my existence, that the good came into the world because I was here. And if we don't return that to donors, I think we're missing out the base, the most basic, fundamental tenet of philanthropy is, you want to know that you you matter and that you make a difference in the world. So the more you can do that in a way that reflects your knowledge of them. I think that's the better I give you one story I heard about I wasn't a part of In fact, it wasn't at a place that I worked at. But I heard about this one large donor to a zoo, who the they made a big gift. And so the zoo invited them to come bring their family into the zoo. And he said to me, because we asked him what's the most meaningful stewardship thing you've ever had? This was his stories. Like, we went there, and the giraffe licked my granddaughter, and she thought it was hilarious. That sight meant so much to me, that I was able to do this. And that, you know, this experience came about as a result. I'm like that you can't choreograph that. No, Hey, come on, bring your grandkids, we'll have the draft, like your kid can't script those things.
• 29:06
  Mark Lanum: That's is that expensive? No. I mean, if you're a zoo, I guess it's not but you know, I think some of the best things you do are not fancy tchotchkes.
• 29:18
  Mark Lanum: They're not big galahs they're not, you know, these these things that over the over time, I think we've kind of assumed are what people want, when what they really want is they want to know the matter. Yeah. And that can come about in a variety of different ways. So
• 29:34
  Becky Endicott: I remember a donor one time calling the giveaway, the desk catcher, you know, the thing that they would put in their office to catch dust and and I'll tell you like one of my simple five second hacks that I would use as a major gift officer when I was meeting someone for the first time, whether it was coming into their office or their home, or wherever we were meeting is, as I was walking in for the first time, I always did like a three second scan around the room. And immediately in three seconds, I learned so much about what was important to that individual. If they had a ton of plaques on their walls, if they had a ton of pictures of them meeting, you know, President or elected official or celebrity I'm like, Okay, this person is going to need a lot of love on naming opportunities, putting their name on things, a lot of press, you know, a press attention or press releases on their gifts.
• 30:29
  Becky Endicott: If I walk in and I see a ton of pictures of your family Have your fly fishing rod or something like that I can immediately understand that we're gonna have to have a more intimate personal conversation.
• 30:41
  Becky Endicott: And I honestly I credit our donor relations team with giving me that hack of how you can figure out intrinsically what's important to someone in three seconds. So, yes, we need our donor relations, you can show them, you know them, oh, my God, okay, show them, you know.
• 30:58
  Jonathan McCoy: So Mark, we're talking a lot about just how do we bring these two teams together? How do you coach leaders in the space? Like, what do you tell them to try to get in this mindset?
• 31:09
  Mark Lanum: Well, one of the things that I like to ask leaders, and this is this kind of harkens back to my youth pastor days as well. So you'll, this hopefully will make sense.
• 31:18
  Mark Lanum: I like to ask them, Hey, tell us about your very first job you had. Probably when you were, you know, in high school, or even younger, maybe but the first they can define job however they want. And, and so what was your first job? And what did you learn from that, that still with you today? And it's a fascinating conversation. Number one, you just hear hilarious stories about these people who are top levels of your organization who worked in a florist shop or or went house to house selling popsicles out of their out of their wagon or whatever, to hear them then reflect on what's the what they learned from that. That's still around. You know, for me, I joked earlier that I learned about, you know, speaking from standing in front of sweaty teenagers. Before that, I think some of this is also just about knowing yourself. So before that, my very first job was, as I call it, annoying people at dinnertime, which was phone market research to ask questions. Despite, despite the massive amount of profanity that I learned from that job, I also learned just how to, you know, start conversations with people.
• 32:22
  Mark Lanum: After that I was a I was a nocturnal sanitation engineer, as I like to call it. And I learned from that job that I needed to work with people. That was help, because I was by myself, and I didn't like toilets. Now, there are some people who are introverts, and they would love it. But for me, I just needed to know myself. So I found it by walking around cleaning out ashtrays and toilets. After that was when I worked at a video store. And the thing I learned from working at the video store, in spite of what, you know, 1000 movies that are clogging my brain is I need to like who I work with. Because I loved working with those people. It was just so much fun.
• 33:02
  Mark Lanum: It was so great. And that that the team you work with matters so much, you know, I joked I could dig ditches with them.
• 33:09
  Mark Lanum: Now, I couldn't actually probably dig ditches. But if I had to, I would have wanted to do with that. You know, so I think that's a really interesting thing to ask people who are in leadership leadership or aspiring to be leaders is know yourself. So take us back through your history, and then understand how that's affecting you today. It can be a negative thing. But there's a lot of ways there's actually a lot of positives that come out of those kinds of things. And I think it's just really helpful to allow people to bring those things to bring those things forward, because it's going to affect how they are as a leader how they are as a as a member of the team for sure.
• 33:47
  Becky Endicott: When little Becky Kraus was seven years old, she wrote a neighborhood newsletter because when did not exist, and she loved to write.
• 33:52
  Becky Endicott: And I wrote it with a dry erase marker on this like dry erase like pho newspaper template. And three people bought my newspaper for $1, my mom, my grandma and my teacher, and all of a sudden, I felt like there are people who want to read what I want to write. And that is why that is what I take away from my first job that it's important to invest in dreamers because look at me writing now. It's like the joy of my life and the way that I process. So excellent hack.
• 34:28
  Becky Endicott: And that is an excellent first question. If you're having a team meeting and trying to get everybody talking, everyone loves talking about their first job.
• 34:37
  Mark Lanum: Oh, yeah,
• 34:37
  Jonathan McCoy: you'll hear some great stories. Okay, Mark, you have given a lot of great hacks and youth pastor style, I like to get my action points that I can write in my journal and process. But you know, we ask all of our guests, what's your one good thing? And that's something that could be applicable today. What's something that's been a secret to your success?
• 34:56
  Mark Lanum: So the secret to my success has always been the people that I work with. And I know that sounds like it's one of those. Those, you're supposed to say that kind of, Oh, wait, go mark, you know, check the box. He gave kudos to your team.
• 35:10
  Mark Lanum: I am not a product of my own success. Let's be clear. You know, actually, if I can pause for a serious moment, you know, I'm a white male, I stand on a whole lot of privilege that I did nothing to deserve. So I mean, with that in mind, I'm also aware of the amazing work that people who have been on my teams have done oftentimes, without me asking Oftentimes, despite what I said, and they were they were right, and I was wrong. And so, you know, I think the one good thing from my, my perspective, and again, it's the echoes of being youth pastors, you just have to care about those you work with. And that's not a hack, that's not any sort of like a special thing. Like, you know, write everybody a thank you note, once a week, I mean, it's No, it's not that it's, they need to know that you know them and that you care about them. And maybe if nothing else, it's just a reminder, maybe for this week, if you've got people around you or on your team, whatever you think of that would, you know, let them know that you care about them, and you have interest in them. And that you value them, maybe I think that will probably be it, it's just, there's no, this is a game, it's a team sport, there's no substitute for the relationship. Actually, I would say this way, if we can't get our internal relationships, right, we are going to have problems with our external relationships. So I just think that the team, the team thing, for me, that's the secret of my success. That's the, the one good thing is just go love on your team and take care of them.
• 36:39
  Mark Lanum: Especially during a pandemic, because it's been so hard. So,
• 36:46
  Becky Endicott: okay, I want to give a little observation, I've learned about Mark tours, I do want to give them a virtual hug, because that was one of the kindest, most selfless one good things we've ever heard. But if we're talking about like empathy mindsets, which we do talk about a lot, one of the greatest places you can start is what I've seen in mark in the last 30 minutes, you know, which is you have to see all people. And there is nothing that makes my heart swell more than when someone like a white male stands up and says, I recognize my privilege, but I want to see all people. And it's such a gift to the world when you can be that selfless. And so if you're listening right now, and you're thinking about how can I just have a little impact on my part of the world, you may not even work in a nonprofit shop, you could just be in whatever your community is, look and see everyone everyone wants to be seen. They want to be met in the space where they are. And just simply caring about them is such a gift that you can give to them. And of course, a youth pastor would know because a youth pastor, I really I really do believe this. If you think about a youth pastor, or someone who's worked with you, you know, as an adult, when you were a kid, the one who saw everybody, because you're trying to pull the group end to be completely homogenous. They always find the least the last the last. And if we can apply some of those principles here. Just think about how dynamic and cohesive our teams could be.
• 38:18
  Mark Lanum: Can I add one thing here that that always makes me feel a little uncomfortable? And by the way, I don't want to dismiss what you just said. So thank you for that. But on the other hand, I also feel a little bit like, you know, if I feel good about if I take pride in being humble, that seems kind of counterintuitive. And and I just I'm always mindful of that is is how do you I think that's something that we want to be be thoughtful about, too is how do you accept these things without it being about you? And so I guess that's how I want to receive that is Thank you. But ultimately, it's not about me, it's about the idea here and what it means for for everyone else. So
• 38:59
  Becky Endicott: I can see why mark is so great at his job, you are perfectly suited for this.
• 39:02
  Becky Endicott: And that was the best humble answer of all time.
• 39:05
  Jonathan McCoy: And to be coaching other people how to do it really well.
• 39:08
  Unknown: Yeah. So Oh, go ahead.
• 39:10
  Unknown: So we're gonna do this.
• 39:12
  Unknown: Go ahead, john.
• 39:14
  Jonathan McCoy: So Mark, how can people connect with you and just the good work that you're doing?
• 39:16
  Jonathan McCoy: What's the best way to connect with you online? or reach out?
• 39:20
  Mark Lanum: Well, it probably be LinkedIn, I'm gonna say probably it would be LinkedIn, because I'm always telling people. Yes, sorry. I'm so bad at the LinkedIn. And by the way, I always say that because it bugs me children.
• 39:30
  Becky Endicott: Like the Walmart.
• 39:32
  Mark Lanum: Yeah, I find this on the interwebs. Anyway, um, it'll probably be through through LinkedIn. And you can just find me out there just mark Lanham.
• 39:40
  Mark Lanum: But you know, actually, one thing I want to say this would probably be the best, the one good thing that one suggestion today is, look, don't connect with me, not because I don't care, I don't want to hear, but connect with someone who's going to be able to be with you more than I will be able to be with you. You know, one of the things in the pandemic that's been so meaningful to me is I have a small group of friends and donor relations, and we get we chat, like all the time. And that matters so much in terms of sustaining yourself through the just the stuff that happens. So you know, instead of connecting with me, I mean, that's fine.
• 40:16
  Mark Lanum: People want to do that, who's the person who works in your organization, or at the nearby one or within your state that you could just reach out to and say, Hey, how's it going over there? And what are you learning as some of these same questions that you asked me? I think that would be a better use of people's time than reaching out to me. I mean, who needs it?
• 40:34
  Mark Lanum: Another bald guy in their LinkedIn.
• 40:37
  Unknown: I do.
• 40:39
  Becky Endicott: You're hilarious mark and you have such great insight. And I and I actually think that you have delivered the answer of what you've said early on was the problem with being so virtual when when if the downside is it's difficult to strengthen team than the way that we combat that is by bringing the cohesion and the thought leaders together of everyone on every team. And that is going to build and foster that internal community. And it's going to do what you said it will be the greatest, you know, impetus for us being successful, which is if we're gonna get our internal relationships right than the external ones will follow.
• 41:16
  Becky Endicott: Excellent. Okay,
• 41:17
  Jonathan McCoy: this has been an awesome conversation and I have to plug the community because that's what we built this for, too is that if you feel like you're on an island and you don't have you know, friends in this space, come over to the we're for good community because you will find friends that are you know, laboring alongside you trying to bring more light into the world through their nonprofit mission. That's it, we're for good community calm. I love that I just added that add sorry, Mark.
• 41:39
  Becky Endicott: We just don't want anyone to feel alone and I just community is everything.
• 41:42
  Becky Endicott: And if you're feeling lost, if you're feeling like you cannot find your people in your own organization, if you need some creativity or you just need like an emotional boost. Get in there, you know, I will go live on you. So tell me if you're having a bad day, we will find a way to make it better.
• 42:00
  Jonathan McCoy: This has been awesome, though. Mark, thank you for being here.
• 42:03
  Unknown: appreciate what you're doing. Absolutely.
• 42:04
  Mark Lanum: Thanks for having me.
• 42:05
  Becky Endicott: Absolutely.
• 42:05
  Becky Endicott: We're rooting for you. Thanks for listening to today's conversation. We hope you were inspired my marks challenge to forge stronger donor relation partnerships among our development teams. You know, we're here for it. You probably hear it in our voices, but we love connecting you with the most innovative people to help you do more for your mission.
• 42:22
  Becky Endicott: That's why we'd love for you to join our good community. It's free and it's our own social network and a place to meet new friends find inspiration and help you when you feel stuck.
• 42:30
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• 42:41
  Becky Endicott: Our production here was a donor relations queen in her last job, Julie Confer Hello. Our theme song is sunray by Remy Boris boom