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Why the Reformation Happened: Germany Before Luther (Gregg Quiggle) · Thinking Christian: Bible, Theology, and Culture

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, Welcome to Thanking Christian. I'm doctor James Spencer,
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: and I'm glad you're here. In this special series, we're
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  Speaker 1: stepping back into one of the most pivotal times in
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  Speaker 1: Christian history, the German Reformation. This was a time when
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  Speaker 1: the Gospel was being rediscovered, the Church was being challenged,
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  Speaker 1: and the course of Western civilization was being reshaped with
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  Speaker 1: ripples that still reach into our lives today. And to
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  Speaker 1: guide us through this journey, I'm joined by a true expert,
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  Speaker 1: someone who doesn't just know the Reformation from books, but
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  Speaker 1: from the cobblestone streets and cathedral halls where it actually happened,
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  Speaker 1: Doctor Greg Quiggle. Greg is a Reformation historian and the
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  Speaker 1: owner and operator of Kotelis Travel, a company that runs
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: what they call tours for ten, intimate travel experiences designed
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: for people who want something deeper than a typical tour.
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: They offer a three to one guest to guide ratio,
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  Speaker 1: and these trips give you consistent access to guides who've
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  Speaker 1: been on location multiple times, who know not only the history,
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: but also where to find the best able strudal and
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: other German delicacies along the way. You can learn more
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  Speaker 1: about Greg and Kotellus at kotellistravelservice dot com. And if
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  Speaker 1: this series piques your interest, Greg actually has a German
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  Speaker 1: Reformation trip coming up this May, and last I heard,
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  Speaker 1: there are still a few seats available. In this series,
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  Speaker 1: Greg is going to help us explore the people, places,
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  Speaker 1: and theological stakes of the Reformation as well as helping
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  Speaker 1: us understand why it still matters for Christians today. So
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  Speaker 1: let's get started. Greg, Welcome to the podcast man.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you, it's great to be here.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, so today we're going to be kind of talking
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  Speaker 1: a little bit pre Reformation context and what context is
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  Speaker 1: it that the Reformation emerges from. What's the world like
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  Speaker 1: at this point in Germany? So maybe we'll start there,
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  Speaker 1: what's going on in society in Germany. Paint us a
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  Speaker 1: picture of the utopian moment of Germany at this time
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  Speaker 1: that the horrible reformers eventually destroy and break apart. Now
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  Speaker 1: and that's not really I kind of know what's coming.
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  Speaker 1: So yeah, paint the picture.
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  Speaker 2: Let me back it up five hundred years just to
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  Speaker 2: give a bit of context here. So most people in
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  Speaker 2: the West tend to think about Christianity as either Protestant
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  Speaker 2: or Roman Catholic, but if we go back in the
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  Speaker 2: early Church, you're aware there's one church, and frankly, there's
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  Speaker 2: one church throughout the world until ten fifty four, and
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  Speaker 2: in ten fifty four the church divides into two, the
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  Speaker 2: Western or Latin or Catholic Church and the Eastern or
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  Speaker 2: Greek or Orthodox Church. So Russia and these other places
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  Speaker 2: have been in the news more recently, and you see
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  Speaker 2: religion over there that's Orthodox Christianity, that is not Roman Catholicism.
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  Speaker 2: That's an entirely different deal for another time and another lesson.
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  Speaker 2: But what you need to understand is what we're talking
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  Speaker 2: about is happening in the Western Church. So this is
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  Speaker 2: a split, a second split in the Western or Catholic
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  Speaker 2: Church that takes place in the fifteenth and sixteenth century.
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  Speaker 2: And so one of the first things I need people
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  Speaker 2: to understand is we tend to hear the word Reformation SUN,
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  Speaker 2: but it's actually reformationuns. There are many of them. So
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  Speaker 2: we're focusing in this set of podcasts on what happened
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  Speaker 2: in Germany. So that's going to be luther and Lutheranism,
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  Speaker 2: and that's going to eventually spread into modern day Scandinavia,
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  Speaker 2: so Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Norway. Those are still predominantly Lutheran places,
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  Speaker 2: but there was also separate movements in Switzerland. For example,
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  Speaker 2: in the city of Zurich. Among German speaking Swiss, there's
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  Speaker 2: a guy named Zwingli who has a movement going. Most
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  Speaker 2: people have heard of John Calvin. That's French speaking people.
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  Speaker 2: He's in the French part of Switzerland. You've heard of
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  Speaker 2: the Reformed churches. The Reformed Churches trace the roots to
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  Speaker 2: both Swingley and Calvin. Then you have a separate Reformation
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  Speaker 2: in England. You mentioned at the beginning about you know,
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  Speaker 2: I do a trip to England and that's the story
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  Speaker 2: of Henry the Eighth and his six wives and divorces,
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  Speaker 2: and that produces what we did. They called the Church
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  Speaker 2: of England, the Anglican or Episcopal Church. That's totally separate
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  Speaker 2: from what we're going to talk about in this podcast.
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  Speaker 2: Then you get a group called the Radicals, and these
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  Speaker 2: produce Mennonites, Amish, some Brethren. Most of them start in
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  Speaker 2: Switzerland or around the German border. And again we're not
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  Speaker 2: touching on those people today in this set of broadcasts.
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  Speaker 2: So we're really talking about something that's happening in what
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  Speaker 2: was called the Holy Roman Empire, which is modern day Germany.
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  Speaker 2: And why does this happen? Why is the Western Church
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  Speaker 2: suddenly reforming. Well, there's a couple reasons. Number one is
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  Speaker 2: it's been around now for fifteen hundred years and it's
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  Speaker 2: become bureaucratic and bloated, and you know how these things go.
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  Speaker 2: Church laws become a mess. There's a high degree of corruption.
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  Speaker 2: Most of us know the stories about bad popes or
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  Speaker 2: you know, illegitimate children, or buying and selling church offices
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  Speaker 2: called simony. There's this going on. We'll learn more about
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  Speaker 2: that and other future podcasts. A lot of ministers aren't
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  Speaker 2: even in it's called absenteeism. In fact, at one point
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  Speaker 2: it was guest and only one one in fourteen parishes
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  Speaker 2: had their priests and residence in Germany, so they weren't
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  Speaker 2: even there. They were collecting a salary and weren't there.
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  Speaker 2: So there's all kinds of stuff going on. But underneath it,
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  Speaker 2: and we'll spend a whole podcast on this, but underneath this,
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  Speaker 2: there's this real question of theology. Because those who are
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  Speaker 2: going to become what we call Protestants are going to
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  Speaker 2: say all of this other stuff, all this bad stuff
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  Speaker 2: I've talked about, is the product of bad doctrine? The
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  Speaker 2: church lost its way theologically, And those who are going
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  Speaker 2: to remain or become what we call Roman Catholic are
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  Speaker 2: going to say, no, the doctrine is pretty much fine.
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  Speaker 2: We just got corrupt. So it's not fair to say
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  Speaker 2: that Protestantism started because of corruption in the church, because
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  Speaker 2: the Roman Church is going to address the corruption too.
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  Speaker 2: Everybody agrees the church had become corrupt. The question is
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  Speaker 2: is the corruption the problem itself or a symptom of
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  Speaker 2: a deeper theological problem. And like I said, in a
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  Speaker 2: future podcast, we'll talk about the basic theological problems. But
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  Speaker 2: in addition to that, I want to frame out what
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  Speaker 2: the world was like. So first off, we talk about cities. Well,
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  Speaker 2: what we call the city and what they call the
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  Speaker 2: city were quite different. So, for example, the population in Geneva,
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  Speaker 2: I mentioned Geneva, it's about twenty five thousand people. That's
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  Speaker 2: a city. London is sixty thousand. I mean that Florence
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  Speaker 2: is fifty thousand. Naples is forty thousand something a lot,
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  Speaker 2: so we're talking about numbers one hundred thousand for Naples.
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  Speaker 2: Paris is a big dog. It's about two hundred thousand.
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  Speaker 2: You know, these are the size of just big suburbs now,
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  Speaker 2: and so most of Europe was rural and peasant, and
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  Speaker 2: they lived hand to mouth, so death was extraordinarily present
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  Speaker 2: in day to day life. So I've just got some
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  Speaker 2: statistics here to help you understand this. In Central Europe,
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  Speaker 2: life expectancy was between thirty and forty years. That's average. Charge.
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  Speaker 2: So let's talk about infinite child mortality rates. Somewhere around
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  Speaker 2: thirty percent of newborns died before their first year, first birthday,
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  Speaker 2: About forty five percent died before they reached adulthood. So
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  Speaker 2: look at it this way. One out of every two
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  Speaker 2: children never made it to adulthood roughly. Yeah, and you know,
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  Speaker 2: just try to imagine if those of us that have
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  Speaker 2: had children half of them never made it to adulthood.
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  Speaker 2: The emotional toll would just be stunning. Now, let's add
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  Speaker 2: on to that things like the Black Death. So you've
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  Speaker 2: heard of the plague, the Black Death. Now, most of
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  Speaker 2: this predates Reformation, but it goes through during the reference
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  Speaker 2: nation two. So the worst years for this between let's
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  Speaker 2: say thirteen fifty and fourteen twenty in Germany, roughly forty
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  Speaker 2: four zero percent of the population died. Provence in France
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  Speaker 2: fifty percent five zero Tuscany in Italy seventy seven zero
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  Speaker 2: percent died when Zwingli was in Zurich at one point
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  Speaker 2: the plague went through. Twenty five percent died when he
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  Speaker 2: was pastor imagine pasting. You know we talk about COVID.
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  Speaker 2: Imagine twenty five percent going through. It's stunning. And so
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  Speaker 2: on top of this, you've got famine et cetera, et cetera,
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  Speaker 2: et cetera.
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  Speaker 1: So right, you're not living the easy life if you survive.
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  Speaker 1: This is a difficult, hard life, marked by death constantly.
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  Speaker 2: And so what I've tried to get people to understand
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  Speaker 2: is the cumulative effect on the medieval mind is something
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  Speaker 2: we just cannot grasp. But what it does do is
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  Speaker 2: it intensifies their concern about death. They are obsessed with death.
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  Speaker 2: In fact, the cathedral in barn has a stained glass window.
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  Speaker 2: If you can imagine this, and it has in the window,
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  Speaker 2: I believe it's fifty fifty different portrayals of how you
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  Speaker 2: can die. Can you imagine going to church, He'll and
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  Speaker 2: here's this big window in your church. You could die
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  Speaker 2: this way, you could die this way. You could die
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  Speaker 2: this way, you could die this way. So two things.
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  Speaker 2: Number One, they are more committed to the life to
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  Speaker 2: come than this life. What's going to happen when I die?
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  Speaker 2: What's going to happen when I die? What's going to
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  Speaker 2: happen when I die? Number two, God is perpetually angry.
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  Speaker 2: There is overwhelming evidence that God is constantly angry. And
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  Speaker 2: the evidence is clear. Half my kids are dead, and
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  Speaker 2: the disease is coming through town. And when it comes
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  Speaker 2: through town, who causes disease? They know the stories from
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  Speaker 2: the Old Testament. Why do people die? They die because
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  Speaker 2: they're singing against God. So God must be angry. And
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  Speaker 2: this is all so in light of that, I've described
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  Speaker 2: the tradition of the church, who is supposed to be
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  Speaker 2: able to provide comfort and answers in this kind of trauma.
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  Speaker 2: The church who is failing the church? And so this
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  Speaker 2: is why you get so much emphasis in extreme religious behaviors, pilgrimages,
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  Speaker 2: people beating themselves, starving themselves, anything they can do to
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  Speaker 2: manipulate God, because remember the priests, isn't there Yeah, and
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  Speaker 2: so h.
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  Speaker 1: He is there is any prescribing some of these things anyway,
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  Speaker 1: I mean.
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  Speaker 2: But what these things are on the books. But the
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  Speaker 2: people that are driving these things are the peasants because
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  Speaker 2: they're desperate. Right, So if I don't if I go
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  Speaker 2: see the Relic, I get time off purgatory. If I
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  Speaker 2: go in a pilgrimage, I get time off purgatory. I
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  Speaker 2: don't need a priest to do that. So if I
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  Speaker 2: haven't gotten the masks, I can at least go on
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  Speaker 2: a I can go to the Relic. I can buy
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  Speaker 2: an indulgence. We'll talk more about that later. You can
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  Speaker 2: see why this is all. Purgatory is going to become
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  Speaker 2: really important because I've got to figure out I've got
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  Speaker 2: to do something to a keep God from killing me
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  Speaker 2: because he's mad, and B I've got to do something
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  Speaker 2: to make sure I spend eternity in heaven instead of hell.
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  Speaker 2: You walk into church and you got the last Judgment
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  Speaker 2: carved over the door and lie these places. So you
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  Speaker 2: know this is not like we go to church and
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  Speaker 2: there's somebody smiling with a big smile at face. Button
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  Speaker 2: you know, Jesus loves you, and so do we know this?
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  Speaker 2: This is God is angry at you. He's damning you
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  Speaker 2: to hell. And if you don't straighten up and fly,
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  Speaker 2: you know, so you have to take your brain and
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  Speaker 2: you have to do a one eighty with it, because
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  Speaker 2: the way we see life and the way they see life,
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  Speaker 2: it's just radically different. And as in aside, one of
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  Speaker 2: the despicable byproducts of this is anti Semitism. So lots
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  Speaker 2: of times when the play comes through, if God isn't
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  Speaker 2: responsible for it, then guess who is? The Jews? So
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  Speaker 2: you get slaughter of Jews? Are they poisoned the well?
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  Speaker 2: And then Jews will be in Germany and Central Europe
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  Speaker 2: there's horrible. Well you know what's wrong with these people?
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  Speaker 2: Why didn't they read the Bible? Well, that's a good question.
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  Speaker 2: Why didn't they read the Bible? Literacy rate in Germany
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  Speaker 2: in fifteen hundred only twenty percent of the population could read,
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  Speaker 2: could not read.
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  Speaker 1: When even at that point would there have been a
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  Speaker 1: Bible they could read.
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  Speaker 2: That's the second point. The printing press has been around
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  Speaker 2: by that point, so there would have been some around,
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  Speaker 2: and there were a few early German translations. Were they
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  Speaker 2: very good? No? Were they very prominent? No? So that's
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  Speaker 2: the other thing. Well, why didn't these people just read
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  Speaker 2: the Bible? Well, the Catholic Church was keeping them from it. Well,
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  Speaker 2: you don't have to worry about keeping it from them
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  Speaker 2: if they can't read it. Yeah, so there is some
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  Speaker 2: sense of yes, they didn't want lay people grabbing the
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  Speaker 2: Bible and deciding for themselves what it meant. And we'll
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  Speaker 2: talk more about that than later broadcasts or podcast but
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  Speaker 2: but the fact of the matter is the vast majority,
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  Speaker 2: eighty percent of the population couldn't read.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, so it didn't matter whether they had or.
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  Speaker 2: Not, didn't matter whether they had it or not. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: And the reality is, until you up the literatary rates,
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  Speaker 1: there's you're kind of stuck. You're you're left with your
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  Speaker 1: own imagination in this context and working on whatever limited
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  Speaker 1: understanding you may have had. You can't really check yourself
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  Speaker 1: based you know, like we would go back to God's
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  Speaker 1: word and look and say, oh, I'm probably off about that,
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  Speaker 1: you know, what have you? They don't even have that recourse, right.
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  Speaker 2: They have stained glass windows, so they know the stories,
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  Speaker 2: They know the stories of the Bible, and you know
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  Speaker 2: those stories of the saints. Yeah, some extent, the lasses
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  Speaker 2: are the masses in Latin. They can't understand that the
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  Speaker 2: sermons are horrible, So these are sheep without a shepherd,
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  Speaker 2: and they're desperate.
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  Speaker 1: Do the this. Yeah, it's probably a too blunt a question,
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  Speaker 1: so I'll let you nuance it. But you know, looking
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  Speaker 1: forward to what we're going to talk about with Luther,
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  Speaker 1: obviously I see him identifying a theological problem within the church.
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  Speaker 1: But for most of the peasants, they're they're dissatisfaction with this.
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  Speaker 1: Probably isn't theological. It's probably more pragmatic. In other words,
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  Speaker 1: none of this is working, and the Church just seems
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  Speaker 1: to take more from me and give me less back.
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  Speaker 2: Exactly.
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  Speaker 1: Is that okay?
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  Speaker 2: Exactly? And you know, one of the other things is
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: clergy were not subject to civil law, so they can
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  Speaker 2: get away with murder. Literally. I mean, it's like it's
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  Speaker 2: a mess. Yeah. Roman Catholics and Protestants are going to
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  Speaker 2: say it's a mess, because frankly, there is such a
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  Speaker 2: thing as a Roman Catholic reformation. A Catholic reformation, they
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  Speaker 2: do clean house, they do get rid of the corruption.
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  Speaker 2: They understand. Nobody is arguing that the church was in
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  Speaker 2: good shape in the fourteenth, fifteenth and sixteenth century was
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  Speaker 2: a mess. The question is how much of this was
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  Speaker 2: bad theology.
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  Speaker 1: And that's where you have guys who are trained. Luther
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  Speaker 1: was a trained person. He understood the doctrinal elements. He
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  Speaker 1: could read the you know, and study these various things.
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  Speaker 1: He understood canon law and all that kind of good stuff.
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  Speaker 1: And so what he's identifying is these theological or doctrinal
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  Speaker 1: kernels within the Catholic Church that are creating the context
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  Speaker 1: for corruption. And if these aren't changed, he has very
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  Speaker 1: little hope that the Church can actually reform.
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  Speaker 2: Right, And his question is the question of every peasant
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  Speaker 2: in Germany, how can I stand before a holy God?
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  Speaker 2: And he comes to a conclusion that number one, he
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  Speaker 2: can stand before a holy God on the basis of
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  Speaker 2: faith alone, and number two, he can have a degree
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  Speaker 2: of certainty about what happens to him before he dies.
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  Speaker 2: And both of those are going to be revolutionary ideas.
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  Speaker 2: And those are things, I mean, imagine living your life
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  Speaker 2: knowing that you can die at any moment, which is
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  Speaker 2: true of all of us. We just don't think about it, right,
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  Speaker 2: And this overwhelming sense that God is perpetually angry at me,
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  Speaker 2: and no way to have any degree of certainty about
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  Speaker 2: where I stand with God, just I don't really know,
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  Speaker 2: you know, I do what the priest kind of says.
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  Speaker 2: And I hope this kind of works. And I'm you know,
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  Speaker 2: I bought an indulgence and I'm going to the relic
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  Speaker 2: and maybe I'll go on a pilgrimage. My crops are okay,
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  Speaker 2: And and this guy comes along and says, no, all
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  Speaker 2: you have to do is believe that Jesus died for
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  Speaker 2: your sins on the cross. When you believe that Jesus died,
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  Speaker 2: you're forgiven and you can know that you're okay with God.
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  Speaker 2: Just keep looking to Jesus, Just keep focused on Jesus.
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  Speaker 2: Just keep believing that Jesus on the Cross is there
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  Speaker 2: for you. Keep going to him, keep repenting of your sins,
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  Speaker 2: keep throwing yourself at his mercy. Is long as you
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  Speaker 2: are believing in Him, you're okay. And you can know, well,
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  Speaker 2: this is just absolutely utterly stunning. Yeah, and it's gonna
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  Speaker 2: and it's gonna. You know, the craft side to this
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  Speaker 2: is it's gonna undercut a lot of money making opportunities here,
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  Speaker 2: do you So?
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  Speaker 1: One of the things I've always kind of wondered about
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  Speaker 1: as you moved from the Catholic side to the Protestant side,
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  Speaker 1: you tend to lose purgatory. Yes, that that happened with Luther.
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  Speaker 2: Among others.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, so I mean, but I mean he I guess
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  Speaker 1: my question is, and did Luth? Was that Luther's innovation
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  Speaker 1: but Luthor didn't carry that with him at all, Like
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  Speaker 1: that was just dawn. Purgatory is a doctrine? Was kind
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  Speaker 1: of like, nope, we're done well.
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  Speaker 2: Luther's theology evolves, all, I don't want to tell you you.
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  Speaker 1: Know what was necessarily, but he's.
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  Speaker 2: He is working through these things, but it is logically
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  Speaker 2: no longer necessary if you believe in justification by faith alone.
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  Speaker 2: That is what Luther is saying is when you put
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  Speaker 2: your faith in what Jesus did on the cross, there
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  Speaker 2: is this magnificent exchange, and the exchange is your sin
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: goes to Jesus and Jesus' righteousness becomes yours. Theologians call
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: this imputed righteousness. I like Luther's term much better. He
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: calls it alien righteousness. That is, it's in you but
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: not yours, so that you are right before God, not
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: because of who you are, but because of who Jesus is,
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: and by faith you are united with Jesus, so that
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: when God, the Father looks at you, he sees Jesus righteousness,
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: and he says acceptable. There is therefore now no condemnation
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: to those who are in Christ Jesus, and you are
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: in Christ Jesus by faith alone.
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think it's just interesting to think
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: through all the things that hinged on purgatory, right, And
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: we'll talk about a lot of them throughout the rest
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: of the series, but just to kind of intro it,
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: it's like, the indulgences hang on purgatory.
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: Yep.
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: Many of the ascetic practices like these beatings and that
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: kind of stuff, they hinge on purgatory, like I want
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: to get time off for good behavior.
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: So it's just fascinating to think about the revolution and
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: thought that people would have had to go through to
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: move from this context that you've described really well, like this,
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: it's just death and just sort of horrible living conditions.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: You're looking to the church for answers. The church has
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: no real answers. You're doing these pilgrimages, you're spending more money,
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: you're buying, you know, you're doing all this other stuff.
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: And then Luther comes along and says, yeah, really, you
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: don't have to do any of that stuff anymore. Here's
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: what it looks like. I mean that, you know, as
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: a release valve to all that pressure was probably revolutionary.
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: But also working that through the entire aspect of theology
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: had to have been a job. Oh yeah, yeah, it
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: just from a practical perspective. You know, why would we
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: do any of the sacraments anymore if purgatory isn't real,
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: Like you have to come up with a whole different
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: sort of system for that. And I'm sure he had
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: resources are drawn, I know, the huss Yeah sort of
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: predated Luther's I mean, it wasn't like this the only
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: time that's ever come up. And then obviously you have
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: materials prior to some of this near term context that
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: you go back and draw on.
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: But uh, he's going to go back to August and
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: he's gonna hut. You don't get much justification by faith
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: from hust but you do get things like communion in
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: both kinds, that is, both the cup and the bread,
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: to the play people, variety of sorts of things. But yeah,
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: the stunning thing that Luther is, the question that Luther
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: is answering is you can know now what happens to
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: me when I die? Well, you have hope. No, no,
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: you have certainty. What's a certainty from the shed blood
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: of Christ. Christ died for my sins, according to the Scripture,
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: and I believe that He died for me. And so
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: the sacraments no longer are the means by which God
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: turns me into a righteous person. The sacraments testify to
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: the truth of the Bible, help me understand the Bible
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: and become objects of faith in that sense. So when
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: I receive the communion, I receive the promise of Jesus
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: in the form of bread and wine. So Jesus says
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: to me in bread what he says to me in
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: the book, this is my body broken for you. And
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: then the question is the same question when I read
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: the book, do I believe that?
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: If I believe it, then it saves me. If I don't,
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: it damns me.
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: Well I believe if you make the Bible personal freaking
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: is the Bible general?
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean belief. I've sort of come around
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: to this. There's a body of scholarship that talks about
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: belief in terms of loyalty. Now, I don't think that
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: what that means is that every time you read faith
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: you should read loyalty or faith, you should read allegiance.
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: But I do think that that's a nuance within the language.
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: It's not just cognitive assent. Yes, right, it's not just
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: an I believe that statement. There's a wonderful illustration. John
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: Verbaiki does some interesting work on what he calls participatory knowing,
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: and he talks about a shaman who watches wolves, and
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: he says, in watching the wolves, the shaman is not
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: developing beliefs about the wolves. The shaman is enacting what
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: the wolf is doing. He's getting a bodily sense of
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: how the wolf moves, what its habits are right, and
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: this helps him move and think like the wolf, so
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: that when he's hunting the wolf, he has a better
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: shot at getting the wolf. And you know that's paraphrastic,
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: but the general idea on this is when I think
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: about faith, I'm thinking about it in those terms. When
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: we're participating in some of these sacraments, we're not just
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: going through motions or trying to assent to something in
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: a cognitive strictly cognitive sense. We're actually participating. We're enacting it,
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: and in enacting it we learn to imitate Christ and
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: demonstrate that we are faithful to him, we believe he
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: is Lord, and we submit to him as Lord. All
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: of that sort of put into that same kind of context. Yeah,
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: So I don't know, just that clarification seems sometimes I
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: think we get when I think of the Reformation justification
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: by faith, it can get a little bit when we
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: talk about it. Sometimes you get a little bit of anemic, right,
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: And I don't think at all that that's where Luther
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: is pushing or you are, just to clarify for the audience,
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: it's not a you know, it's not like as simple
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: as I believe that chair will hold me, you know
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: that we often get that sort of conversation. It's like, No,
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: it's more like, you know, I'm gonna I'm going to
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: hang from a rope over the Grand Canyon and I
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: trust that it's going to hold me.
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: Well, you're you know. I mean, I drive this from Calvin,
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: but I think it catches Luther. Calvin talks about something
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: called told depravity, and people think, oh, that means you're
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: as bad as you can possibly be. No, total is
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: a statement of quality, not quantity. That is affects the
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: entirety of your being. There is no part of you
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: unaffected by sin might have varying degrees. So for example,
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: my eyes are awful, are awful because of original sin. Frankly,
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: your eyes might be less brave than mine, but nonetheless
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: there's still not nobody's eyes are absolutely utterly pristine. So
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: all we're talking about is degree, not quality. I think
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: Calvin applies the same principle to faith. I think he
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: says faith is total, that is, it involves the totality
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: of your being. So God doesn't save you on the
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: basis of the quantity of faith you have. He saves
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: you on the basis of the quality of your faith.
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: That is, it's the entirety of your being, not just
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: your mind, not just your will, not just your emotions.
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: The entirety of your being is inclined. So that and
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: here's how Luther, I think Bridge is it you talked
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: about us participating. Yeah, for Luther, Christ is participating in
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: the bread too. It's a double participation. He is somehow
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: mystically in the bread. Then you are somehow mystically participating
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: with sharing, in a sharing, so that there is union
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: with Christ. And it's this union because you see if
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: when Paul says there is therefore nomenal commendation of those
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: who are in Christ Jesus. The end doesn't imply just
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: your intellect. It implies the entirety of your being. And
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: that's why I think faith is total, not just partial.
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: Now I don't know exactly what all that means, but
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: I do think the Bible, and you know this, it's
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: the old word heart. That's a holistic term.
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: Right, It's not just it's not referring simply to our emotions.
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: When we read in Deuteronomy six' five love the loygric
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: oud with all your, heart with all your, soul with
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: all your. Strength, normally the WAY i would parse Those
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: hebrew words out is heart is you, know sort of your,
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: will your, desire all your volitional, capability your, soul which
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: is actually The hebrew word and fish often occasionally used for.
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: Corpse it refers to your whole, being not just some
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: sort of inanimate soul that we can't. See and then
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: strength in The hebrew, context it's actually ode is The hebrew.
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: Word it's the very and very, Good so you know
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: it's Your the WAY i like to think of, it
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: it's all your, oomph all your, muchness and it probably
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: refers to everything you can, muster not just how much
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: you can, bench but all of your resources piled in
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: right into. This that's all your. Strength and so that
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: CAPTURES i, think you, know again from An Old testament,
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: perspective that SOMETIMES i think this is a little easier
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: to see than when we get into The New, testament
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: that there is this, holistic whole self giving oneself over
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: to The, lord and that this is what faithfulness looks.
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: LIKE i like that idea of. QUALITY i hadn't heard
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: that about total gravity And, calvin that's really. Helpful AND
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: i think as long as we keep that in mind
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: as we go, forward that this isn't about a particular,
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: assent but that justification by faith can almost be read
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: as justification by faith and justification by faithfulness. Simultaneously we
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: just don't have the word for.
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: It, YEAH i, MEAN i try to be helpful occasionally
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: just for the share thrill of it. All AND i
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: think the guy that that picks this up maybe even
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: better Is Jonathan edwards in HIS treati someun religious. Affections
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: what does he mean by? Affections that's, right that's the
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: whole point of this. Thing so, YEAH i MEAN i
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: that's my read Of. Calvin calvin doesn't say that, exactly
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: but THAT'S i think that's What calvin is, Saying so.
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: It TRACKS i think for what from WHAT i understand
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: the scripture and the doctrine of again justification by. FAITH
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: i think we're we're in an interesting, Setting, greg where you,
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: know all this new scholarship is coming out with regard to,
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: that and you have an old guard who's, saying, no
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: we haven't gotten the you, know the doctrine of justification
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: wrong for the last fifty, years and the new guys
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: are kind of, saying, well we're not necessarily saying you
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: get it. Wrong we're just saying that this is an
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: aspect that's been Under that's the WAY i read. It
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: at least some of them are probably saying they're. Wrong
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: BUT i do think that we're sort of in this
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: moment where if we're not, careful our doctrine will become too,
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: reified too, stiff and we'll lose the ability to Allow
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: god's word to reform some of our. Ideas in the
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: same way that we See luther battling against The Catholic
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: church to do the. Same you, know, well.
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: This is precisely why you, know and we'll talk about
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: this in future. Podcasts when you do the ninety five,
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: Thesis luther, says The christian's repentance for The christian is
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: a way of. Life, yeah not an.
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: Event, yeah it has to be an ongoing, thing.
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: Right, well this is.
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: Helpful this gives us a good context for The, reformation
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: gives us a decent enough picture of the bleakness of
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: this moment and how The church's corruption combined with just
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: the difficulties of daily, life the tragedy of daily, life
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: creates a fair amount of un. Rest and for learned
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: folks Like, luthor who really understood what he was doing
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: from a theological, perspective begin to pick this apart and,
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: say we are contributing to the. Problem these things need
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: to change from a theological perspective because at route they
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: simply are not. Correct, yes, well this is. Good this
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: is a great introduction to the. Series, folks just come.
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: Back we're gonna do several episodes on, this and we'll
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: do them in, sequence and so you can kind of
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: get a broad sense of The. Reformation, again i'd encourage
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: you to check out the tours tours for ten That
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: greg offers there's a link in the show notes to
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: where you can find out more about. That and, yeah
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: we'll catch you on the next episode Of Thinking. Christian take, care. Everybody.
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: THANKS i just want to take a second to thank
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: the team At Life audio for their partnership with us
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: on The Thinking christian. Podcast if you go to lifeaudio dot,
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: com you'll find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their.
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: Network they've got shows about, Prayer bible, study, parenting and.
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: More