Latest / From the Founding of the City Archives - The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies / Episode 124 – The Military Tribunes with Consular Power
Transcript
- Dr Rad 0:00 All right. Welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr. Rad. Dr G 0:09 And I am Dr. G. And what a thrill it is to be here for this episode. Dr Rad 0:15 I know. So we have been tracing the history of Rome from the founding of the city. And last episode was kind of a turning point. So let's do a bit of a recap, shall we? Dr. G? Dr G 0:26 Oh, yes. So we've had this really sort of quite dramatic moment for the Romans in terms of how they think about their politics. Yes. And for Livy, and Dionysus of helican S's this issue has been framed around class struggle, patricians versus plebeians. And we've had this play for power from the plebeians being like we would like actually to be part of the consulship. That might be nice. Dr Rad 0:51 And while you're at it, we'd also like to be able to marry patricians because it seems a bit like segregation, otherwise, Dr G 0:59 it is awkward. Yeah. To be ruled by people, and for there to be no class mobility. Yes, exactly. And this has led to what appears to be a very dastardly plan on the half of the patrician side, where they're like, look, it would be absolutely a sacred travesty to allow the plebeians to be consoles, because it's not just a Magister see of law. It has a ritual component, there are relationships with the gods to be maintained. Dr Rad 1:33 Get your goofy little bean paws off the consulship. Dr G 1:36 You're tainted, you can't be part of this. Dr Rad 1:39 This is an us thing, not a wee thing. Yeah. Dr G 1:43 And so the patricians are a bit like that. And on the other hand, they've decided that the crisis is so overwhelming, because Rome is basically facing war on every side true, surrounded by potential enemies, and they really need to raise an army. And they're like, We need the plebeians involved, because we've got to have fodder on the field. Dr Rad 2:01 Yeah. And they are also much larger group than. Dr G 2:06 And in order to do that, they need to feel more than two armies, because usually consoles will lead an army each, but two armies is not going to be enough. So they've got a numbers issue, both at the command level, and at the rank and file soldier level. Definitely. They're like, how are we going to solve that? And they come up with a plan, the patricians come up with a cunning plan. Dr Rad 2:29 Oh, sorry, that's evil. Well, you know what? I think? I think it goes, I think it goes, Dr G 2:33 I think you're in very safe territory. And this cunning plan is to take the concept of the military Tribune, yes. Who is a figure who is kind of selected as they get brought into the army to lead a small group? Yeah. And to give them consular power, not the whole bag, they don't get to be consoles, you don't get the title. No, the title is the thing. You don't get the title, you don't get the capacity to move into the Senate later on in your career. But if you're a military Tribune, with consular power, yeah, a bit of a mouthful, I know. But the Romans are into that kind of thing. And that if you hold that position, what happens then is that all of a sudden, you've got the capacity to create more numerous armies more than two, yes. And you can send them out in any direction you need to Yeah, and get the stuff done, because they will have the legitimate legal authority, yes, to lead an army. Dr Rad 3:28 And we spoke last time about how, whilst our sources are very much pushing the idea that this is part of the conflict of the orders. And this is a turning point in the relationship between the patricians and the plebeians and how they see themselves belonging to the Roman state, etc. What most historians definitely see as being the case is that this is also part of just the evolution of Rome as a state in terms of obviously, governments change and systems change as circumstances and demographics change. And so, you know, sure room does seem to have been going through a tough period, if we look at other types of evidence, like archaeological evidence. And so it's possible that Rome did need to have a sort of regroup moment where they thought, Hmm, how is this all going to work for Rome now, rather than Rome, say, you know, 50 to 100, maybe even a couple of 100 years ago. Dr G 4:20 And we're seeing that sense in which Rome is in a constant state of change. Yes. And obviously, this runs in direct contrast to the things that the patricians really like we choose tradition and stability. Dr Rad 4:33 Imagine, imagine in 2022 this words, they just seem so alien coming out of your mouth, Dr G 4:40 tradition and stability. That is what we will provide patricians. Yeah. Dr Rad 4:44 So this decision to allow for military tribunals with consular authority, as well as the fact that they did indeed overturn this marriage law, which forbid the intermarriage of patricians and plebeians. Apparently, it does. actually appears that A, B and C and levies account. So that does actually it is balm to the wound. Dr G 5:05 Yes, I'm interested in what Libby thinks about this because it plays out in a very particular way in Dionysius of Halicarnassus. And I definitely want to tell you about it, but I'm keen to understand what Levy's perspective. Dr Rad 5:18 Okay, so, essentially, the way that it starts to unfold is that there are these elections which take place, obviously, once they've decided that this can be a thing. And the idea is that you could choose three of these tributes with consular power. So lots of Colombians are running around trying to rally support for themselves because they're just so excited. Oh, my God, I could do it. I could do it. I'm going to the prom. They're wearing their target candy. It is. I think you get a slight patrician bias coming through Levy's account. Not yet. Not that. Yeah. But yeah, it is that sort of upper class bias. I should perhaps say where he's kind of like, you can't believe that this is happening. It's so doubloon. Yeah. And he obviously sees these people as being troublemakers the way that he talks about them. He's like, these troublemakers. You know, they've done nothing but bad things for the state and look at them in their target can't do this. It's rope bolting. Anyway, the patrician Nobody's Fool. Dr G 6:16 Nobody's Fool. Yeah. Dr Rad 6:17 They're patricians. Looking around as well, and kind of horror and I think they're a bit lost. It's like getting punched in the face and someone ran away. Because it's so much for being competition because they're all so excited. And because they bringing so much energy because it's safer selection guys. And they think, Oh, God, we really want to like, I don't know, like work with Cool beans. That seems not ideal. And so they're not so keen on standing for office. They can like, you know, just take myself out of this situation. Dr G 6:47 I don't need to stand this year. I'm out. Yeah, Dr Rad 6:51 it's not my thing. The patrician leading patricians, I should say, however, they're like, Guys, you can't just step aside and let the Libyans run the show that would look like the patricians are just getting off on Rome all together and out of the government, Dr G 7:06 so don't like it anymore. And I'm not gonna do it. Dr Rad 7:09 Well, they end up being convinced that Yeah, yeah. So as we have to represent, and then of course, it this is all just farcical because when the election actually rolls around, it shows that people just wanted the option of having fob and to rule the state. What? Because the people all elect patricians to be these military Tribune's according to his account. Dr G 7:34 This doesn't make any sense. Yeah, Dr Rad 7:36 I know. It's look, it's a bit. But anyway, so yeah, that's kind of how it all my fees account Dr G 7:46 how, what an anti climax I have to say, Dr Rad 7:48 Yeah, but it's gonna get worse in the next year. This is just rounding off for 45. All right. Dr G 7:53 All right. So to that end, in comparison, there seems to be a good synergy and parallel between Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus. Okay, basically, the people the plebeians, love this idea of this military tributary with control of power like this is their way in and they're like, Yes, take that opportunity with both hands. Yes, people do heaps of canvassing, they're having a great time. The plebeians kind of look at their own going around and nominating themselves for the position and they like you're an idiot, I would never vote for you. I'd been out with you on cap just not gonna happen. I've seen what you've done. And so even though the plebeians are now sort of like looking at their own with the possibility of being able to vote the meat, they can't bring themselves to do it. Okay. And so, I mean, it's just massive, dramatic irony, I think. Because we've got this situation where they're like, Oh, well, actually, I mean, I'm going to vote for who I think is the best candidate. And lo and behold, it turns out that they all vote for patricians. They've got more experience. They've been in the role before, you know, they've had that high level command, what whatever they come from a distinguished military family. So you know, presumably, being a good general has been passed down through the ages. Yeah. And it's just baffling. Having said that, some of the names that come through for this we have not seen before. Dr Rad 9:17 Oh, are we going to go into 444 BCE? Well, not yet. No. Oh, really? Okay. The names are minor and 444 BC, and I was going to do a little Dr G 9:26 let's do a little doodly doo. I think it's a good time for doodly doo. Okay. Who gets voted in new say, Yeah, well, I've got some names for you. Okay. I've got candidates, men of distinction, namely, all a sudden peroneus at her rottenness, Dr Rad 9:47 yeah, that's a weird name. Yeah. Huh. at 13 at 13 atheria. Tina's Yeah, Dr G 9:52 Lucien Achilleas. Loose kiss Hmm. Bit of a mouthful as well. Dr Rad 9:58 Hey, there's remember names that sound like me. case. Dr G 10:02 And Titus, clue alias Siculus. Dr Rad 10:05 I also have those names down in my account. And even though they are allegedly or patrician, some of those names Dr. G, Dr G 10:14 some of these names we have not seen before holding high office. So there might be some speculation to be had about who these people really are. Yeah. But that's nevertheless what we told. Indeed, Dionysius then does this weird thing. And it's it comes through in the translation. So I don't know if I should blame him directly or, or blame the translator. But he calls these men that assume Pro Concealer power. Oh, but there's a bit of a mistake here. So I want to just give a bit of a pause, because this is a term that people hear all the time when they're doing Roman history. Pro Concealer power. Yeah. What is that? Exactly? Dr Rad 10:53 I don't think we've really talked about that. Because that's comes in much late comes in much later. Yeah, Dr G 10:57 so it's really misplaced here. And that should be the first flag definitely, that when we're not in the period of history where we understand Pro Controller power to be happening. No. And yet it creeps in in Dionysius, because we've got this bit of a retro reaction happening. This is how he's understanding it, or interpreting it for his audience to appreciate what this power is. Well, I Dr Rad 11:17 can see the similarity with military children's with concealer power, and what a Proconsul essentially has. Yeah, yeah. Dr G 11:23 So when we're talking about Pro Concealer, power comes from the Latin phrase pro con su li, which means instead of the consoles, right, that's essentially its basic thing. So there are a state official who exercises controller power. So that is Imperium. Yeah. So that's the basic side of things, not the ritual side of things. Yeah. Outside of the city. But importantly, they're not allowed to consult the auspices, right? So they can't look for special signs, Dr Rad 11:50 which would track with what military tribunes with consular authority was trying to avoid in the first place, which is plebeians doing things like taking your services? Dr G 11:59 Well, the thing is that as far as we can tell, the military Tribune's with controller power could consult the auspices interesting Dr Rad 12:05 Well, then why not just make them consoles never. Dr G 12:09 That's not how it works. Dr Rad 12:15 Oh, God room room. Dr G 12:18 It's the thing is that the military tribunes with consular power is all about keeping replicating the Bolivian Yes, but also keeping them out of class advancement. So yes, not being able to get into the Senate. Yeah, not being able to progress by stealth as it were into the patrician class. What. Wait a minute. I'm noticing like, oh, yeah, we'll have another that patricians don't want that. Yeah. But they do have the capacity to do this almost beside of things concerning the organs is something they're allowed to do, apparently. Dr Rad 12:56 Okay. The reason why I'm confused is because in case anybody remembers from previous episode, the patricians were kicking up such a stink about them becoming consoles, because of things like, you know, consulting the auspices. Am I wrong? Am I miss remembering? Dr G 13:11 No, I don't think so. Yeah, and yet, so this piece of information has come in part from studies that have been done on this position, right. So there is a little bit of confusion, not gonna lie. Yeah. But and we have these two threads, like these separate threads coming together, where we've got Libyan Dionysius telling us that, you know, these consular military Tribune's shouldn't be able to engage in ritual activity, and that's part of the deal. We want to keep them away from that side of things. Yes. But that doesn't seem to be necessarily the case. Looking around the whole thing. Yeah. And so this is part of the problem. So I think this is a point for argument. And its potential that scholars are going to disagree on it as well. But certainly, they don't have the capacity to then gain entry into the Senate. Yeah. Which is kind of like a thing. That would be nice. And they're not allowed to hold a triumph. Right. You know, there are certain limitations on what they're able to do. Okay. So that's, yeah, they're not exactly consoles, I guess. And, and then we get to this situation where we've all of a sudden, we've got these three military tributes or controller power, and they're all patrician, apparently. Yes. And then we have this situation where something seems to have gone wrong with the auspices. Yeah, well, I mean, almost instantly, something goes wrong with yours. But yeah, I mean, Dr Rad 14:40 as you said, like I get the sense that 444 BC set it off quite smoothly in that, you know, this the internal situation with Rome is settling down. And I guess with these, you know, three military attributes they're anticipating they will use them to go to war with they as well to deal with the eight queens in the valskis as well. has to do with the revolted idea. But exactly as you've highlighted, they are not in power for more than sort of three months. Dr G 15:08 They don't do anything. They really power for 73 days, apparently. Wow. That's very precise. Yeah. Thanks, Dionysus. Yeah. 73 days and then they have to voluntarily resign. Yeah. Because the omens haven't worked out the omens prevent them from being able to continue engaging in public business. Dr Rad 15:28 Yes. And it's the augers. Yeah, who seemed to have pointed out that there was a problem with the election. And the problem was, that guy is courteous. Guys courteous. Who was apparently, you know, the guy in charge, did not correctly choose the ground for his tent for this. Damn, it was about pitching a tent and the wrong place. Oh, I Dr G 15:55 have to say on this, I think, yeah, that I sense a bit of a conspiracy from the patrician, Dr Rad 16:03 it would seem that way that they Dr G 16:07 don't want this to happen. And they're finding alternative means to make it impossible. Yeah. Like, what are the chances after all of these years of pitching the tent in the right spot in the right way? This would be the year that somebody fluffed it. Dr Rad 16:23 Yeah. I'll just explain quickly as well. What this whole tent businesses because that probably sounds like they're probably you know, like going camping or something like that. No, quiet. We're talking about something that I believe the technical term is a tabernacle. Mmm hmm. Which was erected over the templum and it basically marked out where the ceremony was going to take place. And there was some sort of opening in the roof through which you could observe and look for the flight of the birds. Okay, sounds good. Yeah, if you didn't do it properly, you're in trouble. Can't see the bird. Yeah. Dr G 17:00 You're in a bit of a bird doo doo. Dr Rad 17:02 Hello, Alfred Hitchcock. I'm having trouble with my Dr G 17:09 so problems a foot those guys leave pretty Dr Rad 17:11 early. Yeah. Well, you know, I mean, some years. Dr G 17:15 They are replaced. Lo and behold, surprise, surprise by consoles. Yes. Indeed. And so that leaves us and we're in a roundabout. What seems to be for me is the date is not at all clear. I'll be I'll be level with me. This Dr Rad 17:29 is definitely 444 BCE. Yeah, Dr G 17:32 it's 444. But maybe it's 441. Okay, well, Dionysus gives us the great dates and they are the names of the Archons. And that doesn't tally up to where we are in the Roman numerical system as we've been sort of going through it anyway. Never mind that. We've got new consoles they're called Suffolk consoles because they don't take the year name yes, yes. They are. Lucius purpureus Muga Lana's disgusting name and Lucia sim peroneus. At rat Tina's another one of those Yeah, so if you've thought that name sounds vaguely awkward and familiar, that's because his brother always was one of these military Tribune's with consular power who just had to resign. Dr Rad 18:28 I'm just going to add in a little bit of extra detail here don't CFA, please there is actually dispute in my account about whether consoles or military tribunals should take the place of the guys that had to step down so they are not letting it go without a fight. Okay. And there is actually an interacts in this in Levy's account while they're obviously deciding what they want to do and then also holding the elections because otherwise there's you know, nobody there, and who should be chosen as the interacts? none other but our old friend, Titus quinque DS capital liners, Bob barters, Dr G 19:02 ah, the bearded man, Dr Rad 19:04 he has held the consulship many, many times for those who are keeping score at home. Dr G 19:11 Well, you definitely have more detail than me. Dionysius does mention that we've got an interacts doesn't say who it is, but that there is a swirling sort of conversation going on about whether there should be consoles or more military tribute. Yeah, given the situation. It hasn't gone. Well, the first time around. Yeah, maybe the gods don't agree. Dr Rad 19:32 Yeah, well, I think I think that in Levy's account, he talks about the fact that even though they did fight over this, it seems like the Libyans kind of give up a little bit because, with the patricians, having been chosen to be the first set of military Tribune's, I think the tribute is in the clubs have had the wind taken out of their sails a little bit. And so they're kind of like, well, I guess it's probably going to be patricians, who are military Tribune's or console So, you know, whatever, what is kind of the point in a sense, and they'd also rather be part an election where they actually, you know, really counted as serious candidates rather than an election where people were looking at them going you you're inferior, you're gross. Get off the stage. Yeah, Dr G 20:20 yeah. Look, I feel for this period for the analyst historians that we're reading. Yeah. So Levy and Dionysius, I don't think they've got too much information to go on, or at least the story as they give it to us, doesn't feel like it adds up very well. Dr Rad 20:36 No. And that's probably because they're making something that was probably quite complex and maybe slightly lengthier process. And you know, what they're telling us it was, they're making it maybe a little bit tidier, a bit a bit neater, a little bit more compacted than it perhaps. And I Dr G 20:51 think they're trying to find their way through while also keeping their allegiances and political, their own political perspective. in tact. Dr Rad 20:58 Oh, I believe there's definitely an elite perspective coming through my account to see Dr G 21:03 likewise, yes. And so and Dionysius does let us know that there are some problems with the annalistic records that he's been consulting and interesting for this period. Okay. He's like some of these people are not recorded in all of the animals, right? These names don't crop up everywhere. So we've already got some gaps, and we don't know how to feel them. And we also get a sense in which there's some confusion about who is holding what position? Are these people military tribunes, with control of power? Or are they consoles, right? We're not really quite sure when we start comparing the different animals. And so this means that Dionysius is telling us that he's going out and he's looking at these different lists. Yes. of who's doing what, in what year? Yeah. And he's like, look, the lists are not congruent, depending on which list you're looking at. Yeah, we've got some issues here. So he's telling us he's doing his research. Yeah, he's also acknowledging that he's not really sure what to make of the gaps that he's coming across. Well, Dr Rad 22:03 to be honest, I would rather that he did that Ben pretended that everything was fine. And interestingly, levy also has a bit of a moment like this, but it comes through in a little anecdote, he tells us about our data. Do you have anything about our day? Or shall I Dr G 22:17 please go into our day, or I have a little okay, but you go. Dr Rad 22:20 So whilst all of this stuff is going on, internally, ambassadors from a day I arrived in Rome, basically continuing to bitch about the decisions that the Romans had made. If you're not sure what decision I'm talking about, please see some of our previous episodes. But basically, the Romans had made a terrible decision territorially, by the day, it's been a bit greedy and taken it for themselves. Dr G 22:39 They had taken our day off, and I'll do the local elders and people were not happy about that. No. And historically, they're different from a different language group. They're quite a unique people. They're not far from Rome. But they definitely don't want to be Roman. Yeah. And the Romans took their land, it was kind of like, deal with it. And the audience were like, no, yeah. And conflict ensued. Yeah. So Dr Rad 23:00 the Romans are aware that because not everyone was in favour of the decision to take their territory, the Romans are aware that the idea is have a just claim to restoring their land. And they can also tell that the people of IDEO will stick to the treaty that they had with Rome and remain like a friendly people if the right decision is made. Dr G 23:21 Oh, ouch. Okay. Yes. Yeah. Dr Rad 23:23 Well, I mean, they're not so much saying this. I think it's just that it's clear that this is the situation, you know, they're obviously just unhappy at this temporary situation. It doesn't have to be this way. But the Senate felt that well, the people did make this decision, and we never overturned a firm decision of the people. Plus, it's really awkward time ambassadors, because we've only just tried to you know, appease the plebeians. It's really tense between the patricians lovely hands right now might not be the right time to set a precedent for overturning a decision made by the people. And so they asked her a little bit more time, and they promised the audience that they won't be sorry, if they have been patient, they just need more time to talk to the people. And is it this moment that they sorted out all their internal stuff? So it's at this moment that that election of consoles and everything takes place, and you got an interact and all of that kind of stuff? Once all of that stuff is sorted? They end up having the treaty or with that day out, renewed? Okay. And this is where Livi brings up documentation? Oh, yeah. Because he talks about the document of the of this treaty without without data, and he talks about the fact that it proves that these men that we talked about as coming in as the stuff that consoles did serve as consoles, even though their names were not included in ancient annals old list of magistrates, okay. And he talks about the fact that okay, well, maybe their names were included, because the year began with military tributes and therefore there was some confusion about whether to include They're in Arizona or whatever. And he also says that he was using like cuneus Mecca or Mesa if you want to have a soft see there. He mentions him saying that these were the names of the men that were on the treaty with idea and that these are the names also found in the linen rolls held in the temple of Munna, moneta? I think it is. Oh, yeah. I presume that this is the temple of Juno moneta, which was erected on the Capitoline Hill in 344. Okay, yeah. And, yes, I mean, just a little bit of extra detail. I believe that this also later helps to room and mint. Dr G 25:38 Yeah, no, that's very cool. Yeah. So Liv is telling us that one, he's done more research. He's gone and looked for additional documents beyond the animals, because it does make sense that the consoles of this year would their names would not be recorded in the animals. Yes. Because they're not serving as the first concealer magistrate. Yes. And so they could have been left off, particularly if the Romans this is kind of like a rare thing to have happened. Yeah. It's like, how do the Romans navigate that? They don't have a way of doing that yet? Yes. They haven't formed their tradition, as it were, indeed, and this temple. So I mean, we're looking at a temple that's built nearly 100 years later. Dr Rad 26:23 Yeah. Well, I mean, it's obviously that sounds really suspicious, but Livy is also writing hundreds of years after the temple was Oh, Dr G 26:32 yeah. disputing that it might contain it might end up containing pieces of writing that are 100 years old. Yes, yes. But yeah, it's obviously it's a tricky thing as well, like how that preservation is happening. Dr Rad 26:43 Yeah. And it's not clear. Livy doesn't make it 100% clear that he personally saw the treaty with our day. I think I get more of the impression that maybe it's like cuneus maker or Licinius. Mesa, you want to say Dr G 26:57 he's reading mesa. And he's phasers. Dr Rad 27:01 Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. And the linen rolls might be the thing, I suppose that maybe insulted but given that that temple which is erected in Rome, you know, live is not rubies, not Roman, is not renowned for going travelling for source material. But he's also not It's not impossible that he, you know, he Dr G 27:24 sorted I suppose he moved on. He may. Yeah, maybe he went on a research jaunt. Dr Rad 27:29 Maybe he did. We have we have done that. Dr G 27:33 So I think that kind of wraps up this relatively complicated year of 444. Dr Rad 27:40 It does. And even though we had all this threat of warfare live, he is very clear that actually things are pretty calm. Even though there are threats. There are threats, but there's no actual warfare. Dr G 27:51 Yeah, it's kind of amazing how it seems that everything is built up in this sense of the threat coming from all directions. And yet, we don't hear anything about any of those enemies really advancing on Rome, and even our data sends ambassadors first. It's like, they're not going to war yet. They're having a preliminary discussion decide whether it's worth their time. Dr Rad 28:11 Yeah, no, exactly. It is like, Oh, my God, the tension is built to such a feat of pitch and nothing and nothing nothing, Dr G 28:18 which also may make one suspicious. Dr Rad 28:21 Yeah, I think so. But, you know, we know that that's the kind of pattern that our accounts tend to follow the drama of it all indeed. Alright, so that means that Dr. G, I think it is time for the personal pick covering for me that I left my phone in the other room. Dr G 28:45 I am the sound effect. Dr Rad 28:47 Alright, so our first category is Well, I hope you terrible. fifth category is military cloud Dr G 29:01 military cloud. I think that's a big fat. Oh, look, let's explain where we office. Yeah, they could win. Rome could win 50 Golden Eagle. It could be very impressive. Yeah. Chances are they won't because I'm about to give them zero on the first category. That's right. No military clout whatsoever. Dr Rad 29:17 No, there's none of that. Alright. Expansion. Dr G 29:21 Oh, that's. Dr Rad 29:23 Well, although, I mean, they do restore the treaty. But maybe they Dr G 29:28 expand their mind. Dr Rad 29:30 Diplomacy. Oh, well, I Dr G 29:32 suppose the treaty does count as something and there is quite a diplomatic moment there isn't there? Dr Rad 29:37 I think so. Yeah. Yeah. So I think maybe I mean, it it's a diplomatic moment that the room is a almost creating for themselves because they made such a terrible decision. I don't want to go too high. Yeah, but maybe a five. I think a five is good. Yeah. Okay. So we've got a five and Dr G 29:54 also they kind of make that decision on the back of not wanting to upset the people that are already very upset. Transcribed by https://otter.ai