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Robert Mahoney on Humanizing Violence Prevention S2-EP17 · SpaceTomatoes

0:00
So if you have these bus drivers or delivery drivers making these reports, who actually analyzes that on the other end, determines if that's a real threat or not.
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And do you foresee like AI becoming a part of this in the future and analyzing these threats?
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I, yeah, so.
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Please say no.
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Please say no.
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As an expert in the field, I, I, I say.
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All right, everybody.
0:51
Welcome back to another episode of the Space Tomatoes podcast.
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I'm one of your hosts, Havoc.
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I'm the other host, Alex.
0:59
Hello.
1:00
Welcome back.
1:00
Hey, all that stuff.
1:02
Today we have with us a special guest, Robert Mahoney.
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He is the founder and CEO of TVTP, which blew some bits off my hard drive just now.
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I was going to say the company name, but I'll go ahead and turn it over to you and you can
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introduce yourself and your company and kind of what you guys do.
1:22
Yeah, sure.
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So thanks a lot for having me on the program.
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It's an absolute pleasure.
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So as you mentioned, Robert Mahoney, CEO and founder of TVTP Solutions.
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So that's an acronym that stands for Targeted Violence and Terrorism Prevention.
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What we do is we are sort of an educational and consulting service.
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We go to municipalities, we'll go to school districts, mental and public health institutions and programs and law enforcement agencies.
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and discuss and sort of train how prevention should work.
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And I think we'll probably get deeper into my definition of what prevention is
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as opposed to what I believe right now,
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sort of an overvaluation on protection and sort of preparedness slash response type stuff.
2:13
And as sort of a part of that sort of training and consultation, we let them explore how sort of radicalization works, how people sort of become pathologically fixated and then sort of believe that violence is sort of a good expression of their frustrations and their grievances and the like.
2:42
and then how that is a very definitive pathway and what types of behaviors go along with it.
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And really trying to pop this framing of random acts of violence.
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And what that sort of framing does is it puts us more into a defensive mindset
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and it also focuses our attention on certain things that aren't threats
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and diminishes things that actually are behavioral signs that somebody's struggling
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and could lead down to a pathway of violence.
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And so long story short, that's kind of what we do.
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And we try to create coordination protocols and networks amongst all of those different sectors
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so that everybody is kind of moving with one concept of care around individuals that are struggling.
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All right. So I guess, you know, as part of that, I imagine you're holding seminars, you're holding training sessions, events. Are these lengthy, like weeks long or are they day long, you know, quick sessions or how does that work?
4:01
So it's a combination of we're kind of bespoke in that sense. So depending on the level of training that you want or what type of consultation you need, if you just want people to sort of get on the bus of this is a more human centric way of preventing these types of attacks that pays dividends in a multidisciplinary sort of way.
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we can do a one hour sort of session or a three hour or a half day sort of sort of session if you
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want sort of more technical stuff of hey these are our response plans this is how we've been
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sort of attacking this problem um is this are we are we too defensive should we go more proactive
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what types of things in the plan should we do we can also do that where we kind of draw the line
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is when people, you know, clients or prospective clients come to us and say, hey, you know,
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we have an individual that we're sort of worried about. Can you examine, you know, their file or
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something like that? And that's like, no, that's not what we do. We do not take on cases. That is,
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we have individuals that we've sort of partnered with that have that technical sort of classic
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inter intersession or interruption intervention type skills, um, as well as how the management
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at the end of, and I think we'll probably go into, you know, BTAM or behavioral threat assessment
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and management, you know, that, that M in that acronym is a highly clinical sort of speciality.
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And so we, we can teach people about behavioral threat assessment and we can go right up to that
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point where, you know, somebody has a case and they're looking for, for some type of clinical
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intervention and then progressing to the management. So that's where we sort of draw the
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line in the sand of where we can go. How do you, how do you make, uh, so just thinking about this,
6:05
it seems like a really complex area, right? With, with a lot of moving parts,
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personalities. Anytime you've got a personality involved, it's, it's, you know, and two,
6:17
it becomes a very challenging thing, right? So how do you, how do you in a brief period of time,
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you know, a half a day, let's say, let's give it a full half day. How, how do you meaningfully
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adapt someone to be able to look for signs without causing them to go into what we all know
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is a psychological you know trait that humans have where once you're taught something you start
6:48
looking for that thing and finding it where it may not exist yeah i i think that's a it's an
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interesting point and it's an interesting aspect of my job in that most of the time,
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people are already doing that. They just don't recognize it. So, you know, through evolution
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and anthropological sort of the way we've sort of are hardwired, our senses are designed to look
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for abnormalities, whether it's, you know, from a sight or hearing or a sense of smell or taste or
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something like that. And so those are all of our defensive mechanisms. And you can probably include
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sort of like a sixth sense as well. If you enter the room and there are certain environmental
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factors that are within that room that make it just uncomfortable. And so really what we're doing
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is we're just pulling on that thread that's already there, right? And we're sort of amplifying
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people's awareness to things that they are already aware of, but aren't necessarily
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factoring in or aren't processing in the right way. And so to your point of sort of recognizing
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things that they think are a threat, but aren't a threat is more a case of that's fine. Like we all
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make mistakes. We don't want to sort of put the lid on that. If there is something that is
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happening, whether it's in a space, you see something, you smell something, whatever,
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we should have an open sort of process by which that concern can be elevated to somebody with
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some technical expertise. So you don't want to stifle that sort of stuff. What you want though
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is if there is a concern and they report it, okay, who's there to analyze what that concern is?
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And then how does that interact with other things? Whether it's other social programs,
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or if it does need to be elevated to a law enforcement issue, or if it's a mental health
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issue, or things like that. And so even in a short space of time, what we really are doing
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is trying to just reframe the issue where we're not focusing so much on the, we're looking at the
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what, but we are processing sort of the why and how individuals have gotten to that point. And if
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their behavior is something that is concerning, if it's concerning to you or if it's concerning to
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you know, other people, how do we report that?
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And then what is the coordination about what, what do we do about that?
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Are these government agencies that you work with or are they mostly private
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civilian type?
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So we take clients of all kinds. Typically we, we,
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we shy away from the federal government just because certain and federal
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programs that are getting like federal funding.
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that can just be a little bit of a hiccup on, you know, how we do things.
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So it's typically more localized where we'll work with like a particular municipality.
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We might have a few people that represent the state that are sort of in the audience.
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Maybe some state police or state departments of health or education or things like that.
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But really, most of our clients are kind of like the general public.
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or institutions that are sort of within the public realm.
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So you wouldn't consider like the Department of Rec
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to be sort of under that like government kind of sanctioned umbrella,
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even though it kind of is,
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but they see people in a very different lens
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and interact with them in a very different way
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than your traditional law enforcement and things like that.
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So, you know, Departments of Rec will work with,
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We had a good session with FedEx a few years back where we realized that they didn't have a process for suspicious activity with their drivers.
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Where if you were a driver and you were yelled at or you were assaulted or somebody came at you, they had a process for that.
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But if you were on that route for 10 years, never delivered a package to this house before or delivered it once every three weeks.
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and then all of a sudden you're there every single day and every single package has like a hazardous
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material thing they didn't have any process for like hey there might be something going on at this
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house um we go to uh libraries libraries again are great meeting grounds for for individuals a
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lot of people will from a community standpoint will will go to the library so we've done trainings
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for that houses of worship
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excellent partners
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in houses of worship
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excellent partners with
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sort of like small
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business associations
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getting them involved
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and obviously sort of like
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your veterans groups or your social
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sort of groups
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for different types of individuals
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within the community
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interesting
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it almost
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and this is going to be
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a very huge oversimplification, right?
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Obviously, I'm old.
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So, you know, varying degrees of old.
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I'm up there.
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So I remember back in the day, you know,
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there was a method of policing that was commonplace
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and almost everywhere used it.
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And it was broadly defined as community policing.
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Where officers were out in the neighborhoods they were you know you find them at a park playing ball with kids You find them in the libraries You find them you know just kind of cruising down the street maybe you know hanging out with people and talking with them et cetera And largely all police forces at this time now look more like they ready to be
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airdropped into Afghanistan. And they view every single person out there as a strict and total
13:19
enemy. And in some ways I can, I can understand a little bit of that, I guess, in some ways,
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but it almost sounds like what's being done here is privatizing community policing. Um,
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I guess how, how, how does this parallel into, um, so, okay. So in your, in your stuff, right,
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you're doing these threat assessments, you're helping people understand behavior, uh, behavioral
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patterns, clues, signs to look for, and then to initiate some action, right. Which is largely
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labeled voluntary and i'm going to do the finger quote thing voluntary because we hear that all the
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time and it's anything but right right in your case you you are a privately held company correct
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yep right and you're self-funded or do you have funding and grants for all funded okay so self-funded
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so that's a great thing right that's a great start but in the literature that i've read you also have
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a point where it's hand off to law enforcement, right? Which makes sense. There's not a bad thing,
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right? I mean, if you get to a point where it's like, this is a problem, there's a very serious
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problem here, and we've got to hand this off. I guess the question that I have is,
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what is the follow through on that, right? Because we all know, engaging an officer comes with a very
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high degree of risk. We've seen it in the news, you know, mental crises end up in dead people
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when it should have been, you know, a trip to the ER or, you know, some other management method,
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right? So, so what process do you have to try and minimize that? How do you track that? And how do
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you gauge statistically how much of that is occurring that wasn't occurring prior to your
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efforts. So a lot there. So let's, yeah, no problem. Well, I'll try to take a step-by-step.
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So one of the things that I think is prolific throughout, you know, not just the U.S., but just
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in general with human beings is a lack of understanding as to what the drivers are for
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our behaviors and our thoughts and opinions. And one of the things that we don't realize,
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we sort of realize maybe subconsciously, but not consciously, is that feelings drive our behaviors
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and feelings inform our opinions, not the other way around. And so because of that, we don't
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operate in the world in a sort of linear logic fashion. We don't operate with reason on a lot of
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different decisions and we're not logical. And because it's more emotion that's sort of
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driving our decision making and our opinions and thoughts on things. And there's actually a great
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study on, on just this fact where, where they pulled where they, they had people who were first
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time electric car, uh, buyers rank like their top 10 reasons why they wanted to buy an electric car.
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And a lot of the top three were things that were more emotional, looks cool, like the performance,
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um you know feel i i feel rich when i'm in one like those types of of more emotional sort of
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things and things like environmental impact were down in sort of like the you know seven to eight
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range and so after one year they came back to these same people and they asked him the exact
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same question you know why did you buy an electric vehicle and environmental impact went all the way
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up to like number one or two. And what they deduced from that was that it's actually our
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behavior that creates a thought and opinion about something. And then we sort of post-rationalize
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our feelings for it. And so the actual physical act of doing something or the feeling or the
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sensation that you get when you are looking at something or you enter a room or you feel something,
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that makes your behavior that influences your behavior and then your thoughts about sort of
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that individual or that business or that you know that car right so there's a fundamental
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sort of misunderstanding of what the drivers are for behaviors and so this is a huge thing for
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behavioral threat assessment like you have to understand sort of what types of behavior not
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only what types of behaviors you're looking for, but what might be the major driver of
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those behaviors.
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The reason why I think we have become more police-oriented or more surveillance state
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sort of, you know, and moved more into that sort of modality has been this idea, one, the framing
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around it. I mentioned earlier, you know, random acts of violence. When you use that framing,
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you put people in sort of a box that they are sort of just playing the worst bingo game that
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has ever been played and they are just waiting for number 36a to be called and that's it your
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time is up and so if i'm within that that box of framing it makes sense logical sense
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and and also behavioral sense from a feeling standpoint why you would take sort of a hard
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right turn and say, yeah, go put as many protection measures as I, as you possibly can between me
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and whatever, right? Cause we don't know, cause you said it was random. We don't know
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who any of these people are. So, so yeah, I want to have more cameras up here. I want to have,
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you know, a bigger police presence. I want to have all of these things because you've basically
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told me that, you know, at any given time, you know, something bad can happen and we would have
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no idea who that individual would be. And so you can sort of see that process of, yeah, let's focus
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in on putting more protection measures. Let's focus in on putting more rapid response teams
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in case something does happen, they can get there as fast as possible. The paradox to all of this
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is that that narrative is counter to what you hear after an attack about those institutions
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knowledge of that individual, right? You always hear this character arc of, of the individual
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that committed the attack of being concerning behavior at school or neighbors had complained
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about, you know, things that they were doing.
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They may have had touch points with mental and mental health
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or other types of social programs or something like that.
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They may have even had touch points with law enforcement.
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And I think that disconnect has really created sort of a logical breakdown
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in how we design systems to help that.
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And we've actually tried, we've basically created, you know, have you ever heard of the term latent error?
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For those who haven't, it's basically you've got active error, which would be me sort of like bumping into my mic or stubbing my toe on my desk.
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But then latent error is sort of an examination of did I put that microphone and my desk in a spot where the probability of me hitting it or me stubbing my toe went up higher?
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and when we're talking about sort of framing and narratives and things like that what i try to say
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is that there is a value to those protection and response measures however it is overvalued
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um and there needs to be a balancing that needs to happen with prevention measures none of this
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violence is random if that individual was on a bunch of people's radar and people within the
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community had said, hey, we're concerned about this person. They need some help. So the latent
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error that we've sort of created is this hyper specialization system where we will focus in on
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one risk factor or one part of the problem. And we will have a system that sort of has their lane
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very defined. And we have seen states and municipalities have analytics where they know
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if you are a first time, for example, recipient of food stamps, they know from the month,
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week and day that you're going to come back and have a housing assistance issue. Right.
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But the hyper specialization, I only take care of the food stamps and I only take care of the housing things. And so you end up shifting the responsibility to the person sort of in crisis to sort of navigate through these things.
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even though the system knows the probabilities of what's going to happen over that sort of
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theoretical corner. But the person is just basically trying to get food on the table.
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And so it is, in a way, we have sort of handcuffed ourselves into a process
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where we have developed certain thresholds of response,
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where that concerning individual,
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even though there's a bunch of touch points
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for mental health or law enforcement,
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well, they're not doing anything illegal.
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So law enforcement really is not going to sort of step in
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on a prevention or do an intervention.
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That's not what they're designed necessarily to do.
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Mental health will probably ask,
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Are they a threat to themselves or others?
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And if you say, well, no, I don't think so yet, but it looks like they're getting more and more agitated.
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They might be heading down to say, yeah, all right, well, you know, I've got X amount of clinicians and I've got a stack of people that actually are.
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So they're going to just have to get to the back of the line, right?
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And so you sort of create this systematic approach that is looking as if this individual is going down sort of a logical sort of step by step and that eventually they will pass over that threshold and then logically we will be able to respond.
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And that is the real sort of shift that I try to get these municipalities and the general public in general to sort of understand how we've come to this point.
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The narrative, too, also when you add in more of those protection measures and response measures and things like that, that also has a counter narrative.
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So I've gone in front of SROs or school resource officers many times, and they're great people, and I have no problems with them, and this is not a knock on any school or anything like that that uses SROs or security guards in general.
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It is interesting to hear the narratives that the SROs think about themselves as opposed to the narrative that students and faculty have of the SROs Where the SROs think that they are an extension in many times of the school counselor
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right? They look at themselves as somebody who is there to be a pal and a friend and a trusted adult
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or a confidant or anything else. That is not the narrative that students have. The students,
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the narrative that students have is when shit hits the fan, you are here to provide security.
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And I am not going to go to you to tell you about problems that I'm having with my boyfriend or my
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girlfriend. I am not going to go to you to tell you that my dad lost his job yesterday or that my
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grandfather died. Right. And so you, the narrative that sort of gets put in place oftentimes is not
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the narrative that is perceived. And I can give on top of that SRO narrative, I can give you an
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example of a personal thing that I've been sharing, you know, off and on for a while now,
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which is I went into a liquor store one time and as I approached the liquor
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store,
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I could see the CCTV cameras and I could see bars on the windows and I could,
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I went through a reinforced door and then I immediately went into like this
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holding pen where I had to go through a metal detector.
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I get wanded by an armed security guard.
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I go into the front,
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the store,
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which has got this really harsh fluorescent light.
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I can sort of see the TVs that are showcasing me in the thing.
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And then outside,
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it's floor to ceiling bulletproof glass and I have to do all the commerce through a drawer right
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and I remember having this sort of like epiphany while I was in there where I was like
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I'm in the safest place I think I've ever been in my life and I've never been more scared in my
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entire life right and the reason why is because the narrative shifts from a human standpoint of
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not like, oh, look at all these logical protection measures that this place has put up. Aren't I
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safe? It's what the hell goes on here that they felt the need that all these things were necessary,
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right? I don't feel safe or secure or anything. And you just want to get out. And as a security
28:32
professional, that's kind of like the worst thing you can do to your environment. Because as I
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mentioned sort of anthropologically we are attuned to those abnormalities right for our own sort of
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survival and without getting too too zen on it but i do have this nice haiku that i often share with
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audiences where it's like as a security professional you want to make that water as still as possible
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so that you can see what's causing the ripple.
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And by putting all this noise into the environment,
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whether it's logic or not,
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it creates a lot of disturbances, right?
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There's a lot of disturbances in the force, so to say, okay?
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I go to schools or businesses or law enforcement agencies
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and I pose the question to them,
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You show me the difference between somebody that's sitting in the corner that's not speaking, that doesn't cause a lot of problems, that doesn't seem to have any friends, doesn't interact with really anybody, who's just quiet and reflective, compared to somebody who has the exact same traits that's in a death spiral of isolation.
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and you can't, right? And so what you do is you focus in on what the immediate thing
30:02
in front of your face is. And that oftentimes reprioritizes things that you might need to pay
30:13
attention to that aren't being paid attention to. And what ends up happening with these individuals
30:18
that sort of commit these attacks and you start going through their sort of life story
30:24
and their character arc is you begin to see things that are sort of innocuous one-off
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instances that began to sort of pile up.
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And you began to sort of, they started to compound onto one another.
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And what's interesting about seeing these things is that a lot of those instances aren't threat-related.
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They're not violence-related.
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And I mentioned a few, like the breakup of a boyfriend or a girlfriend or losing your job or death of a family member or something like that.
31:04
Those aren't things that you would go, oh, the behavioral threat assessment team needs to know about that, right?
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Or I need to share that with the SRO or the local cop that's walking through or the security guard or something like that, right?
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And what ends up happening is because we've sort of created these thresholds systems is that these things are sort of left to fester.
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And because we have sort of have an imbalance of our ability to do actual prevention as opposed to this inflated sort of protection and response sort of modalities, we are trying to sort of thread the needle of if something gets to that point, we'll be able to intercede it.
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And we've seen time and time and time again that there's only so fast that you can go for response.
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There's only so many protection measures that you can put up before it doesn't feel like a school, it doesn't feel like a business, the whole town feels like it's under martial law.
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There are just certain things that you can't do, or if you do, you're going to have limited success.
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I'd say today, at least now, still, I don't think it's legal to do that, right?
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Not entirely in the way that potentially some people might like to.
32:45
Right.
32:45
So, so another question on that, right? And this one, this one keeps coming back into my head, right? And I don't see how, how it could be. I'm sure you, you deal with it. I'm sure it's, it's a question that comes up, but it's, I think it's a very pertinent and critical one is who gets to decide what an extremist or extremist ideology or threat or intention is.
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And I'll just go through some history. We've seen Muslims in general, anyone that practices that religion, you know, is Islamic, become by default terrorists.
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We've then seen through previous changes and political narrative winds and shifts that, you know, next thing you know, evangelical Christians could be terrorists.
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And then we've seen where people that just have a very bad taste for government and are quite vehemently against government in general become extremists.
33:48
Yeah.
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Whereas none of those things, not one of them actually deems anyone an extremist, not in my eyes.
33:56
Right.
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So how do you deal with that when you go and these winds are shifting and the next thing you know, an entire subcategory of the populace becomes like, oh, we need to scrutinize these guys and now we've got the tools to do it.
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and you start looking for, you will find those patterns.
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You could take the most normal, perfectly aligned individual,
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and if you stare for long enough, you're going to start finding these.
34:29
Yeah, yeah.
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And so I think your point is well taken, and it is 100% true.
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And one of the things that we try to get our audiences to reframe is to not look at the what, but to look at sort of the behaviors and the why.
34:54
and so understanding how people and this is like a really bad term and i i wish i had i i need to
35:02
spend some time to come up with a different term because when you start saying like radicalized
35:07
people begin to sort of think of sort of like the mujahideen or or or um you know different things
35:15
as you sort of like mentioned right like you become radicalized i use it to sort of describe
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somebody who has attached themselves to something, not because necessarily of what the message is,
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but because of the intangibles that come with it. And that all of us in general are looking for three
35:39
metaphorical buckets to fill. And that's identity, purpose, and community. And we search for those
35:49
types of things all the time, whether it's to reconfirm that we're still within a community,
35:55
or we still have an identity or a purpose, or to go and find one, right? Because the human brain
36:03
finds it absolutely abhorrent and unacceptable to not know what it is, right? And so in the
36:12
absence of that, we go start looking for a magnetic north. We have to attach ourselves
36:17
to something. Um, and you sort of see this throughout life. You're like, you'll see something,
36:23
you know, obviously teenagers, they're, they're growing up. They want to, they're trying to find
36:27
their place in the world. They have some struggles of identity and, you know, where they are
36:31
community wise and purpose wise. You find this after, um, you know, if you have a life event as
36:38
an adult, whether you have children and it sort of changes your trajectory, um, you change jobs,
36:43
you change to a different city. You get out of the military. Your entire life has been sort of
36:49
regimented for however long. Now all of a sudden it's on you and now you're no longer an officer,
36:55
right? Or you retire, you spent 30 years as a plumber and you've done one week of retirement
37:02
and you sort of are beside yourself. Like you don't know who you are. And so things like religion,
37:10
things like different political parties, a combination of the two, they fill those buckets.
37:20
They fill those senses and they feel that emotion. What you end up finding when you become
37:28
sort of radicalized is that that becomes your entire raison d'etre. You sort of have a more
37:38
focused down sort of reality prism where anything and everything that comes at you or a reality
37:47
filter gets filtered through that prism and then fills those buckets, whether it has something to
37:53
do with that subject or not. Right. And this goes back to sort of my thing of like looking at people
38:02
either logically or looking at people more from a human centric and emotional standpoint.
38:07
These things that we put into those buckets or that we get attached to, they don't have to make logical sense.
38:15
okay and i think what what you mentioned of sort of like ice of making these sort of groups and
38:24
and focusing in on them as if you know everybody that is under that religion or is under that
38:32
political party um has these sort of same same philosophies or ideas is looking at it too much
38:41
in a logical sense. They're looking for a sort of logical debate to be able to, and they think that
38:50
they can change thoughts and opinions and that that will flow upwards to behaviors which will
38:56
flow to feelings I sorry shit flows downwards okay It feelings behaviors thoughts and opinions It doesn go up And so I see a lot of friction with isolating certain groups for targeting or
39:18
an attention that is put on there because it is a logically easier thing. They don't believe what
39:26
I believe, or they don't look like how I look. And therefore that sort of difference from a logic
39:34
standpoint, you know, I can insert myself. Um, and so I think that I like to tell my honest is
39:41
do not get wrapped up in the, the, what get wrapped up in more of the, why, why does it look
39:50
like these individuals are latching onto something. Is there, are they becoming more
39:55
distant? Is the environment that you're creating in your classroom or your business or even your
40:01
town not allowing for them to express themselves or for them to find a type of identity or a
40:12
community or purpose or something like that. And that's where you're sort of, your interruption,
40:18
or your intercession sort of needs, needs to be. And I think this is sort of like, there's,
40:27
there's a difference. I don't use the term intervention. I don't like to, I've, I've moved
40:31
away from it. So I use more interruption or I use more intercession. I use negotiation a lot
40:37
because I think when you have, when you attach yourself to something and it becomes sort of like
40:44
your identity, you get a purpose out of it, you get your community from it. And it becomes who you
40:51
are. When you do an intervention, and even when I say intervention, that's a top-down power dynamic,
40:57
okay? That is something that sort of works with individuals who are sort of having a chemical
41:02
addiction, right? Where you come in and you go, you know, hey, Steve, we found you last night
41:09
sleeping in the gutter. We are taking control of this. You have lost control of your life,
41:15
and we are going to sort of take control of you and move you in a different path.
41:22
That sort of works because the individual kind of has sort of an emotional thing, like,
41:29
I don't want to be like this. I want to get clean. And there's a movement towards that.
41:34
If you use that strategy to somebody who has been radicalized, that's a personal attack. That isn't you trying to offer me to something better. That is you telling me that you just don't like what I am, what I associate with, and what my viewpoints and what my thoughts and opinions are.
41:58
right? And so actually what happens is that I'm going to dig in my heels. I'm going to dig in my
42:03
heels and I'm going to become more distant and more disconnected to you, to everybody at this
42:08
school or to the office, to my family, whatever, because you are now personally attacking me.
42:15
And so in what most interventions or most the general public and how we approach individuals
42:22
that are sort of, that we are concerned about, we try to do that sort of top-down approach. We try
42:27
to do a logical debate of trying to introduce facts or data points or something like that
42:34
so that we can change their opinions and then that will change their behavior.
42:38
Again, going up rather than down.
42:41
People are only as faithful as their options dictate.
42:44
And we've had a number of attackers who have written in their manifestos and things like
42:49
that before their attack that they sort of know that what they're going to do is wrong.
42:56
They express regret. They express condolences to the families that they're eventually going to hurt, to their own family for the pain that they're going to cause. And that doesn't make logic sense. If you know that what you are doing is going to cause this amount of damage and harm, jump off.
43:16
right no i can't well you don't have a chemical addiction why can't it is a psychological and
43:24
emotional like necessity right like i said we cannot not know who we are and so what you have
43:34
to do is you have to approach it as you are providing options those other options and you
43:39
are trying to look for things that can fill that those identity community and purpose buckets
43:45
at an equal or greater rate than whatever it is that they are going, that they have attached
43:51
themselves to. And it's almost like, yeah, go ahead. It sounds like what you're describing
43:57
is a person who feels they don't have options. They don't have another route. There is no other
44:03
road. And again, while I understand that piece of it, right, I guess my main concern is there
44:11
are a lot of people out there that don't fit into molds. We are all individuals. Uh, you know,
44:16
I've, I've known and may have possibly been the kid that was quiet and didn't say much and had
44:24
a distaste for authority, even in my school life. Uh, and, and, you know, very few friends,
44:32
uh, didn't want to talk, didn't want to talk to you. Uh, you know, that kind of stuff.
44:37
You're on the list.
44:38
I'm totally on the list. Yeah. Anti-authoritarian. Yeah. Yeah. So, but, you know, there's, there's nothing inherently unhealthy about those things for certain individuals or personality types.
44:53
So I guess, again, my question is, how do you make sure that you weren't stomping on the right to life, individual choices and liberty of the people who are genuinely just like, yeah, this is how I feel.
45:12
And I don't, you know, it's not a problem. It's just, you know, and if anything, what you're doing is further cementing the way some people may feel.
45:23
Well, I'm hoping that my approach doesn't cement, doesn't like sort of isolate those people. I think it's what I'm hoping for.
45:32
But again, some of them may want to be isolated. They don't want that help. They don't want to be like, you now have an appointment with the school counselor, where they go in there and the next thing you know, they're like, well, see, exactly. I have a distaste for authority and now here they are shoving me into a room with someone trying to force me to talk about stuff. And I've got nothing to talk to you about. And so you've now furthered that as opposed to helping with that, right?
46:01
Right. And I think when that happens, that happens because you are focusing in, you know, putting a touch point of, you know, if they're quiet, if they are, they have a disdain for authority and things like that.
46:18
But their behavior isn't threatening to anybody else or they're not – they are – and again, this is sort of where you have your own biases being put upon somebody else, right?
46:35
Sure.
46:36
And so the teacher may not necessarily agree with that or the other students might necessarily not agree with that.
46:44
But what we are trying to break away from is judging upon your own internal biases and looking more at is this individual showing signs of struggling, right?
47:00
Right. So, you know, if you are perfectly content, just sort of being a quiet kid doing your work again, I may want to just have a touch point and just say like, hey, how are you doing? All right. You're like doing fine.
47:14
okay like right like you it's not everything just because they're quiet or just because they have a
47:23
certain political view or they're part of a certain religion means that there is there is a
47:30
an element of causation right like there's a pathway because you you have attached yourself
47:36
to this you are going to then for do x right and that's that's breaking that logic sort of
47:44
pathway for people is that your own biases get put into that. And with behavioral threat assessment
47:51
and with looking at behavior, what you are trying to do is trying to make sure that those individuals
47:57
along the way know that if there is an issue or if they are struggling, or if people around them
48:04
think that they are struggling, that there are avenues for them to express that.
48:10
Right. And expanding sort of the elements of what goes into that of that concern.
48:22
And so one of the big things that we've done, that we've moved away from, is when we have institutions that want to implement behavioral threat assessment, typically schools, we tell them do not, under any circumstances, call it the behavioral threat assessment team.
48:42
right because again the same framing sort of thing with random acts of violence and what it does
48:51
when you say that you have a behavioral threat assessment team and you want people to come that
48:56
see threatening behavior they're going to wait until there's a threatening behavior
49:00
right and that is often too late so we've actually had a lot of success with calling them care teams
49:08
where it broadens out what sort of goes into that.
49:17
So it could be the breakup with a boyfriend and girlfriend.
49:20
Just a touch point.
49:21
You doing all right?
49:21
You need any help to get you through this little tough time?
49:24
Just let me know.
49:26
The death of a grandfather, same thing.
49:29
Being kicked off the soccer team or just quitting
49:32
and thinking that that was a little bit unusual
49:35
and just wanting to see if everything is okay.
49:38
Like that goes into a care team.
49:40
That doesn't necessarily translate into a behavioral threat assessment team, right?
49:45
And I think part of, even though I use targeted violence and terrorism prevention in the company name,
49:53
because I decided that that was kind of like the worst case end factor.
49:58
using sort of looking more at behaviors, using the term care team, those types of things,
50:07
it's multidisciplinary. So I don't necessarily know if that individual who's struggling that
50:12
sort of has been left to sort of have those struggles fester is going to go off into substance
50:18
abuse. I don't know if they're going to go off into depression and potential suicide. I don't
50:24
know if they're going to go into violence. And quite frankly, like it's not for me to say that
50:30
certain behaviors that you can't have like all three, right. And that there isn't a, you know,
50:37
that I'm only, this only applies to, to one thing. When we instituted, um, some of these care teams,
50:45
um, for the purpose of sort of recognizing, you know, escalation of behaviors to, to potential
50:53
violence. One of the groups that we brought in was bus drivers, right? The school bus drivers.
51:00
And what they ended up finding, like the actual active proactive intervention or intercessions
51:09
that were done was there was a family who the kid was getting picked up and dropped off at a
51:16
different spot all of a sudden. And he was wearing the same clothes to school every day and things
51:22
like that. Sure enough, there was sort of like some substance abuse that was happening at the
51:28
house and he wasn't staying there. Didn't have anything to do with targeted violence, right?
51:32
He wasn't violent, right? Just there's some family struggles. And we were, by doing that proactive,
51:40
having that proactive sort of a broad approach towards it, they were able to get that family
51:45
some help. Same thing. I found another kid in another district coming to the bus stop,
51:50
The back of the car is filled with, you know, mattresses and blankets and everything else.
51:56
Sure enough, they check it out.
51:58
The family's been evicted from their apartment.
52:00
All right.
52:01
Again, has nothing to do with violence, but sort of left.
52:04
but these people are in need, right? And there are assistance programs for those individuals that
52:10
they may not be aware of or they could take advantage of. And so you really sort of broaden
52:19
people's scope of what it is that you're actually trying to do. What you are trying to do is sort of
52:26
break that system of care that we have where it's hyper-specialized and has these benchmarks and
52:33
thresholds for qualification for action and creating more of a concept of care where you are
52:40
getting to, you're going way upstream and taking care of those seemingly one-off innocuous events
52:49
so that it doesn't become sort of a death by a thousand paper cuts and the ball starts rolling
52:53
and you're trying to catch up. And as you have to catch up, you have to have stronger and stronger
52:59
and stronger intervention sort of methodologies.
53:03
And we are trying to have sort of make it almost as easy as possible
53:08
to get individuals the help that they need that may not even have to go to
53:14
or aren't even contemplating violence.
53:19
I would imagine the success of these programs depends a lot on what data is collected
53:24
and how that's analyzed.
53:26
Yeah.
53:26
so if you have these bus drivers or delivery drivers making these reports who actually
53:33
analyzes that on the other end determines if that's a real threat or not and do you foresee
53:38
like ai becoming a part of this in the future and analyzing these threats i yeah so
53:45
So as an expert in the field, I, I, I say no, right.
53:58
I say no.
53:59
As an expert in the field, I also say they will do it because it is a path of least resistance,
54:07
right?
54:09
When you started talking about data points and things like that, that is one of the biggest
54:13
hurdles psychologically that I have with sort of my audiences is ROI. So I talk about value and how
54:23
protection is sort of overvalued. One of the things I try to explain to my audiences is that
54:29
we as human beings are terrible, like literally dog shit at assessing value. It's the reason why
54:38
the Price is Right has been on the air for so long
54:42
is because it's a never-ending loop
54:44
of people who have no idea
54:47
what an all-expensive paid trip to Cancun is worth
54:51
compared to a 14-cubic-foot refrigerator
54:56
or a 56-inch TV.
54:57
We have no clue.
54:58
We have no barometer of how to do that.
55:03
And so when you have that subjectivity,
55:05
um data also has a level of subjectivity and so prevention has a very difficult term way of
55:15
collecting sort of tangible quantitative data that says you know this is this is working there's a lot
55:24
of qualitative data you can poll people and they can say yeah this feel like i feel way safer with
55:32
this methodology or I feel a part of something when I'm here or I enjoy being here and I feel
55:38
totally safe. But it's like, what kind of data point can you put into an Excel spreadsheet
55:44
with that? And so what you have with these protection measures and response measures is
55:52
you have an actual cost. You believe that if you spend $250,000 or $1 million or $2 million
56:03
on response or protection measures, that you are somehow getting that return on investment.
56:13
I would say that that's highly dubious and nebulous at best because what metric are you
56:20
using to validate that data right well nothing happened today so therefore it's working
56:28
right like i don't i don't see the equivalency um and so no and without like a constant steady stream
56:37
of you know violent actions in a certain area right we'll say a school uh how do you judge that
56:48
It was coined random acts of violence. And at the end of the day, the reason for that is not necessarily because it's random. It's because it's infrequent.
57:00
Right. Low probability, high consequence.
57:04
Right. Like you're looking at probably needing 100 years worth of data to get to a point where you could statistically analyze that in a method that would be kind of valuable, I think. And that's probably not doable.
57:23
My concern with AI use is exactly one and only one thing, is that takes the care out of it.
57:33
It is a cold, calculating machine.
57:36
It doesn't care about circumstance.
57:38
It doesn't care about external factors.
57:42
You can plug them in and assign them a weighted score, but that is not the same as a human being being able to sit there and understand why, when, how.
57:53
But I'm sure someone would argue that it takes out the bias and feelings out of it as well.
57:58
Absolutely. And I think one of the problems that I've sort of seen when I'm on these panels with some of the AI people and things like that has been this thing around like contextual intelligence.
58:11
And that, you know, you talk about AI with it's cold calculating data sort of probabilities and things like that.
58:20
And going back to sort of our anthropological human sort of things, we're taking in eye movements, we're taking in, you know, how you're dressed, how you smell, just that sixth sense.
58:33
Like those are, those are things that's contextual intelligence, right?
58:39
There was a great sort of example that I heard about, you know, the difference between having like a conductor on a train and having just sort of like, you know, a bot sort of machine or something like that, handing out tickets.
58:56
and they kind of came up with a scenario where you,
59:00
you have a tourist who accidentally just gets on the wrong train.
59:04
Right.
59:06
And you can go to the conduct that tourist can go to the conductor and say Hey I trying to get to X spot Or maybe they don speak English or you having a tough time
59:17
You're using Google Translate or something like that to try and explain what happened.
59:23
A human being sort of can evaluate your body language and everything else and sort of give you the benefit of the doubt.
59:29
that you're probably not there to sort of scam the train company or anything like that.
59:36
And they probably will take your ticket, they'll sign it,
59:39
and they'll probably give you instructions,
59:40
hey, just get off at the next stop, get on the train that's going the other way,
59:45
show the conductor this ticket, and you'll be fine.
59:49
I don't think that AI has that necessarily capability.
59:53
No, it doesn't.
59:54
And when you have something as concerning or as important as sort of what we've been talking about, I think that there is a real pause that people have to do with creating technological solutions to psychological problems.
1:00:17
and an over-reliance on that AI is going to give you the right answer
1:00:26
or give you the correct contextual intelligence for that report
1:00:32
that you then are obligated to then act upon.
1:00:38
And that runs into a lot of legal stuff.
1:00:42
hey, something did happen and AI told you you needed to act and you didn't because of your contextual intelligence.
1:00:51
Now you're going to get sued.
1:00:53
All right.
1:00:54
AI told you to do something.
1:00:56
You did it because it didn't have contextual intelligence.
1:01:00
And now you're getting sued again because nothing did happen.
1:01:03
And so I really have, there is definitely a very big disconnect because it, again, it sounds logical to have this very powerful sort of technological thing that can sort of help you.
1:01:22
But without having sort of an end goal to work back from of why you want to implement it, you're sort of letting it go to its own devices.
1:01:35
And you are sort of relinquishing your responsibility and your control to this thing and just operating as sort of like its servant rather than it being your servant.
1:01:49
and I think that's really a highly dangerous thing especially within security that that we do and I
1:01:57
think one of the things when we talk about sort of civil liberties and the importance of that
1:02:01
I do really think that sort of elevating or balancing out sort of that that three-pronged
1:02:10
holistic security approach of of prevention protection and and preparedness
1:02:16
basically helps you with keeping civil liberties. Because again, if you focus more on protection,
1:02:25
that is more surveillance, right? That's more, we got to see what you're posting. We got to see
1:02:32
what you're looking up online. We got to see where you're going and everything else. And it sort of
1:02:38
lends itself to that because, oh, if we don't know where these attacks are going to happen or
1:02:45
who's going to be in them. We have to have these dossiers basically on everybody and we have to run
1:02:52
it through our AI simulators or we have to, right. And so we're going to get out that.
1:02:58
Right. Right. So you can sort of see how like, okay, if we, if we create, if we balanced it out
1:03:05
where we had, you know, a very broad view of, of what we are looking for, we create these sort of
1:03:14
environments where people are reporting things not for sort of like retribution or some type of
1:03:22
punishment to be put in, but more that, hey, we've all got sort of skin in the game and I don't want
1:03:29
to see you suffering or in pain just as much as I hope that you don't want to see me in pain.
1:03:35
And I was just like, yeah. Coming from a place of empathy as opposed to, you know, again, we,
1:03:42
the second you start bringing up terms like you know violence and terrorism prevention right uh
1:03:50
at least for me the second that comes up uh a lot of my empathy starts to diminish
1:04:00
yeah i just heard the words i don't even know what we're going to talk about yet but
1:04:04
that empathy for whoever this target is right we'll just call it a target it doesn't mean like
1:04:11
it's a target. It's just a person that is, you know, of focus, right? Area of focus instead of
1:04:19
target. My empathy is already diminished just because I've heard the words violence and terrorism
1:04:25
in there and radicalized. Yeah, exactly. Radicalized violence, terrorism, all of these things take,
1:04:32
again, it is psychological, right? And the psychological point of it is you start to hear
1:04:37
those things and that empathy diminishes, right? Yeah. And we also have this thing with empathy
1:04:43
that's kind of interesting where we'll, if you have substance abuse or if you are depressed or
1:04:49
something like that, we have actually a tremendous amount of empathy for those individuals, right?
1:04:53
Like we will go sort of to the ends of the earth to try and help those people because we know that
1:05:01
they are struggling, right? When you start seeing people who are radicalized or have their tinfoil
1:05:07
hats or are, you know, causing, you know, causing sort of, you know, concerning behavior
1:05:18
or disturbances or getting more and more agitated and things like that.
1:05:23
We kind of go like, okay, like Paul, like get away from me.
1:05:27
Right.
1:05:27
Like we don't have that, that, that same empathy.
1:05:31
And I think the reason why we don't is we don't see those signs as signs of struggling and calls for help that we do with others, right?
1:05:45
And so there's a misinterpretation and there's a, there is a line of, of psychological thought that, that, you know, a lot of these behaviors, um, are very similar to those with suicidal ideation where individuals with suicidal ideation will sort of test the waters to see what they, what they can get away with and who's going to come to their aid.
1:06:06
Right And there there are people who believe that subconsciously because these individuals kind of know the path that they on is kind of destructive or is taken over their lives and they don know how to separate from it that they begin to do these
1:06:24
sort of like spikes in behavior that sort of, they are calls for help of like, Hey, this is crazy,
1:06:32
isn't it? It's crazy. I'm saying this, it's crazy that I'm doing this. Aren't you going to come and
1:06:38
ask me about what I am doing. Right. And when we don't, when we isolate and when we push away,
1:06:48
that, that tells the subconscious, okay, I didn't, I didn't cross that, that threshold. I didn't hit
1:06:55
that. I didn't break through that ceiling. So I have to go up even more. Right. And I have to get
1:07:01
more at people, more agitated. I have to get people more concerned. I have to get people
1:07:06
more afraid before they go and do something. And I think that there's that snowballing effect where
1:07:14
with each elevation in behavior, you actually become more and more isolated because people
1:07:20
are not interpreting those as calls for help. They're interpreting them as sort of through
1:07:26
their own biases as somebody who's a nutcase or hopeless or something like that.
1:07:32
man no i i like it so i think we're getting close to a good place to wrap up although i think we
1:07:42
could probably spend another you know hour and a half doing this i i have you know plenty uh but
1:07:49
being cognizant of time as well um i do think it's it's a wonderful approach right i think
1:07:55
flipping the script and really looking at like how do we get people help how do we how do we
1:08:02
show them that there are roads they can go down, et cetera, is of paramount importance,
1:08:08
right?
1:08:08
Across the board, I would say.
1:08:11
And, you know, I will go back to that statement about community policing.
1:08:15
It's almost like we're, you know, we've militarized the police and now we have to fill the gap
1:08:20
that used to be community policing with, you know, privatized entities.
1:08:25
I still think they should undo that.
1:08:28
But, hey, you know, that's for policymakers who are-
1:08:32
want to bring back nightsticks and blackjack i i honestly i'd take it over plate carriers and 13
1:08:39
yeah boots so well yeah it kind of goes to the i you know i've gone to um there's an interesting
1:08:44
thing with with security so that i use this example um when i talk about you know that that
1:08:52
liquor store example i do a contrast with it where um if you go on college campuses you'll see sort of
1:09:00
like these blue emergency towers, these sort of like telephone booths kind of things. And
1:09:06
most colleges now have an app for all of their students to sort of download and you can
1:09:13
have it geolocate you. If you're being chased, you know, they can find out, you know, where
1:09:19
you're running to. Some of them, you can live text an actual officer if you're noticing something.
1:09:26
um some have even gone so far as to allow students to post put up their their um school schedule so
1:09:34
like if you're on the third floor behind one corner and room 327 if you send out an alert
1:09:40
instead of it just being the building and having them kind of like trying to figure out where you
1:09:45
are it'll go oh well there's a high likelihood that he's in room 327 because on wednesdays from
1:09:51
11 to 1, this is where he's going to be. So by far and away, way superior than just this
1:09:58
standalone sort of phone thing, completely obsolete. And so a lot of colleges were like,
1:10:07
all right, it's obsolete. We've moved forward in technology. We're going to take these things out.
1:10:11
And the students basically revolted that the college or the university was not taking their
1:10:20
safety seriously that they're like by removing these things like what do you expect us to do if
1:10:28
we see something what do you expect us to do right there's like a weird visual thing that was with
1:10:34
them that had a very strong narrative and you said it makes people feel safe but there's also the fact
1:10:41
that look you know you're you're cruising around you've got your phone in your pocket it's locked
1:10:47
and something starts to occur and I see that blue pole 30 feet away,
1:10:53
which is going to be faster?
1:10:55
Unlocking my phone, opening the app, putting in the details
1:10:58
or pressing a button or running and hitting that panic button.
1:11:03
And so, you know, I can't fault them for that.
1:11:07
No, and I think, and I don't know either,
1:11:10
but I use that as sort of like this weird paradox of security narratives, right?
1:11:16
You see something that seemingly is obsolete but has a huge amount of importance as to the narrative of how you feel within that space.
1:11:28
You go into the liquor store and you have the direct opposite.
1:11:33
Right. And I think that paradox is really interesting and is something that I don't think a lot of security people give a lot of credence to or don't elevate the value of those sort of more intangible things that we operate more on that sort of logical and that people will follow a reasonable path and things like that.
1:12:03
Yeah, no, we're definitely emotionally driven beings without question.
1:12:11
Mm-hmm.
1:12:12
Yeah.
1:12:12
I do, but still, I want to reiterate, I do think the approach you're taking is a good one, right?
1:12:19
Obviously, there are concerns.
1:12:21
Anytime you start talking about these types of things, it conjures up the DHS initiative with the same acronym.
1:12:30
Absolutely.
1:12:30
And the CP3 and in, I think you'd be hard pressed to find an individual that didn't come to the conclusion that those were abjectly not successful as well as potentially creating an environment where that might be found where it doesn't exist, I guess, right?
1:12:57
individual rights, liberties have to be accommodated. You're taking it from a privatized
1:13:03
standpoint of education and how to spot and how to offer assistance, how to identify
1:13:10
what can be done prior to this becoming an event And I think that admirable I really do Yeah Knowing a lot of the people that were in CP3 and having dealt with them and things like that and DHS as a whole the giantness of DHS
1:13:31
And again, this kind of goes to what we were talking about, sort of like Leighton's error of how the system can sort of create more problems for itself than what it's trying to do.
1:13:44
I know a lot of the people at CP3 and worked with them for a while.
1:13:51
That shift in mentality, this is a sort of a break off of that.
1:13:56
There were very dedicated people that were in that unit that were getting people sort of on board with this train.
1:14:05
what it had been before it got labeled CP3 and the hiccups and the things that sort of got it in hot water and in trouble.
1:14:16
Hiccups.
1:14:19
There's a term for it.
1:14:21
There's a term.
1:14:23
I would have used a different.
1:14:24
Yeah.
1:14:25
But we've kind of gone through sort of how the way in which you frame it, right?
1:14:33
And when I talk to law enforcement, I do give them a little bit of a leash because on the side of their cars, it says protect and serve, not prevent and serve, right?
1:14:44
Their lane is very defined.
1:14:51
And their roles within that lane, they have to operate within that system, right?
1:14:58
And if that system is too rigid for the complexities of the prevention mission, then so be it.
1:15:08
But what you don't want to do is try to insert that square peg in a round hole and have them do something that they are not designed to do.
1:15:19
Or properly trained for.
1:15:20
Right.
1:15:21
And so, you know, I hope that people are getting that this approach and this philosophy is palatable, far more palatable to people, that people see a value to it.
1:15:41
And that, you know, they would like more institutions and more of their community entities and things like that to look at developing or augmenting this approach rather than sort of falling back on sort of like, well, if it's violence, then it must be for the police.
1:16:07
Or if it's a mental health issue, it must be just for them, right?
1:16:10
And so there's a little bit, it's not as simple as that.
1:16:16
Awesome.
1:16:17
Awesome.
1:16:18
All right.
1:16:19
Well, this has been a great session.
1:16:20
We like to ask our guests one question.
1:16:23
We prepped you for it beforehand.
1:16:24
No gotchas.
1:16:26
And what that is, is throughout our lives, you know, we encounter an individual that has a great impact on our lives.
1:16:33
Could be a sixth grade science teacher, could be an author, historical figure, could be mom, whatever it is.
1:16:40
So who would you like to give a shout out to?
1:16:43
I'd like to give a shout out to actually, if I could take some artistic liberty and shout out to three people that are all kind of in the same realm.
1:16:54
Frank Luntz, George Lakoff, and Rory Sutherland.
1:16:59
All three of those men, when I got introduced to them, they all are sort of in the language framing thing.
1:17:08
Some of them are more political. Some of them are more social. Some of them are more business. But really what it did was it really opened up my eyes to how just reframing certain words and things like that changes the context of everything.
1:17:24
Right. And whether it's changing estate tax to death tax or whether it's changing, you know, the context of I heard this one place, Indian Indian Street Food Cafe.
1:17:42
And all they had to do was because they had all these like expensive Indian teas and coffees and things like that.
1:17:50
nobody was coming in for that. So they just put Indian street food and cafe, and it completely
1:17:57
changed the context of everything. And so much of what I do, as you've sort of found out, is trying
1:18:04
to rearrange and reframe the things to look at problems and see if the solution is just a
1:18:11
contextual thing, rather than something that, you know, as we've talked about, has like a
1:18:18
technological solution to a psychological problem. And so those three guys and their writings and
1:18:25
their things have paid huge dividends in what I do. Awesome. Awesome. All right. And then let's go
1:18:34
ahead and plug you. Where can people find you? What do you have going on? What are you working on?
1:18:39
So I can be found at tvtpsolutions.com. So that stands for targeted violence, terrorism prevention.
1:18:45
pretty much everything that we do is on the website so you know there's a contact page they
1:18:51
can contact me and we can start working on what the best fit is for you if it's sort of a virtual
1:18:57
training or if it's an all-day training if it's some type of consulting service what have you we
1:19:03
also have developed a bunch of these sort of like educational videos to help people sort of
1:19:08
understand our approach to to prevention and behavioral threat assessment and then all of
1:19:14
our interviews that I've been doing. So this interview will be up there when it goes live.
1:19:20
And then, you know, I highly encourage anyone who's interested or in talking about this or
1:19:27
wants to get in touch with us to please do so. Awesome. Awesome. Well, thank you very much for
1:19:35
giving us some of your time and thank you for giving us some of your time. We really appreciate
1:19:40
it. You know where to find us. We're everywhere. Uh, we are on fountain.fm now. Go check us
1:19:47
out there. It's basically Spotify with a value for value approach. It's podcast two. Oh,
1:19:52
check it out. Um, and remember wherever you are, whenever you're watching this,
1:20:02
have an amazing day. Thanks for coming by Robert. See everybody. Thank you.
1:20:10
Thank you.