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Riley Gaines (2024) - Fighting for Female Sports: A Swimmer's Journey · The Joe Rogan Recap

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Welcome to the Joe Rogan recap. Today we're doing a deep dive
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into a really talked about conversation from the Jay Rogan
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Experience. That's right, Episode Hashtag
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2115 featuring Riley Gaines. Riley Gaines.
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Yeah, she's a former college swimmer, and she shared her
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story. Quite An Unexpected Journey
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really, from athlete to advocate.
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Advocate for women's sports and, well, what she calls sanity.
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Exactly. So we'll get into her background
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as a swimmer her whole life, basically.
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And then the events surrounding Leah Thomas, the transgender
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swimmer competing in the women's category, that's really the core
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of it. Yeah, her initial confusion,
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then her activism and sort of the wider implications she sees.
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Our goal here is to really unpack what she talked about,
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the key moments from her perspective, just to give you a
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clear understanding of this significant and let's face it,
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pretty debated topic. It definitely is.
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OK, so let's start with Riley's background.
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She comes from a pretty athletic family.
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Doesn't. She absolutely.
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Her dad played in the NFL, her mom played D1 softball, and her
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siblings were involved in college sports, too.
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So yeah, sports were, you know, a massive part of her life
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growing up. And swimming specifically.
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She started super young. Age 4 apparently, and then
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basically the next 18 years were dedicated to it right through
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college at the University of Kentucky.
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That's serious dedication. Think about the training.
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Yeah, the early mornings, the sacrifices, yeah, it's intense
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to get to that level. She talked about swimming like
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10 miles a day, six hours in the pool.
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Wow. And she was good.
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She felt Kentucky was the right place for her.
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Yeah, she seemed to thrive there, had a good sophomore
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year, then junior year she wins an individual SEC title and.
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Plays seventh national. And internationally, yeah, and
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really lit a fire under her. Apparently she was aiming for a
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national title in her senior year.
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That was the goal. But then things got complicated
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for everyone with COVID, right? That must have hit training
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hard. Hugely disruptive pools, closed,
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finding places to train, she mentioned, swimming in a lake,
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dealing with snakes, all sorts of stuff.
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Yeah, you got to adapt. Definitely shows that athlete
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perseverance, right? And even when they got back,
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there were protocols, mask mandates even for swimmers
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sometimes, apparently. Weird, but she kept her focus on
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senior year. Seems like it.
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But then, as that senior year gets going, this swimmer, Leah
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Thomas from Penn, starts just. Right, putting up times way
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faster than expected across different freestyle events.
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And this wasn't someone Riley or her teammates really knew in
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that top tier before it was a sudden emergence.
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That's where things start getting complicated.
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The performance jump was, well, significant.
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Very. Significant.
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I mean, in swimming races are decided by tiny fractions of a
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second. To suddenly see these huge
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margins across different distances is unusual, to say the
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least at that level. And then the key piece to
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information comes out. Exactly that.
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Leah Thomas had competed for three years on the University of
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Pennsylvania's men's team, as Will Thomas.
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And the ranking difference was stark, like 400 and 62nd in
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men's events versus suddenly number one in women's.
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Yeah, that specific #460 second versus leading the nation, that
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really frames the concern Riley and others had.
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It suggests a huge performance gap between the categories.
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So Riley's initial thought and her teammates was that the NCAA
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would see this and, you know, address the competitive balance
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issue. That was their assumption, yeah.
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They kind of expected the governing body to step in.
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But that didn't happen initially.
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No, just three weeks before the national championships, the NCAA
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put out a statement basically confirming Leah Thomas was
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eligible to compete in the women's events.
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Based on what policy at that time?
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Well, the policy then required 12 months of hormone replacement
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therapy HRT, but crucially, it didn't specify any particular
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testosterone level thresholds. OK, so just the time on HRT was
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the main factor. That was the rule they were
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operating under at that specific moment.
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The idea generally with HRT rules is to mitigate advantages
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from male puberty, but you know how effective that is and what
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the right levels are. That's still debated.
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And those rules have changed since, haven't they?
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The NCAA kind of stepped back. They did.
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They later decided to phase out that blanket policy and
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basically said okay, each sports governing body needs to figure
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this out for themselves. So for swimming, that's World
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Aquatics, or FINA as it used to be called.
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Right. And World Aquatics brought in a
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new policy. Essentially, it says individuals
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who've gone through male puberty cannot compete in women's
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categories. With one exception.
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Yeah, an exception if the transition happened before age
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12, which Riley points out she still finds unsatisfactory.
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She believes the category should be just for biological females
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period, because of the inherent physical differences.
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That's her core position and she contrasts this with other sports
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like she mentioned soccer, where she says it's more based on self
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identification. So you have this patchwork of
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different rules across sports now.
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Exactly, which highlights how tricky it is to find an approach
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everyone agrees on, balancing inclusion with what many see as
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fairness and competition. It's a fundamental clash.
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So back to the championships. The atmosphere sounds like it
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was really charged. Yeah, Riley described getting
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instructions like treat Leah Thomas as a woman, but then
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another athlete, Isaac Hennig, who was transitioning from
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female to male. Who swam for Yale, right, and
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was still competing in the women's category but using male
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pronouns. Right, Riley said.
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They were told to treat him as a man.
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So this kind of highlights the complexity and what Riley felt
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were inconsistencies. And then there's the visual
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aspect. She mentioned a six foot 4
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athlete, physically male, competing against women in
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swimsuits. She described that as striking,
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and you can understand how that might cause discomfort or unease
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for the other swimmers, regardless of policy.
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The physical differences are just.
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Visible, very visible. And that feeds into the
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perception of a competitive advantage, you know, beyond just
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hormone levels. What was the crowd like?
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According to her, it was mixed. Some silence, some booing.
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There were activists there too, on both sides, trans rights
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advocates and people supporting women's sports specifically.
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And she heard someone yell he's a cheater.
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Yeah, she said. That shout from the stands
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really resonated with her at Like It voice, something many
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were thinking but not saying. Wow, intense.
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She also mentioned a specific team meeting.
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A training session for the Kentucky team on using share
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pronouns for Thomas. Which, as a college senior being
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mandated pronoun usage like that probably felt odd.
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It suggests, you know a real institutional push to align with
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a specific viewpoint. Some might see it as
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prioritizing ideology within the team.
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And then the locker room situation, teammates
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uncomfortable sharing space scene, male anatomy.
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What was the university's response, according to Riley?
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Her account is that the university basically offered
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counseling resources to the teammates who felt
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uncomfortable. So counseling for feeling
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uncomfortable rather than addressing the situation causing
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the discomfort. That's how Riley perceived it,
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yes. Like the focus was on managing
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the reaction of the female swimmers.
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Navigating the stuff is obviously tough for
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universities, balancing everyone's needs.
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She also brought up something about Thomas's personal life.
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Yeah, she mentioned hearing from teammates, and maybe publicly
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too, that Thomas was reportedly dating women at the time.
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For Riley, the seemed to raise more questions about the
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underlying reality being acknowledged.
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OK, but the real flashpoint seems to have been the trophy
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presentation. Definitely sounds like it.
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She tied for fifth place with comas in the 200 freestyle. 2
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swimmers, 5th place. But only one trophy.
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Only one trophy physically there on the podium, and according to
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Riley, an NCAA official gave it to Thomas saying it was for
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photo optics. For the picture?
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Seriously. That's what she says she was
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told, and that she could pose with it, but Thomas would take
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it home and Riley's would be mailed to her later.
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Oh wow, I can absolutely see how that would feel.
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Deeply unfair. It seemed to crystallize
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everything for her, that moment, feeling like the recognition
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wasn't equal, that the whole thing felt like a well, she used
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the word farce. And that's when she decided she
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had to speak out. That was the catalyst, yes.
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Feeling like she was participating in something that
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wasn't right, and then that trophy incident pushed her over
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the edge. Takes guts to do that,
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especially in such a hot topic. Absolutely, and she did start
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getting media attention pretty quickly.
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But then the university stepped in.
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Yeah, she said. A new rule came down.
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All media requests had to be routed through the sports
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information director, Sid. Standard procedure to control
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the message maybe? It often is, yeah.
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When universities face potentially controversial
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issues, they tend to try and manage the narrative.
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Interestingly, she made a distinction.
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She said her experience with the athletic department at Kentucky
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was actually positive. Right.
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She felt the pressure and the silencing attempts came more
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from the compliance side, the academic side of the university.
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Different priorities, maybe Athletics focused on
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competition, compliance focused on rules and liability.
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Could be alleges some pretty strong stuff from that side
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though, like being told signing her scholarship meant she gave
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away her right to speak freely. Really.
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That sounds questionable. And warnings about career
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repercussions, being labeled transphobic if they spoke out.
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That creates a chilling effect, surely makes athletes afraid to
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voice concerns. It highlights that power
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imbalance, doesn't it, between athletes and the institutions
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they represent. And then there was that claim
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about being told they'd be responsible for harm.
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Yeah, this was a heavy one. She alleges they were told
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they'd be held responsible if any transgender individuals were
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harmed, including self harm or suicide, if the female athletes
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weren't perceived as kind and inclusive.
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Wow. She called that emotional
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blackmail and gaslighting. Strong words, definitely.
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She clearly felt it was a way to manipulate them into silence by
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putting an immense unfair burden on them.
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She compared it to something else, the COVID vaccine
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mandates. Yeah, she drew a parallel,
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apparently as team captain, she'd faced pressure over the
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university's vaccine policy earlier, but had stood her
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ground. So maybe that experience gave
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her some backbone for this fight too.
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It's possible having navigated that kind of institutional
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pressure before might have strengthened her resolve this
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time around. Now she uses some really strong
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language to describe the broader climate around this, calling it
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a cult. Yeah, she characterizes the
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discourse, particularly the language used like life saving,
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gender affirming care or sex reassignment surgery, as almost
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cult like. She critiques these terms
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feeling they obscure or deny what she sees as biological
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reality. She.
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Doesn't like the term biological woman either, finds it
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redundant. Right, because for her, woman
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implies biology, and she makes a personal choice.
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She says to use male pronouns for Leah Thomas based on that
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conviction. And this leads her to advocate
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for actually defining woman in law.
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Exactly. She sees a need for legal
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clarity, especially for things like sports, and notes that
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several states have passed laws attempting to do just that.
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She also mentioned an imbalance in activism.
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Yeah, she observes that the voices advocating for trans
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inclusion in women's sports seem very organized and vocal,
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whereas people on the other side might maybe, you know, busy with
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life, less organized, maybe hesitant to speak up.
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Then she broadened out her critique quite a bit, talked
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about a zombie disease, maybe linked to Marxism or socialism.
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Yeah, her commentary definitely expanded there.
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She's connecting her specific experiences in sports to much
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larger anxieties she has about societal trends and political
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ideologies. It's a particular worldview
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she's expressing. Concerns about planned
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destruction of the country. Border security.
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Using social issues for financial agendas.
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Right. She's weaving a larger narrative
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there, linking issues like gender identity politics to her
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concerns about the nation's overall direction and the
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motivations she perceives behind certain policies.
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And she feels there are active efforts to silence people who
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question these things. She mentioned an incident at a
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university. San Francisco State University,
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Yeah. She described A protest where
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she felt she was effectively held hostage, barricaded in a
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room for hours. And she alleged the university
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administration seemed to side with the protesters.
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That's a serious accusation. If true, it raises huge
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questions about free speech and safety on campus.
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Definitely, her account paints a picture of a very hostile
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environment for dissentive use. And this feeds into her broader
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distrust of institutions, DOJ, courts, feeling they're corrupt
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or too tiered. Yeah, that seems to be her take
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away. A significant loss of faith in
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the fairness and integrity of major institutions, coupled with
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a call for stronger leadership. She even got banned from
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Twitter, she said. For stating there are two sexes
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according to her, which just shows how contentious even basic
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biological statements have become on some platforms.
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Her concerns go even further, touching on discussions around
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minor attracted persons potentially normalizing
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pedophilia. Yes, she draws a line connecting
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these different social debates, viewing them all through a lens
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of moral concern. Informed by her biblical
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worldview, she feels affirming what she sees as delusions is
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fundamentally wrong, even evil. But despite all this negativity
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she perceives, she's focused on action, trying to make change.
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Very much so. She talks about turning lemons
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into lemonade, using these bad experiences to fuel positive
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action, pointing to the fairness and women's sports bills pass in
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various states as progress. Where does she get the strength?
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She mentioned sports. Yeah, she credits the
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discipline, the resolve, the critical thinking learned
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through years of high level competition.
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That, plus strong family support and her faith, seemed to be her
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anchors. And she says others are reaching
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out now. Parents.
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Coaches. Increasingly so, yeah.
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Sharing similar concerns, she told a story about a male high
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school basketball player allegedly injuring 3 girls in a
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game. These kinds of incidents fuel
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the debate about safety and fairness.
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She had a run in with Keith Olbermann on social media too.
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Apparently, yes, he criticized her pretty harshly, she said.
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But she seems to push back quite firmly, not afraid to engage
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with critics. So her main goal is
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transparency, fairness in sports, but maybe broader too.
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Seems like it transparency clear rules based on what she sees as
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reality, and she pushes back against what she calls the
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Oppression Olympics, where she feels trans identity is
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sometimes positioned to override all other considerations,
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including female rights. Like in women's prisons?
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Yeah, putting biological males there.
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That's another area of concern she raised.
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Yeah. Safety, privacy, the inherent
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differences between biological sexes and vulnerable settings.
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She distinguishes sharply between women entering male
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spaces versus males entering female spaces.
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She testified before Congress too, right?
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Yes, about the importance of recognizing biological
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differences. And she described getting a
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pretty dismissive response from one witness who apparently
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suggested women just need to learn how to lose more
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gracefully. Ouch, that sounds incredibly
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dismissive. It certainly highlights the deep
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divide and the kind of rhetoric involved.
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She's faced a lot of labels herself, transphobe, bigot, et
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cetera. How does she deal with that
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hate? Interestingly, she observes that
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a lot of the really vicious stuff online comes from
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anonymous accounts or people who aren't athletes.
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She kind of dismisses it as reflecting their own issues,
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contrasting it with mostly positive interactions she has in
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person. That's an interesting point
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about online versus real life. Yeah, the disconnect can be
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huge. She did.
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Say something surprising, though, about hoping for future
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science. Yeah, like maybe one day genetic
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engineering could allow for a full biological transition,
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uterus and all sort of speculative future looking
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thought. But she's wary of current tech
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platforms. Google AI.
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Very concerned about curated results.
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Potential bias, yes. She cited an example involving
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search results about transgender individuals breastfeeding,
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feeling the information presented was skewed.
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So a bottom line for her seems to be trans rights shouldn't
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negate existing rights, especially women's rights based
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on sex. That's the core argument,
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finding a balance that respects everyone without undermining
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what she sees as fundamental biological realities and the
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rights associated with them. Focus on facts.
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Ignore the name calling. And she hopes her speaking out
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encourages others. Yes.
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She wants people to wake up to what she calls nonsense, not
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just in sports but in other areas too, like the minor
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attracted persons discussion, which she sees as a dangerous
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progression. She also mentioned consumer
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power, choosing where you spend your money.
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Right, like finding all alternatives if companies don't
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align with your values. Referencing boycotts or shifts
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away from brands like Bud Light or platforms like Google,
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suggesting consumers can have an impact.
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And she's not stopping anytime soon.
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Doesn't sound like it. She seems fully committed to
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continuing this advocacy work. So Riley Gaines really laid out
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a powerful first hand account. It definitely forces you to
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grapple with these complex issues.
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Fairness, inclusion, biology and sports and where society is
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heading. Absolutely.
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Her journey from swimmer to activist is quite something and
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it really highlights the courage it takes to speak up on issues
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that are so deeply divisive and emotional.
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Yeah, it's a lot to think about. We encourage you, the listener,
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to Mull over what she shared, consider the different angles,
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maybe look into the policies and debates happening in your own
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sphere. Definitely this deep dive into
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Riley Gaines, his experience, her perspective, it really
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provides A crucial viewpoint and understanding, a major cultural
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conversation that's still very much unfolding.