Latest / The Noble Dram / The Noble Dram | Scotch for Starters: Barrels (Season 2 | Ep. 14)

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The Noble Dram | Scotch for Starters: Barrels (Season 2 | Ep. 14) · The Noble Dram

0:00
Gavin: Fresh off the still, new make spirit is aggressive, hot, and weird.
0:05
Aaron: You could say the barrel takes that crazy teenage spirit and turns it into a sophisticated adult.
0:12
Aaron: Exactly.
0:13
Aaron: You could say that's kind of like whiskey's puberty.
0:19
Gavin: I don't know.
0:19
Gavin: I tend to think of it more as therapy, but with oak.
1:12
Aaron: Yeah, we keep trying to come up with single episode ideas and then keep stumbling into these.
1:17
Aaron: It probably feels like three or four shows, right?
1:20
Aaron: Yep.
1:20
Aaron: Um, so tell them we're in the middle, right?
1:24
Aaron: So tell them where we've been, Gavin.
1:26
Gavin: So we started our little adventure in the malted side of things, or malted barley and the grains that make scotch.
1:36
Aaron: Yeah.
1:37
Aaron: So we talked last week a little bit about the differences between grains that go into bourbons and other whiskies and why scotch is different.
1:45
Aaron: Um, this kind of all started as a conversation with uh with the missus, who said, I don't understand why scotch is different.
1:53
Aaron: And we said, that's actually a very valid point.
1:56
Aaron: I bet somebody else also doesn't understand that.
1:58
Aaron: Sad news is they don't watch the show, so they'll never know.
2:01
Aaron: I don't know if your wife watches the show, but I'm not positive she does.
2:05
Aaron: I think she sees me enough during the regular day.
2:07
Aaron: She's like, I don't need another hour and plus of watching him during the day.
2:13
Gavin: Uh that's fair.
2:14
Gavin: My wife's the same way.
2:16
Gavin: I don't know.
2:17
Gavin: She doesn't like watching me either.
2:18
Gavin: Well, I get him.
2:18
Gavin: I know my wife doesn't watch the shows, but she'll watch the shorts, which are great.
2:22
Gavin: There you go.
2:22
Gavin: Yeah, it's something.
2:24
Gavin: Yeah.
2:24
Gavin: So my my daughter also likes the shorts.
2:27
Gavin: She likes how goofy we are.
2:28
Gavin: We get a lot of goofy shorts out of an episode.
2:31
Gavin: For sure.
2:32
Gavin: That's fine.
2:32
Gavin: For sure.
2:33
Gavin: That's fine.
2:33
Gavin: That's fine.
2:34
Gavin: All right.
2:34
Gavin: What are we talking about today, though?
2:36
Gavin: Today, we are talking barrels.
2:38
Gavin: We're gonna roll out the barrel for us tonight.
2:40
Gavin: We're gonna have a barrel of fun.
2:42
Gavin: Barrel of monkeys, actually.
2:44
Aaron: I that was like one of those games that I never understood what we were supposed to do with as a kid, but everybody had a set of barrel of monkeys.
2:53
Aaron: Um was the intent to make the longest chain?
2:56
Aaron: I think so.
2:57
Aaron: But they hooked together so like there was no challenge in it.
3:00
Aaron: They fall off.
3:01
Aaron: Did they?
3:02
Aaron: Yeah, I don't remember that.
3:03
Gavin: Yeah.
3:03
Gavin: We need to have barrel of monkeys.
3:06
Gavin: We're not playing barrel of monkey.
3:07
Gavin: We could do we could do a barrel episode with monkey shoulder.
3:10
Gavin: What we need is a glass of whiskey.
3:15
Aaron: And this would normally be the part where I ask Gavin to pour me a drink, but I got the short straw short straw straw.
3:21
Aaron: Did I win?
3:22
Aaron: Did I lose today?
3:23
Gavin: I I don't think there's any losing in the Noble Dram.
3:29
Aaron: There is.
3:30
Aaron: There is lots of whiskey and a number of people losing.
3:34
Aaron: Um all right, so tonight we're talking barrel.
3:38
Aaron: So part of what we wanted to do is come up with bottles of whiskey that had a fun twist in the barreling and maturation process.
3:47
Aaron: So tonight I picked Glenmorangie Nectar 16.
3:53
Aaron: The nectar.
3:55
Aaron: The urge to call this Nectar D'or is strong, but it's not.
4:01
Aaron: It's not strong or no, it's not it's not Nectar D'or.
4:04
Gavin: Oh, can you tell me the difference of why it's not?
4:08
Gavin: Yeah, I can.
4:09
Gavin: Okay.
4:10
Aaron: I'm not gonna do it yet because it's further down on my notes, but yeah, so I can't okay.
4:13
Aaron: Perfect.
4:14
Aaron: Sweet.
4:15
Aaron: All right, so fresh crack.
4:18
Aaron: Ooh.
4:20
Aaron: This them boys over at Glenn Bransy know how to cork a bottle, if you know what I mean.
4:26
Gavin: There's so many in you and those you could say about that.
4:29
Aaron: So nectar 16.
4:34
Aaron: This one clocks in at 46% ABV.
4:38
Aaron: For those who are mathematically so inclined, that puts us at 92 proof.
4:44
Aaron: 92 and comes in at $78 MSRP.
4:50
Aaron: Oh, I did a little digging.
4:52
Aaron: That's part of my internet fun.
4:54
Aaron: All right, so the reason we talked about this, hearkening a bit to Nectar D'or, this is the second rendition of the revision, the second generation of Nectar D'or.
5:07
Aaron: So Gen 2.
5:08
Aaron: Gen 2 Nectar.
5:10
Aaron: Uh, thus the name has changed.
5:12
Aaron: Also, they've introduced an aid statement to this, right?
5:15
Aaron: Previous Nectar D'or had no aid statement.
5:17
Aaron: Previous Nectar D'or was aged in a combination of Ex Bourbon and Saturn's, which is a white dessert wine.
5:26
Aaron: This one happens to be in Ex Bourbon and not just Saturn's.
5:34
Aaron: This has spent 14 years in ex-bourbon, then the final two years in a blend or a mix of various sweet white dessert wines.
5:44
Aaron: That includes no drum roll necessary, it's Sauternes and Monbazillac, which is another dessert wine from France.
5:58
Aaron: So two French dessert wines, Monbazillac.
6:02
Aaron: I'm so glad that you have to say that.
6:04
Aaron: I know, and then so I worked on all of these and then I screwed up the very first one because Sauternes I knew.
6:10
Aaron: All right.
6:11
Aaron: The third barreling is Moscatel, which is a white Spanish dessert wine.
6:18
Aaron: And the fourth Tokaji, which is a Hungarian dessert wine.
6:25
Aaron: So 14 years in bourbon that then gets split into four different white dessert wines and then ultimately blended back together to make a 16-year-old scotch.
6:40
Gavin: I know it's not the same, but the dumb and dumber line where he's like, What's the soup of the Zay?
6:45
Gavin: Soup of the day?
6:45
Gavin: Soup de jour.
6:47
Aaron: Yeah, this what is the nectar?
6:48
Aaron: It's the nectar dior.
6:49
Gavin: Yeah.
6:50
Aaron: Like, yeah, so this one is not the same.
6:54
Aaron: Like the the initial thought when it was released was, oh, it's a now age statement.
7:00
Aaron: Now, in fairness, nectar Dior was often thought to be 14 years.
7:05
Aaron: So we all just jumped at, oh man, it's an older, now age-stated nectar duar, but it's not.
7:13
Aaron: There's actually a different blend of what's going on in the barrel.
7:17
Aaron: So now, yeah, we're gonna talk barrels today.
7:22
Gavin: I was gonna say you said something about barrel.
7:24
Aaron: Yeah, so we we wanted to talk a little bit about what what are the rules?
7:32
Aaron: Why do they have to use barrels?
7:33
Aaron: What kind of barrels can they use?
7:35
Aaron: What are the different like there's different sizes?
7:37
Aaron: You hear different names for barrels, right?
7:39
Aaron: What does all this mean?
7:40
Aaron: We're trying to remember this is a starter class, right?
7:43
Aaron: So this is the basics.
7:44
Aaron: We're gonna spend some time covering definitions, right?
7:47
Aaron: Um, so let's start, Gavin.
7:51
Aaron: Can you talk just a bit about what are the rules for barreling and maturing scotch?
8:00
Aaron: Right?
8:01
Aaron: You can make reference to other ones, but we're we're kind of trying to focus Scotch specific here.
8:06
Gavin: Sure.
8:07
Gavin: Uh there are two, well, one major entity and then another one that has some certain guidelines for barreling or maturing Scotch whiskey.
8:17
Gavin: So we're gonna touch on the Scotch Whiskey Association and the Scotch whiskey regulations of 2019.
8:26
Gavin: Okay.
8:27
Aaron: So those Was that the last time they updated these?
8:29
Gavin: Yeah, I believe so.
8:30
Gavin: So those are the two uh well, I think there may have been some amendments that may have come since then, but these are the two main entities or documents that uh Scotch whiskey distillers have to abide by to legally be called Scotch.
8:44
Gavin: Pardon?
8:45
Gavin: Or whiskey in Scotland.
8:47
Gavin: So here's some of the core barrel requirements.
8:52
Gavin: Material we must be matured in oak casks.
8:57
Gavin: Oak casks, got it.
8:59
Gavin: Oak casks casks must not exceed 700 liters.
9:06
Gavin: Interesting.
9:08
Gavin: That's big.
9:09
Gavin: That's big, and we'll refer to that here in just a minute.
9:12
Aaron: Do you do you know the imperial equivalent of 700 liters?
9:14
Aaron: Let's put you on the spot.
9:15
Aaron: Nope.
9:16
Aaron: I didn't know.
9:16
Aaron: You don't have Siri to ask real quick.
9:18
Aaron: How many gallons is it?
9:20
Aaron: That's got to be 50 or 30.
9:23
Aaron: That's gotta be pushing like 190, 200 gallons.
9:28
Aaron: That's a big, big, big oak cask.
9:32
Aaron: That is a huge.
9:33
Gavin: I mean, were that giant that this cask is a little bigger than the I'm setting you both.
9:42
Aaron: Um by comparison, this is a three-liter cask.
9:48
Gavin: We're gonna get into sizes here in a minute.
9:50
Gavin: Uh to be legally called Scotch in Scotland, remember, because we're in we're Scotch is from Scotland, must be aged or matured a minimum of three years.
10:05
Aaron: Okay.
10:05
Aaron: All right.
10:07
Aaron: I'm re I'm recapping as we go.
10:09
Aaron: We got uh oat cast less than 700 liters for a minimum of three years.
10:12
Aaron: Yes.
10:13
Gavin: Also, it must be matured in an excise warehouse or permitted place in Scotland.
10:23
Aaron: And those three years have to be in Scotland, and the government wants their take.
10:26
Aaron: Yes.
10:27
Aaron: I'm sure that in the actual rules, that was 48 pages in order to say what we could summarize in essentially a run-on sentence.
10:37
Aaron: Because you know, we're American and we like to tax things.
10:41
Aaron: I we were so we're in the construction industry and and we got the newest energy code and the book is two and a half inches thick, and we were lamenting that just 12 years ago the the book was about a quarter of an inch thick, and I was like, Yeah, that sounds about right.
10:58
Aaron: For sure.
10:59
Aaron: Like as soon as as soon as you let the government get a hold of an idea, they make it very paper intensive.
11:05
Gavin: I think that's just people in general.
11:06
Gavin: Yeah, fair enough.
11:08
Gavin: Um, all right, let's get back to it.
11:10
Gavin: The major update from the Scotch Whiskey Association um and the Scotch whiskey regulations of 2019 is they expanded the types of casks that can be used for maturation and finishing.
11:24
Aaron: That's right, because there isn't a rule that says these have to be new, you can reuse.
11:29
Aaron: Yes.
11:30
Aaron: Okay.
11:31
Gavin: Also, um, other spirits were included in that.
11:36
Gavin: So tequila barrels, um uh mezcal barrels, there's uh certain beers were allowed and different types of wines were allowed to be used.
11:50
Gavin: Uh some things that were still not permitted is you cannot age in stone fruit uh X barrels.
12:02
Aaron: You cannot so you can't like a peach barrel or like brandies of stone fruits.
12:10
Aaron: I think it is or it's actual fruit.
12:12
Aaron: I think it's actual fruit or who's storing a barrel of plums.
12:17
Aaron: Is that a thing still?
12:19
Gavin: Or I don't know, or or it's or it's a spirit that has had stone fruits in it.
12:25
Gavin: Okay, no sangria barrels, right?
12:29
Gavin: Interesting.
12:30
Gavin: However, even that when I mentioned beer earlier just a minute ago, um you can do beer, but if the beer had stone fruits in it, then you cannot or fruits in it at all, you could not ate those barrels.
12:51
Gavin: So no raspberry ales.
12:53
Gavin: Right.
12:54
Gavin: That's right.
12:54
Gavin: You shouldn't be drinking raspberry ales, anyways.
12:57
Aaron: Who drinks raspberry ales?
13:00
Aaron: I mean, there's a couple whiskeys who do blackberry flavored.
13:05
Aaron: So I don't know.
13:08
Aaron: I don't know.
13:08
Aaron: I don't I don't disagree with you.
13:10
Aaron: I don't understand why people probably will not make it on this table.
13:15
Aaron: So you're you're claiming that like old fireball barrels may not be allowed by the SWA.
13:23
Aaron: Yeah.
13:23
Aaron: Yeah that feels right.
13:25
Aaron: That feels right, I appreciate that.
13:28
Gavin: And as we mentioned, definitions, I want to talk just a brief second.
13:33
Aaron: Well, because a lot of times it doesn't say barrel on the bottle anywhere, it says a lot of other terms, and I think we all just read it as yeah, it's a kind of barrel.
13:46
Aaron: But if as with anything, everything has to have a definition, right?
13:50
Aaron: Yeah.
13:51
Aaron: So so walk us through kind of sizes of barrels.
13:55
Aaron: What do these various terms mean?
13:56
Aaron: Sizes.
13:58
Gavin: Okay, all right.
13:58
Gavin: We're gonna we're gonna hop into some sizes here.
14:01
Gavin: Here are a handful of common sizes.
14:06
Gavin: Okay.
14:07
Aaron: Now are these are these in any particular order?
14:10
Aaron: Alphabetical?
14:11
Gavin: I'm gonna start volumetric.
14:13
Gavin: I'm gonna start kind of more volume-esque.
14:15
Gavin: These are gonna be your typical scotch barrels.
14:19
Gavin: We're gonna talk more scotch, we're gonna mention a few other um spirits or whiskeys, but we're gonna we're gonna concentrate on scotch.
14:30
Gavin: ASB barrels, which are American standard barrels, right?
14:37
Gavin: These are gonna house ex-bourbon.
14:40
Gavin: These are the workhorses of Scotch whiskey, right?
14:45
Gavin: This is where this is what the majority of scotch is gonna be uh aged in.
14:52
Gavin: Okay.
14:53
Gavin: These are 200 liters or 53 gallons.
14:58
Aaron: Right.
14:59
Aaron: Right.
15:00
Aaron: That's a total just we're on say weights.
15:02
Aaron: That's the total volume that the barrel will hold.
15:05
Aaron: Yes.
15:06
Aaron: Not specifically the amount of booze in the barrel.
15:10
Aaron: Typically they leave a little less, but all right.
15:12
Aaron: So sometimes you'll see stuff reference.
15:14
Aaron: Like I've seen the American standard barrel is 190 to 200 liters.
15:18
Aaron: They're all the same size barrel.
15:21
Aaron: It's just a question of how much whiskey did you put in it to how full did you put the barrel in it?
15:27
Aaron: Right.
15:28
Gavin: And then, you know, we'll we'll maybe touch on it a little bit.
15:31
Gavin: But then there's also a thing called angel share.
15:34
Gavin: Yeah.
15:34
Gavin: That's it.
15:35
Gavin: What goes in doesn't come out.
15:37
Gavin: Exactly.
15:38
Gavin: Right.
15:39
Gavin: So we'll get to that uh later on.
15:41
Gavin: Then there's also Hogshead.
15:44
Gavin: It's my favorite.
15:46
Gavin: This one is a really funny.
15:48
Gavin: I mean, it's a funny name.
15:50
Gavin: Let's just let's just be blunt about it.
15:52
Gavin: Um, I'm gonna say not the funniest.
15:54
Gavin: Not the funniest, but it's pretty funny.
15:56
Gavin: It's funny, but not the funniest.
15:57
Gavin: Right.
15:57
Gavin: It's kind of like you and me.
15:59
Gavin: One of us is funny and one of them is the funniest.
16:01
Gavin: Yeah, yeah.
16:02
Gavin: Uh 20, or sorry, not 20.
16:04
Gavin: Uh, this is 225 to 250 liters, or 59 to 66 gallons.
16:14
Aaron: I actually put some notes about this same thing because I was intrigued by this.
16:18
Aaron: And and so far you've said everything correct.
16:20
Aaron: Oh, good job.
16:20
Aaron: Sweet.
16:20
Aaron: Good job, Gabo.
16:22
Gavin: We have done the same research.
16:23
Gavin: Good job.
16:24
Aaron: Your website you read is the same as the one I read.
16:28
Gavin: Uh, the hogshead is pretty interesting because essentially what they do is they will take about five of the ASB barrels.
16:37
Aaron: Yeah, there is nobody making new hogsheads, right?
16:41
Aaron: So in its truest sense, I should say.
16:43
Gavin: What they'll do is they'll break down about five of them and then they'll reassemble them to a slightly larger barrel uh to make basically four.
16:54
Gavin: So they'll basically take one whole barrel and distribute it among four others.
17:00
Aaron: Uh and so it requires them to create new heads, right?
17:02
Aaron: The the barrel ends have to be a little bit bigger because they're a little bit bigger round, and that limitation is based upon the bevel of the staves.
17:13
Aaron: That if you made the barrel too big around, the barrel has a hard time staying watertight.
17:19
Aaron: Or more importantly for us, whiskey tight.
17:22
Gavin: Yeah.
17:23
Gavin: All right.
17:24
Gavin: All right, but are you ready to hear the butt joke?
17:28
Aaron: No, no.
17:29
Aaron: This I I've got a couple butt jokes myself.
17:31
Gavin: All right, let's get to butt stuff.
17:33
Aaron: Oh, good lord.
17:34
Aaron: That was not one of my jokes.
17:36
Aaron: It is now.
17:38
Aaron: Mom who was watching the other day, turn it off.
17:41
Aaron: It's going down there for me.
17:43
Aaron: This is your five-minute warning.
17:48
Gavin: Yeah, I don't think the next butt joke is better if that's what you're hoping for.
17:52
Gavin: All right.
17:54
Gavin: The butt barrel.
17:56
Gavin: Jeez Louise, that's so funny to say.
17:58
Gavin: The butt barrel is a 500-liter or 132-gallon.
18:05
Aaron: And these are typically sherried barrels.
18:07
Aaron: You'll see sherry butt referenced a lot on the sides of bottles.
18:11
Aaron: Right.
18:12
Aaron: Um, I will say also, if you're trying to remember how all this relates, if you've ever been on a farm and seen a pig, you'll know the hog's head's about half the size of the butt.
18:23
Gavin: That works.
18:24
Gavin: That tracks, right?
18:25
Gavin: Yeah.
18:26
Gavin: Uh the next barrel is a puncheon.
18:29
Gavin: Ooh.
18:30
Gavin: So a punch-in is a 500 to a 700 liter barrel.
18:34
Gavin: It's a big.
18:35
Gavin: It's a big boy.
18:36
Gavin: It's as big as you can get.
18:38
Gavin: He's a punching above his weight.
18:40
Gavin: Good lord.
18:43
Gavin: Good lord.
18:43
Gavin: We're heading down that fast.
18:45
Gavin: Um 32 to 185 gallons.
18:50
Gavin: Um now, in the rules for scotch, this the punch-in barrel or cask is the max.
19:01
Gavin: Right.
19:02
Gavin: With that 700 level.
19:03
Gavin: With the 700 level.
19:04
Gavin: Um, and then there's the port pipe.
19:08
Gavin: So you may read or hear about port pipes in scotch.
19:14
Gavin: Uh 350 to 650 liters, and that equates to around uh 92 to 172 gallons.
19:23
Aaron: Yeah, so your pipes actually have a slightly different shape.
19:28
Aaron: Yes.
19:29
Aaron: Pipes don't tend to be as wide in the middle compared to their ends.
19:33
Aaron: They actually end up much longer, right?
19:36
Aaron: And trying to create that volume.
19:37
Aaron: Um, and so they tend to be much deeper when you stack them.
19:42
Aaron: And then they don't have quite such a pronounced hump in the center, if you will.
19:47
Aaron: Um, so they're pretty easy to spot when uh when you're wandering through a warehouse for sure.
19:52
Aaron: They're massive too.
19:54
Gavin: And then I have two specialty barrels I want to talk about.
19:57
Gavin: Some of my favorites.
19:58
Gavin: Yes.
19:58
Gavin: So we have the octave, which is a 50-liter barrel or 13 gallon.
20:04
Gavin: Uh, this is used for fast finishing and to add an intense wood influence.
20:10
Aaron: Yeah, and it it gets its name.
20:12
Aaron: Do you know how where this comes from?
20:14
Aaron: The octave is one-eighth the volume of a sherry butt.
20:19
Aaron: Thus, octave octave.
20:23
Aaron: Yeah.
20:24
Gavin: And then the next one is our quarter cask, which is a 50 to 125 liter or a 13 to a 33 gallon.
20:34
Aaron: Yes.
20:34
Aaron: And then and then this one, the quarter is actually in reference to the American standard barrel, not the sherry butt.
20:41
Aaron: Right.
20:42
Aaron: So, yeah.
20:42
Aaron: They're relative to other ones, but not the same.
20:45
Aaron: The benchmark is different.
20:47
Aaron: Right.
20:49
Gavin: That right there is a brief description of the and then the three-liter midge.
20:57
Aaron: A midge?
20:57
Aaron: I don't know what his name is, but that feels like a midge.
21:00
Aaron: A midge.
21:00
Aaron: All right, so this begs the question.
21:04
Aaron: The obvious age-old question.
21:06
Aaron: Does size matter?
21:08
Aaron: I'm so glad you asked.
21:11
Gavin: It does.
21:11
Gavin: It does.
21:12
Gavin: It does.
21:12
Gavin: Let's just be honest.
21:14
Gavin: Size matters.
21:15
Gavin: All right.
21:16
Gavin: Tell them why.
21:17
Aaron: Because remember, my mom's mics didn't watch it.
21:20
Aaron: I don't know.
21:21
Aaron: She she may have given up.
21:23
Aaron: She may have given up.
21:24
Gavin: There is a surface area to volume ratio that happens with whiskey.
21:29
Gavin: So the smaller barrels or casks provide a per drop ratio of liquid.
21:39
Aaron: Surface area, it's greater.
21:41
Aaron: Yeah.
21:41
Aaron: There's more surface area for every liter in this barrel and a small barrel than there is in a big barrel.
21:49
Aaron: Right.
21:50
Aaron: So before we're not gonna get into all of it because we got a whole second half of the show, but why does that matter?
21:56
Aaron: Because I like big.
21:59
Aaron: Barrels and you cannot lie.
22:01
Aaron: I like port and butts, and I can't.
22:03
Aaron: Yeah.
22:03
Aaron: No, how about you tell us?
22:05
Aaron: No, no.
22:05
Aaron: So, in a very quick synopsis, it's the interaction between liquid and wood that ultimately affects the maturation process.
22:13
Aaron: And so if I can change that ratio of volume of liquid to surface area of wood, I change that level of interaction.
22:20
Aaron: So small barrels, more barrel influence.
22:24
Aaron: Big barrels, less barrel influence.
22:27
Aaron: And there are advantages and disadvantages above.
22:30
Aaron: Right?
22:31
Aaron: All right.
22:32
Aaron: But um we have we have wandered down the barrel road and we have lost track of the whiskey.
22:40
Aaron: The whiskey setting in front of us.
22:42
Aaron: Yes.
22:42
Aaron: And I want to know what you think.
22:44
Aaron: I knowing that with all of our terminology, we need to be quick about our tasting notes.
22:51
Gavin: I absolutely love the nectar.
22:57
Aaron: Is to me what I always loved about Nectar D'or was it was very sweet and very fruity and very desserty.
23:05
Aaron: And I think that still exists here.
23:07
Aaron: Yep.
23:08
Aaron: But there's something else to this that I don't remember from the original Nectar D'or.
23:13
Aaron: And on the nose, I get a lot of like baked bread.
23:17
Aaron: Like it is very I I'll say grainy.
23:21
Aaron: I I don't know if that's a the right way to word that, but it very much smells to me like um that split top honey wheat bread.
23:32
Aaron: Okay.
23:32
Aaron: Right?
23:32
Aaron: Like the the grocery store brand bag.
23:37
Aaron: I get a lot of that on the nose.
23:40
Gavin: For me, I think um hearkening back to the Nectar de War, uh that the old version or Gen 1 version, I agree.
23:55
Gavin: I think it was it was very sweet, very desserty, very um uh shortbread kind of cream billet, almost.
24:07
Gavin: This Gen 2 version, I get a lot more kind of lemony custard or citrus notes to it.
24:20
Aaron: Yeah, it's it is more citrus dessert than like citrus juice.
24:25
Aaron: I don't have quite the acidic kind of bite to it, right?
24:28
Aaron: It more like a lemon custard, yeah, right?
24:31
Aaron: Than maybe lemon peel or lemon zest would be.
24:33
Aaron: I can see where you're going with that.
24:36
Aaron: Now below on the palate, what are you getting?
24:38
Gavin: On the palate, I still feel like there's a lot of lemon lemon-esque things about it.
24:46
Gavin: I think that the there's there's a bit of um don't take this, don't don't take this the wrong way, but a little bit of lemon Sprite note, like it's got that little lemon lime, and it's there's a little fizziness to it.
25:02
Gavin: And uh effervescence.
25:04
Aaron: Yeah, yeah, like evanescence, evanescence, yeah.
25:07
Aaron: Um, I will say uh just as good as they are at making whiskey, and Glenmorangie's really known for their cask knowledge and the way in which they're gonna hate our episode.
25:21
Aaron: No, that the the way in which they both mature and then finish whiskies.
25:26
Aaron: Um and so it's a fun one to explore if you're wanting to understand what kind of finishing barrels and stuff can impart because every one of Glenmorangie's releases kind of starts with that similar ex-bourbon age base and then kind of adds something to it.
25:42
Aaron: So I think it's like everybody started with the same cake and then they've gone and added different icings on top, right?
25:47
Aaron: Like there's a way to think of it.
25:49
Aaron: Um, I get more fruit, not dark plum date, like not that kind of fruit, but more like apricots, a little bit of peach, maybe um a little nectarine, kind of that light crisp fruit side of things um on the palate.
26:11
Aaron: I I think the bread still stays.
26:13
Aaron: Um but a lot of times you get into like these kind of real dark rich fruits, and I don't get any dark rich fruit.
26:20
Aaron: This is all very crisp.
26:22
Aaron: Um it does remind me of white dessert wines, right?
26:26
Aaron: I can you do pick up on some of that, but yeah, fruity for me.
26:30
Gavin: Um on the finish, do you stay there?
26:33
Gavin: I still I think it's it's got like a lemon curd kind of or like a lemon filled donutness to it.
26:44
Gavin: Yeah, it's a custardiness.
26:46
Gavin: Yeah, I think it's got a bit of a like a medium-ish finish.
26:51
Gavin: I think it, I think it sits there for just a just a little bit.
26:58
Aaron: It's not too long, but you know, sometimes sometimes we talk about a finish that's long, and I I think you can't say how long it is because it just keeps going and going and going.
27:06
Aaron: This one does kind of run through a couple different waves.
27:09
Aaron: There's a a distinctly citrus fruity, there is more of a soft, sweet apricot kind of fruity.
27:15
Aaron: There's a little bit of the grain stuff that comes back around.
27:18
Aaron: I get a little of that bread.
27:19
Aaron: Um and then it it kind of turns into a little bit of a woodiness, very light, not like a heavy charred wood, um, like we would get in in more of a traditional bourbon.
27:32
Aaron: Um, but yeah, I there's I I have a hard time saying long because it's not this big bold flavor that runs forever, but it does kind of linger.
27:41
Aaron: Like if you were asking me, it's a lingering medium finish, right?
27:45
Aaron: Like it's not quite too long yet, but it's certainly past where I would consider medium.
27:50
Gavin: It's kind of like the guys in the back patio after a night being here.
27:53
Aaron: It's like there's always there's always one or two that's like really long.
27:58
Aaron: But there's the the rest of them are like, okay, it's probably getting tough.
28:02
Aaron: All right, we're gonna put numbers to it.
28:04
Aaron: Ah, this one.
28:05
Aaron: I'm I already wrote my number down.
28:07
Aaron: I already wrote it down earlier, so that way then you wouldn't cheat off of me.
28:10
Aaron: I'm I'm gonna leave my book.
28:12
Aaron: All right, I got it.
28:14
Aaron: All right, give them your number, Gavin.
28:17
Aaron: I think this is an 87.
28:19
Aaron: Nice 87.
28:21
Aaron: That's high, that's high on the gotta have it list.
28:23
Gavin: Yeah, this is high on the gotta have it list.
28:25
Gavin: I docked it a few points because I think I like the nectar d'or.
28:29
Gavin: A few points higher.
28:32
Aaron: Yeah, few.
28:33
Aaron: Unfortunately, we have finished my nectar duar and I no longer have one.
28:37
Aaron: So, what I need is a buddy who's got a bottle of nectar d'or setting on the shelf.
28:40
Aaron: We need to do a side-by-side because I think that would be fun to really explore the differences.
28:44
Aaron: Um, I will say, for me, I'm at an 83 on this one.
28:51
Aaron: I think this is a solid keep on the shelf.
28:53
Aaron: This isn't the oh wow of the Glenmorangie product offering to me.
28:59
Aaron: They have a couple others that I would absolutely push this aside to go get.
29:04
Aaron: But I can't imagine not having something like this in a whiskey collection.
29:10
Aaron: It is that very light, very sweet, very floral, um Highlands that isn't sherried but still has a desserty kind of twist to it.
29:22
Aaron: Um, yeah, I think if if if your Scotch selection has 10 bottles, double digits or more, I think this is probably on most people's list of we gotta have one like that.
29:34
Gavin: Absolutely.
29:35
Gavin: I couldn't agree with you more.
29:36
Gavin: I think this bottle or the Nectar Dewar Gen 1.
29:40
Gavin: I think that if you're starting out in your whiskey journey or in your scotch journey, this is perfect to have on the shelf.
29:52
Aaron: It's perfect, it's high price.
29:54
Aaron: It's an 87.
29:56
Aaron: The use of the word perfect feels pretty apropos.
29:59
Aaron: All right.
30:00
Aaron: 87 for Gavin, 83 for me, Glenmorangie's Nectar 16.
30:07
Aaron: Go get you one.
30:08
Aaron: It has come to our attention that not all of you have yet connected with the Noble Dram.
30:15
Aaron: So first, click that subscribe button down below so you don't miss a single minute of the Noble Dram shenanigans.
30:22
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30:28
Aaron: And lastly, leave us a comment so we can connect directly with you.
30:33
Aaron: Remember, the dram becomes noble when you share it with your friends.
30:39
Aaron: All right, it is now my favorite part of every episode.
30:45
Aaron: Gavin.
30:46
Aaron: Seeing me?
30:47
Aaron: Be so kind as to pour me a whiskey.
30:49
Aaron: Oh, right.
30:50
Gavin: It makes me feel special.
30:52
Gavin: It just so happens I have a bottle sitting over here.
30:54
Gavin: Uh do tell us all about some of this.
30:57
Gavin: How about I if I do it this way or should I do it this way?
31:00
Gavin: You can do this.
31:01
Gavin: This is it is you know, I've enjoyed this bottle.
31:07
Gavin: Yes.
31:07
Gavin: So this is the Ardnamerchan Mezcal finish for release.
31:16
Aaron: Nope, nope, nope, nope.
31:17
Aaron: Give me this one.
31:19
Aaron: I'm gonna get started.
31:20
Gavin: You didn't even let me finish.
31:21
Aaron: Nope, I'm not gonna let you.
31:22
Aaron: You didn't let me finish.
31:24
Aaron: So we started with a whiskey finished in a white, a mixture of white dessert wines.
31:33
Aaron: We have gone completely different direction.
31:37
Aaron: Yeah, no, no, no, that's that's got a little bit more than just mezcal on the nose.
31:43
Gavin: Yes, it yes, it sure does.
31:44
Gavin: This bottle, let's just kind of start out real quick, was one of those types of revisions that came in, I believe it was the 2019, where Scotch could legally now use Mezcal.
32:05
Aaron: Couldn't so this is yeah, because that was that was new in 2019.
32:09
Aaron: Yes, so that means this bottle can't be that old.
32:13
Aaron: Well, if you couldn't do this till 2019, I how old is this one?
32:18
Aaron: Does it have an age statement on it?
32:20
Gavin: Yes.
32:20
Gavin: Um, this actually it well doesn't have an age statement, it is six years in first fill ex bourbon.
32:30
Aaron: Okay, so they already had that rocking and rolling in 2019.
32:33
Gavin: Yes, yeah, yeah, makes sense.
32:34
Gavin: And then it was finished in for 18 months in Mezcal.
32:40
Gavin: Okay.
32:40
Gavin: Tasks.
32:42
Gavin: So dual maturation or we get into no, we get into maturation and finishing.
32:50
Aaron: It is a thing that's not in my notes, and it just dawned on me.
32:53
Aaron: We probably should clarify the difference between maturation and finishing.
32:56
Aaron: Exactly.
32:56
Aaron: Yep.
32:56
Aaron: So do you want to explain the basics of the two?
33:00
Aaron: Since you have a we both had finished barrels, but we're also matured in bourbon.
33:06
Aaron: Yes.
33:07
Aaron: So what is the rule of the makes it a match a matured in versus a what happens where it's only finished?
33:16
Gavin: So maturation, that is its first barrel, right?
33:20
Gavin: That is what it's being, that's its main vessel.
33:24
Aaron: So you do hear, you do hear reference to like double matured.
33:29
Aaron: And it it's because by definition, it has lived in that barrel long enough that it could have been mature, that could have classified as a maturation, right?
33:39
Aaron: Which means three years.
33:41
Aaron: So if I put it into a barrel and it stays in there for more than three years, that's a maturation.
33:47
Aaron: If it is in the barrel less than three years, I can't claim that it was matured in that barrel because it never reached maturation in that barrel.
33:56
Aaron: So it was just finished in that barrel.
33:58
Aaron: But yeah, you'll see, I'll say the vast majority of finishing barrels are somewhere between six months and two years.
34:06
Aaron: Um, I the argument I think is if you've gone over that, you've either pulled out all the flavor you want, or you're gonna run out past three years and get you to where you want.
34:17
Aaron: All right.
34:18
Aaron: One of the confusing parts of double maturation is we often think of that as, oh, it spent three years in at least three years in one barrel, then got pulled out and put in three years in another barrel.
34:28
Aaron: And that's not absolutely true.
34:30
Aaron: Because scotch can be blended from different barrelings at the same distillery.
34:35
Aaron: We get a half the barrels be six years in bourbon, and half the barrels be six years in sherry.
34:40
Aaron: And when I blend those two together, that is a double matured scotch, because all the scotch was matured, but in two different kinds of oak.
34:49
Aaron: I think this is double.
34:50
Aaron: Only to add confusion.
34:51
Aaron: I think it's a double jeopardy.
34:53
Aaron: Yeah, it's like a double negative double two wrongs, don't make a right, which feels very fitting for this room right now.
35:01
Gavin: Uh all right, getting back to this.
35:03
Gavin: Um the batch size for this bottling is very interesting.
35:09
Gavin: It's 4,968 bottles from this batch.
35:17
Gavin: Only 900 bottles were allocated to the United States.
35:22
Gavin: So this is one of 900 bottles in the whole United States.
35:25
Gavin: It's about to be one of no bottles left, right?
35:29
Gavin: Yes.
35:29
Gavin: Uh, and we're clocking in at 55% ABV on this one.
35:34
Gavin: Yeah.
35:35
Aaron: Yeah, no, this is hotter.
35:38
Gavin: Yeah, I know.
35:39
Aaron: This one is this one is turned up in a number of different ways.
35:42
Gavin: Turnt up.
35:42
Gavin: Uh, we are in the Western Highlands with this one.
35:46
Gavin: And Ardnamurchan, if you think that that's a fun thing to say, actually means the headland of the great seas in Gaelic.
35:58
Aaron: Or Gaelic.
36:00
Aaron: So are do you know where on the map of Scotland Ardnamurchan falls?
36:06
Aaron: Ardnamurchan is on the west side.
36:09
Gavin: Um not far from Fort Williams in Glencoe.
36:15
Gavin: Okay.
36:16
Gavin: Got a middle, middle of the highlands on the west hand side.
36:20
Gavin: Wait, I'm gonna say here in hand gesture, and it's probably gonna be flipped from where you're gonna go.
36:24
Aaron: No, you've totally done it wrong.
36:24
Aaron: It's actually over here, not over here.
36:26
Aaron: Yeah, but then again, like in your face, there's no map, so that doesn't really have to be hold up, lean out just a little bit, and I'll put a map right here of where Ardnamurchan is.
36:36
Aaron: There we go.
36:36
Aaron: There we go.
36:37
Aaron: Love it.
36:40
Gavin: All right, so uh I've spent uh some time talking about kind of the sizing of barrels and kind of giving a little bit of backstory to the maturation um rules.
36:55
Gavin: However, you mentioned something about the head of a barrel or a cask.
37:01
Gavin: Can you maybe give us an explanation of the parts of a barrel or a cask?
37:08
Gavin: Yeah, I can do that.
37:09
Aaron: So I'm gonna try really hard not to call it a barrel.
37:12
Aaron: It's an old habit that dies hard, but we we've already clarified this isn't a barrel, and most of what your scotch gets aged in it isn't barrels.
37:23
Aaron: Most of the barrels that make it to Scotland get repurposed into hogsheads.
37:29
Aaron: So I'm gonna try to refer to it as a cask, but if I I apologize if I accidentally call it a barrel.
37:34
Aaron: All right, so first and foremost, we hear this term thrown around is the stave.
37:39
Aaron: The stave is the thin wood strips that are the sides of the cask.
37:45
Aaron: I almost said barrel right there, right?
37:47
Aaron: First try, I almost said it.
37:49
Aaron: So the way they make those staves, those staves are actually beveled.
37:53
Aaron: So the inside is actually a little narrower than the outside, right?
37:56
Aaron: Which helps make the circle.
37:58
Aaron: And then those staves are heated sometimes with steam, sometimes with fire, sometimes with just hot water, in order to make them pliable to create the curve of the barrel.
38:14
Aaron: Those staves are often start as wooden planks that are left out to age quite often in the air for sometimes a couple of years, trying to get the moisture content weighed down, which drives off some of the green wood flavors, only to have moisture put back in to try to create the barrel, but that's neither here nor there.
38:37
Aaron: All right, so other wood, other wood components.
38:41
Aaron: We referred to as the head earlier.
38:44
Aaron: The head is just simply the ends of the barrel.
38:46
Aaron: There is no head and feet, they're both heads.
38:49
Aaron: Sometimes you'll see that referred to as the cant, the cant of the barrel.
38:53
Aaron: Um, I'll explain here in a minute where that cant comes in and why it's important.
38:58
Aaron: Um can't you explain it right now?
39:00
Aaron: No, no, because I think it makes more sense when we talk about something later.
39:03
Aaron: Um when they assemble a barrel, though, there is no, sorry, when they assemble a cask, there is no, there is no parts and pieces, no glue that holds staves together.
39:15
Aaron: There's actually no glue that holds the the heads together, the ends.
39:20
Aaron: So those are actually doweled together.
39:22
Aaron: Oh, okay.
39:23
Aaron: So they actually uh drill holes in the boards, put dowels in between, and then put a piece of it's like a grass that gets set between them and then driven together, and that helps seal that joint.
39:36
Aaron: Almost like a reed.
39:37
Aaron: Yeah, and then it's the same thing that falls in the bead of the cask, which is the groove at the end of the stays, which the barrel end sets into when they finally assemble.
39:49
Aaron: And the way you keep that all held together is with the hoops.
39:53
Aaron: Like a hula hoop.
39:54
Aaron: Yeah, hoops are bands, right?
39:56
Aaron: Depends on on where you're from.
39:58
Aaron: Now, these are either steel or iron bands that go around the the cask.
40:04
Aaron: Most barrels, there are six hoops.
40:08
Aaron: Unless you're French, then they make eight, just because they're French, right?
40:12
Aaron: They got to do everything a little different.
40:14
Aaron: And the way it works is I put the hoop on the end, and as I push the hoop towards the middle of the barrel, where the barrel actually got wider, it actually tends to force and create tension that compresses those staves together that helps seal that barrel.
40:31
Aaron: Right?
40:32
Aaron: Now, this is great, but now I have a barrel that I have no way to get in or out of because I've hammered typically hot hoops because I've heated them up so they'll expand, driven them on, and then when they cool down and construct constrict, they actually tighten down on the barrel.
40:48
Aaron: So I need a way to get into it, and so they cut a hole in the side.
40:52
Aaron: Mom, look away.
40:54
Aaron: But this is called the bunghole.
40:55
Aaron: Excuse me?
40:56
Aaron: What?
40:56
Aaron: The bunghole.
40:58
Gavin: One more time for me.
40:59
Aaron: Well, the hole is only half as important because that's where you're gonna fill stuff and you're gonna take stuff out.
41:05
Aaron: But at some point you want to be able to put the barrel away and not have stuff get in there, and so you have to put a plug in there, and so you have to put a bung in your bunghole.
41:13
Aaron: So um most bungs now um are made over out of like a hard silicon, right?
41:23
Aaron: Um, because it actually helps to seal against the barrel edge.
41:27
Aaron: Uh, however, back in the day, and still in some places, they use wooden bungs.
41:32
Aaron: The problem there is just like before, I don't glue them into place.
41:37
Aaron: We're gonna drive it in with um or hammer it down in place, but I need something to create that seal.
41:42
Aaron: And so you put a bung cloth, which is a little square piece of fabric, put the bung in the middle, hammer it down, and that seals everything, hopefully whiskey tight.
41:53
Aaron: Now, it's pretty common just to be safe, when we store the cask, we're gonna store it with the bunghole up so that there isn't liquid up against it, right?
42:04
Aaron: That there is, if there's any air in the barrel, that keeps the air near the top, so I'm less apt to leak.
42:10
Aaron: Now, again, there's nothing really holding the barrel together other than tension.
42:15
Aaron: So at some point, there is, as you can see in this barrel here, right?
42:18
Aaron: I've I've actually got stuff leaking out of it.
42:21
Aaron: Um, this happens, this happened to held sherry for several months and now is currently leaking sherry.
42:28
Aaron: Currently aging a bourbon and rye combo, and it's oozing sherry out of the the cracks in the staves.
42:36
Aaron: You should get that checked out.
42:37
Aaron: Yeah, no, it's the kind of thing you probably should see the doctor for for sure.
42:41
Aaron: All right, so I made reference to the the heads of the barrels being smaller than the middle, and that they refer to the cant of the barrel relative to the bilge.
42:54
Aaron: The bilge is the widest part in the center, and that creates that crown, and that's the difference between the size of the cant and the size of the bilge dictates how round that barrel is, right?
43:06
Aaron: If it's truly spherical, right?
43:09
Aaron: It is extreme or flat and straight, right?
43:13
Aaron: Did you is this a bulge or a bilge?
43:16
Aaron: Bilge, B-I-L-G.
43:18
Aaron: Um not like not like the bilge in a boat with all the water collection, you gotta pull it out.
43:23
Aaron: That's what I was wondering.
43:24
Aaron: No, it's the same, same term, same, same word, different meaning for sure.
43:28
Aaron: There's a lot of the bilge is actually probably one of the more important parts of a barrel.
43:33
Aaron: Ooh, do tell.
43:35
Aaron: And the reason is the barrel is actually maneuverable because of the bilge.
43:41
Aaron: If the sides of the barrel were perfectly straight, it would roll in a straight line and it would be almost impossible to turn.
43:49
Aaron: Remember, we're talking about casks that might be 700 liters or 200 gallons, and a gallon of whiskey weighs about eight pounds.
43:59
Aaron: So we're talking a port pipe or a um or a full size cask could weigh as much as 16, 17, 1800 pounds.
44:10
Aaron: And so it'd be nice if I didn't have to have a forklift to move them every time.
44:14
Aaron: It's almost a ton.
44:15
Aaron: And so by by leaving the center of the barrel slightly bigger around than the ends, it gives it an easy spot for the barrel to roll.
44:23
Aaron: You'll notice there are no hoops in the center because that way then I don't have to roll over the joints and the hoops.
44:30
Aaron: And if at any given moment I need to turn the barrel, I can rotate it on that center pivot and then roll it in a new direction.
44:38
Aaron: So it becomes a very versatile maneuvering system that one man can move an immense amount of weight once in the barrel.
44:48
Gavin: I mean, to think about a barrel in all of its simplicities.
44:54
Gavin: But it's kind of like an engineering marvel in a way.
44:59
Aaron: Yeah, it's it's quite clever, right?
45:02
Aaron: Um, considering how long we've been using barrels, right?
45:05
Aaron: They've been around for hundreds and hundreds of years.
45:08
Gavin: Not only does it not only have we filled it with whiskey, but barrels were used for many different all sorts of stuff.
45:17
Aaron: Yeah, it was a it was a very common shipping container for all sorts of stuff, which I think ultimately points to one of the reasons why we use casks in whiskey.
45:30
Aaron: So why do we use casks and whiskey then?
45:32
Aaron: So, one, that would have been the mode of transportation.
45:36
Aaron: It was the Amazon box of its time, right?
45:39
Aaron: When it first came out.
45:40
Aaron: Um, you could roll it out onto the boat, you could ship it to wherever it was going, you could roll it back onto the dock.
45:48
Aaron: Uh a lot of these, depending on what was inside, would float if you dropped it in the water.
45:54
Aaron: Like there was a number of things that was really convenient about it.
45:57
Aaron: And so we shipped all sorts of stuff from dry goods to to wet goods.
46:01
Aaron: Um and so that became very much a common shipping container.
46:09
Aaron: Well, as soon as it becomes a shipping container, um, just dumb luck.
46:14
Aaron: I would love to say that a lot of this is an immense amount of science, but there's a great deal of dumb luck that has happened across the whiskey um history.
46:22
Aaron: And so almost all the stories of why do we age in an oak barrel has been rooted in the fact that while oak barrels would have been common.
46:31
Aaron: Why?
46:32
Aaron: Oak has such a tight grain, it's a good wood for holding liquid in a barrel.
46:39
Aaron: If I use a softer wood, it tends to leak and weep and all those kinds of things, which ultimately means some of the stuff I put in the barrel doesn't make it to where it's supposed to go.
46:52
Aaron: And I don't want that, right?
46:53
Aaron: If I'm shipping.
46:54
Aaron: Um same thing holds when we get, and we'll talk a little bit about toasting and charring, I think, right?
47:01
Aaron: Because I that's another reason.
47:02
Aaron: Like I think it was dumb luck that they were they were doing it for one reason and found benefits in another way and have decided to stick with it.
47:09
Aaron: I feel like you're leading the witness here.
47:11
Aaron: No, no, no, no.
47:12
Aaron: It's just something I I know you're going to ask me.
47:16
Aaron: Um, because it's it's the same process when I started doing my research.
47:19
Aaron: Like you just kind of get down, you're like, Yeah, but why not this?
47:21
Aaron: Why not this?
47:21
Aaron: All right.
47:22
Aaron: So so oh no, I do want I do want to say one other thing about barrels.
47:26
Aaron: Um, a lot of times the use of old barrels was rooted in the fact that they had a lot of used barrels.
47:37
Aaron: So in the world of Scotch now, we have a lot of ex-bourbon barrels because you can only use a bourbon barrel once and then you can't use it again for bourbon.
47:47
Aaron: So the Scotch industry is like, well, we need barrels, and we actually kind of like the fact that there's a little bourbon flavor to it, right?
47:53
Aaron: Um, and so they're like, we'll take them, right?
47:56
Aaron: They're cheaper the second time around than they were the first time.
47:58
Aaron: Same thing happened with sherry.
48:01
Aaron: Um, at its peak, sherry was a pretty common drink in England, and so the only way to ship sherry back in the day was you filled a barrel full of sherry in Spain and you shipped it to England.
48:13
Aaron: And nobody wanted to ship empty barrels back to Spain for more sherry, and so they just gave them to the Scotch guys who needed something to hold their whiskey for a bit, and so they began to mature in there.
48:25
Aaron: Now there's a whole separate sub-uh economy of creating barrels with sherry in them just to just to then let later age Scotch, right?
48:37
Aaron: Where really it was we had a bunch of extra barrels we didn't know what to do with.
48:39
Aaron: And they're like, it's actually kind of good that way.
48:45
Gavin: I also I think I've heard or seen where sometimes they'll just ship sherry barrels over with sherry in them and just dump the sherry because they want the barrel and they've had an excess of sherry.
49:01
Aaron: So they would it would have to be low budget sherry, I would think.
49:05
Aaron: So there's a couple things.
49:07
Aaron: Most of the time, sherry's aged for three years in new barrels and then moved into older barrels because they don't want to put as much wood flavor into sherry, so they want to kind of use older stuff.
49:16
Aaron: And so what actually that industry has somewhat created is they create sherry, put it in the barrels for about three years, take it out of the barrels, ship the barrels to Scotland, and then they take that three-year-old sherry and distill it into brandy because they can remove a lot of those oak flavors through the distillation process.
49:38
Aaron: And so, yes, we currently make a lot of sherry just to put it in the barrels for a bit, ultimately becomes brandy, anyways, instead of just going straight to making brandy.
49:50
Aaron: And that's in an effort to create that sherried oak.
49:54
Gavin: Um so you mentioned charring.
49:58
Gavin: Yeah.
49:59
Aaron: So why do we char a barrel or toast a barrel?
50:04
Aaron: So there's a couple theories on how it began, but then there's also a lot of science on why we still do it.
50:11
Aaron: Probably the most credible sounding story for why we charred barrels is back in the day you would reuse barrels.
50:20
Aaron: And some of the stuff that was in the barrel you didn't want in your whiskey, i.e., if you were shipping pickles and the pickle barrel showed up, I didn't want to put my whiskey into an old pickle barrel.
50:33
Aaron: So the way you got rid of the pickle flavor, because the pickle barrel probably wasn't toasted, they just made a barrel and put pickles in it.
50:42
Aaron: But I would burn the inside of the barrel to burn off any of that stuff.
50:46
Aaron: So it actually was a bit of a disinfectant, a cleaning method of a barrel was to burn the inside of it real good.
50:55
Aaron: That's why we drink whiskey.
50:57
Aaron: Now, now the science behind it um, part of the burning process actually increases the surface area of the inside of the barrel, right?
51:08
Aaron: Because now instead of having a smooth wooden surface, I have a cracked and and broken up surface.
51:13
Aaron: Additionally, I've created activated charcoal in a barrel, right?
51:17
Aaron: That activated charcoal will naturally latch on to sulfur compounds that are in your new make, which is those heavier alcohols that show up at the end of the distillation process.
51:31
Aaron: And so it helps remove some of those flavors by using a heavily charred barrel.
51:37
Aaron: There's also some dynamics in the fact that that heavily charred wood actually imparts a more amber, darker color to the whiskey faster.
51:50
Aaron: So you actually get more coloring from a heavier charred barrel.
51:55
Aaron: And then there's this trick of toasting barrels.
51:58
Aaron: And so toasting means just lower heat, longer period of time, as opposed to charring, which is a high heat for a short period of time.
52:06
Aaron: High heat, short period of time creates this almost alligator skin-looking black char on the inside.
52:14
Aaron: Whereas toasting, we're actually roasting the wood.
52:18
Aaron: That tends to break down the cellular structure of the wood and actually turns a lot of the cell structures into flavor compounds.
52:29
Aaron: And so that could be, I'm gonna look at my notes to make sure I don't I don't miss any of them.
52:35
Aaron: So that that gives you flavors of vanilla, a nuttiness, a variety of baking spices that we often think of in bourbons that comes from that toasting and roasting process of the barrel.
52:49
Aaron: That still occurs to some extent in scotches when they do the STR process, right?
52:54
Aaron: Where they scrape off the inside of the barrel, retoast it, and rechar it in an effort to revitalize that barrel's interior surface.
53:03
Aaron: That in conjunction with how big is the barrel really changes how fast some of those flavors and and tastes and stuff begin to impart on the whiskey.
53:14
Gavin: So how does knowing that, how does a cask or barrel actually mature a whiskey?
53:25
Aaron: So I mean, I'm not a I'm not a chemist, I'll be honest.
53:30
Aaron: Um my parents were pretty disappointed in my chemistry grades when I was in college.
53:36
Aaron: So I I'm gonna tell you a little bit of what I'm just showed your parents your college no one they get you you get home freshman year, you're at Christmas, you're like, oh, my report card came.
53:47
Aaron: No, it's dumb, dumb thing to say out loud.
53:49
Aaron: Um, so there's two things that interact.
53:53
Aaron: So as I I fill a barrel up, right?
53:56
Aaron: And as pressure changes, as pressure goes up in the barrel, it pushes liquid out into the wood.
54:02
Aaron: And then as pressure drops, that liquid actually pulls back into the barrel.
54:07
Aaron: Well, the way we change pressure is we change the temperature of the barrel, right?
54:11
Aaron: So as it warms up in the summer versus the winter or during the day versus at night, just varies on where you are and and how severe that is.
54:20
Aaron: That changes that pressure, right?
54:22
Aaron: That fluctuation in and out of the wood.
54:24
Aaron: And what happens is as I push the liquid into the wood, certain compounds in the wood interact with the alcohol, and certain compounds in the wood interact with water.
54:37
Aaron: So some of the things in the wood are alcohol soluble, i.e., dissolves in alcohol.
54:44
Aaron: And if I have if I have put a liquid in that is 65% alcohol, that means 35% is water, but like that's a mixture that has both alcohol and water.
54:55
Aaron: So I'm gonna get a little bit of both.
54:58
Aaron: So if it is an alcoholic, alcohol-soluble compound, it's a lipophilic, and those tend to impart flavors of wood, coconut, a creamy texture, vanilla, which is the artificial vanilla, right?
55:18
Aaron: Which is where we get the vanilla flavor.
55:19
Aaron: It's vanilla artificial or is vanilla.
55:21
Aaron: Vanilla is a real thing.
55:23
Aaron: Vanilla, when you buy artificial vanilla extract at the grocery store, you're buying vanilla, which is an oak extract.
55:31
Aaron: It also carries with it some fatty acids, which gives kind of an oily mouthfeel to the whiskey.
55:38
Aaron: And what we often think of as baking spices, clove, nutmeg, those kinds of things.
55:44
Aaron: Those are all alcohol soluble.
55:46
Aaron: Inversely, there are compounds that are water soluble or hydrophilic.
55:51
Aaron: So hydrophilics include sugars as well as tannins, phenolic acids, which impart a ton of color, and then glycols.
56:04
Aaron: Glycols are creamy oiliness, right?
56:07
Aaron: So that gives this real smooth, creamy mouthfeel.
56:10
Aaron: So depending on the ABV dictates how much I have alcohol in the solution versus water, and thus what kinds of flavors I get out of my barrel.
56:23
Aaron: So this is a trick that scotch guys do because they're reusing a barrel that's already had whiskey in it.
56:31
Aaron: So one of the things they want to know is what was the ABV of the liquid that went into that barrel before, because that will give them an indication as to which compounds have been leached out of the barrel at what rate.
56:43
Aaron: So they may then go into the barrel either lower proof than the bourbon was that was in there before, or at a higher proof than the bourbon was before, in an effort to pull certain compounds out.
56:56
Aaron: They'll also do that differently for the first time they use a barrel than the second time they use a barrel or a third time they use that barrel.
57:03
Aaron: And so all of this is this subtle art of barreling and maturing to try to get certain flavors out of the barrel.
57:13
Aaron: So even though you might have two barrels that, in theory, came from the same tree, because they've held different things at different proofs, they've leached different things out.
57:23
Aaron: And the amount of char I put on it and the amount of toasting I put on it changed the cellular structure of the wood.
57:29
Aaron: Like all of this stuff changes.
57:32
Aaron: So you can actually have the same exact new make come off the still and put it into different barrels and have completely different whiskies when you're done.
57:41
Gavin: Everything you just said was long-winded.
57:45
Gavin: I think I'm drinking tree juice.
57:48
Aaron: Tree juice, dirty tree water, or dissolved dissolved oak barrel.
57:54
Gavin: Yes.
57:54
Gavin: No, yeah.
57:55
Gavin: First and foremost, thank you so much for all of that.
57:59
Gavin: I mean, take a breather.
58:01
Gavin: Yeah, I need a lab coat when we get into these things.
58:04
Gavin: Like that was very in-depth.
58:07
Aaron: And I mean I know the intent was this to Scotch for starters, and we went way more in depth on scotch than probably most starters will get.
58:16
Aaron: But there is nothing about what we talked about in Scotch with regards to how the barrel matures that's any different than how rum matures, then mezcals mature, then tequilas, or bourbons, or wines, or beers.
58:31
Aaron: All of them are doing the same process.
58:33
Aaron: Different levels of alcohol, different flavor compounds that they're shooting for.
58:38
Aaron: And so they they barrel differently, but ultimately the same science is happening in all the barrels.
58:44
Aaron: It's science and art married together.
58:48
Aaron: Yeah, I I mean I I think a little bit of luck.
58:51
Aaron: I think so.
58:51
Aaron: I'm I'm an engineer, right?
58:53
Aaron: So like I want the equation that perfectly balances out, but there's so much artistry to what's going on here.
58:58
Aaron: And I think part of this is maybe a conversation I need to do a lot more research on because I don't know enough about it, is the art of blending, because that's I think the thing that gets lost in this, right?
59:10
Aaron: We're we're gonna talk a lot about what goes into making whiskey, but ultimately what makes it in the bottle, somebody has decided a little bit of this and a little bit of that and a little bit of this.
59:20
Aaron: And that is an art that I don't think very many people understand.
59:24
Aaron: Well, and I include myself when I say that, right?
59:28
Gavin: Not only that, I think when we sit and we taste whiskey, whiskey is so subjective, right?
59:38
Gavin: You mentioned it in our couple episodes and a couple shows, and especially when we were talking with Big Chief, how um it's all about kind of the person and how not only does the whiskey have its own uniqueness, but I think a the person has its own uniqueness and how everybody is different, and so when you have a blender or a master blender, if we could just set on that for just a second, that person's palette, they're creating this art form, this painting, if you will.
1:00:30
Gavin: And they've trained their palette and they've done all of these things, and we get to partake and be a part of it, but it's also their version of it, and it's then translated into like how do we enjoy it, how do we like it?
1:00:46
Aaron: You got really artistic there.
1:00:48
Aaron: I mean, that was that was poetically beautiful.
1:00:50
Aaron: I don't know if it made any sense, but no, I I don't want to speak for everybody out there, they may be lost, but I think I followed, you know.
1:00:57
Aaron: Oh, perfect.
1:00:58
Aaron: No, I the truth of the matter is what I taste is what I taste, right?
1:01:03
Aaron: And it's not the same as what you taste.
1:01:04
Aaron: And even if we taste the same thing, we remember different things because of that taste.
1:01:08
Aaron: Um, I always equate it just from what I do.
1:01:12
Aaron: It's like it's like somebody paints a painting, but how you light the room that the painting's in matters, right?
1:01:17
Aaron: And what color are the other, what color is the wall the painting's up against matters.
1:01:21
Aaron: And and how good is the eyesight of the guy who's looking at the painting kind of matters, right?
1:01:25
Aaron: Like all of that stuff, it's it's not just the creator, it's the viewer that actually defines a little bit of what it is they're seeing, which is is is so fun.
1:01:34
Aaron: And I think our palettes ultimately define how we how we enjoy whiskey just as much as the people who created the whiskey and how they created it.
1:01:44
Gavin: Well, it's like the medium of the painting, the medium of the barrel, like the kind of wood, the environment that it was matured in or aged in, you know, is it in Scotland, which is what we're focusing on, or is it in Texas?
1:02:03
Gavin: Right?
1:02:04
Gavin: I think a lot of those nuances really affect the barrel and the aging process and the m maturation process, because you could have an oak barrel, same oak that was, let's just say it was new in Scotland, and a new barrel in Texas or in Houston where we're at, and they're gonna come out completely different because the weather, the environment, every scenario is uniquely that position.
1:02:42
Gavin: So it will create its own separate um art form to presume.
1:02:52
Aaron: Yeah, I mean and the problem is there's so many variables here, it's hard to pin down that this variable does this and this does that, right?
1:02:59
Aaron: Um, it's a great deal of trial and error over the centuries.
1:03:03
Aaron: And I think that's one of the one of the hard parts of being a master distiller and a master blender is is trying to learn what you're doing when you might retire before you find out if you got good at it or not, right?
1:03:18
Aaron: Like that's a that's a mind-boggling thing to me.
1:03:21
Gavin: Yeah, I mean to think about it, there's a lot of master blenders or distillers that in Scotland, let's just you know, you you think of a 16-year-old scotch or you know, 30-year-old scotch, those people may not even be in the market or alive when it's time to pull it from the barrel.
1:03:45
Aaron: The idea that you get the job as the master distiller, and for the next several years, all the stuff that goes into bottles was actually made by somebody else.
1:03:55
Aaron: Right.
1:03:55
Aaron: And about the time you they're ready to start pulling stuff out of the barrels you laid down, you're retiring and somebody else is coming in to take over.
1:04:03
Aaron: I it there's a constant shuffle of the knowledge base that keeps having to be handed down to the next generation because without it, we'd all be starting over from scratch every time.
1:04:13
Aaron: We wouldn't have any of this stuff.
1:04:15
Aaron: It's an inheritance for sure.
1:04:17
Aaron: All right, we need to talk whiskey though.
1:04:18
Gavin: Yeah, uh, I'd like to know what you're getting on the nose on this one.
1:04:22
Aaron: So I this one this one slaps you in the face compared to the first one, right?
1:04:28
Aaron: The first one is a is a soft kiss from a beautiful woman.
1:04:32
Aaron: This is a this is a punch in the nose.
1:04:33
Aaron: This is a punch in the nose in the back of a in the back of a pub from a burly fella.
1:04:38
Aaron: Um so this one's obviously peated.
1:04:42
Aaron: It is peated.
1:04:43
Aaron: It's got a ton of earthy, smoky peat.
1:04:47
Aaron: There's a hint of agave on the nose.
1:04:50
Aaron: And I'll say the first time I put my my nose down in there, like it's proof.
1:04:55
Aaron: Like I I could smell the alcohol burn.
1:04:58
Aaron: As we've sat here and sipped it a few times, it's gotten a little more subdued, but um, I do get a little bit of that kind of limey, sweet agave kind of nose, but yeah, it's it's a wet grass campfire, right?
1:05:14
Gavin: For sure.
1:05:14
Gavin: I I agree with that.
1:05:16
Gavin: I put um there's an ashy smoke to it.
1:05:20
Gavin: I I cooked Italian sausages last night, so I think there's a bit of like a hint of Italian sausage fennel in there?
1:05:28
Gavin: Yeah, yeah.
1:05:29
Gavin: On the nose or on the palate?
1:05:31
Gavin: On the nose.
1:05:32
Gavin: And then I think it actually carried through a little bit on the palate.
1:05:37
Aaron: I'll go back to that looking for fennel.
1:05:40
Gavin: See, I thought the palate turned fruity.
1:05:42
Gavin: On the palate, I went salty.
1:05:46
Gavin: I think there's a there's a saltiness to it.
1:05:50
Aaron: Maybe it's because it's uh I wrote down tropical fruit kind of thing going on.
1:05:55
Aaron: Okay.
1:05:56
Aaron: What kind of tropical fruit?
1:05:58
Aaron: Now that you said salty, like I'm I'm like salted grilled fruits kind of thing going on.
1:06:06
Aaron: Like I've got like what's this guy?
1:06:09
Aaron: Salt baked salt bake.
1:06:10
Aaron: I don't have the sunglasses or the hairdo.
1:06:14
Aaron: I have none of that, right?
1:06:16
Aaron: Um yeah, like it's it's not quite the potassium-rich banana, right, that you get in a bourbon.
1:06:24
Aaron: I I this is a little more mango papaya, something like that.
1:06:27
Aaron: Um if you've if you've ever been that person though that sprinkles a little bit of salt on your fresh fruit, I could see that there, right?
1:06:37
Aaron: Um I grew up in a family where mom put salt on her watermelon.
1:06:42
Aaron: I thought it was weird, but like she claims it's the best thing there is.
1:06:45
Aaron: So well, there you go.
1:06:47
Aaron: We'll find out how far into this episode mom really wants.
1:06:50
Gavin: She's like, she you told me to stop.
1:06:52
Gavin: Um so on the palate, do you think that banana, or not banana, but the high end.
1:07:04
Aaron: No, no, it was, it was I didn't get the I didn't get the fruit on the nose.
1:07:06
Aaron: I got it on the palate.
1:07:08
Gavin: Okay, okay, all right, all right.
1:07:09
Aaron: Um but as as you head into the finish, I think like on a lot of scotches, like the nose comes roaring back, right?
1:07:18
Aaron: Like there's tons of peat on the finish.
1:07:21
Aaron: And here's where I get a little bit more of the citrusy notes.
1:07:26
Aaron: Okay.
1:07:26
Aaron: Um I actually wrote down sharp citrus, like almost like we always say lemon zest.
1:07:35
Aaron: I actually get more lime zest to this one.
1:07:38
Aaron: Um, and then I also I also pick up a grassiness to it, right?
1:07:42
Aaron: It kind of reminds me of that kind of spring cut grass, right?
1:07:49
Aaron: That Pete often has.
1:07:50
Aaron: Like I write down lemongrass, but like the idea that there's a salt breeze that is blown in and on it, like absolutely get there.
1:07:58
Gavin: It's so funny you said that.
1:08:00
Gavin: I think it was uh it was on your bottle, the Glenmorangie, where I put it was a springtime filled, but I didn't say it.
1:08:08
Gavin: Um on the finish for me, I think it's very earthy.
1:08:14
Gavin: I think that peat really pops.
1:08:17
Gavin: And then I think there's uh the like a salty seaweed that shows up on the finish, and then I think it just lingers, it just kind of lays there for a little bit.
1:08:33
Gavin: Maybe that's the proof, but I just think it comes in.
1:08:37
Aaron: I think the finish here is longer, yeah, than uh on Glenmorangie.
1:08:41
Aaron: Um, but I think most of that length of finish is peat.
1:08:46
Aaron: I think the other stuff kind of I'll say medium until it turns into just peat, and then that peat just I mean I'll get up tomorrow morning and it'll still be on my palate, right?
1:08:57
Aaron: Um I I thought it was interesting that at the beginning of the finish, um, I really thought it was oily.
1:09:03
Aaron: And then right about the time everything else disappears and it goes peat, it turns very dry.
1:09:09
Aaron: Right.
1:09:09
Aaron: And then my mouth loses all the moisture and yeah, it turns real dry on me.
1:09:15
Aaron: Now you need another drink.
1:09:16
Aaron: I I keep going back to it.
1:09:18
Aaron: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
1:09:19
Aaron: All right, all right.
1:09:21
Aaron: Do you have a number?
1:09:22
Aaron: Do you write it down before I tell my?
1:09:24
Aaron: All right, all right.
1:09:25
Aaron: All right.
1:09:28
Aaron: You you're loving both of these today.
1:09:30
Aaron: All right.
1:09:31
Gavin: Why are you looking at my numbers?
1:09:32
Aaron: Well, I've already got mine written down.
1:09:33
Aaron: I'm not even touching my pen.
1:09:34
Aaron: My number is an 83.
1:09:36
Aaron: Um, I think part of the struggle here was that we went from such a beautiful, light, sweet to the exact opposite kind of um whiskey.
1:09:48
Aaron: And so I we we talked about a teenager, a rambunctious teenager turning into a sophisticated adult, and then we drank them in the opposite order.
1:09:59
Aaron: Um I what I'll say is this still has a youthfulness to it that I wish there was a little bit more rounded out, a little bit more depth to some of the stuff.
1:10:14
Aaron: When I begin to think through in my head how this compares to other peated whiskies, is it a good one?
1:10:21
Aaron: Is there anything wrong with it?
1:10:22
Aaron: No, like that that's not what I'm saying.
1:10:25
Aaron: But I I start getting into Peter and I was like, I can think of several that I'm like, I like what they've got going on that this one kind of misses just a little bit.
1:10:33
Aaron: So to me, it's good enough to own a bottle.
1:10:36
Aaron: I'm not I'm not knocking this bottle over to get to um or I I I could move this one out of the way to get to some other ones.
1:10:45
Aaron: So yeah, I'm in the I'm in the low 80s, 83 felt right for me.
1:10:48
Gavin: All right, I'm setting it a 90.
1:10:51
Gavin: I really like this bottle.
1:10:55
Gavin: Um as you can tell.
1:10:57
Gavin: It is peaty, but it's not too punchy and in your face.
1:11:04
Gavin: It is something that um if you had the opportunity to get this bottle, which I don't even know if it's even really available anymore.
1:11:15
Gavin: Um I bought this bottle on a flyer um and didn't know much about this specific expression.
1:11:28
Gavin: So um I'm glad I got it.
1:11:31
Gavin: I love it.
1:11:32
Gavin: I wish I had another bottle, I wish I had a backup.
1:11:36
Aaron: I I mean, I can't I can't argue with the notion that you love it, right?
1:11:42
Aaron: Um, the the volume in the bottle suggests that.
1:11:45
Aaron: Um as as we kind of bring this to a close, I'm gonna encourage you to slide the other glass back out.
1:11:51
Aaron: Um the amount of tropical fruit that shows up all over that one on the palate and finish now is is lights out crazy.
1:12:00
Aaron: So um can I just say one thing?
1:12:03
Aaron: Nope.
1:12:04
Gavin: On this one, on the Glenmorangie.
1:12:07
Gavin: No, the Glenmorangie.
1:12:09
Gavin: It's almost like a firecracker after it's been um like the aftermath of 4th of July.
1:12:18
Aaron: The burnt paper and and gunpowder kind of thing.
1:12:21
Aaron: It's it's not like I don't know.
1:12:23
Aaron: I don't know if I agree with that.
1:12:25
Aaron: Uh take a sip of that though.
1:12:26
Aaron: Like I get now it's now it's turning more perfume.
1:12:30
Aaron: Like juicy fruits, bubblegum.
1:12:32
Aaron: I it's it's so fruity, so fruity now to me.
1:12:36
Gavin: All right.
1:12:38
Aaron: We've reached the end of yet another episode that was unnecessarily long.
1:12:44
Aaron: The idea was like, oh, let's summarize this stuff, and then we got way off into the weeds.
1:12:49
Aaron: So, one, we want to thank you for keeping up with us.
1:12:52
Aaron: Uh, two, we want to encourage you to come back for episode three.
1:12:58
Aaron: Uh, episode three, we have decided we will delve into Pete.
1:13:01
Aaron: Gavin cheated and got there early today.
1:13:04
Aaron: Um, so next week, we're going to cover two different peated whiskies.
1:13:11
Aaron: And we're going to try to find Pete from different places.
1:13:13
Aaron: And let's talk a little bit about um well, one, what is Pete?
1:13:18
Aaron: Two, what does it do to your whiskey?
1:13:20
Aaron: And three, why do we find it so damned delicious?
1:13:26
Gavin: And I what I would say is we'll try to find pistol peat.
1:13:30
Gavin: No, I don't know if we're gonna do that.
1:13:32
Gavin: Don't listen to him.
1:13:34
Gavin: So here we go.
1:13:36
Gavin: Here we go.
1:13:36
Gavin: Until next week.
1:13:39
Gavin: Cheers.
1:13:40
Gavin: And Slanjava.
1:13:41
Gavin: We want to thank you, our noble listener, for joining us.
1:13:48
Gavin: We believe each whiskey has a story, and so do you.
1:13:50
Gavin: So give us your thoughts by leaving a comment.
1:13:52
Gavin: And if you have a whiskey you would like to see us share, let us know.
1:13:55
Gavin: You don't want to miss a single episode, so subscribe to our YouTube channel.
1:13:58
Aaron: And make sure to like and follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok to stay up to date on the Noble Dream.
1:14:04
Gavin: If you find watching us difficult, you can always listen to each episode on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.
1:14:08
Gavin: As always, be noble and enjoy your journey responsibly.