Latest / Ducks Unlimited Podcast / Ep. 498 – Hunting Big-Water Divers Jay Anglin

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Ep. 498 – Hunting Big-Water Divers Jay Anglin · Ducks Unlimited Podcast

• 00:00 Chris Jennings Hey everybody, welcome back to the Ducks Unlimited podcast. I'm your host, Chris Jennings. Joining me today on the DU podcast is Jay Anglin. He has been a guest many, many times. Jay, welcome to the show. Always good to be here, Chris. And also with me, I have Jeremy Ullman. And what we're going to have Jay and Jeremy do today is we're going to talk diving duck hunting. We really don't talk about that enough. I feel like I'm on the show and it's something that a lot of waterfowl hunters do out there. It's serious, it's gear intensive, it's super related to the weather, migration. You really, really have to be in tune to what's going on. And Jeremy just so happens to be a specialist. Jeremy, welcome to the DU podcast. Hey, thanks for having me. So what we're going to do, and we'll do this now, most of our audience knows you, Jay, so we're not going to have to have you reintroduce yourself to our audience. I will give you an opportunity to chime in here on kind of your background in diving duck hunting here in a second. But before we kick this off, I want to allow Jeremy kind of have you kind of introduce yourself to our audience, 00:59 Jeremy Ullman what you do, where you do it, and just who you are. Okay, awesome. Yeah, I'm Jeremy Ullman. I grew up in Michigan. I'm the owner of MI Guide Service and my King Eider Adventures in Alaska. In Michigan, I do lay out boat hunting for divers and sea ducks, fishing during the summer, small mouth, walleye, muskie, and line, I had to Alaska and do the King Eiders and Harlequin and longtails 01:24 Chris Jennings up there. And Jay, you know, kind of explaining you and I have talked about this kind of off the air before we got on is having you be a part of this show, one, because you're kind of up from that area, but you also grew up diving duck hunting too. And you've also hunted with Jeremy many times and you kind of know what he's got going on up there. And that's how we kind of got this show going. But Jay, just kind of describe, you know, your experience with diving ducks 01:46 Jay Anglin hunting and where you did it and where you grew up doing it. Well, you know, I'm from Northern Indiana. I was fortunate enough to grow up on a large lake, a natural lake in Northern Indiana that for, you know, ever attracted large quantities of diving ducks. And while we always had the classic sort of Midwestern, you know, mallard pothole hunting and field hunting for geese and mallards, et cetera, and all that, and we, you know, take the canoe down the creek for wood ducks and stuff. We're talking back far enough where, you know, limits were low, very restrictive, fewer birds. And my brother and I just started watching, you know, predominantly it was gold nigh amazingly enough. And then a lot of Buffalo had a course, occasional blue bill. And we just, we got a few decoys. We started, you know, guys around the lake that were older and quit hunting would give us old decoys. We'd paint them up as, you know, a gold nigh usually, because they stick out really good. And we'd take these little 12, 14 foot little boats that we had, they're little fishing boats. And we didn't even have camo and we, you know, put carpet and burlap sacks, anything we could find on them. And we just started doing it. And, you know, it was sort of like the very beginning of steel shot, hunting water. Then you had to use steel, you know, at that time, you could still hunt with lead in the fields. And it was just, the technology was horrible. And I just had this, to us, they were like these mythical creatures that had to come within, you know, 25 yards to put a, you know, an ethical, you know, shot on them. So we got pretty savvy at it. And, and then, you know, as life, you know, as I got older and had more resources, I was able to travel a little bit more. And then after going to school up in the upper peninsula of Michigan, kind of specialized in it quite a bit, actually. And when I moved back down to Indiana, I just kind of fell into the same old thing that everybody else does around here. And there's very few people that specialize in it, but the people who do, guys like Jeremy, are really, really good at it. And it's a very resource intensive, you know, type of hunting where you have to have the right gear and you have to have a lot of savvy. And of course, you have to really understand how dangerous it can be. So, and I say that, you know, because it honestly is the best days often are when other people would stand on the shore and say, no way I'm going out in a boat in that. So there's a bit of adventure there too, you know, a little adrenaline in that regard. So yeah. And so I was naturally drawn to Jeremy's operation and just the guys I've always sort of admired all these guys that hunt the Great Lakes, you know, out in the open water. And, you know, we get such a variety of birds coming through here, including a ton of different sea ducks, or at least good numbers of several species of sea ducks. And it's just really, it's really, I think, taken, there's a lot more interest in it now than there was when I was younger, let me put it that way. And so, you know, guys like Jeremy are well known in the circles of guys that want to diver hunt in the Midwest, but, you know, there's a lot of guys that are really into it. They just kind of do their thing and don't make a big deal of it, 04:33 Chris Jennings but it's really a specialized thing for sure. Yeah. Jeremy, you know, kind of talking about the specialized in really the conditions that you got to deal with and gear and stuff, kind of, I guess, to get the conversation rolling, just kind of explain what, you know, someone would expect coming up there hunting with you, you know, let's say even, you know, late season, you know, you guys 04:52 Jeremy Ullman are on a bunch of birds. What's that day consists of? Yeah. The day consists of, well, for what I do with clients, I go out early in the morning, a couple hours before sunrise or shooting time, and I go out and set the layout boats, all the decoys, normally I'll set like 120 decoys per layout boat. If we're diver hunting, I'm like St. Clair. And then once I get all that set up, I head back to the boat launch and pick them up. And I tell them to bring, you know, all their waterfall gear. They're good waterproof jacket. I tell most guys to wear waders in the layout boat, just to keep them dry in case there's a little spray. If it's windy, sometimes spray will come in the layout boat and you'll get a little excess water in there. But bibs and waterproof boots were good as well in my good waterproof jacket. And when I pick them up and we'll draw straws or let guys pick who wants to go first, normally run two layout boats at a time. So I'll drop two guys off and once shooting time comes, I give them a radio. I'll give them the radio before shooting time so we can communicate. But I'll pull, it depends on the day, a hundred yards away or a quarter mile away and watch them. And once they knock down a bird, I'll come out and get it for them. Or if it's a cripple, chase down the cripple and finish it off for them. And then once they shoot a couple birds or their limit, we'll switch out. The divers on Lake St. Clair, the limits are pretty low because the canvas backs, it's two canvas backs per person. The bluebills early in the season, or scalp is one and when it switches to two and with the redheads, it's two as well. So guys got to be able to ID birds. That's why I go out right away and pick up their bird and let them know what 06:32 Chris Jennings they have. So they know what's left in their limit. Yeah. So, you know, I've laid out a boat, several times, but I know there's probably a lot of people listening who haven't kind of, and Jay, maybe you could do this as well. Kind of describe what that layout boat hunting scenario feels like. Probably to someone who's, I guess I think about, you know, especially where we hunt down here in Arkansas and Mississippi, it's much more, it's kind of one of those deals, like even at Real Foot, they're putting 12, 14 guys on a blind. I mean, they're playing cards, but layout boat hunting just seems so much more, one, personal because you are out there by yourself 07:06 Jay Anglin and it's just you and the ducks basically. But kind of describe that situation. It's interesting. When I lived in the upper peninsula, Angie and I, I was still finished in school and we lived in this apartment and the guy above me was kind of a duck hunter and he had a layout boat. So one time he let me take it and I took it out. I took it down this, I floated the layout boat down a creek. This is my first time and floated into Lake Superior and anchored throughout some decoys and it got pretty snotty out. And I remember I panicked and I paddled to the beach and I got out and I was like, I'm never getting in one of those again. But when I went with Jeremy, anytime you have a veteran, a pro and somebody that's done it countless times in the ocean and the Great Lakes and big water, it makes it a lot easier. The confidence of having he and somebody else more than likely helping you get in and out. But at the end of the day, I mean, you look back ago, I was just sitting the majority of my lower half anyway, under the water surface. So the layout boats kind of sit in the water. And even though you're on the surface, you know, there's a little bit of a pod underneath that kind of allows you to sit down in the water because the whole idea is you want to be low. So, you know, on the case of Lake St. Clair, it tends to get pretty choppy and not necessarily huge waves all the time, but just chop. And, you know, I was in there for maybe 15 minutes last time I had it with Jeremy and I was at such, I was so calm. I shot a few birds, a couple of redheads and birds are coming in. I'm passing up redheads. And eventually I fell asleep because we'd been grinding pretty hard hunting some marshes, you know, nearby marshes and stuff. And I found that it's just, to me, it's actually very, very relaxing. I don't know how many people feel that way, but everybody I've spoken to in recent years that had never done it, it feels the same way. It's like, once you get in and get over it, you're like, wow, this is really cool. And, but it works so doggone good. I mean, the birds simply, they will flare off once they get in tight enough to actually see you looking at them. But, you know, you're wearing a neutral color clothing that kind of matches your, ideally that's matching the water surface. Now you don't move, obviously. And they come in, the guns land. If you're a righty, it's laying on your right side and you just kind of sit up. There's a little bit of a seat that allows you to sit up easily. And, you know, shots are typically, oh, I don't know, 10 to 30 yards probably. And anything beyond that, you know, most guys that haven't done it aren't going to do it. I mean, it's weird. You're moving, the boat's moving, you're moving, you know, rocking a little bit. And so it does take a little bit of getting used to, but no, Jeremy makes it so easy. And all the guides that do this a lot, you know, if you look at their way, their boats are set up and all the little things, the little ways they, you know, they make it easier on clients and particular people that have never done it. It's really, frankly, it's easy. It's the confidence they give you. And, you know, you're put at ease and you go do it. And when you get done, it's like just, it's really awesome. I can't recommend it 10:05 Chris Jennings enough to anybody that hasn't done it. Yeah. I can't imagine, you know, being out there on the big water, someone who's not probably accustomed to it. That first time, Jeremy, when you're like, all right, get out of the big boat and hop in, you know, hop in the layout below. Have you had some 10:18 Jeremy Ullman clients that are like, no, man, I'm not getting out. Yeah. Most guys are pretty nervous their first time getting in there, especially on the big water, especially when you're set up in the middle of the lake or where you can't see a shoreline. Guys are a little nervous. They're like, you're leaving me in that little boat. I'm like, yeah, I'll be right there. Here's a radio. You can talk to me. But at the end of it, once they shoot a few birds and get used to it, I mean, most people fall in love with it because those birds, they come in so tight a lot of times and you can decoy those big flocks of redheads and cans and blue bills and have them come in and land. If you don't move up and set a lot of times, the big flocks will sit down right in front of you. You can watch them on the water swimming around. And a lot of times they go right to sleep, especially on migrating days. They'll come in and land and tuck their head back behind their wing 11:02 Chris Jennings and fall asleep. That's interesting. You know, you'd kind of mentioned the birds now. Last year you had Jay all spun up because Jay does the migration alerts for us for ducks.org and you had Jay all spun up because he, I think he used you a couple of times for different ones, but he was calling me like, man, there are so many diving ducks pouring into the Great Lakes area right now, like certain areas that you were hunting in. Can you kind of talk about that and what kind of, I guess, how do you judge that when you're saying, oh man, there's a bunch of birds here? Like are you out there scouting every day? Are you seeing them when you're hunting or how exactly are you judging by saying, man, there's a bunch of diving ducks here? Because you've got such big bodies of water. 11:43 Jeremy Ullman You know, there's so much area for them to go to. Yeah, Lake St. Clair is about 26 miles across, so it's a big body of water. I work with a few other guides on the lake and have a few other buddies that live on the lake, so I'll get reports from them with their binoculars where the birds are going. And especially when I'm out there hunting, I can watch and see where the birds are trading back and forth and what areas they're using and where they're feeding and where they're spending the night. Because a lot of times I'll get up and move to different areas throughout the day. And with the divers, I mean, on a good weather day, they'll move all day long. It's not like puddle ducks where you got to hunt the first hour or two or the last hour or two. These divers move all day long. So do you do like later in the day hunts or are you typically sticking with mornings? I go out in the mornings for the day. It just depends on how the birds are flying and the clients and what birds they want and how their shooting is. Some guys will be done in five minutes in the layabout. Some guys are sitting there trying to pick out a bull can or trying to pick out a trophy redhead or a trophy blue bill. So it just depends on the hunter. Some guys want to limit, some guys want a specific bird, so they'll sit there and watch birds fly through the decoys all day. So some days I'm out there from sun up till sun down, some days I'm done in an hour. And what are you seeing that's drawing those big numbers of diving ducks there? They've always been here it seems like, at least since I can remember. They use Lake St. Clair and the Great Lakes. Lake St. Clair I think holds a lot of them because it's a lot shallower than most the Great Lakes around it. So it's great for them to feed. They don't have to dive down as far and there's a bunch of wild celery and different things they feed on, zebra mussels and gobies that 13:27 Chris Jennings they feed on all day long. And Jay and I had this conversation last year when he was doing one of the Migration Update podcasts. You guys stayed fairly warm last fall and what you were running into, which was interesting, was the ducks were being pushed out by fishermen because when the fishermen are out on the lake it seems to be kind of pushing it. How long does that typically last? I mean if you guys have warmer weather and there's, you know, are guys out there wildlife fishing all through the winter? They will be. Yeah as long as there's open water there will be guys out there fishing. And that's one thing that will push those diving ducks around that region for sure is just continual boat traffic. Jay, can you kind of speak to that? You talked about that last year a little bit where you were getting reports and probably from Jeremy and some other guys up there where it was just like there's so much boat traffic because it's so warm. You know having a hard 14:15 Jay Anglin time really pinpointing these large numbers of birds. Well that's occurring all over and it's not, I mean Lake St. Clair is exceptional there. I think there's, last I checked there's more boats registered in that township than I think any other township in the U.S. I mean there's an incredible number of boats in the U.S. side of Lake St. Clair but and obviously a ton of those are anglers. But you know the Great Lakes in general, all these big inland lakes like the lake I grew up on, Lake Tippecanoe in northern Indiana, Lake Wawa Sea, some of those bigger lakes, Lake Max and Cuckee. The number of anglers that are fishing late now, you know guys have started to fish for bass, even largemouth, you know, jigging into November. And of course muskie anglers will fish. You know I had a guy one time I went out and broke ice for an hour and a half with my lund to create a hole with our mutual friend Josh Lance and we turned around there was a guy trolling muskies in the cracks I had made in the ice and that was December. So it's happening everywhere and I think what that's done is a couple things. It's made the peak migration times when you have fresh birds really important for a lot of guys that dive or hunt. Obviously you're out if you're out in the middle of Lake Michigan or something it's a little different because they're just going to bounce around for months. But I think also it's pushed birds, excuse me, it's pushed birds out of some of those sort of secondary migration areas such as these inland lakes for the most part. And so now I think that's one of the reasons why these hot spots like Western Lake area, you know, Lake St. Clair, parts of Lake Michigan, Lake Ontario, I think that's why some of those areas have like that many more divers. There's not just more ducks it's just they're more concentrated in those areas where they get bothered more frequently by boat traffic. So but anyway yeah it's a huge issue I think all over. It's not just Lake St. Clair. I just think Lake St. Clair is probably if I had to guess one of the 16:12 Jeremy Ullman worst places for it unfortunately. Jeremy you're just kind of shaking your head do you? I mean you're seeing that all season long aren't you? Yeah there's muskie fishermen out there all the time just trolling for muskie. There's walleye guys, bass guys, perch guys, it's all fall. So once they roost at night they'll roost in big flocks a lot of times and you'll see first thing in the morning the whole sky will get black as soon as all the fishermen get up and start kicking them out and all go land in the middle of the lake. But it's amazing how many birds will get 16:40 Chris Jennings off first thing in the morning once the boat traffic starts. I actually ran into that kind of a funny diving duck story or diving duck hunting story. I borrowed a layout boat from a buddy of mine up on Kentucky Lake and brought it down to Mississippi and we were hunting an ox bow on the Mississippi River. Me and I had a couple guys with me and we were just kind of taking turns. We had that one boat and then I was going back and forth with the main boat and when we had decoys out I mean it was obvious what we were doing and this was like first week of January in Mississippi and there was a guy that literally came almost right through our decoy spread with a spider rig for crappie and I'm like what are you doing man? He's like what are you doing? He had no, he could not figure out that is such a foreign idea for hunters in this region like the layout boat in the middle of the lake you know that is not how they hunt down here and but he didn't even know what I was doing and I'm like what are you doing? It's January you're a crappie fishing sure enough came right across the front of the decoy spread so I can definitely relate to that. You know let's talk about the actual the technicalities of diving duck hunting real quick. The first thing kind of popped in my head because you mentioned Jay you had mentioned getting good lethal shots on these hardy diving ducks especially back in the 80s when you were doing it was probably a lot more difficult with that steel but Jeremy is there anything that you recommend for the guys who are coming to hunt with you or you like hey man this is what you want to be shooting these big 18:08 Jeremy Ullman cans or these you know big redheads that are coming in? Yeah shot wise I mean tungsten's going to be the best if guys want to purchase tungsten shells you know the TSS or the 7s or 9s because you get such a more dense pattern you have that many more pellets hitting the bird and the head especially once you cripple one or knock it down out of the sky a lot of times you can shoot one at 20 yards it'll hit the water get up and still try and fly away or dive down you'll never see it again. So tungsten's definitely the best bismuth's the second best and then steel I mean I don't lay out boat I like fours because you get a lot more BBs in there but the bismuth I'm real happy with 18:45 Chris Jennings that three five mix by boss is a great shot. Yeah and you recommend fours on steel is that a lot of that because you're taking really close shots and you just want that larger pattern and you're not 18:56 Jay Anglin as worried about that knockdown power of like BBs or something. Exactly yeah most of the shots are fairly close and you want as dense of a spread as you can get. Yeah that makes sense and Jay about the same with you I mean is that what you shoot when you typically diving duck hunt? Yeah so I would shoot threes or fours probably I've hunted in Maine for eider and I think Jeremy you've obviously guide eider in the Pacific Ocean and I think I bumped up to twos and threes out there but and I think I was running I think in the layout situation on St. Clair Jeremy I don't know what your preferred choke is I think when we hunted we had IC and maybe might have put mod and I don't remember but if you're doing your job right you've got to spread like he's using your shots are probably going to be pretty a cream puff I mean in your face flare outs where you've got a pattern about the size of a pizza pan at like 20 yards you're good to go so you know I think yeah fours definitely the thing is now you know even with even the cheapest steel a three inch mag load of 12 gauge steel ounce and a quarter steel fours is gosh I've dropped an awful lot of geese with them when I'm out duck hunting you know it's just so much better back when I started it you could sit you could drain the box you could just sit there load load load and keep shooting the one that's swimming away and it just was like you're shooting sand at it so yeah I definitely think the what he said about the tungsten in bismuth is definitely if you're going for a trophy and it's your one shot you might as well spend the money on the best stuff for sure but for the meat and potato guys like me I'm gonna stick with steel fours and threes myself 20:45 Chris Jennings so Jeremy do you do you have conversations with people before you put them in the boat about I mean it we're all talking about these close shots and a cream puff type shot but it's difficult shooting out I mean people struggle hunting out of layout blinds on the ground not moving let alone in a layout boat where it's rocking back and forth are you having conversations with your clients before you throw them in there like hey man like take your time 21:19 Jeremy Ullman let them get close like what are you saying to these people yeah I talked to them first um the main thing with a layout boat is no one wants to sit up when the birds are coming into the decoys because if you sit up too late then by the time you swing your gun up and get on them they're going to be past you if they aren't going to commit or if you sit up too late they're going to land in the decoys then they'll be swimming around in the decoys and it's hard to get them back up so a lot of times I tell guys once the birds are coming in once they reach the edge of the decoys that's when you want to sit up and then take your shot you know as soon as they flare up or whenever 21:53 Chris Jennings you can shoot and you mentioned both of you guys have mentioned sea ducks you know ending up up there in the great lakes area region how often are you running into you know big numbers of sea 22:04 Jeremy Ullman ducks up there yeah I'm like St Clair we get some sea ducks we get some scoters and longtails I take guys out on Lake Huron to hunt the longtails and scoters there's a lot more longtails and scoters on Lake Huron and Lake Michigan than there is Lake St Clair but I mean those numbers are pretty great most days if the clients can hit them they can shoot 22:26 Chris Jennings their limit fairly quick with longtails yeah do you have guys specifically saying man I want to come up there and hunt longtails on Lake Michigan or Lake Huron or you know is that a very specific 22:37 Jeremy Ullman hunt yes exactly yeah I get some guys that come up for one day and you know want to shoot longtails most of the time I get guys you know from Montesset that come for three days so we'll do two days on 22:47 Chris Jennings Lake St Clair for divers and one do one of those days on Lake Huron for the sea ducks Jay mentioned it briefly that you know and you had mentioned as well you also do you also guide in the Pacific for sea ducks kind of talk about that and explain what that situation is like sounds like it's pretty 23:02 Jeremy Ullman wild hunt yeah the Bering Sea is a whole different animal up there on St Paul Island yeah it's about 350 miles into the ocean just a 15 mile long island so it's a rock in the middle of the ocean and you hunt those you can't hunt out of a layout boat up there that current's way too strong the way it's normally too strong it's it's not safe to do layout boat hunts up there so we hunt out of big boats or bigger fiberless boats with boat lines or use zodiacs we can launch off the beach inflatable boats and when there they don't get much pressure so most of the time I'll run six to 12 decoys tie up 100 yard line and have the six to 12 decoys on there just float out in the ocean and they'll come in and decoy so you don't anchor anything yeah how many trips like that do you do um up there the king eiders show up about Christmas so I start taking the first clients about Christmas and the season ends January 22nd out there okay so you just basically transfer your entire operation from Michigan you know over to the Bering Sea correct yeah I keep different trucks and boats up there and decoys one have a few guides and a chef it works for me out there 24:13 Jay Anglin because there's no restaurants or anything out there you gotta do everything yourself awesome Jay have you done that hunt I have not and um he called me last last fall and I was awfully tempted to do it I could see in the very near future where that will become a reality but I know quite a few people who have done it with Jeremy and with other guys up that you know out that way and it's a pretty remarkable thing I mean you know if you've watched like the deadliest catch and seeing how snotty the water can get you know in the Pacific the North Pacific they're hunting in that sometimes like stuff that's again the Great Lakes can get really ugly but you know I guess when you can see the shore it helps a little you see a smokestack on a power plant like you said 350 miles you're on a 15 mile long rock that's that right there's enough adventure once you just get to the rock you're like okay this is a serious adventure throwing a 25:07 Chris Jennings little duck hunting yeah sign me up I'll be out there soon enough for sure that's awesome yeah I'd imagine the flights getting up there can get a little uh a little dicey I saw on your website and it's like you know three to five days depending on flights like you could get bumped and you know just weather up there can just be a massive problem it is yeah it's always windy up there I mean most days it's going 40 50 I've seen it blow sustain 90 up there wow that's rolling now you know getting back to your Michigan side of the operation the weather can get pretty nasty up there pretty quick too what are you looking for in that when you get up in the morning are you you know there are days where you're just like nope we're not going like are you having to 25:46 Jeremy Ullman tell clients like yeah we we can't do it today um luckily with Lake St. Clair there's enough different bays and shoreline where I can tuck in tight and get out of that wind or the waves so that's the biggest thing is the wind on Lake St. Clair so you just have to play the wind and hunt that protected shoreline or bay and uh set up close enough where it's safe to hunt I normally don't cancel any hunts in Michigan unless it's lightning because there's normally somewhere where we can hide even if it's blowing 50 I can go out and set up 450 feet offshore and have six inch 26:21 Chris Jennings waves not even oh that's cool yeah if you can and I'm sure the ducks are probably looking for to get out of that wind as well so that's probably more of a benefit than it is you know a detriment 26:31 Jeremy Ullman correct yeah I mean ideally I'd love it to blow 20 30 every day out of the north or northwest then I'd be happy but there's days I mean there's still days in the fall where it's 70 degrees and there's 26:43 Chris Jennings zero wind it's flat calm like glass and you can still shoot when it's a ducks yeah I was getting ready to ask when you mentioned you wanted 20 to 30 you know down here where I hunt we want you know decent wind blue skies you know north wind that's kind of what what we look for in a in a great day 27:02 Jeremy Ullman is that what exactly are you looking for when you're diving duck hunting for diver hunting you want the nastiest weather possible you want it snowing sleeting blowing sideways stuff you 27:13 Jay Anglin don't want to be out in that's when the birds fly all day nice what about you jay same thing oh yeah absolutely you know my one of my greatest hunts ever buddy of mine who you know I went to school together got our biology degrees together and he worked in Alaska into the crabber and we were on Harsens Island which Jeremy's you know very familiar with and in Lake St. Clair and we went out it was it was a day when a lot of people weren't going out and we took my lund out and waves were cranking into one of the bays where I was actually hitting bottom in the troughs and but we got one of those leaves that he referred to and the birds were just piling in migrants it was actually a big it was one of the last grand passages true grand passages in the late 90s and it was incredible but the problem was once we were done we had to wait four hours to get back because you know it's a tailing sea and my boat wasn't big enough so unfortunately some guys didn't make it through that day very near us and so we watched c130s and coast guard shoppers run grids and looking for victims you know so it was it was probably the most amazing hunt I've ever been on and it was probably the nastiest weather I've ever 28:22 Chris Jennings experienced in a boat so yeah you know that says it all right there I guess yeah we've definitely alluded to it I know and both of you have that water up north you know I think people who hunt around here and these small I mean you're hunting timber you're not exactly afraid of the water but up there you know it's something to pay attention to and you know just constantly being a reminder that safety should be the utmost importance speaking to that Jeremy and just 28:48 Jeremy Ullman curious you know what kind of boat are you running up there on that big water I have a 21 foot Polarcraft Outlander it's a center council it handles water great in line it allows me to hold 29:00 Chris Jennings 250 decoys or so two layout boats in my rig and five guys six guys if needed are you getting those those layout boats in the boat or you have like an attachment on the side where you can you can 29:12 Jeremy Ullman hook them up I pull them right in ratchet trap them down it's easier to make longer runs when I used to run it too man I would tow it but that's a lot harder and nasty weather to tow it out there 29:26 Jay Anglin I was I was really impressed with the way that boat handled that day we were out and it was it was a little sporty nothing he's not seen you know a lot but boat handled it well you know and that's one thing I would say for anybody that wants to like dive into this thing do not just go out and buy you know something you find on you know the classifieds and think you're going to go out and do this stuff because you're not it's not going to end well so you really do have to have the right equipment and that's probably doing this podcast today I would say my one thing I would want people to remember is and I'm sure Jeremy would concur you really have to have the right stuff most days you're not going to get a second chance so I would assume Jeremy you would agree 30:06 Jeremy Ullman with that right yeah I would agree with that 100% the main thing is experience out there too and being able to read the weather and know where it's going to be safe and where you can hunt and where you can't hunt and keep an eye on that and land boat control when you have that many decoys set up with that many anchor lines and layout boats if you hook your prop on there and your transoms face in the wind and waves you can fill your boat and sink it quick that's the main thing is boat control out there and knowing how to drive your boat in those type of conditions and through all 30:36 Chris Jennings the decoys and ropes and lines and getting guys in and out of layout boats safely yeah I'd imagine the amount of gear that's in the boat would just cause a problem with an inexperienced boat driver for sure correct so now you know one thing I want to do before I get both of you guys out of here because this podcast is going to air late summer and both of you guys are also fishing guides as well and I've done this with Jay the last few times mainly because I'm always curious to see how the fishing is going but I know Jeremy you are also guiding up there for everything bass musky sturgeon anything walleye anything up there how is the fishing this late summer and 31:17 Jeremy Ullman and what are you telling people you know going into the early fall yeah right now walleye fishing's slowing down a little bit you can still go out there and catch your own net but you have to work for them same with the perch fishing the musky fishing's been great I mean some days we can catch 10 15 musky in a day some days it's a handful the sturgeon fishing's been phenomenal lately um most nights we're catching seven eight nine ten sturgeon a lot of big ones too that's 31:44 Chris Jennings awesome now just mentioning that is there an opportunity to do a cast and blast up there like can someone come up there and go diving duck hunting with you in the morning and then go musky 31:53 Jeremy Ullman fishing in the afternoon I don't do that because it's too much work for my boats to pull all the decoys and rig it back and forth once duck season starts I put all my fishing gear away it's strictly duck season cool so it's possible it's just not possible with you correct yeah I'd be happy to take you back on in but there's other guides out if you want to go musky fishing for a day I could 32:16 Jay Anglin set you up with a different guide to go fishing awesome Jay how about you how's the fishing up there well first things first I think last year your biggest sturgeon was 80 82 inches I think wasn't it was 82 yep good lord that's a monster yeah I just remember that number because it's so ridiculous but nonetheless uh fishing this is my favorite time late summer early fall it's one of my favorite times of year it's a transition time so I have warm water species to fish for cold water species and sometimes both the same day I think most of the Great Lakes guys would confer with that that are river guides anyway so yeah you can fish for smallmouth fish for muskies northerns you can fish for trout you know summer run steelheads early salmon we have kings and coves coming in here in the next couple weeks so it's a lot of fun you know and it's uh it's still kind of warm so you're not like you know like you know winter steelheading when you're bundled up like you're you know you're going to the Arctic so uh yeah it's easy and uh uh it's it's a great way to get out and just guarantee you catch something because some days one species doesn't bite you 33:14 Chris Jennings just switch to the other one so Jeremy you know lots of diving ducks some guys don't really prefer eating diving ducks some people do uh you know canvasbacks used to be one of the most sought after uh you know waterfowl species uh to eat what are you doing with the ducks and do you have a 33:30 Jeremy Ullman specific you know recipe that you use for diving ducks oh i use all sorts of different recipes um i prefer diving ducks over puddle ducks actually at least the canvasbacks and redheads the sea ducks aren't as good to eat normally i keep them and make snack sticks or sausage something like that but um the redheads and canvasbacks are delicious ruddy ducks back in the market days canvasbacks were worth the most ruddy ducks were worth the second most so ruddy ducks are great table fare a lot of people don't think so but i love them um the main thing is i like to soak them in water or milk you know for a day or two get a lot of blood out and when i make poppers i'll air fry them i'll just put barbecue sauce barbecue on um make tacos i make uh burritos 34:19 Jay Anglin different egg rolls i love them nice jay how about you well you know it's funny because i've always had these conversations with people around here and so ringnecks we get a ton of them in northern indiana you know you shoot a lot of those in the marsh too they're phenomenal especially the ones that just come in uh you know they feed predominantly on you know wild celery and sago pondweed and rice and stuff like that in minnesota and then they come down here but yeah canvasbacks and redheads it's hard to beat i guess if i had to put them i'd probably put them right at the top against just about everything and all the other ones you know people talk about how you can't eat them they you know what you just have to like anything else do a little prep and and uh you know not you might not want to roast one per se but you might you know do what he's talking about as far as the poppers and all that so yeah when i was at his place i think you air fried i want to say it was a mix of stuff and uh my gosh yeah it was phenomenal you mean i you know i could have been wood duck for all i knew i didn't i didn't eat a piece and go uh diver so i i always tell people i'm like you know you've heard from grandpa or somebody that they're no good but you've never tried it so you know uh there it's duck it tastes great to me so i 35:26 Jeremy Ullman love it too awesome yeah that's that's my easiest recipe is just put them in sesame oil soy sauce minced garlic um hot sauce of your choice or fresh jalapenos let them sit in that for a day i'm going 35:38 Chris Jennings to throw them in the air fryer for eight to ten minutes at 375 and they come out great nice are you putting the whole breast in there or kind of slicing them up into strips whole breast cool that's interesting recipe i'll have to try that that's the way jay awesome now before i get you guys out of here i got one last thing jeremy if you don't mind let our audience know where they can find you if they want to look up your guide service and my guide service um or you know any ins any social media handles you have that maybe you post images or anything like that just kind of let our audience know where they can find you yeah i have a website it's myguideservice.com all together same with facebook instagram it's mi guide service all put together well cool hey guys i really appreciate you guys coming on today i think this is a great kind of an introduction conversation to diving duck hunting and the reason why we wanted to do this was open the door for come fall jeremy we'd love to have you back on jay obviously you'll be back on doing the migration stuff so we'll have you on but jeremy would be great to bring you back on the du podcast and talk about you know what you're doing up there what the conditions are looking like and what the ducks are looking like thanks for having me man yeah appreciate it awesome guys thank you i'd like to thank my guest jeremy ulman owner and operator of mi guide service for joining us today talking about his operation talking about diving duck hunting up in the great lakes i also like to thank jay anglin for coming on the show and providing his expertise on hunting the great lakes i'd like to thank our producer chris isaac for putting the show together and getting it out to you and i'd like to thank you the listener for joining us on du podcast and supporting wetlands conservation