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Marketing as a therapist? · Brilliant Minds?

• Olivia: Welcome back everyone to the Brilliant Minds podcast, Brains Banter and Being Human. Olivia. This is... ⁓ This podcast is for entertainment, informational, educational purposes only. Although the hosts are licensed therapists, this podcast is not a substitute for professional mental health services. Listening to this podcast does not create a therapist-client relationship. Andrea: Andrea. Olivia: ⁓ do have day jobs, but this is currently nighttime. So are on the prowl. You have been warned. I'm really trying to like change up that like initial disclaimer because like I'm getting tired of saying it. So I can't even imagine how people must feel hearing it, listening to it. Andrea: you If you are experiencing mental health concerns, please seek help from a qualified mental health professional in your area. If you are in crisis, call or text a suicide prevention line in your country immediately. In the U.S., you can call or text 988 or use online chat at 988lifeline.org. I like it. I know. Yeah. Olivia: We're going to talk a little bit today about marketing and really like what that looks like and what that entails as a therapist. We talked a little bit about this in our last podcast. ⁓ talked a little bit about it. So you might hear a little bit like repeat stuff, ⁓ I think it's such a like critical, not critical. I think it's such an important skill and aspect in the career, but it is. ⁓ Andrea: Mm-hmm. Olivia: Generally, I find not part of people's skill sets when their therapist is like marketing themselves. I think it's kind of like a curious thing to talk about. Andrea: ⁓ yeah, for sure. think we've mentioned this so much in and out of the podcast, but like grad school, business development, private practice, support, ⁓ are not classes you take. Olivia: And also let's zoom back even further. Just just so you guys know, if you don't already know, people who are becoming therapists have been through some things. They are not like getting through childhood scot free or not having much of lived experience like they've seen some things for themselves, not like vicariously through clients. So ⁓ Andrea: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Olivia: therapists that are coming into the field, they've seen some things, they're working on their stuff, they're generally not going to be ones to promote themselves. Andrea: ⁓ for sure, for sure. And... Olivia: Like I feel like those things go together, you know? Andrea: Yeah, yeah, I would agree with that. And I also want to put this caveat out there with this conversation. You and I are not marketing experts. have, right? We are talking about this topic very like generally, and maybe some of it will sound kind of like, I don't know, exploratory. Maybe we're still trying to figure it out. So by no means are we experts, but it is like, I think we've experienced this. does. Olivia: ⁓ yeah. Andrea: feel weird to promote ourselves. I think it's feeling better as we're doing this podcast for sure. But even in the beginning of my career, I didn't wanna do private practice because the marketing of myself felt weird. I was already doing it in my other job and that even felt weird. Olivia: It is such an odd thing. because it's oddly nuanced, because we're referencing this idea of it's challenging for somebody like you or me or anyone else in the field, I think just generally, to be able to talk about themselves. that much and that positively. Like that's kind of a brutal combo. And then on top of that, there's all these like other nuances. And this is part of what we were talking about in the last episode, which is kind of what led us to talk about it for this episode, which is there's so many different, I guess, things to highlight of your experience, maybe the kinds of clients you want to work with, maybe the approaches that you use. maybe any like self-identifiers that you want clients to know about you upfront or right out of the gate. So there's like all these other nuanced things that go into marketing yourself that I think can like easily get glossed over and not thought about. But I thought a long time, like a long time, probably almost maybe I would argue too much about whether I would self-identify as having ADHD in how I marketed myself. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Olivia: Cause for me, that was a huge shift. I had never self-identified anything in my bio. I had talked about people, like experience that I had generally about my work in mental health, but I never like marketed myself, like put information out there about myself, out of the gate that self-identified anything. So for me, that was a really big step. But there's other therapists out there that almost like, I feel like maybe over self-identify and that's kind of like a lot to me. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I Olivia: But maybe that's just my bias. don't know. Yeah, it's just interesting. Andrea: One, think in addition to that, there's nuance as there is with everything, right? Like I think, that you're a queer person or queer therapist, I think is so important. Like if there is a queer therapist and they like put that in their bio, I do think that's important. But I will be honest, I with that. Like I do identify as a queer person. ⁓ Like do have a queer identity. ⁓ Olivia: Yeah. Andrea: However, that isn't something I put out there. That isn't something that's in my bio, but I think for certain niches or certain populations, it is important. So it's a weird like, same with the ADHD, right? Like if that's the population maybe you wanna work with or like specify in, maybe that is important. Maybe it's not, right? Like there's so much nuance when it comes to that particular piece and like showing who you are in a marketing world. Olivia: Hmm. Right. Right. Or even like we've talked about this on the podcast and that applies to the idea of marketing too, which is there are trends in the field. And so sometimes something becomes more marketable about yourself, your approach, the kinds of clients you work with, whatever. just because it's trendy, which is also such a bizarre thing. Like, and we, you know, we talked about that too, like, Andrea: Mm-hmm. Olivia: why there's trends in the field, like that kind of feels bizarre, but how it also plays out in marketing, know, having a niche of working with neurodivergence, like that's more marketable. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And I think as we're learning and building our private practice, we are seeing the positives of niching down and like the things that are, the outcome of niching down is you do get those clients, right? Is you do kind of, you are more marketable in that way. You maybe can charge a little bit more, offer a service that maybe other people can't offer. And interesting. And what I'm also noticing is that it doesn't, stick me in a corner either necessarily. Yeah, it makes me more marketable towards neurodivergence, but I'm also noticing like not all my clients are, you we're still getting, you and I take insurance and so there's different types of marketing I think that ends up happening. There's like the natural marketing of being paneled with an insurance provider. just automatically a lot of the times get put on their directory. With those, with Olivia: Hmm. Great. Andrea: With that level of marketing, you're gonna get every client basically under the sun that's like, ⁓ they sound good and they take my insurance. Right? And then there's more specific levels of marketing like our website and developing search engine optimization skills within that. And that is where you really want to put neurodivergence or if you work with the queer population or if you work specifically with Trump, that's where you want to put those words. that's a challenge to learn is like, okay, we do got to figure out what this looks like for us. Olivia: Right, yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. mean... don't know the best way to ask this question, but you think that somebody creating a niche or specialty in the field or like a specific ability to market themselves, do you think that happens naturally through the course of somebody's career? Andrea: I would say so. I think so. I think I've seen it happen. I mean, it's definitely happened for myself. Olivia: Yeah, I would say so too. It's like, I feel like it's natural for myself. I'm just thinking about, you know, like, remember getting into the field and so many people, because I interviewed a lot of different places, you one of the super popular questions was like, what's your specialty? Like, what's your niche? And I think when you're new in the field, you really struggle to know how to answer that question for a variety of reasons. ⁓ Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah, right. Olivia: But I think like for me, I struggled to answer that question because it was like, well, there's so many different kinds of clients I haven't worked with. So I don't know if those types of clients are ones that I'd want to work with long-term or not. And so all I could go off of was like my experience up to that point in the field. And I didn't really think about my lived experience as like potential avenue to help me narrow down what kinds of clients I'd want to work with, which like pro tip. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Right, right. Mm-hmm. Right. Olivia: you should probably like do if you're newer to the field or you're an intern or whatever the case may be. Like if you're thinking about, well, what are you interested in in your specialty? Like think about your own lived experience and like see how that might relate to clients you'd want to work with. But I digress. I felt like so much pressure to have a specialty. Like so much pressure. Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think I've said this before on the podcast, like my school made me pick like a therapeutic orientation too. And so I think that added to that, which it was like, ⁓ I need to figure this out. Yeah, but then on the other hand, and I actually saw like a reel about this the other day from a therapist creator and she was talking about noticing difference between therapists that of start out in bigger practices like Olivia: Mmm, it was like hand in hand. ⁓ Andrea: community mental health or like group practices or clinics versus people who like go right into maybe a private practice or a niche type group. And it was really interesting how she was like talking about the value of both and how it can be hard to navigate which direction to take, but how valuable the like community mental health space was because you did get an opportunity for the most part to just be like. what are all these options? What can I explore? if you get that chance and not burn out before you're done there. ⁓ I mean, I know that's what helped me. I went into the field really wanting to do something really niche. I actually don't know if you know this about me, but I, out grad school, really wanted to work with foster and adopted children, but that was what I wanted to do, like very specifically. And... Olivia: Hmm. real trick. ⁓ Andrea: And there's a long story behind that, but I went in and started doing like family and child therapy at a clinic and realized that like, it wasn't quite what I wanted to do. And then I started gravitating towards the neurodivergent kids and the neurodivergent teens and their parents. that's kind of where it came from me. So it was like, I started niche and then I got big and then I got niche again. Olivia: That's so funny. I really... I mean, feel like you probably already know this about me, but when I was like first in college, like college, bachelor's college, not like master's, I knew I wanted to be a therapist, but I actually originally wanted to work with kids. Andrea: but it's been helpful. I actually don't think I knew that. Olivia: Yeah, and never forget the supervisor named was Sue. And she goes, you realize you're going to be working with families, right? Andrea: hehe Olivia: And I immediately got the ick. I was like, don't want to do that. Andrea: Mm. That's funny. Olivia: I was like, but right when she said that it clicked. was like, ⁓ yeah, I would only see the kid for like an hour a week. And obviously a significant portion of their life is like outside of their control, their home environment, their parent. I mean like so much of it. And then I also realized I just want to like save all of the children and I would totally burn out. Andrea: Yeah. Yeah, there's a reason I stopped very quickly. Olivia: Yeah, yeah. So that's like, that's kind of where I started. And then I'm to tell you the other like wacky specialty. I'm still considering it actually. I will say I'm still considering it. Maybe full niche, but like ⁓ maybe, maybe marketing. I got towards the ⁓ end my and I was like transitioning to my master's and I thought it could be cool. ⁓ Andrea: Okay. Olivia: to be a therapist for therapists. Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: to be like therapist prime, you know what I mean? And so still like kicking that around in the back. I don't think that would be like a full specialty. Like that would be all my clients. ⁓ and I also don't feel like, I feel like I need more street cred too, like more experience to be able to like niche in that way, to be marketable. ⁓ I think there's actually like a really decent. Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. Right, right. Yeah. Olivia: market for that, because I don't see many therapists market for that. Andrea: Yeah. No, no, you're right. think have seen therapists before and especially after becoming a supervisor, I will be honest, sometimes it's really hard to not turn into supervisor mode like when stuff comes up. That's been my one challenge, but we can always talk about that another time. ⁓ But right, I don't see that as a very specific... Olivia: Yeah. Yeah. Andrea: niche all like or not like called out like that yeah Olivia: But yeah, but it's so needed. Yeah, yeah, not like, hey, are you a therapist? I got you. Yeah. Yeah. Like I said, I think like down the route, down the line, I'm still kicking it around. I think it'd be fun to have like a couple of clients. Definitely. Like I said, definitely not a whole caseload, but like that could be like a fun demographic I feel like to work with. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. Right. Yeah, yeah, that'd be interesting. Olivia: My specialty kind of like found me in a way, at least my current specialty with neurodivergence and drama is like, I started super broad and diverse. I was a huge range of clients and I was, it was really good, super helpful, loved it, learned so much. ⁓ over time I saw less and less clients as I was doing like supervising and all these other things. And then. ⁓ I remember just like sitting back, I mean gosh, it was probably like a year and a half ago at this point, maybe two years ago. I remember just sitting back and being like, yo, like all of my clients, I can kind of fit into like these two to three categories. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Olivia: Hmm, I think this is telling me something about myself. Andrea: ⁓ Yeah, no, that's so true. Olivia: And I think to be honest with you, why I think specialties and like things that you can market about yourself, I think they have, they can happen really naturally through your experiences and they kind of find you. ⁓ to be honest, I think that was ultimately what made it easier for me to self identify as having ADHD as a part of a marketing aspect because when I looked at my caseload, that was really reflective. Andrea: Mm Yeah. Right. Right. Olivia: of like who I was working with. And so was like, man, I really love who I'm working with. This is like so cool. It's so meaningful and fulfilling to me. I'm learning so much from these people. I think I should, know? And then sometimes I wonder, like you were saying, ⁓ I don't feel like when ⁓ market ourselves in this way, like I'm backed into a corner. Sometimes I feel like I am. I don't think I actually am. I think I'm just like scared that I am backed into a corner. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think even before like fully self identifying and self marketing as ADHD, you know, like we were still getting clients that were ADHD or neurodivergent, right? So I think that there's something to be said about just our vibe, right? Like that's just, and that's kind of what's going to find us. Yeah. And Olivia: Does it make any sense? Yeah, it's just like what we're putting out there. Yeah. Andrea: know, if I think about marketing, marketing is something just like, I have had to learn on my own a lot, especially with, you know, I owned a photography business before owning our practice. And it was a challenge to figure out like wanting to niche down into that. And in the photography world, it's like, you either do weddings or you do other things. And I was like, well, I don't wanna niche that. And I still don't niche that, but what I've decided to do is like, ⁓ I'm noticing that I actually really like neurodivergent photography and neurodivergent friendly or disability friendly photography. And so I've niched into that. And that doesn't even like back me into a corner because there are still people that come to me that are just like, can I get family photos? I'm like, yeah, sure. Why not? Like, even though that's not like what I do on a consistent basis, like I will do that because if I like you, I'll do it. And I think that's kind of similar. Lovely Olivia over here. ⁓ But it's the same thing with like my clients, you know, in therapy, we offer consultations for a reason. And I think that's a marketable thing too, is that people don't feel like they're stuck with someone where they can, consultations I think are a marketing tool. I think it is part of how we market ourselves is saying like, Olivia: I wonder who you're referencing. Probably. Mmm. Andrea: you know, chat with us, see if we're a good fit. If we're not, move on. Olivia: Just super, like this question just came into my brain. What would you think of idea if somebody, so okay, let me provide a little bit of like background context to people. Usually when you're doing a free consultation with a therapist, they market it as like a 15 minute phone consultation. That's typically what it's marketed as. What would you think of somebody offering a consultation that was 30 minutes? Like specifically, was a that was longer. Cause I know I have, Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: I don't think I've seen so many market that before. Andrea: Honestly, my gut goes to does that person have good boundaries with their work? Olivia: Yeah, I don't know. It's an interesting idea though. Andrea: Cause like, it is, I think the only reason I feel that way is cause like I did a 15 minute consult the other day and it ended up being 25 minutes. Like, you know, but I wouldn't, but I think I'm okay with that because I feel anything over 30 minutes is billable, technically. Olivia: Right. I guess more what I'm saying is I agree. often have consultations that do that. So I'm thinking, well, instead of like kind of accommodating that essentially. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Olivia: of being like 15, maybe like saying like 15 to 30 minutes. You know what I've also seen somewhat related but a little bit different is I have seen somebody that will provide a free initial session. Andrea: Mm-hmm. I have seen that too. I feel like that's enticing to me than a 30 minute in like console. Olivia: It's interesting because I would actually be the inverse. Andrea: Interesting. Olivia: because a consultation still feels like less pressure. An initial session sounds more serious. So even if it was free, it would still feel, I think, just as formal. And to me, mean, this is getting very existential about it because, you know, ⁓ what we do. ⁓ me, I like it almost could enable a... ⁓ Andrea: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Olivia: like a power dynamic or more of a power dynamic that the therapist offered a free initial session, especially if you continue with that therapist. Kind of like knowing that you got like a freebie essentially. I don't know. Like that's a little bit odd. Cause also again, context, usually an initial session you get paid more by insurance companies or people charge more for an initial session. Andrea: Yeah, I can see that. Yeah, I can see that. ⁓ That's a good argument. I think just like the 30 minutes just makes my stomach hurt. I don't know. Like, I would rather say, yeah. Yeah. But yeah, like I don't even do, I don't know. I don't even think I do a full 30 minutes when I do wedding consultations for photography either. Like I think they're usually pretty. Olivia: Like, I will do it of my own free will, but I will not say it out loud to somebody that I do it. What is that? But also like, what is there really to talk about for that long? Andrea: For with photography? ⁓ there is so much. I have done full hour ones. Like people come in with lists of questions for me. Yeah. It can be pretty, it's actually, I think it's a lot more work to do those than it is to do therapy consults. Olivia: Yeah, for a consultation? Interesting. Andrea: Yeah, because I have to talk about my pricing, have to talk about payment plans, I have to talk about backup plans for what happens if I'm sick, like all this stuff. Olivia: which is like what an initial session would be. Like the equivalent essentially. Like the therapy equivalent. Interesting. Interesting. Yeah. Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Interesting. It's, know, everybody gets to do it their own way, right? And I'm curious if anybody's ever actually looked at, I don't know. ⁓ aren't like full of numbers. ⁓ I think it's hard to say like, what the best? know, ⁓ what strategy works for you? Olivia: Yeah, I... Because we have worked so much with folks entering the field, interns, new graduates, like people newly working on their license, all that kind of stuff, what kind of advice would you give somebody? And starting to think about marketing themselves. Andrea: Yeah, the first thing that comes to my mind is be active. So in sense of like networking, being ⁓ on forums, on being active ⁓ on getting feedback from like really exploring where you want. to put your marketing and where you want to invest in yourself. So like really being active in that because putting your website out there and sitting back and letting it happen work. Olivia: Mm. Andrea: And I think, and I've seen this too with some of the associates that I've worked with is the ones that are a little bit more active who are putting themselves into vulnerable positions versus the ones that are just like, all right, I made a website. Now I'm just going to sit back and let it happen. Like the active ones are getting that traction. And like that is just my experience, but I think that's the first thing that comes to my mind ⁓ is be active. Olivia: Mmm, my biggest piece of... I don't know, Suggest, like a suggestion is, because I know this is helpful for me at least, so it's biased in that way, is go look at how other people are marketing themselves. One, it will make you probably feel better about yourself. And then two, it will probably give you some ideas for maybe how to say things or what you like about how they worded something or ⁓ how they made something look or whatever the case may be. I think the more exposure you get to what's out there, you can better identify for yourself what. Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: you're drawn to what you like about it and why. And then two, to couple both of these things that we said, if you're finding these people that you're like, ⁓ I like how you did this thing, I'm gonna, you know, kind of like borrow that or whatever. you've even like proactively identified people that you might actually wanna connect with and network with. Right? So, ⁓ Andrea: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right, Yeah, and I think to continue to layer onto that too, what do you value of your business? Like what are your primary values? What do you want to appear as even? And I think I say that because I think a lot about, have, I do a lot of photography of therapists too. So I know I'm kind of talking from both perspectives here too. talk to a lot of therapists who I do their photos for and a lot of the times they feel this really intense pressure to be on social media and yes, yes, yeah. I think there are a lot of therapists, especially newer therapists in the field who do and even actually older therapists who feel like they need to be like that's how they market. Olivia: As in like more like content creation social media? Blah, no. Andrea: And I think I bring in the values piece because like, if that's not something that feels authentic to you, then you don't have to do that. Social media is not the only means of marketing as a therapist. I think that it can be really powerful, but that's a whole other conversation. And I think we actually have that on our list to talk about in the future. ⁓ creation is its own beast and takes a lot of fucking effort. ⁓ Olivia: It... yeah, it does. Andrea: It's a lot. And so I always tell my clinicians that I work with, like, you by no means have to have an Instagram page. You by no means have to have a Facebook page. If anything, that creates a little bit more, like, room for your clients to find you. And like, if that's okay with you, then that's fine. But like, really evaluate what you want, how you want to be visible, and what... What do you value in that marketing phase? Like, do you want to be a creator? Okay, go be a creator. But if you don't, if you're feeling pressure from that, you don't have to be. That's not necessarily the only marketing strategy that exists. Olivia: And from what I've seen, using social media as a marketing strategy for getting clients or just like your business, not a great one. I mean, especially for getting clients, but like generally as a business, like that's not really what social media is used for. Like when you think about consuming your own social media, that's, you're not. Andrea: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Olivia: You're not going on Instagram and then like, ooh, how can I find a therapist? That's just like not happening. That's just not happening. Andrea: Yeah. No, no. Yeah, I mean, we use our social media as an educational platform and a way to connect. And I think for the most part, most of our followers are other therapists like therapy adjacent things ⁓ with the exception of like a smoothie place. I don't know. True story. ⁓ Olivia: Yeah. Shut- shut up to them. You're the real ones. Andrea: right? like, I'm not going to Instagram to be like Seattle area therapist, like No, I've also done that because I was curious, like from a marketing standpoint, I was curious and doing some of that like research. It doesn't yield good results guys. No. Olivia: Right, yeah. Yeah, it doesn't do anything. So I think, again, your point and to expand on it, ⁓ through social media, like it's kind of, I almost say like pointless. Like at least at the bare minimum not worth a lot of time and energy. ⁓ Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah, again, if you want to be a content creator, go for it. Like if you want to diversify your income and that's what you want to do, that's fine. Go for it. But ⁓ get clients, that's not, you know, and I don't know if there's necessarily a population that would search through Instagram either. I'm trying to think of if is there a population that would utilize ⁓ social media for that service. But I can't think of one. And if I'm wrong, leave me in the comments, guys. Like, would love to know. Olivia: Yeah, I mean even... I'm trying to think of what would someone search for for a therapist content curator for that to come up? Andrea: All right. Olivia: Free advice? I don't know. just, like. Andrea: Yeah, it's, yeah, I don't know. That's an interesting one. But, you know, if you're looking for clients, like I think it goes back to what we were just talking about, which is, you know, being active, to connect with other therapists, find some inspiration on what other people are doing, do your research. Like I kind of said earlier, ⁓ is not something that you can sit back and just let happen. ⁓ Olivia: What? bizarre. Andrea: Unfortunately, that's not how algorithms work. you there are, and platforms die. Like I'm thinking about ⁓ Psychology which most people know by now, which is a kind of a universal therapy directory and psychiatry directory. And you can kind of search for therapists really easily there. And I think that Psychology Today is great Olivia: Yeah. Andrea: great option for finding a therapist. truly do. it's dying. I'm just gonna be honest. It's dying. Olivia: Yeah. And to add on to that, I kind of hope it does. Like it's not a great system. It was. Yes. Yeah, it was. It was effective in terms of marketing yourself. their internal algorithm or system that they use for how those lists of therapists get generated when you search or use any type of filter. ⁓ Andrea: Yeah. It was. Yeah, yeah. Olivia: is wacky, I don't know. So it's definitely, at least I'm hoping it's on its way out, but we'll have to see kind of what takes its place. ⁓ Andrea: Yeah. Yeah, because as of right now, there really isn't anything that's taking its place. There was attempt, which was Therapy Den, but haven't seen much of Therapy Den come up. There are tons of directories that therapists do sign up for. There is neurodiverse universe directory out there, but they have very limited spots available for therapists, so it's very limited. ⁓ And there's art therapist directories through ⁓ Olivia: isn't. Hmm, that's interesting. Andrea: the art therapy certification thing, but clients don't necessarily utilize those. They're going and Googling or going through their insurance. Olivia: Yeah, yeah, know, absolutely. It's an interesting time too because there are places that spend a lot on marketing. Like spend a lot on marketing. Andrea: and Olivia: but they're like known in the field for just being like awful. Andrea: Yeah, like. Olivia: You know, like, my gosh. Andrea: There's a particular group that is now spreading into multiple states. ⁓ Olivia: No, I'm thinking about the like, better help and like... Is it headway? Headway? Andrea: Mm-hmm, yeah. Headway, there's Headway, Better Help, Rula. There's another one too, where it's like, if you just Google therapists, it's all advertisement for those. Olivia: Yeah, but I've even gotten ads for them on my social media, which again, I think it's just like so funny because you're just ripping on how marketing on social media I don't think really works. ⁓ Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah, for those platforms, feel like it makes sense, because it's like for them to market that way. Because if you're just scrolling, it's like, hey, you've been scrolling, go to therapy instead. But it's like a general thing. don't think, but individual therapists, also individual therapists have to make a shit ton of money in order to make that advertisement happen. Because Instagram ads, Facebook ads, Google ads are expensive. Olivia: Yeah, I guess. Yeah. Yeah, yeah they are. Yeah they are. Which is why it's such a wild time in the field because there's already, are these bigger companies that ⁓ an exorbitant budget for marketing. And because they are so actively marketing, they are getting a lot of clients. But ⁓ a lot of problems in that because, ⁓ Andrea: Ha Yeah. Olivia: At least the problems that I've seen with some of these places that we've named is like, therapist never stays. The therapist is like super underpaid. The clients don't stay. Like there's not a good filtering or like assessment system. There's all these technical issues. There's not backend support. There's like, there's so many structural issues on the facing side and the like therapist, the, the like clinician side that. ⁓ Andrea: right? Olivia: It's really crappy, but the problem is is like the company is still making enough money to keep doing that, you know what I mean? And then there's these like smaller places or these individual solo providers out there that are really great. Some of them are weird, but there's a lot of great ones out there, but they don't have the money to spend on that or like don't even, even if they had the money, they wouldn't want to do that. Andrea: Yeah. You Yeah, yeah, and it just like, you know, I think this is a whole, maybe a whole separate topic. I don't know, but it's sad because also the clients don't know that. You know, like the general population doesn't know the reason why clinicians use or don't use certain platforms, certain clinics, certain groups. Olivia: Yeah, yeah. Andrea: and don't often realize that are private practice therapists that take insurance. There's private practice therapists that have sliding fee scale and different accessibility options. There's very small group practices. So it breaks my heart a little bit, and I'm hoping that maybe part of this episode can be like, hey, clients, you don't have to use BetterHelp. You don't have to use giant group practices that have billboards all around the country. You don't need to use those. Those aren't your only options. Like you can search through your insurance provider for smaller practices. You can Google, you know, go to the second or third page of Google, which nobody ever says, right? But I think in our field, like with searching for a therapist, maybe that's more useful. Olivia: Yeah. Yeah. And then like, as, as the therapist, you know, on your website, make sure that the things that you're interested in, like we've talked about, are on your website, like many times so that if a client's searching for like, fix my trauma therapist, like you're, you know, near me, like it's going to probably pop up or at least be like in the general vicinity, right? Um, yeah, yeah, I agree. Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Olivia: It's a weird time too because some of those bigger places, they spend a lot of marketing but they also like, they're the place or two, the group that will not be named, they've an exclusive contract with an insurance company for referrals. Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: which I'm like, you know, not up on the legal jargon, but that got to be again, some law somewhere, right? That like some company can have some exclusive contract with a local insurance and just like drain those referrals. And my issue with that, ⁓ was a lot of reasons, but the primary reason is that Andrea: Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. Olivia: I think it can really limit clients' choice. isn't that kind of what it's all about? Is for people to have the right to choose and have as much diversity in what they can choose as possible? You know? Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. When, and I'm going to put this out there as like a PSA in addition to this marketing thing. Hey clients, also, for the most part, a lot of times have this thing called out of network benefits. and if your clinician doesn't take your insurance, sometimes your insurance can take them as an out of network provider. And sometimes that benefit is just as good as your in network benefit. So check that one out. Olivia: That's true. My out of network benefits are not great, but generally, yes. Andrea: You Right, right. And sometimes even if they're not, like there's so many different types of out of network benefits too, right? Like you might have to pay the full cost for a little bit. Like a lot of times out of network is like the co-insurance thing, which we can always talk about insurance in another episode, but like, right? But if you pay your therapist, goes towards your deductible y'all. And then you can like get better. Like you don't have to pay for the rest of the year. Olivia: ⁓ yeah. ⁓ yeah. I don't want to. Move on. Andrea: But there are more ways than just using your insurance, which like, you know, we do take insurance. We really like being able to offer that for our clients. But also I to put that out there for everyone. Like just because you're a clinician that you like doesn't take their insurance, doesn't your insurance. Don't hesitate to just ask. They might be able to provide you an out of network. They might be able to provide you a super bill, all those types of things. And ⁓ it ⁓ happen. Olivia: Hmm. Andrea: You just have to be willing to put in the Olivia: Yeah. Marketing is such a, such a funny thing. Why does everything in our field have to become so involved sometimes? we've literally spent like the last 40 minutes talking about marketing and it's like one sliver of running a business, being a therapist, having a practice, right? ⁓ don't know. ⁓ like ⁓ so many shades in it. ⁓ Andrea: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And we haven't even, you know, and to be honest too, we haven't even touched kind of the basics of marketing, right? Which is have a good headshot, have a good bio, have a decent website. Olivia: Yeah. Yeah, and I think probably the only reason we haven't talked about that directly is because we talked about that in the last episode. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and the finding your therapist one. Yeah. Yeah. Olivia: Yeah, I... in terms of like professional moments where I've had really good laughs, I will say by far it is looking at other people's headshots and like how bad they are. We did it today! Yes, we did! And I was like, am I looking ⁓ ⁓ Andrea: Mm-hmm. We even did it today, right? We were going back and forth. Yeah, yeah. And honestly, that's why I do what I do in my photography business, right, which we've talked about so much is like, I've seen people people's website completely transform because they they got photos done, right? Like it and it doesn't it just is a simple headshot even. Yeah. Olivia: Right, I mean, I think too, I would love to sit here and say, and I know you would love to sit here and say that humans don't go off of first impressions. That we like give people the benefit of the doubt and we don't judge a book by its cover. And like, yes, those things can be true. But like when you... Andrea: Mm-hmm. Olivia: when the client's getting all these marketing things and a huge list of therapists or whatever, there's so many options, which again is really great, but you as the clinician are trying to market yourself, they're gonna look at pictures and be like, no, no, no, no, no, no. They're not even gonna read bios. They're gonna look at pictures. So I don't wanna see a cropped photo of you from your, that was clearly your wedding. Andrea: Right. Yeah. Olivia: That doesn't count as a headshot. We can all tell. Andrea: It's the best photo of myself out there. Invest in yourself. Invest in yourself. Olivia: ⁓ my god... to be honest with you, like, my headshot, my niece took ⁓ of where I am physically in right now. And I'm not trying to say it's the best picture ever, but it's better than a lot of pictures ⁓ it's somebody else taking it of you, right? And ⁓ it's like a simple background. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right, right, don't do a selfie. Olivia: And like, it's not doctored. There's no weird editing, there's no AI, whatever. Like, it's just a simple picture. Andrea: Mm-hmm. ⁓ Yeah. Do not use AI headshots. Olivia: ⁓ my gosh. Andrea: I feel like this is now three episodes in a row that I am mentioning this. Olivia: It probably feels like such a throwback because we did an episode about AI. But yeah. Andrea: Yeah, yeah, ⁓ completely. Yeah, it's just, there are so many things to invest in for yourself and whether or not that means like actual money or no money, right? But what I mean by invest in yourself is like literally put in the time and the care, right? Find a nice day, go stand next to a nice wall. And I'm not talking graffiti, like brick, wood siding. Olivia: Yeah. Andrea: or just a nice flat tree. But like... Olivia: That should be my new nickname. Sorry, go on. Andrea: But in yourself, right? Like really be, yes, investment the intentionality and be like, step out of the therapist head, step out of your own head and step into a client head. Olivia: be a little bit more intentional. Hmm, that could have been delivered better, but I get what you mean. Andrea: Step into a client's perspective. Olivia: shoes even, if you need to go with like a clothing item or part of the body, just not head. I don't know, that just feels weird. Andrea: It just went, it was fine and then it was fine and then it was not fine. Olivia: Yeah, just a bunch of words smashed together. It's okay. It's fine. Which is why like, if you're having trouble marketing yourself, or you're struggling with like how to market yourself or feeling uncomfortable, that's why I think it's helpful to go look at what other people are doing. So then you feel more genuine or feel more in touch with what you care about your values. But then again, Andrea: Ugh, yeah. Olivia: You also get a good laugh at how some people are doing it and you're like, okay, well I'm not that, so I feel a little bit better. Oh my goodness. Well, as always you guys, if you have things that you're curious about or questions, please let us know. We kind of like come up with these topics somewhat on the fly-ish, kind of, a little bit. So if there's things that you're interested on hearing our takes on or Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. 100%. 100%. Yeah. Yeah. Olivia: just wanting to know more about, always let us know. We'd love to hear from you guys. And other than that, let's like sign off for the night. And you guys have a good one out there. Andrea: Yeah. ⁓ yeah. We love you guys. Do all the things. Smash all the buttons like YouTubers like to say. Olivia: Yeah, and take care of yourself. Andrea: Thank you. Bye. Olivia: Bye!