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One of the Only Big Law Firms I'd Fully Trust (w/ Gibson Dunn's Connie Lee) · Non-Billable Hours

• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome everyone to the Nonvillable Hours podcast presented by Mosaic Search Partners, Diversity Driven Legal Recruitment.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: I am Bryson Malcolm, one of your three co-hosts for this podcast.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: And today, you're just going to get me and Connie Lee, who is an antitrust associate at Gibson Dunn, one of the largest law firms in the country.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: She has been at the DC office for about four years now, and she'll go into a bit of her background as we get into things.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: I just wanted to give a little bit of a foreword to talk about what we're trying to avoid with these types of conversations and what you should and should not expect from us going forward.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: Based on my review of many other legal industry podcasts, I've noticed that a lot of these conversations with active attorneys at big law firms tend to be more fluff pieces and just another extension of firm marketing.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: We really do not want to do that, and we want to give you an honest account of what every firm is really like.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: However, there are situations where firms are not all bad.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: And there are actually some situations where firms do a good job across the board of making sure their associates are looked after and supported.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Gibson Dunn, in my experience in this industry, both practicing as an attorney and as a legal recruiter after the fact, has been one of the few exceptions to the rule in terms of big law issues that can pop up.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: So you're probably not going to hear a lot of these conversations with currently practicing associates or partners at law firms just because uh not many people can speak freely uh about their experience at the firm while they're still there for very good reasons, obviously.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and also just uh a lot of people aren't willing to come on a public podcast and talk about anything that's not purely positive.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: Law firms have trouble approving those types of conversations, and everyone is bound up pretty tight.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: This is an exception to that rule.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: And Connie Lee and I have been friends for about seven years now, possibly going on more, I think.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: So whenever I have conversations with her, and whenever I have had conversations with many other people at Gibson Dunn for that matter, it's generally been pretty positive.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: Very few negative experiences, and most of them that are negative are things that are just kind of common in every major workplace in the United States.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: So that being said, uh, we can just lead into this conversation.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully, it provides you guys some insight as to what firm life is like at Gibson Dunn, and also just kind of an answer to the question is every firm bad?
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: Is every firm going to be a negative experience for me?
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: Because obviously there is about a hundred major law firms, and you can have an experience at the vast majority of them that kind of feels uh redundantly awful or just not an ideal situation for folks.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: And what I tried to provide to candidates is the insight that not every firm is the same.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: There are firms that do things better than others.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: No firm is perfect, but there are places you can find yourself where you'll actually enjoy your career uh while you choose to be in private practice.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: As skeptical as that may sound, I assure you that is the truth.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: I have talked to many, many associates, and that's just the case at a couple firms.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we'll go into that a little bit more in the conversation.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: But without further ado, I will lead us straight into this chat with Connie Lee, and I hope you guys enjoy it.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_02: Well, who I am, my name is Connie.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: I am from Houston, Texas.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_02: My parents are from Taiwan.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_02: So they immigrated to Texas in the 70s, and then I grew up there.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_02: I I would say I grew up in a pretty diverse area.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, my high school was pretty diverse all around.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: Not a ton of Asian people, but otherwise, definitely I think a good place to grow up in that respect.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_02: It was a small town though.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_02: So when I got to college and law school, I was still really surprised by just all the different kinds of personalities and types of people I met, even though my town was racially diverse.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: So there's still a lot to learn from different types of people, obviously.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: Once I got to college, I went to Dartmouth for college and then Columbia for law school.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_02: I initially got interested in law, I think because if you're a child and you're really annoying, people tell you you should be a lawyer.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: Did debate in high school and I did a lot of kind of law adjacent things and just started to like it more and more.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_02: I actually interned at a law firm when I was in high school.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_02: I pretty much just shadowed lawyers and I got to help out on a criminal defense case.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_02: And all of that was really formative.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_02: So I was lucky that I got to do that.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: I I went into law school with more of a public interest mindset.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_02: That was kind of what motivated me to do law.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: Familiar narrative.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_02: Ended up in big law for multiple reasons.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_02: One is because law school was very expensive and big law is the best way to pay that off.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: But secondly, I I did actually want to develop more like professional skills that come with being in a big law environment.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_02: I I've done work in nonprofit and government sectors.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: And while that work is super rewarding and you learn a lot from doing it, I think there's much more of a sense of like people are happy that you're there doing it.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_02: And there it's not as much demanding on all these like soft skills of like people really wanting you to make sure that all your work is perfect, that all your emails are super professional.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_02: Those were skills I did want to develop as well.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that they are skills that will benefit me even if I make that career switch later on, which is still definitely on the horizon for me, I think.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_02: But for now, I mean, I've been a lot happier in big law than I really expected to ever be in this setting.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_02: So that's why I'm happy to be here talking about it.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like I've said many times, this is very much the exception to the rule from what I've seen.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously, I talk to a lot of people every year.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and a lot of them are not having a good time.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, it's a select sample of people who are looking to leave usually.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a little bit self-selecting, but even still, I've had friends in the industry.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: I've worked at firms, I've seen what various firms are like, and it's definitely a sliding scale from awful to pretty good.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: And the pretty good firms, maybe I can count, I can count on one hand for sure.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't know if it's three, four, but I've always uh considered Gibson Dunn in there.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: But I guess when we were in law school, I think our general grasp of what each firm was like was fairly weak.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I did everything I could to learn more about what they were like before I made a decision and where to put my focus when I wanted a summer job.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: But how did you first come across Gibson Dunn as a firm and what kind of drew you to them?
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: Was it an immediate connection or was it something that you were able to suss out over time once you were speaking to other firms as a student?
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: How did that come about?
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I totally agree with all the framing that you just said.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_02: What's tough about choosing a big law firm is that when you're a law student, they all kind of sound the same.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I think even now I know a lot more about reputations of different firms from where my friends are practicing, but for places that I haven't directly interacted with, I still don't necessarily know their reputation and what it's like to be there.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that's why it's super valuable to actually be able to talk to people.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's the number one thing that kind of helps you decide where you fit in is just meeting attorneys from that firm and seeing how you vibe with them.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_02: I joined Gibson Dunn my QL summer.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_02: So during our kind of on-campus recruiting process, I paid a relatively narrow list of firms to go for.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_02: And that was because I did my one L summer at a firm in Houston.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I really loved the firm I was at.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_02: It was Haynes and Boon.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_02: It started in Texas.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: So they have a big Texas focus, although they have offices all over.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_02: I only liked being there.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's worth mentioning that's another firm that I felt like being a diverse summer associate was something that the firm helped make my experience positive in that regard.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_02: I thought I felt like my summer class was diverse and that the firm really cared about it.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_02: But ultimately, I just wanted to do some more interviews and kind of branch out geographically.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_02: So I wanted to do some interviews for DC and New York firms.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I picked a relatively short list because I knew I'd be happy going back to Haynes and Boone.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_02: So I picked a few firms based on where I had good interactions with people.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: So if I had friends who were three else who summered at a firm and really liked it, then that was more likely to end up on my list.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_02: Or if I had met attorneys there who were really cool, who I just kind of met through law school networking.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_02: So it was very surface-level way of filtering it out, frankly.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_02: But I feel like you just don't have the information you need to make a complete decision.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_02: You kind of have to go off of these first impressions.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: There were definitely firms where I just didn't love people I met initially, and they're probably not representative of everyone at that firm, but you just have to make that decision.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I just went with I would say though, I think that's like a common refrain and idea.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: But if you actually think about it, and you know, because you've done interviews for Gibson Dunn since you've been working there, but firms generally pick their most charismatic, affable attorneys and partners to send to these things.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: So you're usually getting like cream of the crop, honestly.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: So though it's only a couple attorneys compared to hundreds or thousands, it can be pretty representative of who the firm itself thinks is the best to pitch the firm.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: And if that's the best they got, then I think a gut instinct and a reaction to a couple people is actually pretty smart.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's warranted.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think I agree with that.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_02: I think there are there's a reason why those people are in front of you and you have to trust their gods.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_02: So Gibson, I picked at the end of the day because I it was a great firm for the things I was interested in, which were really kind of government-facing litigation.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_02: I do a lot of antitrust litigation now that's against or sometimes in cooperation with government agencies.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_02: And that was something that I wanted a firm that was strongly not.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_02: But I also wanted a firm with a more kind of global presence, not a firm that was just DC specific.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_02: And then really after that, I just picked Gibson because I really liked the people I interviewed with and I just had good vibes from them throughout.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_02: Since joining Gibson, I would say the number one thing that I've appreciated about it is the fact that it has a free market system and it uses the free market system in a way that I think is really genuine.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_02: Like you can they they say that you could pick your cases, but you really can.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_02: Like you, there is no crusher to really say yes to doing any case that Gibson done.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_02: And the way it's worked for me pragmatically is like I, when I joined the firm, I just talked to some of the partners that I knew already, told them the kinds of cases I was interested in doing.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_02: And then people started keeping me in mind for opportunities to do those cases.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_02: And then organically, I ended up just kind of getting a caseload that fit my interests.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_02: So it wasn't like I had to do a lot of schnoozing with partners to get there.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_02: You you do have to be a little proactive for sure.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like you do have to reach out to some people to get started.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_02: But for me, that was a small trade-off for getting to actually choose my own path in terms of being on cases that I was interested in and that I like a part of it is also being on cases that I don't morally disagree with.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think yeah, and I and being on cases with people that I want to work with.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_02: I just feel like and going to your more global point about how people have really varied experiences in big law.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's easy to see why a lot of people have negative experiences in big law because it's a demanding environment.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_02: It's a lot more work than a nine to five.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_02: You deal with different personalities, you deal with clients and partners who can often make things really stressful.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_02: So there are there are things that are inherently not easy about the job.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_02: So for me, when you have those kind of inherent things to big law, but you're able to actually know what you're getting out of each matter, know that I'm developing this skill that I want to develop further, or this industry or this part of law really interests me, or just I really like this team that I'm working with.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: That just gives me a reason at least to push through on the stuff that can be more challenging with big law.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_02: So I only credit the free market system to a lot of the reason I've been able to stay in big law and not feel burnt out.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_02: I work with people that I like, I work on cases that I like.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: I I still complain about my work as I just like to do in general.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: But like my complaints are more just oh, like it's annoying that this thing happened today or that.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_02: They're not like, oh my god, I'm so miserable that my life is just consumed by hate.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: So that's the big difference for me.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think I want to dig in on the free market thing a little bit more because that's usually something that stands out to candidates when they're looking at the firm, and it's also something that tends to like scare the shit out of some people.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um often because it's very much there's two sides to it.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: So, like Kirkland, from what I understand, has a fairly free market system as well, but it's almost a night and day cultural experience, from what I've heard.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think it's very easy to have that system fail, though I do think at Gibson Dunn it's been pretty successful for a really long time.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but it does scare people.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: So is there something about that?
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think the guardrails are that kind of keep things from getting too competitive or too schmozy?
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: Is it is it just purely like a cultural thing and the people they're picking to bring into the firm or because it could be as simple as that.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: And and obviously on the back end, there's more complicated things like partner compensation would is drastically different at Kirkland and it incentive just more individualism than it does at Gibson Dunn.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: But I guess yeah, how would you explain how it stays healthy while being independent-minded in a way?
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's a great question.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: I I will say I'm not familiar at all with how it works at Kirkland, so I can't necessarily compare that directly.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: But I think I I do know that I think a lot of concern that that people have about a free market system is just like, will I have to be really competitive against other associates to get work?
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_02: Will I have to suck up to partners in order to get on anything?
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_02: What if no one picks me to be on case?
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I I think for whatever reason, that just hasn't really those concerns have not been part of my experience really with Gibson's free market system.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like there, like I said, there is some proactiveness involved.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like you have to tell people what you're interested in, or else they won't know what kind of case to want to be on.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: But aside from that, it's really not a culture where you have to suck up to certain people to get work, or you really have to do a lot to outcompete.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_02: The way I feel like it tends to play out at Gibson is I think first of all, the partners are pretty collaborative with each other.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not really like any partner is trying to hoard associates or trying to create a dynamic of division.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: So if you flow things to really any partner in the practice group that you're interested in, they'll be able to work with other partners to staff you want cases that are appropriate for you.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_02: I also just think, yeah, like culturally, it's the expectation is that when you come in, you will do a little like introducing of yourself and your interests, and then everyone will work from there.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not a culture that kind of presumes that you need to be special to be selected.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's it just presumes that's how it works for everyone.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and yeah, I think it's just it just works out very organically.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe that's just because this is how it's been for a long time at Gibson.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of our partners are homegrown and have been through this experience themselves.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: Or if not, they definitely come in knowing that this is something that's really central to the firm's culture and that idiots are not going to want to work with a partner who creates a toxic dynamic with the market system.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's fair.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: So obviously, I'm I'm personally interested in this.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: With the free market stuff, have you worked with any laterals since the time you joined?
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what was this four years ago, five?
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: If you're counting something.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_02: Fourth year, yeah.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, yeah.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: So, how has it been for people who are just starting at the firm who haven't had a leg up in being there one or two summers and having the time to really build those relationships?
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: Have you found that people have a hard time at all?
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_02: Or yeah, yeah.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's a good question.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_02: I think I mean, I I think there's probably theoretically some kind of and this is speaking on behalf of myself and not the firm in any way.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_02: But I I would have to think that there is maybe some advantage to having been at the firm for longer and having gotten to know more people, but at the same time, like there is turnover at all levels of the firm.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not like the partners I really got to know as a summer associate are even really the same partners who I work with now or who are even at the firm.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_02: So that kind of dilingues that sort of imbalance.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_02: I think from what I've seen, laterals integrate really easily.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's just because if you're coming in as a lateral, you're bringing something to the table, you're bringing in some kind of expertise that's going to be really appealing to a partner who's looking to staff up.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes laterals come in with other people from that firm who already know them.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I think I would say, like, yeah, I think there's probably a similar kind of proactive start that you need to have at the firm so that people know what's appropriate to staff you on and what you want to be on.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_02: But once you start making those connections, I think it all happens really easily organically.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's I think it's a good firm to integrate into laterally, just kind of from the feedback that I've seen from folks who have done that.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's it, I think the cultural thing does a lot of work as well.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: In terms of the people that the firm picks to bring in as well.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I think everyone I know, there have been a fair amount of laterals who I went to, who were my class here at Columbia, who lateraled into Gibson after the fact.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: And they all kind of have somewhat of a similar base personality where they're all generally friendly, ambitious people who I don't think would have a hard time integrating, like just based on their own skill set anyway.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's a big part of it as well, from an outside perspective.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, totally.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: What was your summer like?
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: Because I always have to ask people.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: My summer, my pick last summer was very particular.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: I was at Scadden in New York, and it's uh a very specific vibe that is not always positive.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think that's fairly well known in the industry, but to the extent it's not now you know.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh what was Gibson like?
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: Was there was it very you just go in and do your work and get things done?
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: Were there a lot of social elements involved?
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: Because you're a fun person.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we're friends, you're fun, we we can go out, so I don't think you'd go to a place that was completely dull in that sense, but uh obviously it's a balance because you can go too far with it, which is what I think happens at places like Scadden sometimes, and things go off the rails.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, what what was your experience as a summer?
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: What did you or actually now that I think about this, you might have had more of a unique experience than I remember.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I was gonna had the COVID, at the COVID summer at the COVID summer.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_02: So crap.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: Explain that honestly, like that's uniquely.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, look, it was COVID summer was a huge bummer because I had obviously done a one all summer, so I knew how fun summer could be, and then it was really disappointing for it to all take place from my bedroom in New York rather than anywhere near the office.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: I think Gibbs had handled COVID summer pretty well given the circumstances.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_02: So what they did is they cut the length of the summer program a little bit.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_02: So we did not the full time.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_02: It usually, I think we did six weeks instead of 10 or something.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_02: We do got we got paid for the full summer, which not every firm did.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_02: I was I always judged a little bit the firms that didn't do that, like how much money is it really for them at the end of the day.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: Sullivan and Cromwell, I believe, did that.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I think they cut their entire program actually, if I remember correctly.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_02: Which would be notably Solomon and Cromwell, which was another firm I considered really highly in the interviewing process.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_02: And then when that happened, I was like, hmm, my decisions paid off already.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, so they paid us the whole time and they tried in their best to do virtual social events that still allowed us to meet people.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_02: The success of those events was definitely, in my opinion, a little varied.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_02: As I think any sexual event is, right?
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: There were I do think we did like reasonable, like I didn't hear of some firms doing some really goopy stuff.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like ours were like not, you know, they they were fine.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_02: It was back when people thought Zoom happy hours might be fun, and that was just totally incorrect.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: Honestly, the bar was so low at the time I I would have taken it off.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_02: I I did.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: I I joined one Zoom happy hour and I had a drink with me in my bedroom, and then no one else drank on the whole TV.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_02: But I I was like, I can't look like I'm just caving into peer pressure.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: So I like doubled down and I just like tongue in my little drink, and no one else is drinking.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: It's like 5 p.m.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just on a Zoom call.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um So that was out of that.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_02: I think the summer was somewhat successful.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: Like I did get to know a couple of people, I got to know enough.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: people that when I came back to the firm, I still had like a few people to kind of reach out to.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: So I think like my experience with the free market system was actually a lot more challenging than a lot of first year associates have because I didn't really get to know people during my summer.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_02: But it still all worked out and I was still able to meet people pretty quickly and get good work and and get so that's why I think like it's not that big of a barrier to entry that you have to reach out to people a little bit just because people are so receptive to it once you start doing it.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, that was that made things a little more challenging.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_02: Now having been at the firm for subsequent summers that were actually in person, I think that's true.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_02: My on the associate side yeah yeah my kind of view of it in my experience is that the I think we generally aim to offer like a couple social events every week or so.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_02: We have a regular cadence of opportunities for summers to get to know each other and to get to know people at the fur.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_02: But there's not I in my opinion I don't know how necessarily everyone who is in it feels but to me I don't think there's really ever a lot of pressure at Gibson Dead to attend any social event that extends the happy hours and events that arise when you're a full associate.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: I just feel like they're always like come if you would like to but no one's like really going to care if you're not there.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_02: So I try to encourage summer associates to go to as many as they feel comfortable going to I don't think anyone needs to go if they don't feel like it but I think going is how you meet people and that's always good at any law firm to when you're a summer associate to try to get to know some folks.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I think our events are again relatively low pressure.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_02: So I and we do kind of the same sorts of events that I feel like every big law firm does like we do a baseball game, a Broadway show we do happy hours, we do dinners so there's enough for everyone like even if you don't drink there's still plenty of events.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: I guess turning to a bit of you know deep diving on diversity stuff since that is kind of my niche let's do it.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: So Gibson Dunn from what I've heard from many people including you I'm paraphrasing but it is pretty good for uh diverse associates once you're in the support network is pretty good.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's clear that they put a lot of funding into making sure people feel included there is diverse leadership there's a dedicated diversity director who is also a practicing partner which is quite rare and she's highly qualified also Columbia grad go us um so it seems like that's pretty well accounted for but I will say that the numbers are a little bit lower than the industry averages nothing crazy for the industry.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean in general if you're looking at it compared to the population it's a little wild but for for big law it's around average it's about 1% below for black associates and the Latinx data follows black attorneys more closely.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: Partnership level very similar to the industry averages a little bit below for AAPI partners a little bit below for basically every other minority group.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: So that being said it seems to be the quantitative data isn't always everything.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: And even if you are a little bit below on stats it doesn't mean you're a bad spot to be and I have taken away that the reason for that number being a little low may be the level of scrutiny that they give to people coming in both at the lateral level and when you're a law student they are pretty grade sensitive.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: I know there used to be more of a hard grade cutoff now that's been abandoned from what I understand but it is tough for a lot of minority applicants to get through the interview process and get an offer for the summer or that's at least what it seems like with the data.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: In your opinion what do you think should be addressed in that kind of thing and you can also focus on the benefits once you're in the door of how you felt supported as an Asian American attorney and you know at Gibson Dunn yeah yeah I think that's there's a lot to unpack there but I think it's a really important question.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_02: I do have to cave on that I'm speaking on behalf of my own experiences.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_02: I I have no idea exactly like all the things going on at Gibson Dunn with regard to diversity and recruiting and though what those departments are doing.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_02: But what I can say from my own experience is a few things.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_02: I I think for me first of all I have had a positive experience in terms of Gibson Dunn's diversity efforts while I've been at the firm and to me I I tend to think that kind of there's a lot of improvement that can be made across big law in diversity.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_02: What I think matters a lot to me is seeing what a firm is trying to do and how much they're listening to their diverse attorneys and doing that.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_02: I've been to like various kind of big law events that some were like kind of trying to support diversity but were really misguided probably didn't consult people who might be affected by it.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_02: I've been to you know I've just been to things where like the tone was really bad.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that that definitely affected my choice of law firm.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I think Gibson Dodd for me in my experience has I I think there's room for improvement but I always see people trying to like be mindful of those issues in in a lot of ways.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_02: Just as one example I think I I had a case team where we went to trial pretty recently and one of the things that we talked about and thought about on our trial team was how we were going to like present diverse witnesses and expert witnesses as part of our case presentation.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_02: And this is not to score any kind of like points or anything like that.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_02: It was about trying to present like a well-rounded case that showed how the outcome of the case was going to really affect the community, including all different kinds of people who were in in that community.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_02: So I felt like the way we approached that gave me a lot of comfort that we were looking at it the right way and that we were thinking about the issues but also like thinking about them in a way that was very genuine and not just kind of trying to see it from this performative way.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_02: Now I think the the core the thing about grades and recruiting is interesting because I again can't speak to like our official policies on this kind of thing, but I do think broadly right like grades are something that matters for big law recruiting in general.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_02: I think the industry could do well to find better ways to capture candidates holistically because I think they care to look at grades because it shows you know how it it shows something theoretically about work ethic and whatnot.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_02: But I think that's really complicated by the fact that grades are not a holistic indicator of of anyone but I think especially diverse candidates often um and and this is mate projecting from my own experiences but might not always I don't know like in law school like it's so subjective right like you're just we're just answering these hypos and your professor is the one kind of grading them anonymously on how much your answers are resonating.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I think my I always felt like I did better in classes with like female professors or professors who are people of color and that's completely just my experience.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_02: I have no uh data as to whether or not there there is some kind of bias at play.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_02: But either way I felt like the the professors for whom my answers resonated the most were a little more like me at least some of the time or at least enough of the time that I felt like there was some correlation.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I think one important point with the because I know there's blind grading in law school exams generally speaking and your grade is almost solely based on that but there's still certain ways that people phrase sentences even when you're writing a legal argument especially at the student level where you still haven't completely converted to legalese a male writing piece might sound different than a female writing piece or if you're coming from a different cultural background that gets into play as well.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: So even though things are blind quote unquote there are smaller factors that are more cultural that can affect grading in that way.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I just think that's an important point that and then that kind of speaks to your experience and my experience as well with I think I've maybe had one black professor yeah and maybe I've had two black teachers my entire life and I did great in those classes.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: Not that I didn't do well in other classes but I did particularly better.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: So there there's definitely something there which speaks to the bias in grading overall.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah exactly I have very few POC professors throughout like my entire education definitely had a few at Columbia and yeah I just felt like and it's not all race or anything but I for a a kind of example that's not based on race is that I had a professor at Columbia who like basically always did really well on her class.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_02: Like I always just knew I was going to get an A in that class.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_02: And she had uh her background was she had done research with someone that I had also done research with.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I just felt and I I did really feel like when I was writing policy answers in some of her exams that I just knew she was going to get what I was saying because I think she had this similar background that I had.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_02: She was a white professor and it wasn't race-based, but it was like that similar experience that kind of I think helped me do better in that class.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_02: So that's all to say that I think grades are just not a perfect indicator and I think they're also skewed a little more toward I think students who look more like what the professors largely look like or have similar experiences they might just end up doing a little better for reasons that are not intentional at all.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that I think that's a gap that I think schools should, firms at et cetera should think about ways to address but I think from the firm perspective I think the best path forward is just to try to look at candidates more holistically I think if what you're really getting at by grades is work ethic and judgment and all the inability to work under pressure like there are other things that show that.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I would encourage candidates who feel like their grades don't represent them well enough to find ways to express like there are a lot of time I I do recruiting for Gibson done sometimes in terms of interviewing Columbia students in the first instance.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_02: And there have been a lot of things that I'm impressed by that don't have to do with grades.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_02: There are there are time there was I I had one student who I think he did like a big law internship his first summer but he also took on a second internship at a nonprofit and I was really impressed by that.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_02: I just thought it showed a lot of drime it showed a lot of genuine interest in what he was doing.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_02: And that was something that didn't have anything to do with grades but just showed me some of the things that we might otherwise presume from grades.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah I think there's things that firms in general probably should look for more holistically than they might currently but I think there's also just for any candidates who are thinking about the question, it's worth thinking creatively about how you can express that assessment too.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think there have been a lot of instances where having a diverse interviewer team helps as well because there can be certain biases that come into play if you're not familiar with a candidate's background.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's something that you have mentioned before Gibson does a pretty good job with obviously I've had people interview with Gibson Dunn.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: And the teams have been fairly diverse when they can be they're always diverse in terms of gender in terms of race it's it kind of depends on the practice area because certain practice areas just aren't as diverse as others.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: But generally speaking it seems like that's integrated pretty well and it catches some biases that might be there.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: Have you found that the partners and the ultimate decision makers with that kind of thing tend to listen to your feedback and are receptive of how you feel a candidate did, even if it goes against what they initially thought yeah totally.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: I I think that's been I mean yeah that's something that I've appreciated about the kind of Columbia interviewing team that I work with.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like yeah I I have um definitely looked out for it when I interview I have I know there are people I work with who also look out for that kind of thing.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I think um when everyone puts their heads together we try to uh account for any sorts of biases and and we do actually look at kind of the final recruits that we end up with and we try to ask ourselves like if that's a list that feels representative of who we interviewed or if there's anyone that we feel like we need to look at again or or maybe or if there's someone who maybe their grades were lower but we want to really pitch for their inclusion.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like we do try to go back and think about those things as well.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: But I agree that I think having diverse interviewers is is something that helps because I've certainly looked out for it a lot in the candidates that I interview and it's just something that that's not to say that you have to be for example a person of color to to have to think that right but it's it's just something that I think could also make an advocate feel more comfortable sometimes or it's just makes a certain thing on their resume more intelligible.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: Last question I would say I mentioned some of those stats with diversity I also want to mention and close on the fact that some of these numbers have been improving by a pretty solid margin over the past year at least and it seems like the number of API partners is on the rise across all of Big Law especially with the recent changes in 1L classes I'm sure that's something we'll see reflected which is honestly great.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: Do you feel like if you can make it through because obviously big law is not a long term game for everyone if you're sane generally speaking but do you feel like if you wanted to pursue like a council or partner position that you would have a solid shot and be equally considered and have has a firm had conversations with you about that at this point?
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_02: You know you're going into your fifth year fourth yeah fourth year fourth year.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: Fourth year so yeah solid mid-level is that something that you've thought about or had conversations with the firm about and obviously I'm not saying that you don't have to say whether you are are actually gunning for partner or not but do you think it's something that is attainable in a way that is systematically supported there.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah yeah I think it is attainable well and I think for for me my career goals are still like a little up in the air.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_02: I think I have some interest in leaving the firm and maybe coming back andor considering coming back in the future.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_02: I think over the next couple of years that's something I want to think about more.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_02: But I think in general I mean I think the firm has been transparent about how, for example, I am doing at the firm and what track I should stay on if I want to make it in the long run.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think at my level there's not necessarily a lot of direct talk or pressure one way or the other about staying at the firm.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_02: I think there's an understanding that people do all sorts of things.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_02: I've ventured to people that I might have an interest in going to government and people have been super supportive about that.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_02: I've been very open to partners I work with if that's something that I might see myself doing.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah I think long story short I think the numbers are obviously the numbers are what they are I don't I I think there's a lot of room for improvement across big law but including at Gibson Don I think we personally think that we could do better in terms of just recruiting more diverse attorneys, making sure we retain the diverse talent we have all of that.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_02: I think the firm's aware of that and that is a goal for the leadership but that just that also doesn't mean the numbers are going to always be the way that people might want them to be so that's all stuff that I generally feel comfortable with on my personal path at Gibson Dunn.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_02: I think for for me what's been very important is that I've been able to find my people at Gibson Dunn.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not trying to speak for everyone at the firm in terms of what people think, right?
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure there are people who think differently from me and frankly there are people that I I don't necessarily work with or even see myself working with.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_02: But for the people that I do work with and I do interact with the most closely on a daily basis, I feel like they are really aligned with me in wanting to support me in viewing diversity in a similar way as I do and in wanting to make partnership transparent and realistic for junior attorneys of all backgrounds.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that has made my experience positive.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_02: I think any firm it's important to find your people but I tend to think I've at least had a successful time of doing so at Gibson and that the free market system makes it easier anywhere.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_02: And if you find people who support you who will really vouch for you who will really see you I think you can be successful there.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_02: So I'll I'll close on a positive note.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: All right yeah that sounds good uh thank you for coming on the pod and uh I look forward to talking to you later.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: All right this was delightful