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Parenting At The End of The World · Not Right Now

• 0:00
  I will stop you mid-pee to tell you to go get your fucking socks off the living room table, because I have already asked, and you know they're not supposed to be there, and I'm not doing it anymore.
• 0:13
  [upbeat music] Welcome to Not Right Now, the podcast about parenting through all of this. We'll be talking about/crashing out over topics like... TikTok time limits and the collapse of local news.
• 0:27
  Have you done your homework, and have I remembered to ask you if you've done your homework? Another existential question. It's not an advice show.
• 0:34
  It's a you're not alone, and you're also not crazy for screaming in the shower kinda show. I'm Claire Zulkey from Evil Witches. And I'm Quinn Emmett from Important Not Important.
• 0:45
  You can find details on anything we talk about in the show notes or at our website, notrightnow.show..show.
• 0:52
  And if you like what you hear today, please share it with a parent who needs it, or who might laugh and tell their kids to be quiet, and then drop us a nice little five-star review.
• 1:00
  And reminder, you can send questions or feedback to questions@notrightnow.show. [upbeat music] Hey, it's Quinn. Welcome to another Not Right Now. We never welcome you, and I want you to feel welcome.
• 1:18
  A little housekeeping before we get into today's episode.
• 1:21
  On my other show, The Most Important Question, we are in the middle of our series with our best friends at Run for Something, where we have young progressive candidates running for state and local office on the show.
• 1:32
  This week, I chatted with Jackie McGuire about data centers in Arizona. So you can go check that out. Our new show, It's Called Reality, which is about reality TV, is amazing, and it is out in the world.
• 1:45
  The second episode gets into all the drama of Survivor season 50. I learned a lot, and it, it serves as a case study for narrative control and archetypes in reality TV.
• 1:54
  And of course, here on Not Right Now, last week we had Episcopal priest and mom Megan Murphy Gill on the show to talk about raising kids with and without religion.
• 2:04
  Scroll back in your feed if you missed it, or check it out on our YouTube channel. That's it. We have a guest today. Her name is Caitlin Teare.
• 2:11
  She's a mom, obviously, and she's the author of the brand-new book, an essay collection called Little Apocalypses: Essays on Motherhood, Climate Change, and Hope at the End of the World. Caitlin is awesome.
• 2:26
  She is the senior editor of Cup of Joe, where she has interviewed folks like Roxane Gay, amazing, Barbara Kingsolver, amazing, and Jana Miller, amazing.
• 2:34
  Her essays have appeared in Orion, in Catapult, in Electric Lit, and Prairie Schooner, and she has taught writing at Western Washington University, where she lives in Washington State with her hubby and her two kids.
• 2:46
  She loves gardening and secondhand fashion and all of that fun stuff. We talked about parenting and all the bullshit we put on moms and climate change. We made fun of me. We made fun of Claire.
• 2:56
  It's, it's a, one of those episodes you'll love, hopefully. As usual, send feedbacks, all that stuff, to questions@notrightnow.show.
• 3:05
  Please leave us a review or something and, and tell a friend, 'cause if we need this, and you need it and I need it, all the parents need it. Thanks for listening.
• 3:15
  [upbeat music] It's like- I wish it was relegated to just days when emotions are running high, but it's, it's every day. I'm still in the phase of parenting where, like, emotions are based on food consumption. Mm-hmm.
• 3:25
  Oh, I am too. Uh, that doesn't change, PS. It just becomes- No... also other things. Mm-hmm. But it's still food. Our younger son yesterday did not eat an... I...
• 3:32
  You know, I don't know if you've seen those memes about how the first day of school the parent makes the lunch, and it's, like, this beautiful bento box.
• 3:38
  [laughs] And the last day of school it's, like, whatever you found in the compost bin. And that was my younger son's lunch yesterday. It was a lunch of...
• 3:46
  It was an Uncrustable, which I know is, like, the dumbest food ever, but we had them, and some Pirate's Booty, and one baby carrot- Oh, yeah... and some freeze-dried mango.
• 3:57
  And I think he ate the Uncrustable and the carrot. So he was just... Uh, he gets mad when he's hungry, so, uh- That is- And-... better than the new food pyramid. One carrot. Yeah. Congratulations. Oh, yeah.
• 4:08
  He ate the carrot, and he ate the mango. As always, he's gonna poop. That's the main, the main goal. But- That's it... he was just...
• 4:13
  Steve was like, "He was such an asshole, and he was so mean," and, you know, there was no getting through it.
• 4:18
  So, uh- I have showed my kids the old Snickers commercials, the, the hangry ones, particularly the Betty White one, which is fantastic. I'm like, "It's real. You shouldn't-" Yeah. Yeah. "...
• 4:27
  solve it with a Snickers bar, but it, it's real. It happens to everyone, so if you could just listen to me when I tell you to eat your lunch." We tried so hard to use the, like, "Listen to your body" language.
• 4:37
  [laughs] And they turned around on us. Don't give a shit. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Just last night, my four-year-old was like, "My body wants another juice box." I'm just... [laughs] Mm-hmm. They will- It's 7:00...
• 4:46
  manipulate anything. So your body also wants sleep. Yeah. Yeah. We've also d- come across this thing with, like, independence is great, and we all wanna foster independence in our children, right?
• 4:59
  Nobody wants a helicopter parent or a kid who doesn't know how to get around on their own, but in our case, that manifests in our kids going to buy themselves food, food at the gas station often.
• 5:10
  Did you know that Faygo makes a bubblegum-flavored pop? I know, because my son brought home a one-liter bottle of it.
• 5:18
  And, you know, they're eating huge bags of candy, like cotton candy as a serving and, and, like, going to McDonald's for lunch.
• 5:26
  And, and I have to choose my battles, but also, we are just dismayed about, like, w- the chemical, the choices, but, uh- But I know-...
• 5:35
  the sugar and the- And I think you kinda disagree, but I feel like we've talked about this before. And Caitlin, I know you've talked about, you know, authoritative parenting, authoritarian, like, the whole thing.
• 5:43
  I just, I have a baseline set. First of all, helicopter parenting, so exhausting. I'm not interested. I have s- only so much energy.
• 5:50
  But two, like, I just start with a blanket s- like, a constitution full of nos, and everything above that I don't care. No, we're not buying that shit. You can buy anything else. But we're not buying that. Sorry.
• 6:01
  The, I have found that that is easier. Process of elimination. Uh, I'm just like, we're- Yeah... not that family. Sorry, I don't know what to tell you. It's helpful for them to know where- Yeah... the boundaries are.
• 6:10
  But what do you do, though, when they're, like, on their own? If they're riding their bike around, and they go to 7-Eleven by themselves, are you, you know- Out of sight, out of mind. Yeah. Truly, go- good, good luck.
• 6:20
  But also, like, how are you paying for it? Yeah. Well, that, my kids keep end up getting ca- they have relatives who give them cash- Yeah...
• 6:27
  for n- like, for no reason, so they have cash all the time for this kind of stuff, and- That shit's gonna happen. That is not my problem. Are you affecting others? Are you dealing coke in the movie theater? No.
• 6:38
  If you're just crushing M&M's, I don't care. But you don't- Also, in that case- Remember my rule, though... I feel like- You don't get to be a dick when you come home, because you're crashing on M&M's. That's it.
• 6:47
  I like that. So what were you gonna say? Oh, I was gonna say, I feel like, in that case, the independence is the big win. Like, they're out riding their bike. Yeah. Like, that's the win.
• 6:56
  Everything else is- Yeah, that's what I, that's what I tell myself. It has been nice. Here's been something I've discovered this week, and we will, Caitlin, talk about your book and all, and things about you.
• 7:04
  We always dive in with just the, whatever top of mind. But I, like, I'm sure you've heard or read about these paeans to the free summer, unstructured summers, let children roam.
• 7:16
  I have realized parents who have kids who are younger than a certain age should not listen to that at all, 'cause it is way different when you don't have to supervise it.
• 7:24
  'Cause now that my kid, and it's only for a week, too, that's the other thing, I think, but as long as they can maintain their own freedom, and you don't have to make their freedom for them, and check in and make sure they've eaten, or provide, that should be their freedom, not necessarily your freedom, and that's, I get it now, and it's nice 'cause I'm not in charge of it, and they're bored on their own.
• 7:45
  Yeah. So tell me more about free summer, because I don't even think I'm in that phase of parenting yet, because my kids are seven and four, so- Which it's not applicable to, 'cause they'll, they'll die. Yeah. Yeah.
• 7:57
  In any given situation, my son used to, like, eye contact as he put his fingers into the electrical socket, like, on, on purpose, and now I'm like, "Good luck. I've told you not to 400 times. Enjoy your independence."
• 8:09
  Yeah, Claire's right. E- everyone's like, "We grew up in the '90s. No one knew where we were." It's like, not when you're four. I mean, maybe. My parents didn't give a shit. But not applicable yet.
• 8:18
  But now, it is- Yeah... it is as much as we can do that. Yeah.
• 8:22
  I feel, you, I mean, y- as you talk about in your book, by the way, you are a part, first of all, beautiful cover, and I also want to say, Caitlin- Wow, well done, Claire...
• 8:29
  you have the most, you have the most beautiful hair in the game. I don't know how you do it, but you really have gorgeous hair. Thank you.
• 8:36
  I was in the, I was in the middle of going to get the book, and I was walking down the stairs, and I was like, "What? Where? What am I doing?" And then I was like, "I have a goal, and it's to get Caitlin's book."
• 8:44
  But, you know, the mom guilt of it all will c- let you know that whatever you're doing, you're doing wrong, right? And one of- Mm-hmm...
• 8:50
  one version of that is if your kid is too overscheduled in the summer, that's so sad, because they're not learning how to h- freedom, and, you know, slip and slide in the backyard, and riding your bike around, and device-free, and all, all that kind of stuff.
• 9:06
  And I just have learned my kids need to be busy. They need to be busy. They need to be tired. The tiredness makes them sleep. The tiredness makes them eat.
• 9:14
  They're not intelligent enough to fulfill long stretches of time.
• 9:18
  Like yesterday, my older son, I think they were starting to run out of things to do, so they were starting to create recipes in the kitchen, like Frankenfoods. Oh, no.
• 9:26
  And I knew that, because there was Nutella smeared everywhere, and I was like, "Yeah, I'm glad we're going to frisbee camp next week. That's important." But, like, when your kids get older, you may enc- encounter that.
• 9:35
  But also, I feel like you have, we'll talk more about this, but you have that built into your life, I think, a lot already with your kids, like with your garden, and the beach cleanups and stuff you guys do. Yes.
• 9:45
  But just beware. There'll always be someone telling you you're bad for having your kid signed up to do a thing. I feel like that's been true about every stage of parenting, and every parenting decision.
• 9:57
  There's someone ready to tell you you're doing it wrong.
• 9:59
  And even in the realm of advice that's meant to take the pressure off of parents, a lot of times critiques of intensive parenting just come off as, well, the goals are still the same for you and your kids, but just try to do it with less effort.
• 10:14
  Can you be less high maintenance about it? Yeah. That's a really good point. And I saw someone somewhere, like a good quote, and of course I won't track it down, but someone some- somewhere said, "I'm raising a person.
• 10:25
  I'm not designing them." And that, I need to keep that in mind, because my kids don't necessarily, they're not the product of my efforts. My efforts are unrelated sometimes to what I put out there.
• 10:37
  But you get, you know, if you get them down the wrong track, you know, method-wise, you think it is 'cause of me, that I did do something wrong that, you know, my kid screamed that he hated me the other day ago, and I'm like, "It's because of these choices," not 'cause he's his own person, and he's having a bad moment, and all these things led up to it.
• 10:54
  So I definitely have to remind myself of that sometimes, 'cause I get very control-oriented, and think, "Well, it, it's 'cause I hit him in the head when he was a baby by accident, and I caused the brain damage that made him behave this way."
• 11:04
  100%. I threw Oliver into a fan when he was, like, six months old, a moving fan, and Dana was like, "He's fine. You cried for three days." Yeah. But I still, whenever he fucks up, I'm like, "It was the fan. I knew it."
• 11:15
  I think the whole thing is, you heard, like, the barbell approach, which is, can you fuck your kids up? 1,000%. Can you make great choices for them? 1,000%. Most of it's in between. Mm-hmm.
• 11:26
  They're gonna be who they are, and, like, you can guide them, but, you know, Claire, you know, like, I know your boys are, like, similar, but they, they come out and you're like, "Those are different people.
• 11:35
  I don't understand how I thought I was gonna get- Totally... two copies of this." They're, they're who they are, and your job is, again, here's some guardrails, but I don't know, man. Best wishes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
• 11:44
  One of my favorite parenting books is the Alison Gopnik book, The Gardener and the Carpenter, and she kind of offers an alternative to helicopter parenting, or what sometimes is called hothouse parenting, like in the greenhouse sen- sense of the word, and she-...
• 12:04
  is like, think about making a meadow, not like a carefully designed garden. She's a little more take the chaos gardening approach. Just throw some seeds around, make sure you're watering, and just kinda let it happen.
• 12:15
  Mm-hmm. And I love that. And she also says she thinks parenting books are a terrible invention, which I tend to agree with.
• 12:22
  So I wanna dive into talking about your book a little bit, and I wanna get a little bit more meta also just about where you are in terms of the promotion and thinking about it now that it's been out in the world. Mm.
• 12:31
  But, like you have done so much research for this book, and you talk...
• 12:35
  I mean, when, when I read your writing, you do, you pull in so many references, and I'm just curious how you, what your time management is for doing all this work and all this reading, and finding the good things to, to pull from them and not feeling overwhelmed or feeling compelled to quote things just 'cause I researched them.
• 12:54
  Just tell me a little bit about how you're raising these beautiful kids, planting your garden, working on the newsletter, and then also taking in all this research. Yeah. So the book writing process took about a year.
• 13:10
  But since it's an essay collection, some of those essays I had started writing, you know, when my daughter, who is now seven, was just several months old, and it was like, it was what was mine to write at that time.
• 13:23
  These were the questions that I was wrestling with. And so the research has, you know, kind of happened just as part of my life over these last seven to eight years.
• 13:34
  And even really before that, before becoming a parent, I was teaching college writing and focusing on environmental literature and nature writing.
• 13:44
  And so looking back, the research really pulls from the last 10 years of just what I personally have been interested in and obsessed with.
• 13:54
  But then in terms of the day-to-day, it helps that my work with Cup of Joe and Big Salad is part-time, and so I can kind of clock in, clock out.
• 14:04
  Some weeks I was able to, while my kids were in childcare and at school, have long blocks of time to write, which is nice. Seems crazy. I also- Yeah... have always been like a wake up early person. In college- Mm-hmm...
• 14:19
  I could never pull an all-nighter.
• 14:20
  I would rather set my alarm at 3:00 AM and wake up and s- And so I don't, I don't do that now, but it's not unusual for me to wake up at 4:00 or 5:00 to start work and try to fit some in before my kids wake up, which is always the trick.
• 14:34
  Well, that's the Tony Morrison trick. That's really impressive. I did that for varying working and working out when my kids were younger, and I've- Yeah... now they're... How old are my kids, Claire?
• 14:44
  11, 12, 13, something like that. I, I haven't been able to figure out why the past couple years I can't do it, and I realized 'cause they fuck around in the kitchen till 9:30 at night now. [laughs] And I'm like- Yeah...
• 14:54
  "Oh no, I need my sleep." Before, I gave 'em a bottle and they were out at 6:15, like sun shining through the windows. Oh, yeah. You know, it's the whole thing of your kids are gonna wake up when they're gonna wake up.
• 15:05
  You control what time they go to bed. Mm-hmm. Or what time you go to bed. And I understand the needing night owl time, people like that.
• 15:11
  My buddy does that, but those hours in the morning are amazing, and I miss them, so- Oh, yeah... stick, stick with it as long as you can 'cause eventually they're just making snacks- Yeah. Good luck...
• 15:19
  and slam it, slamming the microwave closed. I believe it.
• 15:22
  When I, when I stopped drinking, I, the book that I read that helped me or led me to quit drinking sort of had you orient your morning time, basically, and ch- had you- Mm. They, they...
• 15:33
  One of the prompts was like, how would you spend your morning, like your first hours or your first hour, whatever it is, like if no one, you know, if you were completely free.
• 15:41
  And I was like, that's gonna be my reading time now because that I'm- Mm... I'm not guaranteed to have it at, at night, and so I, I do that now. And also, I think my body clock has changed since I...
• 15:52
  And I still ar- struggle with that 'cause I, I'm not good at getting up and, like, being productive. I would love to.
• 15:57
  I feel like sometimes I wake up more around 4:00 PM, and I used to feel more guilty about that 'cause that's when the kids would come home, and I felt like I should be like, "Hi, I'm home" Yeah...
• 16:06
  you know, for all the hugs and kisses. And Quinn, I know your kids greet you exactly the same way when they're home. They've been like, "Daddy, I missed you so much. If I'm there- "Let me tell you all about my day"...
• 16:14
  when they get home, they're just like, "God damn it. This is like the last pers-" I was like, "You gu- I used to come home, and now they roll in, they're like, 'Ugh, this... He's just in between me and my iPad.'"
• 16:24
  That's it. That is- Yeah... I gotta get past this guy. Mm-hmm. And I remember when my dad used to be like, "How was your day at school?" And I would say, "Fine."
• 16:31
  And, and, and for some reason, the kids are the same way even though it's me, and I, you know, obviously they should talk to me.
• 16:38
  So I, I'm trying to get over my ideal of, like, how I should use my time management, but that is, like, a writing ideal is to get up and get your words done and, you know, I...
• 16:47
  So I admire you, Caitlin, that you can still make that happen. But tell me how the book is, how you are doing.
• 16:53
  I, w- for my friends who are parents and writers, I always, I say book writing is very much like parenting in that you put in all this work and hard, and love, and, and heartache some- at times, and then it goes out in the world, and it's sort of independent of you.
• 17:08
  You know, you might- Mm-hmm... have some good luck, you know, but also you can spin your wheels promoting the hell out of it or not, and it's sort of like let go and let God.
• 17:18
  And so I'm just curious how you are, where you are right now, and how you've been feeling about it, and what is coming up for you promotion-wise. I, I think it has been something I was really scared of, promoting it.
• 17:30
  I was just like, it's so public, and I don't know, you're talking to so many people.
• 17:36
  And it's actually been really joyful and kind of meaningful to hear from other people who feel similarly or who've felt kind of alone in connecting the dots between climate anxiety and postpartum anxiety, and parent guilt and climate guilt.
• 17:55
  And so I have found it to be a lot more nourishing than I thought it would be.
• 18:01
  And it's also just very interesting to be on the other side of things because I feel like in my role at Cup of Joe and Big Salad, I'm always the one asking the questions and doing the-...
• 18:10
  book tour interviews, and so it's a little strange to find myself like, "Oh, this is what it feels like." But for the most part it's been really, really rewarding. That's great. That's very cool.
• 18:22
  Yeah, the cl- the climate anxiety of it all, it's nice to read something and have something in your hands that talks about collaboration and hope, and not just feeling bad that, "Sorry, kids.
• 18:33
  Sorry we gave birth to you right in time for all this," as we say at Not Right Now. And, yeah, I, like, wonder if your kids maintain that same optimism that you have, or if you have worrywart kinda kids. Hmm.
• 18:49
  I think they're coming into their own as worrywart. They are my kids, after all [laughs]. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. They do have a tendency to ask sort of the big, dark questions.
• 18:59
  But they're also still just seven and four, and so their grasp of the future, even just as a concept, is still kind of limited. Oh, yeah.
• 19:10
  You know, but the, like, the other day I was listening from the other room as my kids were having their own conversation together about climate change. Oh, boy.
• 19:20
  And my seven-year-old was telling my four-year-old, she was like, "Yeah, the Earth is heating up, and when it gets hot enough the dinosaurs are gonna come back." Oh, wouldn't that be fucking great, though? Incredible.
• 19:31
  That's awesome. That's amazing. I love that, though. I think that's actually... Why not? God, what if? God, I would be ha- So I would quit this job in a heartbeat if that was the endgame.
• 19:41
  Yeah, but then they also have, you know, s- the, feel like thinking about, like, the future of the planet sort of tracks with big questions about life and birth and death, and they're also kind of new to those conversations too.
• 19:57
  And they can be, like, very emotional about it sometimes. "But when are you going to die?" But then they can also- Hmm... be so weirdly, like, creepily matter-of-fact about it sometimes too, in the way that kids can be.
• 20:09
  You know? Like, my daughter- Yeah... has been like, "Oh, when you die, can I have that bracelet?" [laughs] Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah. No, they're ruthless. "Uh, yeah, sure. Sure, no problem."
• 20:18
  And then, like, we have a senior dog who's about to turn, we think, like, 15. And so they're telling- Mm... everybody, like we'll be out and about, and they'll be like, "Oh, our dog's about to turn 100.
• 20:29
  She's gonna die soon." And then you just watch people, like, cross. They're like, "We don't even know you. Why are you..." And now I'm talking about death with a four-year-old. So- I think that's great, though...
• 20:40
  it's, it's very- First of all, I c- I can't get over this dinosaur thing, like they're gonna come back to reclaim their fuels, you know, that we've been, we've been, we've woken them up and they, they need to come back.
• 20:48
  But- I mean- That's awesome... I think, yeah, I love that. My kids, like, don't talk about it that much, which I, I guess is a relief, 'cause when I was a kid, I was hyper-focused on end-of-the-world type stuff. Mm-hmm.
• 21:01
  And maybe it was kind of the, like, the monoculture where we would watch TV at, whatever it was, 10:00 news, and they would be like the...
• 21:09
  You talk about the Doomsday Clock, which terrified me when I was a kid, 'cause it was always like 30 seconds to midnight, you know? Yeah. And so I'm terrified about that.
• 21:19
  And then because it was the monoculture, they'd be like, "There's a cult that believes the end of the world is tomorrow." And I would- Mm-hmm... be freaking out thinking, like, "What if they're right? What do they know?"
• 21:29
  And my parents would joke- Yeah... about it with my brother, like, "Well, nice knowing you." And I was mad at them for taking that, you know, like, not taking it seriously enough.
• 21:37
  I don't know what they would've done, but m- my kids... And then even with our dog, I, I'm c- Quinn knows how obsessed I am with my dog.
• 21:44
  I'm like, "Well, I'm gonna lose my mind when he dies, so we're getting another dog in a couple weeks to buffer that in advance." Sure.
• 21:51
  But they, they seem so carefree that it's almost concerning that they don't seem to think about death that much. But I'm kind of relieved, 'cause I'm highly unqualified to discuss that.
• 22:01
  Quinn, did you think about that stuff a lot when you were a kid? Not too much. I mean, I think it was a lot of, you know, fist in the air, we're gonna live forever type of thing, you know?
• 22:11
  But at the same time, like, I'm like the stand by me generation. It's like you wanna see a dead body. Like, shit was real. Oh, God. So, you know, talk about independence, 100%. Yeah, I don't know.
• 22:22
  We've had a bunch of dogs. We've had a couple dogs die. You know, we haven't had any grandparents go yet, but we, we talk about that. My kids' grandparents, not mine. W- we talk about that.
• 22:32
  One of the kids in my oldest's class died very suddenly a couple years ago. Mm. And that was interesting just- Yeah... I think it was like a,
• 22:42
  "Oh, that can happen," realization, which is not, one, not something they encounter every day, and in part because, I don't wanna say they're intentionally sheltered or sheltered, but obviously they're not privy to, like, Gaza as much.
• 22:56
  You know, or my kids were, were your kids' age during COVID, and, you know, I didn't show them the New York Times page. It said like 100,000 people dead, nor- Yeah... that it then was, you know, 15X that eventually.
• 23:09
  Because one, they can't process those numbers in any capacity at that age. They barely know they have hands, you know? And two, because one thing at a time, you know?
• 23:18
  But we do try to talk about it, and we were in Los Angeles for a lot of that time, where they would see homeless people everywhere because they refuse to build housing. You know, so I think there's a procedure to it.
• 23:30
  I don't know that we are doing it anywhere near correctly, but I, the short answer is I think they're more aware of it than I was, at least. Let me put it that way. Mm.
• 23:39
  Caitlin, I was doing some, reading some, up on some interviews with you, and I did not know that you had a part of your life where you were in the, an evangelical church situation. And- Ooh...
• 23:50
  I'm curious whether, how much doomsday, you know- Mm-hmm... or the Rapture figured into those conversations. Yeah. My, my parents weren't super into end-of-the-world doomsday stuff. They weren't preppers.
• 24:03
  But if you were even, I think, remotely part of the evangelical world in the '90s as I was, certainly that was like peak Y2K.
• 24:16
  Oh, yeah Peak Left Behind series, is that a cultural touch point you're familiar with? Oh, yeah. That one, unfortunately- In Virginia in the '90s, that was a big one. Yeah. For sure. Yeah.
• 24:28
  I mean, the first time I heard about the Rapture or the Second Coming, it was so terrifying. It's like, I just- Yeah... thought the world was just gonna keep going. I, I was aware of death, but this is a whole new thing.
• 24:43
  It could just end at any miment- minute, and if you're not believing the right things or being good when that happens, then you kinda just deserve whatever punishment is coming to you.
• 24:53
  That's a pretty big stick for a kid, you know? It's, it's terrifying. And so it was really wonderful to leave that theology and worldview behind [laughs] for so many reasons. Why? But that was one of them.
• 25:08
  And yet, there are times, like when I was, you know, really processing my climate anxiety and climate grief where I was like, "I feel like this is bringing up a lot of end of the world stuff for me." You know?
• 25:21
  Um, and so that was part of my, my work to unpack that, and it, it was interesting.
• 25:27
  I'd hear friends at youth group say, "Oh, I hope I can do this or that, or study this, or go live here, or have this life experience before the world ends."
• 25:38
  We were just casually assuming that we were living in the end times. And- Like it's curfew or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. At some point that's gonna happen, and so I hope it doesn't ruin too much of my, my fun.
• 25:49
  But I think there's, you know, some emerging research into youth mental health and some international polls that show really high percentages of young people fear the future and believe that humanity is doomed.
• 26:09
  And so I, I think it's very different reasons, you know, d- comparing evangelical theology to an awareness of the climate crisis, but I do worry about what that means for kids developmentally. Yeah.
• 26:25
  I remember in high school we... I, I guess I always had the end of the world as a scientific notion that was gonna happen anyway.
• 26:34
  Our high school is gigantic, and it has a planetarium in, uh, one of the courtyards, and we had this- Oh... chemistry teacher who some bad boys in my class would torture all the time by just get out, getting up- Oh...
• 26:45
  and walking out of class and pulling the fire alarm 'cause they were bored.
• 26:49
  And I swear he did this to, to us on purpose, but at the end of the year we went to the planetarium to see this show, this space show, and it ended up being about how the sun was gonna burn out one day, and what the- Oh...
• 27:00
  what would hap- We all came out very shaken and gray, and that was like, that was Doc Halstead's revenge on us, and we completely deserved it. But it is, yeah, it's a lot to grasp.
• 27:09
  It is a lot of scary shit that y- it's amazing that you would think kids would hold onto that.
• 27:14
  And also at the same time, I'm just reading this book right now about Rasputin, and thinking back to this is not, we're not even living in an era where kids would grow up and 10 of your 13 siblings would die in front of your hou- Mm-hmm...
• 27:24
  in front of you, and you wouldn't even name the kid- Like Clockwork... until they're three years old 'cause- Yeah. Right... yeah, like you wouldn't expect it.
• 27:29
  Or you just name them all the same name, 'cause you're like, "I'm g- there's gonna be seven Steves. Like, why would I get attached to six Steves?" Y- yeah. Yeah, exactly. Um, can I pause for a second?
• 27:38
  Your high school had a planetarium? We had a s- there was, like, a cage where people could smoke in the middle of ours [laughs] instead of a fucking planetarium. Yeah. No, our high school is just gigantic. Good shit.
• 27:47
  It has two pools, three theaters. What? This is just when I was there. Over six gyms. Oh my God. What? And it's 'cause it's gigantic. It's, like, the public high school, so, um- That's like a university. Mm.
• 27:58
  Yeah, I don't know- Yeah... if it's just 'cause it's the public high- I mean, that's... Okay. Well, we're... Okay. Well, one cool... Can I just say- This, this, this explains a lot. Continue.
• 28:06
  Can I shout out a cool thing that they do now?
• 28:07
  They have a pro- they have a class called i- it's called Geometry in Action or something like that, but basically these kids build houses for Habitat for Humanity, and these kids- Cool...
• 28:16
  like will build an entire house, and then they'll put it on a truck and go send it somewhere, and you see them- That's amazing... being built, which, yeah, it is really cool, so.
• 28:23
  I don't know why that requires a planetarium, but I think that's awesome. Well, then we're gonna go to Mars and look down at the, at the planets. Mm.
• 28:30
  But, yeah, this is the school that my kid is gonna go to next year, so I'm excited for him and scared for him and all the things. The same one you went to. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Wow.
• 28:38
  I mean, I know after COVID and w- school switching, I'm like, you know, who knows, he may hate it and we go somewhere else.
• 28:46
  My dad has told me several times he would pay for them to go to Catholic, private Catholic school. I don't want that to... But, you know, hopefully he'll enjoy it and have a great time. Mm.
• 28:56
  And we've been quietly seeding his social life over the last years, where he knows kids from camp and teams, and he's excited, so we'll see what, what comes of it. That...
• 29:06
  It al- the school also has a daycare for the students who are parents as well, which I think is cool. That's cool. I mean- Take the kids to the planetarium. Yeah. Caitlin, can I... Mm.
• 29:13
  Let's talk about judgment for a second. Have you read the new or even heard about the new George Saunders book, Vigil? I haven't read it. Okay. But I've listened to a few interviews with him. I'm, I'm aware of it.
• 29:23
  Have you read it? Yeah. I mean, he's fantastic. I've loved all his stuff. But I- Yeah...
• 29:28
  try to go into, this drives my kids crazy, I try to go into books and movies and stuff these days, if it seems like it's gonna be good or it's a favorite author or creator of whatever kind, I'm like, I don't wanna know.
• 29:37
  And so I went into this blind, not having- Oh, sure... any idea that it was so applicable. But you should check it out. It's fantastic, 'cause it really- Yeah...
• 29:46
  in his typical incredibly potent and eloquent, and often hit you over the head, and often not really examines these sort of, what have we done with our time judgment, apocalypse- Yeah... uh, type of thing. Yeah.
• 30:00
  You know, is it meaningful at all for someone to repent at the end because- Yeah... they've already hurt somebody or whatever. It's very interesting, I th- anyways, that's the aside.
• 30:09
  It's, um- Can you remind me, is it a death bed conversation or is it a, like, an afterlife purga- or is that a spoiler? All, yes. Okay. The answer is yes. All right. Let's go with that. Let's go with that.
• 30:20
  It's only he could do it, you know? It's so weird and fantastic. So anyways, let's talk about your book. Do your kids know you wrote a book? They do. They do? Yes.
• 30:29
  Do they know that they are, like, indirectly involved, like they're part of the catalyst for you writing this book? No. They're not really aware of that part. Interesting. Interesting.
• 30:39
  How much have you talked with them a- out loud about as you've developed these essays, like you said, th- you've been writing these for so long, and it- how that's evolved.
• 30:48
  Do these conversations you have with yourself and with the book extend at all to them, and do you bring that back into the book at all? Again, knowing that they're very young, obviously. Yeah.
• 30:58
  I mean, if you ask them, "What is your mom's book about?" Mm-hmm. I don't think that they would be able to give you a succinct pitch for it. Mm. They're not totally- Mm-hmm... sure. Mm-hmm.
• 31:09
  I think they're aware that it's about climate change. Mm. But I, I don't... They haven't really been all that interested in it. Mm-hmm. That tracks. But they're, like, excited that my picture- Yeah...
• 31:20
  is on the back of the book. Mm-hmm. They're like, "That's our mom's book." Mm-hmm. Or they'll see it in the bookstore, and that's a really fun moment for them.
• 31:28
  But they haven't asked me to read it to them or tell them more about it. I think they just think it's cool. They, they know about books and they're- Yeah... they're like, "It's cool that my mom wrote one."
• 31:39
  My daughter is lobbying for my next book to be called Baby Animal. Sure. She wants it to be like- Why not?... more animal focused.
• 31:46
  So yeah, I think there's a little bit more investment in my second book from my ch- [laughs] Mm. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That, that all tracks. Dedicated to her, not her brother. Yeah.
• 31:55
  Claire, your boys talk about your book every day, right? [laughs] You know what? I gotta say, it's, uh...
• 32:00
  James is my younger son, and he is, will give me the most hard time, but then will sort of surprise me with the most, I don't know, k- He's the one who had me read h- one of my books to him, and he enjoyed it.
• 32:13
  How- And, and he even said about one of the characters, he's like, "I like so-and-so. He's a good guy." And I... And that was incredibly sweet to me, especially 'cause my son is also kind of a, he's a big bro.
• 32:24
  He loves sports and throwing his body around. He doesn't have gir- gal pals and things like that. But he loves books with girls on the cover. I don't know if he does that on purpose, but Raina Telgemeier books. Mm-hmm.
• 32:37
  And so- Oh, yeah... I like that aspect of it. And his book has girl, you know, illustration of girls on the cover. So, so they know. They haven't really quite read them, of course, you know.
• 32:46
  But, you know, I don't think they understand what it's like to write a book, 'cause I'm, I'm kind of interested, Caitlin, in how much of a hard sell or not a hard sell it was to sell this book of essays, 'cause I...
• 32:56
  Selling a book is, to a pl- to a publisher, is hard as shit. Mm-hmm. And it is so beyond whether your book is well-written, whether it's- Oh, yeah...
• 33:04
  like, it's all about whether this book can sell and recoup the money- Mm-hmm... for the publisher.
• 33:09
  And so I'm curious about whether, what the journey was to find a publisher and get it out there, and whether it was a hard, a hard sell at all.
• 33:16
  I was really worried about that, because I think in some ways it kind of had three strikes against it. It was, like, an essay collection, not a nonfiction book of parenting advice.
• 33:28
  And essay collections, you know, I feel as a genre is kind of hard to sell, and then it was about climate change, which people aren't generally stoked to talk about or think about for obvious reasons. And then also it,
• 33:42
  you know, coming at all of it from the perspective of a parent. And
• 33:48
  I think books that are about parenting and about sort of the existential side of it, and what does all of this mean for me as a person, are maybe a tougher sell than books that deliver, like, how-to advice. And so- Mm...
• 34:05
  yeah, I, I was, I didn't know how it would do, but it was also a book that I felt like I wanted. I, early on as a parent, so seven years ago, I, I had this full shelf of books that were,
• 34:19
  you know, essays and anthologies about nature writing and climate change, and I just didn't feel like there was often stories of parenthood in those books, or the perspective of people who are parenting young children and thinking about these things.
• 34:37
  And then conversely, in the parenting books that I was reading as a new parent, I wasn't seeing anything about, you know, climate change or sustainability except for- Mm... you know, select titles.
• 34:49
  And I think now there are a lot more books that understand the intersections between those two topics, and I'm really glad that mine can be part of that conversation.
• 35:01
  There was a moment that felt really kind of just meant to be when I was querying agents for representation. My email to my now agent, Nicole Cunningham at Trellis, when she received it, she was, like,
• 35:19
  a new parent and New York City was covered in orange smoke from Canadian wildfires. Mm.
• 35:25
  And so she was feeling a lot of that parental climate anxiety, and I, I think that it's something that many parents feel deeply and talk about with their friends and, and care about. And- Yeah...
• 35:44
  I do think there's an audience of people who are interested in it. Well, I like that you also talk about green motherhood, like performative green motherhood, and I mean, that starts early, I think.
• 35:55
  I remember, you know, when I think I was even pregnant, and you start talking about diapers and cloth diapers versus disposable diapers, and reacting extremely strongly to the idea of disposable diapers, I mean, to cloth diapers because
• 36:11
  knowing deep down I'm not strong enough to do that. Like I, you know, I can't do that.
• 36:16
  And then thinking, and then flipping it on its head, and that's just something I struggle with sometimes at the root of Evil Witches, and I, I, I think that's part of, like, Evil Witches is realizing that ev- even the people who cloth diaper...
• 36:27
  lose it on their kids sometimes, but just like- Oh... feeling already less, less than, you know? 'Cause we're- Yeah... already shitting this up so bad and being so basic and, you know? Literally.
• 36:36
  And so talk a little bit about how you, how you kind of thread that needle in the book, and also in real life between the, the attempts we make versus the reality of it all.
• 36:47
  And also I'm curious as a backup too, sorry, I'm gonna just like tack on, Joe, I wanna know about the dad's, the green dadhood aspect of that as well. But yeah, go off, queen. Hey. Yes.
• 36:58
  So I think that was one of the most exciting experiences of researching the book.
• 37:05
  There's an environmental ethicist, Sarah Jaquette Ray, who came up with the term third green shift, which builds on the second shift, which is, as you know, a term feminists use to name the unpaid household and caregiving labor that many working mothers in heterosexual relationships do after the workday.
• 37:25
  And so the third green shift names the work for what it is. It's the researching products and alternatives that are low toxin and that limit plastics and packaging waste.
• 37:42
  It's making and preparing foods in ways that minimize food waste. It's the cloth diapering. Many of these things are time intensive, labor intensive. There's a reason these are not convenience choices, because- Mm...
• 37:58
  they're, they're difficult. They do not, they do not fit in easily, especially in a, a, a double income working family.
• 38:07
  And I really appreciated just naming that and how much more pressure parents are putting on themselves when they take on trying to address this planetary crisis by changing their, their own individual and household actions.
• 38:26
  And one of the researchers I spoke to who is a maternal mental health researcher, Alison C. Davis,
• 38:35
  she has this really great paper called Untangling the Double Bind of Green Motherhood, and she's basically, this really doesn't help moms, and it doesn't actually really help the planet all that much, not as much as we would want it to.
• 38:49
  And,
• 38:51
  a- and then also just in her paper, she unpacks how the pressure that, that new moms can feel, she has this great term, maternal eco distress, to name the, the kind of caring that new parents can experience for, for the planet and for their ecosystem.
• 39:11
  I- if it's not supported, like if those values aren't shared by friends and family, or if the household has a high degree of inequity in terms of the gendered split for household labor, those things can all complicate green motherhood, and it can lead to, to self-sacrificing behaviors, to burnout.
• 39:33
  It can be really bad for maternal mental health.
• 39:37
  And just naming that was so helpful, and recognizing that this is just another ideal of motherhood, that the green motherhood is an ideal, and it's impossible to live up to.
• 39:49
  And, you know, it's funny to me, like when I'm thinking about the kind of efforts of sustainability we've made at our house, like none of our biggest wins have to do with me and my mothering, or me and like- Hmm...
• 40:02
  my household labor. Hmm. And, and my husband and I are fairly equal in our partnership there.
• 40:07
  It's, it's not our cooking and our cleaning and our parenting that has reduced our, our carbon impact, it's that we added solar panels to our house, and [laughs] we drive a small used EV, and we do a lot of bi-...
• 40:23
  Like those are our biggest wins. We installed a heat pump. These, these are things that are expensive, and we've taken out, you know, loans to do them, but they're not, they're not parenting choices.
• 40:33
  And then a lot of our other choices have been made possible through public infrastructure.
• 40:38
  It's not us as individuals, it's, it has a lot to do with the community that we live in, that we have curbside compost pickup, or that we've got
• 40:47
  really robust biking infrastructure and bike lanes that make it safe to, to bike to our neighborhood public school. Like these are not just choices that we're making as individuals.
• 40:56
  I'm curious too about, I mean, maybe this feeds into it all. I was thinking of you, both of you guys yesterday, just literally walking by my son's room and his light was on, and he was God knows where out of the house.
• 41:08
  And I was just thinking of the different, the fork in the path of I can leave this on and yell at... In my family, yelling means any time you say something remotely critical. Mm-hmm.
• 41:19
  So yelling does not always mean a raised voice, but yell at him about going to turn off the light, or just turn it off myself and save the money, and save myself the, the energy.
• 41:30
  But am I teaching, you know, am I just enabling him then to be another white man letting a woman clean up his mess, and, you know, save the planet for him?
• 41:40
  I know not that, but I'm just curious whether you get nagging fatigue when it co- maybe your kids never need to be nagged. If they don't, I don't wanna hear about it actually. But, you know- Have a nice day...
• 41:49
  is that part of it for you? I feel like we have just reached the stage of parenting where our kids are capable of so much, and they are also capable of so much ignoring. It's like- Hmm...
• 42:04
  we just are repeating ourselves- Mm-hmm... all the time. Like even for- With, with great power comes like neglected responsibility left and right. It is amazing. It's like even for nice things, like I could be like,
• 42:19
  "Would anybody like me to get you a drink of water? Would you like a drink of water? Would you like me, would you like me to bring you a drink of water?" Oh. "I'll bring you something very nice."
• 42:32
  And, and they're just like, I mean, I feel like I could offer candy sometimes and they would ju- I mean, no, they would, they would hear me if it was candy.
• 42:39
  But- I offer to wipe my son's glasses off 'cause his glasses are always so smeared. Yeah. And they're like, "Do you want me to wi-?" No.
• 42:45
  And then when I do do it, I say, "Your girlfriend will never do this for you, just so you know." But, and then I'm like, again, like here comes like- I know, right...
• 42:51
  the nice, nice with the slap in the face at the same time. So, but that's some, honestly, Caitlin, I need to hear that. Like, it's a relief that you're- Ugh... not raising like green angels. No.
• 43:01
  I mean, right now I think our biggest issue is food waste. It's just like we, we are just plates full of food into the compost- Mm-hmm... all the time. Yeah. Yeah. Like what they're into changes all the...
• 43:14
  And I'm trying not to, I just want them to have a good relationship with food and their bodies. That's my biggest value at the moment, and we'll get there with the rest of it maybe.
• 43:23
  Have you tried making your own bubblegum flavored pop? Have you, you know, maybe tried that on the homestead as they- Mm-hmm... as the trad wives do? That's right. No, never tried it. Okay.
• 43:33
  That's what we're aiming for here. Quinn, don't you get tired of nagging too? Like, when do you give up? I don't know if you have a, if you're like, "I'm just, I'll just do this for them," or, "I'm just gonna let it go."
• 43:42
  Or just gonna throw your hands up. Claire, all we do is send each other pictures of our kids' shit all over the house. So the answer is one, it's again, the barbell. I have both completely given up, but I will also
• 43:53
  hunt them through the house now. M- you know, we used to be like, "Oh, we've got one with ADHD and she's worried about this." I'm like, "I will stop you
• 44:03
  mid-pee to tell you to go get your fucking socks off the living room table, because I have already asked and you know they're not supposed to be there and I'm not doing it anymore. I'm just not, I'm not doing it.
• 44:15
  And my wife is 100% not gonna pick 'em up for you. We're not responsible. Go do your shit." But then there's other times where they're like, "I forgot my water bottle." I'm like, "Good luck.
• 44:26
  I don't know what to tell you." Yeah. I, I've bought you so many hundreds dollars that has your name. You put your stickers on it. We can only remind you, like you said, "Would you like a glass of water?
• 44:35
  Would you like, don't forget your water bottle. Don't forget to put some ice in. It's gonna be warm today."
• 44:39
  And then the next phase, when they say we're, like Claire said, we're yelling at them, which is just instructing them. When I say, "Don't forget it," and they do, that's it. I'm out. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah.
• 44:51
  I did everything I could. We had one moment where my daughter and I were playing at some playground, and the number of times I told them all, bring their water bottles, and she just- Mm-hmm...
• 45:02
  sometimes she'll forget it out of spite. Oh, yeah. And I have, I have this. This goes everywhere with me. It says, "Dad," all the things. You can pick it out from 100 miles away. Love it. And it's always full.
• 45:13
  I don't, I, it's always full and it's got ice, and the kids can hear when there's water. And I was drinking and she goes, "I forgot mine. Can I have some of yours?" I said, "You can't."
• 45:21
  And she, and the look on her face, she was so upset. And I was like, "I, clearly you're not gonna listen. This is, you're put- this is the equivalent of putting your hand on the stove.
• 45:30
  I want you to know this is delicious, and I'm- Mm... enjoying it, and I remembered to do it, and I don't always remember." Does her, your- Oh.
• 45:37
  Oh, it was, it was, she was, she came home and told my wife, and my wife was like, "Jesus Christ." But I was like, "She's gonna, she, she's gotta learn because they c- they cannot- That's right...
• 45:46
  come home and make it my problem." Go, "I'm mad 'cause I didn't drink water all day." I'm like, "That's a choice you made. You're not four and seven anymore, guys. I, I don't know what to tell you." Funny. So.
• 45:56
  My algorithm has shown me, like this is so on topic, like my, I have gotten served at least two different videos about moms being regretful or refusing to share a water bottle with a child.
• 46:08
  And so this is definitely like in the world. Deal with it. Also, I don't want their backwash shit in here. This is the most important- Ugh... thing in my life. They, there is food- Well, there's the-... in their water.
• 46:16
  I don't want that. The, this woman caught a video, she caught on video her son sneezing or coughing while he was drinking from her water bottle. So she's, you see the spew.
• 46:26
  'Cause I like to pretend backwash isn't a thing. Sometimes I need to- Mm-mm. I'm not that precious. Sometimes- Mm-hmm... if I see a hair in a food, I'm like, I can deal with it.
• 46:34
  But the seeing the spew, you're like, there's no- Mm-hmm. Once you see that. I have a question for both of you. This is truly a household thing that I, like one of my bugaboos.
• 46:42
  How do you guys clean your kids' water bottles, and how often? How often do I clean them? Any of you. How do you do it? I, they just sit next to the sink- Oh... until something happens. Sometimes I've thrown them away.
• 46:53
  I've just, I'm like, well, you know what? I, I mean, I don't know if I'm admitting to something that the internet will hate me for, but I, I just put their Hydro Flasks in the wash, the dishwasher.
• 47:01
  Are we not supposed to do that? Who cares? That's what I do. Does that work? No, here's the thing. Two different answers, Claire. I will not clean their shit up for them,
• 47:10
  but I will if they leave it out at night, I'm putting it in the dishwasher, and you're welcome. It's, it doesn't have whatever the current virus is in it now. I kinda- But I'm not gonna find it for them.
• 47:21
  I have a horror story about water bottles. Please. You, you know those like sippy cups with the 360 lids that kind of like suction down? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 47:32
  Like those, those are typically what's like their bedtime water bottles. Mm-hmm. And one time my kid was like, "This tastes gross." Uh-oh. "Can you get me..."
• 47:42
  Have you ever, have you, if it's been a while, have you ever picked up, it's, it is gross. There's a reason the water tastes- 100%. Yeah. And you know if they're saying it's gross, that you've- Yeah...
• 47:50
  crossed a line, 'cause they'll never tell you. It's a really bad- You're like, I'll deal with this immediately. Uh, right. I'm sure. I have no control over the water bottle situation in our house.
• 48:00
  They are coming in from God knows where, 'cause they'll go to some festival and some insurance company will be giving away these plastic water bottles, and they'll take them, and I, you know.
• 48:10
  And then again, here I am at the crossroads of do I just, I can't immediately throw this away, you know? But also I'm not j- I'm like, this probably is not as healthy as a glass or steel water bottle.
• 48:21
  But now here I am faced with the trash, and then they drink it, and then they leave it by the sink. And I don't wanna hassle them 'cause I also don't trust their ability to wash it correctly.
• 48:30
  But also, are you putting this plastic in the dishwasher? So it just sits there for weeks. And, um, so- That's one of my no's. I'm just like, we're not buying plastic water bottles But I don't have a choice.
• 48:38
  It comes, it shows up. Yeah. Like, that's- Well, that's part of the independence. But they can't make your... If it's in the house, like, I'm tossing it. I'm not gonna, we're not gonna, like, reuse that.
• 48:47
  I didn't buy them all a fucking Klean Kanteen so that we can reuse those things. I feel like you have a- That's really selfish...
• 48:52
  hierarchy of water bottles, because in my mind I'm like, these are the ones that kind of leak a little, and so that would be- We-... okay for you to lose. So you can take it to this riskier environment. Right.
• 49:03
  So you are entering the phase where you gotta get ruthless about that and just cut out, if it's leaking, it's out of here. We're not doing it anymore. Yeah. Because that's- Yeah...
• 49:11
  just gonna be a pr- it's a problem you're gonna deal with.
• 49:14
  It's like my wife, who's so busy and successful and hardworking, and the most incredible mom and partner, all this, and I, sometimes I'll lean over her shoulder and see her dismiss, like, a, like, an iPhone notification that's like, "You're out of space."
• 49:26
  And instead of dealing with it, she just hits dismiss. And I finally was like- Oh, yeah... "That is gonna keep coming back until you just take 30 seconds to do it." And she's, "But I don't have it."
• 49:35
  I was like, "But it's eating away your life and your life force," and that's what a leaking water bottle is. Just nope, out of here. Wow. You failed. That's deep.
• 49:45
  I have these nice water bottles that are, like, glass and has a silicone cover on it, and my son was mad, my younger son, because he wanted to put something in the fridge and there wasn't room for it, and I just had mine in there.
• 49:55
  Oh. And he suggested that I keep my water bottles on the countertop. It is selfish- Oh... for me to keep them cold- Oh... 'cause I need to keep room for him in the, in the fridge, so.
• 50:03
  My other thing I'm working on is with my older son, he has this habit lately of keeping his, putting, ta- taking dishes to the sink but not going the extra mile and putting them in the dishwasher.
• 50:14
  And he's more receptive to s- this kind of stuff than the younger one. But I'll say,
• 50:19
  and this is, I feel like, witchy, I'll say, "Paul, when you leave these things next to the sink and don't put them in the dishwasher, it's sending a message that some person, some invisible person who's less important than you will put that away.
• 50:31
  And I know you don't think that, right?" And so that's, so I'm trying to, like, slightly guilt him. You know, we'll see. Oh, I love that. I mean, he hears it at least. Mm-hmm. Yeah, so. Mm-hmm.
• 50:41
  What are your kids gonna do this summer? What do you have planned for them, or what do they not have planned? Yeah, they're in a lot of summer camps. That's, that's what we do. Okay.
• 50:49
  Both my spouse and I work, and we don't have grandparents nearby. Both of my parents worked growing up, but we kind of had a mix of grandparent care and then very '90s era relaxed teenage child babysitter. You're like-
• 51:05
  Yeah... at what point can I just hire a 12-year-old to hang out with my kids? I don't know.
• 51:10
  And so they're going to a mix of, you know, outdoor camps and camps with the Y, and different, different arts organizations in town that host summer camps.
• 51:23
  We, we did do the thing with my seven-year-old, my daughter, who has more camp options just because of her age, where we tried to sync up with other families who have a similar childcare situation.
• 51:35
  She was, so it's like she'd go into a bunch of random camps, but she'll have friends at every camp. And then my son goes to a, a preschool that also offers a summer camp, so he'll be- Love that...
• 51:48
  he'll be there, which for him is nice. At four- Yeah... it's, it's nice to have the routine and the stability. A rout- Familiar place, familiar friends, familiar teachers.
• 51:57
  Occasionally he'll do a camp with his sister, but it's the seven-year-old. But I, I'm staring down the, how our schedule's really gonna change every week. Different- Mm-hmm... slightly different pickups.
• 52:08
  Nothing stresses out my wife- Slightly different drop-offs... more. Yeah. I call it the- Like-... patchwork quilt of summer activities- Oh, yeah... and staying on. That's why I'm always- Yeah, my d-...
• 52:15
  I'm hammering always this, this is, like, a pre-promo I guess. I have a family advisor I call my calen- Here it comes... calendar lady. I'm ready to hear from her. I, I, you know what? No, I have a code.
• 52:25
  Actually, I'll drop it in- Yep... to put it in- There it is... for people who listen. Yep. But I believe very much in this scope creep of, of the calendars and appointments that's on moms. Yeah. That's very unfair.
• 52:36
  And I lo- last year, or earlier this year, I hired a woman to help me anytime I get anything that involves calendar or scheduling or remembering. Yeah. And I just shoot it to her, 'cause I can't keep it all in my brain.
• 52:48
  I could not find a way to get this work done in an intelligent way. I was dropping the ball. So this amazing lady has helped with all the camp forms. She's been helping my son sign up for some...
• 52:59
  They have a mandatory, or they have a summer school at the high school that kinda actually just tours you around the high school. She got him set up for that. It's so amazing- Cool...
• 53:06
  to just have some help, 'cause it just creeps up on you. And the summer stuff, remembering today is 9:30 drop-off, next week it's 10:00 drop-off. Mm-hmm. They have lunch this day. They don't have lunch this day.
• 53:16
  Make, you know, field trip, sunscreen, all of that.
• 53:18
  Like, it is impossible to keep in, in one's head, and I think it's, like, moms especially, sorry Quinn, dads too, but mostly moms who like- No, I know I'm, I am the unusual one here. I'm, I'm fully with it. Yeah.
• 53:31
  Is n- it is 95% on moms. The dads who- Yeah... who electively or for whatever situation carry this shit is, is rare. I'm proud to do it.
• 53:41
  I, I started off doing it 'cause I like logistics and event stuff, but also 'cause my wife was carrying the entire show, and we had three kids in three years, and, and my job was to do- Oh my God...
• 53:50
  everything else, and that's great. And also I'm just, like, slightly better at it, and she's better at 9 million other things. [laughs] But it still stresses her out because my kids make it her problem every time. Mm.
• 54:04
  E- even though they know- Really?...
• 54:05
  the invites, they get a birthday party invitation, and either they don't give it to a parent or they give it to Mom, even though seven million times they have been told they need to give it to me because Mom does not have time to look at the calendar or do all this shit.
• 54:18
  They will be like, "Well, Mom forgot about the birthday." And that is when I lock them outside, because that shit- Yeah... is not okay. And they know that. I love it.
• 54:27
  Do you, do you get treated like a unicorn often still, Quinn? Do people be like, "Wow, good for you.
• 54:32
  You're, you know, like, parenting" Do they, do, do you still, or everyone knows you enough by now to be like, "Quinn does this stuff"?
• 54:39
  Well, you know I don't hang out with people, so it doesn't, there's no one to give me credit or- Or throw sticks. Again, this quite literally is my social life. Yeah, no, I try to equalize it everywhere I can.
• 54:54
  You know, if I do- Yeah... interact with other human beings, I'm just like, "Yeah, that's, that's a deal." My wife's incredible.
• 54:58
  Like, why, why the hell should she be bothered with, is today, what Spirit Week day is today? She should just be- Yeah...
• 55:05
  the one who gets to wake up late and be excited that they're dressed like a fucking firecracker today, you know? Yes. And if they forgot, guess what? Which happens regularly.
• 55:13
  They can throw that at me, but I'm like, "I don't care. I can put it on the calendar." Yeah. "And you can see it. That's your job now." Yeah, I don't... I...
• 55:21
  Honestly, the biggest fight is truly in our house, which is me versus them not putting it on her. Mm-hmm. And she will, 'cause she's the greatest person alive, will 100% be like, "Ugh, I'm sorry, I shouldn't..."
• 55:32
  I'm like, "Da, da, pa, pa, pa, pa, pa. I understand, but, but we can't do that shit, man." Yeah. Okay. Kaitlyn, this is...
• 55:40
  I, I'm just curious, 'cause I also have an older daughter with a younger brother, and I'm curious how, how your kids are getting along these days. Oh. Well, it's good until it's not good. They'll be like- [laughs]...
• 55:51
  playing peacefully. That's it. And then it's, like, game over. They have a time limit. I'm not really sure what it is that goes off where they're like, and now we fall apart, but it does happen. Mm.
• 56:04
  And sometimes I'm like, "Do you hear how you're talking to each other?" I would be so annoyed if someone- Yeah... every time they said my name was like, "Oh, hey. Ooh."
• 56:18
  Can you speak to each other in ways that are like, ooh. But yeah, no, it, it... That's, like, honestly what takes a lot more of the parental involvement and supervision these days.
• 56:29
  It's not so much that they're, like, inherently doing dangerous things, because they have a pretty good sense of, like, risk around the house. But it's like stepping in to kinda cool the temperature or... Yeah.
• 56:44
  And sometimes it's like I think they like to fight. Mm. You're like- Oh, yeah. Y- Oh, yeah... you could, you could also move your body, or- Yeah... it seems like- Not going to... you know- But why? If you're- Yeah...
• 56:56
  really wanting to not be messed with, you could take this activity elsewhere. You have a sister, right? Do you have more siblings than that, or just the two of you? It's just the two of us, yeah. Okay.
• 57:07
  So, and is it very different with the boy and the girl than it was with the two sisters growing up?
• 57:12
  Not that I can tell so much yet, but I mean, it, parenting my son has been pretty different so far from parenting my daughter, and I don't know how much to attribute to gender or just I have two different kids, and they're just two different kids with two different interests.
• 57:29
  But in terms of, yeah, the, the age d- the age gap between my sister and I and my two kids is almost exactly the same, three years and three weeks. Mm. Completely intentionally. Okay. So. Interesting.
• 57:40
  Yeah, I mean, we'll see as they move forward.
• 57:44
  Definitely I think if you asked my, my younger sister and my son maybe there would be some similarities where it's like everybody knows him as, like, mama's little brother, and oh yeah, you're...
• 57:56
  They're always doing the thing where they're like, "How are you alike or not like the child that we already know from your family?" Which I think is probably classic younger sibling thing to face.
• 58:04
  I literally told my daughter this the other day. She's headed to middle school next year with my older son, and she's... I was like, "Oh, what are you nervous about this?"
• 58:12
  And she goes, "I'm nervous about being known as his sister." I was like, "It is a rite of passage. Everyone with a sibling has been through it, and you're lucky, he's pretty great. But also, do your own thing."
• 58:24
  She's the one who showed up, she was probably three, and he was five in preschool, and it was her first year in the school, and he was five year old on campus, like their little dirt campus.
• 58:39
  And she walked in the first day and told everyone it was his birthday, and just started sing- would sing Happy Birthday to him when... She was punking him minute one, day one at his own school.
• 58:47
  [laughs] She was like, "I'm not... I'm in, I'm the captain now." So. That's great, though. It was- That's hilarious. It was pretty incredible. He came home and he was just like, "She fucked up my whole thing."
• 58:57
  I was like, "Yeah." My son has always, like from the very start, been a wonderful sharer with his sister. Mm. Which I really appreciate.
• 59:06
  If I'm, like, slicing apples or, like, making a treat, he's always, "Can I bring one to Alm-" He's always, "Can I, can I bring one to Alma?" Or like- That's really sweet. That's nice...
• 59:16
  if we're at Trader Joe's and they're, like, handing out suckers- Very, yeah... like, "Can I bring one home for my..." And it, I, I will say that's a very sweet thing that I see. I was just curious, Kaitlyn,
• 59:27
  and I know it's more nuanced than that, but when I get into my feelings in my head, I still think, "God, and you're such a piece of shit, Claire. Be more like this."
• 59:34
  And I was reading about your efforts to be more sustainable and, you know, reading about your garden. I don't garden. I think it's 'cause my mom gardens, so therefore I'm like, fuck that.
• 59:44
  But I, you know, Cup of Joe and Big Salad, people... Quinn, I'm not sure how familiar w- you are with these, but they're very beloved publications and, and Kaitlyn works, she's...
• 59:53
  You're the managing, you're the managing editor, editorial director with both of them. What is your- Senior editor... type? For Big Salad. Senior editor, yeah.
• 1:00:01
  And so I just wanna know, like, I was having a bad week despite my attempts to block myself and make myself not wanna be online of refreshing Reddit, basically looking for the new thing, for the new ping, and I wanna know how you do your job, and then shut it down and get outside without getting sucked into it all.
• 1:00:18
  And, like, I was just reading about Trump comparing the height of the Sears Tower to the Empire State Building and, you know, and I was like, "I was just swimming in the lake an hour ago, and now I'm all mad about this," so tell me your secrets.
• 1:00:30
  Yeah, I mean, I, I think I, like everybody, I'm still trying to figure it out. I will say I regularly delete Instagram from my phone. Like, I- Relatable... I, I use Instagram for work.
• 1:00:43
  If I'm scouting photos for an issue or preparing for an interview with someone, I will be, like, all up and down their grid. But I try to keep that on my Chrome browser and not on my phone.
• 1:00:56
  And then if I have to post something, that's a phone activity, so I'll, like, redownload the app, do my post, and then delete it again. So that's one strategy.
• 1:01:04
  Like, I would love to just see the amount of times that I've downloaded and re- reinstalled Instagram. It's constant. It's like several times in one day sometimes. But then I think
• 1:01:16
  we spend a lot of time outdoors as a family, not as like a, a pressure of something we feel we have to do, but it's just something that my spouse and I share, and our kids share as something that we enjoy to do.
• 1:01:28
  So like just this past weekend, we went camping with a bunch of friends, which is one of our favorite things to do in the summer, is we just get as many families as possible to book up a campground, and then it feels like one huge, like, sleepover hangout the entire weekend.
• 1:01:44
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:01:44
  And it sounds exhausting, but with so many other kids and so many other parents, it's like they form a pack, and they just run around the campground, and there's always other parents to offer snacks and mac and cheese and juice boxes and sunscreen.
• 1:01:58
  And it's... You end up just feeling like you're doing less and your kids are getting more, and it's very, it's very fun. But we didn't go far.
• 1:02:08
  It was like 40 minutes away, kind of up the mountain, but we didn't have service all weekend.
• 1:02:13
  And so I, I end up coming away from those weekends, like, with not as many photos as I'd like, because my phone isn't always right on me. But it's very nice to spend your weekends- Just remember how nice service.
• 1:02:26
  It's so great... That, and that, that's a smart tip.
• 1:02:28
  My husband and I did a little camping before the kids were born, and then he wanted to take them camping, and I was like, "I can't honestly handle the idea of having no doors between me and my kids at all hours."
• 1:02:41
  Oh, sure. And so he'll take the kids camping, and then someone has to stay home with the dog. And so I just- Mm-hmm... I, I feel guilty 'cause I say yes, but also it's really hard for me to turn down my alone time.
• 1:02:53
  Like, I need my cone of silence- Mm-hmm... as the only girl in the house sometimes, so. But doing it with a big family sounds, or with a big group of families, I know what...
• 1:03:00
  Uh, it is amazing when the kids all watch themselves.
• 1:03:02
  Being outside, spending time outside, I have, I have told Claire and I've said before here, of all the work I've done in the past, whatever, eight years through all this, I, I think the most important 15 minutes to me was, [scoffs]
• 1:03:14
  judging by my shirt, was like a 14-minute phone call with Sesame Street about like how do we talk to three-year-olds about climate change. And- Mm... and, and I... They will never remember who I was, anything like that.
• 1:03:24
  But obviously Sesame Street means so much to me and my kids too, and I'm not sure- Yeah... if you're familiar, but since when we grew up, I think it's about 20 years ago, they shifted from
• 1:03:35
  three to four-year-olds to two to three-year-olds. Or it was four to five- Mm... to three to four. And that, as you know, with a four-year-old, that's a big difference.
• 1:03:42
  And there were a couple of other folks on the call and I, and, and we basically were like, you just talk about relationships. Relationships with- Yeah... your yard if you have one, any green space, a place you go. Yeah.
• 1:03:56
  A flower- Yeah... watch how it changes. Or animals or the, or with weather or your favorite tree.
• 1:04:01
  You have to start with something they can attach themselves to if they are lucky enough to have access to something like that. If not, try nature documentaries, whatever. But that is,
• 1:04:11
  I feel like, the most fundamental thing and why I love that idea of camping with a bunch of people and stuff. Let them have their independence and find a stream and, and do whatever.
• 1:04:18
  You don't have to hit them over the head with it. The thing we do try to hit them over the head with, and this is sort of a choose your own adventure, and I understand why people are less likely to do this.
• 1:04:30
  So I don't know if you know, my, my other job, the full-time thing is, is, is the media side of this and this, all the civic tech stuff. And we have this site literally called whatcanido.earth. And it is- I love that...
• 1:04:41
  for people who are like, "What the fuck am I supposed to do?" And we've got all this- Mm-hmm... crazy research and very rigorous actions, any different way- Yeah... you wanna show up. Mm-hmm.
• 1:04:49
  Because most of the stuff you are told is not real or not measurable.
• 1:04:56
  But at the same time, we're also big believers with social science, which, you know, take any science study and you can pick it apart now, but we are very social people. And so- Mm...
• 1:05:06
  if people come over and they're like, "Shit, those nice, you know, non-nightmare cleaning products actually work", then they might choose those, right? They, they might. That little thing does matter. Mm-hmm.
• 1:05:19
  I know that's not measurable. What it does is it puts a foot in the door. And eventually what you will find once your kids get older is it's really fun to then kick the door down and tell them that it's 20%
• 1:05:32
  green, this green parenting responsibility thing that we don't have time for, and 80% this is being done to you kids- Mm... by power and systems and the same people- Yeah...
• 1:05:46
  who are, are both on the public side and the private side who have no interest in, in whether you choose the, the clean stuff.
• 1:05:55
  And you talked about in, I don't, can't remember if it was one of the essays or, or something on your blog, which I know they interweave, but talking about how, how, how in the global north and the west, we're much closer to the causes than we are to the effects.
• 1:06:09
  But you're in the Pacific Northwest, I believe. The effects are here, obviously. Yeah. A little later than a lot of places and a little different, but fully unprepared for it, like so many places.
• 1:06:20
  But just being here, and we don't choose where we're born, but we do have a huge responsibility, obviously, being in the global north and west.
• 1:06:29
  Obviously, moms and, and, and parents who can't afford childcare of any kind or choosing between rent and air conditioning shouldn't have to. Sure. But if we are at all capable, knowing where to aim is very helpful.
• 1:06:42
  Mm-hmm. That's part of why we built this, but also we have tried to basically break this cycle with our kids of them thinking like, "Oh, we've gotta recycle." I'm just like, "It's not fucking real.
• 1:06:54
  Here's what you can do, and here's what is being done and, and why. And we wanna expose you to that so they can see through the cracks of, this is- Totally crazy. It's totally crazy.
• 1:07:05
  These things don't need to be made out of this. We don't need to rely on this. As our good friend, friend of the pod, Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson, world's greatest marine biologist says, she's, "We got all the shit.
• 1:07:15
  We don't have to invent anything new. We know how to do everything." Oh, yeah. It is just a matter of will, and that will is usually more informed people not being led astray.
• 1:07:25
  A- and again, like, as my kids have gotten older, it has become, hey, we're gonna make good choices at home 'cause we care about our bodies, and because we have friends over, that's semi-social.
• 1:07:33
  But mostly you need to understand the structures that are doing this, 'cause as you ask for a phone, as you participate in this, as you go online, you are being dissuaded, being disillusioned- Mm-hmm...
• 1:07:44
  of these things immediately, so much more than we ever were, right? Like, ours was like, this is your brain on drugs. Here's your couple scrambled eggs.
• 1:07:51
  Turns out we don't actually know anything about marijuana because we've never been allowed to study it, right? Th- their world is so different and, and so much more a disinformation complex. So that is our version of...
• 1:08:05
  Anyways, this is just my version of if climate change is everything, like Claire said, you know, whether it's public health or whatever, we're constantly trying to go them, this is why, and this is how we got here. Yeah.
• 1:08:18
  And the way to get to a greener place, you mentioned the Aid of the Twist scientist at one point. Yeah. The show where they show both versions, like- Yeah... one side's Terminator and the other side's not. Yeah.
• 1:08:29
  It's like, we know what to do. But- We do... and, and it's not your job, kids. It's definitely our job. Yeah. But you should know why mom and I are making the choices we're making, and we expect- Oh, yeah...
• 1:08:38
  you to make similar ones. So your four-year-old is not there yet, but that's how we go from relationships- Yeah...
• 1:08:45
  with trees and, and plants in a clover garden to you don't actually have to have a green lawn, and here's why. Yeah.
• 1:08:53
  I mean, I actually think that that is maybe the case for making individual and household level changes, is just to have those conversations with your kids about why you make the choices that you do, and why it's important to live in ways that align with your values, and the way that you would see the world heading.
• 1:09:15
  You know, I'm cr- critical of green motherhood, but I've also made tons of swaps in our house, and I explain those- Sure... to our kids. Like, this is why we have kind of ratty cloth napkins that we [laughs] use- Sure...
• 1:09:28
  at every dinner. And we just wash them instead of, you know, more paper towel. Or this is why we buy the toilet paper that we buy that's made of bamboo.
• 1:09:37
  Or, you know, even more so, my four-year-old, he loves cars and trucks and things that go. He's just a vehicle and wheels- Mm-hmm... kid. Mm-hmm.
• 1:09:49
  And so trying to explain to him, well, this is why we drive a Leaf instead of a, you know, an F-150. Yeah. Is here's why. And, and then, you know, he's, "Well, but what about a Cybertruck?"
• 1:10:05
  And I'm like, well, that's a whole different conversation. [laughs] How much time do you have, kid? Yeah. We are always explaining to our kids why we, you know, are buying our clothes secondhand, or why
• 1:10:17
  we are saying no to this or that or the other thing. And I think in terms of their ability to conceptualize different climate futures- Mm-hmm... the language that we use with them is very much along the lines of Dr.
• 1:10:32
  Ayana Elizabeth Johnson's, where she says, "We have the solutions. There are just people who make a lot of money off of not implementing them, and make a lot of money off of the problems."
• 1:10:45
  And, you know, why we vote for the, the people that we vote for, and the policies that we vote for. We went to our local No King rally and framed that in terms of a bunch of different values that we have.
• 1:11:01
  And, um- You're just saying, "This is who we are." You know? Again- Y-... is it, is it a drop in the ocean? Sure. If you, if you wanna be reductive and see it that way, measurably, sure.
• 1:11:10
  But might that implant in them, like, this idea of these are just the choices we make because we're deciding to, and hopefully that'll lead you to do more constructive things.
• 1:11:20
  And I love what you said at the first part of your reflection, which was like prioritizing relationships.
• 1:11:28
  Because I think sometimes we have this sense that to talk about relationships is kind of like a soft skill of- Mm-hmm... climate solutions. It's, it's touchy feely, it's warm, it's, you know.
• 1:11:41
  But I think there's a way in which we can think about, well, what are our ethical relationships to our neighbors, to our community, to our ecosystem, to the plants and animals, and non-humans that we share our, our bio region, our watershed with?
• 1:12:02
  Like, I, I really want kids who can think ecologically about those relationships in ways that are nuanced and complex. And Alison C. Davis, who's the maternal mental health researcher I mentioned earlier- Mm-hmm...
• 1:12:16
  she talks about how important it is to see ourselves in relationship with the natural world, and that we are also being cared for by it. Sure.
• 1:12:25
  And we are not just the only actors in our ecosystem doing bad things, but we are- Mm-hmm... things are being done to us.
• 1:12:34
  So sure, there's the political element of the people in charge who are doing things to us, but there are also so many good things being given to us from our ecosystem, and we're just part of this really interconnected web.
• 1:12:48
  And yeah, I think as our kids get older, it becomes important to help them see those relationships as our circle widens, and the, the relationships that are maybe harder to conceptualize, but are just as important.
• 1:13:03
  Like our relationship in the global north to parents and kids and families that are growing up in the global south, and for whom-
• 1:13:11
  The effects of climate change are, have been here and have been terrible and are unfair and unjust. And again, you can be as ruthless with, with your family and your family situation as you want.
• 1:13:26
  But we, you know, when it's a really hot day, we try to explain to them in fairly brusque terms, because I find that, that the longer I go, the less they pay attention. Hey, just so you know,
• 1:13:39
  there's probably three kids in your class who didn't have air conditioning this. And I just want you to think about that while you're at school today when somebody- Oh, yeah... that's just, that's what's up, you know?
• 1:13:47
  And just trying to build those pieces of understanding that, you know. And then if they ask questions, I'll go, "Would you like to know why it was so hot?" You know? Yeah. Or in, in December- Yeah...
• 1:13:57
  or, or whatever it might be. And again, you know, you don't,
• 1:14:00
  we do actually try to protect their childhood as much as we can, but we are also very invested in them understanding, again, like how everyone is affected, but also active voice, like being affected and- Mm-hmm...
• 1:14:12
  their, their role and their place in trying to undo that. Do they hate my five-minute showers for them with, with a vengeance? Of course. And they're like, "We're not gonna run out of water."
• 1:14:22
  I was like, "No, of course not. But why, why should you get to do these and, and nobody else does?" Mm-hmm. There are kids in town getting their water shut off 'cause their parents work two jobs the same hours- Yeah...
• 1:14:31
  that mom and I do, and it doesn't mean anything. So I don't know. Is it the right way to do it? I don't know. But I always come back to relationships.
• 1:14:38
  I find it's helpful, and you can define it in a lot of different ways, so. That's beautiful. I don't know, but thank you. But I try. And Claire, I know you, like when you guys had ice all over Chicago, it was similar.
• 1:14:49
  You know, you were like, "My kids aren't getting taken," but it was literally down the block from you, you know? Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, that was frightening for sure.
• 1:14:58
  And but also heartening that when we walked over to see what was going on, so many people I knew were th- there in the same way, and just the outrage that we shared.
• 1:15:06
  But I was felt good about where we lived, that we could, you know- Yeah... take action like that, so. Of course, you don't wanna have to, but you're glad that that's how everyone showed up when they had to. Yeah.
• 1:15:15
  I have an idea for you, Caitlin- Go... that you can absolutely ignore.
• 1:15:18
  I've been doing some interviews lately with people who have newsletters, who do spinoff newsletters just for fun, and your Substack is called Oh Good. Yeah.
• 1:15:25
  And so if you ever want a salty, you know, spinoff, I think you should just call it Oh God. So that's my idea for you. Hmm. Well, I feel Oh Good can be ambiguous. Oh Good. I often find myself, "Oh good, great." Yeah.
• 1:15:40
  Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's how I feel about the beach party after school tomorrow that just crept up on us. Oh good. Oh good.
• 1:15:46
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• 1:16:04
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• 1:16:09
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• 1:16:24
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• 1:16:36
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