Latest / Turning Grief into Growth: The Journey of Transformation / Episode #45-Andy Miller

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Episode #45-Andy Miller · Turning Grief into Growth: The Journey of Transformation

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to this episode of Turn Grief into Growth: The Journey of Transformation.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: This is a podcast that's hosted by Greg Jacobs and Don Lipstein.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Well, good morning, Don.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: I tell you, the date has finally come of the fulfillment of my jealousy of you.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: You're up in Maine at a camp getting ready to conduct a weekend retreat with a bunch of men who are suicide survivors.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm just jealous.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm jealous that uh you're one holding this camp with a bunch of men because I know that there's just a lot of camaraderie uh around that.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: And two, I'm jealous that you're up in Maine.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's one of my favorite states uh to be in.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was a little cold yesterday morning you stated up there, but uh I I arrived here on uh let's see, uh Tuesday, Monday I arrived and it was uh cold, but Tuesday uh the wind was just blowing like crazy and it was freezing.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm from South Carolina.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know that this uh I I didn't I wasn't I mean I am prepared what uh clothes wise, but still it was it was bitter cold.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: And it took me a little while to figure out the heat in this place, but uh things are are good now.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: So and I think they recommend feeding the bears up there too, uh right outside the door.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: So just absolutely yeah, remember that.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I uh I took a walk yesterday um around the pond, it's called Loon Pond, and uh it's a beautiful, just beautiful area, but you know, I agree with you.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: Maine is one of the most beautiful states in our country.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's Stephen King's home state, and uh been by his house a couple times up there.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I will just say this for our listeners, if you have never heard the sound of a loon at night with your windows open while you're sleeping, it is like Stephen King-esque.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: It is just the eeriest, wildest sound uh that they make.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: There's nothing like it, but uh it's pretty cool.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: Well, without further ado, Don, we have a special guest on, Andy Miller, uh, today.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna go ahead and turn it over to you, Don, to go ahead and introduce Andy to us.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, it gives me great pleasure uh to have Andy on.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, he's a family man, uh married to Kathy Cooper Miller for uh soon to be 44 years, uh, which I find to be amazing.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: And he has three children, uh, and I'm gonna let him talk about them and his three grandchildren.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but I'm also gonna let him talk about um his business, uh, which I think you know uh it he's talked to me a lot about it.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh he works, uh he he uh is actually leads the uh Frameworks, which is an executive search and recruiting firm.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: Uh he's been doing that since 1991.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um and we've had many discussions around that, and it's just I love how he manages his people.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think that speaks volumes to the kind of person that Andy is.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um and he's also gonna talk about uh his greatest challenge in life has been the the loss of his son Drew.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'll let him share that story.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um but uh he he mentioned to me too that, and I remember having a conversation with him early on when we first met, he was uh part of my coping after suicide uh support group.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: He was um in the the very first group that I did uh for coping after suicide.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'd done other groups, but um but I hadn't done any for coping after suicide.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: And Andy was there uh with about five, five or six other dads.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um and uh he we talked about this book by Iris Bolton, it's uh called My Son, My Son, and uh he read it.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um and one of the things that she says in there that is that uh you'll find a gift in this loss.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, initially when we read something like that early on in our grief, it's really hard to imagine that there could be any gifts that come from this grief.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think Andy's going to be talking about uh that a little bit as well.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um but more than anything, uh Andy and I connected.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I mean, yeah, we connected on the fact that we both lost our sons to suicide, but we are Philadelphia fans through and through, and Philadelphia Eagles fans.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh his son Drew and my son Josh were big fans, and and uh and so are so are we, lifelong fans, and he's also a Phillies fan.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I find this so hard to believe because I have played baseball, you know, later in my later years, and it's not as easy as it was when I was a kid.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um he's still playing at 71 years old.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's impressive.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it is impressive.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: So anyway, um welcome, Andy.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: I uh uh I'm truly grateful we we got you on here.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, thank you, Don.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: I appreciate it.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_02: That's uh um you know, I'm happy to be here, right?
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: I've listened to a number of your podcasts, and I'll say this that uh, you know, after 9-11 this country came together, right?
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: I mean it was a horrific event.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, we just had the twenty fifth anniversary, and the people that rallied and in hospitals and you know, firefighters and policemen, they're heroes.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: And you guys may not think so, but the two of you are heroes, right?
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_02: I think to go out there and serve people in who have had a tragic loss and was uh I mean I'm sure if you all both of you think back to in the beginning, you you don't know what you don't know, and you're just flailing around, and people need resources and help.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, the two of you so lots of respect and honor to both of you for what you do.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: Appreciate it.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: There was definitely a time where, like you said earlier on, you don't know what you don't know, that I would say Don and I probably wouldn't have even had this a blip on the radar, but it just so happened that it that blip came together at the same time last year, and uh it just uh synergistically worked in.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: So we're thankful we have the opportunity to do it.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: Andy, tell us a little bit about your journey, especially just kind of starting off.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, obviously we want to hear about um where your grief journey started, but just tell us a little bit about yourself.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's interesting.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_02: I was you know thinking about listen, I'm life deals you a certain set of cards and you you you deal with it.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: I, you know, was the youngest of three, and my mom was the hardest working.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_02: I got my work ethic from my mom.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_02: My parents split up when I was nine, and um, you know, you don't know what you don't know, but my and my mom was very bitter and angry with my dad.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_02: And so in fact, I was estrained from my dad from the time I was nine to about twenty-two.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_02: I saw him here and there, but and so you know, the teenage years were very tumultuous, right?
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I I had no direction, and I guess just the way my life was, I kind of had a a lot of freedom and no direction, which is probably not a good uh recipe for a 15 or 16 year old.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_02: But uh no, I I it's you know, I think I wrote to Don.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I guess I was always been a seeker.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I I actually took a year off.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't want to go right to college because I had no idea what I wanted to do.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_02: Then I and that helped me go in search of something.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: I went to Delaware County Community College, it's a community college in the suburb of Philadelphia, and that was a great experience.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: And then I went on uh to Springfield College and then got a master's in counseling from Temple.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: I spent three years in social services, but and the point I guess psychology served a need because I guess I was just trying to figure out, you know, all these feelings and who I am and what is life about, right?
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_02: And so it helped me, you know, in a lot of ways, you know, to study psychology and I thought I'd be a psychologist, and you know, I I loved doing that, and I still think getting a master's degree in counseling has served me in my profession and in my life, just in terms of empathy and caring, right?
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_02: And so uh, but then it probably, you know, I can't think of a I transitioned into business because I could barely make a living, uh, you know, just doing social work.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_02: I I could barely pay my bills.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_02: And so uh I went into sales and spent nine years in the phone business and then ultimately opened up my recruiting business.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_02: And it it's the perfect business because it's a uh I it allows me to you know satisfy my competitive juices and my caring, my people skills.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_02: I think if I would summarize who I am, I think those traits stand out.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's interesting to me that uh you studied psychology and and you named your um your business brain works, uh and it makes you know a lot of sense uh when you're doing the the work that you're doing as far as recruiting um professionals and and I think it's uh amazing.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: And and you and I have had so many talks about how you treat your people that work there, and it's it's it sounds to me like it's um everyone's on equal terms.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: There's not you don't feel like you know you're um you're the boss.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you don't you you treat them with the same respect that they probably give to you.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um is that accurate?
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I you we do a lot of hiring.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_02: We've grown, I took two partners on the end of 2020.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: We infused some capital, we've grown from seven to fifty-five people, and we're still growing and we're hiring a lot.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the things I say, the thing one of the things I'm most proud of is the culture that I've built is a culture of caring and sharing, right?
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_02: And though I just was in a meeting, we've named these vice presidents and people, you know, I I'm always looking for ways to have people grow in life, right?
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_02: And so professionally and personally, and uh you know, so that's what I'm most proud of that they have tremendous professionals in what they do, but they also are willing to give of themselves.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: I've been around people in life and business, it's all me, me, me, me, me.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_02: And you know what?
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_02: The older I get, I just I don't I don't want to be around people like that.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_02: Life's short and life has challenges, and and so you know, surround yourself with the people that you want to be with, people that are winners, but people that you know care and you know it's not all about them.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody has self-interest, that's human nature, but that they're willing to extend themselves and care about others in ways and give of themselves.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's the uh high value for me.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: So can you share?
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: Can you share about Drew?
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was gonna say so.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: Basically, you're going along, you're businessman, everything is is running smoothly.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just putting words in your mouth.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: And then November 29th, 2021 happens.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: Talk to us about that.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: What did that do?
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: Because Don, when he's introducing you, you said that was like the hardest you know thing that you've had to go through.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: All three of us have lost sons, so we're all dads on here who have lost children.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we get it.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: But for our listeners, just tell us a little bit about that.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it it's it's your worst nightmare.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you you raise children and you know, they have a car accident.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: Uh of course, Greg, I mean, you know, the offender bender or something happens and they, you know, uh, I don't know, a boyfriend or girlfriend breaks up with them.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you you you manage your kids through um and but in your wildest dreams, you don't think you're gonna lose, you know.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_02: When I was in my 20s, I went to a therapist because Kat and I were getting married, and you know, I talked about I was real scared.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: I I had no role model what a marriage looked like.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_02: And and they did a little history.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_02: My grandmother lost two children and a husband, and he, you know, it upsets the therapist said to me, it always stuck, it upsets the natural order in life, right?
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_02: We we know our we're gonna bury our parents and our children or bury us.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_02: That's the way life is supposed to be.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_02: So when you lose a child, I mean, it's it's the worst thing in life.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_02: I I just can't imagine anything.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_02: And so your world is turned upside down.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I cried every morning.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_02: I got up and you know, just it was I don't even know the first goddamn year of just surviving, you know.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_02: It it literally, your your body's in shock.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_02: I listen, I work hard, I've got a strong work.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_02: I took naps regularly because I was, I mean, my body was just messed up, right?
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_02: Physically and emotionally and everything.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_02: And so um, you know, I've sat in a lot of circles, even I think before I met Don, which has been a godsend, those those groups.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_02: I went to a church in in local, I'm in north central Jersey in a town called Madison, New Jersey, and they were just okay, those groups.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but you listen to a lot of stories, and every story is a little different.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: You know, one this one had drug and alcohol problems, or this one had depression, or you know, again, everybody is journey, but there were no signs with Drew.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, like Drew was unhappy at his work, and we were talking about it, but you know, listen, my partner gave him a depression inventory test and he said he's got the situational depression, he's upset, you know, over, but again, why and I've asked so many questions as we all I'm sure do did that.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like uh one of the there's a family that he's very close with named the Aranzios, and and I talked to him the Wednesday night before he passed.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_02: It was like he was over there Wednesday before Thanksgiving.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_02: He said he was Drew, he was himself.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: That's what this man and he was very close with this family.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_02: So um, you know, it's how old was Drew when he passed?
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_02: Drew was 25 years old when he passed.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I you know, one of the best things that I ever heard in one of the groups is this wise man named Don Lipstein said to me, he said, if you if you if you had answers to the questions you asked, what would you do with it?
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I thought, and listen, we all ask those questions, and I can't say I don't ever ask it again, but uh it helped me not ruminate and ask the question a hundred times a day, you know, what did I miss?
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_02: What was wrong?
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_02: What you know, it just because like okay, so here's the two questions from my situation, you know, there were no signs.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_02: So was Drew something wrong for six months and I missed it, or did something snap that day, right?
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_02: Those are the two questions.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: And the Don's question if I miss something and it he was been hurting for six months, I'm the worst father in the world.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_02: What am I gonna beat myself up on?
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_02: That's tough enough.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we've all gone through the hardest thing you could ever.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to beat myself up anymore.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_02: I have I think we all have probably a huge inner critic, and I've got a big one, and I've done a lot of personal growth work.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to beat myself up anymore.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I just don't.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: I would like the number of this uh wise man, Don Lipstein, that you're talking about.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, maybe I can get in contact with him.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, a wise man, Andy McDonald, a friend of mine, uh, he told me um, where everybody's like saying, Don't don't do that to yourself, you can't do that.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, he took the opposite approach, which is the correct approach, in my opinion.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, hey, keep asking the questions, but just know you're not going to get the answers to them.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think for me, it was kind of the definition of insanity if I keep beating my head against the wall.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, I could definitely, definitely relate with that.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: It just helped me put it down enough that I wasn't torturing myself.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: I was going through hard enough stuff and crying every day.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: And like I said, to you know, like work was a respite.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_02: I like to work, I still love to work, but you know, then you know, then the end of your day, you're like, you're back, my son's not here, you know, he's never coming back, right?
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's just it's still like I think I share with Don we did a retreat with our group up in Norwalk in August, and it you know, I don't think about it as much, five years out.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_02: I still like this morning, you know, coming driving back from uh the chiropractor I go to, it's like it takes my breath away still.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's just still like uh it's almost there's a part of me that probably will never accept it.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like I know I do in ways, but like, are you kidding me?
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_02: This kid had the world by the balls.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: He he saved$300,000 in two and a half years of work.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_02: He had a girl girlfriend that they were in love, who were gonna get married.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I went to a uh a psychic.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_02: I I was whacked, I'd do anything for answers.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_02: And he he said that they're gonna they he said this was an accident.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_02: He tried to pull himself back, like they were gonna marry and have two kids.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_02: That's what the psychic said.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, it just he it this kid had such a bright future, it's a tragedy.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh all of them died way too young and their futures were bright.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you know, here we are, the three of us, uh, figuring out life and how to do life without them.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um have you found any tools that uh have been helpful to you to um you know get you through these uh the the five years, almost five years that you've been at this.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_02: Interesting that you referenced my son, my son.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_02: I was gonna talk about that in that line of you know, but one of the best tools I I you know I'm not a big reader, but I read more than I normally do.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_02: But I read Megan Devine wrote a book called It's Okay That You're Not Okay, and I would recommend anybody going through grief.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's uh one of the best books because like you don't know what you don't know, and I think it helps normalize like people say, like I you talked about in baseball.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: I had a coach, you know, just call me up once and ask me to play a game, and he goes, Have you gotten over it yet?
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_02: We were about I was about six months into Drew's passing.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, and the old Andy would have bit his head off, like really just uh like you out of your effing, you don't right.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: But I just said Tom, it's not something you get over with, it's something you learn to deal with.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_02: But Megan talks about you know that again uh you're six months a year, there's nothing, you know, that's normal, if you will, right?
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_02: I think it helps pe in that book, it helps normalize what you're going through.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_02: And then probably one of the best messages that I think that she gives is you have to find your communities, you have to find people and circles of people that can hold your grief because most people can't.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_02: We're not taught how to do that in this country, right?
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_02: It's we and listen, let's face it, it's human.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_02: Uh you got a loved one that had a loss, you want them to feel better, right?
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_02: And so you go, oh come on, Johnny, come on, let's go, you know, go play ball, let's go out on a vacation.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_02: We think whatever, something's gonna help them.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's you have to go through the process, right?
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, Andy, there was something you said earlier on, especially whenever you said that um in this country, we we do a horrible job in this country, one of just talking about grief, addressing it, education on it.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you had said so earlier on, basically, I'm gonna put words in your mouth, but this is what you're emphasizing is physically you wore your grief.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: And that is hard for people to understand.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: I I read the book by Dr.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: Alan Woofeld, uh, I'm not crazy, I'm grieving.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it talks about how you really feel crazy and insane, what is going on?
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: You talked about this brain fog the whole first year that you had.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: But then physically, like I was going to my chiropractor, I was going to my doctor, I was trying to figure out what is wrong with me.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: Am I, am I, you know, have some kind of a disease?
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: Am I ill?
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, because you do wear it.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and it can take years off your life if you allow it, if you don't fight.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Back, but uh how what was that like for you physically wearing your grief?
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: Well, like I said, I've done a lot of personal growth work, and you know, even like I don't know if you guys are maybe you are familiar with EMDR is a is a therapeutic modality that's used in trauma, treating trauma.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I guess if I look at you know, like we carry trauma and emotions in our body.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: We just do like something, you know.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_02: If you survived the Oklahoma City bombing, you're carrying trauma, whether you know it or not.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_02: And it's in your body, right?
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_02: And so the sooner you understand that you can take steps, whether it's a chiropractor or I don't know, massage or right here, something, right?
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm I I'm a big workout, you know, person.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_02: So I I mean, I just took care of my body.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I would never have given myself permission, you know, 10-15 years ago to take naps in the middle of the day.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: Work was too important, and I gotta achieve, right?
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: We're all the male protocol of achievement, and I'm achievement driven, but I I gave myself permission, my body needed it, and I was, you know, I don't know who said it, but I repeated it a lot in our groups.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_02: Be kind to yourself, right?
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_02: And that was a mantra that I learned early, and I did, right?
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_02: Because life's tough enough.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_02: This is the toughest thing you're gonna go through.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_02: Do whatever it takes to be kind to yourself.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, I'm I'm grateful you mentioned your body and how you uh somehow found the the uh the way to take care of it.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: I did not.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I kind of let everything, you know, my health and everything go um the first several years.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it wasn't until probably five years ago that I just started to say, you know, I I do need to do a better job of of taking care of me and this body because I'm getting older and it's just gonna get harder and harder to maintain that.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um but uh but grief will do some crazy things and and you know, you I feel like you guys are talking about wearing it.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: I I call carrying it.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it's like you know, this weight that you're carrying, right?
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and um and as we do the work, as time goes on, uh that weight either gets lighter or we get stronger, one or the other.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but uh it does change.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I think all of us are at that place where you know we recognize that you know our grief now is very different than it was early on.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, and I'm wondering if either of you, since you're both newer than I am at this, if either of you can talk to that.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: Well, so it's funny you mentioned that, and and I definitely want Andy to speak to this, but um, and I don't say this for gratitude, but um I I was 330 pounds, I'm six foot seven, and August 5th, I went to my doctor two months ago, and he said, Look, your A1C is six, your glucose is you know high, you're you know, pre-diabetic.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, man, I'm putting all this work in on my grief journey, and I just have not been putting my work in on self-discipline when it came to eating because I just didn't give a flip.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: So for those of our listeners that just don't give a flip, that are in the midst of their grief journey, uh, there is hope of turning that around.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: I've lost 29 pounds in the last two months from just stopping eating sugar and refined carbs and refined foods.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you know, I feel like if you go back to our first podcast that we did, Don, my face is all puffy.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: And that's that was what really gave me inspiration was looking at my face every Thursday on this camera and realizing, man, I am wearing my grief and carrying it in my weight and what I'm doing with eating habits and things.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I I'm trying to be more well-rounded with my work that I'm putting in on my grief journey.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and that comes from nutrition.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: It comes from a will to live again, if that makes sense.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: So, Andy, do you have any comments on that?
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think, you know, I would say that there's things unconsciously that I think we all carry, right?
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_02: I listen, I've struggled with, I mean, I'm pretty fit, I'm healthy, but I go up and down 20, 25 pounds, and my wife just said to me, you know we got a couple weddings coming up.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_02: You better, you know, get in shape a little bit.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I so I've just the last couple days, week I've started paying better attention.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_02: It's easy to let yourself go, I would say.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_02: But again, it it I don't think we do self-love really well either, right?
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_02: I talked, I mean, I had you know, for whatever the reasons, I've done this, I've been in counseling and therapy, I've been in uh I've been was very involved in a personal growth group called the Mankind Project.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and uh we really take a look at you know your things that and so the the all these things have helped me look within and you know, because my inner critic was so huge and I just needed to work on it and you know love myself more, right?
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: And then self-care is crucial.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: I I do this a lot with my employees now, uh affirmations, find something good for you in yourself because we could do four things great and one thing we could have a typo in an email and you'll ruminate over the typo, right?
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_02: But uh there's one thing I don't want to lose track of that because I've and both of you have referenced in with your guests and all talk about the work, right?
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_02: And uh they use that term in grief, and uh for me I just wanted what does that mean that doing the work means feel your feelings, don't bury your grief, right?
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's if you don't feel it, you know, you got a bigger problem, right?
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, this is the most for me and I I judge for both of you the most tragic thing that'll ever happen in your life.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_02: And so you the work means work through your grief, feel it, be with it, carry it, talk about it, get support and find people who've gone through it that can help you understand what you're going through two months out, six months, twelve months, you know, twenty-five months, etc.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_02: Because it's a process of you know, otherwise I don't know.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: I guess thank you, because that's a great definition.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and you know what you're saying is so true.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: It if you put it's very easy to push your grief down, right?
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's much harder to allow your emotions to come out and to feel it.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's the hard part, and that is that's the work, just like you said.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um so uh you know, and I think about um my first few months.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I mean, I I was letting emotions out, but I was also pushing some of them down.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and that, you know, can happen.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I thought I was doing really good good work, but I I recognize looking back now that you know I I did a lot of pushing down stuff that scared me, stuff that I didn't want to face.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um my uh 93-year-old mother-in-law lives with me, and she was very, very, very true.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_02: Called her five days a week, every day on his way to work, and she was didn't get out of bed.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_02: Literally, and we went to a grief therapist, my wife and I, and the wife said the uh therapist said uh Kathy, whatever your mother needs, as long as she's not abusing like drugs and alcohol or abusing her body, let her have it.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_02: Like we don't know what you know, everybody differently.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_02: And so, Don, the fact you had to push it down, that's what you needed to do.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_02: You dealt with the feelings the best you could at that moment.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_02: I I literally, you know, you talked about Iris Bolton.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, one of the the lesson, I am a kinder, gentler soul.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_02: I really believe people are doing the best they can where I used to be so self-critical of others, right?
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_02: Critical, self-critical, yes, and but uh critical of others.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I just I accept people where they're at.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because I I mean I think it's a better way to live.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, on this podcast, we've talked about it's okay to hit the pause button on your grief uh from time to time.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's it's not good to do it indefinitely.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it'll catch up to you.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it's you know, you make a point there, Andy, that there is no right wrong unless you are self-harming yourself or harming others, that it's just different for every single person.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: And Don, um, I I was really digging in on my compassionate friends meeting on Tuesday night.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we were kind of reviewing an article uh from Dr.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: Alan Woodfeld.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: I know I already mentioned him, but uh the five misconceptions he has in an article out there of grief.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: And one of them, of course, it kind of addresses the cubola Ross uh five stages of grief and how it's never meant to be uh linear and a lot of people don't even hit all those stages.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: And you might repeat back to that, you know, one of those stages 10, 20, 100 times, whatever.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but um the other aspect was really talking about mourning versus grief.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: And mourning is that outward, extroverted expression of your emotions versus grief is really almost kind of your lifelong journey and it's private.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think the misnomer, and you know, Andy, when you said here in America we don't do a really good job, is thinking that at the very beginning you're gonna have a mourning phase and it might be six months to a year, and then you go on to your grief journey, you graduate from the morning.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not true.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: Your mourning is gonna be way more intensified at the very beginning, but then you might become more private, but then you're gonna have those outward expressions of emotions all along the way, where five, 10, 15, 20 plus years out, you're still gonna have times of mourning.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and that's okay, and not to suppress those and let your emotions take you where they may, but not destroy you.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I I want to say something about Elizabeth Kubler-Ross and the five stages of grief, because you know, that book was initially written for the five stages of dying.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: Death and dying.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, but she she she wanted people to embrace the fact that you know they were they were dying.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: So here's what you're gonna be going through.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it was adapted and and adopted to to use in grief.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: And anyone that goes through grief recognizes that grief is not linear whatsoever.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: There's no, it's all over the place.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so and in her defense, she came back in the 80s with David Kessler and rewrote that, you know, talking about how it wasn't linear.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: So, Andy, uh you've given us lots of uh really powerful information and given our listeners um some a lot of things to think about.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: Just wondering if there's one pearl of wisdom that you would like to leave them with.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I think I said earlier, and uh you know, I talked about you know Megan Devine, but I I think the journey will get easier if you seek like souls, right?
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_02: People who are going through who the hell wants to go through this alone?
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_02: It is tough, it sucks.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_02: Find your communities that can hold your grief that can, you know, help you in the journey that I did on.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so grateful that I found you and you know, um survived, you know, what's uh you know coping after suicide.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: Then it's just and it just really I give you a personal so I I'm one of three.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_02: I've uh uh uh my brother's the oldest and my sister's the middle, and then my brother and I were always very close.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_02: And my sister and I were not close at all.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_02: And when Drew passed, my sister could hold my grief like few others could, and we have gotten so close in the last five years, and sadly she lost her husband six months ago, and I've you know been there as much as I could, because I could I mean, you know, not exactly, but I know what she's going through.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_02: I think you gotta find the people in the communities that can hold you.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_02: I if you do that, you're on a path of healing that will be helpful, uh, in my opinion.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_02: So that's my advice.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: Great advice.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, thank you.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: We talk all the time on here about find your community.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, don't do it alone.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: You're not alone, you shouldn't be alone.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there's plenty of resources out there.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna leave us with this, and Don, I know this shocks you because I never have the last word uh on this podcast.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but you had mentioned EMDR, and I'm just speaking out loud.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: I want to kind of let's pursue that, Don.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: See if we can get a an expert on that has actually done EMDR.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: Talk a little more about I have a uh therapist, a doctor that uh does does EMDR.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: And uh we'll get them on.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I will get them.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: So there's there's this uh there's this new terminology out there.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's called EMDR inspired bilateral stimulation.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you guys have ever heard of this, but it's dealing with audio, and it's where it goes back and forth on the audio like songs.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I've I've started listening to some of this, and man, it will just like reset you.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to explore it a little more.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: The Calm app is really uh drilling down on this um and uh some others.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but anyway, just speaking out loud, we're we'll we'll look into that a little more in the future.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Andy, thank you so much uh for sharing your story.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: We we do not take any of our guests lightly.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: We just know that you are sharing a very intimate uh piece of your life with the world, and uh we we uh cherish that and appreciate that.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: Very great, very grateful, grateful to you.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_02: Listen, I've I listen, this was uh totally enjoyable.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_02: I was you know transparently a little nervous, like I, you know, I don't get nervous that much these days, but I thought, but in a good way, right?
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_02: Anticipate I wanted this to be impactful, and yeah I hopefully it has been.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_02: Hopefully, your listeners have taken away some pearls of wisdom and absolutely uh because you guys, I don't think uh I I hope you hear it.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_02: The two of you are heroes for the work you're doing in grief, helping people through grief, because the world needs more of people like both of you who are committed to helping others like that.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we humbly accept that.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: I can definitely say that Don and I do not feel that way, and uh, but that's that's refreshing uh to hear from you.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: And just so you don't feel alone, I also feel very nervous and intimidated every time I talk to Don uh as well.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: So all right, folks.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_01: Please please uh share this with your your network, you know, the people that absolutely because uh it's it's good.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: This is this was a great episode.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Andy.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: Truly appreciate it.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: Really enjoyed it.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time, folks.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: We hope turning grief into growth spoke to your heart and becomes a part of your own journey of healing and transformation.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: If you know someone who could use a little hope, please share this episode with them.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: And don't forget to follow, like, or subscribe on your favorite platform so you don't miss what's coming next.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: Don and I can't wait to share more conversations to help you keep turning your grief into growth.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time.