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Survivor Winner Ethan Zohn on His Cancer Battle & the Drug That Saved His Life · Get Real with Jim Weiss

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Jim, you talked to the Survivor guy.
• 0:02
  Speaker 2: How cool is that?
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: One of the OGs, right? He had that nice OG
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: t-shirt on that he sells on his site. Well, it
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: was cool because I just, you know, I was involved
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: with the Dempsey Challenge, as you know, and he also
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: has been involved and written in that and, you know,
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: has a good relationship with Patrick Dempsey, who we've all
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: just heard from. So really great to get another perspective
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: from a Survivor. other type of cancer that's somewhat rare,
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: you know, the CD20, Hodgkin's lymphoma. So all of it
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: was really rich and we had so many dots to
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: connect and people in common and experience. I think it
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: was really, really cool. Good guy.
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: He's awesome. One thing I noticed in this episode, which
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: I loved is, and we don't always connect the dots here,
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: is you worked on a couple of drugs that he took,
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: drugs that changed his diagnosis.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: Because I've been around in this business so long, that
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: there probably hasn't been a drug that someone we're going
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: to talk to hasn't been on. It's everything from the
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: first targeted therapies like Herceptin, which is ubiquitous pretty much
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: in HER2 positive breast cancer. I was involved in multiple
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: chemotherapy launches, including Taxotere, which is the drug, one of
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: the drugs you take with Herceptin even today. There's another
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: drug called Taxol, but I didn't launch that. I launched Taxotere,
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: which was a close competitor. We've got Keytruda, which is
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: the first big Not the first, Opdivo, I worked on
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: that too. So the two checkpoint inhibitors in the immunotherapy world,
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: which is very interesting. I haven't worked directly on the
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: KRAS drugs, but I have worked on the cancer vaccine concept.
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: And one of the very first immunotherapies, Provenge, which led
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: the way, in cell immunotherapy that we see today. One
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: of the first CAR-Ts coming out of Juno that was
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: bought by Bristol-Myers Squibb. Probably any and all of the
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: early cancer detection systems like GRAIL and genomic health and
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: the recurrence, which is a recurrence score that's used in
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: breast cancer, again, ubiquitously. Like I said, I launched the
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: first ELISA test to detect HIV back in the day
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: when I was a kid. We didn't really know much
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: about it or understand it all that well. So no,
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: I've been fortunate to work across the whole landscape. But
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: in this particular case of lymphoma, Rituxim was the drug.
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: It didn't actually work for him the first time. He
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: had a couple of transplants that got him through it
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: until the next drug called Epsetris came along and was
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: a big game changer for him and so many other
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: CD20 drugs. positive patients. And I helped in the early
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: years of Seattle Genetics and that drug launched that product.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: So yeah, there's so many. Making the world a healthier place, truly.
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: That's our goal. You know, I mean, that's why I
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: started Real Chemistry and why I continue to stay involved
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: today and do the podcast, which is what we're here
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: to do. If we can just help one person connect
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: with the right therapy at the right time, we've done good. Exactly.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: So the Quickly, can you give us a couple reasons
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: why we should listen to this episode today?
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: Well, I think the biggest reason to listen to it
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: is it's always good to hear from somebody who had
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: to cope with the diagnosis and then the treatment and
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: listen to all the unexpected things that come up. And
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: his big message is take help, get help. You're going
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: to need help. You can't do this alone. That's what
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: a survivor would say, you know, a contestant, even though
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: you were trying to win alone, his point about it
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: was that he had to build community among the other
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: people to win it. And I think it's something people miss.
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: They always think, what do I have to do to
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: do this for myself? And when you're doing it for
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: the community and with the community, your chances of survival
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: and winning are higher. Strength in numbers, strength in team.
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: Love and community keeps us alive.
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: That's it. All right. That's what we need. All right.
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: Thanks, Jim. See you on the other side.
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: Everybody tune in.
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: Tune in.
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: It's such a good thing, right? To be around the
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: people who've been through this shit. It is.
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely right.
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: In ways that other people really can't get. I mean,
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: I'm excited to talk to you about that today. Everyone
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: gets hit by the bouncing ball, I say. And yours
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: was cancer at 30 fucking five, which seems to be
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: now a growing trend, right? That we're seeing it more
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: and more. having been at Survivor prepare you for things
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: like that or did it? I don't know. I don't
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: know if you're ever ready for that. Right.
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, Survivor is a game for a million
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: dollars and cancer is a game for your life. However,
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: I've been asked this question and I've had time to
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: think about it because there are some aspects of the
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: game of Survivor that can lend itself well to surviving cancer.
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: One is when you're out there, you are stripped of everything.
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: that you're comfortable with. No friends, no family, no ATM,
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: no Wi-Fi, nothing. It's just you. And then you take
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: away food and water and you're tired and you're hungry.
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: It's who is left is at the core. And so
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: Survivor kind of gave me that opportunity to find who
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: I was on the inside when there's nothing else around.
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: And then Cancer gave me that opportunity again when I
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: was 35 years old. And Survivor is a game where
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: you push yourself to the absolute limit, right? It touches
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: on your body, mind and spirit and same with Cancer.
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: So I was able to push myself to the limit
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: and even more on Survivor. And then when cancer came along,
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: I knew how my body would react. And I almost
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: tested my body and I was able to push myself
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: a little bit more because I knew how far the
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: human spirit could go because of my time on Survivor. So,
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: and then the last part about that is my entire
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: strategy to win Survivor was to be a member of
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: the community. I wanted to be crucial to everyone else's survival.
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: So without me, they'd struggle even more. And I learned
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: that growing up in the Jewish community. I lost my
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: father to cancer. And then I learned that again when
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: I was going through cancer, because it's the community that
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: kind of reinforced my values when a time I felt
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: completely alone and helped me get through the most darkest
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: moments of my life.
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: Right. So we share that because I was student council
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: president back in the day, one of few Jews in
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: a small town, getting pennies thrown at them and shit
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: like that. You kind of learn how to do exactly
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: what you're saying. It's like there's strength in numbers. My
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: wife actually said cancer is a gift wrapped in barbed wire.
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: Our team was called the barbed wire babes. Nice. How
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: do you feel about it? I'm sure it was a shock,
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: but were any parts of it a gift?
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I think I appreciate your wife's looking
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: at both sides. It was a gift, but it was
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: wrapped in barbed wire. And like a gift is something
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: you give to someone on purpose for their benefit. So
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: cancer wasn't necessarily that for me. However, I've lived my
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: life these days by making sure to never let a
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: crisis go to waste because it's an opportunity to do
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: some really important things. So like now any challenge that
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: comes my way, I face it head on, I accept it,
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: and then I turn it outward to help those around me.
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: So in that sense of the word, I think it
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: did kind of put me on a path to where
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: using like service over self and the details of my
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: life can help other people. So I think that aspect
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: of the cancer journey was a gift. It kind of
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: validated my experience because I was able to use that
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: horrible time in my life to help other people. And
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: so I could say it was a gift in that sense.
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: She said it woke her up. I mean, you know,
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: obviously she was a bit older when it happened to her,
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: but she didn't have anything happen in her life that
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: was that drastic. All things had come as she had
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: wanted and planned. And we all know that that's a
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: little bit of a delusion. And she was like, wow,
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: life is precious. Life is great, right? Life is a gift.
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: And I think you appreciate it more somehow once you're
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: facing that moment or feel like you're facing it. But
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: let's talk about your dad died of colorectal cancer at 49.
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: You're 52. What's it like to outlive that number?
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well- It feels good, I guess.
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: And are you getting checked regularly? We always talk about
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: it for colorectal cancer, I assume.
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: Definitely. So back to that previous question, like I learned
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: early on in life, I feel because I had lost
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: my dad, I was young, but a little bit about
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: how precious life is and what it was like living
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: without my father. And so in that sense, and then
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: when I was diagnosed, you are laser focused and we
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: face our own mortality earlier than anyone else. I hate
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: that it takes a crisis like this for me or
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: for your wife to actually figure it out. I wish
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: we all had the opportunity to realize this without having
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: a health crisis or any crisis in our life gone.
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: But like I said, I learned this a little earlier
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: in life than the average teenager, the value of the
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: human experience. But losing my dad was tough. And like
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: I just mentioned, I pretty much went to Minion every
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: day after my dad died and this community reached out
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: and they embraced me, my mom and my brothers. And
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: outliving my dad was always a thing in our family.
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: When something like that happens early on, my only connection
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: to cancer was through my dad. So to me, cancer
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: equal death.
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: Because you have brothers, right?
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I got two older brothers. So we're always sarcastically joking, like,
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: who's going to outlive dad? Are you going to make it?
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: Are we going to make it? So finally, when we
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: got there, it was a big deal. But it just
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: goes to show you, science wasn't able to save my
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: dad in 1989. But science and the community was able
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: to save me. Now we have early screening. We have
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: at-home testing kits. Cologuard. We have CancerGuard. We have all
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: these things, these modern developments in cancer that can help
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: people get diagnosed earlier. So I am keeping tabs on myself.
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: I get checked earlier. I just took the CancerGuard test.
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: I just took the Cologuard test. So I'm all of it.
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: But this cancer research is huge. And a lot of
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: progress has been made over the past 25 years since
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: my dad passed away. But there's still more work to
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: be done.
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: Well, good. Well, I'm glad you mentioned the early detection.
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: Like that is so critical, right?
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: Game changer.
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: But based on your symptoms, doctors didn't suspect cancer. This
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: is a common thing that we hear all the time.
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: It certainly was. What I was told by a young
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: doctor after my wife was now on death's door with
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: a bowel obstruction, we were barely able to save her
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: in time to get chemo and keep her around longer,
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: which we did. But ultimately, how did you get this diagnosed?
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: I was a 35-year-old guy on top of the world
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: training for the New York City Marathon. And I just
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: had some itchy skin. I'm not talking like just regular itch,
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: like debilitatingly itchy. Like when you get a bug bite
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: and you scratch it, You can satiate it. It's like, ah, okay,
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: I got itched. This was like a permanent eating itch
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: from the inside out with no rash. And you can
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: never satiate that itch. And it went on forever. Four, five,
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: six months. Doctors, every pill, cream, lotion known to man.
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: And it wasn't until a swollen lymph node popped out
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: of my neck. And they took an x-ray and found
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: a six centimeter by 12 centimeter mass in my chest.
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: And I was diagnosed with a rare form of blood
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: cancer called CD20 positive Hodgkin's lymphoma. I never heard of
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: it either at the time. Don't worry. And that's kind
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: of how I was diagnosed. But it was torturous. So
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: many doctors telling me that, oh, you know, don't worry
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: about it. Take some prednisone, whatever. It got to a
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: point where, like, I thought I was going crazy. The
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: doctors thought I was going crazy. And it was just
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: a mental health issue. But it was lymphoma. So just,
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: you know, permeating itch with no rash. It's lymphoma, everyone.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: Go get checked out. It's not stress or anxiety.
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I'm glad you're mentioning it. God, you
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: couldn't keep track of all the potential things. But the
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: point is, don't ignore it. And now we have, what,
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: Prenuvo and other types of things that you can go for.
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: If the docs aren't giving you satisfaction, you can go
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: check that and maybe find that big lymph node. You
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: would have seen that. You know, you would have seen
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: that and you could have gotten to it sooner, which
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: is important. What can you explain? What's that CD20 positive?
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: Like what? What were the differences versus regular old Hodgkin's lymphoma?
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: Regular old Hodgkin's lymphoma, which I would like to say
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: we're at about, and if you just walk into a
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: hospital with a traditional Hodgkin's lymphoma, there's a 99% cure
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: rate right now. And that's just incredible to even say
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: out loud. But within the lymphoma world, there are multiple
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: different forms of lymphoma. The CD20 marker is normally found
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: on non-Hodgkin's B-cell lymphoma. And so when they find that
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: within a Hodgkin's lymphoma, it's considered rare. One in every
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: five people have a rare form of a lymphoma. I
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: was one of them. It means they just treat it
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: a little bit differently with a combination of kind of
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: non-Hodgkin's lymphoma and lymphoma type medicines.
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: So Rituxan probably is in there, right? Yeah.
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: I had what they called R-CHOP, which is Rituxan. Yes.
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: Right. So I helped launch that drug back in the
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: day at Genentech. Yeah.
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: Holy shit, dude. That's incredible.
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: I have a relationship with it. Well, I was at
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: Genentech in 92, right? So this is when they had
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: just done the deal with Biogen and IDEC. It was
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: IDEC at the time. Then it became Biogen IDEC. Yeah,
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: but the guy who actually invented it, Richard Miller, started
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: a company called Pharmacyclics. He was one of the guys,
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: Ron Levy and him. This is the backstory, right? But
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: these are guys I know out here. Richard's great. And
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: I mean, he's been recognized for that and a couple
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: other drugs that he helped develop. And he's doing another one.
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: Well, it didn't work. So it's all your fault. I
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: just want to say.
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: What?
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: That you're here? I said R-CHOP didn't work. So it's
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: all your fault is what I'm saying.
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: Well, there you go.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: No, I'm just joking around. Because I had to go
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: through R-CHOP, which failed. I went through ICE, which failed.
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: And then I had radiation. And then an autologous stem
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: cell transplant, which... worked for 20 months, then the cancer
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: returned and I had to go through it all again.
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: But as we're talking about drugs and new drugs, like
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: I was on an experimental new drug, a clinical trial.
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: I got clearance to be able to do it before
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: it was passed by the FDA at the time is
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: called SGN 35 by Seattle genetics.
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: And now it's Seattle genetics. So believe it or not,
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: I helped work on that drug. So Clay Segal, who
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: was the founder of that company is a guy I
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: know pretty well too.
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: I want to hug you right now because That drug
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: saved my life. That is the reason I am alive today.
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: That was their big initial claim to fame, right? And
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: now he's at it again at a company called Immuno.
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: He's trying to come up with new and improved treatments there.
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: So he's still at it. Good.
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: Well, I got to go visit Seattle Genetics and I
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: met the dude that created this smart targeted therapy in
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: a lab. Clinical trials for a cancer patient is equal
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: parts fear and equal parts excitement. Fear because this may
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: not work and I die. And excitement because if this
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: does work, experiment on me. Let me pave the way
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: for all the patients that come after me. And so
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: for me, to someone to make the leap to say
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: yes to a clinical trial, there's always a risk there.
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: And so it was a fearful moment, but an exciting moment.
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: Then I got to go to Seattle genetics and meet
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: the people behind it and meet clay and meet the scientists.
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: So like this, like amazing scientists in the lab, like
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: researching this exact situation, failed autologous stem cell transplant for
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: a rare form of lymphoma. And there was someone researching that. So,
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: I'm a big fan of cancer research, you know, for
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: all your cancer patients out there, stay alive for as
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: long as you can. Cause you just don't know what's
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: around the corner.
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: And were you hanging out with Peggy Pinkston? She was
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: the communication person who brought us in and knew, you know,
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: so that again, our role was very much communications and
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: getting the word out. And that was at the, at
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: the beginning.
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: And then, you know, now it's being used in first
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: line defense. Well, you go in and you, you are
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: prescribed at Cetrus now, when you first get lymphoma versus
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: having to fail a transplant before you get it?
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: So we worked on it. The woman who was my
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: point on it, Cetrus, from our side, because I think
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: they marketed it with another company at the time, her
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: husband just died of colon cancer at 43. So listening
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: to this, like it's everywhere and it interweaves incredibly. And
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: when I Realized we were going to get to talk.
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: I'm like, it's very meant to be. And I'm sure
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: we're going to figure out other ways to work together
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: to get word out. Because I think really it comes
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: down to early detection and prevention. I think that's the
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: best way to fight any of these things. And while
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: there'll be great new drugs coming and big breakthroughs, nothing
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: ever works for everybody. This is about as curative as
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: you can get in our field. But anyway, you survived
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: all that. You went through that process, a couple transplants.
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: I mean, you kind of just glossed over it. I mean,
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: that's hard shit, isn't it, to do? It's hard shit, yeah.
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: For those who don't know, a stem cell transplant is
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: kind of like a science fiction novel. You will remove
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: all the white blood cells, red blood cells, and platelets
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: from one human, and then you replace that with the
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: red blood cells, white blood cells, and platelets of another
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: human to help you survive. And so you're locked in
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: a hypersteroid bubble for... up to a month, sometimes longer.
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: And so I got my second stem cell transplant from
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: my brother, Lee. And so I've officially changed my name.
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: My name is now Leethan. And I'm no longer my
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: mom's favorite son, which is like the worst part about
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: this whole cancer thing. But yeah, the process is curative,
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: but it's a difficult process, both physically and mentally when
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: you go through one of those transplants.
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: Could you do another one if you had to?
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: If I had to, there are now, they would probably
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: have me use my brother again. It's not recommended. But
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: I think now with where the world is going and
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: there's hyper-customized cancer protocols for people, that's the direction cancer
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: is going, is customized treatment for whatever DNA, whatever type
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: of markers you have in your personal cancer, personalized cancer care.
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: And I'm sure you know more about that than I do.
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: But I think it's going to be like designer- chemotherapy
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: for cancer patients in a good way.
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's designer immunotherapy, cell therapy. Yeah, those are the
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: things coming. What we call cancer vaccines are really immunotherapies.
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: But yes, all those things are more, but I like
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: to prevent the event and not everything can be prevented.
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: How do you cope with a blood cancer that isn't
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: entirely in your control? What do you do to stay
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: one step ahead of it?
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: Well, I definitely leaned into the what I'm going to
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: call alternative therapies. I will never swap out the science
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: for alternative therapies.
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: Do we call it wraparound care?
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: Whole person care?
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: I kind of avoid alternative because the way Audra looked
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: at it was Eastern and Western. There's a lot of
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: ways to look at it, but combining both, it's not
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: like I'm only going to go to a shaman. And
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: I'm only going to do acupuncture. The idea is let's
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: combine the best of both.
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: I 100% agree. And that's the path I took. Science,
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: and then I had the kind of definitely not as
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: science-backed protocols. But yeah, I leaned into all of it.
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: Music therapy, art therapy, visualization. I went to Bali and
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: went on a healing safari. I was meeting past life
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: regression and jumping off cliffs and changing cliffs, changing my diet.
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: I meditate, vision boards, I had a shrink. But the
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: one thing that I feel is one of the most
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: beneficial whole person care is exercise. Exercise oncology is a
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: kind of a new area of study in the cancer world.
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: And there's some incredible research and data coming out of
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: Sloan Kettering right now with a group called Hactive Against
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: Cancer that's actually studying the benefits of exercise while going
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: through cancer. And they're finding that the patients that have
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: a exercise routine pre, during, post-cancer have incredible outcomes, up
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: to 37% better survival rates than those that don't have
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: an exercise plan. And the one aspect of it that
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: they're finding is most beneficial is the group classes. It's
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: the connection. It's the working with other people to overcome
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: a challenge versus just regular strength and cardio. It's those
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: group fitness classes where people are coming together and you're
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: both working out and commiserating about the experience itself.
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: What's your current definition of endurance? You were on Survivor,
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: you played soccer, marathons, TVs. What are we talking about here?
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: What are the bars?
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's definitely changed. My definition of endurance
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: back in the day was like, how far can I
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: go and how long can I stay on my feet
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: is like endurance. And I would sign up for these
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: events super endurance style endeavors, survivor, amazing race, eco challenge, marathons,
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: ultra marathons. I don't know why. I mean, we're Jewish
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: sufferings in our blood. I guess we just love it.
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: But my definition of endurance now is just even Steven, right?
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: Like I'm used to living on extremes and now it's
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: more about like navigating my way to the middle in
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: terms of keeping my body and my mind and my
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: spirit in check, you know? And like growing up as
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: a competitive soccer player, you know, I always realized that
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: after like a good workout or visualization training or yoga,
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: like I was a much better athlete. So I took
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: that same philosophy into my battle with cancer. And I
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: did have a really robust exercise routine pre, during, post,
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: including mental exercises. And this was before this, this was
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: 2009 and 10. It just came to me naturally because
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: I'm a fitness freak. Fitness is how I evaluate my health,
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: I guess you can say. And so I just leaned
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: into this naturally, but I do think it was incredibly
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: helpful and beneficial to surviving cancer. So like the better
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: in shape you are before this happens, the better in
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: shape you will be after. So just maintaining a good
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: level of fitness, sleep, healthy eating for everyone on this
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: planet is good because if that ball bounces your way,
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: like you said, or if you get hit with that
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: cancer diagnosis, it's better to be in a position to
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: not have to catch up.
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: You haven't mentioned it, so I will. Let's talk cannabis.
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: Let's talk cannabis.
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: You went from using medical marijuana, right, to investing in
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: it and becoming a brand ambassador for it. How has
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: using marijuana changed not just your life, but where does
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: that fit in? Because obviously we know it does. Mainly,
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: I think it's associated with treating pain, but talk a
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: little bit about how you got into that.
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: Sure. Well, I never touched the stuff. I was not
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: in high school and college. I mean, maybe I tried
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: it second semester of my senior year to do something
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: crazy before I graduated. Like, don't tell my mom.
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: Where'd you go to school again?
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: Vassar College in upstate New York. Small liberal arts college.
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: It was around and everyone was using it. I just
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: wasn't that guy at that time because I wanted to
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: play soccer. I wanted to be a doctor. I wanted
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: to like, you know, that was my path. But obviously
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: when I got diagnosed with cancer, I knew there were
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: some rumors out there about using cannabis with cancer. But
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: at that time it was illegal. So like picture this,
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: I'm bald with chemo mask gloves. I'm on the street
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: of New York city talking to a drug dealer and
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: he's selling all drugs, not just cannabis, selling like Coke
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: and ecstasy and Percocets and all this stuff. And here
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: I was doing an illegal activity on top of having
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: cancer just to find something that may make me feel better.
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: So my whole thing was like, I was being pumped
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: full of synthetics. It was the height of the opioid pandemic.
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: And I just didn't feel good. Like I was taking six, seven, eight,
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: nine pills just to get to bed at night.
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: Or I could use a pot brownie. And so I
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: leaned into that. Nature is the world's pharmacy. And so
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: I felt it was, and I was able to reduce
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: a lot of the dosages on the synthetic drugs that
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: the docs were prescribing me and eliminate some completely. So,
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: That was a big sign for me. And then post-cancer,
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: I struggled incredibly with anxiety and fear of relapse to
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: the point where I couldn't even leave the house. It
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: was debilitating. It was more difficult for me after cancer
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: than going through cancer. And that's when CBD and cannabis
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: became even more helpful in my life.
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: And it's now a big industry and you're part of it, right?
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: You're an ambassador. You don't grow it, do you?
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: I don't grow it, come from it through the medical side. However,
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: this past summer, I did something that was definitely not
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: medically related in the cannabis space. But I'm all about access.
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: I'm all about guided, safe cannabis use. There's an organization
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: out there called EO Care. They provide personalized physician guided
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: medical cannabis care plans for cancer patients, survivors, care partners
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: and seniors. So like, Cannabis is really overwhelming. You walk
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: into a dispensary, that's not a hospital. You talk to
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: a bud tender, that's not a doctor. And they're telling
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: a guy like me, like you need to do this,
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: this and this. When they know nothing about me, what
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: drugs I'm on, what cancer I have, what cross indications
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: could happen. So my whole advice to everyone out there
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: is find a medical cannabis doctor that has oversight, that
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: you see regularly, not just once to get your card
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: and check in with them over time. Just like a
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: real medical doctor would do. If you're prescribed Percocet, they're
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: going to say, take one pill every four hours. I'll
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: call you in two days, see how you're feeling. Maybe
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: we help it, maybe reduce it. That doesn't happen with cannabis.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: You get your card and you just figure it out
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: as you go. It's all on you. So that's kind
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: of my soapbox on the cannabis space.
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: It's a good soapbox. Yeah, well, but I think, you know,
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: it's fairly now well accepted and accessible in most states,
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: if not all. And then the new administrations opened that
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: up further. And now we're talking, The next stage, which
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: is psilocybin and a whole new category of psychedelics to
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: go with it. So we're moving in the direction of
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: more holistic wraparound, not so much alternative. But hopefully people
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: understand by combining both, your chances for a better outcome
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: seem higher. And you mentioned music too, which we're studying.
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: I launched a program with Mickey Hart. and the opera
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: singer Renee Fleming. I've talked to her about it called
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: Music as Medicine and the focus being how do certain
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: frequencies and playlists and certain music match up certain diseases
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: and helping people, particularly with mental health from depression and
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: post-traumatic stress. There's a lot of study going on in
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: combination with psilocybin and other modalities, but we're funding this
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: through the Foundation of the National Institutes of Health. So
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: something we'd love to get you more up to speed on.
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: I would love to get more up to speed on that.
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: And there's some people in my world that may be
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: very interested in helping you with this or help funding it. Definitely.
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: And the whole psychosilvin thing, I think there's more efficacy
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: in research and data in the benefits of psychedelics for
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: like a PTSD mental health than THC cannabis, to be honest.
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: So I'm excited to see where this industry goes and
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: if we can get some good safe regulation around it
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: and people that can help administer it in a safe
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: way too.
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: So, I mean, I heard you were in New York
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: at the Survivor premiere. Is that the new season?
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the new season.
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: Are you getting back involved in it? I mean, are
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: you going to go back on? What's the deal?
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: I'm not going back on. There was like a.
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: Reunion like the Real Housewives or what? Kind of.
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah. We're on season 51, if you can believe it.
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: And Every time there's a new season, it's great for
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: folks like me because I'm relevant. Like I'm relevant twice
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: a year when the new season premieres because everyone wants
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: to talk to you. Like, what do you think about
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: the new season? Who do you think is going to win?
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: What are the new twists and advantages?
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: They had something at the American Dream in New Jersey,
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: a big activation where they brought in the challenges from
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: the show and fans could play them. And there's meet
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: and greets and photo ops and all that fun stuff.
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: And there's a revival. There is a survivor revival that
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: happened during the pandemic. It's still like on a trend.
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: I think that's happened with dancing with the stars too.
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: Like it's sort of like some of these, the reality
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: shows that began everything are now kind of back, but
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: partially because they're not the most expensive things to put
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: together relative to scripted and that's all streaming land. And
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: so if you're CBS, I guess.
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: When are we going to see you on survivor?
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: Why do they have elderly survival or what?
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: They usually have one or two. Hey, You look pretty fit.
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: I think you could do it.
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: I'm fit. I could do it. You're right. Nice challenge.
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: I like that.
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: Survivor is a game of relationships. It's one 39-day networking event.
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: You would crush it. It's how you interact.
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: I would crush it. I love it. That is my thing.
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: It's literally a social game. It's how you interact with
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: the other people that determine how far and how well
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: you're going.
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: I watched the early years with you and others and
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: I did get that. That was the story really behind
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: the story. I don't know. I think maybe this next
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: gen is a little less dependent. I feel like they
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: want to be less dependent on the phone. They want
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: to be out in the world and in nature and
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: taking on challenges. I do think we're coming back around
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: to a reality that people want real stuff, which is
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: why I love Get Real, right? I mean, we want
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: real connection and real relationship, and that stuff is what
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: makes things happen. Yeah.
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: People are showing up for all, I mean, I'm looking
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: in the health and wellness space, but there are these
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: in real life survivor events that are happening. There are
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: these run clubs that are like blowing up right now.
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: These wellness adventures, exercise challenges, they've always been around, but
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: I think they're trending now for the exact reason, as
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: you said, you know, like raves that start at 6 a.m.
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: at a coffee shop instead of like Twilo in New
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: York City where you're going crazy doing drugs.
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: Well, that really brings us to your series too, Kicking
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: Back and it brings together soccer and cannabis and community
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: and world cup cities why do those three things belong
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: in the same conversation soccer cannabis community.
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: Well, I think all three are about how strangers come
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: together and create a community really quickly. You could go
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: anywhere in the world and you put a soccer ball
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: down in the corner and you whip out a joint
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: and you instantly have 25 friends, you know? And this
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: is the first time in the history of the World
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: Cup where it was happening in countries that were cannabis-friendly. Mexico, Canada,
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: and the United States. So we've actually never even been
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: able to have a conversation like this. So the show
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: that I hosted is called Kicking Back. It was a
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: soccer and cannabis-themed World Cup travel series on High Times.
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: It's out there live on High Times' YouTube channel right now,
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: eight episodes, about 10 minutes each. We went from city
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: to city just exploring the community around soccer and cannabis,
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: and it was a wild trip. I'm still recovering now,
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: so I might need some extra brain cells if you
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: can find them for me.
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: I'm into health citizenship like you are. You also have
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: your grassroots soccer initiative that probably does not involve cannabis.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: Can you talk to me about the motivation for that? Sure.
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: So before Survivor, I lived and played professional soccer in Zimbabwe.
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: And while I was there, I witnessed firsthand what was
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: happening with HIV and AIDS and how it was just
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: destroying the community that I was a part of. And
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: then I had a couple of teammates that got sick
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: with HIV, kicked off the team, ostracized from the community
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: and just lived their end of the life in like
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: a really sad, horrible, lonely way. And so after my
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: time playing in Zimbabwe, came back to the United States,
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: went on the show Survivor. Survivor happened to take place
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: in Kenya and I had a similar experience where I
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: got to play hacky sack with all these children in
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: a little village of Wamba. Later I found out they
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: were HIV positive. So long story short, I had this
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: real life experience in the middle of this cutthroat game
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: of Survivor. And so when I won and I had
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: a million bucks in my pocket and 15 minutes of fame,
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: I just wanted to be the guy that kind of
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: gave away more hacky sacks and used that money and
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: fame to do something a little bit good in the world.
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: And so we created this organization called Grassroots Soccer. And
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: Grassroots Soccer is an adolescent health organization using the power
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: of soccer to help change the behaviors of young boys
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: and girls so they can lead healthier lifestyles.
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: Is that U.S. or international? Where's the focus?
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: The focus has been international. 65 countries. We've graduated 25
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: million kids from the program, trained 23,000 coaches worldwide. partnership
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: with nine African governments. However, now over the past 18 months,
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: we came to the United States and we've been running
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: mental health soccer programs in the United States. And we
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: partnered with FIFA and the World Cup host committees to
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: run mental health soccer camps in the cities hosting a
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: World Cup match this past summer and partnering with organizations
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: like Boys and Girls Club, YMCA, JCCs to roll out
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: a sport-based mental health program for adolescents.
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: So I showed up loud and proud about my Jewish identity.
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: I know that's important to you. Let's talk about that
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: because I know some of our mishpucha lately are a
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: little self-conscious about talking about it. Like literally I've had
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: coffees where people are whispering about it. I'm like, why
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: can't you just like Jewish, you know how that Woody
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: Allen movie cancer is whispered. It's like now it's like,
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: so how is that showing up for you and your world?
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: It's showing up loud and proud, like you said. I
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: think in times like this for the Jewish community, it's
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: the time where we do need to stand up, speak out,
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: be loud, be proud. This started early on for me,
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: going back to season, my Survivor Africa season, where I
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: never thought my religion would be a deciding factor in
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: the game. But I got to bring two t-shirts. One
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: of the shirts was my Maccabee USA t-shirt from 2001,
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: soccer jersey. which was great. And then they put me
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: in a tribe with a guy that never met a
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: Jewish person before. And I had never met anyone who's
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: never met a Jewish person before. And they wanted conflict.
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: And there's this one challenge where I want a plate
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: of food. They gave me a big fat piece of
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: ham and I chose not to eat it. And this
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: guy was like, he's a Jew. He's a Jew. He
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: won't eat the ham. So it was this whole big
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: kerfuffle during the show Survivor about religion and Judaism. And
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: some people criticize me for laughing it off. Other people
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: criticize this other guy. And I saw that as a
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: teaching moment. Like, All of a sudden, here I was
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: with this guy and I had the opportunity to teach
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: him about the food we eat, the holidays we celebrate,
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: the rules of our culture. And that was broadcast globally
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: in front of 27 million people. So at that time,
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: I kind of like skyrocketed to like Jewish wilderness icon
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: out of my control. But since then, I realized here's
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: an incredible platform to be a proud Jew. They hadn't
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: seen anyone like me on TV before. And that's parlayed
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: to today.
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: And as you know, and playing soccer and doing Survivor,
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: like all things not typically associated, right? It's again, all
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: the usual stereotypes. As I often say, it's you got
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: to organize versus agonize. So it's just about really be it.
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: I mean, there's nothing you can do about it. And
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: it's like, Again, it's one of these things right now
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: when I talk to friends about it, it's like, first
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: of all, when has it really been that different? Like
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: if we're being honest. But some people have grown up
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: in more sheltered environments. I wasn't one of them. But
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: it's ironic because I grew up in this small town
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: where everyone went to camp, Honesdale, Pennsylvania. Everyone went to
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: Tyler Hill Camp or Trails End Camp or wherever. And
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: they're like, there were Jews there. I just can't believe it.
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: But it was an interesting and ironic thing that I
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: had to show up strong or you get run over.
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: How about today with like what you're doing with the podcast?
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: Have you faced any pushback or?
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: If I read every little thing, yeah, there's probably stuff
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: I do get it. I think everybody has different views
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: and opinions, which there was a time when that was okay.
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: like two people could think two different things and there
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: wasn't a vilification of one or the other it's like
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: look you got a point of view and you got
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: a point of view and we can disagree and get
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: along which is kind of what happened a little bit
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: on survivor right but i mean you weren't going to
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: completely change that dude he's not from that right but
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: you know my view is let's just all Hold our views,
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: make a good argument. If you're dumb and you can't
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: make a good argument, I can't help you. But I
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: think everyone agreeing on everything is boring. Yeah. Well, yeah.
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: I mean, there's a quote, Abraham Lincoln quote, I do
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: not like that man. I must get to know him better.
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: Right. Exactly.
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: So once you get to know someone better, it's just
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: a bridge to understanding, right? Like you may or may
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: not be able to work with this person in a
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: future situation.
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: So it sounds like you dig music. And I always
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: ask this question, if there was an album that's the
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: soundtrack of your life, what is that?
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: There's one song by Gym Class Heroes called The Fighter.
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: So that kind of, I like the title of that. Obviously, survivor, Beyonce, survivor,
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: a fighter, survivor would be kind of the soundtrack of
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: my life, I would think.
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: Awesome. Love the t-shirt, by the way. Very cool.
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: It's called Survivor.
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. Where do we get that?
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: You can get it on my website, ethanzahn.com. It's cancer related.
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: And then Survivor happened. So then it was double dipped
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: into the Survivor universe.
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, love it. So I got a quick lightning round
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: before we say goodbye. All right. Survivor gave you Outwit, Outplay, Outlast. Yeah.
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: Is there a phrase Cancer gave you?
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: I always say like, we're all gonna have to die,
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: but we're all gonna have to live until we die.
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: How are you going to live? That's really kind of
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: a statement. Or, you know, never let a crisis go
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: to waste because it's an opportunity to do some important things.
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: Those would be the two things.
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: Is there a cancer myth you believed before you were diagnosed?
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: It might sound crazy, but the myths and misbeliefs. But
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: I thought, you know, like you had to have a
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: positive attitude to survive cancer. Until I had cancer and
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: I realized, like, there are times I'm really not a
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: nice guy and I know a lot of other assholes
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: who have survived cancer. But the idea of remaining positive
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: in this toxic positivity in this world, you need to
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: feel all the feels when you go through cancer, the
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: highs and the lows, just focusing on the positive, just
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: that's too much. And it puts extra pressure on those
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: cancer survivor to feel like they have to suffer in
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: a positive way when they really should be feeling all
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: the emotions.
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: And maybe get the help like from cannabis and other
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: things that are probably deemed a little bit more alternative
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: to get you through it. What would you say to
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: someone who just heard they have cancer?
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: Oh, I think your old self was probably great. Your
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: new self transformed self is going to be even better
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: is what I can say to them about that. And
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: I guess don't wait to ask for help. Often the
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: thoughts and feelings that someone taking care of you is
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: having is the same as the cancer patient themselves. So
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: the better you can communicate and talk about what's going on,
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: the better opportunity you can connect and have a more
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: positive experience getting through cancer.
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: Well, it sounds like you said you want to seek
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: out community and you can do that. The thing we
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: have in common with Patrick Dempsey and the Dempsey Center,
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: that's a lot of what the power of that is, right?
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: You go, there's a community of people who understand what
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: you're going through. So finding those people who've been through it,
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: and I know everyone's a little different, but I've certainly
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: heard that from lots of my friends who've been going
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: through it since my wife and have my wife having
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: other people she could go talk to who got it.
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: And really understood it, I think, is key. Seeking out
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: that community. And that is what I did to cope
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: with it. I went out to hear music. We have
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: a Grateful Dead cover band playing every other night here,
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: or maybe every night here, with amazing talent. And being
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: with that community. And they carried me through. through the
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: whole journey.
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: You're never alone, right? You're never alone in this cancer journey,
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: even when you don't have to be. And you don't
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: have to be exactly.
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: All right. Well, thanks Ethan. What a great pleasure to
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: hang out with you. I hope you get more time.
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: I'm sure we will. All right, man.
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much.
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: Hey everyone. Thanks for watching. I really appreciate that you
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: take the time to listen to this and, tune in.
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: So please subscribe, follow. I've got a lot of amazing guests.
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: You're going to learn a lot and you're going to
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: feel a lot better because you did it.