Latest / The Land Development Podcast with Ryan Glick / Why Great Neighborhoods Don't Happen by Accident with Colby Cox - TLP176

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Why Great Neighborhoods Don't Happen by Accident with Colby Cox - TLP176 · The Land Development Podcast with Ryan Glick

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: We've seen over 100% inflation in the last seven years in our costs, which is a really hard thing to manage.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not just vertical two by fours and drywall.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we're seeing it in, you know, asphalt and concrete and PVC and a lot of the infrastructure costs.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: And what people don't talk about very often is that the entitlement costs have just gone crazy to the point where I think on average, we're spending between$50,000 and$75,000 a home just on permits and fees in various jurisdictions.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, politicians don't like to talk about that when they point the finger at the rise in housing prices and how it's, you know, and they like to try to make developers look like greedy and making all kinds of money right now.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, developers in a lot of ways, the margins have not gotten better over the last 10 years.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: They've gotten worse.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: I can tell you mine have.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, a lot of the money is going into the supply chain, and then it's going into entitlement cost.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, what's going on, everybody?
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to the land development podcast.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: I am your host, Ryan Glick.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm excited today to be joined by Colby Cox.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: Colby is the founder and CEO of Convergence Communities.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: Colby, thanks for joining me.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thanks for having me.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: Good to be here.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think we got to jump right into your background and how you got into land development to begin with.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: Could you share your story on kind of how you got into this space?
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, uh I guess briefly, I went to undergrad at University of Denver and they had a program there under the business school in real estate finance and construction management.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: I really didn't know you know what I wanted to do with my career, but that seemed interesting in terms of selecting a major, so I went down that road and ended up doing a couple of internships during college for other developers, one in particular who was a couple young guys that were starting a company and building um some interesting projects in the mid-Atlantic.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and so really got excited about the scale of, you know, uh what's residential development and master plan communities.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: And from there briefly went and worked for a very large home builder in North Carolina after college, um, but broke away from that pretty quickly and started my company um because I was pretty anxious to be my own boss and and be able to take a company in direction I wanted to go and a bit naive as well, and and I think that helped in terms of you know risk and and and but anyway, it it all eventually worked out in the twists and turns of entrepreneurship and 24 years later, now I've been doing this and um learned a lot along the way, but uh I I think also have gotten a lot more focused on, you know, the type of projects I like to do.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: When you were working for the larger builder, did you was it at that point where you realized, like, hey, this is something I want to do long term?
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: Or did it take you doing it yourself for maybe a a couple of years before you're like, all right, I can do this, and this is something that I really want to, you know, build my whole like career around?
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: I was convinced that I was, you know, that this was the right industry for me because, you know, it it had a combination of scale, you know, like it was big enough where I really felt like what I was doing mattered and that it was important.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: Longevity, you know, these things, these projects we build are going to be here for a long time and they change the the landscape and have an impact.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so there was like a significance to it that that I really felt.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and so, and then it, you know, because of those things and it it was really exciting.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and and you have to keep in mind it was 2001 that I graduated college.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: The market was going absolutely crazy in housing.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: And when I was working for that builder, I mean, you know, I just had this overwhelming feeling that like now was the time to do it.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it was, you know, waiting another year or two and really, you know, that I was never gonna know everything I needed to know, you know, and the only way to do it was, you know, on the job.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so let's just dive in and figure it out.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, I like that because we've got a lot of people listening in who are relatively new to the industry.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: And we've got the seasoned vets, but we also have people who are maybe looking to do their first project and maybe they work for another developer right now and they kind of want to branch out on their own.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think hearing your experiences, you know, early on of like this, it's never gonna be perfect.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: And at some point you got to take that jump.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: Were there certain things early on in, you know, in the entrepreneurship world for you that you didn't expect or maybe any any big lessons learned that happened early on for you?
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I guess I was the, you know, one of the parts of being naive was thinking that if I offered something, you know, compelling to the market, that the market would bite, you know.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: So if I if I provided a, you know, an op, you know, a value to my customer, let's say I started by building product for other developers.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: That was kind of the original model, was starting a construction company.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I just assumed that if I was the lowest price, people would pick me.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, in retrospect, that is quite naive because now I realize that, you know, I was also simultaneously pr presenting a future competitor to a lot of people.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so there were all kinds of considerations.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: And and so, you know, there there was a lot more drama than I anticipated um in getting off the ground.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, it's history has a way of kind of blurring, you know, some of those memories and and I look back with fondness on a lot of it, but um it it it was tough.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: It was it was not easy, and I ended up having to, you know, we we st we started I started the company with two other guys and we each put up four thousand dollars and that was how we were gonna get it off the ground.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: And um, that money ran out very quickly, and I ended up having to go borrow fifteen thousand from my stepfather, and he handed me a check and you know, and also a loan agreement, and then told me very specifically, here you go, make this last, and don't ever ask me for money again.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: So that's great.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: Well, your uh company today, so Convergence Communities, uh, for people who are listening in that may not be familiar with your company, could you describe what you do and where you operate?
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I started the company in Delaware, it's where I'm from, um, southern, southern Delaware, and and mostly it focused on the mid-Atlantic for a long time until about 2015.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um I moved into Texas and the specifically the San Antonio market and and have done quite a bit there since.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: But I've been in worked on projects in Maryland uh and Delaware and North Carolina.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: Right now I have active projects in Texas and Delaware.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm located in Jackson Hole, Wyoming.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: I've lived here for 20 years.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: This is where, you know, my C-suite sits and and has been for a long time.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, we we're active anywhere.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: I've looked at projects, you know, in other places, haven't pulled the trigger.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm actively looking at one in Colorado right now, but we'll see.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: What is uh so having that experience in quite a few different markets, you know, we have with people listening in from, again, we have a lot of people listening in from Texas, but we've got a lot of people up the East Coast listening as well.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I would imagine that there's some similarities to projects in these different markets, but there's also probably some contrast to those projects as well.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: What are the major, I guess, differences that you see when you're going to do a project in Texas versus maybe Maryland or Delaware?
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, there are nuances in terms of, you know, products for sure.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: When you get into dealing with builders and designs and, you know, um different regions seem to, for whatever reason, you know, the consumer once, you know, has very specific things in terms of floor plans and layouts that they look for.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: There are also some expectations, you know, in communities of Texas that, you know, you must have this or that in terms of clubhouses and pools and stuff that might be a little bit different than the Mid-Atlantic.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um so, but I would say a lot of the major considerations are similar.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: And most of that comes down to dealing with entitlements and um and the costs of entitlements, and a lot of those things are and the and the ease or lack thereof.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um I did a project in New Jersey one time, or I tried to do a project in New Jersey and spent seven years in approvals, never got approved, and finally walked away and decided, you know, I'll never do that again.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: So Texas is a little different.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: We seem to be, you know, a bit more reasonable towards growth.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I see that, you know, in a lot of places in the Sun Belt and the Mid-Atlantic.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: But I think most people listening to this, you know, that are in the business recognize that it's getting harder everywhere and more difficult in terms of the process and and the cost.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: So, but mostly similar, I will say the biggest surprise I had moving into Texas was the ratio of what builders were willing to pay for finished lots versus the price of a finished home.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I found that, you know, in areas around the mid-Atlantic, that number would push up towards 30%.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: But in Texas, for whatever reason, it was down in the low 20s.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so that was a bit of a shock, you know, and Texas enters the public financing program.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: Basically makes just about every project in Texas feasible and without one infeasible.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you had mentioned your uh, you know, you being located in Jackson Hole.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm curious about how do you have to structure your team and the business and everything, being able to really manage the company from there.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure it has to do with uh having good team members and people around you in order to make that happen.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: Can you describe that a little bit of how you've been able to make that work?
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I developed a project.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: The impetus, I guess, behind the move was I developed a project in 2003, four, and five where I actually I lived only about maybe a hundred yards from the loc the project location.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I learned quite quickly that that was not an ideal setup.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: Even though, you know, I thought project was generally widely accepted, and it kind of became a situation where I couldn't even go out to dinner without having a conversation with somebody about this project.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I decided, you know, that from now on, you know, I'd rather travel to the projects, you know, wherever they are and live somewhere else than than the opposite.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: So anyway, made the move to Jackson and then kept my office in Delaware for a couple of years, but eventually moved that out here and really just kind of the core like team and left you know all of the project management locally.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: So the biggest thing for us is to hire local professionals when in whatever you know jurisdiction we're in.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: So the the best engineers, the best attorneys, land planners, what have you that are used to working in that market, we always hire hire locally.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'll usually, as we start construction, bring on a project manager at the local level as well.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: And then kind of our our general marketing, finance, and operations is all here in Jackson and with, you know, some travel to to kind of keep up with all the projects where they are.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: But that's that's worked for me.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I know some people um like to kind of focus on a geographic area and just kind of own that area, and they'll do a variety of projects, could be commercial, multifamily, all of these things.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: For convergence, we do we we are more focused on the type of project we develop and we're a little bit geographically agnostic.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: So we only do master plan communities, we only do them a certain way, but we you know, we might do that in you know, three or four states at a time.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's interesting because you do see it, you do see companies operate in a in a couple different ways.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you you have some that I I've talked to that operate similar to you, you've got others that but they they may not do projects outside of their region or maybe outside their state as well.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: So they live relatively close to where the projects are at just naturally.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um but uh with with the master plan communities that you you just mentioned, the ones that you do, you know, when you think about those different projects that you're spinning up and developing and everything, what makes one of those projects in your mind successful?
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like what does success look like for you with those projects?
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: The way we define success is that we should be outperforming most of the projects around us by virtue of placemaking amenities and branding.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's the the simple answer is that if we are, you know, and the the best way to measure that is when things are not going uh swimmingly, you know, market-wise.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: So uh in our minds, if we've built the right community, one that gives people a sense of community, uh, makes them feel a part of something, that it should be uh outperforming, you know, let's say your standard subdivision when things get a little bit more difficult.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so we we believe we should be able to demand a little bit of a higher price point, get a little bit better velocity velocity, and then when the market turns and gets a little soft, um, we should, you know, do a little bit better than let's say, you know, our competition.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so that that's really how we measure it.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: And that is why we pour so much time and energy into these projects and on the front end, in terms of design and and then dollars and cents as we go along.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, our amenity packages and and things are are quite robust in all of our projects.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: This episode of the Land Development Podcast is brought to you by our friends at First Continental.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: For more than 30 years, First Continental is focused on one thing: lot development.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: Based in Houston and established in 1994, First Continental specializes in non-recourse lot acquisition and development financing.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: Their experienced team of management and loan servicing professionals has financed more than 1,350 residential communities and over 110,000 lots across the South, Southeast, and Mountain West.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: For builders and developers, First Continental is more than a lender.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: They're a steady partner, known for consistent support, trusted guidance, and deep industry know-how.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: With a singular focus and proven record supporting more than 200 of America's best builders and developers, they know how to help projects move from plan to reality.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: To learn more about First Continental and how they can support your next community, visit FirstContinental.com.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: All right, let's get back to the show.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: We see a lot of, or you know, we read about a lot about different developments and some of the price points that people are selling at.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: And you're seeing a lot of builders and developers start to sell at a little higher price point just because it seems like there's more demand there versus some of the entry level, because a lot of the entry level people can't necessarily even afford to buy homes.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, with your communities, what are you seeing?
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: And are you operating kind of more at that mid to higher tier you mentioned a little bit, uh more premium price point?
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: Is that where you're operating?
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you, you know, we try to, in all of our communities, we try to offer product in all segments.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, we will try to have first-time homebuyer products, which is getting more and more difficult, but we um we get pretty creative in trying to do so.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, uh in a product project we launched maybe six months ago called the granary in Milton, Delaware, we're we're flirting with the idea of some communal living product in order to hit a lower price point for first-time homebuyers.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: So we'll see.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's you know, that's in the beta phase right now.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: But but we typically try to um get as as diverse a mix of demographics in our community as possible.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: So we'll have, you know, the first time we'll have move up, we'll have, let's say, move moving, you know, into children and early family.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then we'll, you know, all the way to empty nester and and ultimately, you know, we don't touch the kind of the aging out market, assisted living, things like that.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's not really our business, but all the way up to that point, yeah, is is we see kind of the value chain for the communities we're trying to deliver.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm interested in what you talked about with was it granary?
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: Is that the the name of the development?
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: What's the are you able to talk about some of those, you know, communal living concepts that you you're kind of playing around with right now?
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm liable to get myself in trouble, but I'll I'm happy I'm happy to do it because I uh um I don't care, I guess.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: But I I, you know, and the reason I say that is because I'm we're literally like doing sketch drawings and stuff on the whiteboard in our office and just flirting with different ideas of like how this could work.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: But the general concept is that you know, we've seen over a hundred percent inflation in the last seven years in our costs, um, which is a really hard thing to to manage.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: And and that's not, you know, that's not just you know, vertical two by fours and drywall.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we're seeing it in, you know, asphalt and concrete and PVC and a lot of the infrastructure costs.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: And what people don't talk about very often is that the entitlement costs have just gone crazy.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, to the point where I think on average, we're spending between$50,000 and$75,000 a home just on permits and fees in various jurisdictions.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, politicians don't like to talk about that when they point the finger at the rise in housing prices and how it's, you know, and they like to try to make developers look like, you know, they're just greedy and making all kinds of money right now.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, developers in a lot of ways, their margins have not gotten better over the last 10 years, they've gotten worse.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: I can tell you mine have.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, a lot of the money is going into the supply chain, and then it's going into entitlement costs.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: So given that landscape, okay, what do we, you know, what can we do to try to deliver a product that's affordable for somebody who is uh maybe in the first five years of their career.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: So an idea is to like take a single lot and offer maybe three or four different dwelling units on that lot with a common or shared communal space for kitchen, living, and general gathering area, where in your kind of bedroom unit, you would still have a hangout space and maybe a little kitchenette, but a more robust kind of gathering space would be available to multiple people to use.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: And that would lower the overall cost of the unit because there'd be some shared um some of those shared activities.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: So that that's something we're flirting with.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: And the question is, okay, how low can we get the price?
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know?
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: And in our mind, you know, in a in a market like Delaware, the goal would be sub 200,000.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: And if we could do that, we believe we could cater to a broader base of first-time home buyers.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's what we're working on.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: Now, is that going to be an attractive way to live?
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: Something tells me that it will work for not only young people, but it might also work for older people, especially older people living on their own, who may not be ready to, you know, they're very independent and not ready to move into more of an assisted living environment, but also want to feel some level of, you know, support and um engagement with other people on a regular basis.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so we'll see.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, this is like, and we'll we'll go ahead and do it.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: We're probably gonna do it.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: And we'll build maybe four or five of these lots, you know, maybe 20 or 30 units and and see what happens.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: And if it's a complete dud, we won't do it again.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: But if it works, you know, we'll tweak it, we'll refine it, and we'll keep going.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I like it.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I like the the thinking of different approaches.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like I, you know, I one thing I've been trying to figure out, and you know, we get a lot, we see a lot of reporting on the different demographics, the different generations and the things they're looking for.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, through this podcast, I pay pretty close attention to online sentiment.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: And you you don't always know who the people are behind the profiles that post things and stuff, but of course we post stuff on social, so we get people making comments about the greedy developers or you know, whatever they may be saying.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, you you still have a lot of people who are trapped in this thought of they want this, they want five acres and this house, but they they their budget isn't even close to five acres and this house.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so it doesn't seem like you know, Gen Z and the this next generation that's getting into the home buying age um has that same mindset.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like it's it's my my demographic of millennials that are really have that mindset.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: And if they haven't already purchased a house, they're still thinking of you know, they wish they would have got a house that big.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know how that's all going to play out.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: It seems like there has to definitely be a mindset shift in some of those buyers, or though maybe they'll be renters forever.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: They won't end up being buyers and it's it's we're looking at a different demographic from that standpoint.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: Have you have you paid attention to this or seen any of that maybe in some of your own communities and the different demos that are moving in?
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I do see it a bit in the sense that, and I also think that there, you know, this idea that like, you know, if I can't have exactly what I want, then I'd rather have nothing at all.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I don't think that's, you know, serving that demographic very well because establishing yourself with something and starting to build some amount of equity over time in a product that you own versus rent.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: I also think there's this attitude with, you know, and I'm not going to point out any specific demographic group, but I let's just say with, you know, some people that are younger and they look at my generation, you know, I'm 47 years old, and they think like things were different when we, you know, were graduating college and having to get started.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: And the truth is that we had to suck it up and deal with not getting what we wanted at that time either.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: And things were expensive, and I got paid a lot less in my first job than I thought I was going to, and I could afford a lot less.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I lived in an apartment for a while, and my first home was built in the 1600s.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: It required a tremendous amount of work on my part to fix it up.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I paid about 180,000 bucks for it at the time, which it was expensive given that, you know, my income level, single, and you know, but I stretched into it, and I'm glad I did, because it it was a stepping stone to the next thing.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so I just think there's a lot of problems outside of affordability with down payments right now and all kinds of other stuff.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: But I think I would encourage younger people to stretch into ownership and out of rental product as soon as possible, because I think ultimately it leads towards the ability to get what you want later in life as you build equity over time and you can um, you know, so and there's there's some amount of just like freedom that comes from ownership, um, the sense of autonomy.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: Even if you only own 10% of your home and the mortgage company owns 90% of it, it's still yours.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I think that that makes a difference.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's uh there definitely are some changes that I hope to see happen uh with things, but um, you know, we'll see, we'll see how some of that plays out.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I think with your with your communities that you've built and that you're building right now, you know, what are just to get a feel for kind of the vibe of what what you want people to feel when they see those communities, what's that, you know, when if I was to pull up to one of your communities right now, like what would you hope that I see or feel with your community?
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, the first thing that I want you to feel is that it's obviously going to be under construction.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: So it's going to be apparent that something new is going on.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: But the goal of the way that we develop is that when we're finished and you pull into this community, it feels like it has been a part of the greater community that we put it in the whole time.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so I don't, you know, I don't like gates.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: I don't like trying to close our communities or separate them from the greater community or the town that we're in.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: We try to mimic intern like connection points and, you know, whether it's walking, biking, what have you, and and make things seamless.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: We try to integrate and add to um, you know, let's say parks and natural spaces that are available.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: The granary, for example, the town that that's going in in Milton, Delaware, when we first started talking to them, we found out they had less than 10 acres of public parks and open space in the entire town, which has been around for 400 years.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so the first thing that we set out to do was to increase that.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: So this community is going to add over 50 acres of public parks to the town, and it's all public access.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so the idea is not only to make the community feel like it's or the our project feel like it's integrated with the community, but give a reason for the community that exists outside our project to integrate within.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so seamless integration is a big one.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then a sense of like a welcoming environment, you know, that that's really what we want.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: We want, you know, the idea of community is really important to us.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: And most people, their sense of community comes from the place where they live, you know, and so everything we focus on is to try to get people out of their home as much as possible and engaging with not only the community, you know, their home is in, but the greater community that that is a part of.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: Everything we do is is based around that um, design-wise, programming-wise.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: We're doing some cool stuff in this, in this project in Milton to try to really activate the community.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I'm building for the first time ever a brewery incubator, which is kind of a combination of my love for entrepreneurship, but also creating kind of a gathering space around, you know, a beverage that's been consumed for 10,000 years and and kind of breaks down barriers and you know, and gets people to see the things in themselves that they agree on uh more than the things that they don't.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's we're working on that kind of a concept right now and actually probably going to start that within the next year.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: So doing doing some clever things like that, that, you know, I what I have found in, you know, traveling all over the world and visiting different communities that sometimes it's like these little subtle things that can s make something feel just a little bit different and unique and special that give people a sense of place, you know, that this is this is a cool place to be and this is theirs and they feel a part of it.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: Do you sense that people are craving that right now?
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like, or do you think people I feel like the last six years have been weird, right?
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: So, and so you had a lot of isolation, you had a lot of people who weren't, there wasn't really community there, but you're still I feel like you're starting to see people crave more of the in-person.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: You're seeing, you're seeing more in-person businesses versus like people shopping in person versus buying online happen more often now.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, are you seeing the same thing with your communities and what you're seeing from residents?
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: And it's showing up, you know.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if you're if you're not seeing it, you're not paying attention, right?
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's like people generally are, you know, broad scale, the level of happiness that people have is decreasing significantly.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: The use of, you know, antidepressants is increasing significantly.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: People feel more isolated, they feel more cut off.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: The grand experiment of treating people, you know, as if they're just interchangeable commodities and work from home versus work in person, and none of that matters, and that people are more productive if they're disconnected, like all of that has failed miserably.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's gonna fail with AI tremendously as well, is the next step, this concept of universal basic income and that people don't need purpose, all they need is money.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I think that's gonna fall flat on its face.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, it's just I think people generally human beings need to connect with other human beings.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: It is extremely important and it is a part of who we are.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: And in person is really important because there's some amount of, you know, we don't understand what is going on in our world in terms of the way that, you know, we communicate with, but we know it's a lot more than just what the words that come out of our mouth.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: We know that there's a sense that we get from people, you know, when we're with them, you know, that we can connect in a different way, that there's an energy exchange, that there's body language, and that allows us to relate and to connect.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: And all of that is critical.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: The more that people get that, generally speaking, studies have shown the happier they are, and the the more that they feel less anxiety, less depression, and more overall joy.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, there's three things that we really focus on in any community, and it is connection to nature, connection to each other, and connection to spirit and giving people opportunities for all of those things that are somewhat easy, meaning not forced.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: They feel natural.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: And we're learning more and more about that all the time.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: Every time we do a project, you know, it's it's we look at it as a way to kind of test some new ideas and see if they work well and um and if they do, take them into other communities.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: And but overall, yes, I would say people are absolutely craving connection.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that, you know, it'll be interesting to see what happens in the next 10 years.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: But my guess is that if we continue to try to tell people that these things, connection, you know, human relationships are not important.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: I I just don't see that going very well.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: I I think you're spot on.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: I completely agree with you.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um one other question I had for you here, and I I think I found this in uh when I was doing a little bit of research on you about walkable versus wanderable.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: Is that something that is that one of your concepts?
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'd never heard that before.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: Could you explain what wanderable what a wanderable community is?
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, the concept's kind of like when, you know, when you most people travel.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like when I travel, I go for I I like to go places and I go for runs.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't necessarily map out where I'm going and I don't know where I'm going, but I I'll just start running and and I'll kind of naturally weave my way and I'll, you know, and I've had some interesting experiences where I've just ended up in places that I probably never would have gone to had I not done that.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so what we try to specifically do in our in our communities is a combination of like kind of pathways that, you know, from a design span standpoint make a lot of sense and other ones that make no sense whatsoever.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: So that people can kind of, you know, you stumble onto, you know, an entrance to, let's say, a natural walkway, and you kind of it draws you in to say, okay, I wonder where this goes.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: And you may have set out to do like a one-mile walk around the neighborhood, but you saw this kind of interesting piece of art that was the entrance to this natural pathway, and you're like, let's go look at that.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: And you, you know, a one-mile walk becomes a three-mile walk.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: You didn't even really have to think about it.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's giving people opportunities to explore.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's in the this project we keep talking about, there's like over three miles of walking trails, and some of them are just paved sidewalks, and some of them are just our natural spaces, and they connect to the town.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: You can walk, you know, we're putting a tunnel underneath the highway that allows you to kind of cross the street without worrying about traffic.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: And all of those little things are really important.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's amazing how disruptive like a major highway is to, you know, your sense of connection.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: Trying to trying to just break down some of those mental barriers to, you know, maybe I'll just sit in my living room and watch Netflix versus, hey, what's going on out there?
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_01: Let's go see the world.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: No, I like it.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: I like it, I like that concept.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, do you have a favorite project over the years that uh maybe one that's changed the trajectory of your, you know, business or maybe even a current one that is going on right now that really stands out in your mind?
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I have to say that probably Canary Village was one that changed the trajectory of my career significantly because it I I I took a bite of an apple that was probably a bit aggressive.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: It was a brownfield cleanup project, and you know, I I did not realize how complex that was going to be when I first got into it.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: It was an old factory that I ended up having to tear down, and there was a building that I couldn't get rid of for environmental reasons, and it was over a hundred thousand square feet.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: And we didn't realize that was the case when we first started developing this project.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: So now it's like, okay, we have 500 homes and we have a hundred thousand square foot concrete warehouse that we can't do anything with.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: What do we do with this building?
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: And uh fortunately for us, the Dogfish Head Brewery was interested in moving in there and it became, you know, uh, and in to this day is is the dog the location of the Dogfish Head Brewery, and it's pretty cool.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: But it got me thinking, you know, I was I was really testing out a lot of new ideas on new urbanism and walkability and um zero lot line and all of this stuff.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: And the main thing that I learned from that project, because I think we did a pretty good job, but the main thing that I learned was that you cannot create community from design alone, that that will only get you so far.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: And that programming was really important to get people to activate.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so to get people involved in the community, it's really important that you give them activities and things to do that are programmed and easy and that creates engagement.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's in our latest project, the granary, we're really focusing, you know, design is extremely important, but programming is equally important.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: So the uh I would imagine when you're talking about, you know, programming and activating, these are really concepts that likely are more realistic in larger communities versus, I mean, if it's if it's too small, there's probably an economies of scale of being able to do things like that versus if you're out there building a 20-home or 50 home, you know, subdivision, you're probably not going to have the ability to do some of these other things, which which is fine.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: There's other things you can do to make that community inviting and everything, but I would imagine some of these things you're talking about are for a little bit larger communities.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: Most of our projects are pretty large in scale.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: And and for for that specific reason, because, you know, there's in order for us to do a lot of what we like to do, we need a certain amount of scale.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: But you're right.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: You can, you know, if I was looking at a smaller project, the my focus would be, okay, how do I, how do I attach this to the community in a way that allows people here to feel as connected with what's already there as possible?
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because I may not be able to build it here, but you know, as long as it's proximate and it's relevant and it's easily accessed, like how do I attach it to what is already there?
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's why a lot of our projects are in, you know, these smaller towns that are places that, you know, were designed intentionally hundreds of years ago, usually.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of people would argue that um there was more of a focus around community and community connection then than there is today.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so we typically do not build projects in the middle of nowhere and just try to create our own place.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um we we like to, you know, we like to attach ourselves to existing communities that already have a lot to offer and are already established, but then we, you know, try to enhance those communities and offer them some things that may or may be missing.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, and like I mentioned, in this particular case, you know, a lot of that came down to parks and open space and public access and recreational fields is usually a big one.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_01: There's always, you know, a lot of kids that want to play sports and usually not enough field space to to do so.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh we're gonna build two turf fields for open access to the public.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that's just one example.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's there's always a need, the communities always have needs.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: The best way, I guess, to be a good steward, you know, a good corporate citizen is to not just look at this in terms of, okay, how do we get what we want for our project, but how do we deliver something to the community that may help them?
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: No, I like that.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's a good approach to take because it it solves multiple problems at the same time, right?
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's it's not only making the project better, it's making the community better.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's getting more buy-in on the project as well from the community versus people saying they they don't want the new development there and everything.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: So no, I I really like that.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, well, looking at the time here, we should probably head into the last segment, which is the lightning round.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I've got five questions for you all based on your experiences and everything.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, first one, what's one thing every neighborhood should have?
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: Every neighborhood should have a craft brewery.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, interesting.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: Second one, what's the best piece of advice you've ever received?
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: If you set your expectations low, you will always exceed them.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: All right, third one.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: What's the biggest lesson land development has taught you?
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh no good deed goes unpunished.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: Fourth one, what's one thing you'd tell your younger self when you were getting started in development?
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_02: Probably to aim higher and set bigger goals.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_00: All right, last one.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_00: If you weren't in development in the home building, what would you be doing instead?
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think I would have studied theology.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think in another life I I would have liked to explore spiritually, mindfully, uh the life of a monk, I think is probably another path for me.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think I got through like a fraction of all the things I wanted to talk about today.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe we'll have to do this again another time.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: But there's a lot of really good stuff that uh we got into today.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I really appreciate you hopping on here.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh what what's the best way for people tuning in to you know either connect with you or learn more about your company?
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: So convergencecommunities.com is a good way to just kind of check us out and you can track me down through that website.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the project I've been talking about, the granary, has its own website.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's thegranarymilton.com.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: You can check that out.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, if you just Google my name, I'm on LinkedIn, Instagram, pretty easy to find.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: Cool.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_00: Well, guys, if you look down in the description for this episode, you'll see a link there to the show notes page, and I'll put all those links on the show notes page for you to uh access those websites and uh connect with Colby there.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_00: But uh otherwise, again, appreciate you hopping on here, Colby.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: And guys, if you're not already subscribed, please click that button.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: Love to have you back for the next one.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, we will talk to you all next week.