Latest / Nurtural Disasters / Pilot: No Contact "Trend" Remix!
Transcript
- Lisa: Hello and welcome to Nurtural Disasters. This is a podcast for those of us with toxic or emotionally immature parents. We might not have a bunch of credentials next to our names, but we do have PhDs from the Hard University. Basically, we want this to be a validating space for adult children of parents who had no business having children. So welcome. My name is Lisa. Ken: My name is Lisa. I'm the co-host Ken. Lisa: we're here, know, Ken, we've known each other for how many years? ⁓ We've known each other. Ken: we're here, know, Ken known each other for how many years? ⁓ We've known each other for feel like it's like 10 to 15 years, probably 15 years, right? We met through a... We actually met through a co-worker that I had and then we ended up being closer friends because of that. It's always funny when that happens. Like you end up being closer friends from a friend of a friend. But yeah, we've known each other for a while. But ⁓ I think what made us even closer was that when we started sharing notes on just how our upbringing was... ⁓ Lisa: Oh my god. We actually met through a co-worker that I had and then we ended up being closer friends because of that. It's always funny when that happens. Yeah, I know. Being closer friends from a friend of a friend. But yeah, we've known each other for a while. But I think what made us even closer was that when we started sharing notes on just how our upbringing was, especially with our parents, our relationships with our parents, and kind of create our own support group. Ken: especially with our parents, our relationships with our parents and kind of create our own support group. ⁓ It was not necessarily a good thing with our parents. ⁓ I think we came out pretty much okay. We're normal functioning adults. don't, have a, we go through about our daily lives ⁓ with no issue. ⁓ but we do kind of bond over our relationships with our parents and it's not necessarily a good thing. ⁓ Lisa has no contact with her mom. I'm, ⁓ I guess, low contact with my dad. ⁓ So I'll throw it back to Lisa. Lisa: Yeah, so it's funny. Yeah, we did have a mutual friend. We don't even talk to her anymore. She was not... I'm not sure. What is she doing right now? Ken: Yeah, so it's funny. Yeah, we did have mutual friend We don't even talk to her anymore. She was not I'm not sure what is she doing right now? I don't even know like I don't even know I don't really care. She was a horrible friend to me. I don't think you should put that in but it's like, Sure. Sure. Let's have that. I mean, it's you know, this is an honest space. Yeah, I mean Not everybody's a good friend. Not everybody is a good person as we've learned, you know, that's the thing like when you grow up with Lisa: I don't know. I don't really care. She was a horrible friend to me. ⁓ I mean, this is an honest space. mean, not everybody's a good friend. Not everybody is a good person, as we've learned. That's the thing. When you grow up with toxic parents, you from an early age, not everybody is and it's healthy. ⁓ You you learn that, unfortunately, from your whole life. You some people, they have a luxury of like, ⁓ I didn't even know. I thought the world was a fair place. I didn't even know. Literally like very Pollyanna. But yeah, like Ken said, ⁓ so I'm no contact. My mom is a narcissist and she has not been diagnosed. I do have a cousin who is a psychologist, who's been a psychologist for I think over a decade. He has his own practice and he He basically said, she's a has a cluster B personality on the DSM five. So probably is a malignant narcissist. a yeah. the thing about narcissism is that no narcissist is going to go into a therapist is like, could you gauge if I'm a narcissist or not? It's not usually like a thing. It's usually. Ken: and the thing about narcissism is that no Narcissist is good going to a therapist is like could you gauge if I'm a narcissist or not? not usually like a thing. It's usually ⁓ a victim of narcissists that goes into a therapist or like a psychologist and gives them kind of like how they've been treated and it's like do you think I'm dealing with a narcissist and that's usually how goes. I'm not saying that that's what happens all the time. There are narcissists that are aware that they're a narcissist and try to change how they approach their personalities towards people. But usually if it's someone like a maleficent narcissist there's... There's a good chance they're not going to admit that they're a narcissist. They'll probably say that you're probably just what's the, what's the common narcissist thing that they say, ⁓ you're just too sensitive or other stuff like that. Yeah. The gaslighting, the gaslighting. like, ⁓ there's nothing wrong. You're just too sensitive. You just, everybody's parents is like, are like that, but you don't deal with it. Well, you just overdramatic or something like that. And then if you deal with that for maybe decades of that, you just. Lisa: victim of narcissists that goes into a therapist or like a psychologist and and gives them kind of like how they've been treated it's like do you think I'm dealing with a narcissist and that's usually how it goes I'm not saying that that's what happens all the time there are narcissists are aware that they're a narcissist and try to change how they approach their personalities towards people but usually if it's someone like a narcissist there's no there's a good chance they're not gonna admit that they're a narcissist probably say that you're probably just what's the what's the common narcissist thing that they say ⁓ you're just too sensitive or other stuff like that yeah the gaslighting the gas yeah it's like ⁓ there's nothing wrong you're just too sensitive you just everybody's parents is like are like that Ken: it programs you to think a certain way. For sure, you kind of internalize it. Oh yeah, you internalize it. Maybe I am too sensitive. Maybe I'm just making a big deal out of nothing. No. So you pretty much second guess everything you kind of feel about yourself. And then I think that's what therapy is for people like us. A lot of it is just learning with coping mechanisms and kind of things like that when you're telling your therapist about your situation. It's a lot of at least good therapists in my opinion, or therapists that Lisa: But you don't deal with it. Well, you just over dramatic or something like that and then if you deal with that for maybe Decades of that you just it programs you to think a certain way Mm-hmm for sure you kind of internalize it like ⁓ maybe I am too sensitive Maybe I'm just making big deal out of nothing. No, so you pretty much second-guess everything you kind of feel about yourself I think that's what therapy is for ⁓ people like us. ⁓ a lot of is just learning Ken: tell you that the only thing you can really change is about yourself. So a lot of things I've learned is about radical acceptance, accept that you can't change the people you deal with like your parents. You're not going be able to change that. You could change about your own approach to it, to how you deal with your parents. Remember, Lisa, just right before ⁓ this recording was talking about how she would run into therapists that would be super biased, right? ⁓ So there'll be therapists that tell you a certain thing. They're definitely favoring one person over the other. They're telling you bad like advice pretty much. Yeah. I see my, so my current therapist said, you know, you have therapy trauma. I'm like, therapy trauma? What is, I didn't, I never heard that. And it turns out when you have a bad therapist, they actually do a lot of harm. Lisa: Lisa just right before this recording was talking about how she would run into therapists that would be super biased. So there'll be therapists that tell you a certain thing. They're definitely favoring one person over the other. They're telling you bad advice pretty much. Yeah. So my current therapist said, have therapy trauma. I'm like, therapy trauma? What is? I never heard that. And it turns out when you have a bad therapist, they actually do a lot of harm. I guess you don't realize, people think of therapy as like taking your car into the dealership, Ken: People because you don't realize things like people think of therapy is like taking your car into the dealership Lisa: the shop. Like, yeah, not like that, Ken: not like that, ⁓ Lisa: had some really bad therapists ⁓ and that actually that put me off of having therapy for after, especially this one therapist had when I was a teenager. Ken: I've had some really bad therapists and that actually put me off of having therapy for years after. Especially this one therapist I had when I was a teenager and I was in Mexico City and she was, I think, I think she was like a spy for my dad. I feel like that's how she was because she... Lisa: And I was in Mexico City and she was, I think, I think she was like a spy for my dad. I feel like that's how she was. I said, I don't think she, why is she taking sides? Both of my parents are split up. They split up when I was very little, four. They officially divorced when I was like five, I think. But they had a very acrimonious Ken: divorce. ⁓ So, ⁓ when I was a teenager, ⁓ I was getting therapy in Mexico City and I told my dad, know, I don't, think she's, ⁓ don't like her, I don't trust her. ⁓ Lisa: divorce. ⁓ So when I was a teenager, I was getting therapy in Mexico City and I told my dad, know, I don't, I think she's, I don't, I don't like her. I don't trust her. And you know what he said? He's like, Oh, that's something you read about in a textbook. He was super dismissive. And then I said, I think she's, she takes your side over my mom's. he said, well, he can't, has to be on the side. That's right. And I thought, Ken: And you know what he said? What did he say? Oh, he oh, that's something you read about in a textbook. was super dismissive. And then I said, I think she's she takes your side over my mom's. he said, well, she has to be on the side. That's right. And I thought, OK, and then when I it's explaining this to like other therapists, Lisa: Okay and then when I it's I explaining this to like other therapists later years later they go there's one therapist she told she said was he paying and I was like yeah ⁓ And she's like, hmm, she didn't say she just went, hmm. And I was like, could tell from her face sounds like a conflict of interest. Yeah. Make it so that I sound like the good guy in every situation. And I think that's the thing issue that he has. The therapist tell him what he wants to hear versus like what he needs to hear. Well, that's always been a thing where. Ken: And I could tell from her face. That sounds like a conflict of interest. It's like, hey, make it so that I sound like the good guy in every situation. And I think that's the thing issue that he has. The therapist telling him what he wants to hear versus like what he needs to hear. Well, that's always been a thing where I saw a couple of TikToks and that's a new phenomenon. Now let's talk about new phenomenon. It's like a trend that people think that people that go to therapy are just paying someone to tell them what they want to hear. Not so, if you've been to therapy, a lot of the stuff they tell you it's like you're... It's uncomfortable because they're like calling you out on it. That you should stop doing a certain thing or do this. It's obviously, it's actually not good therapy to go to a place to have someone tell you that you're doing right. Because you're not. That's why you're in therapy. Something's wrong. You don't need... Lisa: Because you're not that's why you're in therapy Something's wrong You don't need you it's like well you're going to a mechanic, right? It's like ⁓ yeah This is sounding wrong something's grinding and your mechanic tells you you're totally fine. Don't worry about If it breaks down it breaks down That's not good therapy Yeah, and or people think ⁓ your carburetor is out and I'm yeah, why your dad kept going there. It's like yeah, I I yeah because people Ken: It's like, well, you're going to a mechanic, right? It's like, ⁓ yeah, this is sounding wrong. Something's grinding. And your mechanic tells you, you're totally fine. Don't worry about it. If it breaks down, it breaks down. That's not good therapy. Yeah. And people think, ⁓ your carburetor's out. And also, yeah, I wonder why your dad kept going there. It's like, yeah, I, yeah, because people really hate that people telling them that they're right all the time. Yeah, people hate that. I was like, oh man, I'm pretty sure it's human nature to love having confirm your biases and your viewpoints on life. You know, for a particular person in leadership and presidency that, you know, we won't talk about here. This is not a political show. Lisa: Right. Ken: Right, Lisa: And you want to hear something funny? Recently that happened with my dad. He's actually he's going to therapy, right? And the therapist contacted me and said, can you write a letter and send it only to me, not him? And my dad knew about this. It's just to me about all the great things so we can build up his self-esteem. And I was like, OK. Is this the same therapist? No, it's a different one. Where does he find these therapists? Ken: It's just to about all the great things so we can build up his self-esteem. ⁓ And I was like, Is this the same therapist? No, it's a different one. Where does he find these therapists? ⁓ I was like, okay. And he's like, I'm trying to build up my self-esteem. And I'm like, okay, I felt bad he's, you know, he's going through divorce number five. ⁓ So. ⁓ Lisa: So I was like, okay, and he's like, I'm trying to build up my self-esteem and I'm like, okay, I felt bad because he's, you know, he's going through divorce number five. and... Divorce number five, totally not his fault. Totally not, no, no, no, no. ⁓ no, that's funny because... So, ⁓ let me finish. So I go and chat GPT and I'm like, can you write a letter in Spanish saying... Ken: and divorce number five totally not his fault totally not no no no no ⁓ no that's funny because so ⁓ let me finish so i go i go on chat gpt and i'm like can you write a letter in spanish saying you know to build up someone's self-esteem to a parent or something like that i did like a prompt and it came back and i'm going back i copy pasted it into like a document and i'm like Lisa: you know to build up someone's self-esteem to a parent or something like that i did like a prompt and it came back and i'm going back i copy pasted it into like a document and i'm like you're very patient nope he's not patient nope nope nope your wisdom nope nope no wife number five nope that's obviously you haven't learned shit and then it was like i had to like like delete half of so what do you end up with it's like um Ken: You're very patient. Nope, he's not patient. Nope, nope, nope. Your, is that? Nope, nope, nope. Wife number five. Nope, that's obviously you haven't learned shit. And then it was like, I had to like, like delete. So, so, so what do you end up with? It's like, um. So delete all the stuff. What do you end up with? What's good about your dad? You, dear dad, um, I appreciate that when I call you, you. Lisa: You know all the stuff what do you end up with? You, dear dad, ⁓ I appreciate that when I call you you I I could tell you anything and you won't really judge me too harshly You'll just say okay or you'll always He tries to help out. You know, if I need help he he's there, Ken: I You have a nice jawline. Thank you for that. Because I inherited. I was like, you're very ⁓ well read and you're very knowledgeable about a lot of Lisa: I think you have a nice jawline. Thank you for that. He likes to a lot. know, I was like, oh, you're very well read and you're very knowledgeable about a lot of things. and I send it to him and I emailed it to his therapist and she's like, oh, thank you. Have a great day. I'm like, OK, OK, cool. And then she and then she had to read it to him in the session and. He said, oh, thank you for doing that. It was really nice. And it made me feel really good. And I'm like, OK, I'm glad. I'm glad. And it's like, I don't want him to feel bad. But at the same time, it's just like, where do you find these people? Like you said, like where? There's no Mexican Craigslist. There's the same places where he found his girlfriends that came into his life. I don't know. Ken: I don't know maybe it's the same places where he found his girlfriends that came into it became his wife. I don't know Wait, has he ever married one of his therapists? I don't even know that seems like a very interesting thing to talk about First my therapist now my wife now we're divorced Only took five times. I'm thinking maybe six six time is the charm. Yeah. Yeah His little wife number five before they split up. She pulls me aside and she's like Lisa what is Lisa: Wait, has he ever married one of his therapists? I don't even know. That seems like a very interesting thing to talk about. First my therapist, now my wife. Now we're divorced. Only took five times. I'm thinking maybe six times is the charm. Yeah, yeah. His wife number five, before they split up, she pulls me aside and she's like, Lisa, what is... Okay. I've asked your dad, he's always misunderstanding me. I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. He has a hard time putting himself in my shoes and other people's shoes. Yep, yep, yep, I know. He's like, why question? Why, why am I wife number five? What, and I was like, what did he tell you? ⁓ he said, it's none of it was his fault. ⁓ And no, and I'm like, yeah, that requires some level of self-awareness. to say look and yeah. Honestly, if you 0 for 5, there's something wrong with you. Ken: That requires some level of self-awareness to say, Yeah. Yeah. Honestly, if you over five, there's something wrong with you. You just don't want to be aware of it or talk about it. But you know there's a problem there. You can't go over five and be like, ⁓ there's nothing wrong with me. Every one could just say it's like, well, maybe your choice of women are bad or maybe you're just horrible and you don't see it. There's got to be something wrong. Lisa: Yeah, just don't want to be aware of it or talk about it, but you know there's a problem Yeah, I think he's not a good very discerning person, you know He's neurodivergent and neurodivergent people are not good at discerning people's intentions he has married or hooked up with, he's also had a lot of girlfriends and some, some nice, some not, and some I'm like, Oh man, they're so fucking rude. Like, you know, like I'm doubtful, I would be whatever, yeah. Ken: And I'm like, Lisa: Anyway, sometimes I just wonder it's like I think she should just be honest about it. It's like, why did you marry her? I was like, well, she was very pretty. That's usually a prerequisite for a lot of people. It's like, wow, pretty, attractive. Let's get married. It's sometimes as simple as that. then you start developing. he would say something like that because he has no filter. Like he with his one ex fiance that he had, he she was let's just say she was not thin, you know. Ken: Man, they're so fucking rude. Like, you know, like I'm doubtful, I mean, whatever, but yeah, anyway. Sometimes I just wonder, it's like, I think that she should just be honest about it. like, well, why did you marry her? It like, well, she was very pretty. That's usually pretty reckless for a lot of people. It's like, wow, pretty attractive. Let's get married. It's sometimes as simple as that. And then you start developing. ⁓ He would say something like that. He has no filter like he with this one ex-fiance that he had he She was let's just say she was not thin mm-hmm Lisa: And I would say, ⁓ so how about such and such? I'm not going to say her name. ⁓ goes, I'm not attracted to her because she's fat. No, what did he say? Because ⁓ fat. But when I look into her big, big brown eyes, I tell her I love her. And I'm like, ⁓ Ken: He goes, I'm not attracted to her because she's fat. No, what do you think? she's fat. But when I look into her big, big brown eyes, I tell her I love her. And I'm like, wow. Lisa: you don't say that. You don't vocalize it if you're not attracted. I mean, she was a cool person. really cool to me and everything. think. ⁓ Ken: you don't say that. You don't vocalize it if you're not attracted. I mean, she was a cool person. She's really cool to me and everything. think. Wait, did he marry her? ⁓ No, they were Lisa: No, they were engaged and then according to him she Ken: engaged. ⁓ And then according to him, she ⁓ broke up with him, but forgot that she had broke up with him because she wanted to some sort of like psychosis or something Yeah, I do episode about that And but then she kept trying to contact him and then they're contacting me to contact him, you know, very like triangulated and I just I Just kind of blocked her. I feel bad cuz I liked her but anyway Lisa: broke up with him but forgot that she had broke up with because she went into some sort of like psychosis or something. ⁓ Yeah, I can see what ⁓ But then she kept trying to contact ⁓ and then contacting me contact him, you know, ⁓ very like triangulated I just, ⁓ I just kind of blocked her. I feel bad because I liked her but anyway I know the look on Ken's face is so funny. What was our topic today again for our ⁓ first episode? a good insight into our background right? you want to get right into the nitty gritty into our background. Yeah if you like that that's how you Lisa's most troubling period. Ken: I know. Look at Ken's face is so funny. Yeah, yeah. What was our topic today again? For our first episode? Gives you some insight? Yeah, it's a good insight into our background, right? If you want to get right into the nitty gritty into our background. Yeah, if you like that, that's not even Lisa's most troubling parent. No. That's only number two. Yeah, he's like the healthy parent. Yeah, well, healthy enough where you can still talk to him, right? Sometimes. Lisa: No, that's only number two. Yeah, he's like the healthy parent, you know ⁓ Sometimes and then there's like a lot of times is like, know, because he's being neurodivergent, you know, he has like his special interests and being like at about their your special ⁓ and that the lack of attunement, Ken: where, Lisa: You know, even from as a child, I remember that like things that came up and you know, that could be another episode of like things that I, as a child, things that happened with him that he was just so miss attuned, things that were like highly inappropriate, but he didn't know, he just didn't know any better because it just that lack of cannot put yourself in your child's shoes, lack of empathy. ⁓ Like a of ⁓ Yeah, of self-awareness. a lot of work sometimes. You can't just, it's not something that you, ⁓ I think. Ken: he just didn't know any better because it just that lack of cannot put yourself in your child's shoes, lack of empathy, like an empathy, like awareness. Yeah, it takes a lot of work sometimes. You can't just it's not something that you I think a lot for a lot of people is just not something you're born with. It's not a skill set. Yeah. So if you're born with that kind of skill set, great. A lot of us have to work about being self aware. And yeah. And you know, you see children, you know, I have a niece and nephew, five year old and a three year old. Lisa: people is just not something you're born with. It's not a skill set. Yeah. So if you're born with that kind of skill set, great. A lot of us have to work about being self-aware. Yeah and you know you see children, you I have a niece and nephew, a five-year-old and a three-year-old and I see you could totally see that lack of empathy where they'll say this happened just a few days ago, well weeks ago, ⁓ well we were at the dinner table and talking about ⁓ my belly is so full and The girl goes, mommy has a big belly. You Ken: And I see, you could totally see that lack of empathy. Where they'll say, this happened just a few days ago, well weeks ago. ⁓ We were at the dinner table and talking about, ⁓ my belly's so full. And the girl goes, mommy has a big belly. You Lisa: and it got really quiet and then she whispered into her. daughter's ear. that's not nice to say. and then you know they say things like that with no filter because they don't you don't develop empathy right until you're like what around five years old. at least a filter at least. Ken: and it got really quiet and then she whispered into her daughter's ear, that's not nice to say. And then, you know, they say things like that with no filter because they don't, you don't develop empathy right until you're like what, around five years old. Well, yeah, or at least a filter at least. Lisa: and if you have a parent who has empathy they can kind of course correct you're like no that's not appropriate. there's certain things that you don't say. say. it's mean. it's mean it's hurtful it's inappropriate but if you don't have a parent who has that they Ken: you're like, that's not appropriate. Well, there's certain things that you don't say that you teach your kids because it's mean. It's mean, it's hurtful, it's inappropriate. But if you don't have a parent who has that, they Lisa: They kind of continue because it's so funny because that five-year-old she reminds me so much of my dad with the lack of filter, Ken: kind of continue. Because it's so funny because that five-year-old, she reminds me so much of my dad ⁓ with lack of filter. Lisa: one time I was driving ⁓ and I'd gained some weight. I'm not gonna lie at that time ⁓ and he grabs my stomach and he pinches it and he goes this like yeah, you've gained weight and I'm like I got then froze I literally froze and I was like so embarrassed and I'm like, ⁓ my god ⁓ Like things like that, you know, just like yes, I get it. I have pimples. I have wrinkles. Well, not really But you I just like you don't have to point it out. Children do that. If you're an adult and you haven't learned that yet, there's something else going on. I think we've aged pretty well. Yeah. It's like, yeah. Ken: pimples, I have wrinkles, well not really. But you know, it's just, you don't have to point it out. Children do that. If you're an adult and you haven't learned that yet, there's something else going on. Yeah, I think we've aged pretty well. Yeah, it's like, yeah, we're older millennials. We just hit, was it 25 part 15? Yeah, we look pretty good for our age. ⁓ A lot of that was not. due to our parents treating us awesome, but you know, we fixed it somehow. Lisa: and with my other parent, my mom, I am no contact with her. ⁓ She's a narcissist, hasn't been, know, like I said, she hasn't diagnosed or anything. ⁓ But it's really obvious. ⁓ Ken: my other parent, my mom, I have no contact with her. ⁓ She's a narcissist, hasn't you like I said, she hasn't diagnosed or anything. ⁓ But it's really obvious. Lisa: Wait, did I mention about my cousin? ⁓ yeah, yeah did. ⁓ my god, ⁓ my cousin was a ⁓ see, when you're no contact a and you get, I think it's very triggering when this is Oprah episode that ⁓ just recently came out ⁓ about what this contact trend. ⁓ I am glad, though, after ⁓ I was like, I'm very curious what other therapists and mental health have to say about this. ⁓ They. ⁓ Ken: see, when no contact with a parent and then you get... I think it's very triggering when ⁓ this is Oprah episode that just came out ⁓ about what this contact trend... ⁓ am so glad though, ⁓ after ⁓ this, I was like, very what other therapists and mental health professionals have to say about this. ⁓ They... ⁓ they had a field Yeah, they tore into it. Lisa: ⁓ they had a field day. I was like, I remember when I saw it, I was like, I texted you, Ken, and I'm like, ⁓ my God, have you seen this? Ken: Shit, I remember when I saw it, I was like, I texted you Ken and I'm like, ⁓ my god, have you seen this? Lisa: Oprah, actually, she there was a long time where she was estranged from her own toxic mother. ⁓ I mean, I don't don't know how much you about Oprah's childhood. Ken: actually she there's a long time where she was estranged from her own ⁓ mother. Yeah mean, I don't I know what you know about her Oprah's childhood ⁓ From bits pieces I knew it wasn't a very a Good childhood where it will cultivate a very good human being like growing up ⁓ like she I think a lot of her ⁓ Lisa: From bits and pieces, I knew it wasn't a very good childhood where it will cultivate a very good human being growing up. I think a lot of her success now is in spite of that, probably. Ken: Success now is in spite of that probably like she worked even harder because of her upbringing So it's it wasn't the best for children to grow up in that kind of environment So I feel like she always wanted to do an episode like this. I'm surprised that Oprah's still doing shows right now. I thought she was just kind of like, ⁓ you know the original Oprah show has ended for many years now So I'm surprised like I remember watching that clip Lisa: Yeah. She worked even harder because of her upbringing. it wasn't the best for children to grow up in that kind of environment. So I feel like she always wanted to do an episode like this. I'm surprised that Oprah's still doing shows right now. I thought she was just kind of like, you know, the original Oprah show has ended for... Many years now. Yeah, it's been gone for a minute. surprised. Like I remember watching that clip with the expert about this apparently this trend. I'm watching it's like it looks like a weirdly done infomercial. There's like some sort of lighting in there and almost like they were trying to sell you something. Not sure what they were trying to sell. Maybe the guy that the guest they had on was trying to sell his viewpoint. Maybe he's releasing a book. Oh, the guy. Yeah, the male therapist because there was a two female one was a Ken: with the expert about this apparently this trend. Emma watching is like, it looks like a weirdly done infomercial. There's like some sort of lighting in there. It almost like they were trying to sell you something. Not sure what they were trying to sell. Maybe the guy that the guest day had on was trying to sell his viewpoint. Maybe he's releasing a book, something like that. Therapist because there was no female one was a bit one was a psychologist. other one was just a therapist Yeah, and then those are psychologists and he was estranged from his daughter for a while. Yeah, and He do you remember what you told me like this dude seems so arrogant yeah, there's some sort of arrogance in there where it's like Yeah, like he I think he knew that he was kind of self-aware but still was not Conceding that he was at fault Lisa: One was a psychologist, the other one was just a therapist. And then there was a psychologist and he was estranged from his daughter for a while. he, do you remember what you told me? You're like, this dude seems so arrogant. Yeah, there's some sort of arrogance in there where it's like, I think he knew that he was kind of self-aware, but still was not. Ken: He didn't want to concede. It's like no, I know this is going on, but I don't want to admit defeat. It's not totally my fault. And he tore into the one lady, the kid, she's like, well I had to go no contact, you know, for my own children and he said, ⁓ Lisa: Conceiting that he was at fault. Mm-hmm. He didn't want to concede. It's like no I know this is going on but I don't want to admit defeat. It's not totally my fault. ⁓ and and he he tore into the one remember the one lady with the kid she's like well I had to go no contact, you know for my own children and He said ⁓ You're just teaching your child that you just run away from your problems. He's something to that to that effect You know I'm paraphrasing and then I think he got corrected by the other Ken: you're just teaching your child that you just run away from your problems. He's something to that effect, know, I'm paraphrasing. And then I think he got corrected by the other, name is Lindsay. She wrote the book, Adult Children of Immature Parents, that I gave you for your birthday actually. And she's like, no, you're also showing them that Lisa: Her name is Lindsay. She wrote the book, Adult Children of Immature Parents, that I gave you for your birthday, actually. And she's like, ⁓ no, you're also showing them that just that if you're being mistreated, you should just stand by and keep being mistreated. Right? That's the thing. It's like someone mistreats you ⁓ and you're Ken: just that if you're being mistreated, you should just stand by and keep being mistreated. Yeah, that's the thing. It's like someone mistreats you and And usually if you tell your kid it's like your friend that's mistreating you, stop being friends with them, And the main problem with someone mistreating you that's in your family, you can't really get rid of them as your friend. Like they're there. Like your mom will always be your mom. Lisa: Usually if you tell your kid it's like your friend that's mistreating you stop being friends with them, right? And the main problem with someone mistreating you that's in your family, you can't really get rid of them as your friend. Like they're there. Like your mom will always be your mom. Ken: That's it's such like a Lisa: That's why it's such like a Ken: kind like internal turmoil. You can't get rid of this person because this person is already part of your family. can't get rid of ⁓ to say like it doesn't trouble someone to even encounter that situation and kind of work it out in therapy or even in their own head. It's just very difficult. It's not an easy thing to do to cut off your parents because there will be people around you that tell you, hey, maybe you should be ⁓ nicer to, you know, mom and Lisa: kind of like internal turmoil. ⁓ You can't get rid of this person because person's already ⁓ part of family. can't get rid of So ⁓ to say like, ⁓ It doesn't trouble someone to even encounter that situation and kind of work it out in therapy or even in their own head. It's just very difficult. It's not an easy thing to do to cut off your parents. Because there will be people around you that tell you, hey, maybe you should be ⁓ nicer to, you know, mom or dad or something like that. Ken: or dad or something like that or even like a sibling. Oh, my favorite is, but she's your mom. But she's your mom. But she's your mom. That's like always the thing. It's funny, mutual friend that we had. Yeah. Let's just call her Crystal. I had this, I having issues with my mom. was like, you need to repair your relationship. She literally sounded like that, that high pitched like baby voice. Yeah. And she would just whine and grown adult whining, which is one of the worst things. You need to repair. Lisa: ⁓ favorite is, but she's your mom. But she's your mom! But she's your mom. It's like always the You need to... It's funny, our mutual friend that we had. Let's just call her Crystal. ⁓ I had this, I having issues with mom, goes, you need to repair your relationship. She literally sounded like that, that high pitched like baby voice. Yeah. And she would just whine, a grown adult whining, which is one of the worst things, know. You need to repair the relationship. It was like that. like. And we've dealt with, I think you've dealt with therapists where they tell you to try to repair the relationship, right? No, no, because. Even even the therapists that weren't good? No, they were just I wouldn't say they were some more Ken: I think you've dealt with therapists where they tell you to try to repair the relationship, right? No, no, because Even even the therapists that weren't good. No They were just I would say they were some more bad. I think they're just inexperienced, Lisa: Bad, I think they're just inexperienced, because you're like, ⁓ i'm on a sliding scale I could somebody who like is just starting out, Ken: know Lisa: and ⁓ they have a ⁓ you know, another red flag it's like ⁓ they're Their schedule is wide open so you can just like, ⁓ Ken: schedule is wide open. So you can just like, Lisa: the book is right away. It's always the good ones. They're all booked up I'm like, okay, and then I you talk to them and they're like ⁓ they just stare at you they nod and they go, okay Okay Alright, and it's really quiet and awkward and you're like, so... Well, it just... It sounds like there'd be some role reversal with you and your mom. Like, yup. Okay. And then it was like literally like that, like so quiet and awkward and like, time to be a good therapist too. As they go on the years, they just, they just realize maybe like the mistakes they were making. Yeah, that's for sure. But also I think the best people are the ones or their survivors. I've noticed they had this wisdom that you don't read about in textbooks. It's because they dealt with it. Yeah. And then they're like, Hey, maybe this will work for this person. you get, you get like a skillset after a while, ⁓ dealing with that personally. Ken: It sounds like there'd be some role reversal with you and your mom. Like, yup. Okay. And then they're like that, like so quiet and awkward. Well, it takes time to be a good therapist too. As they go on the years, they just realize maybe like the mistakes they're making, they're trying to... Yeah, that's for sure. But also I think the best people are the ones, or they're survivors, I've noticed. They have this wisdom that you don't read about in textbooks. It's because they dealt with it and then they're like, hey, maybe this will work for this person. You get like a skill set after a while ⁓ dealing with that personally. It's just something you can't really teach in a textbook. It's something that's lived and it makes for a better therapist, think. A hundred percent. I agree with you. Lisa: Mm-hmm. That it's just something you can't really teach in a textbook. It's something that's lived and it makes for a better therapist I think Mm-hmm a hundred percent. I agree with you Even if the therapist never brings that up to you that they were a survivor I think it I think your empathy builds up that if you mm-hmm become a therapist based on a I want to help people Encounter this thing that I dealt with when I was younger That's it's something if you it's almost like that thing that kind of like that Ken: Even if the therapist never brings that up to you that they were a survivor, think it, I think your empathy builds up that if you become a therapist based on, I want to help people encounter this thing that I dealt with when I was younger. That's something if you, it's almost like that thing that kind of like a interesting, like a like sweet story of a doctor. was like, ⁓ I became a doctor because I wanted to heal. my dad's cancer or something like that and that becomes their mission. ⁓ I think this is even more so even greater because you encountered, you're a survivor and now you're trying to help people that are going through the same situation as you. Hopefully end up even better than you ended up. Like you're a therapist, you're helping people. Maybe someone else would be even reap the benefits of that even better than you have. Lisa: interesting like a like sweet story of a doctor. was like I became a doctor because I wanted to heal my dad's cancer or something like that and that becomes their mission. I think this is even more so even greater because you encountered you're a survivor and now you're trying to help people that are going through the same situation as you hopefully end up even better than you ended up like you're a therapist you're helping people maybe someone else would even reap the benefits Ken: But that, that, that Oprah thing, like I, I, I respect Oprah. I used to watch a lot Oprah when I was a kid, like after school, but it's just like a kind of like a rotating like line of just kind of weird kind of like, I don't even want to call them quacks. It's just, they're very interesting people that have gotten. very popular on Oprah, right? You have Dr. Oz who's gotten popular on Oprah and you what he's doing right now. You got Dr. Phil who was very popular for giving psychology advice, but he's not even, I don't think his degree is in psychology. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm sure he's a doctor, but I'm not sure a doctor in what, but you're going to look it up because credentials. I'm sure he's a doctor because you get to be a doctor of a lot of things. Now, you know, you just pass your Lisa: That Oprah thing like I I respect Oprah I used to watch a lot Oprah when I was a kid like after school But it's just like ⁓ kind of like a rotating like line of just kind of Weird kind of like I don't want to call them quacks. It's just they're very Interesting people that have gotten very popular at Oprah, right? have dr. Oz who's gotten popular? You got dr. Phil very popular for giving psychology advice But he's not even he I don't think his degree is in psychology. It's sports medicine I'm sure he's a doctor, but I'm not sure a doctor in what but I'm gonna look it up. You're gonna look it up his credentials Right. He's a doctor because you get to be a doctor of a lot of things now, you know, you just pass your PhD dissertation and you know Well, according to AI he holds a PhD in clinical psychology from the University of North Texas along with a BA in psychology and MA in experimental psychology Ken: PhD dissertation and you know. Well according to AI, he holds a PhD in clinical psychology from the University of North Texas along with a BA in psychology and MA in experimental psychology. But he's not a medical doctor, MD or psychiatrist. Which is common, yeah. Yeah, I mean people have their issues with him. And Lisa: But he's not a medical doctor, MD, or psychiatrist. is common, yeah. Yeah, I mean people have their issues with him. And, Ken: think a lot of the idea is that like you go on a show and he kind of like a know-it-all. Like I know everything about psychology and I how you should behave and stuff like that you're obviously a he throws a lot of claims out there and now i think that's a lot of it's for ⁓ you know television right so yeah ⁓ so a lot of the stuff is that you know he's kind of like ⁓ yeah he's no nonsense and he just tells you like it is it's like that's not always a good thing you know no nonsense tell it like it is well it's no filter not necessarily a good thing there's certain things that hey maybe you should keep close to your ⁓ Lisa: behave and stuff like that. You're obviously, he throws a lot of claims out there. And I think that's a lot of it's for, you know, television, right? So, Yeah. So a lot of the stuff is that, you know, he's kind of like, oh yeah, he's no nonsense. And he just tells you like it is. It's like, that's not always a good thing. You know, no nonsense, tell it like it is. Well, it's no filter. Not necessarily a good thing. There's certain things that maybe you should keep close to your vest and stuff like that. Ken: like your vest and stuff like that, so. Lisa: So... Yeah, I wonder what he has to say about the no contact quote unquote trend. That is not a trend. I mean, do you remember, okay, growing up, people would say, before we had the language for it, and you say, what happened to so and so? they left home early and they don't... oh they joined the army or something you know as soon as they turned 18 or even 17 they left home early that is a huge sign and they have very limited contact if at all with their families Ken: And when you think about that, oh, we just didn't call it no contact, but it was a form of it. mean, I mean, it's definitely a thing that that's why I kind of don't like the word trend. It gives it a negative connotation that it's like a temporary thing that just sprung out of nowhere. It is not. Lisa: and when you think about that oh we just didn't call it no contact but It was a form of it. mean, I mean, it's definitely a thing that that's why I kind of don't like the word trend. gives it a negative connotation that it's like a temporary thing that just does not know where it does not. That's why I was like, I always kind of equate it with, you know, it's just now it's like in the, you know, social media consciousness now. Ken: That's why I was like, I always kind of equate it with, you know, it's just now it's like in the, you know, social media consciousness now, like, or in this in public, it's in people know about. Well, I think about the thing was like, people sometimes say like, ⁓ why are kids having so much autism now? Or there's so many people on an autism spectrum, because people actually test for it now. Lisa: It's in the zeitgeist. Well, I think about the thing was like people sometimes say like, oh, why are kids having so much autism now? There's so many people on an autism spectrum because people actually test for it now. you know, remember in high school you would have the kid that in trench coat and he plays magic, the gathering. He doesn't talk to anybody unless you bring up something that he's really interested in. Yeah, I was like, oh yeah, that kid that people used to call eccentric, that kid probably had autism. Now he's an adult. You know what I noticed? Ken: So that, so you know, remember in high school you will have the kid that in trench coat and he plays magic, the gathering, and he doesn't talk to anybody unless you, unless you bring up something that he's really interested in. Yeah. I was like, oh yeah, that kid that people used to call eccentric, that kid probably had autism. Now he's an adult. You know what I noticed that in like the boomer generation, a lot of they were not diagnosed. A lot of, and the thing is I'm like, these people have always existed. The only reason the numbers are going up is because people are. Lisa: and like the boomer generation a lot of they were not diagnosed a lot of and the thing is i'm like these people have always existed the only reason the numbers are going up is because people are actually aware enough to be like hey maybe i should get tested or maybe like have an explanation of my behavior right i think with the language if the language is not there you just oh you're just a weirdo or what's word you're a nerd you're this versus like now we know Ken: actually aware enough to be like, hey, maybe I should get tested or maybe like have an explanation of my behavior, right? I think with the language, if the language is not there, you just, oh, you're just a weirdo or what's the word? You're a nerd, you're this versus like, no, we know, you know what, maybe, yeah. Like things have, there's certain things that people talk about. like, oh, why is there such a blow up in this epidemic of this? like, no, it's always happened. These have happened. You just haven't paid attention to it. Lisa: You know what, maybe, yeah, maybe could be on the spectrum. There's certain things that people talk about. like, oh, why is there such a blow up in this epidemic of this? like, no, it's always happened. These have happened. You just haven't paid attention to it. Right. And it's funny because it got me thinking. there was, I remember years ago, we were talking about Abraham Lincoln. Ken: he had an estranged relationship with his Lisa: he had an estranged with his Ken: father. And I guess his father was in, he refused to see his father in his dead deathbed. Lisa: father ⁓ and i his father was he refused to see his father in his dead that's pretty bad ⁓ yeah and i mean he basically is one of those probably left home early uh-huh and you know his dad was so toxic to the point where it's like i can't even see you on your deathbed that level this ⁓ is in the 1800s okay ⁓ Ken: That's pretty bad. Yeah, and I mean, he basically is one of those probably left home early. Uh-huh. And, you know, his dad was so toxic to the point where it's like, can't even see you on your deathbed. That level. This is in the 1800s, okay? So do you have idea what his dad did to him? Or is there any kind of like thing he said about his dad? there's... I don't think he said anything bad, but I think his relationship was like... Lisa: Do you have an idea what his dad did to him? is there any kind of like thing he said about his dad? is that there? I don't think he said anything bad, but I think his relationship was like along the lines of... Let's see. What did he say? So according to this AI, Abraham felt like a slave to his father as his earnings from being hired out to neighbors went to Thomas, his father, fueling resentment. So he basically, his dad exploited him. Ken: So according to this AI, Abraham felt like a slave to his father as his earnings for being hired out to neighbors went to Thomas, his father, fueling resentment. So he basically his dad exploited him. That's interesting they use the terminology slave for Abraham Lincoln. Well, we figured out that's why he was so motivated to end slavery. Lisa: It's interesting they use their terminology slave. Yeah, right? That's why he was so motivated to slavery. Right? Because he knew what it was like. He had that empathy that, oh my God, we've come full circle. We figured this shit out. I was like, okay, so the thing about my dad, it's like I have low contact with my dad. Ken: Because he knew what it was like. He had that empathy. ⁓ my god, we've come full circle. We figured this shit out. I was like, okay, so the thing about my dad, it's like I have low contact with my dad and I really communicate with my dad, but with... ⁓ my mom has pretty bad dementia and I want to see my mom as much as I can, but my dad's always there. So that's why I can't go with no contact with my dad because he's... Mom, he's a gatekeeper for me talking to my mom. ⁓ So a lot of it is like, think Abraham Lincoln probably has the same kind of like dad that I did. Probably like, ⁓ yeah, you know what? ⁓ It's great that you became president, but you know, you're not a king or a pope. It's probably something moving the go post. It's like, ⁓ yeah, you're president. I can't compliment you on that. What's so big about being a president of like a 80 year old country. Ooh, good. It's like, you're not the pope. Lisa: It's great that you became president, but you know, you're not a king or a pope. It's probably something moving the go post. It's like, oh yeah, you're president. I can't compliment you on that. Yeah. What's so big about being a president? Oh, whoopie. Yeah, of an 80 year old country. Oh, good. You're not the pope. It's probably something like that. It's like what's what's bigger than an American president? Royalty and a pope. Right. And now what? Tick tock sensation, probably. Ken: It's probably something like that. It's like what's what's bigger than the American president ⁓ royalty and a pope? Yeah, now what a TikTok sensation probably but yeah, it's that probably never I'm assuming his dad probably just hey you did a good job ⁓ It doesn't sound like it and his dad it says he used corporal punishment including beatings for perceived laziness and disobedience. So basically So you basically exploited your child Lisa: Yeah, it's like that probably never I'm assuming his dad probably just hey you did a good job. It doesn't sound like it and his dad it says he used corporal punishment including beatings for perceived laziness and disobedience. So basically ⁓ So you you basically exploited your child took their money and beat them if they ⁓ yeah Yeah, his dad sounds like a narcissist, you know in my humble opinion Ken: took their money and beat them if they... ⁓ yeah. Yeah, his dad sounds like a narcissist. Well, well, best case scenario, you treat your kid like that and they end up being American president. Yeah. And you know, very famous American president. think everybody just looks at that. was like, ⁓ yeah. Yeah. You know, and it's so interesting because I was like looking back and that's when I kept thinking about Lisa: kid like that and they end up being American president. Yeah. know, very famous American president. think everybody just looks at that. was like, ⁓ yeah. Yeah, you know, and it's so interesting because I was like looking back and that's when I kept thinking about, know, when Bridgette Bordeaux, she passed away pretty recently. Beautiful. I mean, this actress, she was the Margot Robbie of her day. Beautiful. Ken: You know when Bridgette Bordeaux, passed away, wow, pretty recently. ⁓ Beautiful. I mean, this actress, she was the Margot Robbie of her day. Beautiful. And I was reading about her and I was like, don't really know anything about her. I didn't grow up in that era. So I was just reading an article about her life and how she survived by her son, but they're estranged. And I'm like, what? You know, she was in her 80s, I believe, when she passed. Lisa: And I was reading about her and I was like, I didn't really know. I didn't really know anything about her. I didn't grow up in that era. So I just reading an article about her life and she survived by her son, but they're estranged. And I'm like, what? You know, she was in her 80s, I believe, when she passed. ⁓ and then I was kept reading the article. She said some not nice things. She resented her child for making her fat. Yeah, yeah, I think she might have. Welcome to parenthood. Ken: And then I was kept reading the article. She said some not nice things. She resented her child for making her fat. Well, yeah. Welcome to parenthood when you complain about your child for making you fat. Yeah. So gee, I wonder why her son is estranged from her. she did not. Lisa: when you complain about your child for making you fat. Yeah. So gee, I wonder why her son is estranged from her. and she did not, oh, apparently. So in her autobiography in 1997, she's, likened is that the word liken like an ⁓ likening her pregnancy to a quote-unquote tumor and calling Nicholas her son the object of my misfortune ⁓ So That resulted in her son Nicholas and his father suing her for invasion of privacy so ⁓ and she admitted that she rather had given birth to a dog I love that. Ken: suing her for invasion of privacy so... uh huh oh and she admitted that she rather had given birth to a dog well i i i love that because she likened a kid to a cancer growth well which is technically kind of kind of true you are giving birth to like a cell cluster of cells that are replicated so is that you know how like some people say oh yeah the miracle of birth was like the miracle of cancerous baby. I don't think anybody ever said it like that. Can you imagine if someone was like, well, I got cancer in my belly. Oh no, you should get that. that. Check that out. was like, oh no, she's just pregnant. She's just pregnant. mean, it happens, right? Yeah, how unfortunate, you know, childbirth and you know, you know. Wow, she was quite a mommy dearest. You to call your kid a cancer. But the other thing is, is there is like this, Lisa: Because she likened the kid to a cancer. Which is technically kind of true. You're giving birth to a cell cluster of cells that are replicating. So you know how like some people say, oh yeah, the miracle of birth was like the miracle of cancerous baby. I don't think anybody ever said it like that. Can imagine if someone was like, well, I got a cancer in my belly. Oh no, you should get that checked out. Checked out was like, oh no, she's just pregnant. She's just pregnant. I mean, it happens, right? Wow, she was quite a mommy dearest Ken: I remember my parents, there's like this old kind of Chinese saying that they would just be like, hey, if you're mad at your kid, you'll be like, I'd rather have like ⁓ gave birth to like a piece of food so I can at least eat it. And this is like a strange thing that people said for years. don't know. Maybe in another episode I could translate it lot better, but that's pretty much what it is. That's saying your kid's kind of like has no utility to you, that you can't even eat your kid. Lisa: utility to you that you can't even eat your kid well some people probably might try to eat their kid at the plus ⁓ yeah they the placentus don't they or the foreskin baby foreskin well they use it as cream it's like yeah you know what saying right it's like yeah it's like ⁓ yeah you get mad at your kid it's like well you're you're less than a piece of food to me because at least i could eat the piece of food and i think a lot of parents just say that to their kids it's like what a horrible thing to say your kid and a lot of it's just cultural right you say that to your kid Ken: Some people probably might try to eat their kid, but that was the thing. ⁓ yeah. They eat the placentas, don't they? Or the foreskin? Well, they use it as cream. It's like... Yeah, but you know what I'm saying, right? It's like, it's like, it's like, ⁓ yeah, you get mad at your kid. like, well, you're you're less than a piece of food to me because at least I could eat the piece of food. And I think a lot of parents just say that to their kids. It's like, what a horrible thing to say to your kid. A lot of it's just cultural, right? You say that to your kid. ⁓ Lisa: and it's, why it's a lot of it is like how do you determine if it's just your parents is just toxic and then you're or if your parents is just ethnic like Ken: And that's why a lot of it is like, how do you determine if it's just your parents is just toxic and then your or if your parents is just ethnic? ⁓ Well, I know I've spoken to Lisa about this is like, ⁓ yeah, Latino parents, just just how they are maybe, right? Or Asian parents just as how they are. That's how they raise it. Not just, you know, talking to people like Indian backgrounds. it's like, wow, it's just I think they've internalized so much of the. Lisa: Well, I know I spoke into Lisa about this is like, ⁓ yeah, Latino parents. That's just how they are maybe. Right. Lisa's That's just how they are. That's how they There seems to be a common thread with not just, you know, talking to people like Indian backgrounds. And it's like, wow, you're it's just I think they've internalized so much of the this patriarchal. Dr. Romney talks about this, you know, and on a macro level, how narcissism got created. Is it place societies that are very patriarchal, very stratified, socially stratified? was like, oh, thinking about it. And I thought, yeah, you know, definitely Latin America. That's why you see so much narcissism in Asia. I don't know. You know, there's no studies, unfortunately, that they that we know the rate of it, but just anecdotally for me. Yeah, that's totally it's like we see it, but that doesn't necessarily cause. Ken: the rate of it, just anecdotally for me. Yeah, anecdotally, it's like we see it, but that doesn't necessarily cause like a particular ethnic group to be more narcissistic than another. feel like it's it occurs in all ethnic groups, all cultural backgrounds. Especially there, there's like a history of this long trauma, you know, very, Lisa: like a particular ethnic group to be more narcissistic than another. feel like it's it occurs in all ethnic groups, all cultural backgrounds. Especially there, there's like a history of this long trauma. You know, very, it creates narcissism. If you create an environment where everyone's a crab in a bucket. it's going to you're going to develop those kind of I need to do what I need to do to get ahead and I have to basically tamper tap down my my empathy, Ken: Basically suppress my own Lisa: basically suppress my own empathy to get ahead, and unfortunately that that has created narcissism. Ken: And I do wanna bring up another one we're talking about celebrities. Lisa: And I do want to bring up another one since we're talking about celebrities. another ⁓ celebrity, Hulk Hogan. He passed away last year. Ken: He passed away last year. Rest in peace. Lisa: his daughter were both estranged when he passed. I didn't know this. know Brooke Hogan, I remember she had this one banger back in the day. I think it about us. I think it was that one song. think it was of the songs. Oh, The Father Knows Best or Hope Knows Best or something? Ken: He and his daughter were both estranged when passed. I didn't know this. ⁓ know, ⁓ Brooke Hogan, I remember she had one back in the day. Yeah, I she became like a pop star and then she actually had a, she also had a reality show that spun off from the main show. ⁓ The Father Knows Best? I think it was like, Brooke Knows Best was like ⁓ the, the offshoot of the Hogan's Knows Best. ⁓ she had her own show. I didn't know that. Lisa: ⁓ she had her own show I didn't know that but yeah, I mean she had that really good song. Yeah, but I guess things deteriorated ⁓ Weren't you telling me that ⁓ I guess that there's an ⁓ shoot. There's an audio recording that what got leaked. ⁓ Racial slurs towards his daughter's ex-boyfriend. So she was dating a black dude. Yes, he was Ken: She was definitely the most popular member on there other than Hulk. yeah, I mean, she had that really good song. Yeah. But I guess things deteriorated. ⁓ Weren't you telling me that? ⁓ I guess that there's an ⁓ shoot, there's an audio recording that got leaked. Well, yeah. ⁓ about like a slurs towards his daughter's ex boyfriend. So she was the black dude. Yes. He was apparently not very. ⁓ Lisa: Apparently not very, a little racist. You're talking about Hokogen? Yeah. A lot of it was, yeah, I remember this becoming a big deal. Even so, he actually went back to WWE. I think they revoked his status as a legend there, and he had to give a seminar to the people that worked there. Ken: I'm little racist. You're talking about Hulk Hogan? Yeah. And a lot of it was that, yeah, I remember this becoming a big deal. ⁓ Even so, he actually went back to WWE. I think they revoked his status as a legend there and he had to give a seminar to the people that worked there, a lot of black wrestlers that he had to talk to. ⁓ he didn't want to get canceled, right. Lisa: wrestlers that he had to talk to. ⁓ he didn't want to get canceled, right? Well, for him getting canceled at that time was pretty much a paycheck, right? It's like he had to explain himself. Well, I don't think their relationship ever reconciled after that. Like she... Ken: Well, for him getting canceled at that time was pretty much a paycheck, right? It's like he had to explain himself. Well, I don't think their relationship ever reconciled after that. she's I think she's happily married now and they still haven't talked. Like he passed away. I don't even think she was invited to the funeral. That's how bad it was. That's right. Yes. So there was like an article on People Lisa: She's I think she's happily married now and they they still haven't talked like he passed away. I don't even think she was invited to the funeral. That's how bad it was. That's right. Yes. So there was like ⁓ an article on People magazine and I guess they were interviewing her husband ⁓ and he basically said he Ken: And guess they were interviewing her husband and he basically said he did not, ⁓ he had no interest meeting their twins. They had twin babies. ⁓ guess, ⁓ so according to him, they tried to reach out many ⁓ you so the children could have a relationship with Hulk. Lisa: did not ⁓ he had no interest in meeting their twins. They had twin babies and I guess, according to him, they tried to reach out many times, you know, so her, children can have a relationship with Hulk. he wasn't receptive ⁓ and that was one of another reason for estrangement. So I don't think she was being an ungrateful little shit. ⁓ you know, people say. quite a career on her dad's name. I think she knows that. That's ⁓ much. Ken: So I don't think she was being a grateful little shit like, you know, I think she's made quite a career on her dad's name. I think she knows that that that pretty much propelled her into at least relevancy a little bit of relevancy. I wouldn't say it's like a Neppo baby kind of situation, but it kind of was. It's like, yeah, well, the reason why you're you have a reality show and the singing career was because your dad's hokkogen. So she's a Neppo baby. But at the end of the day, Lisa: propelled her into at least relevancy, a little bit of relevancy. I wouldn't say it's like a Neppo baby kind of situation, but it kind of was. I mean, well, for her singing career, for a teenager to get a... The reason why you have a reality show and a singing... Yeah, I mean she's a nipple baby, but at the end of the day, he was toxic. Yeah, I don't know her personally. I just know as much as news. Ken: was toxic. Yeah, I don't I don't know her personally. I just know as much as news comes out. Yeah, people calling ungrateful. It's like, oh, he probably gave he gave her a singing career as a teenager. He gave her this. Yeah. And the thing about the ungratefulness, I was like, that's usually the kind of like what they like people like family members or people around your estrangement would just say, oh, yeah, you're ungrateful. Lisa: But I know people calling him ungrateful. It's like, he probably gave he gave her a singing career as a teenager. He gave her this. Yeah. And the thing about the ungratefulness, was like, that's usually the kind of like what they like people like family members or people around your estrangement would just say, ⁓ yeah, you're ungrateful. I know. Your parents. It's so weaponized against people. this quote that Dr. Romani talks about. Like, she's like, just because your parents raised you, closed you. Ken: for your parents raising you. so weaponized. Well, I always think about this quote that Dr. Romani talks about. She's like, just because your parents raised you, clothed you, fed you. that they're a good parent. They did the bare minimum. Like if they didn't do that, they'd probably be arrested and you'd probably be put in a foster home, right? Yeah, slave owners did that. Yeah, yeah, slave owners did that. It was like, ⁓ yeah, you have a pet, you feed your pet, you maybe clothe your pet sometimes. And it's like, ⁓ yeah, you take your pet to the doctor. Congratulations, you're a pet owner. Congratulations, you're bare minimum parent. It's like, it takes a lot more to be a good parent, to have a good relationship with your kid. And there are people around that would be Lisa: fed you that they're a good parent. They did the bare minimum. Like if they didn't do that they'd probably be arrested and you'd probably be put in a foster home, right? Yeah, mean slave owners did that. They gave free movement board. You feed your pet, you maybe clothe your pet sometimes. It's like, oh yeah, you took your pet to the doctor. Ken: There are people that are in the periphery that will see the situation and chime in. Well, you're being Lisa: Yeah, there's so many enablers of toxic people. tell you about my situation. ⁓ Ken: Yeah, there's so many enablers. Well, this is yeah, I tell you about my situation like my sister at times would tell me that I'm ungrateful towards my parents and she has a terrible relationship with my parents. Like she's she's she does not get along with my dad at all. They pretty much just are at odds with each other. But then she's telling me that I was like, go check your own problems first at the door. Right. but yeah, it's, it's a lot of it. They tell you that, but it's like, okay. Do you actually look at the details or just something that you just want to say? Because this is just what it should be. Right. You should always be like nice and respect your elders and stuff like that. was like, what if your elders is like a psychopath or something like that? Lisa: But then she's telling me that I was like, you'll check your own problems first at the door. Right. ⁓ But yeah, it's a lot of it. They tell you that. But it's like, OK. Do you actually look at the details or just something that you just want to say, because this is just what it should be. Right. You should always be like nice and respect your elders and stuff like that. One of your elders is like a psychopath or something. Yeah. You know, when people say that, like respect your elders blindly, I say I think respect is should be earned and not an entitlement and that shuts people up quick. Oh the entitlement is what gets to me. Because you're an elder because you're my parent they show you that kind of respect. No I could respect my dad to a certain degree it's a I see him once a week and it literally Ken: I you know people say that like respect your elders blindly I say I think respect is should be earned and not entitlement and that shuts people up. ⁓ the entitlement is what gets to me ⁓ because you're elder because you're my parent I have to show you that kind of respect. No I could respect my dad to a certain degree it's a I see him once a week and Literally is like someone that's torturing me for like two hours during our lunch times know I think it takes you like a whole day just to like decompress like that's how bad it is. you'll send me texts Saying ⁓ just saw my dad and I could tell how miserable you're it's just like a sad face sad face. So sad emoji You know, I just I'm I feel very fortunate that I had the luxury of going no contact. Mm-hmm that's and I'm very cognizant that like Lisa: is like someone that's torturing me for like two hours during our lunch times. I know. I think it takes you like a whole day just to like decompress. I know. You'll send me texts saying, ⁓ I just saw my dad and I could tell how miserable you are. It's just like a sad face. Sad face. A sad emoji. You know, I just I'm I feel very fortunate that I had the luxury of going no contact. That's ⁓ and I'm very cognizant that like Not everybody's. Everybody's situation is so different, But if it ever came Ken: like where I had to have contact with her again, I think I'd be like, no, I'll just sleep in my car. Yeah. So what what brought about your no contact with your mom? Well, I'll see that for another episode because it's so long. But, Lisa: like where I had to have contact with her again, I think I'd be like, no, I'll just sleep in my car. Yeah. So what brought about your known contact with her mom? Well, I'll say that for another episode because it's so long. But, know, we've gone on 45 minutes. Yeah, I know. But. I'll save that for another episode. Yeah, tune in for our next episode. We have more. We have a lot. We have lots of stuff to talk about. Oh my god, we have way too much. Yeah, but the no contact thing. I remember seeing that on Oprah when you sent it to me. Ken: I'll actually ask you that for another episode. Yeah, it's like, tune in for the next episode. Hopefully we have more. Hopefully a lot. Well, I think we have lots of stuff to talk about. ⁓ my god, we have way too much. Yeah, but the no contact thing, I remember seeing that on Oprah when you sent it to me. was like, first of all, not a trend, because you think trends go away, right? Was it trendy when she did it with their own mom? Lisa: First of all, not a trend, because you think trends go away, Really? Was it trendy when she did it with her mom? Yeah, no. I don't think she could. I don't think she considers it no contact. I think it's like a derogatory term now about things that people actually see are happening. Right. If you call something a trend, that means, oh, yeah, it just came out of nowhere and it's temporary. Yeah, it's a Stanley Cup. Yeah. And I think people, disclaimer, people that are fans of Stanley, like cups, they've been around for like 100 years. So it's just, you know, like people just didn't buy it like they did. was like, oh, line up for Stanley cups. Yeah. Maybe like. Ken: Yeah, I think she considers it no contact I think it's like a derogatory term now about things that people actually see are happening, right? If you call something a trend, that means, oh yeah, it just came out of nowhere and it's temporary. Yeah, it's a Stanley Cup. It's like a... And I think people, disclaimer, people that are fans of Stanley Cups, they've been around for like hundred years. So it's just, you know, like people just didn't buy it like they did. It was like, oh, line up for Stanley Cups. Maybe like a Labooboo or something like that and Labooboo was starting to lose popularity at the moment, but you know, that's that's a trend because This was through the beginning of time ever since there are humans raising their young as their children there was a situation where someone probably goes no contact with their parents Lisa: like a Labubu or something like that. Labubu was starting to lose popularity at the moment, but you know, that's a trend. Because this was through the beginning of time. Ever since there are humans raising their young as their children, there was a situation where someone probably goes no contact with their Ken: You know if biblical things kill your parent ⁓ Lisa: Or, know, ⁓ biblical things kill your ⁓ Or they'll bring your children to wrath. ⁓ yeah. ⁓ Ken: I mean, it's a thing. To call it a trend is kind of derogatory. It's kind of to lessen the actual idea, I think. To call it a trend is like, ⁓ yeah, like a TikTok trend, like a TikTok dance. It's not a trend. And to say it as such is kind of it's mean. It's discounting our experiences with... reason why we go into no contact with our parents. It's very dismissive and you know, like that, have you seen that TikToks from the, that doormat mom? The doormat mom is someone that really hurts my feelings. Like it hurts my brain. I'm like, I can't believe someone like that. Just someone that parades herself as out there is like, my kids are a Satan spawn. Yeah. If you say that, that means you're a Satan. You gave birth to Satan spawn. Lisa: I mean, it's a thing. To call it like a trend is kind of derogatory. It's kind of to lessen the actual idea, I think. To call it a trend, like, ⁓ yeah, like a TikTok trend, like a TikTok dance. It's not a trend. And to say it as such is kind of like, it's mean. It's discounting our experiences with reason why we go into no contact with our parents. It's very dismissive. you know, like that, have you seen the TikToks from that doormat mom? The doormat mom is someone that really hurts my feelings. Like, it hurts my brain. like, I can't believe someone like that just... Someone that parades herself as out there is like, my kids are a Satan spawn. Yeah. If you say that, that means you're Satan. You gave birth to Satan's spawn. Ken: What I see there is you probably agree with this someone that's not accountable for her own behavior and just blames their kid for the kid not talking to them anymore It's either that or she has self-awareness and she's using this to advertise herself She knows she has a following so she puts up this persona even if it's not true to Lisa: What I see there is, you probably agree with this, someone that's not accountable for her own behavior and just blames their kid for That lady, she has no self-awareness. It's either that or she has self-awareness and she's using this I knows just enough to like, yeah, and she has a following, that's crazy. She she has a following so she puts up this persona, even if it's not true to the... Ken: The most dangerous part is not that she's like that. It's she's breeding an entire generation of people that are okay with this behavior I'm a parent. My kid doesn't respect me. They treat me as a doormat. I did my best as a parent There's nothing wrong with me. It's something wrong with my kids I think the fact that her other children do talk to her but I think it's her daughter who went no contact and I'm guessing because she gives very like Lisa: The most dangerous part is not that she's like that. She's breeding an entire generation of people that are okay with this behavior. I'm a parent. My kid doesn't respect me. They treat me as a doormat. I did my best as a parent. There's nothing wrong with me. There's something wrong with my kids. I think the fact that her other children do talk to her, but I think it's her daughter who went no contact. And I'm guessing because she gives very like Ken: narcissist vibes Lisa: covert narcissist vibes. ⁓ Ken: Yeah, and it's something that we'll discuss in the future episode about narcissism and how the structure of like a narcissism like kind of like Family dynamic it's like they're not necessarily attacking one of the all of them at the same time yeah, and even Lisa: Family dynamic family dynamic. It's like they're not necessarily attacking one of all of them at the same time yeah, and even dr. Matei He was saying no two children grew up in the same home because Ken: Gerber Matei. He was saying no children grow up in the same home because Lisa: are Ken: are Lisa: than others like my brother was the golden child ⁓ might you know? Yeah, the thing about ⁓ door Ken: better than others. Like my brother was the golden child. Yeah, golden child and then, know, scapegoat and stuff like that. It's something that we could touch upon in a future episode. Yeah, the thing about Dormant Mambo. ⁓ my God. And The Wall Street Journal wrote that article about her. Lisa: ⁓ my god. The Wall Street Journal wrote that article about her. I wish I could send it to you, but it was behind a paywall. But it's weird because when I first read it, it wasn't behind a paywall. then they figured, ⁓ this is... Street Journal is always behind a paywall. How was I able to... Time, yeah. How was, I don't know, how was I able to read it without the paywall? But I don't know. Ken: Oh, I wish could send it you, but it was behind a paywall. But maybe because when I first read it, it wasn't behind a paywall. then they figured out. I Wall Street Journal is always behind a paywall, like throughout their entire lifetime. Yeah. How was I don't know how I was able to read it without the paywall. But I don't know. Maybe it was a bootleg site. I don't know. I don't know. Occasionally, like someone they'll get reposted somewhere else on another website like MSN or something like that or Yahoo. And you get the full article is like, hey, didn't have to pay. But yeah, yeah. But yeah, the. Lisa: Maybe it was a bootleg site. don't know. don't know. Occasionally, like someone that will get reposted somewhere else on another website like MSN or something like that or Yahoo. And you get full article. like, hey, I didn't have to pay. Yeah. But yeah, the Dormant mom, like she's definitely made a career out of it, right? Like she's had a look. ⁓ the one that she released on her daughter the same day as her daughter's wedding? Yeah. If you're a listener and you don't see the problem with that, just like that sounds like spiteful behavior in my opinion. Ken: The dormant mom, like she's definitely made a career out of it, right? Like she's had a book. The one that she released on her daughter the same day as her daughter's wedding? Yeah, if you're a listener and you don't see the problem with that, just like that sounds like spiteful behavior in my opinion. That is petty. Petty. It's cruel. And you're trying to overshadow. It means she competes with her own daughter. Who does that? ⁓ narcissists do. Huh. Lisa: That is petty. That is cruel. And you're trying to overshadow. It means she competes with her own daughter. Who does that? ⁓ narcissists do. Narcissistic moms see their daughters as competition and... I see right through her. And a lot of people do. Thankfully, lot of people do. Unfortunately, a lot don't. And you can read the comments. It's like half is Wow, I can no wonder your kids your daughter doesn't talk to you and the other half are like you are an inspiration You are an angel sent from heaven the person the people that say that she's an inspiration They have they have those trouble with their kids. ⁓ yeah, they need that validation like it was me I was the greatest parent. Here's the thing about social media Ken: You are an inspiration. You are an angel sent from heaven. people that say that she's an inspiration, have those trouble with their kids. Yeah, they need that validation. They need the validation. I was the greatest parent. Here's the thing about social media. You either get mad at what someone says on social media or someone just confirms your beliefs. And that's a very dangerous thing, kind of like place to be at. There's only one or two sometimes. Lisa: You're either getting mad at what someone says on social media or someone just confirms your beliefs. And that's a very dangerous thing, kind of like place to be at. It's only one or two sometimes. You're so right. And that's why you see a lot of polarization. Yeah. And sometimes it's not just black and white. Like there's like situation where it's Lisa where she's totally no contact. And for me, I can't do that. My mom has very bad dementia. I don't think she has much time left. So I want to spend as much time as her as I can. Ken: You're so right and that's why you see that a lot of polarization. Yeah, yeah. And sometimes it's just black and white. Like there's like situation where it's Lisa where she's totally no contact and for me, I can't do that. My mom has very bad dementia. I don't think she has much time left. So I want to spend as much time with her as I can. It's just my dad sandwiches himself in there. So that's just how the situation is now. Yeah. I remember when you were telling me about your dad, was like, he sounds like Lisa: It's just my dad sandwiches himself in there. So that's just how the situation is now. Yeah, I remember when you were telling me about your dad. was like, he sounds like a covert narcissist and you said, oh, no, no, no, he doesn't love himself. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Oh boy. You're about to learn a whole new vocabulary. And yeah, I introduced you to Dr. Romany and I sent you Things Your Way. I got you Dr. Romany's book. Ken: you know, and other information. And you're like, oh my God. I remember you put an Instagram post on a story saying, this is exactly my dad. Thank you, Lisa for, and I was like. Lisa: You know, in information and you're like oh my god I remember you put an Instagram post on a story saying this is exactly my dad thank you Lisa for da da da da da for and I was like yeah I'm really good at clocking people well it's like for a time like before you me that book I like I thought I was going crazy I was like why am I so mean to my parents or was it like my dad or something like that and then you know that book us talking about it and therapy is like oh I'm in this situation there was a time where I thought I was the black sh** Ken: Yeah, I'm pretty good at clocking people. Well, it's like for a time, like before you gave me that book, I was like, thought I was going crazy. I was like, why am I so mean to my parents or is like my dad or something like that? And then, you know, that book, us talking about it and therapy is like, oh, I'm I'm in this situation. There was a time where I thought I was the black sheep. And then I started asking people around me that was looking at that situation from afar. And then I figured out, oh, I'm actually pretty normal. My dad's very weird. and it's showing to other people. Yeah, because I thought I was weird. have like earrings and stuff like that. I used to have like bleach blonde hair and stuff like that, baggy pants. And then my dad just hated that. And then it was just like my teenage rebellion. And then after a while, I thought like into my 20s, into my 30s, oh, I'm still a rebel. Until I went to like therapy, it's like, oh, my dad really created this. Lisa: And then I started asking people around me that was looking at that situation from afar. And then I figured out, I'm actually pretty normal. My dad's very weird. And it's showing to other people. Yeah, because I thought I was weird. I have like earrings and stuff like that. I used to have like bleached blonde hair and stuff like that. Ken: Like I'm just a contrarian because of how he treated me. And the thing is, well, the thing is my dad is definitely not a terrible parent in my opinion. he, he tries. That's why it is such so hard for me to grasp that he has some narcissistic tendencies. Then I was like, honestly, when I talked to my dad, he doesn't really listen to me. I give him advice, tell him to do things. He doesn't really listen to me, but he gets in trouble though. First person he calls. Lisa: pants. And then my dad just hated that. And then it was just like my teenage rebellion. And then after a while, I thought like into my 20s into my 30s, I'm still a rebel until I went to like therapy is like, ⁓ my dad really created this. Like I'm just a contrarian because of how he treated me. And that's a way of rebelling. Well, the thing is, my dad is definitely not a terrible parent. my opinion, like he, he tries. That's why it's So that's so frustrating. ⁓ Ken: So there's something there, Yeah. And if I say contrary, he does this thing where he's, he says this very key line that really gets me every single time either makes me like guilty or just plain upset. It's like, well, who else am I going to call your family? Lisa: And if I say contrary, he does this thing where he's he says this very key line that really gets me every single time either makes me like guilty or just plain upset. It's like, well, who else am I going to call your family? Ken: I'm like, in my it's like, you don't treat family like that. Sometimes you don't Lisa: I'm like, in my opinion, it's like you don't treat family like that sometimes. don't Ken: pretty much use them like a punching bag. was like, ⁓ It's gone to a point where it's so bad that when my dad compliments me, I think he's being sarcastic. It's been there. It's like, compliment. What kind of game are you playing here? Yeah, how much money do you need? No, because I remember you ever watch that 70's show and like Eric, the main guy has this relationship with his dad, Red. And he had, for some reason they started working at the like kind of like their Walmart. And like Eric was just really good at his job and his dad like. Lisa: It's gone to a point where it's so bad that when my dad compliments me, I think he's being sarcastic. It's been there. It's like, compliment. What do want from me? What kind of game are you playing? Yeah, yeah, yeah. How much money do you need? Because I remember you ever watch that 70's show and like Eric, the main guy has this relationship was Dad Red. Yeah. And he had for some reason they started working at the like kind of like their Walmart. And like Eric was just really good at his job and his dad like, well, it's like he's like the superior is like, good job. And he's like, serious like, what are you trying to play here? Because like Red's very hard on him. Yes. Complimenting him. Ken: Well, he's like the superior, like, good job. And he's like, Sarah's like, what are you trying to play here? Because like Red's very hard on him. So him complimenting him just like threw him off. Like he was like, why are you saying this? Are you actually proud of me? And the dad's like, I'm not proud of you. I wish my dad was kind of like that. think deep down inside, he's proud of me a little bit, or at least okay, fine with me being like a functioning adult. But sometimes he just, there have been times where me and my dad drive to lunch. and he just talks for like 20 minutes straight without me saying anything. I was like, oh my God, and you know me, I love talking. I was like, I can't stand it. He just won't stop talking about things that I don't care about. Lisa: So do have like okay I have to this up. So you said your mom's her time is ⁓ you know you're you know it's pretty limited on earth. ⁓ Let's say she she passes away hypothetically and your still alive. Are you still gonna have a relationship with him? Do you still plan on that or do you like ⁓ let you answer. I think I will Ken: I'll let you answer. I think I will, ⁓ but a lot of it's not because, ⁓ I think for me it's just the guilt's still there. ⁓ I ⁓ don't think my dad's a ⁓ malignant narcissist. He's not. I think he's aware of his behavior. at times he, ⁓ cause I remember Lisa: remember my childhood. ⁓ That's the struggle that lot of people have with going into with their parents. ⁓ It's something that you up with and then you look and you try not to be too biased because it's easy to be like, it's all their fault. ⁓ They did this to me. ⁓ But then it's not that... A lot of times it's not that easy. ⁓ It's lot of it's like, well, my dad never showed up to any of my award ceremonies. Ken: my childhood, ⁓ that's the struggle that a lot of have with going on contact their parents. ⁓ It's something that you grow up with and then you look and you try not to be too biased because it's very easy to be like, it's all their fault. They did this to me. But then it's not that, a lot of the times it's not that easy. It's a lot of it's like, well, my dad never showed up to any of my award ceremonies, ⁓ recitals, anything like that. But then my dad would like, you know, do something really nice. And it's like, it's kind of like what a narcissist would do. ⁓ They'll be mean to you and love bomb you. And I just had a relationship like that. ⁓ cause I still remember as a when he, ⁓ my dad, would work a night and then ⁓ every night without fail, I will up when he gives me like a, like a kiss on the forehead. Like he did that every night for like my whole like. Lisa: you know, he'll do something nice. And like, it's kind of what a narcissist would do. ⁓ They'll ⁓ be mean to you and then love bomb you. And I had relationship like that. ⁓ Ken: time I was like a teenager from young to like teenager. So that's why I try not to be very mad at my dad. was like a lot of my minimal contact with my dad, it's for my personal well-being. Lisa: Cause I still remember as a child, when he, my dad would work a night shift and then every night we'll file fail. will wake up when he gives me like a, like a kiss on the forehead. Like he did that every night for like my whole like time. was like a teenager from young to like teenager. So that's why I try not to be very mad at my dad. was like a lot of my minimal contact with my dad. It's, it's for my personal. Yeah. Ken: As my dad got older, his behavior has worse. So, ⁓ but I try to ⁓ be totally like angry at him and you know, just vitriol at him. Because there are moments of very nice like sweet moments and I try to factor that in For some other people I'm not sure for you Lisa. It's like it's no good moments in there a lot of it's very minimal It's not worth it to think about those moments and be like, let's let's still have a relationship very on the surface level It's not even good to have that Well, you know when someone You know Lisa: the surface level. It's not even good to have that. Well, you when someone, you know, and it's so complicated because when someone is so toxic but there are like those intermittent moments of like niceness. Yeah, it's that lumbar. Ken: And it's so complicated because when someone is so toxic, but there are like those intermittent moments of like, niceness. Yeah, it's that love bombing. Wait, you know, you were talking about your dad would kiss your forehead. You know, when sometimes when my mom would put us to bed, my brother, she would like rub our backs and give us like a little back massage and it felt really good. And I was like, ⁓ wow. You know, is it that so but it's intermittent. It's Lisa: Wait, it's like, know, you were talking about your dad would kiss your forehead, you know, when ⁓ sometimes when my mom would put us to bed, my brother, she would like rub our backs and give us like a little back massage and it felt really good. And I'm gonna and I was like, ⁓ wow, you know, that so but it's intermittent. It's not consistent and she's done a lot of really really horrible things, you know, to the point where it's like takes no accountability. and doesn't feel any remorse. You know, and those are two huge things. And that's why a lot of the family doesn't talk to her. You know, I have a cousin who's getting married in Mexico next month. She's not invited. And every time she, you know, she's in Mexico City, she's there's always drama. I'm like, what does she do now? Oh, she slashed up my uncle's painting. Like, like literally that size. It's just. Ken: You know, and those are two huge things and that's why a lot of the family doesn't talk to her You know, I have a cousin who's getting married in Mexico next month. She's not invited And every time she you know, she's in Mexico City She's there's always drama. What does she do now? ⁓ she slashed out my uncle's painting like like literally that's yeah I remember you told me that I was just like that's that's so messed up it's just Lisa: It's just so vindictive. And once she perceives a person to be her enemy, she will go all out to destroy them. Like super, super vindictive. Ken: perceives a person to be her enemy, she will go all out to destroy them. Like super, super vindictive. Lisa: ⁓ to be around that toxicity, to me, it's just my life is so much more peaceful. ⁓ I would to have a relationship that was normal ⁓ and healthy. And I know come to, I just have accepted. That's never going to happen. It'll never be a healthy relationship. And a lot of that is you go to therapy for that kind of... Ken: to me, it's just, my life is just so much more peaceful. You know, I would love to have a relationship that was normal and healthy. And I know I've come to, you know, I just have accepted that that's never going to happen. It'll never be a healthy relationship. And a lot of that is you go to therapy for that kind of working on that because you're, think by default will be like, I'm going to try to make a relationship and your therapist is like, just make sure you know that you're not going be able to change your parents behavior. So you keep that in mind. So what you do with this information, and I feel like good therapists will give you that, that choice. Doesn't have to be totally like you know, I swear off my parents or I try to make a relationship with my parents No, it's you really your point. What's whatever? Whatever helps you function as a regular human being Yeah Yeah, they I totally thank you for that Ken and with that in mind Lisa: Yeah. I totally thank you for that, Ken. And with that in mind, that's the end of this episode and stay tuned for the next episode. Hopefully it'll drop soon. And we have a lot to talk about. It might last for hundreds of episodes. Yeah, we probably make enough. could hope that we could do that. Yes. So share this. Ken: That's the end of this episode and stay tuned for the next episode Hopefully it'll drop soon and we have a lot to talk about it might last for Hundreds of episodes who knows one could only hope that we could do that. So So share this, you know, I don't know how people share this but Tell your friends about it Yeah, hopefully people can find solace in this you know feel so alone. I think that's Lisa: but yeah, your friends about it. Yeah, people can find solace in this and not feel so alone. think Ken: And honestly, recording this is kind of like our therapy session. Yeah, it's our therapy session. All right, guys. Thank you so much for listening. Lisa: like the part of it's ⁓ therapy session. ⁓ Yeah. ⁓ All right, guys. Thank you so much for next time. Bye. ⁓ Ken: next Bye. Bye.