Latest / Cardinal Territory: A St. Louis Cardinals Podcast / 2025 Cardinals Prospect Preview with Baseball America

Transcript

2025 Cardinals Prospect Preview with Baseball America · Cardinal Territory: A St. Louis Cardinals Podcast

0:05
Speaker 1: Hello, good morning. If you are watching as we drop
0:08
Speaker 1: this like the true loyal fan that you are, welcome
0:10
Speaker 1: back to Cardinal territory. I'm Katie Wu. We have a
0:13
Speaker 1: really exciting episode today. We have a twenty twenty five
0:17
Speaker 1: prospect preview. JJ Cooper, the editor of Baseball America, is
0:20
Speaker 1: my guest today. Super excited to have you, Jj, and
0:23
Speaker 1: we are going to talk about the newly dropped prospect
0:26
Speaker 1: rankings and baseball specifically Cardinals. JJ. How are you good?
0:30
Speaker 2: How are you doing, Katy?
0:31
Speaker 1: I'm great. I'm great. Spring Training is rapidly approaching, and
0:34
Speaker 1: every day I get a little more reality talped by
0:37
Speaker 1: it where I'm like, oh, I gotta get my life
0:38
Speaker 1: together real soon. But I really get excited when these
0:41
Speaker 1: prospect rankings drop because springs training is so unique, and
0:45
Speaker 1: one of the perks about it is that you get
0:47
Speaker 1: to see all these prospects in one place and you're
0:49
Speaker 1: not hopping over or through every single affiliate trying to find,
0:53
Speaker 1: you know, a Quinn Matthew Star or a JJ weatherhole
0:56
Speaker 1: in bat. So this is exciting, I think from my
0:59
Speaker 1: perspective because all of these guys that I've been reading
1:01
Speaker 1: about on Baseball America are all in the same place.
1:04
Speaker 2: They're all coming and it is kind of cool to
1:06
Speaker 2: think that it's a little bit rougher for you because
1:10
Speaker 2: I get to bounce around, but you know, in spring
1:13
Speaker 2: training and all kind of you know, be one place
1:14
Speaker 2: one day, one place another day. But it is kind
1:17
Speaker 2: of cool just to think that we're not that far
1:18
Speaker 2: away from it. It feels like the off season gets
1:21
Speaker 2: shorter and shorter for me every year, but very excited
1:23
Speaker 2: to have Spring training right around the corner.
1:25
Speaker 1: Yes, so this offseason felt a little bit longer for me,
1:28
Speaker 1: mainly just because no postseason and virtually no news. So
1:32
Speaker 1: I was very excited from a personal standpoint to see
1:35
Speaker 1: your rankings out. Baseball America of course did their top
1:38
Speaker 1: one hundred prospects in baseball list. Three Cardinals on that list,
1:43
Speaker 1: JJ Weatherholt, tink Hens, and Quinn Matthews. Of those three, Jj,
1:49
Speaker 1: what do you see about and who's the most exciting
1:52
Speaker 1: in that group?
1:53
Speaker 2: I would say that there is a chance, if everything
1:56
Speaker 2: breaks right, that we could look back on this ten
1:59
Speaker 2: years from now. And so how did JJ Weatherholts slide
2:01
Speaker 2: to the Cardinals? You know, in the draft because he
2:04
Speaker 2: was a guy who coming into the draft. It was
2:08
Speaker 2: a very wide open draft at the top, but there
2:10
Speaker 2: was kind of this consensus group of players and weatherhol
2:13
Speaker 2: could have It would not have been a shock to
2:16
Speaker 2: hear the Guardian's draft JJ Weatherholt won one right now.
2:20
Speaker 2: That had probably been a little bit of a deal
2:22
Speaker 2: save some money later on to draft other players, but
2:26
Speaker 2: he was in that consideration. So for the Cardinals to
2:29
Speaker 2: be sitting there at seven, I don't think that they
2:32
Speaker 2: could have said in any way, oh, we're comfortable, we're
2:35
Speaker 2: confident that weather Holt's going to get to us. You're
2:38
Speaker 2: talking about a guy who has a really long track
2:40
Speaker 2: record of hitting. He was a Division one batting champ
2:43
Speaker 2: two years ago as a sophomore, and to get a
2:46
Speaker 2: guy like that that basically plugs in and everyone has
2:51
Speaker 2: to go through adjustments. I'm not saying anyone's plug and
2:53
Speaker 2: play and going to just step right in the majors,
2:55
Speaker 2: but it would not be surprising at all if weather
2:58
Speaker 2: Holts minor ly. You know, seasoning period is shorter than
3:03
Speaker 2: most guys to where we're really talking about if we're
3:06
Speaker 2: talking a year from now, you know that we could
3:09
Speaker 2: very well just be writing in weather Holton saying, like, Okay,
3:12
Speaker 2: he's expected to be kind of a key contributor to
3:15
Speaker 2: the twenty twenty six Cardinals, and it wouldn't be crazy
3:18
Speaker 2: to think that, depending on how everything goes, maybe he
3:21
Speaker 2: does get there by the end of this year. So
3:23
Speaker 2: that's the guy that really does stand out to me
3:25
Speaker 2: from a standpoint of when you look at a guy
3:26
Speaker 2: if the hit tool like that, who's going to have
3:28
Speaker 2: defensive versatility, probably fits on the Cardinals, probably best as
3:32
Speaker 2: a third baseman because he's not Mason Winn and there's
3:36
Speaker 2: no reason to take your star young shortstop and say, oh,
3:39
Speaker 2: we're gonna move you. So we'll probably see weather Holt move,
3:42
Speaker 2: you know, as a shortstop third basement. Could probably play
3:44
Speaker 2: second if that fit also, but he has that versatility,
3:48
Speaker 2: he has that hit tool. You put all that together,
3:50
Speaker 2: it's just a it's pretty exciting to see a guy
3:53
Speaker 2: like that kind of The Cardinals don't often get to
3:56
Speaker 2: draft guys like that in the draft. They often they
3:59
Speaker 2: obviously I don't hope to be able to draft guys
4:01
Speaker 2: like that anytime soon because they don't expect to be
4:04
Speaker 2: picking that high in the draft real.
4:06
Speaker 1: Correct, And it was funny watching the draft unfold for
4:11
Speaker 1: the first time in what felt like forever, the Cardinals
4:13
Speaker 1: had a top ten pick, and now, of course they're
4:14
Speaker 1: picking up in the top ten back to back years
4:17
Speaker 1: for the first time in franchise history. But as we're
4:19
Speaker 1: watching the draft unfold in real time, I'm seeing you
4:23
Speaker 1: just kind of know things to coverage, like your outlet,
4:25
Speaker 1: what teams are targeting, which kind of player, and around
4:29
Speaker 1: the fifth pick, I've looked and I said, I think
4:31
Speaker 1: the Cardinals are gonna get JJ weatherhole And I don't
4:34
Speaker 1: think that was a situation where they thought was possible
4:36
Speaker 1: at all, and so they end up selecting him. And
4:38
Speaker 1: about an hour later, we hop on a zoom call
4:40
Speaker 1: with director of Scouting Randy Flores, and he is trying
4:43
Speaker 1: so hard to hide his elation, but it was very
4:47
Speaker 1: clear the Cardinals were not expecting a JJ Weatherholt to
4:49
Speaker 1: fall to him, and when they got him, it just
4:51
Speaker 1: made so much sense. You talked about the versatility, you
4:54
Speaker 1: talked about the hit tool. I think from a very
4:57
Speaker 1: early in his professional career outlook, he profiles exactly what
5:01
Speaker 1: the Cardinals look for. And Saint Louis is suddenly going
5:05
Speaker 1: back to drafting and developing we'll get to that later
5:08
Speaker 1: in the episode. But for Weatherhole, who's already I think
5:11
Speaker 1: pretty accomplished and polished in his overall skill set, he
5:16
Speaker 1: seems to me, exactly what you said, a plug and
5:18
Speaker 1: play kind of guy, assuming he can adjust accordingly to
5:20
Speaker 1: whatever affiliate level he starts at, and he just really
5:23
Speaker 1: compliments I think what the Cardinals do best, which is
5:26
Speaker 1: Biden and fielder that can put the ball in play
5:28
Speaker 1: and can move around the diamond. And that's exactly what
5:30
Speaker 1: I think they have in JJ Weatherhole.
5:33
Speaker 2: And like you said, this is something when we say
5:35
Speaker 2: the Cardinals don't often pick in the top ten, and
5:38
Speaker 2: great stat by you that they're going to do it
5:39
Speaker 2: for the first time ever back to back. The last
5:42
Speaker 2: top ten pick I can find before that for the
5:44
Speaker 2: Cardinals was JD Drew, you know, which again kind of
5:47
Speaker 2: fits that profile. The guy JD Drew was a one
5:50
Speaker 2: to one talent who slid the five and that case
5:52
Speaker 2: was really kind of about the asking price he had
5:55
Speaker 2: gone the year before and kind of everyone knew it
5:57
Speaker 2: was gonna be a tougher sign. But that's what you
6:00
Speaker 2: got to do when you have if you're a team
6:02
Speaker 2: that doesn't pick at the top of the draft very
6:04
Speaker 2: often when you do get that rare situation where you
6:08
Speaker 2: do you want to hit on it. Obviously you always
6:11
Speaker 2: want to hit on it, but you really need to
6:12
Speaker 2: because you're not going to have those opportunities very often.
6:16
Speaker 2: Weatherhole absolutely fits that as a standpoint of like, if
6:20
Speaker 2: JJ Weatherholt doesn't hit in pro ball at all, it
6:23
Speaker 2: will kind of be that one of those questions where
6:25
Speaker 2: you go back and say, well, what did we all
6:26
Speaker 2: miss because this guy has a long track record doing it.
6:29
Speaker 2: When you talk to evaluators, they're very confident about as
6:33
Speaker 2: ability to do it. If you're trying to kind of
6:35
Speaker 2: say the downside with JJ Weatherhole, it would be more
6:40
Speaker 2: like that there's a chance that he's a solid player
6:42
Speaker 2: rather than exceptional, which again I feel like sometimes doing
6:47
Speaker 2: what we do, I often hear from people who, again
6:52
Speaker 2: comment or social media, you get kind of you know,
6:55
Speaker 2: some fringe, you know comments at times. But the theme
6:58
Speaker 2: I often get is is you'll see a player traded
7:02
Speaker 2: and they'll say like, oh, but he's only like a
7:04
Speaker 2: two war player, you know, why are they trying to
7:06
Speaker 2: just get that? It's like I feel like that often
7:09
Speaker 2: there's this underestimation of how hard it is to find
7:13
Speaker 2: solid regulars. Like it's one of those things where if
7:17
Speaker 2: JJ Weatherhold is a solid regular, that's a home run
7:20
Speaker 2: of a pick. That's a wig of it, not a
7:23
Speaker 2: oh he didn't end up as a five time All Star.
7:26
Speaker 2: That's the kind of expectations I think sometimes they get
7:28
Speaker 2: a little bit overheated sometimes with some of these guys.
7:31
Speaker 1: I completely agree with you, and I mean it makes
7:34
Speaker 1: sense when I think we're in such a great spot
7:37
Speaker 1: with the sport in terms of how we're promoting the
7:41
Speaker 1: up the next step or the next the upcomers. I
7:43
Speaker 1: think prospect coverage thanks to outlets like Baseball America, if
7:46
Speaker 1: you are really into that, which a lot of Cardinals
7:48
Speaker 1: fans are, given the state of the organization right now,
7:50
Speaker 1: it is so easy to find information and scouting reports
7:54
Speaker 1: and all these stats that can help you the average
7:56
Speaker 1: fan really get excited about potentially the next star of
7:59
Speaker 1: your favorite team. But drafting developing of course, like if
8:02
Speaker 1: you all of a sudden get like a Ronald Cooney junior,
8:05
Speaker 1: that's great. Obviously, the win is drafting a major league
8:11
Speaker 1: caliber player and having them that player blossom into that role.
8:16
Speaker 1: So if you are a two war player. That's a
8:18
Speaker 1: win for the organization. It doesn't matter what organization you are.
8:22
Speaker 2: If you're a Lars Noopbar, if you're Brendan Donovan, guys
8:24
Speaker 2: like that, where you're like, this guy's really contributing, you know,
8:27
Speaker 2: like Ivon Herrera, like they're like if some of those
8:31
Speaker 2: guys take that further step forward, that's makes it even
8:34
Speaker 2: more of a win. But no one out there there's
8:38
Speaker 2: basically other than maybe the Dodgers, no one out there
8:41
Speaker 2: is like, oh no, no, we've just got a two
8:43
Speaker 2: and a half three war regular here and here and
8:46
Speaker 2: here and here and here. It doesn't it's something that
8:48
Speaker 2: just doesn't happen. You always have holes. And that's to
8:51
Speaker 2: me where this kind of you look at this Cardinals
8:55
Speaker 2: team that's kind of in a little bit of a transition.
8:57
Speaker 2: You mentioned how it's kind of been a pretty quiet offseason,
9:00
Speaker 2: and I feel like that, again, I would love kind
9:03
Speaker 2: of what you know, you're closer to it than I am.
9:05
Speaker 2: I feel like that there's it's kind of been almost
9:07
Speaker 2: like a clogged off season for the Cardinals because it
9:11
Speaker 2: does feel like they made the announcement about contrast is
9:14
Speaker 2: probably going to be a first Baseman now and then
9:16
Speaker 2: you're just like, the next step is is and Nolan
9:19
Speaker 2: Aernado is a fill in the blank, and it feels
9:22
Speaker 2: like until that happens, almost like all these other moves,
9:26
Speaker 2: all these other decisions, kind of our amost getting put
9:29
Speaker 2: off in some ways? Is that an accurate way to
9:31
Speaker 2: put it?
9:32
Speaker 1: That has very much been the theme of the off
9:34
Speaker 1: season for definitely for myself and for fans who the
9:38
Speaker 1: writing joke on this podcast is once again, I have
9:41
Speaker 1: no roster news for you. We've been doing this for
9:43
Speaker 1: about over two months now and I haven't yet to
9:46
Speaker 1: have any kind of roster move to talk about with
9:48
Speaker 1: the viewers here because the Cardinals are clogged and I
9:52
Speaker 1: don't think it's necessarily fair that a lot of this
9:54
Speaker 1: is hinging on if Nolan Arnado accepts a trade or not.
9:57
Speaker 1: But we can get into that, but essentially that's that's
10:01
Speaker 1: what the organization has framed their off season as that
10:03
Speaker 1: they can't do anything. This is what they're saying until
10:06
Speaker 1: they know what they're doing with Arnatto. And John Mozelak
10:09
Speaker 1: has said multiple times that his top priority is to
10:11
Speaker 1: trade Arnato. He said that for four months, Well guess
10:14
Speaker 1: what he's still a Cardinal, and that does clog. And
10:18
Speaker 1: you know, I always say it's not a bad thing
10:20
Speaker 1: to have the top third basement in your generation on
10:23
Speaker 1: your roster. And if your goal is to try to
10:26
Speaker 1: win as many games as possible in twenty twenty five
10:28
Speaker 1: at SAT with Cardinals, you do that. You have a
10:30
Speaker 1: better chance with Noel Arnatto playing third base and hitting
10:32
Speaker 1: in the middle of their lineup every day. Obviously, but
10:35
Speaker 1: the Cardinals have stayed in multiple times that their goal
10:37
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty five, well sure is to try to compete,
10:40
Speaker 1: it's also to get extensive playing time to a lot
10:42
Speaker 1: of their young guys on the roster, and it does
10:45
Speaker 1: clog opportunity for guys like Alec Burlison, for guys like
10:49
Speaker 1: Thomas to JC. You go down the list, all of
10:53
Speaker 1: your infielders are going to be impacted because there's no
10:55
Speaker 1: way Arnato is not going to play every day. He's
10:58
Speaker 1: still a Cardinal come Opening Day. While I'm behind the
11:01
Speaker 1: youth movement for the Cardinals, I think this has been
11:03
Speaker 1: a decision a long time coming and they're finally making it.
11:06
Speaker 1: I do have questions on if they're actually going to
11:09
Speaker 1: be able to execute their plan and give these guys
11:12
Speaker 1: playing time that they want. Because if Arnatto is here,
11:15
Speaker 1: I'm having a hard time scene where Thomas and jac
11:17
Speaker 1: plays every day. I'm having a hard time scene what
11:20
Speaker 1: Alec Gurlson can do as an everyday bat. What does
11:23
Speaker 1: this mean for Brennan Donovan, who, like you said that
11:25
Speaker 1: he's been a great addition to this Cardinals team. It
11:28
Speaker 1: just does for me, it doesn't make a lot of sense.
11:30
Speaker 2: Well, let's go bed. Let's bring this back to weather
11:33
Speaker 2: Hole for a minute, right, Like, this year for Weatherhole
11:36
Speaker 2: is the year that ideally he's going to hit again.
11:39
Speaker 2: We just expect that he's probably gonna work on positional versatility.
11:43
Speaker 2: But you really ideally kind of want to start pointing
11:47
Speaker 2: him to whatever his his likely home in Saint Louis right,
11:52
Speaker 2: because he does have that versatility. Again, if shortstop looks unlikely,
11:57
Speaker 2: when you do have this young star shortstop who did
12:01
Speaker 2: everything you wanted to see and who's just better defensively
12:04
Speaker 2: than JJ Weatherholt, So okay, let's just say that short
12:06
Speaker 2: stops out, he's probably at third base. But don't you
12:11
Speaker 2: I mean again, like, if they Cardinals do clear this
12:15
Speaker 2: log jam and they do trade one of their best
12:17
Speaker 2: players in the last several years. It also kind of
12:20
Speaker 2: opens up to see, okay at that point because we're
12:24
Speaker 2: you know, we still have young, established big leaguers in
12:26
Speaker 2: some ways, like how does Nolan Gorman fit, you know,
12:29
Speaker 2: for this team in the long term. I'll be honest,
12:32
Speaker 2: Like with Jordan Walker, like obviously there's a lot of
12:34
Speaker 2: questions to go still about his bat, but I think
12:37
Speaker 2: more than anything, the question is is where does he
12:39
Speaker 2: fit defensively on this team long term? You mentioned Burlson,
12:43
Speaker 2: It's like, okay, if you've got Burlson, who has been
12:47
Speaker 2: really a solid producer for them, and I would say
12:51
Speaker 2: a more well rounded player than maybe I expected when
12:54
Speaker 2: he was coming out of college. But you've got him
12:56
Speaker 2: who's kind of bat first, Jordan Walker, who needs you
13:00
Speaker 2: kind of project him to be bat first in the outfield.
13:03
Speaker 2: He's been a little bit of adventure out there that's
13:05
Speaker 2: probably not maybe even we don't know if that's his
13:07
Speaker 2: ideal fit long term. You got Contraras moving down the
13:10
Speaker 2: spectrum to first base. It's kind of you've got these
13:13
Speaker 2: guys who they kind of need to figure out before
13:17
Speaker 2: twenty six. I would say some kind of fit of Okay,
13:21
Speaker 2: so where does Weatherholt fit best on the twenty sixteam?
13:24
Speaker 2: And some of that, I would say is kind of
13:26
Speaker 2: figuring out where does the Sagace fit on the twenty
13:29
Speaker 2: five team? Where does a Gorman fit on this team?
13:31
Speaker 2: Where does you know, again, Brenda Donovan's going to probably
13:34
Speaker 2: play a little bit of wherever, but where does he
13:36
Speaker 2: fit best? There's new bar there's all these guys that
13:41
Speaker 2: sorting out like because again, we do look at when
13:43
Speaker 2: I look at this Cardinals team right now and you
13:46
Speaker 2: fast forward a year, assuming Aeronau is no longer on
13:50
Speaker 2: the team at that point, Sonny Gray may still be
13:53
Speaker 2: you know, he's under contract, but there's really it does
13:56
Speaker 2: feel like that the end of this year when you
13:58
Speaker 2: look at you know, you look at you've got multiple
14:02
Speaker 2: i would say, fixtures on this Cardinals team who are
14:06
Speaker 2: hitting free agency at the end of this year. It
14:09
Speaker 2: feels like this is kind of step one of transition,
14:12
Speaker 2: and then step two it would be next year where
14:14
Speaker 2: ideally you kind of hope, I would say, you kind
14:17
Speaker 2: of hope to know a little bit more about what
14:20
Speaker 2: pieces you have and where they fit than you do
14:22
Speaker 2: right now.
14:23
Speaker 1: And I think that's by design. I mean we'll get
14:25
Speaker 1: into this. Hein Bloom is taking over in twenty twenty
14:28
Speaker 1: six and John Moselox last year. Well, I'm sure he
14:32
Speaker 1: wants to compete, and this is not something that a
14:34
Speaker 1: decision he took lightly. He's trying to make this transition
14:38
Speaker 1: for Hein Bloom as easy as possible. And at the
14:40
Speaker 1: end of the twenty twenty five season, You're right, most
14:42
Speaker 1: of these free agents, the exception of Sunny Gray and
14:45
Speaker 1: Wilson contrarists. They'll be on expiring contracts. So Eric Fetti
14:48
Speaker 1: expiring contract, Miles Michaelis expiring contract, Brian Helsley, same thing.
14:52
Speaker 1: That's by design. So that transition part two, I like
14:56
Speaker 1: how you phrase that really does take over in twenty
14:58
Speaker 1: twenty six. One is the Cardinals answering on their current
15:03
Speaker 1: roster right now, who is going to make the cut
15:05
Speaker 1: to part two, And they don't know that about Nolan Gorman.
15:09
Speaker 1: They really don't know that about Jordan Walker, who is
15:11
Speaker 1: if people on the show know, I am a big
15:14
Speaker 1: Jordan Walker advocate, I don't think he was really ever
15:16
Speaker 1: put in a position to succeed by the organization, and he,
15:18
Speaker 1: to me is the player they have to get right
15:20
Speaker 1: next year, but they don't know if new Bar is
15:22
Speaker 1: going to be that guy. They feel pretty confident about
15:24
Speaker 1: Mason Wynn and Brennan Donovan, but other than that, there
15:26
Speaker 1: are a ton of question marks all over the roster,
15:29
Speaker 1: which is why part one of this transition is so important.
15:32
Speaker 1: And then you get to part two with Hein Bloom
15:35
Speaker 1: and you have whoever's made the cut from the twenty
15:37
Speaker 1: twenty five season, and you're essentially doing it all over
15:40
Speaker 1: again with these up and comers in the farm system,
15:42
Speaker 1: and that's going to be led by JJ Weatherhole.
15:45
Speaker 2: The other part I would say about that is is
15:47
Speaker 2: part one. I feel like a lot of it is
15:50
Speaker 2: about getting the line up right that you just talked about,
15:54
Speaker 2: and then part two is about getting the rotation right,
15:56
Speaker 2: because you just rattled it off like now, depending on
15:59
Speaker 2: how the season, we could see some of these players
16:02
Speaker 2: traded mid season if the Cardinal season doesn't go as
16:05
Speaker 2: they hope. But when you look at this rotation for
16:08
Speaker 2: twenty twenty six, they're going to need some new blood
16:12
Speaker 2: because we kind of know if you look at where
16:14
Speaker 2: the rotation is right now and the bullpen to some extent,
16:17
Speaker 2: when you're talking about your closers, also on an expiring contract.
16:20
Speaker 2: You have a situation here where that's where I think
16:23
Speaker 2: the Quinn Matthews of the world are going to be fascinating,
16:26
Speaker 2: because Quinn really should be able to help this tink
16:30
Speaker 2: Kents should be able to help this Cardinals team at
16:34
Speaker 2: some point in twenty five. But I would say, as
16:37
Speaker 2: much as you want to see them produce and help
16:39
Speaker 2: the Cardinals win in twenty five, if you're the Cardinals,
16:41
Speaker 2: the biggest part of it is is you want to
16:43
Speaker 2: be able to write them in in pen into your
16:46
Speaker 2: twenty twenty six plans where you say, okay, if you
16:49
Speaker 2: like when tink hens, I would say, the big thing
16:52
Speaker 2: that you want to see if you're the Cardinals coming
16:54
Speaker 2: out of twenty five is we feel very comfortable tink
16:58
Speaker 2: Kent showed durability, He was healthy, he took the ball,
17:01
Speaker 2: you know, twenty five times, twenty two times even let's
17:04
Speaker 2: just say as a starter in the minors and then
17:07
Speaker 2: in the majors at the end of the season to
17:09
Speaker 2: where we can comfortably put him in the rotation and
17:13
Speaker 2: not say, oh, he threw sixty innings. So we know
17:17
Speaker 2: that we're really going to be limited by how much
17:19
Speaker 2: we can get out of him next year. I would
17:22
Speaker 2: say I'm a little less worried about that with Quinn Matthews,
17:24
Speaker 2: who seems to take the ball every five days and
17:26
Speaker 2: say I'll give you five, I'll give you six, I'll
17:28
Speaker 2: give you seven if you need and he's done that
17:30
Speaker 2: going back to college. But but I would say, on
17:32
Speaker 2: top of that, it's like, okay, is it to CoA?
17:35
Speaker 2: Robi is a you know Cooper, Jerpy is a There
17:39
Speaker 2: are guys here who are like, Okay, can these guys
17:41
Speaker 2: start fitting into this? Because that twenty twenty six pitching
17:47
Speaker 2: staff has a lot of questions right now. I think again,
17:51
Speaker 2: like we also have to work into that. Do the
17:53
Speaker 2: Matthew Liberturs and you know the guys like that playoff
17:57
Speaker 2: role in that as well. And that's I think where
18:00
Speaker 2: we kind of talk about heinme Bloom, Like if you
18:02
Speaker 2: ask me one of the things that you look at
18:05
Speaker 2: with heinme Bloom over multiple stops that he's done, you know,
18:08
Speaker 2: he's really done a good job of building up farm systems.
18:11
Speaker 2: And I'd say that a lot of that is there
18:12
Speaker 2: is a you know, a lot of that is on
18:14
Speaker 2: the pitching side. And so if they can take steps
18:17
Speaker 2: forward as far as pitching development this year, that would
18:21
Speaker 2: be crucial for them, I think for twenty six, twenty
18:24
Speaker 2: seven and beyond.
18:25
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Speaker 1: It's been a work in progress. Let's talk about pitching development,
19:56
Speaker 1: because well, you know, I've only been covered the Cardinals
20:00
Speaker 1: for about five years. I've seen a pattern in their
20:03
Speaker 1: pitching development. Where you mentioned Matthew Libertorre, we can talk
20:08
Speaker 1: about Zach Thompson, Andre Polante. They have these starting pitching
20:12
Speaker 1: prospects and we've seen this with Tink Hence and Cooper Derby,
20:17
Speaker 1: and they're not exactly notching up innings. And part of
20:19
Speaker 1: that is to longevity, protecting pitcher's health. I get it,
20:23
Speaker 1: but there's been kind of an awkward transition over the
20:26
Speaker 1: last two or three years where these starting pitching prospects
20:29
Speaker 1: come up and immediately go to relief and they're bounced
20:32
Speaker 1: from relief pitching to starting in Triple A to relief
20:35
Speaker 1: pitching in the majors back to Triple A, and they
20:37
Speaker 1: don't have designed roles, and it's taken guys like Matthew Libertory,
20:41
Speaker 1: like Andre Polante two to three years to really find
20:44
Speaker 1: their groove in whatever assignment that they have, and I'm
20:49
Speaker 1: hoping that changes for this next crop of young pitching prospects.
20:53
Speaker 1: The Cardinals hired a new director of pitching, Matt Pierpok
20:55
Speaker 1: from the Seattle Mariners. Obviously, the Mariners are very very
20:58
Speaker 1: good at pitching development, and the Cardinals have fallen behind.
21:01
Speaker 1: And a lot of aspects in player development across the board.
21:05
Speaker 1: What do you like to see from the Cardinals in
21:07
Speaker 1: terms of maybe better in their pitching development starting this year.
21:11
Speaker 2: I want to credit Jeff bonds for us because he
21:13
Speaker 2: does our Cardinals list, and Jeff has kind of we
21:15
Speaker 2: talked about this a lot that one of the things
21:17
Speaker 2: that we are seeing now is like he said, is
21:19
Speaker 2: he's doing this list this year, there's more velocity on it.
21:22
Speaker 2: And that may seem like, well, yeah, there's always more
21:26
Speaker 2: velocity in baseball now, but that's actually been kind of
21:29
Speaker 2: I would say one of the one of the the
21:31
Speaker 2: you know, the questions with Cardinals starting pitchers. There's a
21:34
Speaker 2: little bit more kind of to work with here in
21:37
Speaker 2: some cases. But the other prob I was say, like,
21:40
Speaker 2: if I look back at again, hein Bloom's kind of
21:43
Speaker 2: longer tenure was obviously with the Rays. I don't want
21:46
Speaker 2: to say, like, you know that everything that the Rays
21:49
Speaker 2: do was hein Bloom, and everything that heim Blum does
21:52
Speaker 2: the Rays obviously has been the red sux inctent. But
21:54
Speaker 2: one of the things that did stand out with that
21:56
Speaker 2: when he was with the Rays, it's kind of a
22:01
Speaker 2: you know, just a running joke, but it's it's something
22:04
Speaker 2: that's paid off for them. The Ray's approach was with
22:07
Speaker 2: starting pitchers was they would rather they get two, three, four, five, six,
22:12
Speaker 2: too many starts in triple a thence five six, seven, eight,
22:16
Speaker 2: too few starts, right. If they brought a guy up,
22:20
Speaker 2: they wanted him to be ready to contribute, and that
22:24
Speaker 2: also meant as far as workload innings things like that.
22:28
Speaker 2: I can think of multiple examples where the Rays have
22:30
Speaker 2: brought up pitchers to start playoff games for them, pitch well,
22:36
Speaker 2: and then the next year the season starts, it's like,
22:39
Speaker 2: shame Baz, you're back in Triple A. David Price, You're
22:42
Speaker 2: back in Triple A. They've done this over the years
22:44
Speaker 2: where it's like no, no, no, they're our success is
22:48
Speaker 2: based around when a guy comes up as a starting pitcher,
22:52
Speaker 2: he's ready to go. Now, I don't think I'm not
22:54
Speaker 2: saying they've never had guys who go into the pen
22:57
Speaker 2: and then move back to rotation, But more often than not,
23:01
Speaker 2: their approach was our starters are starters, are relievers, are
23:05
Speaker 2: former starters or guy, but they're generally going to stay
23:08
Speaker 2: in that relief role. And I think that that's something
23:11
Speaker 2: you may see a little bit here is kind of
23:12
Speaker 2: figuring out. Now some of these guys were talking about,
23:15
Speaker 2: like tink Hence is going to kind of determine in
23:19
Speaker 2: some ways whether you know whether not intentionally, but just
23:23
Speaker 2: by how he performs. If he can't show he's a
23:27
Speaker 2: smaller guy, if he can't hold up as a starter
23:32
Speaker 2: over the workload of let's just say one hundred and
23:34
Speaker 2: fifty plus innings, because that's what you're going to have
23:36
Speaker 2: to have to be a big league starter, you know,
23:39
Speaker 2: year in year out. If he can't do that, well,
23:41
Speaker 2: then you probably are gonna end up moving into the
23:43
Speaker 2: pen if you're the Cardinals, not because you don't want
23:45
Speaker 2: him to be a starter, but just because at some
23:48
Speaker 2: point that direction heads that way. You know, a Cooper
23:51
Speaker 2: Jerpy could end up in that role, not because the
23:54
Speaker 2: Cardinals don't want him to develop as a starter, but
23:57
Speaker 2: his assortment, kind of his strengths and weaknesses could end
24:00
Speaker 2: up fitting better in kind of a relief role. But
24:03
Speaker 2: I would say with that also though, and again I
24:05
Speaker 2: get this, some of this has been over the years, though,
24:07
Speaker 2: has been that because the Cardinals until this last couple
24:11
Speaker 2: of years are always competing for titles. You see this
24:16
Speaker 2: challenge with the Yankees, with the Dodgers, with these other teams. Also,
24:20
Speaker 2: where if you're trying to win right now, that balance
24:24
Speaker 2: of okay, is this guy, can he help us in
24:27
Speaker 2: a pen, Yeah, is he ready to start for us? No,
24:29
Speaker 2: Then a guy does get kind of jerked around a
24:31
Speaker 2: little bit because you're not in a situation to say
24:35
Speaker 2: we're focused on the long term. We're focusing on trying to,
24:38
Speaker 2: you know, to win a Pennant this year. We're trying
24:40
Speaker 2: to basically be the best team we can to try
24:43
Speaker 2: to win a World Series this year. If there is
24:46
Speaker 2: any advantage that has come out of this last couple
24:48
Speaker 2: of years for the Cardinals, and I would not say
24:50
Speaker 2: it's an advantage they want to have very often, but
24:52
Speaker 2: there is a little bit more runway right now to
24:55
Speaker 2: try to figure that out a thing.
24:57
Speaker 1: JH. I think that's exactly what happened with a lot
24:59
Speaker 1: of these was we're in the win now mode, and well,
25:02
Speaker 1: we can debate overall roster construction, maybe not setting up
25:06
Speaker 1: the team for the best success and that strategy. It
25:09
Speaker 1: was very clear when they were calling up these guys
25:11
Speaker 1: like Thompson, like Liberatore, like Gordon Grisseppo for example, it
25:15
Speaker 1: was because they needed to win that day and it
25:17
Speaker 1: didn't really matter about their long term development. And the
25:21
Speaker 1: silver lining to the direction the Cardinals are taking in
25:24
Speaker 1: twenty twenty five is they are prioritizing the development first,
25:27
Speaker 1: so that shouldn't happen to these guys anymore. Now. This
25:30
Speaker 1: is whether or not they stick to their plan of
25:32
Speaker 1: development first. But I do believe that the organization, from
25:35
Speaker 1: ownership to management, is committed to doing it this way.
25:38
Speaker 1: And when the Cardinals were at their best, they were
25:41
Speaker 1: a draft and development club, and they did it so
25:43
Speaker 1: well that the rest of the rest of the industry
25:46
Speaker 1: started copying them. And where things fell apart was as
25:49
Speaker 1: other teams made more investments, the Cardinals stayed the same.
25:53
Speaker 1: But I do think that this is a system or
25:55
Speaker 1: a strategy that the organization can get behind because it's
25:58
Speaker 1: worked for them before.
26:00
Speaker 2: The thing that does surprise me of if you ask me, like,
26:04
Speaker 2: where have the Cardinals kind of that tracked, I guess
26:08
Speaker 2: in recent years compared to what's kind of been the
26:10
Speaker 2: Cardinals way to me, Like when I started at Baseball
26:13
Speaker 2: America more years ago than I wanted, you know that
26:16
Speaker 2: I want to admit, like talking about talking to people
26:19
Speaker 2: about George Kissel and what players like these legendary coaches
26:23
Speaker 2: that the Cardinals had who have been there forever who
26:26
Speaker 2: kind of were crucial to development of players. But one
26:29
Speaker 2: of the things I felt like the Cardinals always were
26:31
Speaker 2: good at is getting the most defensively out of position players,
26:35
Speaker 2: guys Paul Deong. No one when Paul de Young was
26:39
Speaker 2: at Illinois State. There is not a person out there
26:42
Speaker 2: I talked to a scout, a coach, anyone who said
26:46
Speaker 2: that's a big league shortstop. They thought it was a
26:47
Speaker 2: big leaguer, but no one thought he's going to be
26:49
Speaker 2: able to stay at shortstop in pro ball. He didn't
26:52
Speaker 2: even really play shortstop regularly in college. Guys like that,
26:56
Speaker 2: the Matt Carpenters of the world, they did this over
26:59
Speaker 2: and over where they just kept taking guys who have bats,
27:04
Speaker 2: and then they would manage to get them to be
27:08
Speaker 2: a better defender than anyone thought they were when they
27:10
Speaker 2: were an amateur. And so then you really get value
27:13
Speaker 2: out of this because you've got guys who were really
27:15
Speaker 2: good hitters who ended up being defensive assets, not defensive weaknesses,
27:19
Speaker 2: at positions that they weren't even expected to be able
27:21
Speaker 2: to play. I think we've seen over the last couple
27:23
Speaker 2: of years that's something that's kind of been lost. Jordan Walker,
27:27
Speaker 2: they moved him to the outfield, but Jordan Walker has
27:29
Speaker 2: looked lost in the outfield at times and does not
27:31
Speaker 2: look comfortable out there. Nolan Gorman, they moved him, but
27:35
Speaker 2: it didn't turn Nolan Gorman like when they moved him
27:38
Speaker 2: to second base, it didn't turn him to an exceptional
27:40
Speaker 2: defender at second base. You know, again, contres was fully
27:46
Speaker 2: big leaguer when they brought him in. But at the
27:48
Speaker 2: same time, the Brewers have had a knack of taking
27:52
Speaker 2: big league catchers and finding an extra gear for them defensively,
27:56
Speaker 2: where it's like, you know, let's just take the contrerast brothers.
27:59
Speaker 2: They boa Contraras and made him a better defender than
28:03
Speaker 2: anyone thought he was when he was coming up through
28:05
Speaker 2: the miners. That's something I do think the Cardinals have
28:08
Speaker 2: to get back to, is that ability to help players
28:13
Speaker 2: add a half grade or a grade better defense in
28:16
Speaker 2: the minors or even like at that major league development side.
28:20
Speaker 2: And that's something that's kind of I think going to
28:21
Speaker 2: be the challenge of the next couple of years because
28:24
Speaker 2: a lot of these problems that are these questions we're
28:27
Speaker 2: talking about, I feel like what the Cardinals get answered
28:30
Speaker 2: a lot if all of a sudden, guys who are like, okay,
28:33
Speaker 2: maybe that guy can play there becomes at least he's
28:35
Speaker 2: an average defender, or that average defender becomes an above
28:39
Speaker 2: average defender.
28:40
Speaker 1: JJ. I think Cardinals fans will probably be giving you
28:42
Speaker 1: a standing ovation after that point, because the most common
28:45
Speaker 1: gripe I get, and it's justified throughout the season, is
28:49
Speaker 1: what happened to the Cardinals defense? And I think you know,
28:52
Speaker 1: using your examples of Nolan Gorman and Jordan Walker, these
28:54
Speaker 1: are necessarily bad first players, but their bats have not
28:59
Speaker 1: really come to any kind of fruition that people thought
29:02
Speaker 1: that it would of the Major Leaves, and their defense
29:04
Speaker 1: has been strides behind, and that's because of the position changes.
29:07
Speaker 1: I mean, the Cardinals knew that they had Nolan Arnatto
29:10
Speaker 1: under contract for a long time. Sure there were a
29:13
Speaker 1: couple opt outs there, but if you are trying to
29:16
Speaker 1: win and you're under the assumption that Nolan wants to stay,
29:19
Speaker 1: why was Jordan Walker only given four months in the
29:22
Speaker 1: outfield before playing at the Major Leaves? Why is Nolan
29:25
Speaker 1: Gorman all of a sudden switching a second base and
29:26
Speaker 1: has us spring training to adjust to it. The defense
29:29
Speaker 1: takes a hit, and when the bats don't come along,
29:31
Speaker 1: I think it just compounds everything, and it's made for
29:34
Speaker 1: really a lot of frustration throughout the organization because all
29:37
Speaker 1: of these players have the celium. You know this, you
29:39
Speaker 1: write about it, and it just hasn't clicked for any
29:41
Speaker 1: of them yet.
29:42
Speaker 2: And when you're struggling defensively, that does impact your hitting
29:46
Speaker 2: as well. Like it's not something where these are robots
29:49
Speaker 2: where it's like they can completely separate, Oh, I just
29:52
Speaker 2: had a really rough inning in the field. Now I'm
29:55
Speaker 2: going to come coming in at that and you know,
29:58
Speaker 2: comeing to hit and like just flush completely. You would
30:01
Speaker 2: love to, especially when you're talking about young players, it's
30:03
Speaker 2: hard to kind of pull off that separation of saying
30:06
Speaker 2: I'm just going to forget about my struggles out there
30:08
Speaker 2: and I'm going to give you the best at bad
30:10
Speaker 2: I can. These are all intertwined. Like if you're feeling
30:13
Speaker 2: comfortable and if you make a great play defensively, it
30:16
Speaker 2: does have a little bit of an emotional carryover to
30:19
Speaker 2: when you're hitting as well. So you want to put
30:21
Speaker 2: these players in positions to succeed, and part of that
30:24
Speaker 2: is getting them comfortable playing the positions that you're asking
30:28
Speaker 2: them to play. As I see.
30:30
Speaker 1: Couldn't agree more and hopefully that's something that the Cardinals
30:33
Speaker 1: can figure out a way to get back to. They've
30:35
Speaker 1: always been, up until the last couple of years, a
30:37
Speaker 1: very strong defensive club. It's kind of been the gold
30:39
Speaker 1: standard of their organization and clearly something that they would
30:42
Speaker 1: like to get back to. My last thing for you is,
30:45
Speaker 1: not only are the top one hundred prospect rankings out,
30:47
Speaker 1: but the top thirty for each organization are out as well.
30:51
Speaker 1: We've talked about Janke, hence we've talked about JJ Weatherhole.
30:55
Speaker 1: You actually came to Saint Louis for the Saint Louis
30:57
Speaker 1: Baseball Riter Dinner and you presented Quinn Matthews, who is
31:00
Speaker 1: on that top thirty list of course as well with
31:03
Speaker 1: the twenty twenty four Baseball America Player of the Year award.
31:06
Speaker 1: What what stood out about last year that made him
31:10
Speaker 1: worthy of such an author for you, guys, excuse me,
31:14
Speaker 1: I have a cool tooth, and I've been struggling this
31:16
Speaker 1: entire episode.
31:16
Speaker 2: So the thing with Quinn Matthews. And by the way,
31:20
Speaker 2: you know, I feel like I'm not trying to be
31:22
Speaker 2: like overly critical of the Cardinals. I think the Cardinals
31:24
Speaker 2: are doing a lot of things well here we have
31:25
Speaker 2: to talk about Yiro Padilla, who I think is a
31:27
Speaker 2: name one hundred percent for Cardinals fans to file away
31:30
Speaker 2: because he's going to be really good. It looks like
31:33
Speaker 2: Quin Matthews case. That is a really an impressive case
31:36
Speaker 2: of a draft and development success story. This isn't a
31:39
Speaker 2: first round picks, a fourth round pick who had success
31:44
Speaker 2: at Stanford but has found another gear. Is a more
31:49
Speaker 2: well rounded pitcher with better stuff as a pro than
31:53
Speaker 2: he was in college, and to go with really impressive durability.
31:59
Speaker 2: He's he is kind of one of those He's got
32:02
Speaker 2: that combination of you expectful the Stanford guy, but a
32:05
Speaker 2: really smart guy who knows how to work, you know,
32:08
Speaker 2: set up pitchers and all that. Many hitters, I should
32:10
Speaker 2: say set up hitters and all that, but also on
32:12
Speaker 2: top of that, has real stuff and just goes out
32:15
Speaker 2: and does it start after start after start. He was
32:20
Speaker 2: until he hit Triple A in September, which probably will
32:22
Speaker 2: be a little bit beneficial for him. He didn't have
32:25
Speaker 2: the perfect season where from day one of the season
32:28
Speaker 2: until the final day of the season everything worked great.
32:31
Speaker 2: He did in low A and high A and Double
32:34
Speaker 2: A and finally hit Triple A and had that first
32:37
Speaker 2: little setback as a pro, but it was just an
32:40
Speaker 2: exceptional season. We talked you mentioned, Katie about the guys
32:44
Speaker 2: who haven't shown that they can throw one hundred and
32:47
Speaker 2: forty plus innings, which nowadays one hundred and forty innings
32:50
Speaker 2: in the minors is a really impressive workload. Quinn Matthews
32:53
Speaker 2: has already checked that box. He's already shown that he
32:56
Speaker 2: can hold up and his stuff can he can maintain
32:59
Speaker 2: stuff over the course of a five month season if
33:03
Speaker 2: you look at him like the season he had in
33:04
Speaker 2: twenty twenty four was pretty much impeccable. But on top
33:09
Speaker 2: of that, it does really position him well. Probably starts
33:12
Speaker 2: the season in Triple A, but that is a guy
33:14
Speaker 2: who goes out, has a good Triple A start, and
33:17
Speaker 2: then you can say, Okay, he's big league ready. And
33:21
Speaker 2: we're not really that worried about the workload either. We're
33:23
Speaker 2: not worried that this is a guy who, oh, we're
33:26
Speaker 2: gonna have to shut him down five weeks after he
33:28
Speaker 2: comes up because he only threw eighty innings or sixty
33:30
Speaker 2: innings or last year. Quinn Matthews has already checked that box,
33:34
Speaker 2: has shown he can hold up, and that kind of
33:36
Speaker 2: makes him more big league ready than a lot of
33:38
Speaker 2: these guys were talking about.
33:40
Speaker 1: I know Cardinals fans are pretty excited about Quinn Matthews.
33:43
Speaker 1: They're excited about maybe the farm system in general. I
33:46
Speaker 1: think it's a transition time. It hasn't been the most
33:49
Speaker 1: exciting time in terms of major league transactions. But the
33:52
Speaker 1: closer we could just spend training, the more I see
33:54
Speaker 1: fans getting a little bit more excited, and I'm getting
33:58
Speaker 1: excited as well. So thank you so much. If you
34:02
Speaker 1: do not subscribe to Baseball America, what are you doing?
34:04
Speaker 1: It is an absolute instrumental tool. If you want to
34:07
Speaker 1: follow prospect development the pharm system, you can scan this
34:11
Speaker 1: QR code. I'll leave it up for the end of
34:12
Speaker 1: the episode. Use promo code Cardinal thirty to get thirty
34:15
Speaker 1: percent off the first year of any annual subscription to
34:18
Speaker 1: Baseball America. I have been a user of the site
34:20
Speaker 1: dating back to when I was an intern in the
34:22
Speaker 1: minor leagues. It is just top notch stuff. JJ and
34:26
Speaker 1: his staff do a wonderful job. Thank you JJ for
34:29
Speaker 1: coming on. I know you're a busy guy right now
34:30
Speaker 1: with baseball around the corner. But this was great and
34:33
Speaker 1: I really appreciated it.
34:35
Speaker 2: We're very fortunate, aren't we We get to do this.
34:37
Speaker 2: This is our job. We get this is fun, but
34:39
Speaker 2: this is also our job. So thank you and again
34:41
Speaker 2: thank you to subscribers for you to like for in
34:43
Speaker 2: both of our cases, it's like that's what gets us,
34:46
Speaker 2: allows us to do this, and we don't discount very often,
34:49
Speaker 2: so you know, like this is something where if you
34:51
Speaker 2: want to take advantage of that, we don't have many
34:53
Speaker 2: opportunities for that, so but thank you for that, Katie,
34:55
Speaker 2: and thank you again, thank you for the time.
34:57
Speaker 1: No, this is great. Again, subscribe if you have it already.
35:00
Speaker 1: It's great work. You can get not just the top
35:03
Speaker 1: one hundred or the top thirty in the Cardinals system,
35:05
Speaker 1: but all of the organizations. It's a pivotal tool for me,
35:09
Speaker 1: especially during the weeks before the draft and just all around.
35:13
Speaker 1: This is a great finn to subscribe for a Cardinals
35:14
Speaker 1: fan because we're gonna be talking about the farm system
35:17
Speaker 1: a lot, so if.
35:18
Speaker 2: You want to do your prep work as a Cardinals
35:19
Speaker 2: fan to know because it said they're gonna be as
35:21
Speaker 2: Katie mentioned, they're gonna be drafting high again. We've got.
35:24
Speaker 2: You know, we're updating actually we're updating our draft list
35:26
Speaker 2: and rankings and reports and all again as basically they'll
35:31
Speaker 2: be up as you see this pretty much. You know,
35:33
Speaker 2: we're rolling out another one on that and we'll be
35:35
Speaker 2: updating that all year too, so we you know, we
35:36
Speaker 2: do draft coverage three year and sixty five days a year,
35:39
Speaker 2: prospect coverage all year round. That this is what we do.
35:42
Speaker 2: This is this is fun.
35:43
Speaker 1: It is fun. This was fun. I appreciate it. Next week,
35:47
Speaker 1: you guys, we've got a little bit of a weird
35:48
Speaker 1: schedule going on. We will have two episodes for you.
35:51
Speaker 1: Trevor will do one of them. I just don't know
35:53
Speaker 1: which days yet, so just all what you should you
35:56
Speaker 1: know the drill by now this is very much. You
35:58
Speaker 1: get what you pay for, which on you tube is
36:00
Speaker 1: zero dollars.
36:01
Speaker 2: So uh for.
36:02
Speaker 1: JJ Cooper, I'm Katie Woo. This is Cardinal Territory. Will
36:05
Speaker 1: be back next week. Thanks again, JJ. It was a
36:07
Speaker 1: lot of fun.
36:09
Speaker 2: Thank you.
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Speaker 1: H