Latest / Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald / Bravo Restraining Orders, Private Investigators, and Escaping a MLM

Transcript

Bravo Restraining Orders, Private Investigators, and Escaping a MLM · Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Looking to make everyday life a little easier? Discover Dyson
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: at DID Electrical. From the powerful Dyson V16 piston vacuum
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: designed to tackle everyday dust and mess, to the Dyson
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: hot and cool purifier, which captures household pollutants for a cleaner,
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: healthier home while keeping you warm through the winter. Dyson
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: technology is designed to enhance every home. Discover Dyson's range
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: at your local DID Electrical or online at did.ie.
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: Heather MacDonald has got the Juicy Scoop. When you're on
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: the road, when you're on the go, Juicy Scoop is
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: the show to know.
• 0:42
  Speaker 3: She talks Hollywood tales for real life.
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: Mr. Saving Serial Data and Serial Sisters. You'll be addicted
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: and addicted fast to the number one tabloid real life podcast.
• 0:53
  Speaker 3: Listen in, listen up.
• 0:55
  Speaker 4: Woo, woo.
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: Heather MacDonald.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: Juicy Scoop.
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. Once again, I have
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: a great show for you today. I'm going to go
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: through some juicy hot topics for you, catch you up
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: to date on everything. And then I had a wonderful
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: in-studio interview with an author who was part of a
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: huge multi-level marketing company and everything she experienced, how she
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: got out, it's really juicy and very interesting. And that's
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: Emily Paulson. But first, let me get into a few
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: things that are happening. We're going to get into the
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: real housewives of New Jersey first because there's new news
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: on that that I think is a crazy story. As
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: you know, Teresa, star of the show, got married to
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: this guy, Louis. When she started to date him, people
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: became aware that he had two ex-fiances, both named Vanessa.
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: One of them, she's very pretty blonde named Vanessa, is
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: a therapist, and she went on to do this– some
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: publicity about this race that she does where she like
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: ran in her wedding dress and reveals what's it like
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: to be in a relationship with a narcissist. And she
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: specializes in recovery from narcissistic spouse abuse or partner abuse
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: of a narcissist. And she just got a, just got
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: granted a temporary restraining order against Louie. her ex-fiance and
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: now husband of Teresa of Real Housewives of New Jersey,
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: because her attorney, who is doing the interviews for her,
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: said she had this person come in as a client
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: and she was counseling her. And every time she'd come in,
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: this person would also ask about her. And she'd say,
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: what about your ex-fiance, Louis? What if he left Teresa?
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: Would you ever consider going back to him? And first,
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: she didn't think it was a big deal. Because she
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: was like, well, it was in the news and they
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: are famous and people might be interested. But she was
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: a little suspicious. And then the woman, I guess, stopped coming.
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: I'm not really sure what happened next. But she was
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: paying with these prepaid cards and they didn't go through.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: So then they went into collection. And in trying to
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: collect the money, they realized that this woman was a
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: an employee of Bo Deedle's. And Bo Deedle is this
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: private investigator that Louis screamed to everybody while on camera,
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: I got Bo Deedle to investigate all of you. I've
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: got stuff on all of you. Then he said, no,
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: I was just joking. We would never spend our money
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: on that. However, you know, they were personal friends. One
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: thing that we found interesting is that my friend, comedian
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: Tammy Pascatelli, noticed that when she was doing standup and
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: working with Joe Gorgon, his standup career, that this guy,
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: Bo Dietl, started to follow her. I think that was interesting.
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: He has now said, I won't admit or deny that
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: I ever worked for Louie.
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: So that's changing the story from, no, I never worked
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: for him. Now it's like, I'm not admitting it or
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: denying it. So she went and got this restraining order
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: saying that Louie is stalking her by hiring people to
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: come and poses someone else to get information. I think
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: the whole story is so bizarre, but I think they're
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: pretty bizarre people because wouldn't this piss off Teresa that
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: he's obsessed with his, um, fiance or does he tell Teresa, well,
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: this woman's trying to take me down by saying I'm
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: a narcissist. So I need to get more information about
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: maybe she would reveal something that we could use against her. Um,
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't think that would bode well
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: that my husband was still obsessed with his ex-fiance. Why
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: wouldn't you just ignore it? That's very strange. It's a
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: temporary restraining order. I'm sure he will fight the permanent.
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: But that just came out yesterday, page six. Everybody's reporting
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: on it. But just a very bizarre thing. When I
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: first read it, I was like, I don't know if
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: this is totally true. And then upon further investigation, I'm like, yeah,
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: this sounds pretty true. Then I watched the reunion last
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: night and it's just gotten so ugly. And Louie is,
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: the guys are getting ready. Louie's got his shirt off
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: and his tattoos and he's like, I'm coming out there. Meanwhile,
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: it gets revealed that Rachel, who is the new cast
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: member and she's a stepmother and she adopted her son.
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: And even Dolores says, no, I knew her years ago
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: and she's been wanting to adopt her stepson, now her son,
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: for years because the mother is in prison and has
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: no relationship with the 16-year-old son. She said on the reunion,
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: she said it's her belief, and she acted pretty convincing
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: of her belief, that Louie found, through investigators, found her
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: son's mother in the prison and had her get in
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: touch with bloggers to get her story out to say,
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: I'm not happy with this. I don't want this. But
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: in fact, she never fought it. And that is why
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: the adoption went through. And I'm like, well, this is true.
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: It's not only sad for Rachel. It's not only sad
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: for the boy. But it's sad for the fucked up
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: mother that's obviously struggled in life. She's in prison. She
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: has no relationship with her son. I mean, you know,
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: this is not good either for her. So that's cruel.
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: Then Margaret says, he contacted one of my kids. Somebody
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: contacted one of my kids. and said, I'm the guy
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: on the other line. He said, whoever this was, but
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: we believe it's Louie allegedly, said, I'm the guy you
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: have to worry about. So it was the phone number.
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: They tracked the phone number and the phone number went
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: to Louie. And her kid is very private, never been
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: on the show, doesn't want to be on the show.
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: So this was a problem. And I was thinking, well,
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: what would be the point of that? I guess the
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: point would be that then Margaret being a protective mother
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: would be would say, you know what, maybe I need
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: to get off the show. This is too scary. My
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: kid is now mad at me because he's never wanted
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: this life. I've worked really hard to protect him, and,
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: you know, now what am I going to do? So
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: all so strange. Meanwhile, Teresa's just like, what? Who? Acting's
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: really bad. She and Melissa, of course, get into it.
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: She accuses Melissa and Joe, her brother, of hanging out
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: with Joe Giudice's, her brother, ex-husband who went to prison
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: four years. She went to prison for one. She said,
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: I believe you were part of the FBI investigating us
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: because you hung out with Joe Giudice's ex-partner who eventually,
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: they believe, turned him in. And Melissa was really good.
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: She's like, no, you did the crime. I had nothing
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: to do with it. Then she said, well, Jacqueline, who
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: was a former housewife on the show, Jacqueline told me
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: when we met up in Vegas that that it was
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: you who did it. She's like, I haven't talked to
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: Jacqueline in a year, but I will give you this.
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: She has a text message that Jacqueline sent to this
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: other cast member, Jackie, who is barely on the show,
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: and she came at the end. That's not important. Anyway,
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: there's a text message from Jacqueline talking shit about Teresa, horrible,
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: saying she's manipulative, but she's also dumb and calculating. And
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: then she goes after Teresa's looks and her plastic surgery.
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: And it's a horrible mean message. And Melissa's just reading it.
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: I mean, so awkward. And then Dolores is like, ooh,
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: this isn't going to be good for you, Melissa. You
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: better sleep with one eye open. I'm like, what is this, like, loyalty,
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: mafiosa thing? Because that was the other thing when Teresa
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: married Louis. At the wedding, his whole family is like,
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: you're loyal, you're loyal. And meanwhile, his sister who married
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: them is an eye doctor, but now she's got this
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: app that he co-founded called Forgivity that's all about forgiving.
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: I mean, the hypocrisy of it all, which nobody's going
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: to get this app or whatever, but it's like, you know,
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: they act like he's all spiritual and he does this warrior,
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: you know, male, I don't know, be a better man
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: kind of a situation, go to these things in Laguna
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: with a bunch of guys that are sunburned. And, you know,
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: this whole thing when he sent the video to that,
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: who I assume is this woman, Vanessa. I know this
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: is very convoluted, but it is like really crazy because
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: you realize, I think this is crazy behavior because it's
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: very hard to even find the motivation. And that's why
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: I'm like, wait, is this really true? What would be
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: the motivation behind all of this? And I think the result,
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: we still have one episode left, but I think the
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: result is going to be that to is going to
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: be put on pause. I really do because this is
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: really dark and I don't know how they're going to
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: justify it. And because she's so loyal, I think she's
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: going to believe everything he says. And now they're in
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: this so deep. Meanwhile, the Danielle girl, she's like, was
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: I set up? I don't know. There's so much to it.
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: But this is the really juicy stuff about it. And
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: just really, oh my God, it's like crazy. Anyway, let's
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: move on to something else. I thought this was kind
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: of interesting. Pete Davidson adopted a cute dog and he
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: was seen leaving a The place where he bought the dog.
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: Peter went on and made a statement saying, I wish
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: he would have adopted and not shopped. And he went
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: and left a voicemail for Peter, for the woman that
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: said it, and was like, listen, why don't you do
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: a little research before you put it out there? I'm
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: very allergic to dogs except for this particular breed. So
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: I do need to buy this breed. And the reason
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: we got this dog is because my mom's dog died
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: just last week and the dog was only two. So
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: we were very sad and wanted to get another dog.
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: And the comments are pretty great because I've always thought
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: about this too. I know people say, no, you should
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: always adopt a dog. My dog Raven was adopted. My
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: cat was adopted. They were older pets, however they were
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: It is a pure breed, but it needed a home.
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: And because my dog Raven was seven when we got
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: her during COVID because she was a breeder dog and
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: she was too old to have babies anymore. And so
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: they didn't really have any use for her. And we
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: went and adopted her and now she's having her best life. But,
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: you know, it was kind of interesting that he called
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: them out. And I thought that was pretty good. And
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: then also it's true. I mean, these dogs are born.
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: I mean, they are born. So someone needs to take them.
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: But I get it. It's a huge argument. Don't go
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: get at me. But I just thought the fact that
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: they did say something false and he is really allergic,
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: I thought this is probably one of the best things
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: I think Big Davidson has ever done and cleared something
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: up because it bothered him. So that was good. Harry
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: is going every day. They're suing the, I think it's
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: called the Mirror tabloid, And some of it is really
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: kind of funny that's coming out with Prince Harry. He's
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: saying that they put it out there that he had mono,
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: which is the kissing disease, and everyone was mean to
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: him at his school when they wrote this article that
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: he had mono, and he did have mono, but it's
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: affected him for the rest of his life that he
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: was teased about the mono. I mean, pretty funny. And
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: then he said it's because of this tabloid that he
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: his relationship with Chelsea, who was the really pretty girl
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: that he dated for like, I don't know, six or
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: seven years, blonde girl, that his relationship ended with her
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: because of the articles that they were written. And basically
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: he's saying, I believe my phones were tapped. And that's
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: how they knew about the fights that we'd have and
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: about all this other stuff. They would always write the
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: articles as very good sources or party goes, saw them
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: arguing at a party. The story was that she thought
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: he was flirting with other people, and that's why they argued.
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: Other people or other articles have said, and who knows
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: where it's really coming from, if they really tapped their phones,
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: which is horrible if they did, or if it really
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: was insiders giving stories, or do these people just make
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: this stuff up? I don't really know how it works,
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: but he is going and suing them, and he is
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: in court every day. Meanwhile, Spotify, who paid them $ 25
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: million for their podcast, they just laid off $ 200 people.
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: So the article that came out about that was kind
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: of like, wonder if it's because they overpaid them, but
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: they also paid Joe Rogan a lot. And they paid
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: a lot of people, a lot of money, millions, millions
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: of dollars. So, um, and 200 people is, is just
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: a couple of percentage of their, of their company, but
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: pretty interesting. And, um, let me see. Oh, and Drew Barrymore,
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: this was pretty crazy. So she, Vulture wrote an article
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: about her She did an interview with them, I believe,
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: an interview with Vulture. And she said, you know, after
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: talking to Jeanette McCurdy and Brooke Shields, who had difficult
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: relationships with their mothers who are now both passed, she said,
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: you know, I shouldn't say she wished her mom to
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: be dead, but the way they wrote the article and
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: then the tabloids picked it up was basically that she's like, um, Yeah,
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: I don't have the luxury of being able to grow
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: and recover from this horrible relationship with my mom because
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: she's still on this planet. And until my mom is
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: no longer on this planet, I don't think I can
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: recover from the traumatic relationship I had with my mom.
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: The mom was a stage mom. She's this really pretty
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: woman named Jade. She would take her to Studio 54.
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: She also put her in rehab from 13 to 15
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: or something for two years. During that time at 14,
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: she got emancipated from her parents' And when she got
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: out of rehab, she was like living on her own.
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: And then she got married at like 19 to a bartender.
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: Then she got married to Tom Green. Then she got
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: married to the guy that she had her two kids with.
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: Then she's divorced. Now, of course, she's doing her talk show.
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: And then so Drew then went and was really pissed
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: and did a Instagram video where she's like so mad
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: at the tabloids for taking the quote from the Vulture
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: magazine and making a headline. No, I do not wish
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: my mom to be dead. I would never wish that.
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: But her explanation was not great either. If she was
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: my friend, I would have said what you should say, Drew,
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: and I'll do it in Drew's voice, is what she
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: should have said was, what I meant was, when you
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: have a difficult relationship with a mother, as I have,
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: and it's truly never going to be more than a
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: happy birthday text and, you know, happy Mother's Day possibly, um,
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: And they're in their 70s, as my mother is. I
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: feel that until I can fully heal from this relationship,
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: it most likely won't happen until she's passed. So while
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: she's living here, I still am traumatized by the fact
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: that it can't be repaired. But once time happens and
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: she is passed, I would assume I would be better equipped,
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: like Brooke Shields and Jeanette McCurdy, to recover from it.
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: That's what I think she was trying to say. Anyway,
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: last little thing I'm going to talk about is Elliot Page,
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: who is a man now, a transgender man. He was
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: born as Ellen Page and was the star of the
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: hit movie Juno about a pregnant teen. And Elliot Page,
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: who goes by Elliot Page now and goes by being
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: a man now, has a book coming out called Page Boy.
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: Great title of a book. And in the book, along
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: with him saying that while he was the star of
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: Judah was a pregnant teen girl, he also had sex
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: with his co-star who was a female all the time.
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: That was kind of juicy. But he also says one
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: day in West Hollywood, he was walking into the Pink
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: Dot convenience store in 2020. And this man came out
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: and said, you know, said slurs, homophobic slurs to him
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: and used the F-A-G word or whatever. And it was horrible.
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: And he had to run into the store to be safe. And,
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: you know, that's an awful story, right? That's an awful story.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: But as someone who lives in LA, and I noticed
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: that an account I follow, which is about the most
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: depressing account ever, but needs to be out there, street
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: people of LA, I noticed that they wrote the same
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: thing I was thinking was, yes, that is horrible. Does
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: that happen? Yes. But people... We have insane people walking
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: our streets freely and being insane, and nobody can do
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: anything about it. The police, mental health people, they can't.
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: I don't know. They can't put them in a 5150.
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: I don't know what. But we have crazy people that
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: are scary, walking our streets all the time, yelling out awful,
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: mean things. I mean, there's way worse things that have
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: happened to people walking on streets. And this is horrible,
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: but I'm thinking... It's probably just a crazy person. And
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: knowing that they're in West Hollywood, yeah, is that crazy
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: person homophobic? Absolutely. Is that crazy person an awful person
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: to scream those things? Absolutely. But my initial thought was
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: just like, yeah, I don't think this person saw you
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: and was like, I'm angry. That's Elliot Page, who used
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: to be Ellen. That's my personal opinion. Some people think
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: it's a little Jussie Smollett. I don't. I think this
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: thing happened to Elliot Page and he wrote it in
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: his book. But being that it happened on the streets
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: of LA and the way the story is told, the
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: person does seem absolutely insane. So this is a story
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: that's getting picked up and the book is out and
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: it seems like a pretty juicy book. So with that
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: all being said, I hope you guys see me at
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: the Tempe Improv I will be there on June 16th
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: and 17th with Chris. Frangiola. And then of course, Chris
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: and Justin and I will be at my fabulous show
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: in San Diego, June 24th. Everything is at heathermcdolland.net. Also
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: very exciting will be my Extra Juicy, which will come
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: out Friday because that I will be covering. Everything I
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: knew about Vanderpump rules that I was sworn to secrecy,
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: we will have all now seen the final end of
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: the reunion, and I've got to pick that apart and
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: give all my thoughts. That's going to be on the
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: Fridays Extra Juicy, where you can get it right here,
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: and you can also get it on Patreon, which you
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: go and get that at heathermcdonald.net. So make sure that
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: you get that.
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: All right.
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: Now for my juicy interview, guys.
• 20:35
  Speaker 4: Thanks. Itching.
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: Burning soreness when you know it's thrush you want it
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: gone treat the cause not just the symptoms with caniston
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: combi ireland's number one thrush treatment brand caniston combi pastry
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: and cream contain cotrimazole always read the label number one
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: based on volume sales data To verify, contact info.ireland.bayor.com.
• 20:56
  Speaker 5: I'm Darman, and this is What Happens Next. Each week
• 20:59
  Speaker 5: on the show, I sit down with extraordinary people who
• 21:02
  Speaker 5: have faced tremendous setbacks, and yet somehow have found a
• 21:07
  Speaker 5: way to turn them into their greatest strengths.
• 21:09
  Speaker 4: Life is one long lesson of chaos.
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: I'm heading to the Emmys, and I have police complaints
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: filed against me.
• 21:16
  Speaker 4: When your free will was about to be taken from you,
• 21:18
  Speaker 4: what would you.
• 21:19
  Speaker 5: Do if it was given back? Where did that need
• 21:21
  Speaker 5: come from where you thought that you had to succeed
• 21:25
  Speaker 5: in order to feel loved? He said, I have a
• 21:27
  Speaker 5: work dad.
• 21:27
  Speaker 4: I need a home dad.
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: What happens next?
• 21:29
  Speaker 4: When I came in, he started crying.
• 21:31
  Speaker 5: Everybody in life encounters hardships. What defines them is not
• 21:35
  Speaker 5: those hard moments that they go through. It's about what
• 21:38
  Speaker 5: happens next.
• 21:39
  Speaker 4: I decided to risk it all.
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: I realized how valuable every day was.
• 21:42
  Speaker 4: You're worth the work. Listen, Dara, I'm not going to
• 21:45
  Speaker 4: pull punches.
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: You can use your voice even if it shakes.
• 21:48
  Speaker 5: The stories are different, but the impact is the same.
• 21:51
  Speaker 5: Only one question matters. What happens next?
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. I'm very excited to
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: speak to return guest, but she's also an author, Emily
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: Lynn Paulson.
• 22:11
  Speaker 4: Hey, hon.
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: Hi.
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: So this is a juicy book about your life when
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: you got sucked into an MLM.
• 22:19
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: And you tell it all. And I'm very excited to
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: talk to you. But I just remind people that are
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: hardcore juicy scoopers, I did have you on probably like what,
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: like two years ago?
• 22:28
  Speaker 4: Gosh, I guess so. Yeah, it was 2021. Yeah, March
• 22:33
  Speaker 4: of 2021, I think.
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: You were, you're a USC alum. And unfortunately, you went
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: to the horrible gynecologist that was where you went. to
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: have your exams if you were a student there. And
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: you were so brave and put it on the record
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: and sued and everything else. And that was fascinating to
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: talk to you back then. But you are a married
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: mother of five. You live in beautiful Oregon. And let's
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: get into what happened when you got involved in this skincare, cosmetic,
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: multi-level marketing. How did they just start from the beginning?
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: Because I have so many questions.
• 23:12
  Speaker 4: Yeah. So I had just had my last kid. So,
• 23:16
  Speaker 4: you know, I was a stay-at-home mom with five kids
• 23:18
  Speaker 4: and I'd been out of the workforce for a pretty
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: long time. And my husband had a pretty demanding job.
• 23:23
  Speaker 4: He traveled a lot. So I had this like desire
• 23:26
  Speaker 4: to do something. I wanted to earn money or just
• 23:30
  Speaker 4: contribute in some other way than like wiping butts and
• 23:33
  Speaker 4: changing diapers, right? I just, I craved something else. And
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: getting childcare for five kids was totally out of the question.
• 23:40
  Speaker 4: And so when friend reached out via social media, a
• 23:44
  Speaker 4: friend from high school, and said, you know, hey, I'm
• 23:46
  Speaker 4: meeting friends for wine. You want to come out and meet?
• 23:51
  Speaker 4: I was like, first of all, yes. Like, get me
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: out of the house. I'd love to go out. And
• 23:55
  Speaker 4: she worked for one of those companies.
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 23:57
  Speaker 4: So I knew she was meeting people for, you know, work,
• 24:01
  Speaker 4: quote unquote work. And I had seen some of her
• 24:05
  Speaker 4: posts on social media, and I had been intrigued a
• 24:08
  Speaker 4: little bit. I was I had that feeling, though, of, like, cringe.
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: Like, it's one of those things. Okay, so let's talk
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: about the post. What were the things that intrigued you
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: and what were the cringey ones?
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: So it was the things I was looking for. Like,
• 24:19
  Speaker 4: it looked like she was making lots of money. Like,
• 24:21
  Speaker 4: that looked nice. And she was home with her kids.
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: So were her posts like, just got this new ride? Yes.
• 24:27
  Speaker 4: Or I just went on this trip. That was the
• 24:28
  Speaker 4: other thing. I'm like, oh, gosh, she's going on a trip, like,
• 24:31
  Speaker 4: without her family and with all these women.
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 24:34
  Speaker 4: All this camaraderie. That sounds so wonderful.
• 24:36
  Speaker 5: I know.
• 24:36
  Speaker 4: It sounds so nice. It's like she was in like
• 24:38
  Speaker 4: wine country and it looked really aspirational.
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 24:42
  Speaker 4: You know, it looked like she was succeeding. She had
• 24:43
  Speaker 4: all these friends seemingly. So those things look nice.
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 24:47
  Speaker 4: But what was cringy was the constant. It was like
• 24:51
  Speaker 4: the constant feed of, you know, oh, my business is
• 24:55
  Speaker 4: blessing me with this. Wouldn't you want to join this?
• 24:57
  Speaker 4: Come join my team. All of those things that you
• 24:59
  Speaker 4: see and hear.
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 25:01
  Speaker 4: And, you know, she reached out a couple of times.
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: And so I guess that part of me was like,
• 25:05
  Speaker 4: I don't want to, like, have makeup parties at my house.
• 25:08
  Speaker 4: And I don't want to be the person annoying people
• 25:10
  Speaker 4: in their DMs. So I was a little bit mixed,
• 25:13
  Speaker 4: but I'm like, whatever. She's inviting me out. I'm going
• 25:15
  Speaker 4: to go meet her out. So go out, meet with her.
• 25:19
  Speaker 4: And it kind of was like the perfect storm of,
• 25:23
  Speaker 4: you know, I was drinking wine, so that helped. And
• 25:25
  Speaker 4: there's all these products out. And I was like, oh,
• 25:27
  Speaker 4: those look good. You know, I'm kind of looking for
• 25:29
  Speaker 4: new stuff for my skin. And like, of course, I
• 25:31
  Speaker 4: just had a baby. And so, you know, stuff goes on.
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: You're losing your hair and, you know, your skin's dry and.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: All that stuff.
• 25:38
  Speaker 4: So I thought, OK, these would be good. So killing
• 25:40
  Speaker 4: two birds with one stone. And again, there's all these
• 25:44
  Speaker 4: women there. And I'm like, gosh, if they can do it,
• 25:47
  Speaker 4: maybe this is something that I can do. And again,
• 25:50
  Speaker 4: this was someone I knew. Like I went to high
• 25:51
  Speaker 4: school with her. It's like I know her. I like her.
• 25:54
  Speaker 4: I trust her. she wouldn't lead me astray. And so
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: by the end of the night, I was like, sign
• 25:58
  Speaker 4: me up.
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: And what is the initial sign me up? What's the,
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: what does that entail?
• 26:02
  Speaker 5: Yep.
• 26:03
  Speaker 4: It entails basically signing a form with your social security
• 26:08
  Speaker 4: number and a credit card number. And I paid a
• 26:11
  Speaker 4: thousand dollars.
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: So it's just a thousand. And what do you get
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: for a thousand?
• 26:15
  Speaker 4: You basically get like this kit of products and you
• 26:18
  Speaker 4: can use them yourself. You can sell them. And the
• 26:22
  Speaker 4: reason I got roped into the big one was because
• 26:25
  Speaker 4: You know, there was a few different options. I don't
• 26:26
  Speaker 4: remember what. It was like $ 300, $ 600, $ 900 or something
• 26:29
  Speaker 4: like that. And the bigger package was the bigger discount.
• 26:33
  Speaker 4: The more you spent, the more you got.
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: Got it.
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: And so in those moments where it's like, ooh, I
• 26:38
  Speaker 4: can only get this right now, I might as well
• 26:39
  Speaker 4: get all of it.
• 26:40
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 26:41
  Speaker 4: You know, if I'm going to spend $ 300, I might
• 26:42
  Speaker 4: as well spend $ 600. If I spend $ 600, I might
• 26:45
  Speaker 4: as well, you know, just that like mind game, right?
• 26:47
  Speaker 4: And so I thought, you know, if anything, I'll buy
• 26:50
  Speaker 4: this stuff, I'll use it, and it'll be a discount
• 26:53
  Speaker 4: if I never do anything again. you know, that it'll
• 26:56
  Speaker 4: be worth it. I'll have all this stuff.
• 26:58
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: So you start using products and you like the products.
• 27:01
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 27:01
  Speaker 4: I liked them.
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: And so then when do you start like having parties
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: or recruiting people?
• 27:07
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 27:07
  Speaker 4: So it was the very first night when I joined,
• 27:12
  Speaker 4: I was, you know, I drove home and I didn't
• 27:14
  Speaker 4: want to go home yet because my kids were still up.
• 27:17
  Speaker 4: So I wanted to wait till after bedtime to like
• 27:18
  Speaker 4: get the whole night. And so I met my best
• 27:21
  Speaker 4: friend out And we got some chips and salsa. And
• 27:24
  Speaker 4: I kind of showed her, like, the pamphlets and everything.
• 27:27
  Speaker 4: And she was like, well, if you did this, like,
• 27:29
  Speaker 4: is that something I could do? And she was sort
• 27:31
  Speaker 4: of looking for an escape, too. She was just in
• 27:34
  Speaker 4: the middle of a divorce and all this stuff. And
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: we were like, oh, this would be fun to do together. Like,
• 27:39
  Speaker 4: nothing may ever happen, but it would be fun. And
• 27:41
  Speaker 4: so she signed up that day, too.
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: But now was that girl then under you?
• 27:45
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 27:46
  Speaker 4: Oh.
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 27:46
  Speaker 4: So now you're already a star.
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. Okay. Okay, so now what do you guys do?
• 27:53
  Speaker 4: So honestly, so the next thing that happened was I
• 27:58
  Speaker 4: got announced on social media. So I kind of thought
• 28:01
  Speaker 4: this is something I'm going to do, you know, on
• 28:03
  Speaker 4: the side. I'll try it out. I'm not going to
• 28:05
  Speaker 4: take it too seriously. You know, my friend signed up.
• 28:08
  Speaker 4: We'll figure this out, right? Like I hadn't even got
• 28:11
  Speaker 4: the products to my house yet. Yeah. And then I
• 28:13
  Speaker 4: was tagged in a post by the friend I met
• 28:16
  Speaker 4: up with.
• 28:17
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 28:17
  Speaker 4: And it was like, welcome to the company. And, you know,
• 28:21
  Speaker 4: Emily joined. She's a busy mom of five. It was
• 28:23
  Speaker 4: like this announcement.
• 28:24
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 28:25
  Speaker 4: And I was like, oh. So I kind of got
• 28:26
  Speaker 4: outed on social media. Like my mom texted me and
• 28:29
  Speaker 4: she's like, what did you join? Like what's going on?
• 28:32
  Speaker 4: I'm like, oh, crap. Like I hadn't even told my
• 28:34
  Speaker 4: husband yet.
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 28:35
  Speaker 4: And so it was sort of that uncomfortable like, well,
• 28:38
  Speaker 4: now I guess I have to talk about it.
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 28:41
  Speaker 4: And so I was given all of these like scripts
• 28:45
  Speaker 4: and– like business, business, again, air quotes, things to follow.
• 28:50
  Speaker 4: Like first thing to do, step one, post about your business.
• 28:53
  Speaker 4: Step two, message these people. Make a dirt list.
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: What people? The people in your life?
• 28:57
  Speaker 4: So you make, this is really cringy. I talk about
• 29:00
  Speaker 4: this in the book, but the first thing you do
• 29:02
  Speaker 4: is you make a dirt list.
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 29:05
  Speaker 4: A dirt list is comprised of people who would buy
• 29:08
  Speaker 4: dirt from you. That's why it's called a dirt list.
• 29:11
  Speaker 4: So those are the people who, no matter what you're
• 29:13
  Speaker 4: doing or selling, would buy anything from you. And so
• 29:17
  Speaker 4: you make a list of those people.
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: So that's your mom, your sister. Yes, totally.
• 29:20
  Speaker 4: Your best friend, like whatever, like the best friend I
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: met with. Like she probably would have, no matter what company,
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: what product, she probably would have joined just because it
• 29:27
  Speaker 4: was me, right? So you make those lists and then
• 29:30
  Speaker 4: you're given scripts to send out. Like, hey, hon, that's,
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: you know, the title, hence the title.
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: Hey, hon. Yeah.
• 29:38
  Speaker 4: I know that.
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: We haven't talked in 12 years. Yes. Yes.
• 29:41
  Speaker 4: I don't know if you've seen what I'm doing, but
• 29:42
  Speaker 4: I'd love to pick your brain about my new business.
• 29:46
  Speaker 4: You know, we're the whatever. Number one, blah, blah, blah company.
• 29:50
  Speaker 4: You know, you go on the spiel and, you know,
• 29:51
  Speaker 4: is there a time we can talk?
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 29:53
  Speaker 4: So that you go go on the attack in people's DMs.
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 29:56
  Speaker 4: And then you make another list. It's called your dream
• 29:59
  Speaker 4: team list.
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: Like, I can't say these with a straight face. But
• 30:02
  Speaker 4: it's people who, if you could pick anyone to, like,
• 30:05
  Speaker 4: be on your team.
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: Oprah.
• 30:07
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, totally aspirational. Like, the most famous
• 30:10
  Speaker 4: people you know.
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: Oh, you actually are, it's like.
• 30:13
  Speaker 4: Oh, like, but, like, people who you would have contact with. Like, oh,
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: who does my husband know at work who's got, who's
• 30:17
  Speaker 4: really well connected or something. Oh, okay. So then you, like,
• 30:20
  Speaker 4: write those people down. Okay.
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 30:21
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 30:22
  Speaker 4: And then you just, again, you've got scripts, like, to
• 30:25
  Speaker 4: reach out to them. And you start, again, sending messages,
• 30:28
  Speaker 4: sending DMs, sending texts, sending emails, whatever. Calling people, cold
• 30:34
  Speaker 4: calling people. And getting people to, like, join you. So
• 30:38
  Speaker 4: that's how that starts.
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: Okay. So how many years were you involved in this?
• 30:46
  Speaker 4: Over six. Like, six and a half.
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: And so... Talk about the success. Like when, explain that.
• 30:53
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 30:54
  Speaker 4: So the reason I really got sucked in, and I
• 30:57
  Speaker 4: think the reason I did so well at first is
• 31:00
  Speaker 4: because there weren't a lot of people in my area.
• 31:02
  Speaker 4: I was in Seattle at the time. And this company
• 31:05
  Speaker 4: really wasn't big there. Nobody had really heard of it.
• 31:07
  Speaker 4: There wasn't anybody really working for this company there. And
• 31:11
  Speaker 4: so when I talked to my friends about it, they're like, oh, cool. Sure,
• 31:14
  Speaker 4: I'll try that stuff, right? And so I had that.
• 31:18
  Speaker 4: There was nobody using it. And I had money, and
• 31:21
  Speaker 4: I had a big network of friends with money. And
• 31:24
  Speaker 4: so that allowed me to look like I was succeeding
• 31:27
  Speaker 4: really quickly, even though I wasn't getting a huge paycheck
• 31:30
  Speaker 4: or anything. But you start getting tagged on social media.
• 31:35
  Speaker 4: You start getting all these accolades from the company. You
• 31:39
  Speaker 4: start promoting with all these weird titles, like you're a
• 31:41
  Speaker 4: superstar number eight or whatever, and you don't even know
• 31:44
  Speaker 4: what that means. But you're getting like those dopamine hits.
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: So are you just getting people under you? Are you
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: actually fulfilling orders?
• 31:53
  Speaker 4: There's some of that. But honestly, the products are just
• 31:56
  Speaker 4: a way to get people in the funnel, in the company.
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: Because everything I've read is like it's really, it's not
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: even how many of the products sell. It's that you
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: have all these people that spent $ 1, 000.
• 32:07
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: And then that $ 1, 000 person has, you know, six people
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: under them who bought $ 1, 000.
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: Yep.
• 32:12
  Speaker 4: Because honestly, you never need anybody else to do anything again.
• 32:14
  Speaker 4: If I had just bought the $ 1, 000 kit, my upline
• 32:19
  Speaker 4: would have made money from that and she would have
• 32:21
  Speaker 4: been happy with that. Then she'd go recruit somebody else.
• 32:25
  Speaker 4: And ideally, you want someone who's going to sell and
• 32:27
  Speaker 4: recruit other people because then you earn a commission on that.
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: How much commission do you get for each person?
• 32:32
  Speaker 4: So it's different for each company, but you earn money on...
• 32:37
  Speaker 4: you know, whether it's 10%, 5%, 20%, depends on the company,
• 32:41
  Speaker 4: on anybody who joins you in your downline. So, you know,
• 32:44
  Speaker 4: someone joins me, I earn money on their sales. Someone
• 32:47
  Speaker 4: joins them, I earn money on her sales and those
• 32:49
  Speaker 4: sales below them. So it's this, again, it's a pyramid.
• 32:51
  Speaker 4: So all the sales flow up. So the bigger your
• 32:53
  Speaker 4: pyramid is, the more you make. And so it's all
• 32:57
  Speaker 4: about recruiting. It's about getting as many people as possible,
• 32:59
  Speaker 4: because even if you're just selling product or recruiting people,
• 33:02
  Speaker 4: that's what's important is more people. And when you do
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: buy a product as a customer, which anybody who probably
• 33:08
  Speaker 4: has ever bought from an MLM would know, is you're
• 33:11
  Speaker 4: never left alone. Like, say you buy an eye cream
• 33:15
  Speaker 4: from me or something. I would be in your DMs
• 33:17
  Speaker 4: every month like, hey, do you need to add anything
• 33:19
  Speaker 4: else to that? Anything else you want to try? You know,
• 33:22
  Speaker 4: the best way to get a discount is to join
• 33:23
  Speaker 4: as a consultant. Like, now you're just another target.
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 33:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: And so you don't really have to do the– at
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: this particular company, you weren't doing– the Mary Kay parties
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: or the Tupperware parties.
• 33:37
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I had a party at my house
• 33:39
  Speaker 4: to begin with, like a launch party. I think I
• 33:41
  Speaker 4: did something at first. And then it was like going
• 33:44
  Speaker 4: to retention events. So the other thing that these companies do,
• 33:47
  Speaker 4: and they do it everywhere all over the country, is
• 33:49
  Speaker 4: they have little local events where it's like, come learn
• 33:52
  Speaker 4: about XYZ company. And consultants like me, I would bring
• 33:56
  Speaker 4: friends to it. I'd invite friends to it. And they'd
• 33:58
  Speaker 4: have some speaker who was a consultant who talking about
• 34:02
  Speaker 4: how this company changed their lives. And again, really aspirational.
• 34:06
  Speaker 4: And they'd have products there.
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: And that's like a three-day convention thing?
• 34:09
  Speaker 4: No, these were just like a night, right?
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: Just one evening.
• 34:12
  Speaker 4: Just like an easy couple hour thing. But then again,
• 34:15
  Speaker 4: you're in the funnel. Like you're going to be bugged
• 34:17
  Speaker 4: like every day until you sign up. And you've got
• 34:21
  Speaker 4: this boss babe like on your ass constantly. What'd you
• 34:25
  Speaker 4: think of the presentation? And are you going to join? So,
• 34:29
  Speaker 4: you know, there's those type of things all the time
• 34:31
  Speaker 4: that you really, you know, you're not required to go to,
• 34:35
  Speaker 4: but you're really, it's like if you want to be successful,
• 34:38
  Speaker 4: you've got to show up to these things.
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: And when did that name become so associated with stay-at-home
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: moms or multi-level marketing, the boss babe? You know, I.
• 34:49
  Speaker 4: I don't know. I know it was there when I joined,
• 34:52
  Speaker 4: but I think it came, it came, there was this
• 34:54
  Speaker 4: girl boss.
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: Oh girl.
• 34:55
  Speaker 4: You know, it kind of started with that. And then
• 34:57
  Speaker 4: I think it morphed into boss babe.
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 35:00
  Speaker 4: You know, all these infantilizing like monikers, which you don't
• 35:03
  Speaker 4: hear for men. Like you're a boy boss. Like you're
• 35:06
  Speaker 4: a dude boss. You never hear that.
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: I know. I always thought it was like, yeah, so what?
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 35:11
  Speaker 4: Just like, I'm just a boss. Just call me a boss.
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Like, yeah. And, um, OK, so then what about
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: the like the vacations and stuff that you get to
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: go because you're a certain level? Do you go on
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: like cruises and shit like that? Yes.
• 35:23
  Speaker 4: So that's one thing that's really it's ironic that they're
• 35:28
  Speaker 4: all called like, oh, I earned this free trip. I
• 35:30
  Speaker 4: earned this free thing because you have to earn them. Right. Like,
• 35:36
  Speaker 4: you know, with a normal company, you might get bonuses,
• 35:38
  Speaker 4: you might get a company trip or something like that.
• 35:41
  Speaker 4: But you're also getting paid for a job like during
• 35:44
  Speaker 4: that time. This is just you're doing unpaid labor all
• 35:46
  Speaker 4: the time trying to earn these things. And whether that's
• 35:49
  Speaker 4: like recruit two people and do this weird like dance
• 35:52
  Speaker 4: metric thing. So you have to qualify for certain trips,
• 35:57
  Speaker 4: whether it's, you know, a trip like a cruise. A
• 35:59
  Speaker 4: lot of companies do cruises or a trip to Mexico, whatever.
• 36:03
  Speaker 4: And then they give you a stipend. So they'll give
• 36:06
  Speaker 4: you a certain stipend for like really good. shitty airplane travel,
• 36:09
  Speaker 4: which you always end up upgrading. And then generally, if
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: you're going to go on a trip, you don't go
• 36:14
  Speaker 4: to Mexico for like two days. And so you upgrade
• 36:17
  Speaker 4: and extend a little bit. And it's always a crappy
• 36:20
  Speaker 4: hotel room. And so you like upgrade that. So it's
• 36:23
  Speaker 4: always like the bare bones. And so you always end
• 36:26
  Speaker 4: up spending more money. That's the first thing, like these
• 36:28
  Speaker 4: free trips. And the more I talk to people, like
• 36:31
  Speaker 4: I interviewed a lot of people when I wrote this book,
• 36:33
  Speaker 4: That was the one thing that always came up. It's like, oh,
• 36:36
  Speaker 4: I earned this thing, and it ended up costing me
• 36:38
  Speaker 4: twice as much, or I got a fine from the
• 36:41
  Speaker 4: IRS because I didn't claim it on my taxes, because
• 36:43
  Speaker 4: you're then taxed on it at the end of the year.
• 36:45
  Speaker 4: It's on your income as a payment, basically. Say it's
• 36:51
  Speaker 4: a $ 10, 000 value trip. On your end of year, your 1099,
• 36:53
  Speaker 4: it'll have $ 10, 000 for whatever Mexico trip as income, which okay, great, thanks,
• 37:04
  Speaker 4: but like you can't pay your rent with a Mexico trip, right?
• 37:07
  Speaker 4: So it's not money.
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: So when you're doing this, what are your checks like
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: from this company?
• 37:11
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 37:12
  Speaker 4: So at first they were, I mean, I didn't expect
• 37:15
  Speaker 4: anything at first. And so it's like the first check
• 37:17
  Speaker 4: was like $ 700. And then the next one was like,
• 37:20
  Speaker 4: you know, $ 1, 000. And then, but it was like, I
• 37:23
  Speaker 4: was a stay-at-home mom. I thought that was pretty good.
• 37:25
  Speaker 4: And it seemed pretty easy at first. Like I was
• 37:27
  Speaker 4: just talking to people. But then as time went on,
• 37:29
  Speaker 4: I had to start like putting more money into the system.
• 37:33
  Speaker 4: Because I had to, again, pay a babysitter to go
• 37:35
  Speaker 4: to these retention events. Yeah. You know, I had to
• 37:38
  Speaker 4: buy all this product myself. Then there would be like
• 37:41
  Speaker 4: qualifications for things that your upline would be like, oh,
• 37:44
  Speaker 4: just buy a couple extra sunscreens or something and then
• 37:47
  Speaker 4: you'll qualify. And then there's a.
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: And then you'll hit the level to get the next thing.
• 37:51
  Speaker 4: Exactly.
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: And where are all these products? Do you have like
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: a room in your house or just like a storage?
• 37:57
  Speaker 4: Like a closet, yes.
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: Okay, all right.
• 37:58
  Speaker 4: Like a closet. I mean, and they always say like, oh,
• 38:00
  Speaker 4: you don't have to carry inventory. And it's like every...
• 38:03
  Speaker 4: chick I know who's in an MLM has just closets
• 38:06
  Speaker 4: full of their own products because you are incentivized for
• 38:10
  Speaker 4: purchasing it. You're incentivized for having it for all this stuff,
• 38:14
  Speaker 4: for bonuses, all these things. So, um, so yeah, you
• 38:18
  Speaker 4: qualify for a trip and then, you know, you're given
• 38:21
  Speaker 4: a stipend and it's, you're taxed on it.
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: And I mean, And then are you at a seminar
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: all day long? And is it weird stuff? Or do
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: you have celebrities there? Like, do you get invited to, like,
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: certain dinners if you're the top person? And if you're not,
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: you have to eat in the room or what?
• 38:40
  Speaker 4: You, like, qualify for the parties. And, again, this is
• 38:43
  Speaker 4: another incentive along the way to get people to spend
• 38:46
  Speaker 4: more money, right? Hey, if you buy this thing, if
• 38:48
  Speaker 4: you sell this many things, if you recruit these many people,
• 38:51
  Speaker 4: you'll qualify for this, like, extra fancy super duper sparkle
• 38:54
  Speaker 4: party or the bling suite or this– stupid things that
• 38:57
  Speaker 4: have like, you know, whatever, these names, right?
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: And did you like all these women or did you
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: think they were kind of geeky or what?
• 39:04
  Speaker 4: Like, I mean, I really liked the person I joined.
• 39:09
  Speaker 4: I liked the people on my team. And like the
• 39:11
  Speaker 4: people you generally bring in to join you are your
• 39:14
  Speaker 4: friends and family. So like those were my people anyway.
• 39:17
  Speaker 4: So they were great.
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: Did you ever have to put pressure on somebody that
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: was just like, Emily, like, just please, this is just
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: too much. I need to get a regular job. Tell
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: me about that.
• 39:28
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 39:29
  Speaker 4: So actually the friend who joined me, the first person
• 39:32
  Speaker 4: to join me, and I do talk about this in
• 39:34
  Speaker 4: the book, she, you know, again, got a divorce and
• 39:36
  Speaker 4: like she wasn't, you know, excelling as much as I was.
• 39:41
  Speaker 4: So her paychecks weren't as big as mine. And so
• 39:44
  Speaker 4: she had to get a real job. And at that
• 39:46
  Speaker 4: point I was, I had drunk the Kool-Aid like pretty hard.
• 39:50
  Speaker 4: And so I was like, why are you applying for
• 39:51
  Speaker 4: a real job? Like, why not just put more into this?
• 39:54
  Speaker 4: And that's one thing MLMs do, too, is they really
• 39:57
  Speaker 4: malign like nine to fives. Like, why are you working
• 40:00
  Speaker 4: at a nine to five when you could be your
• 40:02
  Speaker 4: own boss, babe? And, you know, make your own hours
• 40:04
  Speaker 4: and all that.
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 40:07
  Speaker 4: So, yeah.
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: And what did she say?
• 40:09
  Speaker 4: She I mean, she was realistic. Like I you know,
• 40:13
  Speaker 4: this doesn't have health insurance. This doesn't have. you know,
• 40:17
  Speaker 4: a 401k, like this isn't stable. Right. But for me
• 40:21
  Speaker 4: who had a husband who had all those things, like
• 40:23
  Speaker 4: that's not where my mind was. Oh, good point. It
• 40:26
  Speaker 4: was like, and that's why people who really are successful,
• 40:29
  Speaker 4: which again, it's like a 0.00 percentage of people who
• 40:33
  Speaker 4: are successful, they have a second income. They already have money.
• 40:38
  Speaker 4: You know, there's nobody who's at the top who like
• 40:41
  Speaker 4: came off the street.
• 40:42
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 40:42
  Speaker 4: You already have to have a very significant amount of
• 40:45
  Speaker 4: like financial socioeconomic privilege to get in in the first
• 40:49
  Speaker 4: place and to succeed.
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: That is so interesting. A good friend of mine was,
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: you know, got sucked into her friend's MLM.
• 40:58
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: And I used the product too, but I was like,
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: this is, you know, going nowhere.
• 41:04
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: And then that, that person, her husband was like, got
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: diagnosed with cancer or whatever. And so she said, what
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: can I, what can I do for you and your family?
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: And she goes, Just keep pushing the product or whatever.
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: Just keep working on your team. Just keep building. And
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: when my friend told me that, I'm like, this is
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: so wrong. Like you're making 12 cents. I'm like, it's
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: not like this is and you have another thing. But
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: just it's like people will get sucked into it that
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: do are professionals. They do have professional careers and they're
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: just like, yeah, OK, fine, you know. So then when
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: did you start to realize, you know, that it's getting
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: ugly and weird?
• 41:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah. So I think there were things all along the
• 41:54
  Speaker 4: way that I was like, but then you see.
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: What's your husband thinking, first of all?
• 41:59
  Speaker 4: So he was very much like, do what you want
• 42:02
  Speaker 4: to do.
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 42:02
  Speaker 4: Like, good for you. And he saw, like, I was
• 42:05
  Speaker 4: happy and it seemed like I was doing well. So
• 42:07
  Speaker 4: he was kind of like, that's cool.
• 42:08
  Speaker 5: Cool.
• 42:09
  Speaker 4: But he was very much not the boss babe husband.
• 42:12
  Speaker 4: He was like not.
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: What's a boss babe husband dream?
• 42:15
  Speaker 4: So have you ever heard of retiring your husband? Have
• 42:18
  Speaker 4: you ever heard that phrase?
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: Oh, yes. I think I have seen this on these shows. Oh, God.
• 42:22
  Speaker 4: So retiring your husband is not retirement. It is like
• 42:24
  Speaker 4: your husband quits his job and then joins you in
• 42:27
  Speaker 4: the MLM.
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: I remember this from the Lula.
• 42:30
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: Lula Rich.
• 42:31
  Speaker 5: Yes. Yes.
• 42:32
  Speaker 4: So then, and this is, this is perfect for the
• 42:34
  Speaker 4: MLM because now you're screwed.
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: Like you, you have to really can never get out.
• 42:39
  Speaker 4: You have to rely on the income. And so, and it's,
• 42:42
  Speaker 4: I mean, retirement is like sitting on a beach and go,
• 42:45
  Speaker 4: you know, that's retirement is not shilling an MLM. So,
• 42:49
  Speaker 4: but that's like the goal. It's, it's aspirational to retire
• 42:52
  Speaker 4: your husband. And as I got higher up, it was like, why, why,
• 42:58
  Speaker 4: why is your husband still working? Like, it looks bad
• 42:59
  Speaker 4: that your husband's still working. That was the messaging. And
• 43:02
  Speaker 4: my husband's like, fuck you. Like that's the, no.
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: At that point, how much were you making a year?
• 43:08
  Speaker 4: The most I made in a month was $ 40, 000. Okay. Yeah.
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: Significant.
• 43:13
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 43:13
  Speaker 4: And I never made like I made that one month. Yeah.
• 43:15
  Speaker 4: And the rest was, you know, it was like a kind.
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: Of went up, went down. So what was like your
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: best year then?
• 43:20
  Speaker 4: I mean, well, I talk about this in the book
• 43:21
  Speaker 4: too is On paper, you know, I made like $ 400, 000. Yeah.
• 43:25
  Speaker 4: But that's before taxes. So that's the other thing about MLMs.
• 43:28
  Speaker 4: It's before taxes. It's before expenses, which are really high.
• 43:32
  Speaker 4: And anything else, any side expenses, again, like childcare, babysitters,
• 43:37
  Speaker 4: you know, additive things, buying products. And so it was
• 43:40
  Speaker 4: like cut in like a third, right? So, I mean,
• 43:44
  Speaker 4: still great for like a stay-at-home mom. But there's a
• 43:47
  Speaker 4: lot of this like mixed messaging where I was considered
• 43:50
  Speaker 4: a million-dollar earner. Because I had earned a million dollars
• 43:53
  Speaker 4: over that period of time. But when you divide it
• 43:57
  Speaker 4: up over a certain number of years, it's like it's
• 43:59
  Speaker 4: not that much per year, especially if you take out taxes.
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 44:03
  Speaker 4: And that's why all the posts are like, again, super aspirational. Like, oh,
• 44:06
  Speaker 4: I've become a millionaire. It's like, well, that's not really
• 44:08
  Speaker 4: what millionaire means. Making a million dollars over six years.
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: So like what came first? You watching cult documentaries or?
• 44:16
  Speaker 4: Getting out.
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 44:17
  Speaker 4: Yes. So I, so the first thing that happened is
• 44:21
  Speaker 4: I got sober.
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 44:24
  Speaker 4: So I stopped drinking.
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: Now, why did you feel that you needed to stop drinking?
• 44:28
  Speaker 4: I mean, it was a problem and it was really
• 44:29
  Speaker 4: exacerbated by the MLM. Um, it was like something that
• 44:33
  Speaker 4: was kind of already a problem. And then I all
• 44:35
  Speaker 4: of a sudden had all these excuses to drink more
• 44:37
  Speaker 4: because I was like going out with clients and I
• 44:39
  Speaker 4: was going to all these events and there was always
• 44:41
  Speaker 4: champagne and, um, you know, so I was drinking a
• 44:45
  Speaker 4: lot more. I just, it became a problem. So I
• 44:47
  Speaker 4: quit drinking beginning of 2017. And that's when I was like, Oh,
• 44:53
  Speaker 4: like I can't do all the things I've been doing.
• 44:56
  Speaker 4: Like I couldn't send the cringy messages. I couldn't do
• 44:59
  Speaker 4: the cut and paste things. I couldn't post stuff.
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: As a sober person, you couldn't.
• 45:02
  Speaker 4: Yes. It was like, I was all of a sudden,
• 45:04
  Speaker 4: like the beer goggles were off.
• 45:05
  Speaker 5: You were clear.
• 45:06
  Speaker 4: You were clear headed.
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 45:07
  Speaker 4: Like I had totally drank away my intuition about it.
• 45:11
  Speaker 4: And then I really started seeing things I didn't like.
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: And now how many years were you in it once
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: you became sober?
• 45:16
  Speaker 4: So almost three. Okay. And at that point I had
• 45:19
  Speaker 4: like hit the top, like I was at the top
• 45:21
  Speaker 4: of the pyramid. And I really believed at that point,
• 45:24
  Speaker 4: like it was because of my hard work. Like I,
• 45:26
  Speaker 4: I really worked hard, but nobody else.
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: And honestly, how many hours a day or a week
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: do you think you're putting forth? Like all the time
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: you're on your phone looking, All the time. So probably
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: more than probably eight hours a day. Oh, easily. Easily.
• 45:41
  Speaker 4: Because even when I was like with my family or
• 45:44
  Speaker 4: at like the phone was always in my hand. I
• 45:46
  Speaker 4: had to be so connected all the time. I was
• 45:48
  Speaker 4: like at the beck and call of if someone, you know,
• 45:51
  Speaker 4: answered my DM, I'd write right back. You know, I
• 45:54
  Speaker 4: was really, really just I was in. I was very in.
• 45:58
  Speaker 4: So that's one thing I noticed, too, is how much
• 46:00
  Speaker 4: time I was on my phone. And I also started
• 46:04
  Speaker 4: to see like, okay, I had succeeded. I had achieved
• 46:07
  Speaker 4: this like pinnacle, but nobody else I brought in had.
• 46:11
  Speaker 4: And I really believed like, well, they must not be
• 46:14
  Speaker 4: doing all the things until then I was sober. And
• 46:17
  Speaker 4: I was like, actually they are, they're doing everything that
• 46:19
  Speaker 4: I did, but it's not working for them. And I
• 46:21
  Speaker 4: started to see like, oh, mathematically it doesn't work that
• 46:23
  Speaker 4: way because of saturation. And now there's so many people
• 46:27
  Speaker 4: in Seattle who are doing this.
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 46:28
  Speaker 4: And It can't work for everyone, and that's why I'm succeeding,
• 46:32
  Speaker 4: because all of these people are paying in and then not.
• 46:34
  Speaker 4: And they're just continuing to pay in, this sunk cost fallacy.
• 46:39
  Speaker 4: Nobody was succeeding. And even the highest achieving people, it
• 46:44
  Speaker 4: was like they were making a few hundred dollars a
• 46:45
  Speaker 4: month or something.
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: And where is your girl that's ahead of you that
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: initially invited you to the wine dinner from high.
• 46:50
  Speaker 4: School at this point? So I've actually surpassed her.
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: Oh, okay.
• 46:54
  Speaker 4: But she's making money off of me. So financially, she's
• 46:57
  Speaker 4: doing great.
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 46:58
  Speaker 4: But I've surpassed her like in title.
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: Right. So it's really like the goal is you two
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: could get a golden nugget, which is Emily.
• 47:07
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: Yep. Some of yours might be duds. Yeah. Some of
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: them may be rocks. Some of them you'll never hear
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: from again.
• 47:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: But you only need a couple.
• 47:15
  Speaker 4: Rock stars.
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 47:16
  Speaker 5: Yeah. Oh, yeah.
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: Oh, so that's why you never stop.
• 47:20
  Speaker 5: Yep.
• 47:20
  Speaker 4: That's why you never stop.
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: Everybody you meet. It's a numbers game. From the girl
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: selling your shoes to the dyeing your hair to like,
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: you know, at a cocktail party. Yep. It's always on
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: your mind to try to recruit somebody.
• 47:33
  Speaker 5: Yes. Yes.
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: You're never off the clock.
• 47:35
  Speaker 4: You're never off the clock. And you start getting so
• 47:38
  Speaker 4: used to it that like you walk in somewhere and
• 47:39
  Speaker 4: you're like, oh, she'd be really good. Oh, she'd be like.
• 47:42
  Speaker 4: you start seeing people as like walking dollar signs, which again,
• 47:45
  Speaker 4: once I was sober, I was like, that's gross. Right.
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: And then did you ever have anybody that, you know,
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: would call you or share like a sob story and
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: then you still had to try to keep them in
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: the game because you were so trained? Tell me about that.
• 47:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Like people who, again, weren't seeing success and they
• 48:03
  Speaker 4: were feeling like they were spending more money than they
• 48:05
  Speaker 4: were making. And so we'd have all these like platitudinous
• 48:08
  Speaker 4: like sayings like, well, you got to spend money to
• 48:10
  Speaker 4: make money or that's just the rent on your business.
• 48:13
  Speaker 4: Or again, you're like given all your spoon fed, all
• 48:16
  Speaker 4: of these things to say. And, and it's hard because
• 48:20
  Speaker 4: at that point you're like, okay, I've brought this friend in.
• 48:22
  Speaker 4: I want them to do well. I believe I can
• 48:25
  Speaker 4: do that. They can do well. Cause I did. And
• 48:27
  Speaker 4: so like that for so long, I really believed that
• 48:29
  Speaker 4: this was the best thing for people. And then when
• 48:31
  Speaker 4: I saw that it wasn't and it wasn't working, then
• 48:35
  Speaker 4: I stuck around for you know, a lot longer than
• 48:37
  Speaker 4: I think I would have because I felt guilty for
• 48:39
  Speaker 4: roping so many people in.
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: And like, so when did you like actually say it
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: out loud to your husband or whoever, like, I feel
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: gross about this and I want to get the fuck out.
• 48:50
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 48:51
  Speaker 4: So I, I wrote a book in 2019. So once
• 48:55
  Speaker 4: I would say at the end of 2018, beginning of 2019, I,
• 48:59
  Speaker 4: I started realizing, like, I want to get out. I
• 49:01
  Speaker 4: want to be done with this. And so I kind of,
• 49:03
  Speaker 4: I told my team, I told my customers, like, hey,
• 49:05
  Speaker 4: I don't like this anymore. Like, here's what I used
• 49:07
  Speaker 4: to believe. Here's what I believe now.
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: Are you really telling your people this? Yeah. And then
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: does someone above you get wind of it? And they're like, oh, yeah,
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: like this is like a Scientology like well Miscavige comes
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: and knocks on your.
• 49:18
  Speaker 4: Door for sure it was very much like don't quit
• 49:21
  Speaker 4: like okay understand you're not happy but do not quit
• 49:24
  Speaker 4: because if I as long as I'm still there it
• 49:26
  Speaker 4: doesn't really matter what I'm doing I'm holding the pyramid
• 49:28
  Speaker 4: in place right so my upline was like I understand
• 49:31
  Speaker 4: you feel that way totally fine you know just tell
• 49:34
  Speaker 4: your customers like I can help them out I'll help
• 49:36
  Speaker 4: your team you know what I mean so I'm still
• 49:38
  Speaker 4: there I'm not posting anything. I'm not messaging anyone. I,
• 49:41
  Speaker 4: I go into writing. I start going into recovery advocacy.
• 49:44
  Speaker 4: Like that's what I'm doing. And I kind of thought like,
• 49:47
  Speaker 4: I'll just put this on autopilot and still, you know,
• 49:50
  Speaker 4: collect a check till it dries up.
• 49:51
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 49:51
  Speaker 4: That's what I thought. I didn't think I would actually
• 49:53
  Speaker 4: like quit. And, and one thing she kept telling me
• 49:56
  Speaker 4: was like, you built this, you should continue to make
• 49:59
  Speaker 4: money off of it. And, and like I believed that
• 50:03
  Speaker 4: to some extent. And yet also I was like, it
• 50:05
  Speaker 4: was just the circumstances. And like, it was luck really
• 50:08
  Speaker 4: that I got in when I did. So that was all,
• 50:12
  Speaker 4: you know, my book came out, then COVID happened.
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 50:14
  Speaker 4: And all of a sudden I was home. I was
• 50:16
  Speaker 4: completely separated from the MLM. You know, we couldn't get
• 50:19
  Speaker 4: together for anything. We couldn't go to conventions or anything.
• 50:21
  Speaker 4: So there was that separation. I started listening to the
• 50:24
  Speaker 4: dream podcast.
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: So the dream podcast is, I was just, we're talking
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: about it. That is a really juicy one. It came
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: out a couple years ago. What I liked about it
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: is these people did, like, deep dive investigations on all
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: these different MLMs. Yeah. From, like, Mary Kay to Tupperware
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: to some that were, like, from the 80s. Yeah. And, like,
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: they remembered their aunt did it. And, I mean, I
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: don't know if I listen to every single episode, but
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: I listen to a lot. And it was really eye-opening
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: about how you sell the dream. And how some people
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: really get screwed over. Some are, like, funny, and it's
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: kind of a funny, like, oh, that time my mom
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: joined an MLM. Like, it's not all tragic. But some
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: of it gets.
• 51:04
  Speaker 4: Some of it is, yeah.
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: Some of the times it gets to a tragedy point.
• 51:07
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: Okay, so go on.
• 51:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah. So I listened to that. And honestly, I don't
• 51:14
  Speaker 4: know who recommended it to me. I don't know how
• 51:16
  Speaker 4: it came into my, you know, I was skeptical, right? Yeah.
• 51:19
  Speaker 4: And so I thought, well, I'll listen to this. And
• 51:21
  Speaker 4: I was kind of listening because I wanted to prove
• 51:23
  Speaker 4: that like my MLM was different, which is something that
• 51:26
  Speaker 4: a lot of people do. Like, especially if they see
• 51:28
  Speaker 4: this book, they're like, oh, well, my MLM is not
• 51:29
  Speaker 4: like that. But like, spoiler, they're all the same. So
• 51:32
  Speaker 4: I started listening and I'm like, well, that's exactly the same.
• 51:35
  Speaker 4: You know, we do that too. And the next one,
• 51:37
  Speaker 4: exactly the same. And there were so many parallels. So
• 51:40
  Speaker 4: then I started kind of diving deeper. And the other
• 51:42
  Speaker 4: thing that was happening was there was a lot of
• 51:46
  Speaker 4: just really predatory behavior during the pandemic.
• 51:48
  Speaker 3: Like what?
• 51:49
  Speaker 4: Like all of these women who are like, hey, you
• 51:50
  Speaker 4: lost your job, you know, join this MLM or, you know,
• 51:55
  Speaker 4: use your stimulus money for.
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: Stimulus money.
• 51:59
  Speaker 4: There was a lot of that. And actually.
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: So like when the checks would be dropped, they'd be like, hey,
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: today would be a great day to like DM 30 people. Yeah, exactly.
• 52:06
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 52:06
  Speaker 4: People can join you. We had scripts and it was
• 52:10
  Speaker 4: actually the FTC actually cracked down in like gave fines
• 52:13
  Speaker 4: to companies because they were doing this. And also there
• 52:15
  Speaker 4: was a lot of product misinformation, like buy our essential
• 52:19
  Speaker 4: oil and it will cure COVID or use our immune booster.
• 52:22
  Speaker 4: And so there was a lot of that just medical misinformation.
• 52:26
  Speaker 4: So that was, I was like, I can't be involved
• 52:28
  Speaker 4: in that. And then there was a lot of PPP
• 52:31
  Speaker 4: loan fraud. So, you know, the, it was the paycheck protection.
• 52:35
  Speaker 4: So like, say if you, You know, podcasting, like, went under,
• 52:40
  Speaker 4: and you had to pay your employee. Right, right. And
• 52:42
  Speaker 4: so it was, like, you know, helping you pay your employees.
• 52:45
  Speaker 4: That's what it was meant for. MLM reps were excluded
• 52:48
  Speaker 4: from it. Like, you could not do it if you
• 52:50
  Speaker 4: were an MLM rep. But plenty of people did. So
• 52:52
  Speaker 4: if you search any company, like, you can search Pampered
• 52:55
  Speaker 4: Chef or Modere or any MLM company, and you'll see
• 52:59
  Speaker 4: people come up who took out money with the parent
• 53:03
  Speaker 4: company name to, like, pay themselves. Mm-hmm. And there was
• 53:08
  Speaker 4: just so much at that point. And I was still
• 53:12
  Speaker 4: hitting the top title of the company. So here I
• 53:15
  Speaker 4: was doing jack shit. I was doing nothing. And I
• 53:19
  Speaker 4: was so grossed out by everything. And yet I was
• 53:20
  Speaker 4: still achieving. And my team was still like grinding and
• 53:24
  Speaker 4: not achieving. And so at that point, I was like,
• 53:27
  Speaker 4: I'm out. And I fully just terminated my account.
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: And how did you do that?
• 53:30
  Speaker 4: I just had to send in a little form to
• 53:33
  Speaker 4: sign a form.
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: And what about the girl ahead of you?
• 53:36
  Speaker 4: She was not thrilled about it.
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: But she still gets money from the people below you
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: that stay.
• 53:41
  Speaker 4: So they all rolled up to her. Yeah, they rolled
• 53:44
  Speaker 4: up to her. So now she has the title I had.
• 53:47
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 53:48
  Speaker 4: But if you see on social media, it's like all
• 53:50
  Speaker 4: based on her hard work and everything and not because
• 53:53
  Speaker 4: her team rolled up.
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: And then at that point, she was like, well, who cares?
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: I'm going to get your people anyway. So maybe sometimes
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: people do want you to leave.
• 54:01
  Speaker 4: Oh, yeah. And there's definitely like buying out your downline or.
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: What does that mean?
• 54:07
  Speaker 4: Like basically you have someone who's like a me who
• 54:10
  Speaker 4: is like in the way and you could have people
• 54:12
  Speaker 4: direct to you who are working.
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: Who are into it still.
• 54:15
  Speaker 4: Yes. And so that would make your title higher and,
• 54:19
  Speaker 4: you know, you can basically pay them money so they leave.
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: Oh, are you bummed you didn't get paid?
• 54:24
  Speaker 4: No, because I knew, in fact, she offered.
• 54:27
  Speaker 3: Oh, she.
• 54:28
  Speaker 4: And I. How much did she offer? Like $ 80, 000.
• 54:31
  Speaker 5: Okay.
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 54:33
  Speaker 4: And at that point I was like. I knew I
• 54:36
  Speaker 4: wanted to talk about it. So I didn't want to
• 54:38
  Speaker 4: have to sign an NDA or anything like that. So
• 54:41
  Speaker 4: I'm like, no, I'm good. I'm just going to exit.
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: And so what are some of the response of people
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: knowing that you're writing about this? Maybe they're still in
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: something like this. Maybe they're recovering. maybe they really love
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: it and are pissed. Like, are you hearing from everybody
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: or what, what did you get mostly?
• 54:58
  Speaker 4: So it was really at first when I, when I quit.
• 55:01
  Speaker 4: And then when I published the announcement that my book
• 55:04
  Speaker 4: was coming out, it was like, Oh my God, how
• 55:06
  Speaker 4: could you do this? This is such a betrayal. So
• 55:09
  Speaker 4: basically anyone in the MLM, you know, kind of couldn't
• 55:12
  Speaker 4: talk to me anymore, but there are a lot of
• 55:14
  Speaker 4: people in who are like, Oh my gosh, thank you
• 55:16
  Speaker 4: for doing this. Like I see this, I see this,
• 55:19
  Speaker 4: this is gross, this is gross, but they're still involved. Um,
• 55:22
  Speaker 4: But in the last few days, what's been interesting is
• 55:25
  Speaker 4: a lot of MLM people are like, oh, my gosh,
• 55:27
  Speaker 4: I love the book. It's so good. I can't share
• 55:29
  Speaker 4: it on social media because my upline will be pissed
• 55:32
  Speaker 4: or the company will be pissed or whatever. Yeah. So
• 55:34
  Speaker 4: I think there's a lot in here that if you're
• 55:36
  Speaker 4: in an MLM, you will totally relate to. And I
• 55:39
  Speaker 4: think it's important, too, to know, like. There's different ways
• 55:44
  Speaker 4: to do things. Yeah.
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: And we were talking about the celebrity aspect, which I
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: thought was really interesting. Because there are some of these
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: products that I'm like, why is this real housewife selling this?
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: And explain why that happens. Because I thought that was weird.
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: But then you made sense when we talked about it
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: off air. Tell me.
• 56:02
  Speaker 4: So if you're a celebrity, you have an immediate following.
• 56:06
  Speaker 4: You have all these people who are willing to do
• 56:09
  Speaker 4: whatever to be in proximity with you. So if you
• 56:13
  Speaker 4: join an MLM and they can join too, they're going
• 56:17
  Speaker 4: to join you. They're going to do whatever you're doing.
• 56:20
  Speaker 4: So it's like, oh, I'm going to pay $ 500 so
• 56:22
  Speaker 4: I can talk on the phone with the celebrity. I
• 56:25
  Speaker 4: can say I'm on her team. Like there's going to
• 56:27
  Speaker 4: be people who just pay the money just to be
• 56:30
  Speaker 4: close to that celebrity. And so like Real Housewives, you know,
• 56:33
  Speaker 4: the gal who's on Sister Wives.
• 56:36
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 56:36
  Speaker 4: You know, like Britney Spears' mom. Like there's a lot
• 56:38
  Speaker 4: of people.
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: That did it.
• 56:39
  Speaker 4: That did it. Yeah.
• 56:40
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 56:41
  Speaker 4: Because they have an instant following.
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 56:43
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: I remember there was like a... There was this woman
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: who did... Was the valedictorian... Not valedictorian. The college speech.
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: What do you call it? The commencement speech.
• 56:55
  Speaker 4: Commencement speech, yeah.
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: At one of the schools I went to. And I
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: was like, why did this girl get picked? You know,
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: it's just because she like worked... She was a lawyer
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: and like worked for like Hillary Clinton or something. And
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: it was a really boring speech. And then... Afterwards, because
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: we were there because somebody, my friend's daughter was graduating. Afterwards,
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: like we were getting hit up as alumni because she
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: was also part of a cosmetic MLM. Oh, God. And
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: I'm like, really?
• 57:25
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: Like this is the commencement speaker. I mean, I was
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: just like. Tacky. Who went there for her own gain
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: of like, oh, now I'm in these Facebook groups of this,
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: you know, alumni of a bunch of women that, you know,
• 57:38
  Speaker 2: are great. you know, social and fun and have, you know,
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: some money and some brains and like, yeah, it's the perfect. Totally.
• 57:45
  Speaker 4: And you're told to do that. Like join affinity groups,
• 57:48
  Speaker 4: join mom's groups, join whatever biking groups, if you're, if
• 57:51
  Speaker 4: you're into that. And so, and then friend people. So like,
• 57:54
  Speaker 4: you're always looking to like increase your network. And then
• 57:57
  Speaker 4: those people see you post about your stupid products. And it's, yeah.
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: What about when somebody comes in there? Like my husband says,
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: I can't do this anymore because I haven't made any money.
• 58:07
  Speaker 2: And I've already put $ 12, 000 into it. And, you know,
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: we fight about it. And what would be your party
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: line to say to that person?
• 58:17
  Speaker 4: I have heard people tell their downline to threaten divorce
• 58:23
  Speaker 4: because of not being supportive. So that's considered not supportive, right? Like, oh,
• 58:28
  Speaker 4: you don't believe in.
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: What I'm doing. You're a suppressed person in Scientology.
• 58:31
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 58:32
  Speaker 4: So it's really seen as like, well, you don't, you
• 58:35
  Speaker 4: don't support me. You don't love me. So there's scripts
• 58:37
  Speaker 4: around that. Like, here's, you know, here's something to say,
• 58:40
  Speaker 4: like one more month, then we'll qualify for this, or
• 58:43
  Speaker 4: this is how it's improving my life or, or whatever.
• 58:46
  Speaker 4: There's ways to talk around every single objection.
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. I think in the Lou, is it Lou LaRue?
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: Lou LaRue.
• 58:53
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: Lou LaRue. I think in that one was where, or
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: one of the docs or something where they were like, um,
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: Open a credit card line without your husband's knowledge or
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: like do all these things behind your husband's back financially
• 59:08
  Speaker 2: to stay in it.
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: And I do think a girlfriend cult, whether it's an
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: MLM or just– it can be really bad. You know,
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: like even if it's just like– I love this thing
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: I've talked about on the show before where people– this
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: woman wrote a book of how she's like, you know,
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: all these women for so many years that would tell
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: their girlfriends at brunch– Kick him to the curb. You
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: could do better. Come on, girl. It's seen as supportive,
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: but in some ways it's like holding people back because
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: it's like, why? Wait a minute. You know, who else
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: is out there, lady? Take a minute. I don't know.
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: Like just so it's a weird thing. And then you're
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: always like, well, my girlfriend said and, you know, and
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: now you not only have one girl from it, you
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: have like several that are, you know, saying your husband's
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: a dick.
• 59:52
  Speaker 5: Yep.
• 59:53
  Speaker 4: And so you're in. That's why it's culty, right?
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 59:55
  Speaker 4: Because then you're in this. environment where everyone's saying the
• 59:58
  Speaker 4: same thing, doing the same thing. You feel like it's supportive.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 4: You feel like these are the supportive people. So anyone
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 4: out here, even if it's your mom, even if it's
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 4: your husband who is not like believing in you is,
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 4: is gonna feel like they're wrong and you're right.
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: Were there mother-daughter teams?
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 4: Oh, totally. There were mother-daughter teams. There were teams of
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 4: like entire families. There was, there was a lot of that.
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: We talked a little bit about this, but was there
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: some real red flags, aha moments that you were just like,
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: I cannot.
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 4: Yeah, there were red flags all along the way. Like
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 4: they're easy to see looking back, of course.
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 4: But a lot of the like you're not allowed to
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 4: be negative. So it's this toxic positivity of, you know,
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 4: you have your team Facebook page where everyone who's in
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 4: your downline is on there and nobody's allowed to complain. Yeah.
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 4: Because if you complain, that might spread. And, you know,
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 4: you're told, like, what to post on social media. You have, like,
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 4: a list of things you can and can't post about.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: And you're told not to be, like— What can you
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 2: can and cannot post about?
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 4: Well, you, like, are given certain pictures you can post
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 4: and certain language you can post because you don't want
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 4: to— Certain.
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: Pictures, like, that you would take with your family or, like,
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: actual stills?
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 4: Well, yeah, like, of products and stuff like that, right,
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 4: that are, like, approved. And then you can't make income claims, technically. But, like,
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 4: every post you see really is an income claim. It's like, oh,
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 4: I'm on this trip. Look at me. I'm working from
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 4: the beach like that's that is still an income claim.
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 4: But one of the really culty things is like, you know,
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 4: don't be negative. Don't post on social media about like
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 4: how much you hate your job. Don't post about that
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 4: your skin is bad because people will think it's the products.
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 4: Don't post anything like politically because you'll alienate half your audience.
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 4: You're not allowed to even be a person. You're you're
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 4: this caricature of. The MLM, especially the higher you get,
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 4: you're like representing the company in a way that you
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 4: can't even be yourself.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: I mean, were you so freaked out when you saw
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: about the murder of the guy, the Colorado? I can't
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: remember the name.
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 2: The Colorado man, he murdered.
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 4: His wife and two daughters.
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: And she was hardcore in the MLM. She'd just come
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: back from a trip from Phoenix. And her product was Thrive.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 2: And it was like energy, vitamins, patches to like kill,
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 2: make your mood. And everything was about image. And even
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: possibly having that third child was something that looked like
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 2: the ultimate success and perfect family that you have two
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: girls and now he gets a boy. And when they, that,
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: documentary when they show about– can you just look that
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: crime up so I know the names and the documentary
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: because I know people are going to be asking for it.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 2: And the guy was cute and she was cute, but
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: they were living beyond their means. And he had like
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: a steady job but like kind of a capped kind
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 2: of salary. And then she was doing all this.
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 2: And she was getting so into it that that was
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 2: causing them to be a lot in debt.
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: But everything on her social media was exactly what they
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: told her to do, how to present this image. Chris Watts.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 4: Shanann Watts, yes.
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 2: Shanann, Shananna Watts. Was it Shanann?
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 4: Shanann, yeah.
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: Shanann and Chris Watts. And then Chris Watts, even when
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 2: she films, telling him that she's pregnant. And at this point,
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: we know that she's already, I think he already had
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: a girlfriend at that point.
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 4: Suburban Nightmare.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: Oh, the show is Suburban Nightmare.
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: I mean, there's a lot on it, but it is,
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: if you're not that familiar or you want to revisit,
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 2: it is like, I really think that had so, I mean, granted,
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: nothing makes somebody murder their wife and kids, but it was,
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 2: it was an element to their story of this perfect
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: life and not really being honest with each other and
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 2: not being, and being sucked into this whole thing.
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 4: And I mean, the entire documentary is like, because she
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 4: had so much on social media. You know, she had
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 4: she had posted. And that's what you have to do.
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 4: You have to your entire life, like your whole image
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 4: is the company. And, you know, you've got to go
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 4: in your stories all the time because you've got to
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 4: stay relevant and you've got to show your kids. And
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 4: that's one thing I started to get really uncomfortable with.
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: Again, they encourage you to show your kids.
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 4: Oh, yeah. You're very encouraged, you know, because if you
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 4: just post like products, you know, you want people to
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 4: join you. It's you that you want, like you're selling yourself.
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 4: So it's almost like this weird influencer thing.
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: But, you know.
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 4: You're not an influencer. You're selling for this MLM. And
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 4: I didn't like constantly like having to be on stage
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 4: and put my kids on stage. And it's like anywhere
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 4: I went, I'd have to take a picture. And and
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 4: I that's one thing that I, you know, stopped doing. And,
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 4: you know, looking back at it now, like when Facebook
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 4: memories pop up, it's just like, God, it's so sad
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 4: that I felt like I had to be behind the
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 4: camera instead of like enjoying what I was doing because
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 4: it was all to post this aspirational stuff to get
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 4: people to join.
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, even, you know, with my business as
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 2: a comedian, a podcaster and everything, social media is such
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 2: a big part of it. And I'm really grateful I
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 2: couldn't do it without it. I mean, there's a reason
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: why we can do all these things because we have that.
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 5: But. Yeah.
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 2: I mean, there's times where now I'm like, look, I
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: know that we, you know, got to get at least
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 2: one photo. Yeah. So I'm like, the minute the party
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 2: starts or whatever, I'm like, let's take the photo. Do
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: it now. And then I go, I'll look at these
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 2: later tonight. Yeah. I'll send you some if you like them.
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, that's it.
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 2: Because I'm like, I want to enjoy the Memorial Day party,
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 2: but I also am not stupid.
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 2: And if my friend who is a comedian is also
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: going to be on my show next week and, And
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: we do it for each other. We have to post,
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: you know. But I think about just like a regular
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: mom that's now sucked into this and where their kids
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 2: are a thing. Like my kids, I really never featured
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: my kids much. When they were really little, I didn't
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: because I thought that was weird. And then I was like, God,
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: I should have exploited them more. Then I was like,
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: then they were, like, not into it. Now they don't care.
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 4: Now they don't care, yeah.
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: So if there's something funny that's happening, I'm like, okay, fine.
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 4: And you can ask, right? They're old enough that you
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 4: can ask. I think it's with little kids and stuff, like,
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 4: they don't have your, like, they can't give you permission. And, like,
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 4: I use pictures of my kids in, like, my convention presentations, like,
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 4: to make it cute.
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: And, like, Now I'm just like, why? So then you
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: were like a speaker.
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 5: Oh, yeah.
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 2: You were that.
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 5: Yep.
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 2: And what was your speech like?
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 4: So this is the other thing that happened. So once
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 4: I got sober.
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 4: So MLMs are all about the sob story, right? They're
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 4: all about like, I joined.
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 2: I feel like your drinking wasn't that bad.
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 5: Oh, God.
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 4: It was really bad. I'll give you my first book
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 4: and then you can read that and you'll be like, yep,
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 4: you were a shit show.
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 2: So you were like, you had like blackout? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 4: Okay. Like I was a, yeah.
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 4: And nobody else really knew how bad it was. Just
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 4: because you were like, I went to.
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 2: Places and there was champagne. I'm like, I don't even
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 2: get buzzed off champagne.
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 4: Oh, no. So I don't even know what you're talking about. Yeah.
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 4: But like, I drank like before and after. Like, I
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 4: drank a lot.
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 4: So the other thing that happened was, yeah.
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: The convention story.
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 4: Yes. So sob stories are a big thing.
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 4: And because like, the reason I joined.
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 2: Same with like getting like American Idol or America's Got Talent.
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: They always want you to have a story about your
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: dad had cancer or you lost a limb.
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 2: Or people never thought you'd be able to speak and
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: now you can sing.
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 4: Or like even my like, I was a sad stay-at-home
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 4: mom and now I have this business, right?
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 2: So that was yours?
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 4: Well, no, it was until I got sober. And then
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 4: the company's like, ooh, you've got this great story. You
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 4: got sober and you overcame so much. So then that
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 4: became part of like the shtick.
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 5: Okay.
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 4: You know, this business was brought into my life and,
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 4: you know, led me to people who helped me get sober.
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 4: And now I'm, you know, nine months sober or whatever.
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 4: Like I was asked to speak about it. And it's
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 4: really hard because like, I felt very honored and, you know,
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 4: you're taught in early recovery, like be of service, share
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 4: your story. And so for me, I was like, okay,
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 4: that's what I'm doing. But it was done in a
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 4: way that was very, like, I felt exploited, right? I
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 4: felt like my story was exploited. And So as time
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 4: went on, like that's, I felt like I didn't want
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 4: to do that and I couldn't do that anymore. So, um,
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 4: so yeah, I was, I, I was a speaker at convention.
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 4: I was like a keynote speaker and you know, was
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 4: everybody knew who I was. I was like the corporate darling.
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 2: And so when you, um, a couple of questions. So
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 2: speaking of the corporate darling, there is a, uh, like
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 2: I was watching, um, Real Housewives of Salt Lake City.
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 2: And her husband, I believe, was like an executive with
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 2: some type of MLM.
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 2: Whitney Roses. And then they let him go because they
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 2: did this ridiculous scene where they were in their underwear
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 2: like putting paint on each other's naked bodies. And they said,
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 2: this just isn't the image of this like Mormon MLM
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 2: whatever thing.
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 2: Is there ever a place where someone like you that
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 2: would be offered, because you're such a great speaker, you know,
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 2: now we will buy your upline, but we want you
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 2: to make $ 250, 000, $ 300, 000 a year and just be an executive.
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 2: Are there those people?
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 4: I mean, they're all corporations, right? MLMs are all corporations.
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 4: And the people, you know, the CEO, CFO, the VP,
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 4: like they're making lots of money. Okay. And it's, you know,
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 4: then a few people at the top of the pyramid,
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 4: the contractors are making money and everybody else is grinding.
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 5: Okay.
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 4: So it wouldn't behoove them to offer me a corporate
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 4: position when I'm already grinding. Like I'm selling the dream, right? Yeah.
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 4: So it's not that they couldn't. It's just, like, they wouldn't.
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 4: That's where they want people is in the pyramid. Mm-hmm.
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 4: There's only room for a couple of corporate people. But, yeah,
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 4: everyone else is a contractor.
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 2: Okay. Yeah. So when you did leave, did you lose
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 2: followers and stuff? Did they, all the people that were
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 2: under you, like, weird?
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 4: Oh, yeah.
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 4: I mean, there were some people who were, like, so
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 4: between leaving and, like, announcing I was writing a book. Yeah.
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 4: A lot of people were more understanding.
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 4: And then when I wanted to talk about it, a
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 4: little less understanding. So, yeah, it was like a don't,
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 4: you can't talk to Emily anymore, unfriend, blah.
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 2: They were told that. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And was
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 2: that hard?
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 4: Yes and no. Because I feel like I had a
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 4: very long period of exiting and I had talked to
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 4: a lot of people about it. So I had my people.
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 4: Like the friends I brought in are still my friends.
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 4: Even the friends who are still in, you know, still
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 4: my friends. You know, I have friends who are still
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 4: at the very top who, you know, again, like it
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 4: didn't change our friendship. But by and large, most people,
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 4: you know, they can't talk to me anymore because what
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 4: I'm saying is like they can't listen to what I'm
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 4: saying and still do what they're doing.
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 4: Like it's in direct opposition.
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 2: And when so when you start watching these shows about
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 2: real religious cults as well as MLMs, Because I say,
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 2: I swear to God, I think Netflix alone just like
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 2: kind of killed organized religion to some extent for people.
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 2: You see enough of these things and you're like, what
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 2: the hell have I been fed? And same thing with
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 2: something like MLMs. Do you feel that, like, have you
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 2: had people that are like calling from a closet of
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 2: just like, I want to get out. I don't know
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 2: what to do.
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 4: I've had so many people reach out. So many people.
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 4: I mean, when I announced the book, I was like,
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 4: it was very validating because I knew I'd get a
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 4: bunch of hate mail. And it was mostly people who
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 4: were like, oh my gosh, this happened to me, this
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 4: happened to me. And since the book has come out,
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 4: which it's been a day, it's just been all positive messages. Like,
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 4: I could have written this part of your story. I
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 4: could have written this. I was so embarrassed for getting involved.
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 4: It ruined this relationship. It ruined this relationship. People don't
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 4: talk to me anymore anymore.
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 2: And people don't talk to people because they sucked them
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 2: in to something that turned out not to be profitable
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 2: for them.
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 4: And then they're blamed for it.
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 4: So that's the really, really crappy part about it.
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you're right. It's why sometimes people are like, oh,
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 2: do you have a good pool contractor? And I'm like, yeah,
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 2: but I don't know if he'll be good for you.
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's the same thing of referring someone. So
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 2: this is like the ultimate referral. You refer them into
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 2: a career that costs them money, and then they– referred
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 2: people so it's like yeah you are the one to
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 2: blame if it.
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 4: Didn't work and the you know the statistics on it's
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 4: like most people will never make a dime and so
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 4: and and you're just so willing not to look at
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 4: that because again you trust this friend who's and you
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 4: think well she made it so i can make it
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 4: too you just have that hope but it's it's really
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 4: hard because you also you develop these friendships and then
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 4: when you leave it's sometimes people stay in because the
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 4: known is is easier than the unknown. It's like, I'd
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 4: rather stay in and lose money than leave and lose friendships.
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 4: Or I'd rather, you know what I mean? Like that.
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 2: And I also think that's also really sad when they
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 2: go after like military wives and even Mormon moms and stuff,
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 2: because it's, especially with Mormon moms, it's, you know, encouraged
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 2: that you stay home with your kids and everything. So
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 2: this is the perfect thing. And also they just, they're
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 2: used to rejection. You know, if they have to go
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 2: on that To your mission, trying to knock on doors
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 2: and recruit people. Like, that's why I think they are
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 2: successful business people because nothing bothers them. They just keep
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 2: chugging along. So I'm like, yeah, no wonder it's like
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 2: successful for you or whatever.
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 4: Well, and there's a reason that there's a lot of
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 4: MLM people in church communities because they're already, and you know,
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 4: if you're in a church community, like go to town,
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 4: like whatever you want to believe or do, that's great.
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 4: But they're already their own closed environments. And so if
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 4: you're worshiping, believing in proximity with these people who are
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 4: doing the same thing, and then all of a sudden
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 4: they're selling collagen pudding or whatever, you're more likely to be,
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 4: you're more vulnerable to that.
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 2: So when my kid was little, I just remember we'd
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 2: had some activity and sometimes there was this mom there.
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 2: And she was just like, you know, Heather, I've been
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 2: thinking about how much you travel. And I really want
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 2: you to try... Like this vitamin thing. I think you
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 2: will absolutely love it. And it was something that I
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 2: think I heard my friend talk about. I'm like, is
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 2: this an MLM? And my friend was like, yes, but
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 2: I don't sell it. But I did buy it and
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 2: I do like it. And I mean, she was harassing
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 2: me so much that I was like. all right, I'm
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 2: just going to give her $ 200 because I just, I honestly,
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 2: I can't keep going back to this thing. And then
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 2: my husband, I was like, knew that my husband would
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 2: be like, what the fuck? You don't even take vitamins.
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 2: What are you talking about? Like whatever it is. So
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 2: I finally was just had to be really firm and
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 2: I'm like, no, I'm not interested. And I mean, you know,
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 2: that's the rejection, whatever. But I was like, oh, she
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 2: was probably so excited to try to say like, I
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 2: did what you told me.
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 4: Yep.
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 2: Boss babe. And I got the nerve to talk to
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 2: this mom and like, and I've been approached so many
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 2: times like in my life to join churches, to join
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 2: Mary Kay. I remember this other thing that was like,
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 2: I remember this, this was so long ago. Someone called
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 2: me and was like, I have to tell you about
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 2: this thing. Donald Trump's involved in it. And it's a
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 2: way that you can talk on the phone and look
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 2: at the person at the same time.
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 4: Way before FaceTime, yeah.
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 2: And I was like, well, that's never going to happen.
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 2: And I was like, oh, this is just some weird whatever.
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 2: And then we were supposed to meet because I liked
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 2: her anyway. And I was kind of curious about the
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 2: weird thing. And then she flaked and never brought it
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 2: up again. So I'm like, she must have gotten out.
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 2: But she was one of those people that was always
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 2: kind of doing those, a serial joiner, like those things that,
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 2: you know, you would hear about. And yeah, I mean,
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 2: I think it's all just like fascinating. I think so
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 2: many people like want to have friends in a community
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 2: and that's sad too, that they're like, and I think
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 2: it's really, must be really sad when you do finally
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 2: say like, no, I'm not in it or I don't
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 2: want it. And then like, I remember this one girl
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 2: that was doing the Mary Kay and we both had
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 2: a job after college and her mom was a big
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 2: Mary Kay person. And she was like, I'm going to
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 2: quit and just do Mary Kay. And I was like,
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 2: all right. And then she took me to the brunch.
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 2: And it was this woman got up there and she's like,
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 2: the way I live my life is God first, then
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 2: my family or my husband, and then a career. And
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 2: then a career, yeah. And I was like, well, I
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 2: don't even have a boyfriend. But I do believe in God,
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 2: so maybe this is for me.
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 4: You'll make it mean whatever it needs to mean, right?
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 2: And then she was like, What do you think? I'm like,
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 2: I don't know. She goes, well, you know what they say.
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 2: If you wake up in the morning and you're still
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 2: thinking about it, then it's meant to be. Well, of
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 2: course you're going to wake up in the morning and
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 2: still think about it. But I was thinking about like, God,
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 2: get me out of here. And I was like, and
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 2: then back then you had to really keep the product.
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 4: Oh, yeah.
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 2: And my friend was like gorgeous and organized. And she
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 2: had a whole second room in her apartment that was
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 2: like she made it a store. And because then you would, like,
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 2: get a call from a client or whatever.
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and bring it over. And you'd bring it over.
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 2: Oh, I remember the woman, like, I just had a
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 2: client say, hey, I'm going on a beach vacation. I
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 2: need this, this, this. And I just made, you know,
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 2: this amount of money. And so I always thought you
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 2: really were making money, like, actually selling the products. But
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 2: now we really know the truth about it, that you
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 2: really don't make any real money unless you're getting so
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 2: many people under you. But then I just thought about it.
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 2: Once I told that girl, like, no, I'm not interested.
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 2: But then she had a party at my apartment and
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 2: my crazy friend acted like she was interested and kind
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 2: of wasted her time and then wasn't. And she was
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 2: like annoyed. She never called me again.
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 4: She got what she needed out of you. She got
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 4: your network. Like she got your people that you invited.
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 2: You don't think she enjoyed me?
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 4: No, like she probably did. She probably did. But that's
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 4: how you see people, right?
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 2: Right, yeah.
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 4: It's like she got what she needed out of you
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 4: at the time and then she had to go on
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 4: to the next person because you have to. or you're
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 4: not gonna make money.
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 2: The only time I felt that was when I was
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 2: starting as a stand-up and I needed people to come
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 2: to the show in order for me to perform.
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 4: But that's different.
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 2: And I would say something, funny is it? And then
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 2: I'd say something funny and then they'd be like, oh,
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 2: you're so funny. I'd be like, want to come to
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 2: see me at the comedy store at 830 in the
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 2: belly room? And then I'd like get their number and
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 2: then call them a few times. And then once they
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 2: would come. And I was like, oh, thanks for coming.
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 2: And then they would want to be friends. And then
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 2: I was like, well, I don't really need any more friends.
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 2: And I'm doing the same routine tonight. So, yeah, you're
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 2: you're no use to me.
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 4: It's but it's selling a service or a product is
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 4: different than an MLM. Like even like selling this book,
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 4: that's what one of the feedback, like the negative feedback
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 4: is like, oh, well, now you're selling a book and
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 4: making money off of this thing. It's like that's that's
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 4: what being an author is like. Hello. I don't think
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 4: that's no. But like you're providing a service. You're you're
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 4: inviting people one time. You're not asking people to pay
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 4: you to become to train them to be comedians.
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 4: And then asking them to go get people to be comedians. And.
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 4: Like that's a totally different thing. You're inviting people to
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 4: be entertained.
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 2: How weird if that was a new MLM. Oh, God.
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 4: Get five people to teach.
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 2: I mean, there are classes and stuff like that to
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 2: do stand-ups. But again, that's different. You're having an experience.
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 2: You're right. It's like there's really nothing like this except
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 2: like a church situation. Yeah. Where you're expected to pay
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 2: a certain amount a year and always go and recruit people.
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 4: Yeah. And if you leave, like I think that's the
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 4: biggest sign if something is like, you know, not on
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 4: the up and up. What happens when you leave?
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 4: If I were to say to you like, oh, I
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 4: tried being a comedian. It wasn't for me. You wouldn't
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 4: be like, you're dead to me. I can't talk to
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 4: you anymore. You'd have been like, yeah, it's hard.
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 4: But if I say like, oh, you're not in the
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 4: MLM anymore. Like, Heather, I can't. Like, it becomes such
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 4: a part of your identity.
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 2: It can't. We can't.
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 4: Interact anymore. And so when your friend had that party and,
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 4: you know, like that, a friend didn't sign up, like that,
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 4: that was the end, right. Of your relationship. Yeah.
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And you know, I just realized that I really
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 2: didn't know why she stopped calling me.
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I know.
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 2: But I didn't want to sell Mary Kay and then
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 2: neither did the one friend that was lost enough that
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 2: maybe would. Yeah.
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 4: And it's sad. And she's, you know, Like she is,
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 4: who knows if she's still in or whatever, but like
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 4: she'll come to realize that one day. Like, oh God,
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 4: I just like kind of use people as like, you know, numbers.
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 4: People were numbers. It's a numbers game. You're told that
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 4: so often that you really just believe that. Like talk
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 4: to one person. And do you think a.
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 2: Lot of people were like fake friends too? Oh God, yes.
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 2: Like acting like you really wanted to be at this
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 2: person's baby shower and stuff?
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I think it's, it's just getting to
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 4: know as many people as you can. Like, even going
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 4: to an exercise class and, like, starting up a conversation.
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 4: I remember being told, like, anytime you're on an airplane,
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 4: make sure you talk to the person next to you
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 4: and make sure you have samples in your purse and,
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 4: you know, get their info. Yes, everything is about getting contacts.
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 2: I mean, all that is, like, I get it, but also, again,
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 2: you're never off the clock.
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 5: Never.
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 2: It's always just in your head. And then if you
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 2: don't do it, then you feel guilt that you didn't
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 2: do it.
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 4: And you're blamed for it. So that's, again, it's like,
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 4: You can make it if you work hard, which is
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 4: not true because 99.7% of people don't. And if you don't,
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 4: then you can be blamed for it. Well, you must
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 4: not have worked hard enough. You must not have talked
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 4: to enough people. You must not have whatever, fill in
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 4: the blank. You can always say it's someone else's fault.
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 2: What about people that are serial MLM-ers?
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 4: Yeah, like join one and then join another and join another.
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and then everyone's just like, oh, my God, stay
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 2: away from that chick from high school. Yeah.
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 4: I mean, they just have hope that like it wasn't
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 4: that company, that it's the next thing is going to
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 4: be different. And they're searching for something like I was
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 4: like lots of people are. And I think that's where
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 4: you have to step back and say, like, what are
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 4: you looking for? Like, if you're that friend who's got
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 4: the annoying friend, just say, what are you looking for
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 4: when you join these? Like, how does this usually go
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 4: for you? Yeah, not great. You know, are you looking
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 4: for community? Like, let me help you find a different way. Like,
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 4: let's join a meetup group or something. Play pickleball.
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 2: I don't care.
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 4: Like, don't buy into something that has failed you so
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 4: many times. You know, are you looking for money? Let's
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 4: look at actual jobs or actual stay at home, like,
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 4: you know, virtual assistant or something like that. Like there,
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 4: there is a way to fulfill whatever your, whatever that
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 4: need is when MLMs just constantly, it's that sunk cost fallacy.
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 4: Like it's going to work out this time. I've already
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 4: put in this much money. I might as well put
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 4: in more.
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 2: Well, I am excited to take this book on my
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 2: trip going to Hawaii. Um, To join an MLM. It's
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 2: a special Hawaii trip. No, it's Hey Hon by Emily
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 2: Lynn Paulson. Tell everybody where they can also follow you
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 2: as well on social media.
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm everywhere on Emily Lynn Paulson. And you can
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 4: get the book anywhere books are sold.
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 2: And you have your other book too.
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 4: Highlight Reel. So you can find that on my website also.
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 2: Oh, great. Yeah.
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 2: Thanks, girl. Thanks for coming.
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 4: Thanks for having me. Just choose who to reward and
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 4: how much. OptionsCard handles the rest.
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 2: Your team gets one voucher, opening a world of choice.
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 2: They can even re-gift some of the value. One reward.
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 2: Endless choice. Skip the hassle.
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 5: Reward the easy way.