Latest / The Uplifters / Lisa Congdon Decided to End It Before It Ended Her

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Lisa Congdon Decided to End It Before It Ended Her · The Uplifters

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  [music]
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  SPEAKER_03: Hey, Uplifters, you know how much I love experimenting and trying new things.
• 0:09
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• 0:55
  SPEAKER_03: It's jointheTryb.com, T-R-Y-B.com.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to The Uplifters podcast where every week I talk to
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_03: an inspiring midlife woman who's doing big,
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_03: brave things in the world and sharing the hard parts and the fun parts and
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  SPEAKER_03: the little tricks and tools she's developing to help herself keep doing big,
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_03: brave things.
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  SPEAKER_03: Today, I am like beyond delighted to talk to Lisa Congdon,
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  SPEAKER_03: an artist whose work I admire immensely and whose work has had
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  SPEAKER_03: a really powerful impact on me.
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  SPEAKER_03: It wasn't until I launched this podcast that anyone ever asked me,
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  SPEAKER_03: what colors make you feel something and what shapes and artists move you?
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  SPEAKER_03: And as I started looking at The artist of the world that I most enjoyed and
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_03: that I returned to again and again, it was artists like Lisa because...
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  SPEAKER_03: If you know me,
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  SPEAKER_03: you've probably described me as like joyful,
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  SPEAKER_03: playful, fun, kind of silly, probably uplifting, that's the name of the show.
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  SPEAKER_03: And Lisa's work makes me feel all of those things.
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  SPEAKER_03: And I might think I'm a little bit weird,
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  SPEAKER_03: you know, like we live in a world where cool is romanticized and I'm not super cool.
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  SPEAKER_03: I'm more on the warm side.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_03: But apparently there are a lot of us who feel this bright,
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  SPEAKER_03: luscious joy because Lisa has been wildly successful for her colorful graphic style
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  SPEAKER_03: and her exploration of themes of joy, liberation, and inclusion.
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  SPEAKER_03: Her work is fun.
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  SPEAKER_03: It is meaningful.
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  SPEAKER_03: It is energizing.
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  SPEAKER_03: It is experimental.
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  SPEAKER_03: And the way she shares it just brings us into her world and makes us want more.
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  SPEAKER_03: I make a vision board for myself every year in December,
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  SPEAKER_03: along with folks who attend our retreat to say, okay,
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  SPEAKER_03: what like in the whole clutter of all the things we might do or are curious about
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  SPEAKER_03: and interested in, what do we really care about?
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  SPEAKER_03: And every year I challenge myself to put a few names on my vision board
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  SPEAKER_03: of women I'd really like to talk to for the podcast this year is I want to talk
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  SPEAKER_03: to them, but because I also think you'll want to hear from them.
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  SPEAKER_03: And Lisa's name was at the top of this list this year.
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  SPEAKER_03: Did it mean she was more likely to say yes to my invitation because I put it there?
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  SPEAKER_03: No, but I was more likely to ask her because I put it there.
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  SPEAKER_03: And that's really the whole thing, right?
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  SPEAKER_03: Is getting ourselves out of our heads and into action.
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  SPEAKER_03: Tell you a little bit about where you might have seen her.
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  SPEAKER_03: So she makes art for all sorts of big name clients, including the Library of Congress, the U.S.
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  SPEAKER_03: Postal Service.
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  SPEAKER_03: Her stamps are so freaking cool.
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  SPEAKER_03: Wired Magazine, Amazon, Google, Warby Parker, a Peat's Coffee, which I love.
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  SPEAKER_03: REI, MoMA, my favorite art design store ever.
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  SPEAKER_03: She exhibits internationally with incredible solo shows.
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  SPEAKER_03: She's also the author of 10 books.
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  SPEAKER_03: So you've probably seen her books at MoMA and in your favorite gift shop and
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  SPEAKER_03: at your favorite bookseller.
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  SPEAKER_03: You'll hear a bit about how this journey began and where it's headed
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  SPEAKER_02: next in
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  SPEAKER_02: the course of this conversation.
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  SPEAKER_03: Lisa recently has made some big shifts in her personal and professional portfolio.
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  SPEAKER_03: So we're going to talk today about her journey.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_03: About the love and joy in her work.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_03: But also what it looks like to close doors and end chapters
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  SPEAKER_02: with intention and integrity.
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  SPEAKER_03: So with that overly long introduction,
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  SPEAKER_03: which hopefully made you feel a little bit of the love and appreciation
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  SPEAKER_03: that you pour into all of us.
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  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for being here, Lisa.
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  SPEAKER_02: Oh, thank you for having me.
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  SPEAKER_02: That was really lovely.
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  SPEAKER_02: I think we all need people to like,
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  SPEAKER_02: we are like hype people,
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  SPEAKER_02: like once a year,
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  SPEAKER_02: even just to sit and listen to somebody talk about what your work means
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  SPEAKER_02: to them is like really special.
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  SPEAKER_02: So thank you.
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  SPEAKER_03: Well, thank you.
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  SPEAKER_03: It really has meant a lot and it continues to find me in new ways.
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  SPEAKER_03: And I do think that part of the challenge of being a creative person in
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  SPEAKER_03: the world is you put work out in hopes that it will have impact
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  SPEAKER_03: and it can feel like there's a lot going out,
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  SPEAKER_03: but not necessarily getting to experience
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  SPEAKER_02: what that's meant for others.
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  SPEAKER_02: So it's real joy to get to do that here with you today.
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  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
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  SPEAKER_03: So let's start at the beginning of your career and do sort of
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  SPEAKER_03: the drive-through version of how you even came to where you are now.
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  SPEAKER_03: I know you started as a teacher.
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  SPEAKER_03: So take us all the way back and look at the art first.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm gonna give you the TDLR version so that we don't get too in the weeds.
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  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, I am 58 years old.
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  SPEAKER_02: So I was born in 1968.
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  SPEAKER_02: I graduated from high school in 1986 and from college in 1990,
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  SPEAKER_02: right on track as all good girls, good Gen Xers did.
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  SPEAKER_02: And I didn't really know what I wanted to do when I graduated from college.
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  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's sort of normal now,
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  SPEAKER_02: but at the time it's like, You know, you have to be on a track for something.
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  SPEAKER_02: And so I took a year to try to just figure it out.
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  SPEAKER_02: And I decided that I wanted to go back to school to become a teacher.
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  SPEAKER_02: And I went to grad school, got my elementary education degree.
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  SPEAKER_02: I love kids.
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  SPEAKER_02: It seemed like a career path that you went to school and you got a job.
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  SPEAKER_02: And that's exactly what happened.
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  SPEAKER_02: And I did that for about at least 10 years around there.
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  SPEAKER_02: And then in the meantime, the school where I worked, I got this big grant.
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  SPEAKER_02: This was during the Clinton years, but there was a lot of money in education.
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  SPEAKER_02: I got plucked from the classroom to manage the reform effort that was happening at
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  SPEAKER_02: the school with this money that we had gotten.
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  SPEAKER_02: I worked in a Title IX school.
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  SPEAKER_02: It was pretty poor and inner city school in San Francisco.
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  SPEAKER_02: And Just kind of fell in love with the work.
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  SPEAKER_02: And that work was the first time I was really exposed to ideas of privilege
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  SPEAKER_02: or racism or systematic racism inside of systems,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know, like school systems and things like that.
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  SPEAKER_02: And I was really lucky to work for an organization that really opened my eyes to all
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  SPEAKER_02: of those things.
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  SPEAKER_02: And the work that we did was really based on And creating a more equitable system
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  SPEAKER_02: for kids to move through,
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  SPEAKER_02: especially kids who didn't come with all the advantages that many of us did.
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  SPEAKER_02: So I did that work for a long time outside the classroom.
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  SPEAKER_02: And while I was doing that work, I kind of felt this dearth of creativity.
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  SPEAKER_02: Like I'd always been somebody who had a creative hobby of some kind or another,
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  SPEAKER_02: never really considered myself an artist.
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  SPEAKER_02: And then eventually...
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  SPEAKER_02: I got the bug to start taking art classes because I think teaching first grade,
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  SPEAKER_02: which is the grade that I taught before I got plucked from the classroom,
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  SPEAKER_02: was super creative, right?
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  SPEAKER_02: Like you're always doing art with the kids or trying
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  SPEAKER_02: to make learning experiences interesting for children.
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  SPEAKER_02: But once I left the classroom and started working for this organization and had
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  SPEAKER_02: an office job, I was like, what am I even doing?
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  SPEAKER_02: And I realized how important creativity was to me.
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  SPEAKER_02: And again, this was in the 90s.
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  SPEAKER_02: In no universe would I ever have done or imagined that I could do what I've done for
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  SPEAKER_02: the last 20 years.
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  SPEAKER_02: But at the time, I was like, I'm just going to take some art classes.
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  SPEAKER_02: I want to get better at making art.
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  SPEAKER_02: I want to explore creativity.
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  SPEAKER_02: And I took photography classes and I worked for a photographer for a while on
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  SPEAKER_02: the side and I took some painting classes and Just kind of fell in love with making.
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  SPEAKER_02: And this was around the early 2000s.
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  SPEAKER_02: So the internet was becoming a space for people who were makers,
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  SPEAKER_02: like the DIY movement that kind of feels like a thing of the past right now.
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  SPEAKER_02: Was just starting and people were starting blogs.
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  SPEAKER_02: There was no social media yet, but there was Flickr.
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  SPEAKER_02: There was, you know, all these places for creative people to connect.
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  SPEAKER_02: So I started a blog and I started sharing stories and started writing.
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  SPEAKER_02: And I also started sharing pictures of the stuff that I was drawing and painting.
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  SPEAKER_02: And slowly I kind of started to think of myself as an artist,
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  SPEAKER_02: even though I had this full-time job.
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  SPEAKER_02: And for a while, those two things worked in tandem.
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  SPEAKER_02: You know, I would go to work during the day and do this cerebral work.
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  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I was really passionate about it, but it was pretty cerebral.
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  SPEAKER_02: And then I would go home and at night and on the weekends, I would be creative.
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  SPEAKER_02: And I was single at the time.
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  SPEAKER_02: And so I turned my whole apartment into an art studio and I was sewing
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  SPEAKER_02: and taking pictures and doing all kinds of things.
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  SPEAKER_02: It was pretty all over the place.
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  SPEAKER_02: And then I started sort of like imagining myself doing this all of the time.
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  SPEAKER_02: And so I tried to figure out like,
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  SPEAKER_02: what could I do that would pay me enough money that I could actually leave this job,
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  SPEAKER_02: this job I loved, but To do this thing that I think I loved even more.
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  SPEAKER_02: And so I started doing some research and I was also meeting other creative people at the time.
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  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of them were like, yeah,
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  SPEAKER_02: you could make art,
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  SPEAKER_02: be a gallery artist, but maybe commercial art is a way you could make a living.
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  SPEAKER_02: And so I sort of set my eyes on becoming an illustrator and I took drawing classes
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  SPEAKER_02: and started drawing more and I was really lucky in that very beginning of
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  SPEAKER_02: that journey to find some mentors.
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  SPEAKER_02: And eventually, I got representation through an agent.
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  SPEAKER_02: And that's kind of where my career started.
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  SPEAKER_02: And that was about 20 years ago, around the same time I also opened an Etsy shop.
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  SPEAKER_02: So that was my foray into retail.
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  SPEAKER_02: This was in around 2007.
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  SPEAKER_02: And...
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  SPEAKER_02: Literally every year since then,
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  SPEAKER_02: I have built on what I started then and grew my business to the place
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  SPEAKER_02: where it is now, where I'm actually scaling back at this point after 20 years.
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  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, it's been a really incredible journey.
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  SPEAKER_02: And I count myself really lucky that I was kind of a pioneer in that space.
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  SPEAKER_02: I was one of the first people to build this art career that was based on
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  SPEAKER_02: the internet,
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  SPEAKER_02: Places like Etsy,
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  SPEAKER_02: which at the time were designed for people who were making things with their hands
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  SPEAKER_02: and who were,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: very small businesses and doing some commissioned illustration work,
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  SPEAKER_02: doing some gallery shows.
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  SPEAKER_02: And also eventually I started writing books.
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  SPEAKER_02: And so I was very like early in that space,
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  SPEAKER_02: an early adopter of using the internet to kind of diversify my income and
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  SPEAKER_02: And figure out a way that I could make a living as an artist.
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  SPEAKER_02: And now I teach other people how to do that.
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  SPEAKER_02: And now it's much more difficult to do that because while
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  SPEAKER_02: the playing field is wide open, there are so many more people in the playing field.
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  SPEAKER_02: And so making a name for yourself and getting noticed is increasingly harder and harder.
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  SPEAKER_02: And you have to jump through lots more hoops than I had to jump through.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: But So yeah, that's sort of like the short version of a copy story.
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  SPEAKER_03: Decades of your life.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_02: It's so weird to summarize, but yeah.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_03: It's probably pretty validating too, to take a moment and reflect.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_03: Reflection is one of the habits most linked to happiness for that reason,
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  SPEAKER_03: because so often we're just like going,
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  SPEAKER_03: going, going, and we don't take a moment to be like, Damn.
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  SPEAKER_03: I described it in my newsletter today as, damn girl, you booked and busy.
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  SPEAKER_03: But all I was thinking about was the work I didn't get 20 years ago.
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  SPEAKER_03: And so it felt like, oh, I suck.
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  SPEAKER_02: Doing terrible now with some distance.
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  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, man, that was a lot.
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  SPEAKER_02: It was a lot.
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  SPEAKER_02: And also,
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  SPEAKER_02: it seems like yesterday,
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  SPEAKER_02: it's almost like I can reach back and touch Lisa 20 years ago.
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  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
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  SPEAKER_02: And yet so much has happened since then.
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  SPEAKER_03: And it's pretty remarkable when I think about it.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's amazing.
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  SPEAKER_03: One of the most fascinating things about your story to me is
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  SPEAKER_03: that you didn't see yourself as a creative.
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  SPEAKER_02: And I think many people
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  SPEAKER_03: see themselves as some idea of not a creative.
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  SPEAKER_03: So for somebody who is Who is reconciling their own creative urge or who is trying
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  SPEAKER_03: to tap into a Their identity as a creative.
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  SPEAKER_03: I hear in your story already a few ideas,
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  SPEAKER_03: which are like,
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  SPEAKER_03: go take some lessons,
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  SPEAKER_03: learn some things,
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  SPEAKER_03: put a bunch of creative stimuli in your space,
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  SPEAKER_03: make it really easy to access it,
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  SPEAKER_03: use it over and over, start making choices that guide you toward doing more of it.
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  SPEAKER_03: But what do you say to people who are just beginning to consider a creative identity
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  SPEAKER_03: or a creative career?
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_02: I love everything you just said.
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  SPEAKER_02: So thank you for paraphrasing all of my life lessons.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean,
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  SPEAKER_02: I think ultimately what holds people back,
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  SPEAKER_02: and I think in particular women, is this sense that like, well, A, it's too late.
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  SPEAKER_02: Maybe I could have done this when I was 20 or 30 or even 40, but maybe not now.
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  SPEAKER_02: And B, that I'm not Nothing's ever going to happen with this or I'm not good enough
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  SPEAKER_02: or this like sort of diminished sense of self.
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  SPEAKER_02: And I think my advice isn't necessarily just to think more of yourself because
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  SPEAKER_02: that sort of feels forced sometimes,
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  SPEAKER_02: but rather to be gentle with yourself and acknowledge that thinking of yourself as
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_02: a creative person or building a more creative life is actually pretty radical
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  SPEAKER_02: in this day and age.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_02: Especially when you're in midlife because it's not what other people expect you
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  SPEAKER_02: to do necessarily and it's certainly probably not what you expected of yourself,
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  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_02: And it takes a lot of courage to show up and learn new things.
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  SPEAKER_02: I was having dinner last night with a friend who,
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  SPEAKER_02: I think she's about,
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_02: she's my wife's age and she's about 52 and she just went through a divorce
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  SPEAKER_02: and she started dating and she's trying to give herself Or put herself in situations
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  SPEAKER_02: where she's learning new things.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: Because for the first time, she's not attached to this other person.
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  SPEAKER_02: They were together for 20 years.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: She's not in a relationship.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_02: And she really, I think she recognizes that she's in this unique position.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I think a lot of women in middle age are in this position,
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  SPEAKER_02: whether you've just gone through a divorce or not,
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  SPEAKER_02: like maybe the kids are gone or you got laid off or your kids, correct?
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: Right, exactly.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: You're in a new place in your career where maybe you have more freedom
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_02: and flexibility and you're trying to figure out what you're going to do with it.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so she's like taking guitar lessons and she just signed up for a welding class
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: and she's really excited about it.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: But I think I'm also sensing that she's a little bit like nervous.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_02: Like I think people use the term imposter syndrome a lot.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_02: I think that term is a little problematic,
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: but I think it's, but that's a whole other podcast episode.
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  SPEAKER_02: But I think this idea that like,
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  SPEAKER_02: who am I to do this thing that maybe deep down I never thought I could do or But
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  SPEAKER_02: if we eliminate the expectation to do the thing perfectly,
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  SPEAKER_02: the creative thing that you're going for,
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  SPEAKER_02: and just allow yourself the experience of doing the thing,
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  SPEAKER_02: that's where the happiness and the joy and the growth is gonna come from.
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  SPEAKER_02: It's not gonna be drawing the thing perfectly or playing the guitar perfectly
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  SPEAKER_02: or welding the perfect sculpture.
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  SPEAKER_02: It's like the experience of trying something Making mistakes,
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  SPEAKER_02: figuring it out, using your brain in new ways.
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  SPEAKER_02: That's where the joy is going to come from.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah,
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  SPEAKER_02: it's scary sometimes because we're afraid of judgment or even maybe our own judgment
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  SPEAKER_02: or not being able to do something as well as we hope.
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  SPEAKER_02: But I guarantee there isn't one person who's gone or one woman who's
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  SPEAKER_02: at 52 years old who's gone and tried
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  SPEAKER_02: And so it is,
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  SPEAKER_02: as you said earlier,
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  SPEAKER_02: when you were sort of recapping some of the lessons that you got from what I said,
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  SPEAKER_02: was like putting yourself in the path,
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  SPEAKER_02: on the path, like showing up, taking classes and
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  SPEAKER_02: You know,
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  SPEAKER_02: holding yourself accountable for doing that thing and classes are a great way to do
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: that because you pay for something and then you need to show up for it.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't know, I think so much comes from the experience versus the result.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, yeah,
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_02: maybe you'll get really good at doing something and have
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_02: a hobby that's really satisfying and maybe you can even monetize
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_02: that thing eventually, but that's not really the goal.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_02: The goal is to just like, And it's really the process that is the most important, I think.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: I love that both as an objective and
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_03: And as an outcome.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_03: But then you showed us, oh no, it's not too late.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_03: As long as you're learning,
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_03: as long as you are alive and able and willing to go and try something new and
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_03: to put yourself into different environments
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_03: with different people doing different things, it's not too late.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's like you
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_02: have to find your why.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_02: I've been an artist most of the last 25 years.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_02: And so There isn't a creative endeavor that feels super intimidating to me,
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_02: but there are other things in my life that I try that feel out of my comfort zone
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_02: or hard.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_02: And so people who follow me know that I'm also in my 50s,
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_02: got really into cycling and racing bikes and doing off-road racing,
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_02: which is kind of dangerous and hard depending on where you're riding.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_02: And recently,
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_02: when I first started working with a coach,
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_02: all I saw was progress because when you start from not having worked with anyone
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_02: before or,
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_02: you've never pushed your body that hard before,
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_02: of course,
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_02: like every week you're going to have a PR or you're going to be able to do something
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_02: that you've never done before.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_02: But there comes a point,
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_02: and this happens in creativity as well,
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_02: where you're just going to plateau and you're not going to get the gold medals
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_02: on your, you know, On your Training Peaks account or your Strava.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: And that's happened to me now because I've been doing it long enough.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, oh, what is my why?
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not doing this because I can't do this forever because I always think I'm going
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_02: to become a faster, more technically savvy cyclist.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: That's happened.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_02: But there are other reasons why I ride a bike.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like I ride a bike for community and like being with other people,
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_02: like I ride a bike because it makes me feel alive.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_02: I ride a bike because I get to be in nature and that makes me so happy, right?
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I get to ride a bike because...
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_02: Afterwards, I can eat endless amounts of food.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I also love eating because you're so hungry after you ride.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: And so figuring out what is my why now with cycling has become so important.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_02: And to a certain extent,
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: I have to do that with art too because I've really peaked in my career already.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm like, all right, what is it about?
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_02: I've done all the things that I wanted to do.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_02: So what's my why for my career now?
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_02: What am I going to focus on?
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: It might look different than it did 10 years ago.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's another thing that I think people can do is really kind
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_02: of investigate, reflect on, why do I want this?
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_02: Why do I want a more creative life?
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what do I want to get out of it?
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_02: How do I want to feel?
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_02: And what do I want to experience?
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_02: Versus what's the physical outcome, which at some point isn't going to matter anymore.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_03: I think so much of this midlife journey teaches us to reevaluate our measures
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_03: of success because so many of them,
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_03: first of all, were just assumed from other generations or from society.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_03: Others we adopted because they were right for that time.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_03: And we just, for whatever reason, we come to believe that Oh, this isn't going to change.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_03: Like my body's going to change.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_03: The tree outside my window is going to grow.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_03: Things are going to change.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_03: But we assume that like our measures of success have to stay the same.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_03: And so I love that answer.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_03: For you, what were your measures of success in let's kind of chapter this last 20 years?
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_03: What felt like meaningful success and growth?
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_02: I think I was so ambitious and I was almost ashamed of how ambitious I was.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_02: I remember there was this really cool company that was selling these sweatshirts
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_02: that said ambitious.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_03: And I remember I bought one and I wore it and
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: it was like me leaning
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_02: into this identity as somebody who actually wasn't ashamed that she wanted
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: to be successful.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_02: And so for many years, I was ambitious, but I was almost a little bit ashamed of my ambition.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: I think we're socialized, especially as women, to be ashamed of ambition.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I wanted, I remember in the early days, I would make these things.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_02: Mind maps,
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_02: they're not really,
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_02: it wasn't like a vision board where I would like cut things out of magazines,
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_02: but like I would draw a map of everything I wanted to accomplish in my life.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe part of that is because I didn't really start until I was in my late 30s.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: And so I was like, okay, I've only got 20 or 30 years to do this.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm gonna do it.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_02: I need to like, maybe there was a sense of urgency there.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_02: I've always been a pretty goal-oriented person, even in my former career.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_02: And so I was like, I'm going to translate this to my art career.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_02: What do I want to accomplish?
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: And there were things like publish a book or illustrate for this magazine or have
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_02: a gallery show, blah, blah, blah, all on this piece of paper.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_02: And then that started happening for me.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_02: I really...
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_02: I could see what I wanted and I worked really hard to get the things.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_02: And some of the things took years.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_02: None of it happened overnight.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't like I was manifesting all the things like immediately.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_02: Some of them took a really, really long time.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_02: But I eventually sort of ticked off all the things.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_02: And that was a pretty traditional view of success.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_02: I also ended up building and expanding my retail business,
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_02: which initially wasn't on my You know, ambitionless at all.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_02: I would add things as, you know, I tick one thing off.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_02: I would be like, okay, now I want to do this.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I want to win an American Illustration Award.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I want to, you know, be able to pay my employees this much money.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, always had new goals that I was thinking about.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_02: And then I reached a point where I had sort of done all of those things.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_02: And they were,
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_02: many of them were very satisfying and meaningful,
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_02: but like anything that Anytime you do a thing that you're proud of,
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_02: you feel proud of it and you maybe revel in it for a while, but then it's gone.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's in the past.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's over.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I kind of found myself,
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_02: I think in the last five or six years in particular,
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_02: I really like kind of hit the apex of my career.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_02: And then I started to think, well, what now?
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_02: And do I want to keep setting the bar higher?
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_02: Do I want to keep doing things?
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: Or am I actually getting comfortable with having done those things and maybe fading
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_02: into the background a little bit?
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't mean that in a bad way.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't a matter of my self-esteem.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_02: It was more just like, I've done the things.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_02: And now I want to live a quieter life because a lot of those things required
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_02: that I was like the face of my business and on the internet constantly.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know,
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_02: I built this very large social media following and like was very prolific and,
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_02: was like churning out work like crazy and working with all these big name clients.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_02: And that was all really great, but it was also pretty exhausting.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I started to burn out.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_02: And then I thought, like, I don't actually need or want these things anymore.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_02: So what's next for me?
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_02: And so the last,
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_02: I would say,
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_02: two or three years of my life in particular have been
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_02: about figuring out what is next for me and my goals
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_02: and ambitions
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_02: look very different now.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_02: What do they look like now?
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_02: In scientific terms, a balanced HRV.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: I like it.
• 27:38
  Yeah.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: Heart rate variability.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_02: Which basically means you're healthy and calm because you're not in a state of fight
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_02: or flight constantly, which I was often in service of these ambitions.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: And more flexibility and spaciousness in my life.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_02: I spent the last 20 years like really often feeling like I was running on
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_02: a hamster wheel that I couldn't get off of.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_02: And the other people depended on me,
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_02: including my employees who I love and customers and clients.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I wanted a day where not every,
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_02: like I'm a person who really loves and responds well to structure,
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_02: but I wanted a structure that allowed for reading a book while I ate my lunch
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_02: or taking a long walk in the middle of the afternoon or going as I did this morning
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_02: on a long path.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_02: I just craved those kinds of things.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_02: And in the last couple of years,
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_02: I've experimented with allowing more of that flexibility into my life.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_02: And then just recently, I made some major changes so that I could have more of that.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_02: I also want more time to just be creative and figure out,
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_02: given more time and flexibility, what kind of art can I make?
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_02: That I've never either had time for or the brain space to create.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I still don't know what that is, but you cannot be creative in a closed system.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_02: You have to have a certain amount of openness,
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_02: which is why when we're in the shower or on an airplane or falling asleep at night,
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_02: we have our best ideas because we're in this sort of liminal space where...
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_02: We're just sort of stuck there.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_02: And so we have sort of, you know, our brain like gets really creepy.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_02: Wanders.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_02: And because we're not focused on,
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_02: you know, being somewhere, doing the thing or finishing the deadline.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so, yeah,
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_02: I think I'm not ready to not work anymore,
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_02: but I definitely am looking at a life where I have more downtime
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_02: and more relaxation,
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_02: whether it's Making art or riding my bike or reading a book,
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_02: which by the
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_02: way, are three of my favorite things to do.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_03: And so it's really reprioritizing your day around the things that bring you
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_03: the most infusions of,
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_03: ironically, maybe interestingly, what your work infuses into your audience.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's like practicing what I preach in many ways.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_02: And that feels...
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_02: Really, really good.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I think I realized somewhere in there that I was living a life
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_02: that often felt antithetical to the stuff that was most sort of closely aligned
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_02: with my values.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_02: I started working with a business coach in 2020.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: And 2020 was the year that things really blew up for me.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_02: And it's actually only six years ago, but I'd had a very successful career up until that point.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_02: But things got crazy during the pandemic for me.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_02: I sell joy and hope in my art.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_02: My art is about those things.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_02: And people wanted that and needed that.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_02: And where a lot of businesses failed during the pandemic because
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_02: of supply chain issues and other, you know, things, I really like had this boon.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_02: And at the same time,
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_02: I was like,
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_02: ironically, like,
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_02: so I've never been so burned out, sad, tired,
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_02: exhausted in my whole life because I was doing so many different things,
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_02: selling things and then also getting brand collaborations based on,
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_02: you know, those values.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_02: And yet I felt like I wasn't actually living the values because I wasn't feeling joyful.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_02: And that was a breaking point for me.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_02: For whom everything is based on your values.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I have this product that I made a few years ago before this all happened,
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_02: which is a deck, a values deck.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_02: And so I had been doing values work for a really long time.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_02: I was very aware of what my values were.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_02: This was not new for me,
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_02: but nobody really sat me down and said,
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_02: is the way you're living your life aligned with your values?
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_02: Asking me that over and over and over again until I was like, no.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: And then I had a real like, for lack of a better term, come to Jesus with myself about that.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_02: And in 2022 is about two years,
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_02: it took me about two years to get off the hamster wheel is when I started making
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_02: a lot of the changes that led to the big change that I just made.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_03: Well, and like...
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_03: I would say our core tendencies are rooted in service and purpose.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_03: And it's what makes us fucking amazing.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_03: And it makes us impactful.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_03: And we drive so much of our sense of identity and personal value from serving others
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_03: and having a strong purpose.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_03: Like we hear in your story from day one as a teacher, how you lived out those values.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_03: And it's very easy to hear in this story how eventually
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_03: if there's too many audience members,
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_03: too many collaborators,
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_03: too many employees,
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_03: too many masters you're serving and offering value to,
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_03: there's literally nothing left for Lisa.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, in fact, it's funny, the thing...
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_02: I had been in the back of my mind sort of wanting to close my retail business,
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_02: which is the thing I just did after 20 years.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_02: I had been thinking about doing it for a couple of years,
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_02: but it was like a fleeting thought that excited me.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_02: But then I was like,
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_02: I can't do that because I employ these two women who love their jobs,
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_02: do an amazing job,
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: have worked so hard to build what we've built, you know, all those things.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_02: I can't let them down.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_02: They rely on me for their benefits and these good salaries that I pay them.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_02: And it took so much processing with both friends and my coach to really get to
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_02: the place where I understood that I had to put myself first in this situation and
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_02: that ultimately it was up to me to do this and that they were going to be fine.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember I was so nervous to tell them.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_02: They were so wonderful,
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_02: of course,
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_02: and kind of approached the closure of the business with the same amazing work ethic
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: and perspective that they've had in their jobs,
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_02: you know, and really supported me in this.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_02: I think they could tell that I needed to do this once I said it out loud.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_02: I think that was a perfect example of like,
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_02: I could have gone on for several more years doing this thing
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_02: that I didn't really want to do anymore for them and never knowing
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_02: that they would be completely fine.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_02: In fact,
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_02: one of my former employees,
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_02: I think,
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_02: indicated to me that she felt liberated because it gave her the opportunity
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_02: to go do something different that she might not have otherwise done.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_02: And she's also older, also in her 50s.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_02: And that it was actually,
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_02: I think she didn't use these words,
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_02: but I think it was a gift for her because it's forcing her to sort of like get out
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_02: of her own comfort zone and like try something new and figure out what's next
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_02: for her in her life.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_02: And it's always a gift to other people when you honor your own needs.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_02: And this was such a important lesson in that for me.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_03: There's some really interesting research about sustainability of purpose.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_03: And it shows that the people who give others the responsibility
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_03: to sustain their well-being end up being able to sustain their own impact long.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_03: And I hear that in your story,
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_03: that you gave your team the gift of not staying because they were comfortable and
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_03: And not staying because they love and admire you and want to be a badass employee
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_03: for you.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know,
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_03: I say all the time that getting laid off is the greatest thing that ever happened
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_03: to me.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_03: Didn't think that in the beginning.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_03: I had an inkling, but...
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_03: Wasn't sure.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_03: And now I can say it unequivocally.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_03: We don't talk in our society.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_03: We talk so much about opening doors and beginning new things.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_03: And I think we just don't talk enough about how to close doors,
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_03: to normalize that as a part of a journey,
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_03: but also to think about how to do it,
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_03: as I said in the beginning, with integrity and And with intention.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_03: And so as I watched you and social media and your wonderful newsletters guide us
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_03: as your audience through the closing of this chapter,
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_03: I was like,
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_03: this is somebody who is thinking about how to close a door in a way that opens doors
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_03: for others.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_02: That means a lot to me.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_02: This was a really hard decision for me and I spent a lot of the end of last year
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_02: in tears and in an insane amount of stress and anxiety.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, ironically,
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_02: I decided to close the business because I sensed that my nervous system was headed
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_02: in a direction that wasn't sustainable and that I needed to do something different
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_02: to take care of myself.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I was sort of wracked with worry about how this decision was going
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_02: to impact other people,
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_02: including my audience,
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_02: that it was going to come as a huge surprise to people because if you look at me
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_02: from the outside,
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_02: it's like thriving business,
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_02: you know, showing up, doing the work, happy team, doing the work with me.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_02: Like we were thriving.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_02: This wasn't just optics,
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_02: like I had a business that I could have continued to,
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_02: you know, to push into the future.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_02: And yet I was like,
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_02: recognize that deep down it's not what I wanted anymore
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_02: because I wanted all these other things like spaciousness and flexibility.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_02: And there just wasn't a way that I could think of to continue the business
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_02: and have those things that I really wanted for myself.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_02: And so I remember when I told my business coach, Nina,
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_02: about this decision,
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_02: she said to me,
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_02: we can make a plan for this where you roll this out in a way that feels gentle
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_02: and feels like a big hug and not something abrupt or
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_02: You get to own the narrative around this choice.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_02: And yes, you feel stressed out now, but you're doing this for all the right reasons.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what you need to talk about because ultimately that's what people need to hear.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_02: And so we worked a lot and talked a lot together about what the real reasons were
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_02: and how both how could I tell my staff when it was time to tell them?
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_02: And then how could I tell my collaborators when it was time to tell them?
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_02: And then how could I tell my audience?
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_02: And what were the key messages?
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_02: What were my truths about this transition that people would understand?
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_02: And how could I say them in a way that people could understand?
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_02: And how could I do it with love and intention?
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_02: And really as a celebration of all the things we had done over
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_02: the last 20 years together, And it ended up being a really beautiful experience.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, like I was getting emails from people that were like,
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_02: everything from like, I've been in business for 25 years.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_02: I really have wanted to do this and you give me courage that I can do it too.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_02: It never occurred to me that I could do this thing.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_02: So as you mentioned,
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_02: it's like I was giving other people permission also to like close their business
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_02: or shift their business with intention to live the more To live a life
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_02: that was more aligned with what was most important to them.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_02: To other people who are like, I can tell this is painful for you and you're so brave.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_02: And this is so inspiring to me.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm so sad, but I totally get it.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_02: Like every single message I got was some different positive message.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_02: Supportive message.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_02: And not one person, I'm not saying there weren't people who were like, fuck her.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_03: But I don't know why anybody would say that, but like... Those were
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_02: probably not your people.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's about them, not me.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_02: But like, there wasn't one person who didn't get
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_02: And support.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_02: And at least when they wrote to me, express love or admiration.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_02: And this also happened on social media and in response to my newsletters and my Substack.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_02: And it's really just affirmed for me that,
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_02: living with intention through your values and being honest with people is always
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_02: the best path.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_02: And now I'm so like glad that I did what I did.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_02: That I didn't let fear prevent me from making this move.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you can certainly imagine a history in which you said,
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_03: this is too much, I'm overwhelmed, I'm just closing the doors.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_03: You can imagine a history in which you said,
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_03: this is going to hurt everyone, so I'll just keep going.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_03: And it would have slowly...
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_03: Died because your love and energy wouldn't be abundant or into it.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's like I wanted to end it before it ended me.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_02: Like I wanted to end it in a,
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_02: before I got to the place where I was like,
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so burned out, like owning a small business sucks.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_02: Like none of that was true.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_02: The resentment.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_02: The resentment and the like, and I didn't, yeah, like that's not the legacy that I'm leaving.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I kept my shop open.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_02: I'm only selling like limited edition prints that are on the pricier side.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_02: So they sell less often.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_02: There's just less variety.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_02: But I kept a shop and like I've made sales not every day,
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_02: but like I've been shipping things every couple days.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_02: So people are still buying things for me.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know,
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_02: part of what I the gift that I get to give now is like,
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_02: That I'm still offering things for people to buy and I'm going to continue
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_02: to release new things.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_02: And that I'm actually packing and shipping them myself
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_01: because I haven't done that in years.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_02: And like I get to write little love notes to people who buy things for me.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_02: And it kind of feels like it did when I first started,
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_02: like going back to the beginning when I was only getting a handful
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_02: of sales every week in my little Etsy shop,
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_02: you know, and that I did everything myself and got to really personalize myself.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_02: My interactions with people, that feels really fun too.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_03: There's so much I take from that.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_03: And one of the ones I wanna just reinforce for everyone listening,
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_03: again, this modeling I think is really powerful.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_03: Like be the change you wanna see, right?
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_03: Like if you wanna live in a world where people close things with integrity,
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_03: take the charge to be the model of that by looking to others who do.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_03: But I think that one of the biggest ones I took from you is
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_03: the paradigm shift you landed on, that this isn't an ending.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_03: But a celebration of a journey.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_03: And that just,
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_03: I think,
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_03: changes everything about how you tell the story,
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_03: how we as the audience perceive the story.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_03: The second one is this idea of we talk about integrity and I'll paraphrase that now
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_03: by saying that it didn't feel jarring or disconnected from how you'd shown up
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_03: for 20
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_02: years.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_02: It felt like an extension of that.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_03: And so when we feel like there is a this or that,
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_03: a black or white way of approaching something, there's like, I can...
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_03: Keep going or I can stop it.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_03: I think when we see in your story over and over again that there are third ways and
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_03: that they are the ways that as you are shipping these and you're saying,
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_03: no, I'm still offering things.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just doing it in a new and different way that costs me less and on every front
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_03: and allows me to reprioritize the things that matter most to me.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_03: And so as you're now in this next phase, right, like most of the closure has happened.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_03: And as you enter this next stage of working on your book, I mean,
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_03: to celebrate you here for the fact that there was a freaking bidding war
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_03: over your book, my editor, I know, bid on it and didn't win it.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_03: I still fantasize,
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_03: just so you know, Lisa,
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_03: that your It's Not Too Late work will end up on the cover of my book somehow, right?
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we should talk because I do
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_03: do book covers.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, yeah.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_03: I keep planting the seed at Hachette.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_03: I sent my editor that art and I'm like,
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_03: you know, just saying there's an artist who knows how to do this.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_03: But you're working on a book and playing with these new zones of creativity for yourself.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_03: What's really lighting you up and energizing you now that you do have space?
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_03: To invest more in a new version of things.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'm still figuring it out.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_02: I think that like, it still feels so fresh.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's been one month of no employees and my new schedule,
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_02: which I'm still,
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_02: it's funny,
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_02: I was, I did this 100 mile bike ride with three of my best friends two weeks ago.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_02: And we all spent, had like a slumber party the night before at one of their houses.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_02: And then we left from her house and We did this epic ride together the next day.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_02: And at the dinner table the night before the ride,
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_02: one of them said, tell us how you're feeling, how it's going.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, oh, I feel a little lost.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_02: I'm somebody who responds really well to structure.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_02: Side note, my book, Is for mostly adults with ADHD.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_02: So we can talk about that in a second.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_02: But, you know,
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_02: I am a person who has a neurodivergent brain and like really responds well to sort
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_02: of knowing what's next and like having structure in my day.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_02: So as much as I crave spaciousness and flexibility,
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_02: when it comes down to it, like I have to create a new structure for myself.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I was saying that like,
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_02: I don't mean this in a,
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_02: I wanted to make sure they knew that like,
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_02: I don't mean like that I'm coming down on myself and that I must have a schedule
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_02: where I'm being very productive.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_02: That's not what I meant at all.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's more like developing a structure that looks maybe like on Tuesdays,
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_02: I come and just make art all day.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_02: And that's my job on a Tuesday.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_02: And that's my expectation for myself.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe for an hour at lunch, I respond to emails.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe on Wednesdays, I write in the morning, I work on my book.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_02: So that I have a new plan or schedule for myself that makes me feel calm
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_02: because I know what I'm doing.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_02: But that schedule,
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_02: that structure includes more time for creativity,
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_02: giving myself a full hour at lunch so that I can read my book while I'm eating
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_02: and things like that.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_02: That the structure looks different,
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_02: but it's still like, it is possible, like both can be true, right?
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_02: You can be somebody who needs to have a certain amount of structure in her day
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_02: in order to feel centered and grounded and also have more spaciousness
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_02: and flexibility.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_02: And those are things that I'm trying to figure out what that looks like right now.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_02: I'm really interested I'm working on a book with Bridget Watson Payne,
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_02: who is my former editor at Chronicle.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_02: I published a bunch of books with Chronicle and we have become so close over
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_02: the years and worked so well together that when she left Chronicle
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_02: to do her own thing, she was like, someday we need to write a book together.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's what's happening.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm also working with my friend Emily McDowell on a class that we're going
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_02: to launch in January of 2027 for people who own
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_02: Artists who own product-based businesses, which we both have.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_02: And Emily, like me, let hers go and she now just does coaching.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_02: But one of the greatest experiences that I've had in
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_02: the last few months is working intensely with these two other middle-aged women
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_02: as collaborators on these two projects.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_02: And just the joy I find in Going in a deep dive on a topic with another person
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_02: who also nerds out over that same thing.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_02: They're both so easy to work with, so kind, so collaborative, so respectful, so little ego.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_02: I'm having an appreciation for my ability to continue to work with other people.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_02: Even though I'm sort of taking a break from client work
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_02: and I no longer have employees,
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_02: like I have these two role models in my life of like other middle-aged women
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_02: who I'm collaborating with who are just such a joy to work with.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_02: So that's been a real pleasure on both those projects,
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_02: just not doing something by myself and doing something with somebody
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_02: that I have also been working with Emily for years on things and we just,
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_02: our minds work really well together.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's been a real joy,
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_02: doing things like I did this morning, like, you know, taking my bike for a ride.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_02: In the woods,
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_02: before work on a Thursday and getting to leave early when there's a WNBA game on
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_02: the East Coast that starts,
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_02: at five o'clock in the afternoon,
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_02: leaving work early so I can go home and watch a basketball game on TV.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_02: Like just stuff like that that I never did before.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_02: I never allowed myself to do before because I had employees and they were here
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_02: and I needed to be a role model and show up for them and I'm a free agent again
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_02: and I can kind of do whatever I want.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_02: And that feels so fun.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_03: I love that.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_03: One of the questions I ask every guest as we end the show is how we can uplift
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_03: and support you and your work right now.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_03: And it's such an interesting question for you at this stage because it's not like go
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_03: and buy things on my shop.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_03: But what do you need right now in terms of support?
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_02: That's so cool.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you can follow me on social media or on Substack,
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_02: and we can link to those things if people don't already follow me.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_02: I've been really into writing essays lately about my life and about the transition
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_02: that I'm making on Substack, and I love having people read them and comment on them.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_02: As we talked about, I'm also writing a book.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's called The Art of Finishing Things,
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_02: Actually Useful Productivity Tools for Artists, Misfits, and Eccentrics.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_02: And it doesn't come out for a while,
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_02: but obviously when it comes out,
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_02: if you are It's a book that has been such a joy to write because it is so affirming
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_02: to write about and to an audience that identifies as the thing that I was so ashamed
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_02: of for most of my life.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_02: And to like really own that thing and to talk about it in a way
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_02: that feels empowering and like instead of being flawed that I actually have
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_02: a superpower.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_02: And I think those of us who,
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_02: you know, I'm not on the autism spectrum, but I'm definitely on the ADHD spectrum.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_02: But for people who are neurodivergent,
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_02: like I think,
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_02: you know, we spent most of our lives feeling like there was something wrong with us.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_02: And to be able to write a book about
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_02: About that thing from the perspective of somebody who's lived it.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like, yes, here are some strategies that are going to help you get things done more easily.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_02: But also, you can not choose to not do that thing anymore.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's also a strategy to say no.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's also a strategy to be gentle with yourself.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_02: So what I love about this book is that it's like coming from the perspective
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_02: of somebody who Who has really struggled with a lot of the things
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_02: that neurodivergent brains struggle with and has come to a place
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_02: of real peace around it.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what I really want to impart to other people.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_02: So if you're one of those people, look out for that book.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_03: We are your people and we will totally read this book and maybe we can do like
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_03: a little book club situation or something.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_03: So let's talk again as it gets closer.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_03: Lisa, thank you so much for being such a model for integrity and living in values.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_03: And for all the beautiful work you put into the world that brings so much joy
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_03: and sparks so much hope.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_03: It was an absolute delight and a pleasure to talk to you.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for having me.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_02: This was one of the most fun podcast interviews I've ever done, and I've done a lot of them.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_03: For those of you listening, find Lisa and I both over on Substack.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_03: I'm at theuplifterspodcast.com,
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_03: which is my Substack,
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_03: and I'll link to Lisa's as well, along with her social so you can follow her.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for listening to The Uplifters Podcast.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_03: If you're getting a boost from these episodes,
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_03: please share them with The Uplifters in your life and then join us in conversation
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_03: over at theuplifterspodcast.com.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_03: Head over to Spotify,
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_03: Apple Podcasts,
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_03: or wherever you get your podcasts and like, follow, and rate our show.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_03: It'll really help us connect with more uplifters and it'll ensure you never miss one
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_03: of these beautiful stories.
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_00: Big love.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_00: Painted water sunshine with rosemary and tongue.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_00: Dwell I'm not perplexing, though you find it vexing.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_00: Toss a star and hover, be your own best lover.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_00: Relish in a new prime, plant a tree in springtime.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_00: Dance with idle hindsight, bring the sun to twilight.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_00: Lift you up, whoa-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_01: Lift you up.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_01: Lift you up.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_01: Lift you up.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_01: Lift you up.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_01: Do do do.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_01: Do do do.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_01: Beautiful.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_01: I cried.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's that little thing you did with your voice.
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_01: In the pre-chorus.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_01: I was like... Mommy, stop crying.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_01: Mommy, stop crying.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_01: You're disturbing the peace.