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The Endless Job Hunt · Humanity Working

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_02: So the first thing you have to understand before you network is what is it you're selling?
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_02: And now again, we back up from there.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_02: I have to sell?
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_02: Uh my God, I'm a podcast host, I'm a chemist, I'm a professional.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_02: I don't sell, I'm not in sales.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_02: You're in sales.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: Everyone's in sales.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: Hi everyone.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: In today's episode, Paul sits down for a second time with Dr.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: Charles Michael Austin, otherwise known as Dr.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: Chimnez.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: This time to talk about his book, 101 Ways to Find Work and Keep Finding Work for the Rest of Your Career.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: Whether you're currently looking for work, trying to grow in your existing role, or just interested in how the world of work is changing, you're going to find this conversation helpful.
• 0:44
  unknown: Dr.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: Chenez holds a doctorate in organizational leadership from Pepperdine University, and for the past 20 years he has worked with clients all over the world advising leaders and managers on how to be more effective and how to use social media to reach their target audiences.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: He also trains workers how to market themselves in the gig economy.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: He also teaches a wide range of courses in business, leadership, and communication.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: This podcast is brought to you by Billion Minds.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: Billion Minds helps companies be ready for the future of work by developing adaptable, resilient employees.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: You can learn more about them on LinkedIn or by visiting billionminds.com.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: And if you like this episode, please like and review us on your podcast app.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: All right, let's get started.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: All right, I am here in what is a bit of a landmark uh time for our podcast, our first return guest.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um we've actually got Dr.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: Charles Michael Austin, otherwise known as Dr.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: Jazz, who many of you remember from a previous episode.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: But I'll uh I'll give him his uh his due introduction here.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: Now, Dr.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: Jazz, you sent me a uh a bio.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: It is long enough to take up the entire rest of the podcast.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm just gonna list a couple of highlights.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so Dr.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: Charles Michael Austin, otherwise known as Dr.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: Jazz, holds a doctorate in organizational leadership from Pepperdine University in Malibu, California.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um for the last 20 years, he's worked with clients all over the world advising leaders and managers on how to be more effective, how to use social media to reach their target audiences.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: He also trains workers on how to market themselves in the gig economy.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: Now he's been a college professor for over 20 years, teaches a wide range of courses.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, if the book we're about to discuss today covers some of that, um, but he teaches a wide range of courses in business, leadership, and communications.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and he has presented papers to the National Association of Women MPAs, Association for Business Communication for Communication, and a whole bunch of others that are too long to list here.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he also has a TEDx talk.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we will provide links to all of the things that I'm mentioning here, by the way.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, two books on self-marketing, like treating yourself like a business and behaving like an entrepreneur, and uh a series of three courses that he writes and teaches on LinkedIn learning.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: And we'll also include the links to those as well in the podcast note.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: Good to see you again, Paul.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so we're gonna focus today specifically on the content of one of your books.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: And that's actually one of the reasons why I wanted to have you back on the podcast because we touched on some of these themes in our previous discussion, but I really want to go a little bit deeper today.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, so the book in question that we're looking at 101 ways to find work and keep finding work for the rest of your career.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um really, really intriguing concept, I think, for a lot of people, because we are obviously seeing the nature of careers changing as the nature of work itself changes.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, first off, I'd love to say that the book is actually pretty short and consumable, but I'm actually kind of surprised as to how much there is to think about here.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think, like a lot of people, we tend to think of finding work as an activity that you perform if you've lost your job or if you're unhappy in your current job.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe it's something you think about every, you know, five years or 10 years or something like that, particularly for people that are in my vintage.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: What that means, of course, in many cases is that you're not very good at the skills that you need to flex at those times.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: I know I'm not, for example, a very good interviewee.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you need a specific set of jobs to find work and keep finding work for the rest of your career, as you say.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: So um, we're not gonna have time to go through all of the 101 ways.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'd love to focus in on a few key areas.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um we talked about this a little bit before, but why don't we start with um how you contrast what is from what you would like it to be?
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think's changed about work from the perspective of people who want to get work and keep work?
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_02: Big question.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: Uh a number of factors.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: Uh one is that employers don't want to pay benefits, they don't want to pay health insurance.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: We have a very broken health system in this country.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_02: Obamacare was designed to fix that.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: It has to a certain degree, but uh employers um are reluctant to pay to hire people full-time because then they have to pay the health benefits.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_02: So they'll hire them for 32, 36 hours, whatever's below the minimum.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_02: And then essentially they're contract workers and they're not treated like employees.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_02: Uh they're treated like uh people in the gig economy.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_02: We've got some work for you for six months, and then we're gonna lay you off.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_02: If we need you again, we'll pick you up for three months, we'll pick you up for two years, whatever it happens to be.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_02: That's one of the factors.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_02: I think COVID, second factor, COVID really put into stark relief, so to speak.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_02: The idea that workers are exploited.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: Uh companies don't really care about you.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, they will use you like rented furniture, and they will uh replace you if they possibly can with a robot or at least someone who works in another country for a fraction of the money because their focus is on taking care of the stockholders and making sure that uh revenues and profits go up every quarter so that the senior executives can get their bonuses.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: And as a worker, you're a liability.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_02: So it's chipping away at your value uh in delivering the products or services that the company offers.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think this is probably a kind of an uncomfortable message for for many people to hear.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: I know, you know, based on your book, you we didn't mention it in the intro, but you you've worked fairly extensively in the entertainment industry.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: I know you've you've been based in in Hollywood for some period of time as well.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so this idea of being a commodity that is that is independent and is in charge of your own career and your where you're your own career manager is something that's probably fairly familiar in that realm.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: But would you agree that that, you know, when you're working with um with individuals and kind of telling them how it is, is that an uncomfortable position for a lot of people that you work with?
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_02: Everyone hates it.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: Not a lot of people, everyone hates this, regardless of how old they are.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_02: They don't want to know that the rules have changed, they don't want to know that they are a brand or that they have to self-market or that all the work they put in and all the loyalty they're willing to give or have given is kind of worthless because companies don't care.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_02: So it's very much like pulling teeth.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_02: People don't want to shift their thinking and then after that shift their behaviors because how we've been trained, the safe way to do it is you get an education, um, you learn how to do a resume, you learn how to interview, you learn how to dress for an interview, you get a job, and you're done.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_02: Then all you have to do is do your job for many years with the company, they'll reward your loyalty, you'll move up, you'll make more money, and then you'll retire from the same company.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_02: That was true for maybe our parents or grandparents.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_02: And to be told after you've done all the right things that that doesn't work anymore, they change the rules.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, I hate you.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: Don't tell me this, okay?
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to know it.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_02: I I deserve a job, I've done what I was supposed to do, and now you're telling me that's not enough.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: That's correct.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_02: So they don't like me.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_02: I don't care.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_02: I tell I tell them, I don't care if you don't like this.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_02: This is the way it is.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not interested in your enjoying the idea of self-marketing or branding yourself or anything else.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_02: It's just what we have to do.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_02: You don't have to like it.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's like I've I've used this example.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_02: If you move to Chicago, you need a winter coat.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, but it's heavy and it's bulky and it that don't care.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_02: Doesn't matter.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, the weather doesn't care whether you like a winter coat or not.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_02: The uh workplace of the 21st century doesn't care that you deserve a job because you did all the right things.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_02: Whole new set of rules.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_02: People hate it.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and you know, as I was kind of pointing out in the intro, I I think at a low level, people have sort of an understanding this has changed.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: But because this might be something that you haven't encountered for five years or something, we work with people today that are somewhat surprised that the same strategies and the same techniques that they were using five or ten years ago just don't work anymore.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: There's a piece in the book where you talk about um the way of getting work.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: And it's probably always been the case that who you know is really important, but people do have this sort of interesting opinion that you're gonna submit a bunch of resumes, and then a bunch of those resumes are gonna get read, and and then as they're read, people are gonna think you look great on paper, and then they're gonna call you in for an interview, and then you're gonna ace the interview, and then you're gonna get the job.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and of course, in in reality, that's all changing.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's even been changing a lot over the last year or two with these uh you know automated almost um applications that people can make through social media platforms and so on for jobs.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: You mentioned in the book how that's um equating to enormous numbers of people talking, uh applying for uh for certain numbers of jobs, which is reducing the likelihood of your resume even being read in the first place, right?
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_02: Very frustrating for people.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_02: They they're still focused in with the private clients I have, with the courses I teach, they're still focused on the resume.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_02: If I just get my resume right, then I'll get a job.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_02: And uh no, no.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_02: Here's how it's gonna work.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna get the resume out of the way.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's one or two pages, it's not Shakespeare.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, we're gonna get it out of the way.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_02: You need it, but it's insufficient.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_02: And people hate it.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_02: And it's so frustrating for them.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_02: I set it out, it's great, I worked on it for you know months and months.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: I had different coaches, and it's perfect, and no one's paying attention to me.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_02: What so then they throw it back on themselves and say, there must be something wrong with me.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_02: And there's a lot of shame.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not good enough, I'm missing something, the resume's wrong, I'm too old, I'm too this, I'm too that.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I have to pull them back from that brink and say, there's nothing wrong with you.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_02: There are new rules that this isn't enough.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry, I know you worked hard on the resume.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_02: It looks terrific.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_02: But if no one's gonna read it, not gonna be any good.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_02: We have to try.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_02: The way I put it is the front door is filled with resumes, no one's reading them.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's the side door.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's knowing the people who are in a position to hire or refer you, either within the company or within that industry, and have them put in a good word for you and have them refer you and have them boost you up so you get the job because the person hiring isn't reading the resume anyway.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: What they're doing is going to their friends and colleagues who they trust to say, who do you know who could fill the job?
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_02: So uh it's not fair, and they don't necessarily hire the best person for the job.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_02: They hire the person who's gonna fit with the team, who they can trust, or who was referred by someone who's a trusted colleague, and that's who gets the job.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_02: And if you understand that, then you start working the side door more now that your resume is in the front door and it's lost.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's a neat segue into a couple of the other areas that I actually want to uh want to focus in on today.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um one of them uh is really about that that concept of find of finding that soft door at that side door.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um talk to me about networking.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I'll admit up front, right, this is this is something that I struggled with personally.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's kind of like emotional in the sense that you know I'm I'm an introverted introverted human.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: And often it seems like so much effort with very little reward in the in the short term.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'd love you to make the case for me.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: What's the what's the business case for why networking is so important?
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: And what are some strategies that people can use, particularly if it's not something that comes naturally to them?
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_02: It's human nature to work with people we know and trust.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_02: Not necessarily the best person.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_02: I have a uh mechanic who works on my cars.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_02: He's he's the best, I live in Los Angeles, he's the best mechanic in LA, I don't know, and I don't care.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_02: He delivers for me consistently.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_02: I've used him for 10 years, I've referred five people to him, all of whom are now good customers.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_02: So it's that trust that's built in, and you build trust over time.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not gonna hire you based on a pretty resume.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_02: I can't take the risk.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: Either it's my company and you're a good actor, and it turns out you actually want to be an actor, and you're just using me until you get an audition and then you're gone.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, or you've got some other issues.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to know about it.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: I'm busy, I'm gonna go to people I know.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_02: So the first thing you have to understand before you network is what is it you're selling?
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_02: And now again, we back up from there.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_02: I have to sell.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: Uh my God, I'm a podcast host, I'm a chemist, I'm a professor.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_02: I don't sell, I'm not in sales.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_02: You're in sales, everyone's in sales.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: This is another thing they hate.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_02: I shouldn't have to do this.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, I had a nurse once, she'd been a nurse for 40 years, the hospital closed.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: I said, You're gonna have to do a little networking.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_02: She said, I don't want to.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a nurse, I should just have, I should just get to be a nurse.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_02: I shouldn't have to be out there networking.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_02: So the first step is understanding you're a brand.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_02: Then what is your brand?
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_02: How do we define that?
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: So I work with private clients.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_02: It takes a while for them to get this.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_02: What specifically can you do that people in your industry will pay for?
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_02: We're not looking for likes, okay?
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: We're not looking for fans, we're looking for money.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: What specific skills do you have that people will pay for?
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_02: And what skills do you need to add to that skill set so you can make more money and be more attractive?
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_02: So that means uh getting a hold of and starting relationships with people in your industry.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_02: And social media is enormously valuable for that as a start.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, I have over 35,000 followers on LinkedIn.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_02: They are not all close personal friends, but what I hope, what um what that does, what it allows me to do is that people I want to target, I can now, since we have we are connected on LinkedIn, and you can use whatever social media platform works for your audience, but for me it's LinkedIn.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_02: It gives me an opportunity to maybe meet them in person.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yes?
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: Interface with them, start, start developing a relationship with them.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_02: They're more likely to hire me because they know me, yes?
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_02: So it's knowing someone and developing that relationship which takes time.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_02: This is how you get work, like it or not.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: And for an introvert like you, you don't have to like it.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_02: You'll probably always hate it.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm not the the goal is not that you be a brilliant networker, the goal is that you be a better networker such that you can always find work.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_02: That's all.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: Good enough.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: And and very often in hiring, too, good enough is good enough.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_02: There may be more, I I have a job opening, and there may be some very well qualified people, but I don't know them.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_02: So I'll hire you because I know you and you've delivered for me in the past, and I'm busy, and we're done.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_02: Start tomorrow.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: Let's just I mean, a little bit of a side direction here, but let's jump into the the point you made about LinkedIn.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think I know that you know listeners to our podcasts are often pretty active on LinkedIn.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, a lot of the guests that we have on the podcast, that's how we've connected with them in the first place on uh on LinkedIn.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, 35,000 followers on LinkedIn is quite is quite some achievement, right?
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I think what's really interesting about it is that there are two dynamics here.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: One is how do you even go about casting as as wide a net as that, um, which obviously when you're looking for work increases the chances of of success that you're gonna have, or if you're looking to change your career trajectory.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: The second is how do you how do you manage that in a way that is um that is beneficial, right?
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: 35,000 followers on LinkedIn is amazing on uh you know on paper in terms of people that are gonna hear your voice, but how do you get from that to your point about um uh about parlaying that into meaningful relationships with the um with the people that you need to cultivate those meaningful relationships with?
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_02: Good question.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_02: So, first how I built it.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um once you define your brand, not only do you have the not only do you have a clear sense of what it is you offer that people will pay for, it also tells you who your audience is and who would be interested in buying your services.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_02: So the first line in my uh LinkedIn uh headline, which is also my sound bite, is that I train people to self-market for the gig economy.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_02: So I have to back up if I say that because sometimes people don't know what the gig economy is yet.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_02: But I train people to do that.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: That tells me who my audience is: people who are unemployed, people who are looking for work, career trainers, high school counselors, people in higher education, because I target a lot of higher education, I teach at the college level, university level.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_02: So um when I I filled out a lot, and you'll I know you'll post the my my the link to my LinkedIn page, but there's an enormous amount of data there.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_02: So if I reach out to you, let's say you work in the educational field, maybe specialize in career training.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, I reach out to you, you have no idea who I am.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_02: You go back to my LinkedIn page, you say, training people to self-market for the gig economy.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that's interesting.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_02: I want to learn more.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_02: So you keep reading, and my about section, which is my bio, tells you all the things I've done and all the accomplishments I have are further down the page.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_02: And you go, well, I this is commerce.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_02: I'm in the field too.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_02: This is someone I should know because he's accomplished and because he has 35,000 people.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_02: And it grows from there.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yes?
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_02: So there's there's markets for me all over the world, but it's specific markets.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_02: Again, unemployed, looking for work, education, career training, high school counselors, all that.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_02: And it's never ending.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so that's the first part of the question.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and give me the second part again.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the second part was really centered around how you go from that large following that you obviously can't maintain personal relationships with 35,000 people.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do you go from that to creating, you know, meaning creating and maintaining meaningful relationships with the subset that you really need to?
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_02: I post on a regular basis, and my focus is on what will serve this audience, what are things that would be interesting to them?
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_02: Articles, um, podcasts I've done like this one, which I'll certainly post, um, anything that might be of interest to them that would help them in their career.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm I'm, in a sense, always in their face, not on a daily basis, that makes me crazy.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_02: But every few weeks or so, here's an interesting article, here's a conference that's coming up, here's a podcast I've done, here's something that a colleague of mine have done that might be of interest to you.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: So it's always about serving the target market.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_02: Out of that, I get work.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: People contact me.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, thanks for reminding me about you.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_02: We have another podcast coming up, or I need uh I need some coaching.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I recently got a couple of clients straight from LinkedIn.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_02: I read about you on LinkedIn, or I heard a podcast, and I'd like you to coach me one-on-one.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_02: Or there are teaching opportunities like that.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: I I do seminars and workshops and so on that seemingly come out of nowhere, but they don't because I'm always using LinkedIn as a broadcast medium to those 35,000 people, all of whom could potentially hire a refer me for work, um, as just reminding them I'm Out there.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm not interested in people who work outside of my field.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: Again, I'm not looking for fans, I'm looking for money.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yes?
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: That's why I focus on that's why those 35,000 people are a core audience who could pay me for my services in some way.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm I'm really intrigued by that because what I'm hearing from you here, and it relates to, you know, to other themes in this book, is it's almost like it's the heart of what sales actually is, right?
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody wants to think of themselves as a as a salesperson, but you talk about in this book the idea of what you're really doing is you're being of service to the audience, right?
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: You're doing things for people, and you're able to do things for a group of 35,000 people that leads them to self-select into that closer, uh, that closer network because they want you to do that, they want you to do something for them that they will pay for.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that is a very different way in which many people uh really think of it.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of us think of this as like, you know, the always be selling becomes I've got this, it costs this much, uh do this, etc., versus how can I how can I be of help to you?
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: And you're thinking about that is here's my audience.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: What can I do that will meet the needs of that audience?
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: And then a certain percentage of them will say, Hey, Dr.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: Jazz, we need you for this.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's a different way of thinking about all of this stuff.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: It almost goes back to kind of the like Dale Khanigi principles and things, right?
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's the the money is the head fake.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_02: That's what gets people interested.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah I will I will in every course I teach on career put a big dollar sign on the board.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: I know that's going to get their attention, but it's a head fake.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_02: What we're really about is finding out how we can be of service to people in our particular industry, whatever it happens to be.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_02: And then your job as a marketer is to reach those people and get whatever stuff is in your head out of the way.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_02: I'm an introvert, push through it.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_02: Take an acting class, take an improv class, I'm this, I'm that, push through it.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_02: Because it's not about you, it's about serving other people.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_02: You have things other people need.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_02: Your job is to get it out there to present it to them.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_02: If they can use it, great.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: If they can't, they could refer you or someone else can use you.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_02: So it really is about service and contribution to other people to improve their lives in some way.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yes?
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_02: And if you're focused on that, you'll do whatever it takes to push.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_02: I need more education because if I have more education and I have a degree, I'll have more credibility.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_02: I need to write a book because uh that will give me more credibility.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: I need to learn a new software program because then I'll be of better service or can be a better service to the people who use my skills as a graphic designer or whatever it happens to be.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: So you you learn to push through your stuff, yes?
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um because it's all about other people.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_02: You know, don't get don't get in, you're in a sense, you're saying don't get in their way.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: Those ideas tie neatly into another concept that you bring up in the book, which is around developing and articulating your personal brand.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um again, I I first encountered this as a as a concept back when I was at uh back when I was at Microsoft, and we had a couple of leaders inside Microsoft who were very big on this as an idea.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um and they started to talk about the idea that um you should you should understand what your brand is in the same way that ironically, one of the examples you bring up in the book of Coca-Cola understand very clearly what their brand is.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: What they drilled in on was you want the brand to be an accurate but understandable representation of who you are.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that has that's critical because it's human nature to be able to sniff out authenticity.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: So if your brand doesn't match who you are, it will not be, it will not be an authentic brand.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: But I think the concept of even having a personal brand might feel alien to some people.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: So can you talk a little bit more about that and why in this new world of work, particularly, it is so important?
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um first of all, the concept of your you as an individual being a brand is forward to most people.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_02: I I'm what?
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like Coca-Cola, I'm like Apple, IBM, what, what?
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_02: No, uh no, and no, I just work, I just need a job.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, calm down.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, you are a brand, it's a different marketplace, okay?
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_02: So that's where the coaching is really critical is having them on number one understand the concept that they are a brand and then defining it.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_02: What exactly is it and how do we do it?
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_02: Uh how do I articulate it simply?
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, so it's so as you said, it's understandable.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_02: So people will go, oh, you do that?
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_02: I can use that.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_02: Or my friend here, Mary, come on over.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_02: I want you to meet this guy because he because I know he has what you're looking for.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yes?
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_02: So um that's really where the work, a lot of the work comes in that I do in my coaching is as having people understand and articulate what the brand is.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_02: What I uh the model I work from, incredibly simple.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_02: What's the goal and what are the steps?
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_02: That's simple.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_02: And it works for anybody, and it works not just for career, for anything in life.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_02: What's the goal?
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_02: I want to go to London.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_02: What are the steps I need to take to get there?
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yes?
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uh airline ticket and the money and the and and the carving out the time, all that stuff and all the granularity inside of that.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_02: So, what's the goal?
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_02: Well, um, I really like uh graphic design and I I know uh Photoshop, I know Illustrator, um, and I'd really like to have a career as a graphic designer.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_02: Great.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_02: So that's the goal is you want to have your own shop.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yes, I've worked for other people for a long time.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_02: I want to open my own graphic design business.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_02: Good.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_02: That's the goal.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: Graphic design owner.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yes?
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, what do you need to do?
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_02: What are the steps?
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_02: And it's frightening for people.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my God, I have to get a master's degree, I have to learn more programs, I have to get better computers, um, and I have to reach out to people who could use me.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_02: Who could use a graphic designer that specializes in this?
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_02: Am I gonna do billboards?
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_02: Am I gonna do computer work?
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_02: What am I gonna do?
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: Or is it a range of things?
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_02: So they have to figure that out, yes, and get it down to something reasonable, and then start pursuing the people who will help them, guide them, mentor them, and eventually refer them to other people who could say, uh, we could use your what do you what's your rate?
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_02: Because we've got a job coming up next week, like that.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_02: And suddenly you're in business, it's real.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_02: I have to take people, I have to disabuse them of their fantasy and have sort of a grounded reality so that yes, you can do this, and these are the things you need to do to get there.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_02: And this works for everyone, every field, every age.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_02: It's a it's extraordinary.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's the same conversation for everyone.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: And everyone's got their stuff to overcome.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I don't like, I don't like school.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I have uh I have a drug problem that I have to deal with.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_02: I'm in recovery.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_02: I have this, I have that, I got it.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_02: But you have a set of skills which you're now starting to understand that, and people people don't.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_02: They always undervalue themselves because they've never had to self-market.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_02: They don't realize how much they've got, how much they offer that people can use.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_02: So we start building that and they go, I could do this, but I have to do the the steps I have to take to get there, but am I willing to do that?
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_02: And is always the case.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_02: If you want it badly enough, you'll do whatever it takes.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's another part of the value that that comes from this that I'm intrigued by as well.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: We do a lot of work with people around communications and specifically around written communications, and you call that out as a as an important skill in in your work.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, as we do that, we try to build these skills by helping people communicate in pretty succinct ways, sometimes in ways that are um much more restricted than they would be used to.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like communicate X in the form of a tweet, or communicate Y in the form of a PowerPoint presentation with no more than 20 words in it, or something along those lines.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: Excuse me.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: And very often, initially, people will resist this dramatically.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: They'll resist it because they are um it just it feels alien to them and almost offensive to them.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: They're like, well, hang on, no, no, no, my life is way more complicated than that, or the thing that I'm pitching is way more complicated than that.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: You can't distill it down to that fact.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I got news, right?
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: As you, as you pointed out, and in your field, right, the elevator pitch is a real thing, right?
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: And people have to deliver their elevator pitch for a storyline for a movie inside 15 seconds and do it really well.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: People have to, in the field of, you know, I run a startup, right?
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: We have to do pitch competitions.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: In Calgary recently, I was at a pitch competition, I had to explain every aspect of my business that was relevant to the investors inside two minutes, right?
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, and if I was on a stage and uh two minutes and one second, I was gonna get pulled off the stage.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: When you are forced to do those things, it forces you to distill the essence, the full value of the ideas that you're trying to articulate.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, where the magic really happens is it increases your own understanding, not just the other people, but your own understanding of what it is that you want or what it is that you're looking for.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure you see elements of that as people start to build out their personal brand.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: They're not just improving how they explain to other people, they're improving their own understanding of what it is.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, some great points there.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um your brand is not who you are as a human being.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_02: It's what you're selling.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so I don't need to know everything about you.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_02: I just need to know, and I always tell this to people, as sort of a cardinal rule, you never go wrong if you focus on the target or on the target audience.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_02: What do they need?
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_02: What are they interested in?
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_02: The example I use is I'm a maitre D at a buffet.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_02: And you walk in and say, I'm a vegetarian.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I say, Oh, great, we've got pastrami, roast beef, turkey, corned beef, no, no, no.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_02: You didn't get it.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a vegetarian.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, okay, sorry.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_02: We have kale, kale, or kale.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yes?
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_02: That's focusing on what you need.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_02: So in the soundbite or the elevator pitch, you're focusing on what that particular audience needs, and it varies.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I I use myself as an example.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_02: If I'm talking to someone who works in distance learning, since I'm an educator, what are they interested in?
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_02: My work on LinkedIn learning.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_02: They're not interested in my classroom teaching.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_02: If uh if, however, I'm talking to a dean at perhaps the same education conference uh who could potentially hire me to teach in the classroom, I will talk about my classroom experience because that's what she's interested in.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_02: So you get to always alter it slightly for what would you be interested in?
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_02: And the key is I have you talk first, yes?
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_02: So I understand where you're coming from, what your needs might be.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_02: Can I fill them?
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_02: And if I can't, I might have a friend that I can refer you to who can do that.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yes?
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_02: So um it it people get scared, it's not who you are, okay?
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's just what you're selling, it's just that it's a small slice of what of what you do and who you are.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: But if the audience doesn't care, don't mention it.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_02: Don't put it on the resume.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_02: They don't care.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_02: So I I use that example when I when I uh when I teach, uh second or third day of a course, I'll say, uh I I should mention to you I was a drummer for 15 years.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, but that's interesting.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I yeah, I never mentioned it before because this is a career course.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_02: And the fact that I played the drums is irrelevant and could be confusing for you.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_02: I thought I was coming to a career course, it's a music course, I must be in the wrong room.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_02: Leave out what the audience doesn't care about, focus on what they need and just talk about that.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_02: That's what you're selling, that's the service that you're delivering to them.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: Very intriguing.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna finish up with a couple of couple of questions that are kind of my open questions, if you like, for having having read the book.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um Building a name for yourself.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_01: You pointed out fairly early on that that when you're talking about the reality of this, right, we don't generally have one career anymore.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: We have multiple careers.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: And you just hinted on one aspect of this, right?
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: You were a drummer for a period of time, right?
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: You've been an agent or you know, working with talent in Hollywood.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: And um a many, many, many different other things as well.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: Just the variety of courses you teach is very um is much wider than you might think a lot of people would be.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: So you could argue that you've had many different careers over the course of your uh over the course of your life.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: And who knows, maybe you're not, maybe you're not dumb.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe the next time you and I talk, you'll be doing something entirely different again.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um but um connected to the idea of going into something new is the idea of building a brand for yourself in that new field.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: Something you talk about, something like when many of us are entering new fields, I think we kind of have a an order of operations.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like you become, you do what you can to become an expert, and then you kind of emerge from your whole and let other people know that you're an expert, or maybe you just assume that they will know somehow, like they'll have divined it.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think you have a pretty different viewpoint on that in terms of how you go about creating a name for yourself while you're building your expertise.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: Can you talk about that a little bit?
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_02: There's a concept one of my students gave me years ago called the cumulative positive, meaning that everything you've done in the past makes you better at what you're gonna do next.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_02: So, yes, I've had seven or eight careers, not typical for a baby boomer, but that's the way it worked.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, many of the things I've learned from past careers serve me now.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_02: For example, I worked in television production.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_02: I wrote and produced promos for the CBS Television Network, for the ABC owned and operated stations.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_02: I worked for Dick Clark, always behind the camera.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that's like, oh, well, that was great.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I and I won there and it was terrific, and I moved on.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then years later, I went to LinkedIn Learning to shoot my videos.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_02: And all the experience I'd had in television made me better at doing the courses for LinkedIn Learning.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_02: LinkedIn Learning, uh, they give authors about two and a half days to do one course because most authors are they don't know how to be on camera.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_02: It was instinctive to me.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_02: So I did the first course in six and a half hours.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_02: And they called the producer, they called my producer and said, uh, what do we do?
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_02: They give them a couple more courses.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_02: So I have a series of three.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_02: So people don't realize this is what I helped them see.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_02: They don't realize what they did before.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_02: It was a completely different field.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's nothing to do with what I'm getting into now.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_02: Not true.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_02: There are things you learn that you can use now that you didn't even realize that will be a value to the next career.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_02: So uh you're you're adding your experience to whatever and whatever else you need to learn in the field.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_02: Like I'm switching from this field to that, and I have all these qualities.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm good at dealing with people, I'm good at managing people, whatever it happens to be.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_02: What you add to that is I need a certificate or I need a degree in that field to give me credibility.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_02: Those two combined make me uh an awesome presence and someone and someone who people can really use.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I start building that among the people I already know and asking them to refer me to new people.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_02: And the new people say, Hi, so-and-so referred you.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, I have all this experience.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_02: I'm shifting fields, I'm pivoting into a new field, and I'm getting this certificate and this degree.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_02: Aha! Credibility and experience.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_02: When you when you have the degree, you call me.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_02: We'll we'll we may be able to use you like that.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, yep.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: Makes perfect sense.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_01: All right, let's wrap up with um a section that should probably be in any book that helps anybody do anything.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: Staying sane.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, of course, your focus here is really kind of staying sane through the job hunting process, but it's a reality.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_01: We know that just the world of work itself um is something that is uh can be rough for people.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: It might be that you're working in a job that you don't like.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: It might be that you are in a team uh whereby you're struggling to bond with you know with intellectually and emotionally with your colleagues.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: It could be, it might be you've got a terrible manager.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: So this idea of like sort of of keeping your keeping your head and uh and uh through all of this process as change is happening around you, it's something that's kind of becoming a little bit universal.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'd love to get your your thoughts, just a couple of key strategies that you think are more important than anything else to help people stay sane through the process of keeping a job or stay sane through the process of looking at looking for one.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_02: As you know, having read the book, there are chapters in the book on staying sane.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_02: Because it's a it's a very tough process, it's lonely.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_02: I I can't count how many colleagues have said to me, I had a great interview and I haven't heard back from them.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I have to say, you did hear back from them.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_02: If they were interested, they would have called.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yes?
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_02: So it's so some of the tips are you need some sort of a routine, if you're not particularly if you're not working.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, go to the gym on a regular basis.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_02: One, another one is to compress your time.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_02: You can only look for work so many hours in a day.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_02: Go to the movies, go see a friend, go have coffee, do something different, and let the universe sort of uh give it time to have the the callbacks come.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so those are some of the things you can do, but it it and you need to be around other people because you get in your head, it's you know, it's a dangerous place.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_02: Don't go in there alone, as they say in uh psychotherapy.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_02: You want to get you want to stay out of your head because you it's never good thoughts.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's always, oh, I should have done this, I should have done that.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_02: Uh stop it.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, go take a run, go go dance, do something.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and and always be out there meeting people, meeting new people, developing and deepening relationships, upping your skill set.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_02: And at some point, I say it's like jumping in the pool.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_02: You will get wet, you will find work.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_01: Great advice, great advice for anybody who's uh who's struggling with any aspect of work right now.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I hope the uh the dancing is still working for you.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: If you mention that's something else that you mentioned in the book.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, really appreciate your time today, Dr.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: Jazz, and thanks for coming back on the pod.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, thank you, Paul.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_02: It was great questions again.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_02: Good to see you.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: Humanity Working is produced and edited for Billion Minds by Matt Neal.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_00: Our interviewer is Paul Slater.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_00: Music is by Dolo Records.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_00: If you like this podcast, please subscribe, like, and recommend us to others.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_00: It helps us reach more people.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to learn more about how Billion Minds gets companies ready for the future of work by building adaptable, resilient employees, look for them on LinkedIn or visit their website at billionminds.com.