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VIDEO OF NANCY GUTHRIE & KIDNAPPER CLAIM · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: Bob Shell tonight video of Nancy Guthrie and her kidnapper.
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Speaker 1: Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I
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Speaker 1: want to thank you for being with us.
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Speaker 2: We have received another email from the man who says
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Speaker 2: he knows who Nancy Guthrie's kidnappers are and can lead
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Speaker 2: the FBI to those kidnappers for one bitcoin. So the
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Speaker 2: man writes that he has clearly been following things we've
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Speaker 2: been saying, questioning the FBI, telling us that the person
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Speaker 2: who wrote this might be a female. The person does
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Speaker 2: not say he's a male for sure, but he puts
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Speaker 2: a big question mark there and then also puts a
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Speaker 2: question we say we might be doing a documentary. In
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Speaker 2: this email, which by the way, we have sent to
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Speaker 2: the FBI, he says that he has video. He has
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Speaker 2: video of Nancy Guthrie with the main kidnapper on what
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Speaker 2: probably would be the last day of her life. That's
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Speaker 2: the way he puts it here. He says, while it contains,
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Speaker 2: what it contains is my definition of delivering it on
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Speaker 2: a silver platter, a short video of the main guy
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Speaker 2: with Nancy the day that was probably her last.
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Speaker 1: Bomb Shell tonight, does video exist of Nancy Guthrie with
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Speaker 1: her kidnapper. In the midst of it states it was
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Speaker 1: quote probably her last day. That is our friend Harvey
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Speaker 1: Levin at TMZ. This is an astonishing development straight out
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Speaker 1: to Tony Bruski joining a Star of Hidden Killers with
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Speaker 1: Tony Bruski, Tony, thank you for being with us tonight.
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Speaker 1: What happened? What do we know?
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Speaker 3: We know that Harvey got another letter at TMZ. Another
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Speaker 3: A pattern, though doesn't always equal promise. And I think
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Speaker 3: that's what we have to take a look at here,
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Speaker 3: because sometimes predators are out there looking for a payday.
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Speaker 3: Now that may be the case, it may not be
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Speaker 3: the case. There is certainly a pattern here, and Harvey
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Speaker 3: is definitely taking it seriously and as he should, I
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Speaker 3: think as anyone should, because we don't know where Nancy is.
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Speaker 1: Okay, let's analyze what we know. According to the latest dimissive,
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Speaker 1: in addition to a photo or video of Nancy Gufrie
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Speaker 1: with her kidnapper, the writer claims to have much more
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Speaker 1: concrete evidence.
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Speaker 2: He also says that he has names, addresses, phone numbers
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Speaker 2: of the kidnappers. Now, he says he has that video
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Speaker 2: in a phone and the phone is turned off. It
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Speaker 2: is in a secure, secret location, but a location easy
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Speaker 2: to find if you.
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Speaker 1: Know where to look.
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Speaker 2: That's what he says. He doesn't say a safe deposit box,
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Speaker 2: but he says easy to find if you know where
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Speaker 2: to look. And he says that if he gets a bitcoin,
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Speaker 2: he will deliver as he puts it on a silver platter,
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Speaker 2: exactly how to get access to this phone, including the password.
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Speaker 1: As up tonight, a bitcoin is worth about fifty eight
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Speaker 1: thousand dollars. He wants one bitcoin straight out to Morgan
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Speaker 1: Wright joining a cybersecurity expert, former detective, trained the FBI
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Speaker 1: guys see a RT team on Internet investigations, CEO and
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Speaker 1: found DRIV National Center for Open and Unsolved Cases. And
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Speaker 1: he is a star of crime reconstructed Morgan, thank you
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Speaker 1: for being with us. This is a lot of detail
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Speaker 1: that the writer is sending. Now Here is my question,
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Speaker 1: what do you make of the claim the cell phone
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Speaker 1: containing this photo or video is in a secure location.
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Speaker 4: So, Nancy, I don't trust a thing from the second
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Speaker 4: These are two separate communications, the first two that went
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Speaker 4: to the family, and then everything after I call those
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Speaker 4: parasitic communications because they've never risen to an evidentiary level
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Speaker 4: that you have immutable proof that what this person is
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Speaker 4: alleging he's got. He can say everything he wants, he
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Speaker 4: can claim a claim of evidence is not evidence. So, Nancy,
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Speaker 4: the fastest way to do this is simply start up
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Speaker 4: an scro account. Say look, find a new t third party.
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Speaker 4: We'll hold on to the bitcoin, you deliver the phone,
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Speaker 4: we find out it's legit, Boom, you get your bitcoin,
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Speaker 4: nothing in between. The problem with this, though, Nancy, is
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Speaker 4: every time you keep giving this guy oxygen, he keeps
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Speaker 4: taking it. The reason we don't see people running naked
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Speaker 4: across the fields at soccer games and football games is
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Speaker 4: because it encourages more bad behaviors. So, having trained this,
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Speaker 4: this isn't really a technology issue. This is a behavioral issue.
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Speaker 4: And I used to teach behavior analysis out at NSA
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Speaker 4: talked to a lot of these same guys about looking
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Speaker 4: for what do people say? What do they do? I
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Speaker 4: haven't seen anything in this second set of communications that
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Speaker 4: tells me this person is legitimate, he actually has information
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Speaker 4: that is proprietary to the case. Nothing.
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Speaker 1: Okay. I typically would agree with what you were saying there,
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Speaker 1: Morgan Wright, but for the fact that Savannah and Guthrie
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Speaker 1: herself says she believes two of the prior ransom notes
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Speaker 1: we're real. Let's hear it from the horse's mouth.
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Speaker 5: The two notes that we received that we responded to.
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Speaker 5: I tend to believe those are real.
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Speaker 1: That's some of our friends at today. You hear Savannah
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Speaker 1: Guthrie stating that two of the missives were real. Now
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Speaker 1: to you, Sydney Silvanni joining us Crime Stories investigative reporter
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Speaker 1: on the case. From the very beginning, Savannah clearly states
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Speaker 1: she believes two of the ransom notes were real, were legit.
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Speaker 1: What were those two ransom notes that she's convinced were real, Nancy,
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Speaker 1: We now believe it's the.
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Speaker 6: Notes where they requested a ransom and then came back
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Speaker 6: and apologized and said that something went wrong. Missus Guthrie
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Speaker 6: passed away and they buried her with nature. And we
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Speaker 6: put that together from Instagram posts from Savannah Guthrie. The
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Speaker 6: siblings all sat down. They said, we understand, but we
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Speaker 6: still want a chance to celebrate with our mom, and
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Speaker 6: we now take back to me. They understand that she
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Speaker 6: passed away after she had been kidnapped, but they do
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Speaker 6: want a chance to celebrate her life. To have her
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Speaker 6: remains back.
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Speaker 5: We receive future message and we understand. We beg you
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Speaker 5: now to return our mother to us so that we
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Speaker 5: can celebrate with her. This is the only way we
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Speaker 5: will have peace. This is very valuable to us and.
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Speaker 1: We will pay straight out to Doctor Rachel Toles, clinical
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Speaker 1: forensic psychologist, author of a brand new book coming out,
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Speaker 1: Inventing the Psychopath. You can find her at doctor Racheltolls
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Speaker 1: dot com t O L e. S. Doctor Tolls, thank
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Speaker 1: you for being with us tonight. You know, well, I
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Speaker 1: know Savannah from our days long ago at Court TV.
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Speaker 1: She's an amazing person. She's just as kind and considerate
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Speaker 1: as she appears to be on the Today Show. I
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Speaker 1: can tell you that. But also a lot of people
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Speaker 1: don't know she's a trained lawyer and she's very very smart,
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Speaker 1: a doctor tolds. I found it very difficult to believe
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Speaker 1: that Savannah Guthue would go rogue and put it out
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Speaker 1: there that she believes two of those missives were real.
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Speaker 1: If the FBI told her not to say that or
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Speaker 1: disagreed with her, I believe that was FBI sanctioned, that
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Speaker 1: they were in lockstep.
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Speaker 7: Yeah, this is such an emotional case and I think that, yes,
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Speaker 7: while she's incredibly intelligent and she's a lawyer and she's
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Speaker 7: so poised whenever she's on the Today Show, even during
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Speaker 7: all of this, she's also human, which basically means if
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Speaker 7: one of the most beloved persons in your life, which
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Speaker 7: for most of us many of us were lucky, is
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Speaker 7: our mother, is just take and then someone throws you
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Speaker 7: a bone like these ransom notes. Certainly at the beginning,
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Speaker 7: when everything is so horrifying and you're just so emotional,
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Speaker 7: you're going to latch onto that bone or those bones
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Speaker 7: as if they're truth, and you're going to lock that
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Speaker 7: into your mind. Like that does feel real, and any
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Speaker 7: human would do that, So you can be incredibly intelligent.
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Speaker 7: In fact, often if you're really intelligent, you also have
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Speaker 7: quite an imagination that allows you to latch on to
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Speaker 7: hope like that. And I think that it's possible. Of course,
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Speaker 7: we don't know if these are real, but that would
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Speaker 7: make sense to me why Savannah would say something like
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Speaker 7: I tend to think they're really because her heart and
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Speaker 7: mind are in that place.
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Speaker 1: Still, Doctor Rachel tells, I respect you deeply and I
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Speaker 1: very rarely disagree with you. Number one that was unresponsive
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Speaker 1: to my question. I asked you specifically, do you believe
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Speaker 1: Savannah Guthrie would go rogue and put out a statement
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Speaker 1: that she had not vetted with the FBI.
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Speaker 7: I don't, can't. I mean, for me, I don't think
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Speaker 7: she would, but she. I mean, what you're saying is
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Speaker 7: she obviously did, so maybe.
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Speaker 1: It was vetted by the FBI. I mean, no, that's
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Speaker 1: not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying she didn't.
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Speaker 1: I'm saying that Savannah has been with the FBI like
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Speaker 1: this from the get go, as she should be. Okay, Yes,
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Speaker 1: there are rumors of disputes between her and Nana's. I
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Speaker 1: don't know anything about that, but I could totally understand
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Speaker 1: it from her advantage point. But doctor Tols, she's very cautious,
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Speaker 1: she's smart, she's a trained lawyer. She's not going renegade
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Speaker 1: and putting out statements that the FBI hasn't vetted. So
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Speaker 1: my point is, if she says I think they're real,
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Speaker 1: she thinks they're real because that's what the FBI has
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Speaker 1: told her and given her evidence to believe. And I'm
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Speaker 1: setting up to Mike Gouhle, former nessa County lieutenant founding
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Speaker 1: member of the NYPD K nine. He has been on
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Speaker 1: the ground into son beating the bushes president of Hound's
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Speaker 1: Town charity. It's all about K nine's hound h o
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Speaker 1: U n DS Mike. So you've got her stating that
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Speaker 1: two of the ransom notes are real. Okay, now I
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Speaker 1: want you to hear before you give me your answer.
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Speaker 1: I'm setting you up what Harvey Levin says about this
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Speaker 1: latest missive.
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Speaker 2: This is clearly the guy who has been sending us
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Speaker 2: these emails because he says that the bitcoin address he
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Speaker 2: gave us before is no longer working, and he actually
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Speaker 2: wrote the bitcoin address down and it does match what
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Speaker 2: we saw previously, and we've never reported that. He gives
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Speaker 2: a new bitcoin address, and he says he wants a
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Speaker 2: bitcoin and in return he will basically deliver access to
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Speaker 2: that phone as he puts it on a silver platter.
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Speaker 1: Needless to say, that's our friend Harvey Levin at TMZ.
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Speaker 1: So here you go, Mike. You've heard all the experts
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Speaker 1: if the first two notes were real, and the third note,
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Speaker 1: according to Harvey, refers back to the first bitcoin address
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Speaker 1: and says that address is no longer valid and has
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Speaker 1: the same vernacular jargon speak as the first two air go.
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Speaker 1: Therefore this one is real.
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Speaker 8: I'm not saying I can say with certainty that's true,
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Speaker 8: but if it is, obviously it's a smoking gun. And
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Speaker 8: as far as Nancy's deliberate, I do believe that she
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Speaker 8: spoke to the FBI, but that doesn't mean the FBI
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Speaker 8: doesn't have a strategy of misleading the writer of these things.
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Speaker 8: So unfortunately, in all these cases, we don't know truth
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Speaker 8: from fiction.
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Speaker 1: Penemi. So, Mike gild I need to understand what you
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Speaker 1: just said. It sounds like double talk. You state that
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Speaker 1: it could be real or it could be FBI's strategy
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Speaker 1: to mislead the writer. Okay. If they portrayed to Savannah
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Speaker 1: that it's real and she believes that it's real, okay,
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Speaker 1: then what are you talking about? You you just can't
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Speaker 1: spout something out like that and expect us not to
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Speaker 1: catch it.
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Speaker 8: Right. So what I was referring to you asked if
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Speaker 8: her statements were deliberate or spontaneous on her own, So
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Speaker 8: I think she vetted it with the FI. And if
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Speaker 8: the FBI has a strategy of disclosing information and keep
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Speaker 8: things very close to the fs So if a statement
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Speaker 8: by the victim's daughter is going to help in this
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Speaker 8: little game of catch me if you can. It might
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Speaker 8: be helpful. She might say things to help the investigation.
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Speaker 8: It might not just be coming from her heart independently.
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Speaker 8: So yeah, so these things occur, right, the FBI has
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Speaker 8: to play a game of cat and mouse. So to
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Speaker 8: answer your question, I hope is I think it was deliberate.
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Speaker 8: I think it was vetted by the FBI, and they
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Speaker 8: might have a reason for her to say certain things
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Speaker 8: to further the investigation, to keep these communications coming in
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Speaker 8: whatever they are.
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Speaker 1: And joining us now, Marene O'Connell, former FBI agent, experting
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Speaker 1: Electronic Security president and CEO ATOA. That's Marine O'Connell and associates,
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Speaker 1: past president in Front Guard National and star of Big
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Speaker 1: City Crime Inside the Red Tape. Maureene, thank you so
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Speaker 1: much for joining us tonight. Marine. I'm not sure what
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Speaker 1: Mike Gould just said. Okay, he said a lot, and
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Speaker 1: all of it can be true separately. It was conflicting.
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Speaker 1: So you've got Savannah stating she thinks the first two
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Speaker 1: of the missives were real. Now you've got this third
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Speaker 1: missive Maureene and refers to this earlier at bitcoin account,
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Speaker 1: and it is the same vernacular or jargon. Where I'm
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Speaker 1: going with this is if the first two were real,
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Speaker 1: ergo therefore this one is real. Is that making any sense?
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Speaker 9: Yes, you make perfect sense given the information that we
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Speaker 9: were given from Savannah. The hiccup I have, Nancy, is
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Speaker 9: when you watch Savannah deliver that line everything else, she's
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Speaker 9: looking right at Hoda. She's speaking, you know, in a
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Speaker 9: streamline way, and you're right, she's very smart, she's a lawyer,
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Speaker 9: she's very good on screen.
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Speaker 1: Et cetera.
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Speaker 9: But when she when she says this one line, if you,
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Speaker 9: if you want to, if you play it again, you'll
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Speaker 9: see that she says, and the two for the first
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Speaker 9: two letters, she looks off and she says, I believe
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Speaker 9: those are real. So I don't, I don't.
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Speaker 1: I don't know.
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Speaker 9: Does she really believe there real or I think what
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Speaker 9: mister Gould was saying was there's the there's a chance
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Speaker 9: that all three of those letters are related. But the
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Speaker 9: Bureau may have said, to help with the investigation, that
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Speaker 9: we think these are real, and we you know, we
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Speaker 9: want you to continue sending them because we're trying to
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Speaker 9: get you.
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Speaker 1: So it's the catch me.
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Speaker 9: If you can line that he was talking to That's
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Speaker 9: what I think he was referring to. So was she
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Speaker 9: told to do it by the Bureau? Maybe probably? I
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Speaker 9: don't No, we don't know because we haven't seen the
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Speaker 9: case file, and I haven't seen all the all the information,
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Speaker 9: you know, the metadata and everything that has to do
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Speaker 9: with these three letters.
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Speaker 1: Let's take a look at exactly what Maureene O'Connell has
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Speaker 1: identified in Savannah's delivery.
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Speaker 5: The two notes that we received that we responded to.
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Speaker 5: I tend to believe those are real.
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Speaker 1: That's where our friends at today. But Marine, I know Savannah,
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Speaker 1: or I think I know Savannah, and I don't think
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Speaker 1: she's playing a game. She looks off like she's thinking
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Speaker 1: about it. Everything she knows, everything she's been told, and
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Speaker 1: she looks back at Hod and says, I think they're real.
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Speaker 9: Well, when when we look at the predatory behavior of
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Speaker 9: people that write these false notes, it's similar to Nancy.
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Speaker 9: Have you have you had friends that were taken advantage
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Speaker 9: of by some of those scams, particularly against elder people,
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Speaker 9: where they call them up and say, I've got your
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Speaker 9: son here and there's a person screaming in the background.
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Speaker 9: I have had clients who are some of the most
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Speaker 9: intelligent people, some who spent their whole lives doing like
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Speaker 9: the things that you and I are doing, and they're
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Speaker 9: completely shaken and they believe it. So is it a
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Speaker 9: matter of her not being smart? No, I would never
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Speaker 9: say that. Is it a matter of the level of
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Speaker 9: emotion and trauma that she's dealing with maybe having her
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Speaker 9: say something. I think the possibility is there, but again,
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Speaker 9: we won't know until we get you know, hopefully we
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Speaker 9: get a trial date soon where we can this stuff
18:43
Speaker 9: can start coming out and trial and we can really
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Speaker 9: see what they had really see. As you know better
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Speaker 9: than anyone as a prosecutor, these are the things that
18:52
Speaker 9: are just going to take us down that railroad track
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Speaker 9: to guilty.
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Speaker 1: Marine O'Connell former FBI agent, president and CEO at a marine.
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Speaker 1: Everything you said I completely agree with, But I want
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Speaker 1: to throw in this. You got the FBI too. This
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Speaker 1: is not just Savannah desperately wishing it to be true
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Speaker 1: as I would. I want it to be true. My
19:17
Speaker 1: mind will do a backflip, a contortion to make it true.
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Speaker 1: But it's the FBI feeding her, convincing her that those
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Speaker 1: two notes were real. It's not just her in a
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Speaker 1: moment of desperation trying to find her mother. It's not
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Speaker 1: just that wanting it to be true. It's them giving
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Speaker 1: her reason to believe it's true. And where I'm going
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Speaker 1: with this and why I care the private of value
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Speaker 1: is if they're true, then this one is true. It's
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Speaker 1: not a leap of faith, it's I agree with evidence.
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Speaker 1: I agree with you.
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Speaker 9: And also when you consider that that first note apparently
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Speaker 9: had information in it about the Apple Watch that was
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Speaker 9: very distinct. For example, it wasn't the Apple Watch was
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Speaker 9: on her nightstand, where any one of us could say
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Speaker 9: it was probably on our nightstand. That Apple Watch was
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Speaker 9: in a very interesting place, Otherwise it wouldn't have been
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Speaker 9: so convincing to law enforcement. So I, personally, for whatever reason,
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Speaker 9: I don't believe in these in these letters, I don't
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Speaker 9: believe in any of them, don't. I don't know why.
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Speaker 9: I just don't believe in them. I think they tend
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Speaker 9: to be performative. I know that these predators, no matter
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Speaker 9: where they are, that are trying to get money from people,
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Speaker 9: will pivot and shift and twist and and you know,
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Speaker 9: twist in the wind, just trying to get you to
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Speaker 9: believe that they have the information that you want. And
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Speaker 9: with regard to this phone in a secret place with
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Speaker 9: a video on it, then take a screenshot of Nancy
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Speaker 9: being held by a guy and blur out his face.
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Speaker 9: And the other reason I don't believe it is because
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Speaker 9: if this person who adds this phone supposedly knows the
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Speaker 9: two offenders, don't you think those two offenders know her
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Speaker 9: or him whoever you're going to kill them? I mean,
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Speaker 9: it just it doesn't pass the sniff test for me
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Speaker 9: when it comes to an I'm a logic driven thinker.
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Speaker 1: My initial reaction, Maureene, is I'm discounting them, these missives
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Speaker 1: because ever since I can recall, I have been dealing
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Speaker 1: with liars that will swear under oath and they will
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Speaker 1: look right at you, and you can't tell they're lying
21:30
Speaker 1: unless you've got them hooked up to a polygraph. So
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Speaker 1: with all the people coming out of the woodwork trying
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Speaker 1: to take advantage of the Guthrie family, that statistically suggests
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Speaker 1: these aren't true. But there are other facts the writer included,
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Speaker 1: such as an exact description of Nancy Guthrie's pajamas the
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Speaker 1: night she went missing, not just that she was wearing pajamas,
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Speaker 1: but what they looked like, right, And you know, it's interesting.
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Speaker 1: You know, Marie, my mom almost ninety five, lives with us.
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Speaker 1: Many nights she doesn't want to put on her PJS
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Speaker 1: and she'll go to sleep, and what she was wearing,
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Speaker 1: it could be anything that she might go to sleep
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Speaker 1: in night tonight. So I just find it really interesting
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Speaker 1: that this person knew a unique location of the apple watch,
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Speaker 1: the light, the floodlight being askew. That didn't affect me
22:37
Speaker 1: because anyone would know that. But the pjs, the specific
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Speaker 1: design on the pjs. If that is true, lend's credibility,
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Speaker 1: doesn't it.
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Speaker 9: And also, yeah, Nancy didn't. They also say that she
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Speaker 9: left there without her slippers, so she obviously keeps her
22:54
Speaker 9: slippers in the exact same spot and when she wakes
22:56
Speaker 9: up in the morning, she puts them on and goes
22:58
Speaker 9: out and makes coffee or whatever she does. She's a
23:00
Speaker 9: victim of habit like most of us. So I agree
23:03
Speaker 9: with you. I found that very compelling. Initially, I just
23:08
Speaker 9: I mean, is there another way for someone to get
23:10
Speaker 9: that type of information?
23:11
Speaker 1: I don't know.
23:12
Speaker 9: Could there have been an email or two between law
23:15
Speaker 9: enforcement that showed up on the dark web and someone
23:20
Speaker 9: got a hold of it with some of that information
23:22
Speaker 9: maybe I don't know.
23:26
Speaker 2: Send us a screen grab of Nancy Guthrie from this video.
23:31
Speaker 2: And a couple hours later we got another email from
23:35
Speaker 2: the same guy and he said he would not do that.
23:38
Speaker 2: The metadata would lead authorities to him, and he was
23:43
Speaker 2: afraid because he said that these kidnappers know who he is.
23:48
Speaker 2: He at least has said to us early on that
23:52
Speaker 2: he knew them very well and was afraid they would
23:55
Speaker 2: go after him. So he's not going to send a screen.
23:58
Speaker 1: Grap Marine and Colin for more FBI agent president and
24:01
Speaker 1: CEO at MOOA Marine explain in regular English what he's stating.
24:12
Speaker 1: The writer about the meta data could the abundance of
24:17
Speaker 1: metadata required to send a screen grab could identify him.
24:23
Speaker 9: Oftentimes photographs havedated metadata included in them that allow for
24:29
Speaker 9: location and where it was taken and what time it
24:31
Speaker 9: was taken.
24:32
Speaker 1: Et cetera.
24:33
Speaker 9: However, I go back to what I said before that
24:35
Speaker 9: he admits in that call or in that letter he
24:39
Speaker 9: wrote that the bad guys in fact know who this
24:41
Speaker 9: person is and they're going to come after them. Well,
24:44
Speaker 9: then why wouldn't you send it directly to the family
24:46
Speaker 9: or direct or directly to law enforcement. Why are you
24:49
Speaker 9: sending it to where it's out on the airwaves for
24:52
Speaker 9: everyone to hear. Does that make any sense? No, So
24:56
Speaker 9: there's just too many things that don't make sense, and
24:58
Speaker 9: to me, they tend to overwhelm the stuff that is compelling.
25:03
Speaker 9: So it's a bit of a conundrum.
25:06
Speaker 1: From our friends at kt TV back to Tony Bruski
25:09
Speaker 1: joining us star off Hidden Killers with Tony Bruski. Okay,
25:14
Speaker 1: Tony jump in.
25:16
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the hidden device to me also does
25:21
Speaker 3: not smell pass the smell test to me. To just
25:24
Speaker 3: just think of a device. Think of all the cases
25:27
Speaker 3: where we talked about a digital device and the Pandora's
25:31
Speaker 3: box that this thing opens. So we're supposed to believe
25:35
Speaker 3: there's a digital device, a phone somewhere that not only
25:37
Speaker 3: has the photos in it, but all of the other
25:40
Speaker 3: data that is meta that's in there. That's going to
25:43
Speaker 3: tell you so much more, not just about the photo
25:47
Speaker 3: or the video that he claim is in there, but
25:49
Speaker 3: about where this device has been, who's used at, who
25:52
Speaker 3: it's been around. Maybe this is the silver platter they're
25:56
Speaker 3: talking about. Maybe that's exactly what they mean that it
25:58
Speaker 3: goes beyond just the photo, that this device will lead
26:02
Speaker 3: you to where Nancy has been, where these people have been.
26:06
Speaker 3: I guess that's a possibility, but it seems a little
26:09
Speaker 3: bit too far into the realm of fantasy for me
26:12
Speaker 3: to really put a whole lot away.
26:16
Speaker 1: But Tony, the whole thing has been fantastical. Yeah, taking
26:19
Speaker 1: an eighty four year old woman out of her home
26:23
Speaker 1: in the middle of the night in a reclusive area.
26:27
Speaker 1: Just the fact that we see the porch guy, We
26:31
Speaker 1: have video of the porch guy, but yet we can't
26:35
Speaker 1: catch him. Much of it is fantastical. Now, Tony Bruski,
26:40
Speaker 1: what do you make of Nanos going on a morning
26:45
Speaker 1: station and refuting it?
26:49
Speaker 10: Hard for the course, really, because you never know what
26:53
Speaker 10: Nanos is going to say, and he always has ways
26:55
Speaker 10: of phrasing things that kind of go, oh well, it
26:59
Speaker 10: doesn't necessary have the weight that you're.
27:01
Speaker 3: Trying to give it. I think the FBI has done
27:04
Speaker 3: a number of arrest for false fake ransom notes. I
27:09
Speaker 3: think your he's predicating it. Maybe he's right, maybe he's wrong.
27:13
Speaker 3: Who really knows. The FBI truly does, but they're not
27:16
Speaker 3: going to reveal that. I do find that fascinating there,
27:19
Speaker 3: because as far as we know out here in the ether,
27:21
Speaker 3: as late people they've made the one arrest. Is there
27:24
Speaker 3: more people that they've arrested? Is he's speaking in general
27:27
Speaker 3: terms of the FBI arresting people in other cases for
27:30
Speaker 3: ransom notes. I don't know the answer to that, but
27:32
Speaker 3: it does make you wonder if they are further down
27:36
Speaker 3: that road than we're aware of of the false random
27:39
Speaker 3: notes or the false ransom notes that have come into
27:42
Speaker 3: media or into other outlets that we just don't have
27:44
Speaker 3: knowledge of.
27:45
Speaker 1: Sidney Silvanni, I don't know of any other arrest made
27:50
Speaker 1: by the FEDS or Pima County about fake ransom notes
27:55
Speaker 1: extortions of the Guthrie family other than the one. So
27:58
Speaker 1: I don't know what Nanis is talking talking about. Neither
28:01
Speaker 1: do I.
28:02
Speaker 6: That's exactly what I'm thinking. We only heard of that
28:05
Speaker 6: one arrest, so we really don't know where this is
28:08
Speaker 6: coming from.
28:09
Speaker 1: You know, it's just muddying the water moren O'Connell. Fornano's
28:14
Speaker 1: to go on a morning talk show and say, yeah,
28:17
Speaker 1: I'm not paying the attention to that. Why is he blabbing?
28:21
Speaker 1: He really needs to take a cue from the FBI
28:25
Speaker 1: and shut his pie hole.
28:29
Speaker 9: I couldn't agree more. He also said something very interesting.
28:33
Speaker 9: Did you notice when he said something along the lines
28:35
Speaker 9: of the FBI is in charge of the case now
28:38
Speaker 9: or something at the end of that article.
28:41
Speaker 1: So, yes, So why is he still talking? Yeah?
28:46
Speaker 9: Why is he still talking? I don't know, because a
28:49
Speaker 9: lot of what he has said since the beginning of
28:51
Speaker 9: this investigation has been either misleading or he's flip flopped
28:55
Speaker 9: on it over and over, and I think it just
28:57
Speaker 9: adds to the frustration of the citizens in his county
29:01
Speaker 9: and the people trying to, you know, bring Nancy home.
29:04
Speaker 9: It's normally, you know as well as I do, that
29:07
Speaker 9: when a sheriff for a law enforcement entity gets up
29:10
Speaker 9: on the podium and gives up, you know, speaks of
29:13
Speaker 9: several fifteen to twenty talking points, you can put your
29:16
Speaker 9: money on any one of those. But unfortunately that doesn't
29:20
Speaker 9: seem to be the case here. I don't know if
29:22
Speaker 9: he's confused or he's not being told anything. I really
29:27
Speaker 9: don't have an answer for that, but it's not making
29:29
Speaker 9: sense to me.
29:30
Speaker 2: They had five agents on the phone with our team
29:34
Speaker 2: trying to find out a who was sending the ransom
29:38
Speaker 2: demand from the kidnappers, which they believe to be authentic,
29:42
Speaker 2: and who was sending these various emails to us saying
29:48
Speaker 2: I can tell you who they are for a bitcoin
29:51
Speaker 2: and they have not been able to produce either, and
29:54
Speaker 2: they and it's not for lack of trying. Whoever is
29:57
Speaker 2: doing this is pretty sophisticated.
30:00
Speaker 1: So Mike Goule joining us former Nassau County lieutenant, founding
30:05
Speaker 1: member of the NYPD canine unit who has been to
30:10
Speaker 1: the area searching on the ground for discovery. You hear
30:15
Speaker 1: him state the FBI believes too the notes were authentic.
30:21
Speaker 8: Right, but authentic and credible or to a couple of
30:24
Speaker 8: two things. I don't know if I agree with that.
30:27
Speaker 8: I will say that as the previous guest, I've been
30:30
Speaker 8: critical of Sheriff Nanos from the first forty eight hours.
30:34
Speaker 8: He's been flapping his gums. My opinion, he's compromised the investigation.
30:38
Speaker 8: I'm not sure he's totally responsible for the whole whether
30:42
Speaker 8: it gets if it's part of the investigation. But he
30:47
Speaker 8: gave up the crime scene. He talks independently to news agencies,
30:51
Speaker 8: So did he give out the fact was he was
30:53
Speaker 8: at the crime scene, So he knows what pajamas Nancy
30:57
Speaker 8: was wearing. He knows all of these facts. The one
30:59
Speaker 8: statement he said that there's a lot of blood inside
31:01
Speaker 8: the house, we've never gotten the answer. He should have
31:04
Speaker 8: stepped away from that podium after five minutes. He could
31:06
Speaker 8: have taken credit for being the sheriff, for political aspirations
31:10
Speaker 8: or his ego, and then passed it over to either
31:12
Speaker 8: a district attorney or a professional public information officer. He's
31:17
Speaker 8: none of those things. And so in my mind, that
31:22
Speaker 8: information could come from anywhere from the very beginning of
31:25
Speaker 8: this investigation. And see I could have wrote the note,
31:29
Speaker 8: she has to be found in nature, because that's all
31:31
Speaker 8: that's in Arizona is nature, I believe. Unfortunately, sadly, she
31:36
Speaker 8: was deceased within forty eight hours of the abduction.
31:40
Speaker 3: So none of this.
31:41
Speaker 8: You know, in law enforcement we have to use logic
31:43
Speaker 8: and probability, and we're all scratching our heads trying to
31:47
Speaker 8: be logical, but there's no logic here. The porch guy,
31:50
Speaker 8: he could have been a schizophrenic, delusional schizophrenic who thought
31:53
Speaker 8: that was his house he was breaking into. I'm working
31:56
Speaker 8: on a case right now where there's a man woke
31:59
Speaker 8: up to saw his wife in the kitchen. He was
32:02
Speaker 8: in some type of delusion, a schizophrenic delusion, and he
32:06
Speaker 8: started to strangle her, but she thought he was Hillary Clinton.
32:09
Speaker 1: So please stop. My ears are bleeding right now. You
32:18
Speaker 1: had me until you said delusional schizophrenic. Be as I
32:23
Speaker 1: am telling you that a quote delusional schizophrenic could not
32:27
Speaker 1: elude PMA County or the FEDS or Patel or everyone
32:34
Speaker 1: else who's been looking for them. And no, this is
32:38
Speaker 1: not a delusional schizophrenic. I'm going to let you go
32:41
Speaker 1: in the corner and think about what you just said.
32:43
Speaker 1: Doctor Rachel told us what is a delusional schizophrenic?
32:48
Speaker 7: Well, it's somebody who suffers from a mental illness called schizophrenia,
32:52
Speaker 7: who has certain delusions or hallucinations, but delusions, meaning so
32:57
Speaker 7: hallucinations would be I think what he was referring to
33:01
Speaker 7: Hillary Clinton instead of the wife. That's kind of a
33:05
Speaker 7: visual hallucination, and a delusion is more of a mental delusion,
33:08
Speaker 7: like the way you're thinking about something that isn't real.
33:12
Speaker 7: But so, I guess I hope that answers your question.
33:16
Speaker 1: I doubt a delusional schizophrenic could lead the FBI on
33:19
Speaker 1: a wild goose chase for this long.
33:22
Speaker 2: He says in this email that he is not, as
33:26
Speaker 2: he puts it, I am not the idiot who recently
33:30
Speaker 2: called in a tip about her burial site in Mexico.
33:35
Speaker 2: He goes on to say, only two are directly involved,
33:40
Speaker 2: and I doubt they would be the ones calling to
33:44
Speaker 2: snitch on themselves. So he has said to us before
33:49
Speaker 2: that there were multiple kidnappers, and there was a main kidnapper,
33:53
Speaker 2: but definitely plural kidnappers. He has said that before.
33:57
Speaker 1: From our friend Harvey Levenett TMZ back tomorrow, Reena O'Connell marine,
34:02
Speaker 1: you believe we are closer to catching the porch guy.
34:07
Speaker 9: Wine, I do for a number of reasons, Nancy. First
34:11
Speaker 9: of all, I just have such great faith in local, state,
34:16
Speaker 9: and federal law enforcement. I know the heart of the
34:19
Speaker 9: people working this case.
34:20
Speaker 1: But also.
34:22
Speaker 9: My main thought is an evidentiary one in that he
34:25
Speaker 9: had that bite light in his mouth, and he was
34:27
Speaker 9: wearing gloves, and you saw him bring his hand up
34:30
Speaker 9: to his mouth at one point and then touch the
34:32
Speaker 9: frame of the camera he was playing with the doorknob.
34:35
Speaker 9: There had to be transferred DNA on that. Also, when
34:39
Speaker 9: he went in the house and he was in there
34:40
Speaker 9: for forty one minutes. That bite light if you have
34:43
Speaker 9: a light in your mouth. And as odd as it sounds,
34:46
Speaker 9: law enforcement will often conduct raids, or when we break
34:50
Speaker 9: in or when we do warrants, we'll have sometimes a
34:54
Speaker 9: flashlight in our mouth when we're looking or searching for something,
34:57
Speaker 9: and whenever you put even the smallest flashlight, you just
35:01
Speaker 9: drool like you can't believe. So I'm just I just
35:04
Speaker 9: can't believe that there isn't some good DNA in there.
35:06
Speaker 9: They may not have a match to it, but they
35:08
Speaker 9: could very well be doing forensic genetic genealogy to get
35:12
Speaker 9: to the bottom of who this person is, where this
35:14
Speaker 9: person is, or where they're from and getting much much closer.
35:20
Speaker 1: When we are talking about DNA genealogy out to Morgan
35:25
Speaker 1: Wright adjoining US cybersecurity expert and former detective host of
35:30
Speaker 1: crime Reconstructed Morgan, she is referring to correctly DNA we
35:38
Speaker 1: believe was found at Nancy Guffries's home. What else could
35:43
Speaker 1: lead us to the perp? Many, including Marine O'Connell, believe
35:48
Speaker 1: that we are very close to catching the porch guy.
35:51
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, DNA is one aspect and you have to,
35:54
Speaker 4: but you have to be careful. Remember the crime scene
35:55
Speaker 4: was closed for two days, opened and then shut down again.
35:58
Speaker 4: So there's this theory called low car Ar's transfer through
36:00
Speaker 4: He gets right directly into evidence what was brought into
36:03
Speaker 4: the scene and more importantly, what was taken out of it.
36:05
Speaker 4: So the hair, we haven't established providence of the hair yet.
36:08
Speaker 4: So DNA can lead you so far. The other thing
36:12
Speaker 4: that's going to lead you is this is gets into
36:14
Speaker 4: more things around intelligence work at signals analysis is looking
36:17
Speaker 4: for behavior of phones like in the Kohlberger case. Do
36:20
Speaker 4: we have devices that were turned on and then turned
36:22
Speaker 4: off going into the area. Do we have a pattern
36:24
Speaker 4: of activity that indicates pre reconnaissance behavior which we saw
36:28
Speaker 4: back on January. Nancy the one thing missing and a
36:31
Speaker 4: lot of people didn't talk about. I mentioned this way
36:33
Speaker 4: back in March. There was a people were saying was
36:36
Speaker 4: a burglary gone wrong? My working hypothesis now it was
36:39
Speaker 4: a targeted abduction. For one main fact. The porch guy,
36:42
Speaker 4: the intruder, is very comfortable in his behavior and his
36:45
Speaker 4: tradecraft standing in front of that camera. He knows it
36:47
Speaker 4: because he was there in January. He knows it because
36:49
Speaker 4: he spent a lot of time in that portico out there.
36:52
Speaker 4: The reason the camera was removed was not to disguise him,
36:55
Speaker 4: It was to disguise the car. Because the blood trail
36:57
Speaker 4: stops at the edge of the driveway. Nancy was put
36:59
Speaker 4: in into a vehicle. So everything I've seen here indicates
37:03
Speaker 4: there's nothing to indicate that it was anything other than
37:05
Speaker 4: a targeted reduction. There's nothing to indicate that it was
37:08
Speaker 4: a burglary gone wrong. So you're going to get signals.
37:11
Speaker 4: You may get some forensic evidence inside, but any competent
37:15
Speaker 4: defense attorney and even semi competent, is going to take
37:18
Speaker 4: them to task because of the time between the crime
37:20
Speaker 4: scene being closed, then being opened up again, and then
37:23
Speaker 4: being closed again. And you know from your days, and
37:25
Speaker 4: I know from mine, that introduces an entire element of
37:28
Speaker 4: reasonable doubt into any evidence you might find inside that house.
37:32
Speaker 1: Curious about the author of the last missive, Rankling at
37:38
Speaker 1: the suggestion a woman wrote the missive, What do you
37:43
Speaker 1: make of that, Morgan.
37:47
Speaker 4: I don't know. Sometimes in investigations you just have to say,
37:51
Speaker 4: I don't know. If it is a woman, you know,
37:53
Speaker 4: you'd have to look at it from a behavioral standpoint.
37:55
Speaker 4: A writing standpoint where there are words where their phrases
37:57
Speaker 4: turn of phrases that are consistent with the being used
38:00
Speaker 4: by women. Look, you were talking about it earlier. There's
38:03
Speaker 4: two sets of communications here, the original ones, the first
38:05
Speaker 4: two that Savannah believes. She tends to believe they're authentic.
38:09
Speaker 4: But I tend to think that you've got and I
38:12
Speaker 4: used to, like said, I train these guys, I've worked
38:14
Speaker 4: with these guys and girls. You can from a behavioral
38:16
Speaker 4: standpoint and a writing standpoint, you can start determining sex, origin, education,
38:20
Speaker 4: maybe region of the country. So it'd be very interesting
38:23
Speaker 4: to see if these were written directly or if they
38:26
Speaker 4: were generated by AI. A lot of people are disguising
38:28
Speaker 4: where they're coming from, a lot of scams or using
38:30
Speaker 4: AI now so you don't get the spelling errors. It
38:32
Speaker 4: looks very professional. So I don't think we've even been
38:35
Speaker 4: gone down that road yet to see how many of
38:37
Speaker 4: these were potentially generative AI versus directly written by the
38:41
Speaker 4: offenders or somebody with knowledge. So let's put this in perspective.
38:45
Speaker 4: Somebody has been able to send communications at the E
38:47
Speaker 4: that the FBI has not been able to track back,
38:49
Speaker 4: and they track back terrists, they track back fugitives all
38:52
Speaker 4: the time. They're able to set up a bitcoin wallet,
38:54
Speaker 4: a bitcoin address, but yet this person is not smart
38:57
Speaker 4: enough to strip the data out of a screenshot and
38:59
Speaker 4: send it. See, those things don't make sense. Those things
39:01
Speaker 4: why I should say that makes sense? Those are contradictory
39:04
Speaker 4: to each other. It is extremely elementary to strip data
39:07
Speaker 4: what they call exf exif data off of a picture,
39:10
Speaker 4: email it in one of those anonymous remailers that they're
39:13
Speaker 4: using and not have any way to track it back.
39:15
Speaker 4: That is grade school kind of stuff. So I don't
39:18
Speaker 4: That's why I don't buy the story.
39:21
Speaker 1: Marina O'Connell, the author of The Last Missive Wrinkled, and
39:25
Speaker 1: the idea he was a female, I find that primitive.
39:32
Speaker 9: I do too, And I'm one of the people that
39:35
Speaker 9: from the beginning when I first saw that said, I
39:37
Speaker 9: think this was written by a female for the reasons
39:40
Speaker 9: that you outlined earlier, but also because it seemed like
39:44
Speaker 9: it was trying to console the family members of Nancy.
39:49
Speaker 9: It was designed to lessen their own culpability, which doesn't
39:54
Speaker 9: lessen any culpability in my eyes or yours, I'm sure.
39:57
Speaker 9: So I just felt that those are tradition more feminine characteristics.
40:02
Speaker 9: But again, I you know, I agree with Morgan Wright.
40:08
Speaker 9: We don't know. It could have been an AI generated
40:11
Speaker 9: one to make it look like a woman. However, why
40:14
Speaker 9: would you even send that, Why would you even send that?
40:16
Speaker 9: If if you were just trying to convince yourself that,
40:19
Speaker 9: you know, convince people that you're a female, but also Nancy,
40:22
Speaker 9: if you if you think about it, how many cases
40:24
Speaker 9: are solved by a by a partner that is scorned
40:31
Speaker 9: you know, so if this is a is a female
40:33
Speaker 9: that they broke up with, or she was there when
40:36
Speaker 9: some of this stuff happened then and she feels bad
40:40
Speaker 9: about it now she's trying to say this to the family.
40:43
Speaker 9: I still don't buy it, but I can't say it
40:46
Speaker 9: didn't happen because I don't have enough information. It also
40:50
Speaker 9: makes no sense for this person to ask for one
40:52
Speaker 9: bitcoin and do it on a on a public platform
40:56
Speaker 9: like TMZ, when they could go straight to the FBI
40:59
Speaker 9: and say I have this information, I need protection, I'm
41:03
Speaker 9: in fear for my life and I want the one
41:05
Speaker 9: point two million dollars because I wasn't involved in the
41:07
Speaker 9: actual abduction and murder of Nancy.
41:13
Speaker 1: If you know or think you know anything about missus
41:16
Speaker 1: Guthrie's disappearance, dial eight hundred two two five five three
41:21
Speaker 1: two four if you wish to remain anonymous five two
41:24
Speaker 1: zero eight eight two seven four six three. There is
41:29
Speaker 1: a one point two plus million dollar reward on the table,
41:37
Speaker 1: which is another issue regarding this missive. Wanting fifty eight
41:41
Speaker 1: thousand dollars worth of bitcoin, why not I go for
41:43
Speaker 1: the one point two million. We remember tonight an American
41:48
Speaker 1: hero officer Kevin Apple, pe Ridge Police Department, Arkansas, killed
41:53
Speaker 1: in the line of duty after twenty three years, leaving
41:58
Speaker 1: behind his grieving mother. American hero Officer Kevin Apple. Thank
42:05
Speaker 1: you to our guest, but especially to you for being
42:07
Speaker 1: with us tonight. Nancy Gray signing off, but I'll see
42:09
Speaker 1: you tomorrow night, and until then, good night friend,