Latest / Love Your Gut / Ep. 106: What if its not SIBO, but SIFO? How fungus plays a role in GI symptoms

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Ep. 106: What if its not SIBO, but SIFO? How fungus plays a role in GI symptoms · Love Your Gut

• 0:03
  Dr. Heather Finley: Welcome to the Love Your Gut Podcast.
• 0:05
  Dr. Heather Finley: I'm your host, Dr.
• 0:06
  Dr. Heather Finley: Heather Finley, registered dietitian and gut health specialist.
• 0:10
  Dr. Heather Finley: I understand the frustration of dealing with GI issues because I've been there and I spent over two decades searching for answers for my own gut issues of constipation, bloating, and stomach pain.
• 0:21
  Dr. Heather Finley: I've dedicated my life to understanding and solving my own gut issues.
• 0:25
  Dr. Heather Finley: And now I'm here to guide you.
• 0:28
  Dr. Heather Finley: On this podcast, I'll help you identify the true root causes of your discomfort.
• 0:33
  Dr. Heather Finley: So you can finally ditch your symptoms for good.
• 0:36
  Dr. Heather Finley: My goal is to empower you with the knowledge and tools you need so that you can love your gut and it will love you right back.
• 0:43
  Dr. Heather Finley: So if you're ready to learn a lot, gain a deeper understanding of your gut and find lasting relief.
• 0:48
  Dr. Heather Finley: You are in the right place.
• 0:50
  Dr. Heather Finley: Welcome to the love your gut podcast.
• 0:55
  Have you ever treated SIBO like our clients?
• 0:58
  Maybe once, maybe multiple times, and either nothing changed or things actually got worse.
• 1:04
  Maybe the bloating came back, food reactions got worse.
• 1:08
  Maybe now you feel like you tolerate even less than you did before, and probably at some point you start wondering, what am I missing?
• 1:15
  Because what if it wasn't actually just SIBO at all?
• 1:19
  What if it's actually fungal overgrowth and the very things you're doing to try to fix your gut or actually contributing to making things worse?
• 1:29
  And that's where things get a little tricky because the symptoms can look so similar.
• 1:35
  Bloating gas, food sensitivities, brain fog, fatigue, sugar, cravings, feeling pregnant by the end of the day on paper, this looks like SIBO and you probably tested positive for it, but just because two things look the same doesn't mean they're coming from the exact same root causes.
• 1:51
  It's kind of like getting in your car and typing in the wrong destination.
• 1:55
  This actually happened to me the other day.
• 1:56
  I was going to a new dentist and I typed in the dentist's name.
• 2:01
  And I showed up at a different dentist office and I'm calling them going, I think I'm here.
• 2:06
  And they're like, we don't see you.
• 2:08
  I was so confident that I was there, but my destination was wrong.
• 2:13
  I, you can drive for a long time and still end up nowhere because you're going in the wrong direction.
• 2:20
  And honestly, I think that's what happens to a lot of women.
• 2:24
  With gut issues is they get this label.
• 2:27
  You have sibo, you have this.
• 2:30
  They get a protocol, they follow it perfectly.
• 2:32
  Our clients are not slackers.
• 2:35
  They are high achieving women who do who they.
• 2:38
  They do the thing, they follow the plan.
• 2:41
  They've done a lot of things, and it's not a lack of effort.
• 2:45
  It's a lack of clarity because if we're treating the wrong thing or only treating part of the problem, it makes so much sense why they say stuck.
• 2:54
  And that's exactly what I wanna talk about today because sometimes what looks like SIBO that won't go away is actually a sign that something else is going on underneath.
• 3:03
  So one of the reasons that this often gets missed is because SIBO gets all the attention.
• 3:08
  It's the popular girl.
• 3:10
  And to be clear, SIBO is real.
• 3:12
  It can actually be a part of the picture.
• 3:14
  But in a lot of cases, SIBO is not the only popular girl.
• 3:19
  It is just the loudest one.
• 3:20
  And when something becomes the main thing that everybody talks about, it becomes really easy to stop asking better questions.
• 3:28
  So someone gets bloated, they react to garlic, onions, fiber, their stomach blows up as the day goes on, and the immediate assumption is, well, it must be sibo or it must.
• 3:37
  Have been that the SI came back, then maybe they do a breath test, it comes back positive, maybe they don't even do a test, or you just start treating it right away.
• 3:45
  And from there, that treatment path tends to look pretty similar.
• 3:48
  Antibiotics, antimicrobials, restrictive diets, maybe a few motility medications or supplements.
• 3:55
  And again, sometimes this helps, but what we see clinically is that not every bloated gut is purely bacterial.
• 4:03
  And when we treat everything like sibo, we can actually push someone deeper into an imbalance.
• 4:08
  Because here's the thing, sometimes we get so focused on the tree.
• 4:13
  We can see that we completely miss the forest around it.
• 4:16
  And SIBO might be one tree, but what about where's digestion?
• 4:20
  Breaking down stomach acid.
• 4:22
  How is that bile not flowing?
• 4:25
  Minerals being depleted, fungal overgrowth happening in the background.
• 4:29
  The microbiome getting weaker every time we treat it.
• 4:32
  That is the forest.
• 4:34
  And if we keep going after the same tree over and over again.
• 4:38
  We miss the bigger reason that it keeps showing up.
• 4:41
  So while SIBO can absolutely be part of the picture, repeated, SIBO should be looked at as an invitation to look deeper.
• 4:50
  So to ask better questions, not just, how do I kill this?
• 4:54
  How do I get rid of this?
• 4:55
  What antibiotic do I take?
• 4:57
  But asking why did this happen in the first place?
• 5:01
  Why does it keep coming back?
• 5:02
  What else might be going on here that no one has looked at yet?
• 5:05
  That's really where things start to make a lot more sense and where symptoms actually start to shift because we see this all the time.
• 5:14
  I will tell you about one client we had named Sarah.
• 5:17
  I talked about her on Instagram the other day, and I got several messages back, like maybe this is me.
• 5:24
  So this Sarah had treated SIBO three times.
• 5:26
  She was positive for intestinal meth and overgrowth.
• 5:29
  So methane sibo, she was severely constipated.
• 5:32
  She said the first time that she treated sibo, she felt a lot better, and she said that that relief lasted like a month or two.
• 5:39
  So she, when she was on the antibiotic, she's like, okay, like maybe this is it.
• 5:44
  And then a couple months after the symptoms came back, her doctor was like, well, maybe we just need a longer treatment.
• 5:50
  So I think she did like then a month of treatment.
• 5:53
  And again, she felt better.
• 5:55
  And then again, the symptoms came back.
• 5:58
  So she goes back to the doctor.
• 6:00
  Third time, she said she was taking the antibiotics for the third time, and she's like, I felt horrible even while on the antibiotics.
• 6:08
  And she's like, something else is going on.
• 6:11
  Her symptoms were just getting weirder and stronger.
• 6:14
  She was more reactive, she was more bloated, more sensitive.
• 6:18
  Her body just seemed less resilient overall.
• 6:21
  And that's the part that made her pause and wonder like, what else is going on?
• 6:26
  So here's what can happen inside your gut.
• 6:29
  You have all kinds of microbes living in there.
• 6:32
  Some are bacteria, some are fungi, ArcHa, et cetera.
• 6:36
  Ideally, they kind of all keep each other in check.
• 6:38
  It's like a neighborhood.
• 6:40
  If there are enough good neighbors around, things stay pretty balanced.
• 6:44
  But if a bunch of the neighbors suddenly leave now there's empty houses, empty space, something else moves in.
• 6:51
  That's what can happen after repeated antibiotics.
• 6:54
  Even though a lot of the SIBO antibiotics can be quote unquote, like gentler on the gut, they're still going to do something.
• 7:02
  Antibiotics can reduce certain bacteria in the gut, and sometimes that happens for a little while, especially if bacteria are really overgrown.
• 7:11
  Uh, but antibiotics don't always fix the why or really they don't at all fix the why.
• 7:19
  Why did the SIBO happen?
• 7:21
  And they can also lower the bacterial competition that helps keep fungus from overgrowing.
• 7:27
  So now you've created more space in the gut and like fungi, like candida or what we call opportunistic, which is basically just a fancy way of saying they take advantage when the environment shift.
• 7:38
  When the neighborhood, um, when people move outta the neighborhood or the parking lot, whatever analogy you wanna use.
• 7:44
  So if bacteria are reduced while digestion is weak, motility is slow, terrain is off, fungus can start stepping in to fill that gap, and that can look really similar to sibo.
• 7:57
  So now that we talked about how the microbiome can shift, I wanna zoom out just a little further because we can't just talk about what's growing in the gut.
• 8:07
  We also wanna talk about what the body is able to control, and that starts at the very top of digestion, your stomach acid, which if you've been listening to this podcast, you've heard this over and over again.
• 8:21
  Your stomach acid is one of your body's first lines of defense.
• 8:25
  It helps to break down food, activate enzymes, kill off unwanted microbes before they move further down, so when stomach acid is strong, you have a really good security system at your house.
• 8:39
  So you can imagine your gut, kind of like your house.
• 8:42
  Stomach acid is the front door with a lock security system.
• 8:45
  If that door is strong and secure, only the right things get in, right?
• 8:50
  But if that door is weak or left wide open, you're gonna have a lot of stuff coming in.
• 8:54
  Bacteria, fungus, partially digested food.
• 8:57
  And so when stomach acid is low, food isn't broken down, proteins will sit heavier.
• 9:03
  Carbs are gonna.
• 9:04
  Ferment.
• 9:05
  And instead of being properly digested, they become fuel.
• 9:08
  Fuel for bacteria, fuel for fungus.
• 9:11
  That's when fermentation can start to happen, leading to gas, bloating, pressure that builds throughout the day.
• 9:18
  And fungus especially thrive in that kind of environment because they love sugar or carbohydrates and partially digested food.
• 9:27
  If meals aren't broken down, well, especially higher carb meals, that becomes the perfect setup for fungal overgrowth.
• 9:34
  Now, before you just go cutting out all carbs, let me tell you that that's not the fix either.
• 9:39
  But once we wanna layer in how slow digestion or poor motility adds to this as well, your gut is like a tube, right?
• 9:51
  And so it moves food through and helps it exit.
• 9:55
  As it's digested and broken down.
• 9:57
  So if things are moving slowly, that fuel is just gonna sit there longer, which gives microbes, bacteria, fungus, et cetera, more time to grow.
• 10:05
  So that's why it's not just about what you're eating.
• 10:08
  We have to look at how the body can break down and control food because you could be eating the quote unquote perfect diet.
• 10:17
  But if your digestion is still weak, it's still gonna create problems.
• 10:20
  It's so common that I'll get on discovery calls with women and they're like, I eat so well.
• 10:25
  Like, I know more about food than than anybody.
• 10:29
  And I'm like, I bet, you know.
• 10:31
  But.
• 10:32
  There's so much more to the picture, and this is the part that's really important because many of these things people have already gone through can actually make things worse over time.
• 10:43
  Things like repeated antibiotics, history of h pylori infections, long-term acid suppressing medications, gallbladder removal, or sluggish bile flow, chronic stress, all of those things are going to impact digestion as well as motility.
• 10:59
  We know that antibiotics can disrupt the microbiome and weaken overall resilience.
• 11:06
  We know that h pylori is gonna lower stomach acid, acid blockers, literally reduce stomach acid.
• 11:12
  Gallbladder issues are not talked about enough, but they impact bile, which helps break down fats.
• 11:19
  And bile is also antimicrobial, so this can be a huge piece for SIBO and sifo.
• 11:25
  And then stress shuts down digestion from the top down.
• 11:28
  So now we just have this perfect storm weaker digestion, less microbial control, more available fuel, and that's an environment for overgrowth, especially fungus.
• 11:38
  So if you've only been focusing on what to remove without rebuilding your digestion, you may be trying to clean up the mess without actually ever fixing what's creating it.
• 11:47
  I think of this like having kids, right?
• 11:49
  I love my kids, but.
• 11:51
  Sometimes I feel like I am cleaning up a mess only for them to go make another mess.
• 11:56
  And we've been working on this a lot where I'm like, okay, we put things away, et cetera.
• 12:00
  But you know, kids are kids, right?
• 12:02
  So you might feel like I just swep the floors and now they just walked in from the outside and there's dirt over the floor.
• 12:09
  That's kind of what's happening in the gut.
• 12:11
  If we're just focusing on the SIBO or we're just focusing on food and we're not focusing on the whole system.
• 12:18
  So this is why so many people feel confused because they'll say, but I did feel better on low FODMAP and honestly.
• 12:26
  That makes sense because low FODMAP reduces a lot of the carbohydrates that are easy for microbes to ferment.
• 12:33
  So in the short term, that less fermentation is gonna mean less bloating, less gas, less discomfort, and that can be a huge relief.
• 12:42
  But the part that most people are never told is repair and relief are not always the same thing.
• 12:47
  So what's actually happening long term is while a restrictive diet can reduce the symptoms long term, it actually is changing the microbiome in ways that make you more vulnerable.
• 12:58
  So when you stay on a diet like that too long, it will reduce fiber that feeds your beneficial bacteria.
• 13:04
  Microbial diversity, which helps to keep the ecosystem really resilient, short chain fatty acids, which support the gut lining and lower inflammation.
• 13:13
  And it's also going to affect things like your gut lining or leaky gut, like the internet calls it.
• 13:18
  It, bowel regularity, detox pathways, estrogen clearance, uh, overall microbe balance.
• 13:25
  So yeah, symptoms calm down, but underneath that ecosystem is getting weaker.
• 13:30
  It's like growing a garden.
• 13:33
  A healthy garden has lots of different plants.
• 13:36
  Different roots, different shapes, different sizes of plants.
• 13:38
  That diversity is what helps keep weeds from taking over.
• 13:42
  But if you start just cutting everything back, taking out more, eventually the soil gets weaker, and when the soil gets weaker, it's easier for the wrong things to spread.
• 13:53
  And that's what happens in the gut when bacterial diversity starts to drop.
• 13:57
  There's less competition.
• 13:59
  Fungus can move in.
• 14:00
  Someone might say, I felt better at first, but now I'm reacting just like our client, right?
• 14:05
  So here's the key thing.
• 14:06
  You feel better underneath that ecosystem is getting weaker.
• 14:11
  And why does, where does fungus or CFO come into this?
• 14:17
  One of the reasons I think that fungal overgrowth gets missed so often is because there's not a simple clear cut test for sifo like sibo.
• 14:29
  With sibo.
• 14:30
  People often do a breath test.
• 14:31
  It's not perfect, but it can give something to point to.
• 14:35
  With fungal overgrowth, it's a lot murer.
• 14:38
  There's no easy breath test.
• 14:39
  And stool testing can give us some clues, but it also has its limitations and it's not necessarily diagnostic of cfo.
• 14:47
  So fungus can be harder to catch fungus also may not always show up on a stool test'cause it can.
• 14:54
  They may not be shedding at the time of the test.
• 14:56
  Sometimes what we're seeing is less about some giant fungal infection and more just about a microbiome that's like shifted in that direction.
• 15:05
  So that's what makes this tricky is that a lot of the symptoms do overlap.
• 15:09
  Things like bloating, gas, brain fog, fatigue.
• 15:12
  So it's easy to see or see why somebody would think this is sibo.
• 15:18
  And sometimes it's both SIBO and sifo, and that's where pattern recognition can be so helpful, because even when the symptoms overlap, there's these little clues that tell us that terrain may be shifting more towards a fungal.
• 15:32
  So some of the patterns that we wanna pay attention to would be strong sugar or carb cravings.
• 15:37
  Now.
• 15:38
  This can also be a lot of other things.
• 15:40
  So this does not automatically mean that you have sifo, not just like I like Sweetss, but more like intense cravings after meals, needing sugar to feel satisfied, feeling like carbs really affect your system.
• 15:53
  That can be a clue, that the microbiome is asking for more fuel.
• 15:57
  You can also notice this if.
• 15:59
  Symptoms flare more after carbs, sweets, or alcohol.
• 16:01
  A lot of people with fungal patterns will notice that they feel off after sugar desserts, carbs, wine, alcohol.
• 16:09
  And not just like bloated, but like itchy, inflamed, puffy off, and then skin and external symptoms can be another one.
• 16:17
  Things like recurring rashes, itching, dandruff, fungal acne, stubborn skin stuff, vaginal yeast infections.
• 16:26
  Symptoms that get weirder after repeated antibiotics like our client, this could possibly be a clue, feeling inflamed or puffy in just a way that feels like, why am I so swollen?
• 16:39
  And then food reactions that feel really unpredictable.
• 16:43
  Like I just, some days I tolerate it, some days I don't.
• 16:47
  Everything is irritating.
• 16:48
  My body is just so reactive.
• 16:50
  So.
• 16:51
  While a stool test does not diagnose cfo, it can be a clue and it can be helpful.
• 16:59
  And that's what we found for this client that I'm talking about and many other clients too.
• 17:04
  So we don't wanna just say, oh yes, everybody who's not responding to antibiotics or feels worse has sifo.
• 17:12
  But this is where some testing can be really, really helpful at just taking a deeper look at, what's actually going on.
• 17:20
  So one of the tools that we use is stool testing.
• 17:23
  like I said, it's not completely perfect, but it can give us those clues about yeast markers, other bacterial imbalances, whether beneficial bacteria are low, whether someone has missing keystone bacteria to help protect their gut.
• 17:38
  we also will use HTMA testing to just look at the overall body absorption, terrain, et cetera.
• 17:44
  This, the mineral piece is so important.
• 17:48
  Especially when someone has chronic SIBO or just chronic underlying gut infections, especially things like low sodium and potassium.
• 17:57
  This can point to a more stressed pattern in the body.
• 18:01
  When the body is stuck in that stress depleted state, digestion will weaken.
• 18:05
  Stomach acid goes down, motility slows down.
• 18:08
  The body's overall less resilient.
• 18:10
  We might see things like low zinc or copper imbalances.
• 18:14
  Zinc is such a big one because zinc is really needed to help support healthy stomach acid production.
• 18:19
  This can be one of the reasons that someone isn't breaking down food well in the first place.
• 18:23
  Kind of going back to that stomach acid piece, uh, same thing with copper.
• 18:27
  It's one that often gets overlooked, but so, so helpful for immune function energy.
• 18:33
  Resilience.
• 18:34
  The body can have a harder time regulating what's going on in the gut when copper is off.
• 18:39
  And one thing that I really want you to understand is that if your overall foundations are not supported, your body's really depleted from a bacteria standpoint, from a mineral standpoint, it really does not matter.
• 18:54
  What type of overgrowth we're talking about, sibo, sifo, whatever.
• 18:59
  Your body can't regulate it, and that's why just killing things over and over again usually doesn't create long-term change because if the environment stays weak, something else is going to step in.
• 19:11
  So when we work with clients, we're not just looking for a label, we're looking for the whole system.
• 19:16
  What's overgrown, what's missing, what's weak?
• 19:19
  what does the body need in order to regulate again?
• 19:21
  And that's really what changes.
• 19:23
  Everything we can zoom out and really look at all of this.
• 19:26
  You can start to see why so many people feel like they've been stuck on this rollercoaster for so many years.
• 19:34
  not just throwing antibiotics at the problem, to only get lasting relief.
• 19:39
  I know a lot of times I'll use the analogy of getting off that SIBO rollercoaster.
• 19:44
  It can feel so defeating because you start a protocol, you feel really hopeful.
• 19:48
  Maybe your symptoms are bloating goes down and you think, okay, this is finally it.
• 19:53
  And then just like our client, a few weeks later, a month later, you start reintroducing foods, you crash.
• 19:58
  Right back down, and, and feel like you're just kind of on this rollercoaster that you can't get off of.
• 20:06
  So you might be thinking, okay, then what do I do?
• 20:09
  The answer is to not just keep trying new supplements or crazy protocols or the next food to cut out.
• 20:16
  The answer is to support the body in a way to help it regulate again.
• 20:20
  And when we work with clients that usually.
• 20:23
  That usually means that we're looking at a few key things.
• 20:26
  Number one, supporting digestion.
• 20:28
  We have to rebuild digestion from the top down.
• 20:31
  That means supporting things like stomach acid production, digestive enzymes, bile flow, because we have to make sure that the body's breaking down food well, so we're not feeding the problem.
• 20:42
  Number two is restore motility.
• 20:45
  We have to get the gut to move because.
• 20:48
  If we can't get the body to actually move things, we can't get rid of anything.
• 20:53
  We don't want food or microbes just sitting there.
• 20:56
  That creates the perfect environment for overgrowth to keep happening.
• 21:00
  We also wanna rebuild microbiome diversity.
• 21:03
  This is a big one.
• 21:05
  It's, often missed.
• 21:07
  You do a SIBO protocol, but then there's never any discussion about how do we rebuild the gut?
• 21:13
  What do we need to do to support overgrowth, depleted microbes, the gut lining.
• 21:19
  and how do we do that from a nutrition perspective, lifestyle perspective, supplement perspective.
• 21:25
  we have to help rebuild a stronger, more resilient ecosystem.
• 21:29
  and that's not just through taking probiotics, that's through looking at diet, that's through looking at prebiotic, short chain, fatty acids, et cetera.
• 21:37
  Then we can address the fungal bacterial balance when needed.
• 21:41
  if there's both, the key is to make sure that the foundations are in place.
• 21:47
  and then the last thing.
• 21:49
  And definitely not the thing that we would do last, but the last thing that I'll mention is minerals in the nervous system.
• 21:55
  This is the piece that so many people skip because if the body is stressed, depleted, undernourished, or stuck in survival mode, digestion is going to stay weaker.
• 22:05
  Motility is gonna stay slower.
• 22:07
  And the body's gonna have a much harder time regulating what's going on.
• 22:10
  So yes, sometimes the gut issue is also a nervous system issue.
• 22:16
  I know many of you have been told, oh, you're just stressed.
• 22:19
  I know that you're not just stressed, but stress is a component.
• 22:24
  even having gut infections is a stress on your system.
• 22:27
  And so we have to allow the body to feel safe again.
• 22:30
  And mineral depletion will also make it harder for your body to buffer stress.
• 22:35
  So as we rebuild those mineral reserves, your body will buffer stress better.
• 22:40
  And that is what sometimes turn the lights back on for people.
• 22:44
  So if your gut symptoms keep coming back, the question that I want you to ask is, what does my body need in order to become a place where overgrowth stops thriving?
• 22:57
  That's a very different question from what do I need to get rid of?
• 23:01
  Which is what most people are asking.
• 23:03
  So if you're thinking, this is me, I'm stuck, I've tried everything.
• 23:08
  This is what I'm teaching on Sunday in my webinar, because this is the stuff that I really wish more women were told before they went through rounds and rounds of treatment and end up more and more confused.
• 23:20
  I will walk you through why your SIBO keeps coming back.
• 23:23
  More specifics on the five systems that actually control gut healing.
• 23:27
  How to figure out your root cause, what your next steps are, how to get your body out of that stuck state.
• 23:33
  Give you some real life examples.
• 23:35
  You'll also get my SIBO supplement guide, so make sure that you're there.
• 23:39
  The link is in the show notes.
• 23:41
  this is Sunday, March 29th if you're listening to this in real time.
• 23:45
  And then if this episode hit home for you, I really hope it gave you a little bit of relief that you don't have to stay in this cycle.
• 23:52
  If you've been stuck in this cycle, it's not because you're gonna be in this cycle forever, it's because we have to ask the right questions and we have to identify all the pieces of the puzzle, which is totally possible.
• 24:04
  So I hope that you enjoyed this.
• 24:06
  I hope that this was helpful.
• 24:08
  Always reach out if you have any thoughts or questions, and I'll catch you next week on the next episode.