Latest / Afzal's Reset Entropy Podcast / What Was Really Running Underneath — Jay Sapovits on Rebuilding After Everything Collapsed

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What Was Really Running Underneath — Jay Sapovits on Rebuilding After Everything Collapsed · Afzal's Reset Entropy Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: The person who looks fine on the paper and feels disconnected inside.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_02: That is who I build reset and trophy for.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_02: But today's guest is something different.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_02: He's the person who looked fine on the paper.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_02: Private jets, major brand deals, the whole thing.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_02: And then hit a wall.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_02: So hard that the paper version of himself could not survive it.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_02: What came after is what I want to explore.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_02: Not the business he built, the person who emerged after the loop stopped running the show.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_02: Jay Sportwitz, founder of Ink Stores, husband, father, and someone who learned the hard way that the anchor was never the next venture.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_02: Let's go.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_02: I I want to start somewhere that most podcast conversation about you probably do not start.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: Not with inked, not with the success story.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: I want to start with the gambling part.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: Not because it is a dramatic detail, but because it is in the work I do about the helping founders decoding the emotional patterns running their decisions.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_02: I have come to believe that what someone reaches for when the pressure is peaks, when they tell you everything about what is actually running inside them, and that pressure when it's high, people try to reach out somewhere.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: So our listeners understand the terrain, the whole terrain itself.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: But I I didn't start anything on my own.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: But gambling ended for me.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: Some people run to things that are good for them.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: Any you know, shopping, right?
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: Any number of harmful behaviors.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, for me, it was it just was so early in my life, it doesn't feel like it has much relevance to where I'm at today.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I I need to maintain vigilance to it, or else I can find myself moving into one of those other avenues of escape.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_02: So has it has it happened that uh you tried to uh deviate towards other avenues like that?
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yo, for sure.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know I was when I put the when I put the gambling down in '97, I had a career run of 10, 11 years that was off the charts.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: And what I got most consumed by during that run was ego.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: So that ego led me to think that I was invincible, and no matter what I touched, I was going to be successful at it.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because it wasn't the it wasn't the structures I was in, it wasn't the vehicles that I was using for success, it was me.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: So have you ever heard the term you can sell ice to an Eskimo?
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: No, I don't.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_02: I haven't.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's something somebody says about somebody who's a really good salesperson.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: But let me explain the truth.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: You can't sell you can't sell ice to an Eskimo because they don't need it.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I in my own mind believed I could.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so I failed miserably, publicly, not great, um, ripped my ego to shreds, very, very, very harmful emotionally.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, from that, um, had to rebuild my life.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: And a few years later, I just kind of looked at my patterns, right?
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: Which is if I like something, you know, if one makes me feel good, imagine how two or three will make me feel.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I just eliminated all drugs, alcohol, and mind-altering substances.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: So in doing that, I was able to see some more truths about escape, about my own invincibility.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, clear mind and and dive deeper into my recovery, which I moved away from, right?
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I was not gambling, but I got away from my recovery because you know, I had great success early, and then I did it on my own.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: Heard this story many times before, having conversations with people who think like me.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, yeah, I recommitted myself to recovery over uh 10 years plus, probably closer to uh 11 plus.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: And um yeah, since that time period, uh you know, I've been very fortunate that uh we've been able to you know kind of turn things into the you know, into a very very positive existence.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_02: So um that that sounds it up the the whole trajectory to be honest, how uh that there was a maybe a surface level, but there's so much underneath the whole process and the journey, what you explained.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: And uh from what you told, I believe the trajectory was kind of scale success.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_02: There was a collapse and there was a rebuild altogether as well.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_02: And uh most people who tell that kind of a story, uh, many times they happen to tell that as a linear journey, you know, but not everyone tells the whole structure how that happened for them, and failure led to growth.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I want to go somewhere different with it because in my framework, the collapse is almost never random.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: The specific way uh founders' uh business breaks, the specific moment they hit the wall, let's say, is uh almost always the loop surfacing.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_02: There's a hidden loop inside which keeps on running underneath.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_02: You can call it emotional or something which is happening since childhood.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: There can be many iterations of it, and that pattern that was running underneath everything finally becomes allowed enough that it cannot be managed anymore and it surfaces.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_02: And when that happens, that is generally the hitting the wall scenario, or you know, going down the trajectory.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_02: That is when we get hit by it.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I want to understand what your loop was, if you can name it, not what happened externally, but what was uh running internally that made that external collapse feel you know inevitable in hindsight?
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's you know, it's funny.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's a good question, it's very astute.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I believe I know the answer to it.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the answer came to me through therapy uh while I was uh getting myself clean and sober relative to any outside substances complete.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: And what did it for me was something that a therapist said to me based on my upbringing and childhood.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: So my dad was a 32-year, he's who introduced me to the racetrack and gambling.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: He's a 32-year teacher at a place called Chester High School in Southside of Philadelphia.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's a very tough neighborhood.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: First school in Pennsylvania had metal detectors on the doors, 1979.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, just a really, really tough, tough physical, you know, tough place, right?
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of gun violence in the town, um, poverty level high, very, very um hard neighborhood.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: We moved from there.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: Now he taught there at the high school.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: We moved from there to a town called Chadsport, Pennsylvania.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: Chadsport is suburbs of Wilmington, Delaware, DuPont estate, Winchethur is uh gardens called Longwood Gardens.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: Winterthur is there close to it.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, a lot of affluent families, uh very different than Chester.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: My grandmother lived with us growing up, my dad's mother.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: When my dad was the baseball coach, he was for 15 plus years.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: After school, when I was very young, my grandmother would drive me from Chadsport to Chester.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: 12, 14 miles, world apart.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: World apart, right?
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: You're in New York City?
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, think of the worst neighborhood you could uh think of in in in with New York City, right?
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh quick like Crown Point, what is it?
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: What's uh uh what what are some what are some bad neighborhoods in New York?
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like I I don't know the bad neighbors.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_02: I I had just visited in November, but I don't know exactly the neighborhoods.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_02: But I got the idea because I was walking on the street randomly, so I could understand what you mean that feeling-wise.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: So my therapist said to me, No wonder you she said, it's no wonder that you have that you're confused.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: You always were in a situation where you either felt not good enough or better then.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, like, I don't go to Chester and think I'm better than anybody, and I don't go to Chad's Ford and live in Chad's Ford and think that I'm not good enough, but how we think we think and how our subconscious shapes us are very different.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: Very true.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so when I look back at it, that resonated with me and made sense, not necessarily on the level of feeling it because I didn't feel it, though it could be part of me, but under the guise of always being in judgment of where I was at.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: So when you talk about the questions, what was the underlying loop that existed in my life?
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: The underlying loop for me was I was always constantly in a position of judgment, and that judgment was you're doing great, you're doing terrible, you're good enough, you're not good enough, you should be here, you shouldn't be here.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: It it just so you know when you're always standing in judgment of you, yourself, everything around you, the people in your world, and every situation, you can't succeed in that head case.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's too it's too uh volatile emotionally, and you never truly capture an identity and are able to just go forward towards something.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: You're always looking left and right behind you, up down, and you're always unstable.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: So that is what I believe the constant loop in my life was.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um I don't feel like I have it anymore.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_02: Hmm.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_02: That that gives a lot of insight.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_02: I I never thought of it that way.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_02: You know, some sometimes the other person shows your light because they are the observer and they see you as an observer that we ourselves don't understand because we are inside that tunnel vision of our own life, and uh that insight you must have gotten really must have changed your life altogether, you know.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_02: Initially you might have just glanced through that, but over the course, like you said, it kept uh coming back in your conscious mind this time, not only in your co subconscious, and you must have gotten a lot of insight, and and you still remember that, that means it was actually a big chunk part of what was happening at that time of your life.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: So uh let me ask you something directly in other way of uh life is um in work, uh I talk about sixteen emotional loop profiles which I have generated, and one of them is what I call an achiever loop uh the person who cannot stop chasing the next thing, and not from the ambition perspective, but from something older, you know, a system that learned early that uh forward motion is the only safe state, uh stopping really stopping is very dangerous.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_02: And um, I went through uh uh your LinkedIn, and uh, because I had gotten your uh profile, so I I just saw there's there's so many things you have done throughout your course of your journey, and there was mention of real estate, there was sport fitness with Amazon, there is uh uh there was simultaneously gambling part, and uh from that perspective, I wanted to understand that uh from the outside those look like different things, you know.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_02: But from where I sit, they look like the same thing wearing like different clothes.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_02: It's just like it felt like that there was different different targets uh you were trying to hit at that time.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_02: But uh what I wanted to understand is when you went through all of this journey, you must have gotten like different different insights which connected you to who you truly are and why you went on the direction of int.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: That is what I want to understand.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_02: That what kind of insights you got from all the different line of work which you did, and then you decided no, this is the path which uh which connects me with me to the most because, like you mentioned about the sales part also that you that was driving to the ego, and something must have clicked here in your head that okay, this is it.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I've been in the same spot now for 14 years.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: I definitely had rough patch in the middle, right?
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I shared about.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you know, early on I was just climbing a ladder.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but to your point, yeah, for sure.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: I was chasing success, I was chasing status, I always was looking for what the next best thing was gonna be, and my ego was what propelled me.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I think now and why I click on this business is I'm never gonna be so if you're listening, look, nobody's listening to this interview thinking, oh my gosh, they just captured the next Steve Jobs or Jeff Bezos.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's taken me a while to uh come around and understand that there's very, very few of those type.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, you know, probably not the best entrepreneur you've even spoken with.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I'm okay with that, right?
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like I know my skills, I know what it takes and took and continues to to be where I'm at.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, we feed a lot of families here at this company, and um I've kind of re-evaluated what's important.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't mean that I don't chase success.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: I I do just as a different, it's just evolved differently.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um I look when I put down substances was a big deal, but really abandoning self and getting out of my ego was the bigger deal.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um being able to look back and understand that who I was and who I am aren't very related.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I was just play acting my way through early life in many ways, trying to be the bigger shot than I really was.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I'm just super comfortable now in my own skin because like I don't know, I guess I care what you think, but not that much.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I know it's kind of at a healthy level, right?
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: I care on the level of I want you to, you know, think I'm a decent guy, but if I've not done anything to you to shape that opinion otherwise, uh, you know, I'm not just not some of my business what you think of me.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I kind of do my best to just be myself, and it's not my business what you think.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I try not to make it my business what you think.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean the unlock for me was just the unlock for me was losing my judgment.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh stop stop trying to control the universe and run the world through my eyes, you know, realize your perspective is yours and matters too.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: Appreciating you for having your perspective and not trying to force mine on you, definitely, and you know, being kind of accepting towards all of it.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: So um, I like to say I like to come and go in anonymity now.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: So if I go to a party or an event, I want to come in, be as additive as I can, and not have anyone talk about me.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: And not be as you know, I don't need to be the center of attention.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, I mean I guess that's how I'd answer that question.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: I it's um I strive to just be authentic, and you know, I think that should be good enough.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's good enough for me.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's enough.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_02: Definitely.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: As long as you feel connected to yourself in the end, that that matters the most, you know.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_02: That like you mentioned that you are very comfortable right now with yourself.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_02: That that that hits the main mark, I believe.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: That is what I uh teach entrepreneurs and founders as well.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but if I have to ask you inside of uh in general, that uh I have a line which I come back to constantly.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_02: The setback is not evidence that you chose wrong, the setback is the setup.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: In every loop you have not decoded yet, have to surface somehow.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_02: And throughout the journey which you mentioned of different works and everything, it surfaces as a hit.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_02: Let's say in failure, let's say in development, let's say in achieving something great you have, and in that moment that external structure collapses enough that uh internal pattern finally becomes visible.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like you said, that you got connected to yourself a lot more better.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: But uh what was the internal experience of that?
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_02: Not not the not just the business decision, the moment in your body when you knew, you know.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: One of the business, like it's over.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_02: What was that like?
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_02: How how did you feel that time?
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: And then what made you step up and go back out again and do that next thing?
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: What was that feeling like?
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, look, I had three kids under the age of 10.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I made a very simple choice.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: They were either going to watch the dad quit, or they were going to be part of the comeback story.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: And it took me a minute to get my head straight so I could come back.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: But I never stopped moving my feet during that time.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought it was going to be years sooner because I had was on to a good opportunity right after my failure, but apparently that wasn't the time that it was meant to be.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: And when I say I want something, I don't know if what I want is what's good for me.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: And oftentimes it isn't.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: So your premise of the failure being the start, like I don't know that had I been successful, listen, I'm in an ego-driven rampage through my through a 10-year run of running with billionaires, right?
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I could have been dead 12 years ago if I was successful financially.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, isn't that true?
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: So your premise is very simple, is that in failure, we actually succeed.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: True.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: Because we take this, we take, we, you know, we got the fork in the road.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I took this fork.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: Right now, some people take this fork, right?
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: Suicide, drugs, and alcohol kill them, uh, divorces, uh abandonment, continued usage, all that.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, stop, right?
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: That happens.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes, you know, they they just uh could the whole idea of getting something new and doing something on their own to, you know, just uh trying to get a job and then settle and leave everything out altogether, their ambition, their work, their thinking, everything also.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: That is also one of the routes many people try to take.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's there's multiple routes, right?
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: But this was a fork in the road, and I took what I believe to be the better fork.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, for it, I've been slowly but surely uh rewarded with uh serenity and some peace.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you know, the serenity of peace comes with the next right thing.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just really doing the next right thing.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's like next right thing, next right thing, next right thing, and it's living a boring life.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like I don't live the most exciting life now.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I'm okay with that.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_02: That that is very true, you know, that bridging the gap and keeping the faith and belief system still intact, like you said, that that takes the maximum courage, I would say, then rather than the just going forward.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_02: That that belief needs to be strong.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I I have seen many po many founders who have fundraised a lot and they they end up uh just decline in declining or that they just end up uh uh sabotaging their work when when there's a bottom which they hit.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_02: Not only in the business but in their personal life as well.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_02: And uh the faith and the belief system to keep themselves moving forward is a very big thing to have, uh, especially during a time of crisis.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: And uh yeah, I also think I also think that I was very fortunate though, because I had already made that decision one time in my life before.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I knew it.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like I knew that there was a way out, and that way out, and again, I'm just talking, I'm not I I did not relapse from gambling.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: I I'm talking about ego, I'm talking about self-destructive behavior, I'm talking about like crazy like thinking.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um I knew there was a way out, and that way out was to recommit myself to when I originally got clear-headed, and so that knowledge that that existed propelled me to be able to make those same choices decade a decade plus almost a decade and a half later.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_02: True.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_02: So basically, I I I can I can link back here the the same uh example which I'd given earlier of being inside the tunnel and then being an observer.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_02: So I think in your uh case that time, as you had already been through that similar situation, you knew this time you were you stepped out of that situation and saw yourself as an observer and took uh moment's time to understand the whole situation and you know take the decision which is best for yourself rather than being emotionally driven inside that uh linear line of it.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: And uh Yeah, but but but but but you know I guess what I would say to that is um don't you think that we always know right from wrong?
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_02: True, yes, we do.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_02: I believe highly in intuition also.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: So about even people making the wrong decisions in moments, right?
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like you know you're making the wrong, you're just making that so it's all big choice, right?
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: I hear it often because I you know I do a lot of work around recovery and recovery houses and mental health issues, and I hear it often, like people say, like, oh man, it's so hard to quit name that gambling, whatever.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: Drink alcohol, drugs, it's so hard to and I I'll say, like, well, isn't living this way hard too?
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: So it's all choice, and the challenge is when you're in the middle of it or going through it, uh, it doesn't feel like it is.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: And it it's hard to it's hard to separate, but ultimately it comes down to like how you want to live, how you see yourself, and and what you want for your life.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: And we only get one spin, so um yeah, it's a hard way to do it.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: And a short way, and a short way too.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: And if you have kids, life, things to live for, um, which most everybody has something to live for.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, heck, it could be a sports team, could be anything, really.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's no nobody has to you don't you don't have to gatekeep what someone else's values are.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, it's uh I I would it it's make the right choice.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_02: Correct, true.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_02: And uh I also uh add to that uh I also believe which I uh I just uh found in many people, even in myself, that I came across very recently that this right choices and this intuitive uh choices which we make is very highly driven by the state of emotion we are in and that moment of time.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_02: And and uh you know sometimes the ego, sometimes the anger, sometimes the sadness, they are all there.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes happiness also you can say, but um to get the the most authentic intuitive choice, you have to step out of it for a moment, take your time, relax, and you know, see it as an observer rather than just driving it through that emotional charge altogether.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's what I believe as well.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I couldn't agree more.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, but again, yeah, while I agree with you, I still go back to you still have a choice.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: So one of the things when I am talking to someone who's in this state is like, listen, like all the decisions that you're making, like we like to blow decisions up to the larger than moments in time spaces, right?
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: But the truth is everything's done in a moment.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're gonna go to the casino or you're not, that's not a decision that you made in a day.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's a decision you made this moment.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: So if you don't make that decision in the moment, right?
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna eat this cookie, I'm not gonna eat this cookie, I'm gonna have this drink, I'm not gonna have this drink.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: Now, that said, you might have to make that decision a hundred times because you have a hundred different thoughts in a hundred different moments.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: But if you can just win that five-second, three-second, two-second moment, yeah, you can win.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: And we become so reactionary, right?
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like, oh, I got a text message, I got to get to my phone, I gotta answer, I got an email.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, no, you and I are having a conversation, and we're gonna be on for what 45 minutes, an hour, whatever it turns out to be.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't answered one email.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think my life is is materially different because I haven't answered any of those emails or texts that I've gotten in the last hour?
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_02: Nope.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: So when you get the when you when you get the angry text message from a loved one you hurt, don't do anything.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_02: I I try to calm myself first because I know the anger will just create another repercussion.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: First thing you do when you want to dig out of a hole, you know what it is to analyze it?
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: Stop digging.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: True.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, my wife's upset with something.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: She sends me a text message about something that she's not happy with.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: Nothing I text back to her immediately, she's not gonna go, oh, I'm sorry, I was looking at it the exact wrong way.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: I I was wrong, not you.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: No, people get their hair on their back up, they're like, think they're right, like calm, pause, don't take action, let moments pass.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: I want to go gamble.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, that's this moment, but you know what?
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: Just like you had this thought in this moment, you could have another thought in another moment, but if you don't act on this moment, like you'll get by it.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: So putting space between thoughts and action is super relevant.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's true.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_02: I agree.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_02: On on on the family note, you mentioned family so many times, and I also uh uh saw one of the YouTube episodes that was revolving around uh family stability fueling entrepreneurship, and uh you have uh talked publicly about family stability, and uh I want to sit with uh that because in the research entropy framework is uh one of the things I teach is that your passion, the thing that is genuinely yours, is not a reward you earn after the business is stable, it is that anchor itself that makes everything else survivable.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: And for most founders, running an achiever loop family feels like a competitive demand, you know, taking their attention altogether, and another thing, you know, pulling at attention or needs to go to the business or something in that direction, another source of guilt, also you can say when the business takes everything.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_02: But you describe it the other way around, family as the thing that makes the business, you know, possible.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_02: How that how did you arrive to that?
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_02: Because I suspect it was not your starting position at that time.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was the exact opposite.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: I was one of those founders, they were in the way, it was annoying.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um they were a nuisance, they were a distraction, and um, it just is a total reframework.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I stepped back and looked at my life, who I wanted to be, where I was, and looked to the future and uh, you know, made a change.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: And if you say, like, what do you mean you made a change?
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I made a change.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I realized, you know, that I wasn't I wasn't where and who and how I wanted to be.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so, as I said to you before, I think everybody understands the difference between right and wrong.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so I just started compounding wins by doing the right thing.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: And when you're doing the right thing, it's the opposite of the wrong thing, right?
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: Because I wasn't really ever a neutral guy, so yeah, it was a total mind shift for me, and I just made the choice to make it a mind shift, and uh um for me that was that was that was critical.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um it started with my kids, and you know, because they're innocent bystanders, right?
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I love my kids.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: So glad I did that.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they're 25, 23, or 20 today, and I'm super close with with with all of them, and uh we have a close family because of it, and that never would have been the case.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'd have uh I'd I'd I'd have screwed it all up, thinking that you know I knew best because I was always right.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: And it was uh it's you I'm sure heard this before, but uh it's a pretty common saying around recovery is we'd rather be right or sober.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I just again go back to I stopped having opinions on everything and stopped judgment of everything, and stopped needing to be right about everything, and it's not to say those things don't come back, they do.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not perfect.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: I try, but you know, I have judgment, right?
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it exists, but I'm able to understand that it's not good for me and try to get out of it as fast as possible.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, being right is a disease, to be honest.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's uh the need to be right.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever known someone who always has to be right, always has to have the last word?
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they're generally not likable, right?
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: I was not it's not a positive attribute, it's not a positive, right?
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: People don't want to be around you.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like they just know they they quelch their own opinion in in deference to yours because they know that whatever they say, there's going to be an argument.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's just not comfortable.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's completely, it's like it's it's a really it's a tough trait.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: And uh yeah, I just like you could say some wild stuff to me and have that be your opinion, and I'll be like, okay, like, you know, that's that great, you know.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't just don't I just don't need you politics, for example, like I don't need to be in the debate.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_00: I don't need to be in the I just don't need it.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_01: True.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's not it's not um yeah, it's not something I need to be involved in.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_02: I I believe you you save a lot of energy when you just shift the whole thing all together.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_02: You you don't want to be part of the unnecessary conversation, unnecessary debates which which was once running you like crazy before.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, on the same line, um I I teach many people in that scenario only that there are these two identities that every person is running simultaneously.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_02: You know, one is the built version that uh is shaped by conditioning, what got your respect, kept you safe, uh from you know, sounds like the kind of a performer, the deal maker, the person who scaled every bit of it, and the second is the original identity, which I call it the one which we are born with, the the version which existed before anything happened, the one that actually knows what matters within.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_02: That is our intuitive voice, technically, what I call it.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_02: And uh when you describe that family anchor which you describe, and stability it provides a fuel rather than friction, and how how they have become so close to you because of all the different directions and uh the trajectory which you have taken and how you started operating.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, did did you did you feel the difference when you were building from that place compared to how you were building before as a as in kind of a chase perspective?
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_02: So, like what was the feeling like when you associated from this building compared to how you were building before?
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure I've ever thought about that.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's difficult to answer because you know, my family was I you know, I only thought about myself.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it it's always better when you're thinking about others.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just been more uh I guess I would say that this time around, it's been more um rewarding and that it feels shared.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know when you're beaten on your chest about your own accolades, uh it's actually pretty lonely.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like you're starving for attention and you can never get enough.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like I always felt like I never got enough love or respect or like and you couldn't give me enough.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_00: And now I feel an abundance of it.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's been a one-e.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_00: And and you know, I've gone from demanding it and wanting it and needing it to to having it.
• 42:47
  unknown: Yeah.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's a total paradigm shift.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's crazy to think that and a lot of this is looking backwards, and like I said, I haven't really ever thought about it, so this is this is as genuine as it gets.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um a lot of it, I think, is everything I've gotten everything that I was chasing when I stopped chasing it.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_02: True, you know, there's a different kind of feeling associated all together.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I I kind of describe that uh as one of the things that when you're when you're making also something, let's say a startup, a business, anything, uh operating from that identity produces something very different altogether.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you are not in a mindset and always as a calculativeness, you are doing because you want to do it.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_02: You don't think so much of the outcome or anything, you do it because it's a passion, you do it from willingness, you do it from the exact uh thinking of making a change, bringing something, doing something new, and when that whole Whole uh manner changes of performing that the abundance you get, the things which you were always wanting, you know, desperate about or thinking about, you just get it, and that feeling is so so nice to your own self, and the result it replicates out in the market is just different altogether.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_02: And on that note, I want to ask you about inked in specific to this.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_02: I want to spend a few minutes on that.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_02: Where I'm not talking about the metrics, the the DoorDash or Crocs as the client that is impressive and it speaks for itself what you have made so far.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_02: But I want to understand what inked means to you now, not what it produces financially, but what it represents about who you become on the other side of everything we just talked about.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_02: Because I believe that this comes from the law of echo principle in my work that uh what you build always is a reflection of your inner state, a founder running an achievement loop, building something that has been proving itself time and time again, and a founder building from anchor builds something that can actually breathe.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_02: Which one does ink feel like and what it represents to you as a whole?
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_00: Stability.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_00: Not only for me, but for the families that of the people who work here, for the clients that we serve.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know, uh this isn't a scale to scale the scale to sell.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's you know, we're I you know, we're bigger than a mama pop shop, we're not small.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we're definitely a decent sized company and and have some relevance in this category and space.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it's uh it it I've kind of I feel like I've built it as a reflection of who I am, which is authentic, caring.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: We have strong value proposition to do business with us and strong values as a company to do business with.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_00: So um, yeah, it's this is the last business I'll ever be in.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, I really I feel I feel great doing it because it appeals to the things I love the most about business, which is being creative, uh helping people.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, it's it's been a rewarding, it's been it's been personally rewarding for me to uh to to to to grow this.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_02: That that that says so much how you feel towards the brand itself, towards what you have built.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_02: And uh I want to pull something that you had uh I think written on LinkedIn that bad swag is a waste of money, but the right swag builds real connection.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_02: That line is actually about more than the merchandise itself, and there's a version of everything content, relationship, business partnership, even conversation like this one which we are having, uh can be flashy but hollow, but you know it can feel empty also inside.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_02: But there's the there's a version that actually connects, that actually means something to person receiving it.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_02: And uh in the work I do the difference between the two is whether it is coming from a loop or coming from an anchor, from performance or from presence.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think that distinction between the thing that looks impressive and thing that actually connects is what you are building towards with every client?
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_02: And did you know that when you started the inked?
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_00: Had no idea.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh was trying to solve a different problem, which had which was centered around quantity of order and the fact that I had small businesses where I thought people in the space only were interested in larger orders and didn't care about people with small businesses, so I tried to aim my business towards small business.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so that was the original problem we tried to solve.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, um look, every every company is different.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, every promo order is is the purpose of it is different.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I just tend to listen to people and try to find out what they're looking for.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I think um, you know, brand is really hot right now.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a reason people want people want brands, and people want to buy brands, people want to get brands.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_00: So brand name items are are super relevant in in the promo world, and I don't I don't see any slowing of that.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um likely predicated on the growth of social media and the desire for status.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um I try to help clients understand that not everything, you know, like sometimes it's about ROI.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I get the easiest and shortest answer to the question is like tell me what the project is and what the goal is.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what outcome are you looking to achieve?
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_00: And then I can help you with what you know, and sometimes it's gonna be meaningful, and other times it's gonna be a uh chocolate cookie that gets you to stop by my booth in the uh trade show so we can talk about my solution, which is to help.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_00: So the the industry as a whole is all about helping, you know, because the clients want to help their clients.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like you have clients, right?
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, would you rather help them or would you rather not help them?
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, I'll them.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_02: That's the whole context of this.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's the whole context.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_00: So, but that's the context of every business, right?
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like, businesses don't like Amazon doesn't deliver you packages this next day or two days, uh, you know, because I mean they do it to make money, but it's a service, right?
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_00: In the context of service, like you're trying to do good by people, and that's what the promo world is meant to do.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's meant it's meant to help you talk to more people, share your service, and the market will decide whether or not your solution for whatever your business is, uh does that or doesn't do it.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_02: True.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_02: So that that I agree with that totally because uh I in in the recent time, especially I have seen uh many startups or company as a whole who who just purely operate from number.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_02: They might be doing great on the paper, but then in the end or towards the end of the day, they don't have that kind of attachment to what they are doing or the satisfaction either.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_02: And uh that is one of the reasons why I want us to understand what is your relationship with the work and then the client in turn.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I've noticed this, you know, people who are so passionate about actually giving that service out there, they they perform in different metric altogether.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_02: In that I don't I don't uh I don't see the numbers in whole I I feel that number is something different now altogether.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_02: Is the purpose is being achieved for them and that feeling of that itself is so true and so nice for them.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_02: Like you said, you know, this will this will be the last business, I want to continue this forever.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_02: And that that feeling itself says so much more, and I feel that people should associate it with that more rather than just running behind a number game, is what I believe.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't think I mean maybe you can be successful chasing something you don't believe in or have a passion towards, but uh yeah, I mean that's not been my experience.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, look, I I knew a guy who once had a very successful um um I forget what it's called, uh hood hood cleaning service, like restaurants have hoods, and he had to clean those grease traps.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I once said to him, Do you like your business?
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, I he said, I often hate it.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, what do you mean?
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, I clean grease traps for a living, right?
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Well, is it a good business?
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_00: He said, Yeah, it's a it's a great business, but it's terrible work, right?
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I I guess you could be successful in that realm because some things were terrible, but they could still be great businesses.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, I don't I that's not I don't think I could be, but yeah, uh I mostly agree with what you're saying, but those listen, some businesses just aren't great.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_02: True.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_02: And uh I I want to close with something for the personal person listening to everything uh we talked about.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_02: Uh should we put this as a podcast out?
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_02: Is that will be that will you be okay with that?
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, why not?
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_02: Perfect.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_02: I I'll I'll I'll mail you regarding this.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_02: And one last thing, you describe yourself publicly as a loving husband and a father of three.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_02: That is not how most founders lead their identity.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_02: Most founders lead with you know company, the revenue, the clients.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_02: You lead with that anchor.
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_02: Was that a conscious decision, or and what does it say to you about how far you have actually come from the person who was chasing the next hit?
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_02: I would say.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, well, look, I I think it's a baseline for where I'm at.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_00: Just a baseline for who who I am as a person and where and where I am.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's it.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I can't deal with what most founders or this, you know, founder, that founder.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I that's where I'm at.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's my journey.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_00: My journey is uh my journey was really kind of you know like ego driven.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, I try to just plant my ego to the best of my best of my ability.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, and that's a big piece of it.
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_00: So that's to me, that's the yeah, that's the that that's the that's that's where we start everything.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's I mean, look, that's like I said, I live a boring life now, and uh I'm happy to do it.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_02: Definitely.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_02: So, Jay, this this Jay was this was the version of the conversation I hoped it would be, and not just the highlight real kind of a factor, but an honest version, like you told in many moments of the video, that you never thought of it in that manner, but you know that authentic voice of yours came out, and it was so nice to connect.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_02: Well, for everyone listening, if you heard something in Jay's story that felt familiar, the chase, the collapse, the moment where the built version of yourself finally ran out of road, the finding of the anchor, uh, that is not just Jay's story, that is the whole picture of his personal journey, you know, in is in his feeling itself.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, I'll put a link in the bio for his framework, what he does, and his LinkedIn profile, including mine.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_02: And this is the exact kind of route which I teach in uh reset entropy as well.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_02: You can get the link of that also in the bio with specific details.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_02: I will put the VSL funnel as well.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_02: And to go deeper on any of this, there is always the free video of my link attached in the description.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_02: It was really nice connecting with you, Jay, and um especially best of luck for Inked for moving forward in life, and congratulations for finding your so true self and finding that one business you love the most.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, cool, cool concept of the uh conversational show as all and uh really enjoyed connecting.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_00: I really enjoyed connecting with you.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_00: Wish you the best of success as well.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, thank you very much.