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Divine Intimacy Radio - Spiritual Warfare, Wounds and Trauma: How Do I Discern the Difference? · The Quest Atlanta Catholic Radio

• 0:01
  Welcome to Divine Intimacy Radio, a co-production of EWTN Radio and SpiritualDirection.com, where we provide you with a spiritual haven of rest and explore the riches of the wisdom of the saints and the path to union with God.
• 0:22
  This is Dan and Stephanie Burke.
• 0:24
  Welcome to Divine Intimacy Radio, your radio haven of rest, your hermitage of the heart, your monastery of the mind, where we lift our hearts and minds to heaven to draw upon the wisdom of the saints to help us navigate the tumult of this life.
• 0:37
  And today, the tumult we're talking about is how to differentiate between trauma responses.
• 0:44
  genuine spiritual warfare, my spouse's wounds, and this is all in a spousal relationship, but it could apply, of course, to children, relatives, bosses, work, yeah, anything.
• 0:57
  This may be the single best question we've ever received.
• 1:02
  Well, and I, so I'm going to read the question, the full one.
• 1:05
  And I, and I just want to commend the person who asked it because you can tell they're very thoughtful.
• 1:12
  They're engaged.
• 1:13
  They're trying to figure this out.
• 1:14
  So here's the question.
• 1:16
  How can I discern the difference between my spouse's wounds, my own trauma responses, and,
• 1:23
  and genuine spiritual warfare so that I respond with wisdom instead of fear.
• 1:31
  Instead of fear, and I'm having an issue with my screen, so I can't go on.
• 1:36
  So wisdom instead of fear, oh, passivity or control.
• 1:38
  There we go.
• 1:40
  Spirit, passivity, or control?
• 1:41
  Great question.
• 1:42
  So the first response is yes.
• 1:45
  All of the above.
• 1:46
  Right.
• 1:47
  How can I define the difference?
• 1:49
  The answer is you can.
• 1:51
  You can.
• 1:51
  However.
• 1:52
  Or discern the difference.
• 1:53
  Yes, you can.
• 1:55
  However, it's a little bit of everything.
• 1:58
  There's no magic formula.
• 2:00
  And, and it's probably some of all, right.
• 2:03
  Right.
• 2:04
  We know that first of all, we know that the enemy's an opportunist.
• 2:08
  He just, he's just looking for the opportunity to start poking around.
• 2:14
  Um, he looks, he knows us.
• 2:16
  He's watched us since we were young.
• 2:18
  He knows all of our wounds.
• 2:20
  He knows of all of our trauma.
• 2:22
  already, right?
• 2:23
  And your spouses and anybody else, you know, you're with, um, and knowing that he's going to look for opportunities to stir up division, conflict, misunderstanding, offense.
• 2:39
  Um, you know, I was just talking to two really beautiful individuals.
• 2:45
  who both have very similar traumas in their background.
• 2:49
  And boy, the enemy was right up in the middle of them, creating offense, difficulties, confusion.
• 2:56
  You know, it's putting everybody in tears.
• 2:58
  Everybody's feeling culpable and, you know, also blame and shame and, you know, all this stuff getting mixed into it.
• 3:06
  And the thing is, is there's few people in the world that are as beautiful as these two people, you know.
• 3:13
  I love them dearly.
• 3:14
  Deeply devout Catholic.
• 3:15
  Yes.
• 3:15
  Amazing.
• 3:16
  I don't know the details.
• 3:17
  Amazing individuals, right?
• 3:20
  And what does the enemy do?
• 3:21
  He's like, oh, I know how to trigger her and I know how to trigger this person and that person.
• 3:28
  So I'm just going to throw a big old bomb in the middle of it and then watch everybody to devolve.
• 3:34
  And it's interesting.
• 3:35
  I may not know who this is, by the way, but.
• 3:38
  If I do know who it is, they're also on the verge of some very serious decisions about their interior lives spiritually.
• 3:45
  Well, both of them are on the verge of deeper growth, deeper healing, deeper conversion, and extraordinary humans that the Lord really uses in a powerful way.
• 3:56
  And this could be true of a million people that I've served over the years, right?
• 4:03
  It really, that's why I say the enemy's not creative.
• 4:08
  Um, he, he's just there.
• 4:10
  And I think that's, so to first address this is number one, assume that there's some spiritual warfare and we're people of faith and reason, right?
• 4:21
  Yeah.
• 4:21
  Faith and reason.
• 4:22
  Can I, can we pause there?
• 4:24
  You said, assume there's spiritual warfare.
• 4:26
  I just want to deal with an issue in our time related to that.
• 4:30
  And it, and it actually is,
• 4:32
  very disappointing when I see it happen in particularly those who are somewhat devout
• 4:39
  And that is that we, for over a hundred years now, have fallen at the feet of science and worship science.
• 4:47
  Yeah.
• 4:47
  We've fallen at the feet of psychology and worship psychology.
• 4:53
  We have great psychology.
• 4:54
  You know, our daughter-in-law whom we love dearly has got a PhD in psychology.
• 4:58
  So we're not saying there aren't good people in it or good strains in it, but there's never been a saint created by a psychologist.
• 5:08
  Can you say that again?
• 5:09
  There's never been a saint who become a saint because of a psychologist.
• 5:13
  That is an amazing, astute observation, right?
• 5:17
  Right.
• 5:18
  So, so now because of all of that cultural shift away from believing in the supernatural, um,
• 5:28
  We are way under, how'd you say, we're just, and I'm a skeptic, I'll say that too.
• 5:37
  Stephanie would call me a skeptic.
• 5:40
  We way underestimate the presence of the enemy.
• 5:44
  Now, there are certain pockets in Catholicism.
• 5:47
  that way overdo it, but they're very small.
• 5:50
  I mean, we have a great breadth of connection in the church.
• 5:53
  They're very small pockets that overdo it.
• 5:56
  Very few, we're way on the other end of the spectrum of denying it all.
• 5:59
  Right.
• 6:00
  And so the worst kind of, like if you have a spiritual director or Catholic counselor in quotes, and their first response is to brush aside the spiritual warfare part.
• 6:11
  You got a problem.
• 6:12
  You have a problem.
• 6:13
  And I wanna go so far as to say,
• 6:16
  I'd exit that relationship.
• 6:19
  And the reason I'm being so harsh about it is because when folks take that visceral initial response, it reveals a ton about their spirituality.
• 6:30
  And I guarantee you, and I hate to say that I may be wrong.
• 6:33
  So, you know, God forgive me.
• 6:36
  But I would look into their prayer lives.
• 6:38
  I just don't think you're going to find a rich interior life because they're walking purely on their intellect.
• 6:45
  Yes.
• 6:46
  And they're worshiping the modern cults of scientism, the modern cults of psychology.
• 6:54
  Um, so, and so let me just be equally critical.
• 6:59
  If, if, you know, you have friends who everything is a demon, oh, to this demon, it's that demon.
• 7:05
  I mean, we're not advocating for that.
• 7:07
  But what you said is super important.
• 7:09
  And that is the enemy is.
• 7:12
  Always there.
• 7:13
  Always there.
• 7:14
  He prowls around seeking souls to devour.
• 7:18
  We know this.
• 7:19
  Stephanie just quoted God.
• 7:21
  That's from Scripture, right?
• 7:25
  Yeah, he prowls about like a roaring lion seeking whom he can devour.
• 7:32
  Scripture warns us about not going to bed forever.
• 7:35
  Angry.
• 7:36
  Angry or in discord with the other.
• 7:38
  Not letting the enemy take a foothold.
• 7:39
  Because he didn't have a foothold.
• 7:41
  So, Scripture takes it very seriously, constantly saying to discern, test all the spirits.
• 7:47
  Our Lord took this very seriously.
• 7:50
  He sent all the apostles out, the disciples out two by two, to go drive out demons in his name.
• 7:59
  If he didn't think it was important, why would he have bothered him?
• 8:03
  Right.
• 8:04
  Why not leave it out and make it a side issue or whatever?
• 8:07
  It only works over here.
• 8:08
  So back to your point, he's always so.
• 8:12
  And I think this is the key to understanding how to deal with this situation.
• 8:19
  And I'll just be personal about my own life.
• 8:23
  I, I don't care where my struggle is coming from.
• 8:31
  I don't care.
• 8:31
  I have a lot of physiological problems.
• 8:34
  I don't sleep.
• 8:35
  I've got life-threatening illness.
• 8:38
  It seems like every day I'm dealing with medication or injections or something that I have to deal with.
• 8:44
  And I honestly, today, I'm pretty weary of it.
• 8:47
  But God be praised.
• 8:49
  I need the suffering.
• 8:51
  So how do I deal with things when I don't feel well?
• 8:56
  And we can call it physiological desolation or darkness or whatever.
• 9:02
  I don't care to diagnose it precisely.
• 9:07
  I'm not looking for the name of a demon, which we're not supposed to do anyway.
• 9:11
  Specifically, strictly prohibited for lay people to do that.
• 9:15
  But to me, it's all warfare.
• 9:20
  So my disposition is, in the name of Jesus, shut up and get out of bed.
• 9:26
  Get off me.
• 9:27
  In the name of Jesus, shut up and go to the gym.
• 9:31
  In the name of Jesus, shut up and get your stupid medication out again for the thousandth time.
• 9:37
  And in the name of Jesus, stack up another needle on top of a thousand needles that you're sticking in yourself.
• 9:46
  I don't care exactly what the source is.
• 9:49
  And so I think if you try to parse it, that's where you get to a level of discernment that can be had, can be known after a lot of years.
• 10:00
  of learning discernment of spirits, a lot of years of practicing mental prayer, a lot of years of examination of conscience, a lot of years of spiritual growth and maturity.
• 10:09
  But that's, I think, more on this for the spiritual director.
• 10:13
  I mean, everybody should learn discernment of spirits, don't get me wrong.
• 10:17
  But I really think if you treat it that way and say, okay, whatever it is, I don't want it.
• 10:23
  Bad emotional responses, physiological struggles, darkness.
• 10:28
  I don't want it and I don't want it between my spouse and I.
• 10:32
  If you take that initial stance, you cut out a lot of junk that you don't have to worry about.
• 10:40
  Yeah.
• 10:41
  And, and I think what's important is to recognize the desolation, because this is what we're talking about.
• 10:47
  So when things are happening and we're recognizing our own response to it, right.
• 10:53
  Whether it's, you know, so our spouse does something we don't like.
• 10:57
  Okay.
• 10:58
  we're reacting to it and the enemies in the middle of it, we need to recognize that what we're feeling is desolation.
• 11:06
  Right.
• 11:06
  So the cause of it doesn't really matter all that much, which is where you're going.
• 11:11
  Yeah.
• 11:11
  Now, Father Gallagher disagrees and he's a key is a, the scholar of this realm in our time.
• 11:17
  So, you know, he makes good arguments in his book on discernment of spirits.
• 11:21
  So, you know, read that, but I just think practically speaking,
• 11:26
  I do think practically speaking that, that you tackle it, you know, in a similar way, right?
• 11:33
  Like if I have desolation because you've done something that I don't like, and maybe it's triggering my wounds from my, my childhood, I'm going to tackle that desolation so that I can love and serve.
• 11:47
  I don't get to turn in on myself.
• 11:49
  Right.
• 11:51
  and claim victimhood.
• 11:52
  I don't get to collapse under the weight of that desolation and become dysfunctional because the body of Christ is waiting on me.
• 12:02
  The body of Christ is waiting on you to step into who we are called to be, to love, to wash the feet of another, to sacrifice, to love God with all of our heart, mind, body, soul, spirit, all that we are,
• 12:17
  to love him and love others.
• 12:20
  That's what we're called to do, regardless of how we feel.
• 12:24
  Right.
• 12:25
  In essence.
• 12:25
  Right.
• 12:26
  And, and I think one key point, and we can go to this after the break, is that these things that are happening in this couple's marriage are allowed by God.
• 12:38
  It is necessary for both of them for their salvation.
• 12:43
  It's necessary for their salvation.
• 12:45
  Right.
• 12:45
  And when we get back from the break, I want to deal with the universal truth.
• 12:49
  I think I can say a universal truth regarding the invitation that occurs at every moment where we enter into that darkness.
• 12:57
  So we'll be right back.
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  avila-institute.org.
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  Go and sign up for the course.
• 13:49
  This is Dan and Stephanie Burke.
• 13:51
  Welcome back to Divine Intimacy Radio.
• 13:52
  So we're talking about wounds, spiritual warfare, how you discern all of that.
• 13:57
  So the first point we made was
• 14:00
  It's not all that.
• 14:01
  It's not super important that you differentiate between where the initial flare up comes from.
• 14:12
  because of this universe was one universal truth that we, we hold Stephanie and I hold is that the enemy is always involved in an opportunity in these situations.
• 14:22
  That's one.
• 14:22
  The second universal truth is every conflict that we get in is an invitation to healing.
• 14:31
  It's an invitation to go deeper with the Lord.
• 14:34
  So it doesn't matter.
• 14:36
  So if you treat it like that,
• 14:39
  If you treat it and you deal with what you said right before the break, which is I have the spouse I have because I need them for my salvation or the boss I have or whatever.
• 14:48
  We're not talking about abuse.
• 14:49
  That's a different subject.
• 14:50
  We're just talking about the normal junk we deal with.
• 14:53
  I don't like what he's doing.
• 14:55
  I don't like what her is doing.
• 14:56
  It causes me pain.
• 14:58
  Right.
• 14:58
  Whatever that is.
• 14:59
  So if you hold to this universal truth.
• 15:03
  that it's an every time I enter into that darkness, it's an invitation to healing.
• 15:07
  It again, doesn't matter at the source.
• 15:09
  Right.
• 15:10
  Right.
• 15:10
  Right.
• 15:11
  And, and it's, it's, it's not only an invitation to healing it's.
• 15:16
  So I, I go back to the rules of discernment, right?
• 15:19
  So there's two things that we need to keep in mind.
• 15:22
  It's, it's rule nine.
• 15:23
  There's three principal causes of desolation.
• 15:27
  So whatever's happening in that, in that relationship, whatever it is,
• 15:32
  either
• 15:35
  they're slothful in their spiritual practices, disciplines.
• 15:39
  So that's being allowed.
• 15:40
  Yeah.
• 15:41
  They're have grown slack.
• 15:44
  Yeah.
• 15:44
  You know, the Lord's allowing it for some sort of spiritual growth, some, some sort of purification, or they were getting pretty high and mighty in their, in their consolation.
• 15:58
  And he reminds them, Hey, you're not doing this.
• 16:02
  You aren't me.
• 16:02
  You are not me.
• 16:04
  You are not God.
• 16:05
  You are not.
• 16:05
  You're not all that in a bag of chips.
• 16:08
  Go low and be humble.
• 16:10
  Be humble and love and serve your spouse.
• 16:13
  They're not yours to fix, which is really, really key, especially in the case of marriage, in the case of children, in the case of other relations in your family or in your broader community.
• 16:25
  Others are not yours to fix.
• 16:28
  And our Lord famously said, and we seem to forget this quite often, he says, make sure you take care of the plank in your own eye before you go taking out a splinter in your neighbor's eye, right?
• 16:41
  That goes with anyone that's near to us.
• 16:43
  We must always go to a stance of humility.
• 16:46
  Lord, what are you asking of me in this?
• 16:49
  What is the cause?
• 16:50
  Have I kept up my
• 16:54
  Are you asking something more in this situation or am I pretty high and mighty at this point?
• 16:59
  What are you asking of me?
• 17:00
  And then we go to that invitation of healing that you said.
• 17:05
  And there's even something that I think is more, yes, that's very important, but there's even a higher standard there in that in rule 14 of discernment of spirits,
• 17:17
  The enemy goes around and he's looking for weaknesses, for chinks in our armor of vices or virtue deficits that we have.
• 17:27
  And I would add wounds as wounds.
• 17:29
  So it's all tied together where our Lord wants to heal you.
• 17:34
  He wants to strengthen you.
• 17:36
  He wants you to step into the fullness of who you are called to be.
• 17:40
  Maybe that's in humility.
• 17:41
  Maybe that's in patience.
• 17:43
  Maybe that's in great love.
• 17:45
  Maybe that's to to enter into deep hope or deep belief and faith in his mighty power and his healing hand.
• 17:55
  So when we know that, when we start to pay attention to, okay, what is the desolation doing in this relationship?
• 18:04
  Am I triggered to despair?
• 18:06
  Am I triggered to narcissism?
• 18:08
  Am I triggered to anger?
• 18:10
  If I look at the opposite virtue, that's what the invitation is.
• 18:16
  That's what the Lord wants to grow in you.
• 18:19
  He wants to bring it to perfection in you.
• 18:22
  And so we pay attention to that.
• 18:24
  And and we start to work on that.
• 18:26
  We start to act in the opposite manner of what the desolation is doing to us.
• 18:31
  And I think there's one other thing that I, that I want to bring to mind here that I think is super important.
• 18:38
  One of our children who are now adults and, you know, in the church practicing their faith said to me when they were really, really struggling before they got married.
• 18:52
  And, and it was a big struggle, deep desolation, having a lot of struggle.
• 18:56
  Yeah.
• 18:58
  And she started to work on that and seek healing.
• 19:04
  We talked about prayer, very commendable prayer, healing, stepping into like, like what's going on here?
• 19:11
  What is God asking of me?
• 19:12
  What do I need to do here?
• 19:13
  Yeah.
• 19:14
  And she said something so incredibly powerful to me, and I have never forgotten it.
• 19:19
  She said, I have a responsibility to seek the healing and the wholeness I need for the sake of those who will be entrusted to me.
• 19:28
  Mm hmm.
• 19:30
  We need to understand that our life is not about us.
• 19:34
  Our life is not about us.
• 19:36
  So if I cave into that desolation because, oh, his wounds, oh, my past trauma, or his trauma, my wounds, or the enemy, and I fail to step into what God is asking of me, if I fail to study discernment of spirits, if I fail...
• 19:57
  to deny myself for the sake of self-giving.
• 20:00
  If I fail to enter in and run after the Lord with all that I am, the body of Christ suffers because it is missing a part of its body.
• 20:11
  It's like a piece of the foot that's unhealthy and it's causing the rest of the body of Christ pain.
• 20:18
  Go seek and run after all that you need so that you can receive what you need.
• 20:24
  Right.
• 20:27
  I don't do this every show, but I do feel something here today and I want to follow it.
• 20:34
  So this could feel like a commercial, but the funds from the sale of books that we have get donated.
• 20:45
  Yeah.
• 20:47
  It's not, it doesn't enrich us.
• 20:48
  We don't have an increasing bank account.
• 20:50
  We have a decreasing bank account.
• 20:53
  So the reason I write books is to help people and that's my motivation.
• 20:58
  So for you, anyone who's resonating with this, there are two books that are absolutely vital for you to pick up.
• 21:05
  And I would give them an order.
• 21:06
  One is Finding Peace in the Storm by St. Alphonsus Liguri.
• 21:11
  Actually, the book is Uniformity of God's Will underneath.
• 21:14
  That's within this book.
• 21:16
  There's a book within the book.
• 21:17
  Finding Peace in the Storm is by Dan Burke.
• 21:19
  It's by Dan Burke, but it's my spiritual commentary on his wisdom, which is life-changing.
• 21:25
  And if you want to get your head around this idea of God being present in all that's going on in your life and flip that switch from I'm victim, I'm in a rut, I'm never stuck.
• 21:36
  God's present.
• 21:37
  What is he doing?
• 21:38
  How do I follow him out of darkness into joy?
• 21:42
  This these truths have changed my life.
• 21:44
  Stephanie can attest.
• 21:46
  that when she met me, I was mostly in desolation a lot of the time.
• 21:52
  And these truths brought me out of that.
• 21:54
  God be praised.
• 21:55
  The second one is Spiritual Warfare and the Discernment of Spirits.
• 22:00
  And this book, Stephanie's been quoting some of the things from St. Ignatius.
• 22:06
  is, will be transformative as well, because it teaches you how to begin to see and understand, okay, I'm in the situation.
• 22:13
  I'm feeling the desolation.
• 22:14
  Now, what do I do?
• 22:16
  It is life-changing.
• 22:17
  Life-changing, these two.
• 22:19
  And I'd strongly recommend that you take the course, Spiritual Warfare and Discernment of Spirits, from the Avalon Institute.
• 22:25
  And if you don't have time to do that, we have a free video series where there's a specific component that Stephanie teaches on Rule 7 in a filmed retreat that we did that's very high quality.
• 22:39
  You can get that at spiritualdirection.com.
• 22:42
  All of this, you can find everything we do.
• 22:44
  You can find it spiritualdirection.com under the resources area for the video series.
• 22:49
  There's a shop area for all of our books.
• 22:53
  And if you start to study these things and live them, develop a practice of mental prayer.
• 22:57
  If you don't have it, though that question is so insightful, I'd bet they're practicing mental prayer.
• 23:02
  Yeah, yeah.
• 23:04
  You know, can I share with you something that came to mind while you were talking about finding peace in the storm?
• 23:10
  Yeah.
• 23:10
  Yeah.
• 23:11
  So when we think about Peter in the boat, right, and he sees the Lord.
• 23:18
  So he starts to recognize that the Lord's there and he steps out on the water and he starts to walk towards him.
• 23:25
  When he started looking at the waves, he sank, right?
• 23:28
  Yeah.
• 23:29
  Every time he kept his eyes on the Lord, he was able to stay afloat, as it were, and to follow the Lord and to make it to him.
• 23:37
  But as soon as he looked at the storm, he wasn't able to.
• 23:40
  And it just occurred to me, with this kind of knowledge, if you read these books, if you employ them into your life,
• 23:49
  if you're living a sacramentally sound life, living, living a sacramentally sound life, what will happen is you will shift from getting pummeled by all the waves to learning to ride the waves.
• 24:04
  Oh, that's an interesting idea.
• 24:06
  Riding the waves towards where God is calling you.
• 24:09
  And that is a whole different way of looking and understanding the storms that come around.
• 24:15
  I love that.
• 24:15
  Because they get transformed from something that's destructive, that's tearing us down.
• 24:20
  Something.
• 24:21
  To the means through which our Lord, if we will appropriate it and trust him.
• 24:27
  and follow him, he will use it to bring us to perfection.
• 24:31
  He will use it to purify us, strengthen us, transform us, bring us to union with him, which is the ultimate goal that we desire.
• 24:41
  So we want to learn through these disciplines and through his grace and learning how to appropriate his grace, to learn how to ride those waves to union with him.
• 24:54
  Amen.
• 24:55
  Yeah.
• 24:56
  I think the, the only other thing that I'd recommend is if you don't have a, a, a daily practice of mental prayer, it's really important you develop it because one of the things you're seeking, the person who asked this question about wounds and whatever is self knowledge, like what's going on with me and with daily mental prayer, spending time with Jesus, wasting time with Jesus, you're,
• 25:21
  In the Gospels, you will learn who you are in a way you could never do in any kind of counseling or any kind of personality tests or anything.
• 25:32
  You'll understand yourself better and you'll get a better sense of how to fight the battle now.
• 25:37
  All that said, I just want to modify a little bit or bring a sharper point.
• 25:42
  We are not saying in all of this that there are not times when we need to identify specific reasons, you know, patterns of behavior and destructive things are showing up.
• 25:54
  What we're what we're trying to advocate for is a spiritual foundation that will make it all improve.
• 26:01
  Not perfect.
• 26:02
  It'll all improve as you do that.
• 26:06
  you may find there are specific wounds that you have never dealt with in a way that can bring you that can break you out of the habit of responding destructively.
• 26:16
  And I guess we're running out of time.
• 26:18
  Well, and I'll add to that.
• 26:19
  Listen, if this is moving you and especially if you're married or you have children that are married,
• 26:25
  Check out our events page on spiritualdirection.com.
• 26:29
  Next year alone, we have seven retreats on divine intimacy and marriage, Ascent to Oneness, where we deal a ton with this.
• 26:38
  We also have a book being released in the fall of 2026.
• 26:43
  So check all that out at spiritualdirection.com.
• 26:47
  So until next time, may the God of peace make you perfect in holiness.
• 26:52
  May he preserve you whole and entire, spirit, soul, and body, irreproachable at the coming of our Lord, Jesus Christ.
• 27:00
  Amen.
• 27:11
  Learn more about the interior life.
• 27:13
  Visit SpiritualDirection.com.
• 27:16
  Divine Intimacy Radio is a co-production of EWTN Radio and SpiritualDirection.com and heard worldwide on the EWTN Global Catholic Radio Network.