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Multi-Agency Incident Audio And Blue Card Rundown · B Shifter

• 0:42
  SPEAKER_05: Welcome to the Beat Shifter Podcast.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_05: John Vance and Josh Bloom with you here today.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_05: We're going to get into some incident audio from a suburban department that responds with multiple different agencies.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_05: So we'll give you some examples of what that sounds like with Blue Card coming up.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_05: So stand by for incident audio.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_05: How are you doing today, Josh?
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_05: I'm doing great.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_04: Had a good opening weekend for football.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_04: A little time in Alabama with the my adult kids and the wife and dog, and went to the game and hung out for a short until halftime.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_04: Then it was, I think it was 115 degrees or something.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_04: I was like, okay, I this is I've seen enough of this.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_04: Time to go.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_04: I was I think I'd if I would have had 20 shirts, I would have sweated through all 20 of them.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_04: There's no doubt about that.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_04: But how'd your team do?
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_04: How'd your team do?
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_04: It was good, yeah.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_04: Oh yeah.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_04: All right.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, they weren't playing like a lot of the games, opening weekend, right?
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_04: The for some teams anyway, not good place to get started, but I don't know, I got different views of that.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_04: You win they're getting their legs under them, so to speak.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_04: You win one game and then you think you're gonna win them all, and you can't go in there with that mindset, right?
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_04: Like, yeah, gotta go in.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_04: Always go into it like you're like you're losing, down, down.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_05: It's kind of like our job, right?
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_05: Like you don't don't go in overconfident or you're gonna get burned by that every time.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_05: Or or as you always say, don't be stupid.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_05: Don't be stupid, don't be stupid.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, it was a good weekend here.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_05: Had had labor day.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_05: My my kid was in town, he he was doing some camping and fishing, so got to hang out with him for a while and tried to get one last boating weekend in before things start to wind down here in Minnesota, but the uh weather did not cooperate with me.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_05: But I am looking forward to next week.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_05: So you can see I haven't even shaved yet, but getting back on the road, going to Calisbell, Montana.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_05: They're doing a train the trainer there next week, and then kind of hit a string of a bunch of classes on the road that I'm looking forward to.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_05: We're gonna be going to Cincinnati, Ohio, Honolulu, Hawaii, out to Phoenix for both a train the trainer and a big box workshop.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_05: We still have that big box workshop with the seats left October 19th and 20th in Phoenix.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_05: So you can go to the B Shifter website and look those up.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_05: Well, we have a bunch of other classes coming up too.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_05: And you know, you always say we're in command function seven all the time.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_05: There's a couple of these workshops that we just try to perfect them.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_05: We know they're never going to be a hundred percent perfect, but we continue to turn the screws and make them better every time.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_05: I know the division ops, you're gonna be doing one of those in uh Hamilton County, Ohio, and there's been some tweaks to that one, right?
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_05: What have we done to improve that workshop?
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so the division ops started out really with a focus on you know, mostly just division ops, and we had built, you know, the front end of it.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_04: So, you know, how do you get to the point of of assigning a division and then you know, why do you do it, how do you do it?
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_04: When, why, all of those parts and pieces of it.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_04: But we we really made the division ops calling it expanded command and division ops, because we're we're gonna hit everything from IC one, IC2, division bosses, support officers, senior advisor, the support officer, you know, safety role, you know, for for the IC, as well as the support officer safety role when they're assigned to be the support officer for a division boss.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_04: Like what does that look like?
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_04: So getting through all of those parts and pieces and objectives, and how do you work together and what does that really look like?
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_04: And then we put a few pieces into there for the organizations, well, for the 95% of the U.S.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_04: fire service that you know runs with, relies on and runs with mutual aid.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_04: So, what does it look like when you're building out that command team, if you will, with mutual aid partners?
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_04: And that really just comes down to you all got to be on the same page, right?
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_04: So, no different than your organization.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_04: If you're running together to emergency incidents with your with your neighbors, then you need to operate as one.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_04: And when I say operate as one, you know, so many of those things we go through in the Mayday workshop of standardizing equipment, standardizing training, standardizing field operations, standardizing all of those things, right?
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_04: So it's just not what you do with your fire department.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_04: But if you're running mutual aid with people, you have to all be on the same page.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_04: This isn't the well, we're in command and you show up and the people don't understand the system.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_04: That doesn't work.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_04: So it's important that we that we have that that collaboration and then that we are on the same page when it comes to all of our operations, and there's that it just leaves out the confusion.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_04: And really we all we all end up helping each other, then, right?
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_04: So there's no issue if the neighboring chief for the day, battalion chief, district chief, whatever, shows up in somebody else's community and runs the fire because everybody is on the same page, following the same procedures, has had the same training, using the same after action reporting system.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_04: And then everybody's talking about that.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_04: Because if we're if we're gonna operate as one team, then we have to train as one team.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_04: And and traditionally we haven't been very good at that.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_04: We we we would run with other folks in the past, but we didn't do a great job, I think, crossing borders often enough to train and get everybody on the same page.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_04: I remember when I was first getting started, they thought they thought it was great doing uh mutual aid training because we went and looked at each other's trucks and it's like, well, that there's value in that, but there's a whole lot more to operating on the fire ground than looking at somebody's, you know, fire truck or or what kind of equipment that they have.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_04: And that just brings up another piece of the standardizing equipment when it comes to, you know, our air packs and communication system is is, I think, a critical important thing.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_04: You know, far too often I gotta buy the next best, greatest thing, and I buy the latest, greatest air pack, and it's different than all of my neighbors' air packs.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_04: And yes, I'm wearing it and I know how to use it and breathe out of it, but if I need somebody to give me air and it's not like the one that your neighbor wears that they train on, then that it's just another challenge, I guess we could say, of if we're gonna operate together, we should be doing most all things together.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_04: And it should look, it should look like one organization, really.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, they're so easy to get siloed because the day-to-day we're isolated, right?
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_05: We're by ourselves as departments.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_05: But when we have an incident, even a house fire in most of our communities, at least around here, you are depending on your mutual aid neighbors.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_05: And that's why being on the same page and having that communication, and I think it's the hardest thing for chiefs a lot of times to even hold each other accountable.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_05: Like, hey, we said we were going to do it this way.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_05: Why aren't we doing it this way?
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_05: I know that has always led to some communication issues.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_05: And when I say communications, I mean just how the departments are pre-planning and talking to each other before the incident.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_05: I use the example all the time.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_05: We called for a command van from a mutual aid partner that we relied on heavily for their command van and it showed up with no radios in it.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_05: And it's because they decided to make a change, but they didn't tell any of the mutual aid partners.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_05: So it was a complete surprise to us.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_05: So having that communication, none of us, none of us, for the most part, can afford to be in a silo.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_05: Even 11 station fire departments we were talking before we started recording.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_05: My old neck of the woods had a big fire last night, and they needed mutual aid to continue to run the rest of the city while the fire department was on a big defensive fire.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_05: So everybody needs somebody at some point.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_05: You know, here we are the the week, and and we should acknowledge this too the uh 25th anniversary of 9-11.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_05: You know, the New York Fire Department, FDNY, very rarely reached out for mutual, but even an incident like that, you know, is gonna require a lot of help.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_05: So don't wait until the big one.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_05: Get those, get that, that, get that communication out.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_05: I know that happened in Chicago, the LaSalle Bank fire.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_05: They ended up calling in at least 10 mutual aid departments into the city of Chicago for the first time in a long time, even though they're very well organized with their Mavis division.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_05: But they needed help when they had a major fire in a high rise that was unsprinklered, by the way.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_05: So we all we all need each other at some point.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_05: So let's get those conversations and more importantly, the training done ahead of time.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_05: So we are all singing from the same sheet of music.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_04: Well, it goes back to it goes back to the I don't know how far it goes back, 1980s or whenever.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know, I don't know what the time frame is, but it's been a long time that that Maricopa County Phoenix metro area.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, if there's a fire on the Phoenix-Glendale border, you're gonna have at a minimum Phoenix and Glendale there.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_04: And I don't know how many incidents that you know those those organizations go to that where they operate by themselves when it comes to structure fires, but it's it's not very many incidents that they would go to where they end up by themselves, unless they're you know, dead center in of a city or whatever.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_04: But even then, the availability of mutual aid chiefs or the shift commander or the command van or whatever it is.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, from the you know, suburbia 101 station fire departments in a county to the five large cities that all touch each other and also run together.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_04: Because again, like you said, John, you none of us can do this by ourselves.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_04: And and and and the whole big picture is delivering service to Mrs.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_04: Smith, right?
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_04: So it's like if there's an incident on your border and there's somebody else closer, why aren't we not calling them?
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_04: And I always do say the closest, most appropriate, because I'm not calling, I'm not gonna use a company that's not gonna show up in a good period of time.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm also not gonna call a company who can't do what they need to do because they refuse to be on, you know, the same page as everybody else when it comes to training their personnel or their limitations or capabilities, or for that matter, that they just arrive and go rogue.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, uh, but we should be calling the closest, most appropriate units to the incident because it's about providing service to Mrs.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_04: Smith.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_04: It has nothing to do with anything else.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_05: There was a department locally here that would routinely go rogue on incidents.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_05: They they refused to stage, they would just get off the rig and start doing whatever they wanted to do uh without any accountability.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_05: And finally, everyone cut them off their box cards.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_05: It's like we we're we're not doing this with you anymore.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_05: Fast forward five years later, they're back on everyone's box cards, they're training the same way everyone is, they've made a ton of progress.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_05: It took some leadership changes, and those leaders were also poor leaders to begin with, so there were some other issues internally, but it takes a while to turn that ship.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_05: Like you're saying, you you once in a while, as a chief or as a department, have to say, Well, we're not going to use you because it's the fire ground is unsafe when you get there, or you're doing things to make the incident worse.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_05: Years ago, we had a mutual aid partner that first thing they would do is show up, and if there were still windows in the building, they'd knock every window out.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_05: It's like we're not doing that anymore.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_05: So either stop doing it, get an assignment, or don't arrive at all.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_05: So I think that's a great thing for these division operations and escalated command workshops.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_05: So that's going to be October 13th and 14th in Hamilton County.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_05: Yep.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_05: That sounds good.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_05: So that all of those are on our events page if you want to uh sign up for any of them.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_05: And then the strategic decision making class is another one that's been tweaked a little bit.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_05: They continue to uh perfect that one.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, every time they deliver that, it gets refined, I think, a little bit further based on feedback from you know the end user.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_04: And sometimes, you know, where where we're delivering it, we we try to reach out to host agencies and talk to like where where are your challenges?
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_04: Where do you think the holes are in the system?
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_04: What do you want the focus to be based on that subject matter, you know, specifically, so that we when when we leave there, that we've helped them along the path of what they're trying to do in their organization with the system.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_04: So we're actually going to be in Worcester, Massachusetts two different times coming up, and I think there's eight or maybe ten seats open in each one of those, September 29th and 30th, and then October 1st and 2nd for the SDM class in Worcester.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_04: And then while I'm talking about them in January, and I don't know the dates off the top of my head, but it's posted on our website.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_04: There's gonna, I think there's eight or ten open seats in both of the Mayday workshops that we're gonna be doing at the Worcester Fire Department in Massachusetts in January.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_04: So I just bring that up because there's not a ton of opportunities to get into workshops because oftentimes organizations take all the seats themselves.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_04: So anytime we have open seats in workshops, we we try to push that out.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_04: And then on the whole Mayday workshop topic, Berkeley, California will be there coming up with the city of Berkeley.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_04: And then we have some of their neighbors and the people in the county that are also coming to that.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_04: And I think there's maybe, I think there's 10 seats, maybe 15 seats left in that Mayday workshop in California.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_04: So we we have some seats available, but for the most part, our stuff is is filling up or is full.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_04: So our train the trainers in Phoenix, October's full.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_04: I think November has one seat, and December, I think has four seats.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_04: And other than that, we have our classes posted for January, February, March, and Phoenix of next year.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_04: So there's not a ton of opportunity for the remainder of the year, you know, for classes that we have booked.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_04: If you are looking to do something between now and the end of the year, we do have some availability.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_04: So if you want to do something, reach out to me and we'll we'll take a look and try to line our calendars up and see if we can get a class to you and your region if you were looking to do something before January.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_05: Reach out to Josh, josh at b shifter.com if you'd like to inquire about hosting one of those classes at your department.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_05: I know the the boss was pretty excited the other day.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_05: We've sold one pallet of books so far.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_05: So one pallet of books out the door of the new fire command third edition.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_05: Uh that's that's been a big deal.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_05: They've they they are hitting the libraries at firehouses across the country, so that's pretty cool.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_05: And this uh last week we rolled out discount, it's an indefinite discount, so it's not a limited time, it's just a bulk discount.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_05: If anybody is looking to get fire command third edition for numerous firehouses within your jurisdiction, you can get them for 20% off.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_05: So that's a savings of$420 per case.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_05: There's 14 books in a case, so all you have to do is call our office and you can go to bshifter.com, it's the phone number on the bottom.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_05: Call our office to do that.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_05: You can't order those through the store if you want the bulk discount.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_05: You have to call us, and we'll even bill you for those as well, so you don't have to necessarily put them on a credit card.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_05: So if you're doing it through a PO or something like that, you can call and talk to Jennifer and she'll take care of you.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_05: But looks like the the Fire Command Third Edition.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_05: I know we've had a few people review it and really given it some nice reviews.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I think until it's out there, when we all reviewed it, right?
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_04: It's it's it's us.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_04: So, like, what do you overlook or what do you read past or you know, whatever?
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_04: And then yeah, I'm super excited about the reviews that we've gotten from you know, folks out there, some of them that pay a whole lot of attention to fine detail, I guess you could say.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_04: And then some of them that are, you know, given in a comparison to like what is this, how does this really line up?
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_04: Is this does this line up to what they really say?
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_04: And does it line up to you know best practice and standards and all of that?
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_04: And when you don't get any real feedback from, you know, these folks that have gone through it with the with the fine-tooth comb.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_04: And I don't want to say we're looking for an issue, but looking to just see, you know, what it says and is it does it all does it all really align?
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_04: And and then kind of guys going through it of what does the next version of the new online program look like, you know, lining up all of those pieces.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I was super excited about it.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_04: You know, we had a we had some people ask some questions, like I'm just clarifying that what how I'm reading this is what this really means.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_04: But other than that, it's you know all been positive.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_04: And then I've heard a lot of folks talking about the positive feedback on the two new chapters, not functions of command, but just the two new chapters that are in there, you know, the biggest thing being the you know, mayday management.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_04: So Mayday prevention, mayday management, and then after the Mayday, like how do we deal with that?
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_04: And you know, the interesting thing is it all points back to the you have to have a system, and then then that all you know lines out.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, it's all going well.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_05: Good.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_05: Well, you want to hop into this audio?
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, sure.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_05: All right.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_05: What what do you know about this?
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_05: What can you tell us about it before we start to listen?
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_05: Then we'll come back and offer some comments.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_04: So this is another clip from the Colrain Township Fire Department in Hamilton County, Ohio.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_04: So they're they've been engaged with fire command since the 80s.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_04: They're what they're uh one of their chiefs, Bruce Smith, early, early on, was a big chief Brunicini follower and would go to all the command symposium stuff in Phoenix and would bring a lot of stuff back.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_04: And we know that that gets twisted because there's no standard training system, right?
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_04: So you you you tell one person, they tell the next person, they tell the next person, and something comes out, but it's not you know ideal.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_04: But either way, we've had Colrain stuff on here many a times, and uh, I do a lot of work with this organization.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_04: They they had the line of duty death with Cap Captain Brocksterman and Shira.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_04: And right after that, they jumped in.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_04: Chief Walsh jumped in the blue card, you know, kind of both feet and said, Oh no, we're doing we are we are doing this.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_04: And there were standard SOPs, and there were people who are familiar with fire command, and you know, that that's part of the promotional process, and they've you know done you know old school simulation stuff.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_04: But many years ago now, they they jumped in the blue card and and and it's full tilt, and then they hold people accountable because they do the after action reporting system.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_04: And when I when we talk about accountability, it doesn't mean anybody gets in trouble.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_04: It's the accountability part of, hey, you did really good there.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_04: That's that's still accountability, right?
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_04: We're just verifying that you're doing what we want you to do.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_04: And then there's the other piece of let's talk about this because we need to do better.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_04: And then sharing it across the entire organization is is, I think, a critical piece because only the people who were at the fire were at the fire.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_04: And this, I think, helps other people learn and we reinforce things that went well, and then we can have a discussion of hey, we're not we're we're not doing this again, or we're not gonna do it like that again.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_04: And and and then we have an opportunity to talk about why, and everybody can learn from from those incidents.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_04: So I think Col Rain, right?
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_04: I think right now it's about 220 some personnel, five stations.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_04: They do not make a structure fire that they do not get mutual aid from multiple departments.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_04: They definitely do the you know, dropped border closest units in Hamilton County.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_04: Everybody's got AVL, so I mean it's gonna send the closest units that are available anyway.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_04: And that includes chiefs.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_04: So they got they have a district chief on duty, but on any working fire, they get a minimum of three chiefs to respond on the first alarm.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_04: And so the one chief, if available, is from Colering Township, and the other two are coming from mutual aid.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_04: And as you go, as we go through this, it's not a big long drawn-out incident.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_04: It gets solved very quickly, but you can hear that it's organized and that everybody is on the same page.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_04: And just like some of the other podcasts we've done, and I'll just go back to it, the chicken plant fire in Fairfield, which is on Colrain's, you know, kind of on our north border, but in a different county.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_04: That fire was run, you know, from the beginning all the way to the end by a mutual aid chief.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_04: Now they had that mutual aid chief had support from the people from the city of Fairfield, where the fire was, but they ran it and they were able to run it because everybody is on the same page with SOPs, expectations, training, any work and fire gets an after-action report.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_04: Everybody talks about it, and and we all learn from it so that we truly operate as much as possible as we can as one agency or one team going to solve the problem.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_04: And I'd be lying if I said we didn't have work to do because we all have work to do and we all, you know, our organizations continue to grow and people retire and people have to be replaced.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_04: So it's a never-ending cycle of of training people and keeping people on the same page, but you have to start somewhere.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: Area 25, structure fire residential, district twenty-five, district fifty-three, district seventy-nine, engine one oh two, engine one oh three, engine one oh nine, engine twenty-six, engine fifty-five, ladder twenty-five, ladder forty-two, six.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: Medic twenty sixth.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: Medic fifty five.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: Rescue twenty six.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: On higher ground four.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: Forty thirty four Eddie Stone Drive.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: Cross of Wood Song Drive and Yellowwood Drive.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: Forty thirty-four Eddy Stone Drive.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: On higher ground four.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_03: All oncoming units are fire twenty-five.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_03: We do have a header spring now.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_03: Engine one or three on C.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_03: We got a medium two-store residential structure.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_03: We got a working fire.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_03: We got a heavy smoke shown from the backyard.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_03: Charlie's in the offensive strategy.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_03: Stretching engine three-quarter airline for fire attack, search and rescue.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_03: We do have a water supply.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_03: Engine 103.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_03: Engine 103, we'll have Eddie Stone drive.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_03: Engine 26, level one.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_03: Engine 26, grab a secondary water supply, pull backup line off engine 103.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_03: I'll be out in 1360.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_03: On second water.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_03: I'll use it for command.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_03: Looks like the majority of the fires on the exterior.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_03: We need to get crews on the interior.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_03: We do have a basement.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_03: We got small glass block windows.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_03: Unknown extension into the basement at this time.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_03: Engine 103 on side alpha.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: Commands from District 25.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_03: Go ahead, District.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: I got you with a working fire offensive strategy on the Charlie side.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_02: Mostly exterior.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_02: We do have a basement, probably not involved.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_02: Engine 26 is going alpha side with a backup line.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: Check the interior.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_02: Ladder 25.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_02: It's gonna be doing search.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_02: And looks like I got 102 on deck.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_02: That's correct.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_02: Give me a can, I'll take a minute.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_03: All assignments are correct.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_03: We got water on the fire on the Charlie side.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_03: Fire is under control from the exterior.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_02: Copy water on the fire.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_02: On the exterior, crews entering.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_02: Offensive strategy accountability at Engine 103.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_02: Engine 55.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_02: Engine 102 for command.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_02: Engine 55.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_02: You guys can stay level one.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: Copy no patients, and value.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_02: All three four copies all queer rescue, all queer all three floors.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_02: No need to connect one oh nine level one, stay someplace where you can get out of here.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: Engine one oh three from command.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_02: We get to back this down and cut some people loose.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, some good again, that is condensed.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_05: We always want to remind everybody that you know it didn't happen that fast.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_05: But one of the things I think to talk about, Josh, because people who don't understand blue card think that companies are staging when there's work to be done.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_05: This is a great example of the work to be done got immediately assigned.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_05: You know, Bruno used to talk about the zero impact period, and that's really from the time the fire's discovered until we arrive.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_05: And then once we arrive, we have to start making a difference on the scene and have an impact.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_05: So there's no zero impact period once the fire department is there.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_05: And I think this clip really shows that because these guys took immediate action.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_05: But go ahead with your thoughts on this.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_05: I think it's some great audio.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so that the that first due company, you know, again, a lot of people say, well, they're they're just talking on the radio, they're doing nothing, whatever.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_04: Well, in this case, the that first due company gets there.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, the company officer gave an excellent size up, painted a really good picture for everybody who's coming into the incident, was working on a 360.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_04: And while that was going on, the personnel on the apparatus were stretching a hand line.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_04: There was nobody sitting there waiting, sitting on their hand saying, okay, uh when I get done, I'll come back and tell you what to do next or what I want you to do.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_04: And it's like, no, they're when you're going down the street as the company, you know, you kind of have a plan together.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_04: And then as the company officer's getting off the truck, they're giving that information to the rest of the personnel on that apparatus of this is what I want you to do.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_04: And then there's some face-to-face communications going on.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_04: So, you know, as soon as they pull the brake and they stretch a handline, it's gonna, it's starting to get better, right?
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_04: We're we're we're making we're making it better.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_04: That's what they called us for is to make it better, solve their problems.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_04: So, yeah, the first dude company, excellent size up, good follow-up report.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_04: Engine 26 goes level one, and you know, we we talk about size up plus three a lot, and clearly, here's an example of the company officer gave assignments to to several companies before the chief got there.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_04: And, you know, people say, Oh, it's too much.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_04: Company officers can't do it, that whatever.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_04: And it's like, well, I don't know how many thousands of clips from you know, house fires to apartment fires to fires with victims to strategic shifts to gas explosions that we need to review and listen to to hear, no, every it's it's because everybody's on the same page, it's because everybody's trained in the same system, and that we're working to solve the problem.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_04: So we're not taking action on stuff just because that's just what we do.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_04: We're taking action for things that make sense to solve the problem because they saw they called us for the problem.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_04: They didn't call us to create a bigger problem for them, which oftentimes happens when you know we take that rogue.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_04: I just do what I do when I get here because I think it's cool, or somebody taught me that, you know, at some class last weekend.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_04: And it's like, no, we we have all of these skills and we only use the ones that we need to use to work through and solve the problem.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_04: So in this case, 26 is, you know, staged on a hydrant, sent their personnel forward because the first dew company already had a water supply, stretched a backup line, and they went through the the alpha side checking for extension.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_04: And when they got that, the first dew company had already said that it does not appear the fires in the basement.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_04: They talked about the small block windows and verified, hey, we have fire in the exterior that they're gonna be, you know, knocking down before they go in, which we we maybe should throw the link in there from Dan's podcast on you can't put a fire on the outside of the building out on from the inside the building, right?
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_04: So fires that start outside go inside.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_04: And we we need to start on those types of fires, we need to put that fire out outside, or it's gonna be a bigger issue for us.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_04: And we have we have tons of cases where there's examples of that, right?
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_04: That we get caught off guard because we go past the fire that was on the outside, and then we wonder why it ends up being everywhere around us because it ran straight into the void space.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, all of the front end good.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_04: And because they worked with the priority of putting water on the fire to solve that problem, yeah, the fire went out, you know, went out very quickly.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_04: And let me just back up for a second.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_04: So in this incident, it was in Col Rain Township, and uh four mutual aid fire departments responded with with different assets, whether it was Flatter 42, the district chiefs, the medic unit, or an engine.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_04: So I mean they they had multiple uh agencies on responding on this that were not Col Rain Township units, but everybody operates like their trucks has Colored Township on it.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_05: During the incident, I think it was right after the command transfer before dispatch got on and said you now have a dedicated dispatcher.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_05: What does that mean in that system?
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so for well, as long as the Hamilton County dispatches existed, there was you were not going to get a dedicated dispatcher.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_04: And a lot of it was, you know, they would ask, but not the chiefs would ask, maybe, but not uh push it hard enough.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_04: And now with the director at the dispatch center now and with the dispatchers going through the blue card training and with the with the chiefs communications working group that that meets with and talks about hey, how do how does dispatch better?
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_04: How does dispatch support the fire department?
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_04: How does the fire department support dispatch?
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_04: We're working towards having dedicated dispatchers on the TAC channel.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_04: So any working fire in the county gets a dedicated dispatcher and they just key up and say, hey, we're we're now on the channel.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_04: Oftentimes it's while you're in route, you have a day dedicated dispatcher.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_04: Depending on what's going on, just like the fire department, depends on how fast you get a dedicated dispatcher.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, if there's a bunch of stuff already going on somewhere else and there's nobody to fill that role, then they're not gonna say that you have a dedicated dispatcher, though they're working towards that.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_04: But I don't know how deep of a bench you need to go to make sure that no matter what, you have a dedicated dispatcher when there's a single dispatch center in the whole county, and you know, you could have multiple working incidents going at the same time.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I know a lot of blue card departments are working toward that.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_05: Probably at least half don't get a dedicated dispatcher, probably more than that.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_05: Heck, we've talked to departments out there that have to pick up their cell phone and literally call 911 to get dispatch back, you know, because that dispatch isn't even monitoring the the main traffic on the main channel.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_05: So uh, you know, that just something to work for.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_05: Hey, the other thing I wanted to talk about on this one is is level one staging, because I think again, that gets I the the the IC did a great job at covering the bases and going three deep because he had companies on deck on the alpha side, the Charlie side.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_05: And then once he had all his bases covered, then he started level one in companies with a little bit of a caveat too, like, hey, we're gonna get you out of here pretty quick.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_05: But he wanted to keep his three deep as long as he had somewhat of a working incident.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_05: Is that correct?
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so the the chief that was in District 25 that day is a very senior, tenured guy.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_04: He's a blue card instructor, he's engaged with the system.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_04: So that's I think that's that balance where you get the yes, they have all the training and they've we've taught them to make decisions and all of that, but that's just another layer of the oftentimes cool ICs or have that experience, right?
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_04: Or they've learned from other people who have the experience of how do you apply the system.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, so the there was companies working outside, there was a company in the basement.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_04: They had the company had come back and said, we have an all-clear for search on all three floors, and there's no extension inside.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, the IC was leaving companies level one staged in case a transmission came up where they needed something.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_04: But they were covered, you know, and ready to deploy a company right now because he had on deck on the alpha and the Charlie side.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_04: So there were there were plenty of resources that could be deployed immediately for whatever instance.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_04: If a company queued up and said, Hey, we have extension on the second floor, we need a company, or the company queued up and said, We have a victim, you have somebody to send.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_04: Or if a company queued up and said, We have a Mayday, you you have you know a resource that you could put to work, you know, immediately, while those other companies were were level one.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_04: And then engine 109 went level one and command said, Hey, just uh stay level one for now and just so you can get out of here because that's that plan A, B, C, D, E, F, G.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, how far, however far you want to go, right?
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_04: This thing was de-escalating at this point, and there were they he did not need another resource to do any work in the hot or warm zone.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_04: So he was just leaving them be.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_04: No different than the district chief.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_04: District 79 went level one and he said, Hey, just just stand by just for a second.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_04: And that was the let's make sure that we indeed have all clears, that nothing else comes up here, and then you know, we're gonna start cutting people loose.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_04: And I think like anything, what you do all the time is what you do all the time.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm sure some people are gonna say, Well, yeah, this was nothing.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_04: This was a nothing fire, it was outside, whatever.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_04: But this fire, not managed properly, or the proper action, could have turned into a defensive fire in, you know, a rather short period of time potentially when it got into the void space and ran into the attic, if if that happened.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_04: So we deploy companies to solve the problem.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_04: We don't we don't deploy companies just because of what they arrived on or what they're what they're capable of.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_04: Where they're the fixed the problem.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_04: And when the problem is fixed, then we don't need to keep deploying companies, obviously.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_05: Yes.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_05: And I was working with a fire department the summer, and they had a bad habit of wanting to assign every company that was in level one staging somewhere, even if they weren't needed.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_05: So they'd have nobody in level one staging, but they'd have really too many companies in the divisions, which became a bigger headache to manage for those division bosses.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_05: So if we were gonna establish a division, what what's what's the sweet spot as far as ratio and what do you want to see in level one stag while we have companies assigned into divisions?
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_05: What's a good par level, do you think?
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_04: If we're gonna assign a division, then there's we've identified that there's probably ongoing work.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_04: We probably have two or three or more companies assigned to a geographic area where there's gonna be ongoing work.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_04: It's not on the it's probably not on the window.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_04: It's probably this thing's still escalating, and there's there's probably more work to do than one air bottle cycle, likely, if we're gonna be putting a division into place.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_04: So, you know, to go back to the division ops class, so we talk about in division ops class two deep deployment.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_04: As a division boss, you your mindset is the two deep deployment.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_04: So you have people inside the hot zone.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_04: And if on this incident, if it escalated and I got assigned to Charlie, for example, I would want companies obviously that are in the on the Charlie side, engine 103 that was on the Charlie side, and then engine 55 was on deck.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_04: That's my two deep deployment.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_04: If I send engine 55 in, or I think I'm gonna send them inside as a division boss, I would call command and say, send me another on-deck company, or send me two on-deck companies, depending on what I'm forecasting the work that needs to take place.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_04: And then it's the strategic IC's job to make sure that they maintain their resources in level one staging or level two staging to keep pace with the incident.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_04: So that comes back again to everybody being on the same page and and communicating what we're what we're accomplishing, and then communicating also what we're having a challenge accomplishing so that that strategic IC can forecast in the bigger picture of okay, do I need more resources or or or or do I not?
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_04: So if the incident's escalating, we we want to make sure that we have people in level one staging.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_05: And and once we don't need them, we can cut them loose.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_05: I think one of the things, too, about not getting people out of the trucks or engaged in the incident if you don't need them, that's less decon, and then that's a fresh crew to go to that next incident if something else does pop up too.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_05: I know that there's a lot of areas that are probably a little more adverse to doing change of quarters.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_05: And in those areas, you could just pretty much level one staging is also change of quarters.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, if if there's another incident within that community and you don't need them on that incident, you can deploy them out from level one staging to whatever those next incidents are, too.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_05: So there's multi-uses there.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_05: But I think sometimes ICs feel this pressure.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, I need to assign them just because they're here.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_05: And and we want to advise you to get your foot off the accelerator a little bit on that.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_05: Because if you don't need them, don't assign them.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_05: If you don't need them, hold them in level one staging until you do, not just get them out of their truck for the sake of having them stretch their legs, so to speak.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_04: Assign the companies to solve the problem, whatever that takes in the hot zone, and then reinforce them with that next layer of on deck.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_04: And, you know, oftentimes we get that question well, is one one on deck company enough?
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_04: And it's like, absolutely not.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_04: I can't give you an answer to when it is.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_04: In this case, the incident's winding down.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_04: And yeah, there's two companies working, there's two companies on deck, and it was clearly winding down.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_04: Fire control and searches were clear, they were doing some mop-up or checking for extension.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I don't need to expand that further.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_04: But if the transmission was ladder 25, we're on the second floor, we have extension into the walls.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_04: Will you send me another company with a hose line?
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_04: Then I'm gonna deploy that on-deck company, but I'm also gonna tell command, send me two more on-deck companies because ladder 25.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_04: How do you work through that process?
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_04: Well, how long have they been inside there?
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_04: How long can they work inside there?
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_04: How long is it gonna take them to get a new bottle?
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_04: And then how many resources do I have available right now so that I can deploy for whatever the problem is, first and foremost, on deck being the writ team, and then to do whatever other assignment we need to do, which oftentimes, as we know, signing a company to solve the problem helps us avoid having Maydays.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_05: All right.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_05: Anything else on this incident, Josh, before we wrap it?
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_04: No, I think just yeah, kudos to the Coleraine Township Fire Department and to all the departments in Hamilton County that are, you know, continue to strive and work towards operating as one because there might be 38 fire departments in the county, but when the bell rings and you pull up in an incident, Mrs.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_04: Smith doesn't care.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_04: We operate as one to solve the problem and provide that service.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_04: Period.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_04: That's that's it.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_05: Well, good work.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_05: And I think we talked about earlier those relationships.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_05: That that isn't one and done.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_05: That isn't that isn't just you're gonna train together once a year.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_05: That is a continuous cultivation of those relationships and communications and training and then actually working with each other.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_05: And we always used to say it's better to meet your mutual aid partner during the day than three o'clock in the morning in somebody's front yard.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_05: So as much as you can train together, work together, I know you guys have a great training consortium there in Hamilton County as well.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_05: So you're training on other things, not just command, but it's uh multidisciplinary too.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_05: That's impressive.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_05: That's what people should be working toward.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, there's a whole command training group that does, you know, the strategic and division ops and and the workshops and you know, all of that piece.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_04: And then there's a whole group that is doing the task and tactical training, and it's getting everybody closer and closer to being on the same team just because we're we're we are talking to each other and saying, hey, this is what we're doing, this is the expectation.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_04: And then it's actually made it a lot easier to have that discussion of, hey, we don't do that.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_04: You you've had the training, we went over the expectations, you signed off on these policies, and we don't do that, we do this.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_04: And it just it just makes that easier and can take some of the emotion out.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_04: Like if it if if you have to be angry about it, you're probably not gonna follow anything.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_05: And that wraps up this V Shifter podcast.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_05: We want to thank you very much for listening.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_05: Make sure to like and subscribe if you haven't already and tell your friends.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_05: We'll talk to you again next week on V Shifter.